Islam is seen as a monolith in France as it is the element in common for the repeated acts of terrorism and limitations of liberties they have had to endure for the past 10-20 years. That is the element in common and not colonialism, Haitians or Vietnamese are not wreaking havoc in France.
So, let's see if I've understood. "Muslims" don't actually constitute a community called "Muslims" because this category can also be subdivided? So would it be correct to similarly state that Muslim identity isn't primarily determined by membership of the Umma? Because I'd always understood that to be the case. How wonderful that we have intellectuals like Adam Shatz to set us straight.
+Pan oRoya I think Shatz sees community and identity as two different ideas. My friend in Cairo and the Islamist chopping off heads in Syria both self-identify as Muslims, and yet the two detest each other and act in utterly different ways. To put it another way. "community" is defined by how a given group acts in the political and social realms. If you accept that (rough) definition, then yes, clearly it is possible to have different and distinct communities within a single identity. I think all Shatz is really saying is that it is a mistake to assume that Muslims, or indeed any "other" viewed from the outside, is monolithic.
@@deino117 What really matters is, is there anti-western muslims in the western world, are they a threat to our culture and way of life? The answer is YES. Should we be concerned, YES! Are all muslims alike, of course not. All cats are not gray but that doesn´t change anything, there are way to many of these "gray cats" and this is a problem. Houllebecq is a writer of fiction, thankfully the submission of the french people to Islam is not a fact, but a speculation. Can it happen, not likely but the fear is real and should be taken seriously.
What I think is happening (take this with a big grain of salt) is that the western and the eastern world, in terms of Europe and the Middle East, is that they are merging interms of both economics and culture. Capitalism in the Middle East is growing, especially a post-modern form of capitalism which comes from European and American influences. This form of capitalism needs a hyper-individualistic culture to flourish. This hyper individualism violently counters Islamic religion that is deeply ruted in the Middle East in almost every social crevice, from behavior to even the arabic language itself. But as Capitalism is a much more dominant force because of its connection to the material conditions it is letting, slowly, but steadily, a form of secularism to slither into the Arab countries. This slow unstoppable force of capitalism, which carries some enlightenment and progressive ideas around its neck, causes a form of counter-reacting radicalism inside the Middle East. In Europe, after the fall of the soviet union, capitalism has become the one economic system. But as a result of this, we have become spiritually deprived. What I think Submission is about, is for the human desire for holiness. That there are subjects you do not question. Social and cultural pillars that can never be nudged. In the book, the merchant that can bring us this holiness to our godforsaken land, is islam. As it is a religon that does not have a New Testament, does not have a reform, that has not been forced to adapt to capitalism. The book suggests that we might be so deprived that we will accept it unwillingly, as it is Europes only chance to feel the warmth of something holy or to find some rest inside a new dark age. But what it happening is not a switch, its more so an incestual merger. The Middle East and Europe have an unknown ancestry, as they have both been building blocks in the their own evolution. But there has always been this divide of, this is European culture "The West", if you will, and the Middle Eastern culture "Muslim culture", if you will. But now those charicatistics are being blurred. And by not being able to see our differences, we are not joining in a liberal globalist embrace, but a freakish and eldritch fusion that will leave us not as one, but two conjoined bodies that can not tell one from the other.
I dont think this man understand the purpose or acting force of literature. Fictive literature is supposed be reflective but not of an obvious pollitical reality. 1984 didn't actually happen. Houllbecq's incredible book, and it is like a magic trick in regards to how well it is written, allows us to engage in an idea which is in the zeitgeist. Because it is art (genuine art) it also picks up the pieces through its ascetic. If we are looking for a realistic critical edge in it then it is probably just as critical of pollitics and polliticians as Islam. Probably more so.
Strange how you talk about what the French did to Algeria, and it makes sense, given how "recent" in was in the grand scheme of history; however, you never once mention why they invaded the former Barbary Coast country in the first place. Very strange indeed.
glad you can convince yourself of your superior reasoning skills:D and btw your commitment to, and observance of intellectual proprieties really sticks out :P
Read it ...like all of his books..it is incredibly well written. I read it in 8 hours. Perhaps no his very best. Id still give that to the elementary particles or the map and the territory...but a small masterpiece none the less
This interview is an absolute sham of intellectualism.
Islam is seen as a monolith in France as it is the element in common for the repeated acts of terrorism and limitations of liberties they have had to endure for the past 10-20 years. That is the element in common and not colonialism, Haitians or Vietnamese are not wreaking havoc in France.
So, let's see if I've understood. "Muslims" don't actually constitute a community called "Muslims" because this category can also be subdivided? So would it be correct to similarly state that Muslim identity isn't primarily determined by membership of the Umma? Because I'd always understood that to be the case. How wonderful that we have intellectuals like Adam Shatz to set us straight.
+Pan oRoya I think Shatz sees community and identity as two different ideas. My friend in Cairo and the Islamist chopping off heads in Syria both self-identify as Muslims, and yet the two detest each other and act in utterly different ways. To put it another way. "community" is defined by how a given group acts in the political and social realms. If you accept that (rough) definition, then yes, clearly it is possible to have different and distinct communities within a single identity. I think all Shatz is really saying is that it is a mistake to assume that Muslims, or indeed any "other" viewed from the outside, is monolithic.
@@deino117 What really matters is, is there anti-western muslims in the western world, are they a threat to our culture and way of life? The answer is YES. Should we be concerned, YES! Are all muslims alike, of course not. All cats are not gray but that doesn´t change anything, there are way to many of these "gray cats" and this is a problem. Houllebecq is a writer of fiction, thankfully the submission of the french people to Islam is not a fact, but a speculation. Can it happen, not likely but the fear is real and should be taken seriously.
That guy knows nothing about literature critic, the ideas analyzed in novels.
What I think is happening (take this with a big grain of salt) is that the western and the eastern world, in terms of Europe and the Middle East, is that they are merging interms of both economics and culture.
Capitalism in the Middle East is growing, especially a post-modern form of capitalism which comes from European and American influences. This form of capitalism needs a hyper-individualistic culture to flourish. This hyper individualism violently counters Islamic religion that is deeply ruted in the Middle East in almost every social crevice, from behavior to even the arabic language itself. But as Capitalism is a much more dominant force because of its connection to the material conditions it is letting, slowly, but steadily, a form of secularism to slither into the Arab countries. This slow unstoppable force of capitalism, which carries some enlightenment and progressive ideas around its neck, causes a form of counter-reacting radicalism inside the Middle East.
In Europe, after the fall of the soviet union, capitalism has become the one economic system. But as a result of this, we have become spiritually deprived. What I think Submission is about, is for the human desire for holiness. That there are subjects you do not question. Social and cultural pillars that can never be nudged. In the book, the merchant that can bring us this holiness to our godforsaken land, is islam. As it is a religon that does not have a New Testament, does not have a reform, that has not been forced to adapt to capitalism. The book suggests that we might be so deprived that we will accept it unwillingly, as it is Europes only chance to feel the warmth of something holy or to find some rest inside a new dark age.
But what it happening is not a switch, its more so an incestual merger. The Middle East and Europe have an unknown ancestry, as they have both been building blocks in the their own evolution. But there has always been this divide of, this is European culture "The West", if you will, and the Middle Eastern culture "Muslim culture", if you will. But now those charicatistics are being blurred. And by not being able to see our differences, we are not joining in a liberal globalist embrace, but a freakish and eldritch fusion that will leave us not as one, but two conjoined bodies that can not tell one from the other.
I dont think this man understand the purpose or acting force of literature. Fictive literature is supposed be reflective but not of an obvious pollitical reality. 1984 didn't actually happen. Houllbecq's incredible book, and it is like a magic trick in regards to how well it is written, allows us to engage in an idea which is in the zeitgeist. Because it is art (genuine art) it also picks up the pieces through its ascetic. If we are looking for a realistic critical edge in it then it is probably just as critical of pollitics and polliticians as Islam. Probably more so.
Useless.
Strange how you talk about what the French did to Algeria, and it makes sense, given how "recent" in was in the grand scheme of history; however, you never once mention why they invaded the former Barbary Coast country in the first place.
Very strange indeed.
Great to get debate and discussion.......let people read freely and explore....
those i see objecting to adam shatz here have suspiciously few reasonable arguments to offer :)
and you have no arguments either! XD
***** thats not true but ok
glad you can convince yourself of your superior reasoning skills:D
and btw your commitment to, and observance of intellectual proprieties really sticks out :P
mongo.
***** Touché!
Shatz is a brilliant essayist, always enjoy reading his work.
deny, deny, deny.......
2PC4U
+Dorian Lee 2pac 4eva
2PACALYPSENOW
I havent read the book but intend to. Interesting discussion, thank you.
Read it ...like all of his books..it is incredibly well written. I read it in 8 hours. Perhaps no his very best. Id still give that to the elementary particles or the map and the territory...but a small masterpiece none the less