The original 2 tenths of an inch should have been more than acceptable for a bicycle stem. I've gas welded 4130 aircraft tube frames to .3 tolerance and never failed an FAA airframe alignment inspection. Good on you Mr. Brodie.
I just brazed a new bar clamp onto a Kona Velocity quill. stem that I shortened...and I completely eyeballed the orientation, not even factoring in brazing distortion, and I can't imagine my accuracy is even close to Paul's...and if its off, you would never know riding or even looking at it 🤷♂
I have frequented a dozen German internet forums over the years, and there are always a bullying group of members who try to put others down. UK is right up there, too
Funny you say that, I was watching a youtube show on Military Tank restorations and they pointed out that German production was much slower than the Allies because over-complication, part complexity and overly strict tolerances, so much so it created shortages that affected their ability to fight (also didn't help that they also used forced labor)
0.2 degrees error over 630mm bar length would be 1.1mm at the bar ends, one side positive and one side negative. As you so diplomatically pointed out, your customers setup was meaningless for detecting errors of that small a magnitude. Kudos to you for taking the high road dealing with this fellow and producing such high quality work.
I'm not going to check your math but thanks for adding in that info, I agree 1.1mm at each end is pretty minimal, I'd guess most bikes are riding around with that much or more.
I got the same result and came here to say that, so instead I'll just say I confirmed this (i.e., the difference from one end to the other would be just slightly more than 2mm).
Erik, this is the first time in my life that I have had curly hair, and it might not last, so I am going to take advantage of it. That's what Chemo can do to a guy like me....
A big box carpenters' level in a mechanics vice on a wooden work bench, that's cutting-edge precision there. Sadly, Alex sees nothing wrong with his setup.
Indeed he does not. Even sent a photo trying to prove his argument but the offset bubble on a very low precision level discredits him completely and that is entirely apart from his terrible setup. Heavy sigh!
Lol. Retired aircraft QA tech here. If ANYONE tried to complain about a part we made, with a level, ON PAINT, IN A VISE, well.... if it was an employee, they would be fired on the spot. Period. If it was a customer............. give them a replacement, go away now, never come back.
I loved the eyeroll when you hit 3thou and called it good. Originally Alex bar would have been up 1mm and down 1mm on the other end on a 60cm handle bar. Probably get that error on your grips🙄. Some people are never happy. Had Alex installed it in his bike he would have never known.
Hi Paul. You should start an auction for the Re-aligned stem. you will probably be very surprised as to what people will bid to own one of the last Brodie stems. Love your work and your videos. Merry Xmas Paul and Mitch.
I was sent to H-D factory for training and a factory tour in the mid 70's and that's exactly how they corrected frame alignment after welding the frames :)
2:38 Alex's measurement ASSUMES his handlebars that are in his measurement setup are perfectly aligned in all 4 bends. He also assumes the quill stem top face is perpendicular. Most people would try some variables like other bars etc.
I have an aluminum threadless Answer stem from (probably) the late 90's, it has a visible misalignment rightward. To get the handlebar perpendicular to the front wheel the stem is about 91° from the right side of the bar and 89° from the left Edit: I'm pretty sure I came from the return bin at Synchros when they were in Richmond, works great
This is a tricky one, since it is almost entirely in the customer's head. Most people have no idea how good or bad (usually bad) their frames, stems, forks really are, and that ignorance is bliss. The second you measure it, then you are done for. Even a CNC's stem is going to be only marginally better than yours. The bend on the bar is most likely out a mm or more on each end. I think you were right to take it back rather than fight the customer, but I also agree that stem is "to an acceptable standard".
Alex clearly doesn’t understand how to measure things. Metrology is a well established study and practice which Alex hasn’t studied or practiced! Regardless your story of this stem is instructive for anyone watching. In solidarity I’m wearing my “It’s Milling Time” t-shirt today!
Hey Paul, if Alex doesn’t want that stem anymore, can I buy it please? It’d be pretty special to be the proud owner of the only Brodie stem to receive extra special alignment treatment in 39 years!
Great video. I’d happily buy that stem, 1.1mm off or not. I wonder what Alex’s method is for aligning his stem to his front wheel? Surely not the usual squint and “yeah, that looks good, let’s go ride” method.
I would've been impressed if you had gone 40 years with no returns😮. I think that fine piece of Brodie Engineering needs to be visible in every video going forward. Thank you for taking the time to film, edit and upload so others can watch and learn.
Just woke up at 3am here in Japan and started my day watching Paul and Mitch! Before making custom bicycle frames, I learned a lot from a tailor on how to take measurements to make a suit. He told me that is really very hard to find someone with both shoulders in the same size, in my opinion, 0.2 degrees will not do any difference in the fit position.
I've got numerous brand name aluminium handlebars that are bend differently each side, some are 12mm height difference when on full lock with grips touching the top tube
That's life, Paul. Amazing to see the strength in the stem. You should frame it and put it on the workshop wall. Like a first dollar made kind of a thing. All the very best to you and Mitch.
I won't comment on anyone's expectations of perfection, but I suspect a lot of alignment issues could be found were one to properly measure components of any given bicycle. Especially frames and forks, and they still ride just fine. Staying together is more important.
If you have to use instruments to detect the misalignment, it's good enough for a bike. I raced a whole season with a slightly bent handlebar and didn't notice until I took the bar off and discovered it didn't sit flat on the bench. People are more complicated than machines
Jonathon, it's true! People can be complicated, and sometimes fussy too... And peoples bodies are rarely symmetrical and almost never perfect. Thanks for commenting!
My first thought "the guy is measuring paint" lol Makes you wonder how uniform thickness of paint job is? Then if he noticed something off while riding it, how accurate are his handlebars? On the other hand, .0135" seems a lot of tilt in 4". That translates to .088" over the length of 26". So less than 1/10 of an inch difference between the ends of the handlebars. He just might feel it... maybe. But it does go to show you about checking things for straightness after welding or brazing should be part of the program. Building mass spectrometers back in the 80's had some crazy specs we had to adhere to. :)
Hallo Paul, ich habe das gerade erst gesehen. Die Geschichte ist einfach nur zum fremd schämen. Peinlich vor allem die öffentliche Diskussion darüber in einem Forum. Danke für eure tollen Videos. Immer wieder ein Genuss, dir über die Schulter zu sehen. Alles Gute!
Mr. Brodie, you are the man. Tolerance and degrees, predetermined by the fabricator are dialed in and if a customer isn't pleased, to quote Kurt Vonnegut, "Go take a flying '"f" at a rolling donut." Makes me sad that you even bothered to respond, but well played on your part. You don't need to defend your work. I rarely engage on this level, but "F" that guy. It's not a fighter jet, it's a bike stem...a hand crafted beautiful bike stem from a master of his craft.. Go Paul and Mitch, keep moving forward.
Would say……well, you said it all Paul. In fact ,if I were to comment on this,it would be along the lines of NO TWO THINGS are ‘identical’. Any two things made by hand,using judgement and having a standard to work within will differ ,when measured to a minute detail. On the other hand Products ‘manufactured’ on a large scale will ALSO work within accepted,desired tolerances. But if any product is measured to minute detail they will differ also. Suppose ,as you say ‘what is acceptable?’ Your work is ,to my mind,as good as it gets!
Alex probably forgot to mention he's a 240 lbs one-armed Ironman. Pure speculation, but a solid hypothesis. I imagine it was rider-induced misalignment. ...or you messed up and he caught a minor mistake after 40 years of admirable work.
Nice to see you again mr Paul……remember there’s always a rotten apple in the barrel…one bad apple spoils the whole bushel….happy holidays mr Paul…to you and your loves ones….
"Hi, I'm looking for some hand made bicycle parts..." "Yeah I make those, by hand." "Okay I'll take some... hey these aren't exactly perfectly perfect, like if they were made by a CNC robot!?!?" "Yeah, they're hand made..."
Bless his heart. Lord knows that a bicycles handlebars have to be within such a tight tolerance. Otherwise the angle of their dangle would be aeronautically impeding to such a degree to cause such a decree.
What with the angle of the dangle being in direct proportion to the mass of the ass, which is unknown here as Alex hasn't provided his weight, I would say that there is somewhat of an inverse proportion relating to the decree per degree, or fraction thereof...
I was going to say 1/4 inch on the ends of the bars is fine. the head tube, stem alignment to the wheel, and handle bar could all be a factor. It might be possible for a machinist level and surface plate setup to show that tiny 0.2 degree difference but we are splitting hairs 😂
There's more than 4mm of 'squish' in bar grips. If you're riding (off road) the bars are moving all over the place; up, down, left, right. Human anatomies are not perfectly symmetrical either. Even the smoothest of tarmac paved roads are far from even and level. Also: what is the accuracy of a DIY spirit level?
German´s are superior when it comes to precision. No BS, just German´s bein German.... What´s not to like And agree with Brodie at the same time, awesome builder and gentleman
Hi Paul, for completeness next time also measure the vertical clamp for squareness to the head. That said i doubt any appreciable difference will be seen. Cheers!
damn, only one Alex in 39 years? but fyi, if i saw a complaint about your work on an internet post, i would pay no mind…btw….i am pretty sure my arm alignment is out by at least that much, so i might just buy it: )
There are other things to consider too with how it was measured with the spirit level, such as if the stem tube was cut perfectly square? It's really such an insignificant amount I don't know why it would matter, granted it's going to be worse the longer the bars are. It would have been interesting to see a long tube mounted as a handlebar would be and measure the runout at the ends, what would .0003 translate to at the bar end?
In addition to bikes, I also have an interest in astrology. When you do a reading, you often need to determine the angles between planetary bodies. The level of precision of this task is referred to as an "orb". 0.2° works out to 12 minutes of arc, which is a completely miniscule deviation, even for objects out in the depths of space.
Im dealing with a shop that sold me defective pedals ,The wrong grease was used and it damaged the o rings in the pedals ,And the grip tape used was spray glued to the pedals and not attached the normal way .They are a bespoke pedal from Germany that use laminated wood for the body.
Hello Paul, hello Mitch, this story makes me smile....I'm German, my hobby is MTB since decades and some Germans take it more than serious. When I buy something handmade, i have to thing about tolerance. In your case people think , there could be none, cause it's done by Paul. In Germany you are iconic for your stuff. Therefore people expact 0 degree. I think, refunding was a good deal for you and the customer. But it's still a handmade stem an it would have worked pretty well and reliable. If he would have placed a steelbar, he would have had corrected it within seconds....for me no reason to make such a trouble.
It is multiplied, but still not huge. 0.5 degree misalignment would result in a height difference of "800mm * tan 0.5°" which is ca. 7mm. For 0.2 degree misalignment, it's then only 2.8mm difference between the two bar ends.
Great job on explaining what was going on and I think Alex just might be a whiner of the first degree. 4 mils over a 600 mil handlebar? I bet he could not even feel the difference.
No dial indicators or precision set-up blocks? If there seemed to be a problem w/ squaring it up on the bike, I’d clamp the quill stem into a v-block set vertically on the mill table, or aliened w/ the mill’s spindle. You surely have a piece of tubing or two that doesn’t hop around too much when you roll it across a surface plate, or whatever you use for a reference surface - that would be your handlebar @ whatever width your smooth roller happens to be. Then more or less center the spindle over the quill stem & sweep a perpendicular (horizontal) plane w/ an indicator on an extension rod clamped onto the spindle w/ a collet. ez-pz Then just for fun, you might clock the “handlebar” once or twice to see what that does (not much if it’s a smooth roller, right?) All that might seem a little involved, but if you have the v-block & indicator it’s no more so than what you did, & it’s a _demonstrably_ accurate process that can be followed with the camera, etc - & if your handlebar is long enough there won’t be any (apparently) tedious calculations of total error, just read the indicator. This method of checking might also suggest an alternate method of jigging the pieces & constraining movement as you tack them together, but I’m no bike builder, just a cranky old toolmaker. Frankly, I was as surprised by the process used to check it as by the fact that it was returned to begin with. (shrug)
Hi Paul less than a third of a degree, Owe my lord to the Court's with yeah LOL, I would be delighted to have that on my bike. If it was made by Robots would he have sent it back???
Seems a bit nit-picky, but nothing is more frustrating than being told about how everyone else accepts the error or that it never happens. I've had several products that were defective and the manufacturer's response was to say that it never happened before. One was a bad weld on a set of headers that took 12 hours to instal. I used a mechanic's stethoscope to locate the exhaust leak after the installation and it was at the collector where the tubes joined. They refused to do anything about it because it had never happened before.
I used to work with some Germans in high-end cycle distribution. They almost bankrupted their supplier (a very high-end frame brand) by returning anything which did not match EXACTLY to the pre-production approval sample. These frames were colour anodised, so many frames were returned for the colour being just slightly different to the initial pre-prod sample - when most us understand full well that coloured anodising never has perfect batch consistency. Well, the conclusion to my story is that due to poor descision making by these Germans, the entire supply chain went bankrupt. Alex may well be one of the Germans who I used to work with!
Good story David. There is a fine line between being reasonable and unreasonable, and knowing where the balance is is a good thing, I believe. Being nit-picky and hurting your supplier financially does not sound good to me at all...
@@paulbrodie It would seem that being nit-picky is a sport in Germany! Another thing I learned whilst working with Germans is that "German efficiency" is a myth. So, I wound up working for a related carbon bike frame brand. It was British financed, German designed, managed and operated (yes, by the very same nit-picky ones) and Taiwanese produced. We were pioneers in the industry; the world's first exclusivly carbon frame brand which was distributed globaly, and the originator of the modern tapered steerer. By 2005 we had a range of road trames. TT/Tri models and an XC MTB frame - all very innovative and high quality. We worked with a well known (in Germany) freelance cycle-industry technical consultant who insisted that each individual frameset must be checked in Germany for Stiffness-To-Weight and the specific result logged against the serial number and maintained on a database for reasons of QC accountability for insurance liability and warranty reasons - despite no other comparable frame brand doing this. The consultant provided the testing equipment necessary, at 30,000 Euros. The testing ended up taking a minimum of 45 mins per frameset, as the proceedures had to be carried out three times and the varying results averaged to give specific values for the record. This meant that one staff member in Germany did nothing but STW testing, so the cost was 30,000 Euro initially for test rig, and then about 3,000 Euro per month as additional internal labour costs. Can you guess what happened to that brand? Yup, bankrupt as well. There were other serious issues contributing to the business failure, mostly related to poor descision making in Germany. It was often a case of noses being bitten off to spite faces, and ridiculous petty grievances - just as with poor Alex, who has (quite rightly) been publicly embarassed and now has no stem! I'm not telling the name of the failed UK/D/TW carbon frame brand. Can anyone guess?
David, thanks for the continuation of that story. It is hard to be in business, even harder to be in the Bicycle Business, but still so many people and companies have a desire to make it in the Bike Biz. I know it's easy to make the Assumption that because bicycles often have a high retail value, there is a Lot of money to be made! Which is not true... I do not know which company you were associated with, sorry..
@@paulbrodie An old joke: "How does one come out of the cycle-industry with £10M? Go in with £40M..." (-: I've been there and seen it first hand at brand, distribution and retail level. All of the many cycle trade and industry businesses I've worked for, and with, failed - and not always because of me!!! The cycle industry is a great way to lose serious amounts of money, and very, very few ever get rich from it. Most don't manage to break even in the long run, but it can be fun trying. Being settled and contented, and remaining enthusiastic, as you seem to be, is a great outcome. Congratulations on being a fellow cycle-industry survivor. Someone might read this and guess the brand I spoke of earlier - but I'm never telling!
Yes, I have heard that joke for sure! I did have a lot of tough years in the bicycle biz, but I do feel fortunate to be in my present situation. We enjoy making videos, and creating or fixing bicycles, motorcycles, and other assorted projects. Never bored...
To start with Mr. Brodie, I have been a huge fan of your Industrial Art since the early 90s and I have enjoyed a few of your products. Having said that, I have also worked in Aviation working with customers....and.... Germans? do expect sub-micron precision for everything. Its a bit of a head scratcher at times because things like bike stems .... sub 1 degree deviation? Is not easily discernible by human touch, and is easily ignored by most.... just, well, just not by folks like Sheldon Cooper of Big Bang Theory or Germans apparently.
I have no doubt it's physical straight. Somethings can appear twisted bowed or crooked. I didn't even know what that was for until several minutes in. Forgive my ignorance
That guy is a trip. Obsessed with making perfect bottom brackets that get shoved into highly imperfect carbon frames with imperfect crank and pedal axles. There is a point where good enough, is good enough.
I would love to see why the spirit level was so off…. Maybe the end were not perfectly 90 where he tried to rest the level….? Just to try to replicate the error…. Heheh
When I saw the first email from Alex, with his photos of the spirit level, I just knew I wanted to give him a refund, and Not to get into any sort of discussion... His method was very questionable, and I was happy to get the stem back. Thanks for watching...
It was never misaligned, its aligned within tolerance. It's not that this guy has an actual genuine complaint, he just wants to lecture someone about some supposed mistakes.
Don’t you think the distortion on the head tube when brazed to the riser stem tube versus the miter cut end would make difference in measurement and not be an actual alignment thing whatsoever?
You could analyze and theorize for quite a while. Also, the direction of the fillet braze flow has an effect on alignment; I know that from working on frames...
Yes, that is a very good observation / question... There have been a lot of comments on body shapes and dimensions. Basically no one has a perfect body that is completely proportional... one arm longer, etc. Thanks for watching and commenting....
You did a damn nice job brazing that up if it only pulled 14thou. I’ve seen people weld/braze things that pulled all kinds of crooked. That guy needs to get a life. Refunding and getting him down the road was the right call. He’s just one of those people who will always find something to complain about no matter what you do. I mean who the hell stands at a bench vise with a bubble level after buying a bicycle part? Did he really think he was going to feel that 14 thousands while he was sitting on the thing pushing on the pedals? 😂
tan (.2007°) x 330 mm = 1.15595 mm = 0.04551 in. (not 4mm as Alex claims) A precision machinist level used for leveling machine tools typically are 6 in, 12 in, 15 in and 16 in. They are very accurate, but not as accurate as your mill over the small travel that you used to come up with the .014 in. difference. But it is highly unlikely that the 660 mm level he used was a precision machinist level, that would be very expensive, if they made such an animal. My guess is that It was probably a big box store metric carpenter level and is not even close to being as accurate. In my humble opinion I would classify 0.2° as excellent, 0.5° good, 1.0° box store bicycle. Out of alignment to me would be a few or more degrees that happened when crashing a bike. Out of tolerance should have been the term he used. As a mechanical engineer and small technical college teacher this is just my humble opinion. Great work Paul! I sure the stem will sell very fast, now that is has a history and you went the extra mile to pull it into a very close tolerance (superior) that would be unnecessary for a bicycle. You do excellent work my friend. Thanks!
Thank you. A very nice comment. I am going to mount the stem on a plaque, and call it Art. It will then sell for much more money, it will be a "Stem with a Story".. Happy Holidays :)
Paul, no matter how skilled you are; it's impossible to satisfy every customer. Nothing more, nothing less. I learned this being self employed for more than 26 years. And your skill level is on Mars... I have troubles watching this video or It's embarrassing to me. Frankly; You shouldn't do this. We are fussing about a handmade stem misalignment of 0,2 degrees next to your body of work. Alex should watch all your videos and then decide to complain. @Alex, I can understand that this stem is maybe not to your standards, but you should consider the way it was made and the man who made it. Go buy Shimano next time; accurate and no such legacy. Paul, all the best wishes from my side Stay safe and be happy! Best, Job
I sincerely hope Paul's only intention in making this video was educational (it was) and that it would have been released no matter what the outcome. There are a lot of people picking on Alex in the comments. His method of measurement told him something was off, so in his mind, something was off. So he did what consumers should do, contact the seller of the item in question. Just because Alex isn't an engineer or machinist doesn't disqualify him from questioning the quality of the product he received.
I think I’ve just watched a “Canadian F*** You” 😂
Well, that's one way of looking at it....
That’s right
Perfecto.
🐻
The original 2 tenths of an inch should have been more than acceptable for a bicycle stem. I've gas welded 4130 aircraft tube frames to .3 tolerance and never failed an FAA airframe alignment inspection. Good on you Mr. Brodie.
Thank you. Happy Holidays!
I just brazed a new bar clamp onto a Kona Velocity quill. stem that I shortened...and I completely eyeballed the orientation, not even factoring in brazing distortion, and I can't imagine my accuracy is even close to Paul's...and if its off, you would never know riding or even looking at it 🤷♂
Sometimes eyeballing can be very good!
Two tenths of a degree. Really tiny!
Alex confirming the cultural stereotype about Germans with rigid objects jammed in their annular sections.
I have frequented a dozen German internet forums over the years, and there are always a bullying group of members who try to put others down. UK is right up there, too
Funny you say that, I was watching a youtube show on Military Tank restorations and they pointed out that German production was much slower than the Allies because over-complication, part complexity and overly strict tolerances, so much so it created shortages that affected their ability to fight (also didn't help that they also used forced labor)
0.2 degrees error over 630mm bar length would be 1.1mm at the bar ends, one side positive and one side negative. As you so diplomatically pointed out, your customers setup was meaningless for detecting errors of that small a magnitude. Kudos to you for taking the high road dealing with this fellow and producing such high quality work.
I'm not going to check your math but thanks for adding in that info, I agree 1.1mm at each end is pretty minimal, I'd guess most bikes are riding around with that much or more.
Thanks Scott. Appreciate your comment :)
I got the same result and came here to say that, so instead I'll just say I confirmed this (i.e., the difference from one end to the other would be just slightly more than 2mm).
2mm skew on the bar. It's a joke of an error. The bar flexes more when in actual use. The bar itself isn't that straight.
Thank you Paul and Mitch and of course co-starring Paul's hair.
My hair really has gone crazy...
oh.. that was a hair? i thought it was a cat...lol (^_^)
Get a haircut, son.
Erik, this is the first time in my life that I have had curly hair, and it might not last, so I am going to take advantage of it. That's what Chemo can do to a guy like me....
@@paulbrodie I'm sorry. I didn't know you had Chemo
A big box carpenters' level in a mechanics vice on a wooden work bench, that's cutting-edge precision there. Sadly, Alex sees nothing wrong with his setup.
Indeed he does not. Even sent a photo trying to prove his argument but the offset bubble on a very low precision level discredits him completely and that is entirely apart from his terrible setup. Heavy sigh!
Lol. Retired aircraft QA tech here. If ANYONE tried to complain about a part we made, with a level, ON PAINT, IN A VISE, well.... if it was an employee, they would be fired on the spot. Period. If it was a customer............. give them a replacement, go away now, never come back.
Alex's wife must have seen the card statement. Suddenly it had to go back due to "misalignment."
That's one weird story. But a story nonetheless. This stem should be better off in the hands of someone who understands its value.
I agree. Thanks for commenting...
I like how you didn't prescribe what is really right or wrong, just what it really is, no bs.
Thanks Bruce. I just wanted to tell a story.
I loved the eyeroll when you hit 3thou and called it good.
Originally Alex bar would have been up 1mm and down 1mm on the other end on a 60cm handle bar. Probably get that error on your grips🙄.
Some people are never happy. Had Alex installed it in his bike he would have never known.
I did enjoy making that video. felt like I had something to say!
Yes, but...but...he could have fallen over!
Hi Paul. You should start an auction for the Re-aligned stem. you will probably be very surprised as to what people will bid to own one of the last Brodie stems. Love your work and your videos. Merry Xmas Paul and Mitch.
Yes, I am going to mount it on a Plaque and call it Art.
It will be the "Stem with a Story"..
An Auction might be good.
Making art out of it is good. frame the stem, then auction it off and donate the profits. ;)
what a funny drama.@@paulbrodie
@@pixelstift
Stem sell research is a big thing of late...
I was sent to H-D factory for training and a factory tour in the mid 70's and that's exactly how they corrected frame alignment after welding the frames :)
It's just metal...
2:38 Alex's measurement ASSUMES his handlebars that are in his measurement setup are perfectly aligned in all 4 bends. He also assumes the quill stem top face is perpendicular.
Most people would try some variables like other bars etc.
for real, lol. He would have to use some precision ground rod for that, cause handlebars are massively out of whack compared to that.
I have an aluminum threadless Answer stem from (probably) the late 90's, it has a visible misalignment rightward. To get the handlebar perpendicular to the front wheel the stem is about 91° from the right side of the bar and 89° from the left
Edit: I'm pretty sure I came from the return bin at Synchros when they were in Richmond, works great
This is a tricky one, since it is almost entirely in the customer's head. Most people have no idea how good or bad (usually bad) their frames, stems, forks really are, and that ignorance is bliss. The second you measure it, then you are done for. Even a CNC's stem is going to be only marginally better than yours. The bend on the bar is most likely out a mm or more on each end. I think you were right to take it back rather than fight the customer, but I also agree that stem is "to an acceptable standard".
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Alex clearly doesn’t understand how to measure things. Metrology is a well established study and practice which Alex hasn’t studied or practiced!
Regardless your story of this stem is instructive for anyone watching.
In solidarity I’m wearing my “It’s Milling Time” t-shirt today!
Hey Paul, if Alex doesn’t want that stem anymore, can I buy it please?
It’d be pretty special to be the proud owner of the only Brodie stem to receive extra special alignment treatment in 39 years!
Being German myself, one word that came to mind is "Fremdscham". Keep it up Paul, love to see you take it with some good humour!
Also german here: in my mind the german word "pingelig" popped up.
The other German word to describe Alex that comes to mind is "korinthenkacker".
Jemand from the Germans hier eine Idee in welchem Forum das durchdiskutiert wurde?
Thanks, will do!
I frequent German forums, and there are always some guy(s) who are know-it-alls with overinflated ego's who bully the rest .
Made me double check the old trig geometry formulas. Thumbs up for that.
I did have to ask my friend Scott...
Same here. It's been decades.
😂 measuring alignment with a spirit level 😂
He's German enough said 😂😂🤘🤘
Actualy, we are using spirit levels for precision alignment… but different kind of them. Very sensitive and acurate. ie 0.02/m…
Just goes to prove that everything Paul makes is to the highest standard.
Great video. I’d happily buy that stem, 1.1mm off or not. I wonder what Alex’s method is for aligning his stem to his front wheel? Surely not the usual squint and “yeah, that looks good, let’s go ride” method.
I would've been impressed if you had gone 40 years with no returns😮. I think that fine piece of Brodie Engineering needs to be visible in every video going forward. Thank you for taking the time to film, edit and upload so others can watch and learn.
Well, what a difference one year makes!! Thanks for watching...
Just woke up at 3am here in Japan and started my day watching Paul and Mitch! Before making custom bicycle frames, I learned a lot from a tailor on how to take measurements to make a suit. He told me that is really very hard to find someone with both shoulders in the same size, in my opinion, 0.2 degrees will not do any difference in the fit position.
That's a very good point.. Thanks for commenting over there in Japan!
@@paulbrodie Thank you for 39 years making bicycles and never giving up. Thanks for the great camera man too, Mitch!
I've got numerous brand name aluminium handlebars that are bend differently each side, some are 12mm height difference when on full lock with grips touching the top tube
Thanks, Paul, for the metrology lesson and thanks, Alex, for the entertainment, both were much appreciated :)
That's life, Paul. Amazing to see the strength in the stem.
You should frame it and put it on the workshop wall. Like a first dollar made kind of a thing.
All the very best to you and Mitch.
That’s a great idea. Then every time you look at it you can say “That’s the only one anybody has complained about, and it’s perfect.”
Yes, it is going to get mounted on a Plaque... :)
You should put the stem up for auction now, it's famous!
Yes, I'm going to sell it at the Swap Meet next Sunday...
This is a very scientific solution to a problem that doesn't exist....
I won't comment on anyone's expectations of perfection, but I suspect a lot of alignment issues could be found were one to properly measure components of any given bicycle. Especially frames and forks, and they still ride just fine. Staying together is more important.
Yes, and our bodies are sure not perfect either. Are my arms exactly the same length? Probably Not...
If you have to use instruments to detect the misalignment, it's good enough for a bike. I raced a whole season with a slightly bent handlebar and didn't notice until I took the bar off and discovered it didn't sit flat on the bench.
People are more complicated than machines
Jonathon, it's true! People can be complicated, and sometimes fussy too... And peoples bodies are rarely symmetrical and almost never perfect. Thanks for commenting!
I would be very interested to know what the variance on the 6xx mm bar is from end to end!
Started machining in 1972. Manual to CNC, Alex got me laughing mine arse off lol!
Classy response
Thank you.
My first thought "the guy is measuring paint" lol Makes you wonder how uniform thickness of paint job is? Then if he noticed something off while riding it, how accurate are his handlebars? On the other hand, .0135" seems a lot of tilt in 4". That translates to .088" over the length of 26". So less than 1/10 of an inch difference between the ends of the handlebars. He just might feel it... maybe. But it does go to show you about checking things for straightness after welding or brazing should be part of the program. Building mass spectrometers back in the 80's had some crazy specs we had to adhere to. :)
well... Alex got your attention. That made him happy. 😄
You know the old saying: "There's one in every crowd".
“I’m not in the habit of aligning stems.” -GOAT
Hallo Paul, ich habe das gerade erst gesehen. Die Geschichte ist einfach nur zum fremd schämen. Peinlich vor allem die öffentliche Diskussion darüber in einem Forum. Danke für eure tollen Videos. Immer wieder ein Genuss, dir über die Schulter zu sehen. Alles Gute!
Mr. Brodie, you are the man. Tolerance and degrees, predetermined by the fabricator are dialed in and if a customer isn't pleased, to quote Kurt Vonnegut, "Go take a flying '"f" at a rolling donut." Makes me sad that you even bothered to respond, but well played on your part. You don't need to defend your work. I rarely engage on this level, but "F" that guy. It's not a fighter jet, it's a bike stem...a hand crafted beautiful bike stem from a master of his craft.. Go Paul and Mitch, keep moving forward.
Thanks for watching and commenting :)
Would say……well, you said it all Paul. In fact ,if I were to comment on this,it would be along the lines of NO TWO THINGS are ‘identical’. Any two things made by hand,using judgement and having a standard to work within will differ ,when measured to a minute detail. On the other hand Products ‘manufactured’ on a large scale will ALSO work within accepted,desired tolerances. But if any product is measured to minute detail they will differ also. Suppose ,as you say ‘what is acceptable?’ Your work is ,to my mind,as good as it gets!
Is this a gooseneck for a Rocket Ship heading to Mars? Or a Bicycle!
Decades of craftsmanship v trial by twitter. I know where I put my trust...
Welcome back to the Fluffy Hair Club, that's really awesome to see!
Alex probably forgot to mention he's a 240 lbs one-armed Ironman. Pure speculation, but a solid hypothesis.
I imagine it was rider-induced misalignment. ...or you messed up and he caught a minor mistake after 40 years of admirable work.
I have not met Alex. Have no idea of his "build". He's obviously fussy with dubious methods of checking alignment.. Thanks for commenting...
i wonder if he measured his own body ? my left arm is 2mm shorter in the winter, everything is moving all the time........
I think that I know that German chap, it's Alex, Alex Knaub. 😉
it's like watching William Dafoe making bikes. ❤
Happy Holidays guys
Thank you. Happy Holidays.
Nice to see you again mr Paul……remember there’s always a rotten apple in the barrel…one bad apple spoils the whole bushel….happy holidays mr Paul…to you and your loves ones….
"Hi, I'm looking for some hand made bicycle parts..."
"Yeah I make those, by hand."
"Okay I'll take some... hey these aren't exactly perfectly perfect, like if they were made by a CNC robot!?!?"
"Yeah, they're hand made..."
25 years in Bike business. No bike has ever been Perfect. Flex in every Bike. Brodie you are RIGHT.
Bless his heart. Lord knows that a bicycles handlebars have to be within such a tight tolerance. Otherwise the angle of their dangle would be aeronautically impeding to such a degree to cause such a decree.
Well said! Happy Holidays to you :)
@@paulbrodie
Thank you kindly. Very nice work sir. God bless happy holidays to you was well.
What with the angle of the dangle being in direct proportion to the mass of the ass, which is unknown here as Alex hasn't provided his weight, I would say that there is somewhat of an inverse proportion relating to the decree per degree, or fraction thereof...
I think you have that one figured out pretty good. Thanks for watching!
Smart to let him return the item. Thats a customer who will never be satisfied, and now has nothing to complain about...
I was going to say 1/4 inch on the ends of the bars is fine.
the head tube, stem alignment to the wheel, and handle bar could all be a factor.
It might be possible for a machinist level and surface plate setup to show that tiny 0.2 degree difference but we are splitting hairs 😂
There's more than 4mm of 'squish' in bar grips. If you're riding (off road) the bars are moving all over the place; up, down, left, right. Human anatomies are not perfectly symmetrical either. Even the smoothest of tarmac paved roads are far from even and level. Also: what is the accuracy of a DIY spirit level?
I like your comment. Thanks for commenting!
I'd rather rely on Paul's "eyecometer" than a spirit level even a German one🤔
German´s are superior when it comes to precision.
No BS, just German´s bein German.... What´s not to like
And agree with Brodie at the same time, awesome builder and gentleman
Thanks for commenting!
Hi Paul, for completeness next time also measure the vertical clamp for squareness to the head. That said i doubt any appreciable difference will be seen. Cheers!
damn, only one Alex in 39 years? but fyi, if i saw a complaint about your work on an internet post, i would pay no mind…btw….i am pretty sure my arm alignment is out by at least that much, so i might just buy it: )
There are other things to consider too with how it was measured with the spirit level, such as if the stem tube was cut perfectly square? It's really such an insignificant amount I don't know why it would matter, granted it's going to be worse the longer the bars are. It would have been interesting to see a long tube mounted as a handlebar would be and measure the runout at the ends, what would .0003 translate to at the bar end?
In addition to bikes, I also have an interest in astrology. When you do a reading, you often need to determine the angles between planetary bodies. The level of precision of this task is referred to as an "orb". 0.2° works out to 12 minutes of arc, which is a completely miniscule deviation, even for objects out in the depths of space.
I have the feeling that 0.2 could be a meme or something..
Hello from Beautiful British Columbia Canada 🇨🇦 😍 ❤️
Well Hello to you in Beautiful BC. :)
Im dealing with a shop that sold me defective pedals ,The wrong grease was used and it damaged the o rings in the pedals ,And the grip tape used was spray glued to the pedals and not attached the normal way .They are a bespoke pedal from Germany that use laminated wood for the body.
I heard they were just riding along when it happened.
Yes, "JRA" really is a Thing. It happens probably more than you might imagine....
39 years, that’s a really long time for not one single person to complain about something.
I know.... I know.... Thanks for watching and commenting!
The spirits told Alex it was out.
Imagine making a frame for this guy. For a joke send him back a stem from department store bike and make sure the box is rigged with a glitter bomb.
Too funny!
There’s always 1 in the village
Ad they are eating all of the crayons.
Looks good to me!
The Alex Stem is now very popular 😂😂
You might be right. I'm going to sell it at the Vintage Swap Meet next month...
Hello Paul, hello Mitch, this story makes me smile....I'm German, my hobby is MTB since decades and some Germans take it more than serious. When I buy something handmade, i have to thing about tolerance. In your case people think , there could be none, cause it's done by Paul. In Germany you are iconic for your stuff. Therefore people expact 0 degree. I think, refunding was a good deal for you and the customer. But it's still a handmade stem an it would have worked pretty well and reliable. If he would have placed a steelbar, he would have had corrected it within seconds....for me no reason to make such a trouble.
❤ no prob ... put it in a raffle maybe
A true gent as always. I hope Alex and the keyboard warriors learn from this 👍
“You’re papers are not in order!”
Wouldn't a slight misalignment of the stem be multiplied out at the ends of a 800mm bar?
It is multiplied, but still not huge. 0.5 degree misalignment would result in a height difference of "800mm * tan 0.5°" which is ca. 7mm.
For 0.2 degree misalignment, it's then only 2.8mm difference between the two bar ends.
Great job on explaining what was going on and I think Alex just might be a whiner of the first degree. 4 mils over a 600 mil handlebar? I bet he could not even feel the difference.
No dial indicators or precision set-up blocks?
If there seemed to be a problem w/ squaring it up on the bike, I’d clamp the quill stem into a v-block set vertically on the mill table, or aliened w/ the mill’s spindle. You surely have a piece of tubing or two that doesn’t hop around too much when you roll it across a surface plate, or whatever you use for a reference surface - that would be your handlebar @ whatever width your smooth roller happens to be.
Then more or less center the spindle over the quill stem & sweep a perpendicular (horizontal) plane w/ an indicator on an extension rod clamped onto the spindle w/ a collet.
ez-pz
Then just for fun, you might clock the “handlebar” once or twice to see what that does (not much if it’s a smooth roller, right?) All that might seem a little involved, but if you have the v-block & indicator it’s no more so than what you did, & it’s a _demonstrably_ accurate process that can be followed with the camera, etc - & if your handlebar is long enough there won’t be any (apparently) tedious calculations of total error, just read the indicator.
This method of checking might also suggest an alternate method of jigging the pieces & constraining movement as you tack them together, but I’m no bike builder, just a cranky old toolmaker.
Frankly, I was as surprised by the process used to check it as by the fact that it was returned to begin with.
(shrug)
Hi Paul less than a third of a degree, Owe my lord to the Court's with yeah LOL, I would be delighted to have that on my bike. If it was made by Robots would he have sent it back???
Seems a bit nit-picky, but nothing is more frustrating than being told about how everyone else accepts the error or that it never happens. I've had several products that were defective and the manufacturer's response was to say that it never happened before. One was a bad weld on a set of headers that took 12 hours to instal. I used a mechanic's stethoscope to locate the exhaust leak after the installation and it was at the collector where the tubes joined. They refused to do anything about it because it had never happened before.
I used to work with some Germans in high-end cycle distribution. They almost bankrupted their supplier (a very high-end frame brand) by returning anything which did not match EXACTLY to the pre-production approval sample. These frames were colour anodised, so many frames were returned for the colour being just slightly different to the initial pre-prod sample - when most us understand full well that coloured anodising never has perfect batch consistency. Well, the conclusion to my story is that due to poor descision making by these Germans, the entire supply chain went bankrupt. Alex may well be one of the Germans who I used to work with!
Good story David. There is a fine line between being reasonable and unreasonable, and knowing where the balance is is a good thing, I believe. Being nit-picky and hurting your supplier financially does not sound good to me at all...
@@paulbrodie It would seem that being nit-picky is a sport in Germany! Another thing I learned whilst working with Germans is that "German efficiency" is a myth. So, I wound up working for a related carbon bike frame brand. It was British financed, German designed, managed and operated (yes, by the very same nit-picky ones) and Taiwanese produced. We were pioneers in the industry; the world's first exclusivly carbon frame brand which was distributed globaly, and the originator of the modern tapered steerer. By 2005 we had a range of road trames. TT/Tri models and an XC MTB frame - all very innovative and high quality. We worked with a well known (in Germany) freelance cycle-industry technical consultant who insisted that each individual frameset must be checked in Germany for Stiffness-To-Weight and the specific result logged against the serial number and maintained on a database for reasons of QC accountability for insurance liability and warranty reasons - despite no other comparable frame brand doing this. The consultant provided the testing equipment necessary, at 30,000 Euros. The testing ended up taking a minimum of 45 mins per frameset, as the proceedures had to be carried out three times and the varying results averaged to give specific values for the record. This meant that one staff member in Germany did nothing but STW testing, so the cost was 30,000 Euro initially for test rig, and then about 3,000 Euro per month as additional internal labour costs. Can you guess what happened to that brand? Yup, bankrupt as well. There were other serious issues contributing to the business failure, mostly related to poor descision making in Germany. It was often a case of noses being bitten off to spite faces, and ridiculous petty grievances - just as with poor Alex, who has (quite rightly) been publicly embarassed and now has no stem! I'm not telling the name of the failed UK/D/TW carbon frame brand. Can anyone guess?
David, thanks for the continuation of that story. It is hard to be in business, even harder to be in the Bicycle Business, but still so many people and companies have a desire to make it in the Bike Biz. I know it's easy to make the Assumption that because bicycles often have a high retail value, there is a Lot of money to be made! Which is not true... I do not know which company you were associated with, sorry..
@@paulbrodie An old joke: "How does one come out of the cycle-industry with £10M? Go in with £40M..." (-: I've been there and seen it first hand at brand, distribution and retail level. All of the many cycle trade and industry businesses I've worked for, and with, failed - and not always because of me!!! The cycle industry is a great way to lose serious amounts of money, and very, very few ever get rich from it. Most don't manage to break even in the long run, but it can be fun trying. Being settled and contented, and remaining enthusiastic, as you seem to be, is a great outcome. Congratulations on being a fellow cycle-industry survivor. Someone might read this and guess the brand I spoke of earlier - but I'm never telling!
Yes, I have heard that joke for sure! I did have a lot of tough years in the bicycle biz, but I do feel fortunate to be in my present situation. We enjoy making videos, and creating or fixing bicycles, motorcycles, and other assorted projects. Never bored...
To start with Mr. Brodie, I have been a huge fan of your Industrial Art since the early 90s and I have enjoyed a few of your products. Having said that, I have also worked in Aviation working with customers....and.... Germans? do expect sub-micron precision for everything. Its a bit of a head scratcher at times because things like bike stems .... sub 1 degree deviation? Is not easily discernible by human touch, and is easily ignored by most.... just, well, just not by folks like Sheldon Cooper of Big Bang Theory or Germans apparently.
Some days you just have to win. Congratulations Paul. Alex, boo hoo hoo.
Could have just installed it in a mock up and looked to see if its straight.
If it looks crooked it’s crooked.
Can your eye see 0.2 degrees? Probably not....
I have no doubt it's physical straight.
Somethings can appear twisted bowed or crooked.
I didn't even know what that was for until several minutes in.
Forgive my ignorance
You are forgiven! Thanks for watching.. Happy Holidays! ....
We need to send the stem to Hambini for third party verification 😂
Hambini does not deserve to be involved. Too arrogant.
I have watched a few Hambini videos ... He is a character.
That guy is a trip. Obsessed with making perfect bottom brackets that get shoved into highly imperfect carbon frames with imperfect crank and pedal axles. There is a point where good enough, is good enough.
I wonder if he checks his shoes for alignment, geezers.
I would love to see why the spirit level was so off…. Maybe the end were not perfectly 90 where he tried to rest the level….? Just to try to replicate the error…. Heheh
When I saw the first email from Alex, with his photos of the spirit level, I just knew I wanted to give him a refund, and Not to get into any sort of discussion... His method was very questionable, and I was happy to get the stem back. Thanks for watching...
Alex from Germany: time for apologies. This is a nonsense complaint. You’d be blessed if your frame would be as straight as this stem.
Missed it by that much! :) 🤏
Lol , every machine i own with handle bars, has bent handle bars.
My friends always point it out. I dont care or notice i guess.
🍻👨🏻🏭🇨🇦
Too busy riding..
It was never misaligned, its aligned within tolerance.
It's not that this guy has an actual genuine complaint, he just wants to lecture someone about some supposed mistakes.
Don’t you think the distortion on the head tube when brazed to the riser stem tube versus the miter cut end would make difference in measurement and not be an actual alignment thing whatsoever?
You could analyze and theorize for quite a while. Also, the direction of the fillet braze flow has an effect on alignment; I know that from working on frames...
0.017” per inch, per degree. That’s the formula
As long as you have a small angle, yes.
Would love to know if Alex's 660mm bars were true in order to get the 4mm runout
Yes, that is a very good observation / question... There have been a lot of comments on body shapes and dimensions. Basically no one has a perfect body that is completely proportional... one arm longer, etc. Thanks for watching and commenting....
You did a damn nice job brazing that up if it only pulled 14thou. I’ve seen people weld/braze things that pulled all kinds of crooked. That guy needs to get a life. Refunding and getting him down the road was the right call. He’s just one of those people who will always find something to complain about no matter what you do. I mean who the hell stands at a bench vise with a bubble level after buying a bicycle part? Did he really think he was going to feel that 14 thousands while he was sitting on the thing pushing on the pedals? 😂
Thanks Dustyn. I agree with you completely...
tan (.2007°) x 330 mm = 1.15595 mm = 0.04551 in. (not 4mm as Alex claims) A precision machinist level used for leveling machine tools typically are 6 in, 12 in, 15 in and 16 in. They are very accurate, but not as accurate as your mill over the small travel that you used to come up with the .014 in. difference. But it is highly unlikely that the 660 mm level he used was a precision machinist level, that would be very expensive, if they made such an animal. My guess is that It was probably a big box store metric carpenter level and is not even close to being as accurate. In my humble opinion I would classify 0.2° as excellent, 0.5° good, 1.0° box store bicycle. Out of alignment to me would be a few or more degrees that happened when crashing a bike. Out of tolerance should have been the term he used. As a mechanical engineer and small technical college teacher this is just my humble opinion. Great work Paul! I sure the stem will sell very fast, now that is has a history and you went the extra mile to pull it into a very close tolerance (superior) that would be unnecessary for a bicycle. You do excellent work my friend. Thanks!
Thank you. A very nice comment. I am going to mount the stem on a plaque, and call it Art. It will then sell for much more money, it will be a "Stem with a Story".. Happy Holidays :)
Paul, no matter how skilled you are; it's impossible to satisfy every customer. Nothing more, nothing less. I learned this being self employed for more than 26 years. And your skill level is on Mars...
I have troubles watching this video or It's embarrassing to me. Frankly; You shouldn't do this. We are fussing about a handmade stem misalignment of 0,2 degrees next to your body of work.
Alex should watch all your videos and then decide to complain. @Alex, I can understand that this stem is maybe not to your standards, but you should consider the way it was made and the man who made it. Go buy Shimano next time; accurate and no such legacy. Paul, all the best wishes from my side Stay safe and be happy! Best, Job
😂not been watching for a while, who's the new hairy Guy?
Hi, I'm Paul Brodie...
I sincerely hope Paul's only intention in making this video was educational (it was) and that it would have been released no matter what the outcome.
There are a lot of people picking on Alex in the comments. His method of measurement told him something was off, so in his mind, something was off. So he did what consumers should do, contact the seller of the item in question. Just because Alex isn't an engineer or machinist doesn't disqualify him from questioning the quality of the product he received.
As it goes, I keep thinking that you look like Lou Reed.
You might be right. I do not know...
With customers like this I ask what level of neurosis are we working at!!