Left, right, left, right. left, right. When theres a whip *whip cracks* Theres a way.A crack on the back means we're gonna march. We're gonna march all day and night and more.
We don't wanna go to war today! But the Lord of the Lash says "nay nay nay!" We're gonna march all day, all day, all day! Where there's a whip there's a way!
From what I remember - both orcs and trolls are mockeries of the fair creations of the world - orcs are corrupt mockeries of elves and trolls - of ents. Silmarillion says the first orcs were elves that were kidnapped and corrupted Morgoth. LotR also mentions this.
Trolls and ents share many similar characteristics. But obviously, like elfs-orcs, the treant-trolls were twisted beyond recognition. And who knows, maybe that's where the entwives disappeared.
I never knew goblins and orcs were the same race. I remember I played Warhammer Fantasy Battle, and my team was Orcs and Goblins. This was back in the nineties :-)
In the Silmarillion Tolkein was pretty clear about where the orcs came from and that Morgoth tormented captured elves to turn them into orcs, and that this was his worst most perverted deed in the eyes of Illuvatar. He even quotes the end of that particular passage at the end of the video around 6:22.
The key here is that it's only clear in the published Silmarillion. Tolkien never settled on any option for long and he hesitated between the Men and Elves options regarding Orcs' origins but his son chose the latter because it was more simple to use in the chronology. If you read The History of Middle Earth you'll see how Tolkien's thougts on the matter evolved and how he tended to prefer the human option to the Elvish option at the end of his life but didn't get the time (or courage since it required many complicated changes) to modify his work accordingly.
I thought it would be cool if Tolkien made books about some of the other races or peoples of Middle Earth like the Easterlings, I want to know what it would be like to live in the east with all those huge Oliphants roaming around, or the Orcs, what would it be like in an Orc city like Minis Morgul, what about the Southrons or the Corsairs.
Not very nice, to put it lightly. That's why Tolkien didn't waste time writing detailed descriptions of orc reproduction, or life as a tortured slave in Angband. He was, naturally, repulsed by the very thought,, and would have found the modern morbid fascination with such unpleasant topics (fed by such vile creations as Game of Thrones) to be itself repulsive.
@@TomorrowWeLive pity, he must have conflated wanting to know about the darkness of the world with wanting to celebrate it. They need not be the same thing .
Huge props to MasterBombadillo for saving me a lot of time correcting people in the comments. Please keep in mind that the Silmarillion is not the only source of information for Tolkien's world.
I don't think this adds to ignorance. So much of the posthumously published materials contradict each other, because Tolkien didn't make up his mind yet, or because he changed his mind, or because he didn't had the time yet to revise his stories to get them in line with his newer views, and this video accounts for that fact. This is the case with the Silmarillion, which talks about corrupted Elves as the sole origin of Orcs, while Unfinished Tales talks about Men as being the sole source of those creatures. And in HoME we read even different stuff. Also, there's the fact that many of those theories are presented as theories from within the universe itself. In the Silmarillion we read "it is held true", while in Unfinished Tales we read "the Eldar answered". Not in many places do we get the thoughts of Tolkien himself about the matter. Other theories include sentient beasts, made of stone and slime, fallen Maiar... The first two did get dropped though, not sure about the latter.
I've always leaned towards orcs being corrupted elves, mostly because of the convo between Shagrat and Gorbag (might have been two unnamed orcs a bit later on) where one of them mentions the great darkness. That was in the second age, ending with the last alliance, iirc. I think that implies that orcs are immortal, like the elves, and won't die of old age. Be neat to find an orc that was around before the War of Wrath...
I love the art in this video! I would also like to point out that in The Silmarillion it says Orcs were Elves that were corrupted and tortured, also in The Fellowship of the ring (movie, not sure about the book because I haven't finished reading it yet) Sauruman tells the Uruk-Hai that Orcs used to be Elves, though the movies and books do differ a lot.
I always like to think that the orcs survive through out the 4th age and where just hiding and waiting because we have seen that orcs can command themselves with the right leader like Bolg Azog and the great Goblin so I would like to think they lived through the 4th age
Isn't there a line in The Hobbit stating that goblins are smaller cousins of the orcs? (I'm not trying to be nit-picky, I really enjoy these videos, you're doing good work here!)
Ok, I found a pretty good explanation of it, Tolkien decided between publishing The Hobbit and LOTR that goblin brought to mind too many of the older folk tale images. Also, as a linguist he felt that goblin, being a Latin derived word, didn't belong in his world, which borrows so heavily from Anglo-Saxon histories.
The quote at the end is probably the most impactful and representative of the fallacy of evil. And as the Silmarillion points out, it is said that men, and therefore orcs "would stray, often."
You meant this quote? “Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits’ form of the name given at that time to these creatures ...” - The Hobbit preface However, we can see the usage of the word "goblin" even for the larger Orcs in LotR. These are two quotes about Saruman's Uruk-hai being called goblins. “There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands.” - TTT Chapter 1 “Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen."- TTT Chapter 3
Orcs also loved to sing. And from the few times they had we got some nice hits like "When Theres a Whip Theres a Way", "Fifteen Birds in Five Fir Trees", and "Down Down to Goblin Town"
Movie lore creeping in there. The Uruk-hai, in the books, are created by Sauron as an improvement over the original orc strains. They're taller, stronger, and able to act in daylight without handicap. In Black Speech their name means 'orc-men'. The creatures that Saurman bred were half-orcs, a foul union of orcs and likely the Dunlendings. While it is likely that Saruman had Uruk-hai serving him since the strain spread far beyond Mordor during Sauron's absence, the armies that attacked Helm's Deep were an admixture of orc breeds and Dunlendings, not the cohesive Uruk-hai legions seen in the film.
What you are saying is partially true as well : Uruk-hai means "Orc folk" not "Orc-men" Tolkien explains at the end of the LotR that the name 'Uruk' being Black Speech evolved to apply only to the greatest and strongest Orcs (those we call Uruks which is only the english way of making 'Uruk' plural and is synonymous with Uruk-hai). As for Saruman using Uruks it's a certainty since they are mentionned several times in his armies (not least as the title of the chapter "The Uruk-hai"). It's unclear what the difference is between Orc-men and Uruk-haï since they are mentionned separately in Saruman's army while some think Uruks are a mix of Orcs and Men...
Carandini a funny thing about the movie lore on the uruks, and the lotr films in general... if you look at the designs of things like elven armor, or the ents, they strongly resemble games workshop's warhammer counterparts. and warhammer orcs reproduce asexually (they're basically part algae or lichen) by shedding spores that culminate in fully grown orcs emerging from sacs in the ground, ready to kill, not unlike how the birth of lurtz was shown in fotr. i suspected some sort of design collaboration was going on between new line/wingnut and games workshop the first time i saw lotr, and was not surprised to learn that gw had acquired the rights to produce lotr games.
I'm going to contest this claim. In the Helm's Deep chapter of Two Towers, as Aragorn is trying to parley with the orcs, they repeat three times, 'We are the Uruk-Hai,' along with various threats and boasts. It's clear that they considered themselves the Uruk-Hai, and the chapter of the same name describes how much larger, stronger, and more enduring they are than their lesser orcish brethren. From what I could tell in the Uruk-Hai chapter, there are at least 3 kinds of orcs in Middle Earth at the time of LOTR; the small, nimble mountain dwellers who are weak and fear sunlight, the orcs of Mordor, who are middling in terms of strength and sun resistance, and the Uruk-Hai, who are the paragon of both attributes. Whether the Uruk-Hai who served Saruman are a unique variant on the formula (a new genetic strand, shall we say) from the other Uruks, it's clear that he did have Uruk-Hai.
While there are no good orcs, If you read the two towers at all carefully we do see Ugluk as a worthy captain and servant of Saruman and not just a mindless animal. In his final battle Eomer dismounts and fights Ugluk sword to sword. This a Chivalric act/complement and shows Eomer recognized Ugluk as a Warrior and a peer.BTW Loved the stills, thanks for posting.
Orcs are actually often as tall as or taller than humans. But they look shorter because they rarely stand up straight, but instead hunch their backs and walk bow legged.
Thank you for this channel. I dont read the books but I love the lore thanks to the movies and these videos help me understand it even better so I thank you for that.
kingkusnacht yes please! that would be great. Perhaps area specific, one for Beleriand, one for Eriador, one for Numenor, one for Valinor, one for the east and etc
I must mis-remember just about everything. I haven't read these books in decades, but I always thought it was made clear in The Silmarillion that orcs were corrupted elves. I also thought goblins were not orcs, but a related species. Smaller, more afraid of the light and generally cowardly, more populous. I guess it could be regarded as a difference of 'breed', but I thought they were pretty distinct. Guess I'll have to go back and read it all again?
In the movies it's clearly said that "they was elves once, corrupted and twisted into what you see now" and yes, goblins are said to be "cousins" of orcs that migrated underground, they became smaller and weaker, while more numerous. They had their own culture and king, looked different enough and hand their own backstory. Hell they even invaded the Shire once and was defeated. It was called the "Battle of Green Fields" I've also read this somewhere, but it maybe fan fiction?
Actually, it hasn't been made clear. The wording in The Silmarillion was something amongst the lines of "it has been said". Also, The Silmarillion, like History of Middle-Earth where the theories about Men and Maiar come from, are both arisen from Tolkien's writings. The thing is, sometimes HoME is more reliable as we know exactly which information came from Tolkien and what was written by his son, end when Tolkien wrote it. This is a bit harder in the Silmarillion due to it being story-like so we don't know when the information we get from it was written, and may be overruled by later changes. Christopher did a great job with it, but it's not Tolkien himself. The statement about goblins may be true for the movies, there is absolutely no proof that Tolkien said something like that. In fact, he explicitly stated - in the preface of The Hobbit - that goblin is the translated word for Orc. He left the option of hobgoblin for larger kinds of Orcs, but didn't use it that much. In LotR, he would even call Saruman's Uruks goblins at two points: once at Amon Hen ("four goblin-soldiers of greater stature"), and once when they found the Orcs that Eomer burned.
Orc is originally derived from the Quenya word urco, which means bogeyman. Goblin is the name given to them in the common speech or Westron. Although that language is presented as English in the book, it was actually derived from Adûnaic, the language of Númenor. The English sounding names, such as those of the hobbits, are actually translations of the proper names in Westron. For instance, Imladris is translated as Rivendell, but was actually called Karningul in Westron. Therefore, the actual Westron word for goblin would probably be something similar to orc, as most other languages of Middle-Earth (including the black speech) seem to have borrowed the name from Quenya.
+woldenwolk Goblin is not Westron, it's the translation in modern English - as the preface of The Hobbit implies: "Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits’ form of the name given at that time to these creatures". The word "Orc" is derived from the Old-English word orc, meaning demon. Of course, this isn't the in-lore explanation. The thing is - every language had a similar word for Orc. Indeed, Quenya had Urco, but Sindarin had Orch, and hobbits - who spoke a Westron dialect - said Orc as the quote from the hobbit preface tells us, as do the people of Rohan according to the Appendices of LotR.
Interesting quote at the end. And to think that the greatest injustice would be that done to the orcs in Iluvatar's eyes. It would be nice to see t hat explored more.
Out of the two theories, I actually prefer the 2nd theory moreso than the first. I like to think of them as these Neanderthal like creatures that never made any contact with the other races. They were simply animals followed by their own instincts right up until Morgoth showed on their doorstep. Sure, the first theory is the most well known, and probably the most evident of the two. But the second kinda makes the orcs' origins much more interesting, making them both natural and ambiguous to study. Making them as tortured humans and elves kinda makes their origins just seem less magical and too quick to conclude.
I always thought it was Sauron who bred Uruk-hai and Olog-hai and that it was considered one of his greatest crimes. The first time Uruks were seen was when they captured and burned Osgiliath with spear and sword or whatever was written in my old lotr bestiary : ))
There are no sources that say that Saruman's Uruks are different from Sauron's. Unifinished Tales for example just talks about uruks all the time during the Battles of the Fords of the Isen - not a single mention of Uruk-hai. What is more: in the Index of Unifinshed Tales, we can read: "Uruks - Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength." It is about the plural form of course. In the Appendices we can read: "Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soilder-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'." (F) "At that time Sauron had arisen again, and the shadow of Mordor reached out to Rohan. Orcs began to raid in the eastern regions and slay or steal horses. Others also came down from the Misty Mountains, many being great uruks in the service of Saruman, though it was long before that was suspected."(A) What Saruman did do however, was recovering the lost lore of breeding Half-orcs. However, these were not Uruk-hai as seen in Unfinished Tales where a clear distinction was made between Uruks and Orc-men (at one point "Men or Orc-men" which implies their look being very close to Men), as in the accounts of Merry when he described the armies that marched from Isengard.
This seems very inconsistent, I thought that Tolkien made a disctinct difference between the Goblins of the Misty Mountains and the orcs of Mordor. Sure the term was capitalized in the Lord of the Rings, but there was a difference in the case of Goblins v Orcs. I think Peter Jackson started the trend by just loosely throwing around the term "Orc."
Tolkien never capitalized the term "goblin". Tolkien never made a clear distinction between goblin and Orc either, saying that goblin was the English translation of Orc (as one can read in the Hobbit preface for example). He did make a distinction between the places of origin, so he would say Orcs of the Misty Mountains - or just the North - and Orcs of Mordor. But this was rather based on the emblem they bore than difference in species. After all, the first time we see Saruman's Uruk-hai in LotR - at Amon Hen, they are described as "four goblin-soldiers of greater stature". Actually, it's Jackson who started the whole confusion of Orc and goblins being different creatures altogether.
To add to what you were saying : Uruk is a singular meaning Orc (and as stated above evolved into meaning 'Great Orc-soldiers') and Uruk-hai is Black Speech meaning 'Orc-folk' just like 'Olog-hai' is 'Troll-folk' but as Black Speech was used by them and not other Trolls (or only sparsely) we can deduce that is why it evolved into a word applied only to that type of Trolls from Mordor and not every Troll. Since Uruk originated from Mordor it's likely the same explanation can be used for why 'Uruk's meaning evolved to apply only to greater Orcs.
Hey mate! I really like your Videos! but could you do a more detailed vid about middleearth? where you maybe make a vid about the First age, the second age.... that would be great
I guess I could do a general timeline video if people want it, but I figured that if people watch every one of these videos, they'll have a good idea of the history of events.
I agree. I would love to see a video of each of the Ages. Obviously you can't cover every single event during those Ages but a discussion of the major events would be very enjoyable to watch. Thank you.
Great videos, if I could make a small suggestion: to include a time bar along the screen that indicates when in history you are discussing. Your time points shift a lot and an amateur to the series as myself has difficulty following. Thanks!
That last part there was very interesting. If we look at orcs as pure savagery, "most hateful to Iluvatar", but perhaps capable of heroic good in the absence of corruption.
See I always thought that Goblins, like those of Moria, were distinct from the Orcs. Goblins had different statures, traits, appearance, sound and behaviour than orcs.
That's only true in the movies, the Moria orcs are not really different from any other kind in the novel. There are some named orcs such as Azog and Grishnack that are refered as both goblin and orc.
"Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves." So spake Treebeard to Merry and Pippin before the battle of Isengard.
I think in the movies, Saruman created the Uruk-Hai. However, in the appendix to the Return of the King, the Uruk-Hai appeared much earlier then the events in the movie. They came out of Mordor, were developed by Sauron, and were able to defeat the Gondorian armies that were defending Osgiliath in broad daylight, then they sacked and burned Osgiliath which used to be the capital of Gondor.
May have been mentioned, but in the book and even in the movie, its not an orc leader they slay in the misty mountains when escaping its the goblin king.
I've always heard Orcs were corrupted Elves. It makes some sense how the Orc language is very close to Elvish in the way it sounds. Also how the Orcs seem to have a particular hatred of Elves.
Evil isn't supposed to be interesting. It's supposed to be horrifying. That's the worst, most un-Tolkienian thing about those abominable games, even more so than the the hideous mangling of the lore.
In the books it seems that the hobbits tend to call them goblins whilst humans tend to call them orcs. A bit like the situation you see with the term hobbit and halfling.
Dweliq Where does it say that in Tolkiens works? Why do humans never use the term goblin? Fail. Your'e probably thinking of warhammer orcs and goblins. Humans from Gondor and Rohan just see them as big orcs or small orcs. Though in the hobbit where the term 'goblin' was most used, that was partly because it was written from a hobbit perspective. And the orcs that were encountered in that adventure seemed to have mostly been the smaller types with the exception of some of the chieftains. Leading to the confusion that goblins are a smaller type of orc.
I kinda like the reason they gave in the Shadows of Mordor games, that if their ever was a 'good' Orc, it probibly wouldn't survive long. I still wanna know how Orcs are made. Are they born or are they created like what we saw in Fellowship with the Uruk-hai.
While orcs made up a large percent of morgoths and sourans army's morgoth actually bred Uruk which where basically Uruk-hai but where bred all the way back in the first age. They where bred in the first age by morgoth, the second age sauron, and the third age by Sauron and soroman. The Uruk bred by soromon where seen as slight improved Uruk and where called Uruk-hai.
Nope, Sauron bred the Uruk-hai - their race first appeared 500 years before LotR. Also "Uruks" is the Anglicized form of "Uruk-hai", meaning it's the same thing and that there is no indication of any difference between the Uruks from Mordor and those from Isengard, save for some of the gear (they still wore crude Orc-mail, but had broadswords and taxus bows unlike the Uruks from Mordor).
of course orcs arnt men...as you state yourself...they came before men...and its said quite clearly in silmarillion that most suspect them to be corrupted elfs...and as for the maia teori it only is speculated around powerfull orc-leaders
The key here is that it's only clear in the published Silmarillion. Tolkien never settled on any option for long and he hesitated between the Men and Elves options regarding Orcs' origins but his son chose the latter because it was more simple to use in the chronology. If you read The History of Middle Earth you'll see how Tolkien's thougts on the matter evolved and how he tended to prefer the human option to the Elvish option at the end of his life but didn't get the time (or courage since it required many complicated changes) to modify his work accordingly.
The Uruk-hai were not created by Saruman. That's in the movies (as well as those weird mud spawning pits). In the book they came from Mordor and had been around for hundreds of years.
Didn't Aragorn give "The Slaves of Sauron" The Sea of Rhun? I always interpreted that since the remaining Orcs were free from the power of Sauron that they treated with The King of Gondor for a place to have for their own to build their own civilization. Or am I completely wrong about this?
It's more likely Tolkien was reffering to the many human slaves that Sauron used to grow food around the Sea of Rhûn. These people are mentionned when Sam wonders how Sauron feed his enormous armies.
I thought Uruk-Hai was a term more or less synonymous with "Orc-folk," and were the Soldier class of orc while the snaga were the workers and servant class. Saruman did create his own breed of orcs (or Uruks) that were resistant to sunlight, but they weren't the first of the Uruk-Hai.
& yet, if deep in their hearts the orcs really hate melkor, perhaps iluvatar will make their redemption (when they finally take a stand against melkor alongside men) one of his greatest songs the whole corruption of men - or any creature - is pretty fascinating to me. can't shake the feeling its an unexplored part of LOTR & of literature in general partly because its a theme we're currently undergoing now in the real world
I kind of like that the origin of Orcs is unclear. It puts us even further into the shoes of the people of middle earth, being that they couldn't agree on where they came from either.
Hey dude, Do you have a certain source for your statement at 2:12? I'm just curious if this is a fact or is it some how a collective thought influence amongst Tolkien fans? It is very easy to assume that they did migrate towards that area, but do we have an actual line that states this?
Well, it's more like the relation between Quendi and Elves, Periannath and hobbits, Atani and Men. One should keep in mind that everything in Tolkien's world has names in the languages from Middle-Earth, and an English translation, and that Tolkien liked to use them both. Goblin was just the translation he used for Orc - and for all kinds, even the Uruk-hai. It is also seen in his translation of Orcrist, which he called goblin-cleaver in English. And he made numerous statements about goblin being the translation of Orc.
There's a book from like 1978 called "Tolkien Bestiary" that explicitly states that orcs were made from twisting and corrupting captured elves during the earliest days of the elves waking up in middle earth
So I have a couple of questions. Do we ever hear of female orcs in the works of Tolkien or do the orcs just interbreed with other races? Are there any female orcs of note if their are female orcs?
Well I mean as far as I remembered I didn't think I ever saw a female orc in the movies so it was possible that like the Deep Ones from H.P. Lovecraft's Shadow Over Innsmouth that they just interbred with other species.
Draco Magnius In movie they dig them from the ground like potatoes, in books they reproduces the same way the others do. Only thing is that Tolkien died before he fully revise his final view of orcs origins and nature.
I think it's like Ian526 said, that it's the same way as the rest. You just don't see women orcs (or can't distinguish between man and women orc). Same story with the dwarves right?
alexander uncu Well I can't speak for Lord of the Rings as I only have the movies to go off of, but in other works of Fantasy you can usually tell male and female dwarves as the females have boobs. Some works have male as females having beards with females having less facial hair then males as well.
Tolkien wrote a letter to Miss Munby stating clearly that Orcs/Goblins of current day reproduce the same way men and elves do, and that "there must have been female orcs". Imo this really makes them sound like a representation through medieval-western eyes of Hunnic and Mongol raider tribes.
"They [Orcs] would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) - Letter 153 So it's not as black and white as you think.
My concern is that no one has since developed such a rich genre independent of Tolkien. Sure there are sci fi universes but those usually spawn fan fiction, the smaller, less talented cousin of genre. I'd like to say that Star Wars presents the seeds of a new genre but it's too riddled with copyright to ever allow that.
tho would think that once the evil rulers of middle earth were defeated, orcs corruption also withered when they were no longer influenced by their dark masters. possibly their appearance would not change since they get that from genes, but its possible their personalities eventually become simply wary of other races and while being so few in number, didnt wish to risk total extinction. but rather took a trade in farming, hunting and trade. this I would assume.
I find Tolkiens orks more interesting to many more modern version of orcs. Warcrafts orcs are pretty much just green skinned bodybuilder torsoed humans who have hoar voices and like to roar a lot.
i think orcs are a bit of both. Morgoth kidnapped some elves and through the ages he did terrible things to them, as time went on he stole other races to add to the orcs until they where compleated. beasts,elves,men,dwarfs, sorcery are all probebly part of the orcs
15 birds in 5 fir trees, there feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze, what funny little birds, they had no wings, oh what shall we do with the funny little things? Oh what shall we do with the funny little things?
"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi (elves) who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes." How is the origin of Orcs a mystery?
The key here is that it's only clear in the published Silmarillion. Tolkien never settled on any option for long and he hesitated between the Men and Elves options regarding Orcs' origins but his son chose the latter because it was more simple to use in the chronology. If you read The History of Middle Earth you'll see how Tolkien's thougts on the matter evolved and how he tended to prefer the human option to the Elvish option at the end of his life but didn't get the time (or courage since it required many complicated changes) to modify his work accordingly.
Where there's a whip, there's a way.
Terribly catchy
Whip it, WHIP IT GOOD!
Left, right, left, right. left, right. When theres a whip *whip cracks* Theres a way.A crack on the back means we're gonna march. We're gonna march all day and night and more.
Fuck! You just got that into my head!!!
We don't wanna go to war today! But the Lord of the Lash says "nay nay nay!"
We're gonna march all day, all day, all day!
Where there's a whip there's a way!
I always pictured that after the War of The Ring, the remaining orcs opened a chain of bakeries to make up for past sins
Everyone loves goblin' down their pies and pastries.
"They're Goblin Good!"
"We've had nothing but moldy bread for three stinking days!"
@@Canned_Knight bahahaha
@@Canned_Knight When Amputation and Bloodletting are the only known treatments...
@@lamehick7511 "ackchyually" orcs have fantastic medicine in LOTR.
From what I remember - both orcs and trolls are mockeries of the fair creations of the world - orcs are corrupt mockeries of elves and trolls - of ents.
Silmarillion says the first orcs were elves that were kidnapped and corrupted Morgoth. LotR also mentions this.
AlexeiVoronin I was just thinking, we do know where they come from, they're Elves captured by Morgoth.
trolls are not ents obviously
Trolls and ents share many similar characteristics. But obviously, like elfs-orcs, the treant-trolls were twisted beyond recognition.
And who knows, maybe that's where the entwives disappeared.
Your memory is absolutely accurate.
"Do you know how the orcs first came to be....." - ua-cam.com/video/tgXPRxmHk6Q/v-deo.html
I never knew goblins and orcs were the same race. I remember I played Warhammer Fantasy Battle, and my team was Orcs and Goblins. This was back in the nineties :-)
In the Silmarillion Tolkein was pretty clear about where the orcs came from and that Morgoth tormented captured elves to turn them into orcs, and that this was his worst most perverted deed in the eyes of Illuvatar. He even quotes the end of that particular passage at the end of the video around 6:22.
The key here is that it's only clear in the published Silmarillion. Tolkien never settled on any option for long and he hesitated between the Men and Elves options regarding Orcs' origins but his son chose the latter because it was more simple to use in the chronology. If you read The History of Middle Earth you'll see how Tolkien's thougts on the matter evolved and how he tended to prefer the human option to the Elvish option at the end of his life but didn't get the time (or courage since it required many complicated changes) to modify his work accordingly.
I thought it would be cool if Tolkien made books about some of the other races or peoples of Middle Earth like the Easterlings, I want to know what it would be like to live in the east with all those huge Oliphants roaming around, or the Orcs, what would it be like in an Orc city like Minis Morgul, what about the Southrons or the Corsairs.
Don't the Oliphants come from the Haradrim's country? After all, they were the ones to use them in battle, not the Easterlings.
Not very nice, to put it lightly. That's why Tolkien didn't waste time writing detailed descriptions of orc reproduction, or life as a tortured slave in Angband. He was, naturally, repulsed by the very thought,, and would have found the modern morbid fascination with such unpleasant topics (fed by such vile creations as Game of Thrones) to be itself repulsive.
Best comment winner
@@TomorrowWeLive pity, he must have conflated wanting to know about the darkness of the world with wanting to celebrate it. They need not be the same thing .
Sauron's biggest problem was that he used the wrong orcs. He really needed Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and Grimgor Ironhide
I finks dat git Sauron just don' like proppa green. Why else d'ya fink he'd use dem zoggin' night grotz?
Da Beast!
Also Tolkien's orcs weren't nearly shooty enough, or use enough red paint :)
does that mean Sauron would use gobbos as well or would he forget them
Harris Turpin
Well he basically uses WH goblins now, so hey.
Huge props to MasterBombadillo for saving me a lot of time correcting people in the comments. Please keep in mind that the Silmarillion is not the only source of information for Tolkien's world.
TheExploringSeries they were elves weren't they he said in simalrill that they were elves that Morgoth corrupted and tortured
frog that's just one of the ideas he had for the orcs it could be true it couldn't be true
Grim ose oh sorry
Unreasonably Sane Did _you_ do any research? Because if you did, you would know there's no clear answer.
I don't think this adds to ignorance. So much of the posthumously published materials contradict each other, because Tolkien didn't make up his mind yet, or because he changed his mind, or because he didn't had the time yet to revise his stories to get them in line with his newer views, and this video accounts for that fact. This is the case with the Silmarillion, which talks about corrupted Elves as the sole origin of Orcs, while Unfinished Tales talks about Men as being the sole source of those creatures. And in HoME we read even different stuff.
Also, there's the fact that many of those theories are presented as theories from within the universe itself. In the Silmarillion we read "it is held true", while in Unfinished Tales we read "the Eldar answered". Not in many places do we get the thoughts of Tolkien himself about the matter.
Other theories include sentient beasts, made of stone and slime, fallen Maiar... The first two did get dropped though, not sure about the latter.
I've always leaned towards orcs being corrupted elves, mostly because of the convo between Shagrat and Gorbag (might have been two unnamed orcs a bit later on) where one of them mentions the great darkness. That was in the second age, ending with the last alliance, iirc. I think that implies that orcs are immortal, like the elves, and won't die of old age. Be neat to find an orc that was around before the War of Wrath...
I love the art in this video! I would also like to point out that in The Silmarillion it says Orcs were Elves that were corrupted and tortured, also in The Fellowship of the ring (movie, not sure about the book because I haven't finished reading it yet) Sauruman tells the Uruk-Hai that Orcs used to be Elves, though the movies and books do differ a lot.
I always like to think that the orcs survive through out the 4th age and where just hiding and waiting because we have seen that orcs can command themselves with the right leader like Bolg Azog and the great Goblin so I would like to think they lived through the 4th age
Isn't there a line in The Hobbit stating that goblins are smaller cousins of the orcs? (I'm not trying to be nit-picky, I really enjoy these videos, you're doing good work here!)
Not that I know of. Goblin is used quite a bit in the hobbit as that's generally what hobbits call orcs.
Ok, I found a pretty good explanation of it, Tolkien decided between
publishing The Hobbit and LOTR that goblin brought to mind too many of
the older folk tale images. Also, as a linguist he felt that goblin,
being a Latin derived word, didn't belong in his world, which borrows so
heavily from Anglo-Saxon histories.
Orcs and Goblins are the same thing. They just called them Goblins in The Hobbit.
The quote at the end is probably the most impactful and representative of the fallacy of evil. And as the Silmarillion points out, it is said that men, and therefore orcs "would stray, often."
You meant this quote?
“Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits’ form of the name given at that time to these creatures ...” - The Hobbit preface
However, we can see the usage of the word "goblin" even for the larger Orcs in LotR. These are two quotes about Saruman's Uruk-hai being called goblins.
“There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands.” - TTT Chapter 1
“Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen."- TTT Chapter 3
Orcs also loved to sing. And from the few times they had we got some nice hits like "When Theres a Whip Theres a Way", "Fifteen Birds in Five Fir Trees", and "Down Down to Goblin Town"
Movie lore creeping in there. The Uruk-hai, in the books, are created by Sauron as an improvement over the original orc strains. They're taller, stronger, and able to act in daylight without handicap. In Black Speech their name means 'orc-men'. The creatures that Saurman bred were half-orcs, a foul union of orcs and likely the Dunlendings. While it is likely that Saruman had Uruk-hai serving him since the strain spread far beyond Mordor during Sauron's absence, the armies that attacked Helm's Deep were an admixture of orc breeds and Dunlendings, not the cohesive Uruk-hai legions seen in the film.
What you are saying is partially true as well :
Uruk-hai means "Orc folk" not "Orc-men" Tolkien explains at the end of the LotR that the name 'Uruk' being Black Speech evolved to apply only to the greatest and strongest Orcs (those we call Uruks which is only the english way of making 'Uruk' plural and is synonymous with Uruk-hai).
As for Saruman using Uruks it's a certainty since they are mentionned several times in his armies (not least as the title of the chapter "The Uruk-hai"). It's unclear what the difference is between Orc-men and Uruk-haï since they are mentionned separately in Saruman's army while some think Uruks are a mix of Orcs and Men...
Carandini a funny thing about the movie lore on the uruks, and the lotr films in general... if you look at the designs of things like elven armor, or the ents, they strongly resemble games workshop's warhammer counterparts. and warhammer orcs reproduce asexually (they're basically part algae or lichen) by shedding spores that culminate in fully grown orcs emerging from sacs in the ground, ready to kill, not unlike how the birth of lurtz was shown in fotr.
i suspected some sort of design collaboration was going on between new line/wingnut and games workshop the first time i saw lotr, and was not surprised to learn that gw had acquired the rights to produce lotr games.
blackderby80 All rights to LotR are held by Warner Bros Inc. including Video Games.
I'm going to contest this claim. In the Helm's Deep chapter of Two Towers, as Aragorn is trying to parley with the orcs, they repeat three times, 'We are the Uruk-Hai,' along with various threats and boasts. It's clear that they considered themselves the Uruk-Hai, and the chapter of the same name describes how much larger, stronger, and more enduring they are than their lesser orcish brethren.
From what I could tell in the Uruk-Hai chapter, there are at least 3 kinds of orcs in Middle Earth at the time of LOTR; the small, nimble mountain dwellers who are weak and fear sunlight, the orcs of Mordor, who are middling in terms of strength and sun resistance, and the Uruk-Hai, who are the paragon of both attributes. Whether the Uruk-Hai who served Saruman are a unique variant on the formula (a new genetic strand, shall we say) from the other Uruks, it's clear that he did have Uruk-Hai.
Awesome channel man! Seriously happy I stumbled upon this. Great insight and thoughts.
While there are no good orcs, If you read the two towers at all carefully we do see Ugluk as a worthy captain and servant of Saruman and not just a mindless animal. In his final battle Eomer dismounts and fights Ugluk sword to sword. This a Chivalric act/complement and shows Eomer recognized Ugluk as a Warrior and a peer.BTW Loved the stills, thanks for posting.
Orcs are actually often as tall as or taller than humans. But they look shorter because they rarely stand up straight, but instead hunch their backs and walk bow legged.
I believe that Sauron was first to create the Uruk-hai; Saruman followed later.
Thank you for this channel. I dont read the books but I love the lore thanks to the movies and these videos help me understand it even better so I thank you for that.
I like how you reference other Fantasy works. Tolkien laid down the foundation for modern Fantasy. Without him many would simply not exist.
The Silmarillian makes it clear that Orcs were originally Elves, hence their long lifespans
My all time favourite Chanel on UA-cam
How about a middle earth world map episode?
kingkusnacht yes please! that would be great. Perhaps area specific, one for Beleriand, one for Eriador, one for Numenor, one for Valinor, one for the east and etc
in the silrmarian, (basically the history book of the Lord of the Rings ) the first orcs were corrupted elfs
i see that you did not even read the book (at least SİLMARİLLİON) because you don't know how to spell it or even write it eheheh
Broken Chains ur gay
Kennedy plays your right
No it doesn't..
The Silmarillion is technically not canon, IIRC
I must mis-remember just about everything. I haven't read these books in decades, but I always thought it was made clear in The Silmarillion that orcs were corrupted elves. I also thought goblins were not orcs, but a related species. Smaller, more afraid of the light and generally cowardly, more populous. I guess it could be regarded as a difference of 'breed', but I thought they were pretty distinct. Guess I'll have to go back and read it all again?
In the movies it's clearly said that "they was elves once, corrupted and twisted into what you see now" and yes, goblins are said to be "cousins" of orcs that migrated underground, they became smaller and weaker, while more numerous. They had their own culture and king, looked different enough and hand their own backstory. Hell they even invaded the Shire once and was defeated. It was called the "Battle of Green Fields"
I've also read this somewhere, but it maybe fan fiction?
Actually, it hasn't been made clear. The wording in The Silmarillion was something amongst the lines of "it has been said". Also, The Silmarillion, like History of Middle-Earth where the theories about Men and Maiar come from, are both arisen from Tolkien's writings. The thing is, sometimes HoME is more reliable as we know exactly which information came from Tolkien and what was written by his son, end when Tolkien wrote it. This is a bit harder in the Silmarillion due to it being story-like so we don't know when the information we get from it was written, and may be overruled by later changes. Christopher did a great job with it, but it's not Tolkien himself.
The statement about goblins may be true for the movies, there is absolutely no proof that Tolkien said something like that. In fact, he explicitly stated - in the preface of The Hobbit - that goblin is the translated word for Orc. He left the option of hobgoblin for larger kinds of Orcs, but didn't use it that much. In LotR, he would even call Saruman's Uruks goblins at two points: once at Amon Hen ("four goblin-soldiers of greater stature"), and once when they found the Orcs that Eomer burned.
Orc is originally derived from the Quenya word urco, which means bogeyman. Goblin is the name given to them in the common speech or Westron. Although that language is presented as English in the book, it was actually derived from Adûnaic, the language of Númenor. The English sounding names, such as those of the hobbits, are actually translations of the proper names in Westron. For instance, Imladris is translated as Rivendell, but was actually called Karningul in Westron. Therefore, the actual Westron word for goblin would probably be something similar to orc, as most other languages of Middle-Earth (including the black speech) seem to have borrowed the name from Quenya.
+woldenwolk
Goblin is not Westron, it's the translation in modern English - as the preface of The Hobbit implies: "Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits’ form of the name given at that time to these creatures".
The word "Orc" is derived from the Old-English word orc, meaning demon. Of course, this isn't the in-lore explanation. The thing is - every language had a similar word for Orc. Indeed, Quenya had Urco, but Sindarin had Orch, and hobbits - who spoke a Westron dialect - said Orc as the quote from the hobbit preface tells us, as do the people of Rohan according to the Appendices of LotR.
***** Yes, that is what I said. It seems likely that the words in Sindarin and Westron are descended from the Quenya word, as many words are.
#OrcLivesDontMatter
John Anderson RACISM TRIGGERED!!!!!!!!!
John Anderson I roleplay as Scumbag the Orc. The name is ironic since orcs are very warlike and mine is more or less pacifistic.
John Anderson #orcsarepeopletoo
Quin Skew Pacifists aren't scumbags though?
Big Ray In a warlike culture they are
Amazing Job! Keep it up! Trolls next please
from the first 20 seconds I already know I'm gonna like your content so I subscribed in advance
Really enjoying your videos!
Ahh. My sleepytime vids. Thanks man.
Ork ork ork ork ork ork
Ork radio?
Mi Whaaaaaagh!!!
Damn greenskins
'Ere we go!
We'z da greenest and we'z da meanest!
I love this channel soo much. nice job man
Interesting quote at the end. And to think that the greatest injustice would be that done to the orcs in Iluvatar's eyes. It would be nice to see t hat explored more.
Out of the two theories, I actually prefer the 2nd theory moreso than the first. I like to think of them as these Neanderthal like creatures that never made any contact with the other races. They were simply animals followed by their own instincts right up until Morgoth showed on their doorstep. Sure, the first theory is the most well known, and probably the most evident of the two. But the second kinda makes the orcs' origins much more interesting, making them both natural and ambiguous to study. Making them as tortured humans and elves kinda makes their origins just seem less magical and too quick to conclude.
As a huge lotr fan who loves digging into the lore. These videos are awesome.
I always thought it was Sauron who bred Uruk-hai and Olog-hai and that it was considered one of his greatest crimes. The first time Uruks were seen was when they captured and burned Osgiliath with spear and sword or whatever was written in my old lotr bestiary : ))
Yes, Sauron did breed Uruks, but Saruman apparently improved the process, allowing them to endure sunlight.
There are no sources that say that Saruman's Uruks are different from Sauron's. Unifinished Tales for example just talks about uruks all the time during the Battles of the Fords of the Isen - not a single mention of Uruk-hai. What is more: in the Index of Unifinshed Tales, we can read: "Uruks - Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength." It is about the plural form of course.
In the Appendices we can read:
"Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soilder-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'." (F)
"At that time Sauron had arisen again, and the shadow of Mordor reached out to Rohan. Orcs began to raid in the eastern regions and slay or steal horses. Others also came down from the Misty Mountains, many being great uruks in the service of Saruman, though it was long before that was suspected."(A)
What Saruman did do however, was recovering the lost lore of breeding Half-orcs. However, these were not Uruk-hai as seen in Unfinished Tales where a clear distinction was made between Uruks and Orc-men (at one point "Men or Orc-men" which implies their look being very close to Men), as in the accounts of Merry when he described the armies that marched from Isengard.
This seems very inconsistent, I thought that Tolkien made a disctinct difference between the Goblins of the Misty Mountains and the orcs of Mordor. Sure the term was capitalized in the Lord of the Rings, but there was a difference in the case of Goblins v Orcs. I think Peter Jackson started the trend by just loosely throwing around the term "Orc."
Tolkien never capitalized the term "goblin". Tolkien never made a clear distinction between goblin and Orc either, saying that goblin was the English translation of Orc (as one can read in the Hobbit preface for example). He did make a distinction between the places of origin, so he would say Orcs of the Misty Mountains - or just the North - and Orcs of Mordor. But this was rather based on the emblem they bore than difference in species. After all, the first time we see Saruman's Uruk-hai in LotR - at Amon Hen, they are described as "four goblin-soldiers of greater stature".
Actually, it's Jackson who started the whole confusion of Orc and goblins being different creatures altogether.
To add to what you were saying : Uruk is a singular meaning Orc (and as stated above evolved into meaning 'Great Orc-soldiers') and Uruk-hai is Black Speech meaning 'Orc-folk' just like 'Olog-hai' is 'Troll-folk' but as Black Speech was used by them and not other Trolls (or only sparsely) we can deduce that is why it evolved into a word applied only to that type of Trolls from Mordor and not every Troll. Since Uruk originated from Mordor it's likely the same explanation can be used for why 'Uruk's meaning evolved to apply only to greater Orcs.
Orc lives matter.
short but sweet, love your work
Hey mate! I really like your Videos! but could you do a more detailed vid about middleearth? where you maybe make a vid about the First age, the second age.... that would be great
I guess I could do a general timeline video if people want it, but I figured that if people watch every one of these videos, they'll have a good idea of the history of events.
I was thinking a video of each battle in chronological order would be cool. Not sure how many there are though and how much work that would be
I agree. I would love to see a video of each of the Ages. Obviously you can't cover every single event during those Ages but a discussion of the major events would be very enjoyable to watch. Thank you.
Well there are dozens of battles in Tolkien's books so it could be pretty long even if it only include the major ones...
Great videos, if I could make a small suggestion: to include a time bar along the screen that indicates when in history you are discussing. Your time points shift a lot and an amateur to the series as myself has difficulty following. Thanks!
I wonder if without the dominating influence of Morgoth or Souron, if the Orcs would have changed at all?
3:50 Movie says Uruk's are a crossbreed from Orcs & Trolls
That last part there was very interesting. If we look at orcs as pure savagery, "most hateful to Iluvatar", but perhaps capable of heroic good in the absence of corruption.
0:02 That one has a sword breaker (catcher properly) You don't see that in fantasy often.
And warhammer orks are literally the most savage version of orks
According to Gandalf Uruk-Hais are a mix of orcs and goblin men
"ORKS! PURGE THE BEASTS"
See I always thought that Goblins, like those of Moria, were distinct from the Orcs. Goblins had different statures, traits, appearance, sound and behaviour than orcs.
That's only true in the movies, the Moria orcs are not really different from any other kind in the novel.
There are some named orcs such as Azog and Grishnack that are refered as both goblin and orc.
Warhammer Orks came before Wow orcs.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHH
Master Spookums Boyz iz made for fightin'! WAAAAAAAGH!!!
People just dont understand that all WoW is is a rip off of Warhammer...
+ChaoticHeretic not really, at all
Sindre Enger Yes it is. Completely a rip off.
"Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves." So spake Treebeard to Merry and Pippin before the battle of Isengard.
I think in the movies, Saruman created the Uruk-Hai. However, in the appendix to the Return of the King, the Uruk-Hai appeared much earlier then the events in the movie. They came out of Mordor, were developed by Sauron, and were able to defeat the Gondorian armies that were defending Osgiliath in broad daylight, then they sacked and burned Osgiliath which used to be the capital of Gondor.
New to this channel and love these vids man keep them coming
'Sought' is the past tense of seek, not seeked, isn't it?
May have been mentioned, but in the book and even in the movie, its not an orc leader they slay in the misty mountains when escaping its the goblin king.
very good detail keep up the good work
I've always heard Orcs were corrupted Elves. It makes some sense how the Orc language is very close to Elvish in the way it sounds. Also how the Orcs seem to have a particular hatred of Elves.
I do love how shadow of mordor and shadow of war gave the orcs or Uruks their own personalities and goals. Makes them more interesting.
I love those games.
Btw do orcs reproduce biologically? Cuz there don't seem to be any female or child orcs
Evil isn't supposed to be interesting. It's supposed to be horrifying. That's the worst, most un-Tolkienian thing about those abominable games, even more so than the the hideous mangling of the lore.
You can have them be both horrifying and interesting.
In the books it seems that the hobbits tend to call them goblins whilst humans tend to call them orcs. A bit like the situation you see with the term hobbit and halfling.
Bullshit, everyone knows that goblins are human shaped and about 150 cm tall while orcs are 2m tall and are muscular and gorilla like.
Dweliq Where does it say that in Tolkiens works? Why do humans never use the term goblin? Fail. Your'e probably thinking of warhammer orcs and goblins. Humans from Gondor and Rohan just see them as big orcs or small orcs.
Though in the hobbit where the term 'goblin' was most used, that was partly because it was written from a hobbit perspective. And the orcs that were encountered in that adventure seemed to have mostly been the smaller types with the exception of some of the chieftains. Leading to the confusion that goblins are a smaller type of orc.
BVargas78 Bullshit my source is Heroes of Might and Magic 3 which has the best orcs and goblins ever so please shut up, my sources are better.
Dweliq We are talking Tolkien and Middle Earth, not Might and Magic here.
BVargas78 I thought we were talking goblins and rocs?
I kinda like the reason they gave in the Shadows of Mordor games, that if their ever was a 'good' Orc, it probibly wouldn't survive long. I still wanna know how Orcs are made. Are they born or are they created like what we saw in Fellowship with the Uruk-hai.
While orcs made up a large percent of morgoths and sourans army's morgoth actually bred Uruk which where basically Uruk-hai but where bred all the way back in the first age. They where bred in the first age by morgoth, the second age sauron, and the third age by Sauron and soroman. The Uruk bred by soromon where seen as slight improved Uruk and where called Uruk-hai.
Nope, Sauron bred the Uruk-hai - their race first appeared 500 years before LotR. Also "Uruks" is the Anglicized form of "Uruk-hai", meaning it's the same thing and that there is no indication of any difference between the Uruks from Mordor and those from Isengard, save for some of the gear (they still wore crude Orc-mail, but had broadswords and taxus bows unlike the Uruks from Mordor).
It would be kinda cool to have an orc that is gentle and wise who dresses like an elf and talk like a dwarf.
of course orcs arnt men...as you state yourself...they came before men...and its said quite clearly in silmarillion that most suspect them to be corrupted elfs...and as for the maia teori it only is speculated around powerfull orc-leaders
The key here is that it's only clear in the published Silmarillion. Tolkien never settled on any option for long and he hesitated between the Men and Elves options regarding Orcs' origins but his son chose the latter because it was more simple to use in the chronology. If you read The History of Middle Earth you'll see how Tolkien's thougts on the matter evolved and how he tended to prefer the human option to the Elvish option at the end of his life but didn't get the time (or courage since it required many complicated changes) to modify his work accordingly.
The Uruk-hai were not created by Saruman. That's in the movies (as well as those weird mud spawning pits). In the book they came from Mordor and had been around for hundreds of years.
Didn't Aragorn give "The Slaves of Sauron" The Sea of Rhun? I always interpreted that since the remaining Orcs were free from the power of Sauron that they treated with The King of Gondor for a place to have for their own to build their own civilization. Or am I completely wrong about this?
It's more likely Tolkien was reffering to the many human slaves that Sauron used to grow food around the Sea of Rhûn. These people are mentionned when Sam wonders how Sauron feed his enormous armies.
the uruks being crossbreeds of orks and men is more horrifying than it sounds
I'm surprised that you didn't mention any of the named Orcs, the great champions and so forth. There were several.
@C R Greatest of Morgoth's Minions
I thought Uruk-Hai was a term more or less synonymous with "Orc-folk," and were the Soldier class of orc while the snaga were the workers and servant class. Saruman did create his own breed of orcs (or Uruks) that were resistant to sunlight, but they weren't the first of the Uruk-Hai.
& yet, if deep in their hearts the orcs really hate melkor, perhaps iluvatar will make their redemption (when they finally take a stand against melkor alongside men) one of his greatest songs
the whole corruption of men - or any creature - is pretty fascinating to me. can't shake the feeling its an unexplored part of LOTR & of literature in general partly because its a theme we're currently undergoing now in the real world
In Warhammer 40k Orcs/Orks start out as plants from the ground and their numbers rival the droids from Starwars or Zerglings from Starcraft?
Whats the difference between the standart mordor Orcs, Goblins and Uruk-hai? Are those just different sub species of the same race?
I kind of like that the origin of Orcs is unclear. It puts us even further into the shoes of the people of middle earth, being that they couldn't agree on where they came from either.
Hey dude,
Do you have a certain source for your statement at 2:12? I'm just curious if this is a fact or is it some how a collective thought influence amongst Tolkien fans? It is very easy to assume that they did migrate towards that area, but do we have an actual line that states this?
I always thought of goblins as a type of Orc. Like how all Noldor are Eldar, but not all Eldar are Noldor. That's just what makes sense to me.
Well, it's more like the relation between Quendi and Elves, Periannath and hobbits, Atani and Men. One should keep in mind that everything in Tolkien's world has names in the languages from Middle-Earth, and an English translation, and that Tolkien liked to use them both. Goblin was just the translation he used for Orc - and for all kinds, even the Uruk-hai. It is also seen in his translation of Orcrist, which he called goblin-cleaver in English. And he made numerous statements about goblin being the translation of Orc.
There's a book from like 1978 called "Tolkien Bestiary" that explicitly states that orcs were made from twisting and corrupting captured elves during the earliest days of the elves waking up in middle earth
That's based on the Silmarillion, which I'd technically not canon, IIRC
So I have a couple of questions. Do we ever hear of female orcs in the works of Tolkien or do the orcs just interbreed with other races? Are there any female orcs of note if their are female orcs?
When orc papi loves orc mami thay make orc babi (yes they reproduces in the same way everyone does).
Well I mean as far as I remembered I didn't think I ever saw a female orc in the movies so it was possible that like the Deep Ones from H.P. Lovecraft's Shadow Over Innsmouth that they just interbred with other species.
Draco Magnius In movie they dig them from the ground like potatoes, in books they reproduces the same way the others do. Only thing is that Tolkien died before he fully revise his final view of orcs origins and nature.
I think it's like Ian526 said, that it's the same way as the rest. You just don't see women orcs (or can't distinguish between man and women orc). Same story with the dwarves right?
alexander uncu Well I can't speak for Lord of the Rings as I only have the movies to go off of, but in other works of Fantasy you can usually tell male and female dwarves as the females have boobs. Some works have male as females having beards with females having less facial hair then males as well.
I remember some commentary that Orcs were bred by the evil forces in mockery of elves, as trolls mocked the Ents
I just discovered these and they are pretty interesting videos.
Tolkien wrote a letter to Miss Munby stating clearly that Orcs/Goblins of current day reproduce the same way men and elves do, and that "there must have been female orcs".
Imo this really makes them sound like a representation through medieval-western eyes of Hunnic and Mongol raider tribes.
Where is the background from, that you used at 1:19?
www.deviantart.com/art/Morgoth-Legion-401013376
i dont belive the orks to be all evil
Tolkien did. Read The Silmarillion for more info.
"They [Orcs] would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) - Letter 153
So it's not as black and white as you think.
depends on what orcs you are talking about,the one with k are definitely evil
My concern is that no one has since developed such a rich genre independent of Tolkien. Sure there are sci fi universes but those usually spawn fan fiction, the smaller, less talented cousin of genre.
I'd like to say that Star Wars presents the seeds of a new genre but it's too riddled with copyright to ever allow that.
how do orcs breed? Are there female orcs or do they lay eggs or give off spores?
But how do they reproduce?
It is said that there are female orcs
In the movie it looked like they were hatched (sort of)but came out fully grown lol. Ugh
M Gordan that was something I didn't get at all but there are females it's just they are deep underground and don't show themselves
they have females
you know how its hard o tell a male dwarve from a female
same with orcs
M Gordan
Thats Uruk-hai which were kinda man-orc hybrids created by Saruman. The orc that morgoth created could reproduce normally
tho would think that once the evil rulers of middle earth were defeated, orcs corruption also withered when they were no longer influenced by their dark masters. possibly their appearance would not change since they get that from genes, but its possible their personalities eventually become simply wary of other races and while being so few in number, didnt wish to risk total extinction. but rather took a trade in farming, hunting and trade. this I would assume.
I find Tolkiens orks more interesting to many more modern version of orcs. Warcrafts orcs are pretty much just green skinned bodybuilder torsoed humans who have hoar voices and like to roar a lot.
You guys have way too much spare time!!
Am I the only one who really likes the Orcs and Uruk-Hai? Most assume Orcs are mindless and ridiculous, but they aren't. I like them very much.
I'm building an army of orcs at the moment. Soon we shall take Leighton Buzzard and build our Dark Citadel there...
i think orcs are a bit of both. Morgoth kidnapped some elves and through the ages he did terrible things to them, as time went on he stole other races to add to the orcs until they where compleated. beasts,elves,men,dwarfs, sorcery are all probebly part of the orcs
Love the uruks and uruk-hai
it is said in the movies and books that uruk-hai are created by crossing goblins and orcs
That's movies only. In the book, one cannot crossbreed Orcs and goblins because they are used to describe the same species.
Quality work.
Over my decades of life, Dungeon Keeper 2 brought me to Tolkien creatures, and to this video.
Never disrespect an ork army crossing the road
So Orcs and Goblins are the same?
Nicely done.
15 birds in 5 fir trees, there feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze, what funny little birds, they had no wings, oh what shall we do with the funny little things? Oh what shall we do with the funny little things?
When in lotr were goblins and orcs used interchangeably? Books or movies or games.
"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi (elves) who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."
How is the origin of Orcs a mystery?
The key here is that it's only clear in the published Silmarillion. Tolkien never settled on any option for long and he hesitated between the Men and Elves options regarding Orcs' origins but his son chose the latter because it was more simple to use in the chronology. If you read The History of Middle Earth you'll see how Tolkien's thougts on the matter evolved and how he tended to prefer the human option to the Elvish option at the end of his life but didn't get the time (or courage since it required many complicated changes) to modify his work accordingly.
wait Azorg isn't named in The Hobbit is he? I thought he was made for movie.
gorlemads he was a real character but he died many years before the hobbit tool place. Bolg, his son, was the real orc chieftain