Pulling vacuum with sman 460 micron gage/identifying what is leaking / cause of not holding vacuum
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- Опубліковано 14 кві 2020
- Warranty calls in the first 12 months of a installation or repair are unacceptable. I say they are proof a thorough evacuation and micron test likely weren’t done to begin with. Lets talk about the sman 460 and its sub tools to test systems and tools for leaks😎
So glad to see someone on UA-cam telling people NOT to close your gauges after reaching vacuum. I have worked around so many people that pulled vacuum and closed gauges, and frankly didn't know any better. Great video, great teacher, great techniques.
We issued the 460/480 sets to start up techs initially but soon grew tired of figuring out is it our hoses manifolds or systems that kept us from performing the decay tests. So, we issued 1 appion valve core removal tool, 1 svg3 stand alone micron gage, and one 1/4x1/4 appion vacuum hose to each tech.
No more tool problems and its blistering fast.
I use 3 Appion valve core tools. And 2 Appion hoses. Works well.
When 410a and micron guages etc. came around 12years ago or whatever, it was stated back then that standard charging hoses could not be used for vacuum do to permeability of the hose. They said the same thing about plastic POE oil bottles having permeability and absorbing moisture in the bottle.
It was also warned about pulling too fast a vacuum and crystalizing any mosture droplets.
This is all common knowledge
Phenomanl explanation on checking system for leaks. I always say some people are meant to be teachers and some are just meant to be workers. You my friend are both. I have a saying that goes along with being able to teach the knowledge that one attains. "What good is a Lock without a Key", it's useless. So if a Teacher cannot teach but has knowledge on how something works, that makes them useless to students. You my friend, are a Lock With The Key, Very Useful... Keep Making Videos because you do a great job explaining how things work...
Logically presented and explained! An excellent "hands on" presentation. Great video indeed. Thank you!
I'm one to admit when I make mistakes. After all, if you don't admit them, you're only lying to yourself.
(Some of us) learn from our mistakes.
I am currently a student in HVACR, and I am so glad that I am passionately scouring the Internet for as much knowledge and wisdom from veteran techs as I possibly can in order to go out in the field with some great information.
This video is a prime example of that powerful information. We (my class and I) just finished our first semester, where we learned about the basic refrigeration cycle, along with recovery, pulling a vacuum, etc. (Next semester is Controls and Heating Systems).
My instructor never once told us to leave our gauges open after reaching 500 microns.
He specifically told us to close everything off!
Even when we he taught everyone about electricity - specifically voltage - he never once mentioned the words 'potential difference'. He told them, "0 volts across a closed switch - that's just how the meter reads the electricity flowing through it."
When it came to operating service valves, he never mentioned the terms 'backseating' and/or 'frontseating'. Instead, he said, "You have to unscrew them (or tighten them)." 🤦♂
Anyway, I instinctively know now (after watching this video) that leaving our gauges open is the proper thing to do.
It's logical!
Tail Gate Trainer, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us by putting together this video. You have my subscription to your channel.
I think my instructor needs to get some more schooling, and some wisdom from you - the veteran tech. 😏
Damn that was spot on! I scratched my head big time yesterday, because of my vacuum kept failing. I applied your technic and I found the faulty hose. Thank you for sharing
very good instructions on how to trouble shoot your hose's . great info.
Nice. Very informative and to the point.
Excellent video! Your training material is very informative
Hello Sir, you are an awesome educator. thank you.
Thank you, sharing is the secret to leverageing each other's experiences, together we grow stronger.
this thing works great. I have used it in a couple of jobs and everything seems to work out fine I love it
You supposed to get millions of likes if all who understand the truth technician is ! Thank you,and god bless you!
Wow! That’s really helpful with me just purchased a latest model of fieldpiece digital gauge.
Thank you so much,
I just oder my first! SM480V itll get here on Thursday I can't wait!!
I’m in schools now for Hvac thanks great video!
That was awesome and helpful thank you very much
What a great lesson.
Your video was very helpful thank you for sharing. However I always leak test my Line Set and Evaporator coil with nitrogen for 30 min. before I do the evacuation of the system.
Just bought the SMAN 480v. Really excited for this. Hope it’s not too hard to learn at first
Great video
That's why it's best to not pull a vacuum through a manifold. Too many leak points to worry about , not to mention how much it slows the evac process.
Hmm that's an interesting point. I may try that.
Amazing video
Good explanation, just one thing I want to say is that the built in micron haha in all those smart gauges or electronic gauges truly suck and aren’t very accurate. Get a good external micron gauge and stop pulling a vacuum through your gauges all together, get the appion core removal tools and hook those up and run straight to your pump. You’ll hit 250 microns in 10 min
Thanks, that was useful 😁
Sounds like your directing this to a fellow worker who is struggling.
Reply to sman 360 question Add an in line isolation valve to the ref/ vacuum port then reinstall yellow or vacuum line so you can isolate with the 360
You should not be trying to pull a deep vacuum and test for a vacuum decay using rubber hoses.
Especially brand new rubber hoses that have been sitting in a bag for months absorbing moisture and at least takes a overnight vacuum to dry them out. (i’m not kidding).
And refrigerant manifolds were never really designed to pull extremely deep vacuum they’re only using rubber O-rings and seals.
I made a video on how to pull apart the piston assemblies and remove the O-rings fill the grooves with silicone grease and then reassemble the valve assemblies.
This will at least give the seals in the gauge themselves to ability to pull down I have gotten down to 10 µm.
If you feel the need to really use a set of refrigerant gages with a micron sensor located in the gauge and not on the system to pull in measure a deep vacuum and perform a vacuum decay test.
Toss the hoses away and make lines out of soft copper and flares with brass fittings then you have completely eliminated all possibilities of moisture and leakage. Unless you make a bad flare.
Gone through the steps on my videos.
But I do also have the advantage of having a vacuum pump that could pull all the way down to 3 µm.
And I actually had a set of gauges sitting on my shelf that are still under 800 µm after two months. A vacuum leak down decay test
Prefect.
Excellent video! Where do I sign up for you classes. Thank you!
great video, isn't the 500/1000 test harder to pass than 250/1000? thanks. i'm learning and your video was really helpful.
Great explanation - could you actually hold vacuum on any of those hoses? I’ve tried the same procedure on 2 sets of hoses, 1 new and 1 with new gaskets / rebuild and I fail miserably. The SMAN 460 itself hold pretty good (350 from 250 in 10 minutes) but any hose that I test I fail.
Yep
How do you calibrate the pressure side of the gauge? Every time I use it, I overcharge the system due to the gauge reading.
Do I need the 3/8 vacuum hose for the sman480 to pull a vacuum. Or can I just use the red yellow and blue
When pulling a vacuum on an existing system, will remaining refrigerant oil in the tubes affect your vacuum reading?
In my mind the oil will evaporate just like water and ruin your vacuum reading?
👍
My sman 360 was doing the same thing making it seem all hoses had an issue even new YJ good for vaccum. I called fieldpiece and and was told by the tech that i needed to use a recovery tank not just the manifold. Turns out tech was right. Just throwing it out there
Would you please elaborate more on the recovery tank part please?
You need to connect the hoses to an empty recovery tank using the high and low ports of the recovery tank and pull down below 500. Test one valve with its hose at a time for leaks. Use a good ball valve where the hose connects to the vaccum pump as a shut off. If your SMAN is good with this setup you will pass the 10 minute mark if you dont then theres a leak in your setup. Using the manifold by it self wont hold the vaccum even with good for vaccum new hoses. That was my experience which is why i contacted fielpiece and was told i needed a recovery tank setup and they were right. Hope this helps
You sound like Dr. Phil and I love it.
WhTs the max pressure the micron gauge can go to without damaging it?
👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾
How would you recommend doing the vacuum test with a 3 port sman that doesn’t have a vacuum port
Think about it
So only close the vacuum valve?
Watching this cause all my coworkers just pull down to below 500 and take off the pump 🤣
You demonstrated proves this what I said
Same issue with new sman 480v , all new hoses.fieldpie support said when pulling on just the manifold it won't look like it's holding because volume is so small any moisture that boils off will create enough pressure change to show it's not holding ,I'm not smart enough to know if that makes sense or not. Haven't used on system yet but it did hold nitrogen.
I don't use my smans to pull vacuums anymore, only as a last resort cuz of all the refrigerant oil in the hoses throw off the micron gauge
I'm going to buy the sman 460 anyway but wanted to ask would you recommend using the 460 to vacuum over using a single hose set up with a digital tor guage on the core remover?
As long as your not vacuuming a system like trane tem6 that has lock down txv 1 hose is fine better yet pull on both sides with two hoses and two core tools to a T
No I would just use one hose or bluon two hose set up.
In a pinch I will try to use the 480 but have seen challenges with vacuuming with them from time to time especially when using non vacuum rated hoses. I E charging hoses.
Thanks for the reply. Great video. Thanks for the content 👍
My SMAN360 leaks in vacuum about 30 microns/sec when under 200, the internal vacuum gauge is a sales gimmick with so many valves, hoses and internal parts that may leak. Save your sanity, get a separate vacuum gauge and a vacuum rated CRT
maybe thats exactly why u shouldnt even use the cages to pull a vaccuum?
Cool class, except this isnt a golden rule.
#1, leaking schrader cores arent caught during a decay test. For a couple of reasons, 1, the core should be pulled for an efficient vacuum. 2, youre hooked up to them and if they leak, its into your isolated circuit.
#2 factory welds can absolutely pass today and from vibration and harmonics from compressor fail weeks down the road. See it on resi packs enough to know.
Finally, smans are great but Id recommend pulling a vacuum without a manifold in refrigerant circuit series. Too many things to leak during deep vacuum. With that said, Ive done it frequently as well. Id recommend if you insist, pull all your valves on the smans and get a light coat of silicone on the seals to protect and get a better seal.
Best take-away from this video is frequent testing and maintenance of your manifold and hoses. Better to stay up than have to get up in the field. Thanks for the class!
I want this tools.
great video
What charging hose do you use?
what a great video
Hence charging hose not vacuum hoses. You shouldn't pull a vacuum thru colored charging hoses.
When 410a and micron guages etc. came around 12years ago or whatever, it was stated back then that standard charging hoses could not be used for vacuum do to permeability of the hose. They said the same thing about plastic POE oil bottles having permeability and absorbing moisture in the bottle.
It was also warned about pulling too fast a vacuum and crystalizing any mosture droplets.
This is all common knowledge
It is so hard to get people to enter this trade based on working conditions alone. We dont need "teachers" filling them with misinforation.
This video is RIPE with misinformation and incorrect procedure.
Sounds just like my fishfinder.
I’m in the middle of not being able to pull a vac on a unit.. only getting down to 1300.. I put it under a nitrogen charge overnight.
I don’t think I have any leaks but I’m only pulling down to 1300 and hanging there..😡
Hey brother do you have a video on cleaning the micron sensor on the sman460 im curious on how to do it
@Sfc Ahr what type of alcohol? Is shellite ok?
I got my gauges on the vaccum and the micron screen isn't showing up
Do you think it is better to not run your vacuum through your manifold gauge?
Absolutely. But this company I was hired to train wouldn't buy the separate gage until we saw how many defective manifolds we bought and abandoned pulling vacuums with them. Some right out of the box wouldn't hold, some vacuum rated hoses actually leaked. Once we adopted the one hose method with the appion valve core tool most evacuation problems evaporated.
Can you pull a vacuum on a small residential system (~2 ton) with a large vacuum pump like that? Is there such thing as too big?
Not so big a deal as you may hear
@@HVACTailGateTrainer Awesome, thank you!
Today I pulled to 245 and 1 hour later I was at 445. Is that acceptable? What is an acceptable amount of movement during a 10 minute vacuum hold test ?
Not to exceed 1000 microns in 10 minutes is published in goodman installation, carrier published only a 7.5 minute test to 1000 max (which is too weak of a standard for my preference), Lennox says not to exceed 500 in 20 minutes, but tools get & used worn, & aren’t always as tight as we like so the goodman 1000/10 minute is what we use.
Thank u I had no idea. I usually close my Appion valve core tools after pumping down below 500. I usually lose anywhere from nothing to 150 microns in 10 minutes. So I guess I’m doing ok. I also pump down again real quick and then release the freon. Just so the system is as clean and dry as possible.
I need
Can the vacuum be pulled with sman that doesn't have the vacuum port?
As of the models available when video was made, no. Not unless you add an isolation in line valve to middle hoe on manifold or on the pump which adds another hose yellow, a a possible source of leakage in the mix. Don’t use the manifold for microns, just add a separate micron gage to the end of the line at the liquid service port. Its the best place to measure it and once down to 250 close your manifold valves to isolate.
Your vacuum pump is slow as hell, it should have gone down below 200 microns in mere seconds if you only have hoses connected to your manifold gauge.
Did you close gas ballast?
yes
🤣🤣🤣 I was thinking the same thing.
Is it real vacuum? This fieldpiece is false VAC micrones ?
Makes me don't even want to buy this manifold anymore
My jb micron leaked right out the box
lol This gauge leaks if the valves when open. great all other jobs not vacuum. poor packing setup. 2 o-ring not sealing.
You shouldn’t pull a vacuum though your gauges. You should be pulling a vacuum through vacuum rated hoses and a micron gauge
You never pull a vacuum thru guages because what you read at the smans isn't counting the hoses which adds about 300ish per hose..At 500 on your smans your not even below 1000 in actually vacuum.
Uhhh not how that works lmao
@ebaum1000 Your an idiot. Put a micron Guage at the end of just 1 hose and hook it to a vacuum pump so you can learn.
Why are you using a vacuum to determine if there is a leak? Even if you were able to pull a perfect vacuum, all you would be relying on is atmospheric pressure trying to get into the system. Do you know what atmospheric pressure is? It is only about 14.5 psi. And yet an ac system does not operate under a vacuum does it? It operates under pressure. Pressure testing with nitrogen is far, far, far, far superior. Did I say it was FAR superior? Yes I did. No comparison at all, no contest. Nitrogen pressure testing is superior to testing with 14.5 PSI of atmospheric air trying to get in. Period!
You train your students to pull vacuum thru gauges ? That’s Not the proper technique.
I am going to seriously try to temper my response and educate YOU without calling you a self righteous POS.
I recently installed a new system. Pulled my lineset and coil to 139 microns.
It rose to 159 microns after 15minutes.
I opened the shraders and my lineset pressure only rose to +/-30psi.
At that point I realized I had either a low fill or a leak in the condenser from the factory.
Visual inspection: there were no marks in the packaging OR oil in the condenser.
I charged the unit to the required SC figuring low fill at the factory.
Three weeks later I get the call of a freeze up. Because it was a business and couldnt be without ac AND what I had witnessed I came back, cut the condenser loose and brought it back to my shop.
The unit has a leak from the factory that only opens at +200psi. Its at the bottom of the fifth connection up from the bottom of the condenser coil distributor.
I couldnt find it till i cleared it with nitrogen and then pressurized it to 300psi. It took +/- 60mins or better for an INACTIVE caccoon to form. (I let it sit after giving up on it and checked it again a hour or so later. Was actually surprised to see it)
So there u are, how us STUPID installers can have a leak within the first year of operation. What a SIN it is to be so dumb.
OH!!!, some more education for you. How about all the Goodman shrader seals that shrunk in the winters releasing the charge only to reseal the next spring? Were you not in the field during that time?
Yep, youre a teacher and thats why u come out of the gate within the first minute calling installers stupid that they should have a leak within the first year.
Go ahead delete the comment so no one can see YOUR error.
Ur such an intelligent asshole
@@ridgep551 Thank you.
Most people don’t even use manifolds to pull vacuum anymore
You want your micron gage closest to the system as possible it could be a 300 micron difference by you manifold gauges
Less fittings less leaks