As for the Yoshino battery being solid state or not, I haven't done any lab analysis or anything like that. But I'll just say this: It has a similar amount of liquid in it to a standard LiFe battery, it doesn't charge any faster than "standard" batteries, it doesn't have more energy density than other Lithium-NMC batteries, and it sure doesn't seem any safer than an LiFe battery. So if it is, somehow, able to be called "solid state," then I think we need to narrow the definition of solid state quite a bit. And I don't think the Yoshino battery is what most people would expect from a "solid state" battery.
Turns out we've been using solid state batteries since LiFe batteries invention lmao. In all seriousness, quite sad we still don't have a real solid state to see out there :(
One thing I think you could look at with the equipment you have is to measure the energy density of the cells themselves and compare that to other batteries and chemistries. This I think would be very helpful in determining if there is anything new. You could measure the size of the cell, and at least use the nameplate capacity as i'm sure people have verified they aren't crazy off when inside the whole power station.
Shady marketing not just regarding their "claim" of using SSB's in their power units, but their false claim that they are an "American" Company using "Japanese" Battery Tech, using a "Japanese" name (Yoshino), when in fact they just have a warehouse in the City of Industry in California where most Chinese imports are processed/warehoused, and is in fact a Chinese Company based in China. They've been updating their website as the lies get exposed, but you can use the wayback machine to see their prior claims.
Solid state battery use a β-alumina ceramic kept under high mechanical pressure. They are built in a strong steel casing. There are no "hybrid" solid state battery. If there is liquid electrolyte inside a battery, the entire ions flow will pass thru the liquid, avoiding the solid part. Solid-state batteries do not use the materials used in standard cathodes (nichel, manganese, cobalt).
You may be 100% correct that there is, and never will be, any definition of a solid state battery, or any other variation to them than what you've laid out. I would be happy to hear the case for that. But, for better or worse, terms like "semi-solid state" (as well as other proposed configurations for solid state than what you've laid out) are out there and being used heavily, all over the place. That doesn't make it correct. That's partly why I made this video. There is clearly still confusion and disagreement about solid state batteries. Cool. Let's discuss it.
I wonder if their claim of "4000 Cycles to 80% Capacity" is legit. Standard NMC/NCM usually tops out at about 1000 cycles to 80%. It's LiFePO4 that can go for thousands of cycles.
I wish I could test that, but I don't see it happening. To be thorough, I'd need to test multiple batteries for thousands of cycles. Unfortunately, I don't have time for a series of tests like that.
Companies need to be held accountable for deceptive marketing, and claims. This is our safety and lives. If one of these things fail and goes "nuclear" for example, at minimum, it can lead to property damage, worst, lost life. Actual "Solid State" batteries I've seen you an actively cut a fully charged cell while it's powering something, and all that happens is you lose capacity. No flame, no heat.
Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to test that. To get an accurate result, I'd have to test multiple batteries for thousands of cycles each (unless their capacity dropped of far more quickly than Yoshino claims).
@@bullithedjames937 not happy to hear that... BUT may i ask a couple questions ? which model did you have the problem with ? and did you receive new one as a replacement ? i have both the 330 and 660 but the 660 will not go to 100% on charging ( whereas the 330 does not have this issue ) it just sits there and keeps on running as IF it was still charging when its not.. im especially interested because i still have time to return and also they owe me about 125$ on the price match guarantee since they went one sale. i also purchased the 100w solar panel... thanks for replying !
I don't get this obsession with solid vs non-solid battery cells. It's a power station designed to convert DC to AC and run appliances. If that is why you bought it, then this design is superior because it has a significantly higher continuous output, weighs less, it has a smaller footprint and recharges faster. End of story. However, if you bought it (or are thinking about buying it) for target practice, use it as a boat anchor or as ammo in trebuchet long-distance competition events, then your concerns are more than justified.
That's the thing, though. It doesn't have significantly higher continuous output, lower weight, smaller footprint, or faster recharging than the competition. Compared spec for spec with the competition, Yoshino's smaller power stations actually fall short of many competing options. Their largest unit may have a slight weight advantage over some competitive models, but nothing significant. Lots of companies have been working on "solid state" batteries for years, promising that they will usher in revolutionary leaps in energy density, recharge speed, and safety. People are excited by the prospect and what it will mean for all kinds of industries moving forward. When a company claimed to have the first ever solid state batteries in a product, it was a big deal. And the company knew it, which is why they pushed "solid state" so heavily in the marketing. But these "solid state" batteries were in consumer power stations that seemed to be relatively in line with what was already available from a dozen other companies. So the specs weren't the revolution people expected. But what about safety? Well, as it turns out, they really aren't any less likely to have a thermal runaway, and it's certainly no less violent when they do, than what you get from standard LiFePO batteries. And, as it turns out, they also have liquid electrolyte in them. That's basically the main thing "solid state" batteries supposedly don't have. It's not an obsession. It's just a new company that made dubious claims about a technology that many people are interested in.
@@bigtb1717 Absolutely not true. In the case of their largest unit, that model produces 4KW of continuous power with 6KW peak. That is a lot more than all of its competitors in the same class. And recharges from 0 to 80% in just over an hour when plugged into the wall. I dare you to find anything better except maybe Bluetti 5KW class which is a lot bigger physically and can't operate by itself. It needs a standalone battery which adds even more weight. Also, you don't understand what the word solid-state means in the battery industry as of now. It means non-liquid electrolyte. It doesn't mean solid electrolyte because such batteries exist only in labs and are still under development. No one on this planet has a working, tested and production ready 100% solid electrolyte battery.
Their largest unit, the B4000, does have a weight advantage, and an output wattage advantage over similar machines. Jackery has a unit that is only a little heavier, has 3KW of output, and has approximately 15% more battery capacity. I feel like that's a better balanced machine. If I needed 4,000 watts of output, I'd probably also want more than 2,600 watt hours of battery capacity. But that's just me. The B4000 does have some advantages. But Yoshino's smaller units actually fall behind the competition when it comes to many specs. I'm just saying that it isn't a revolutionary difference. In a battle of specs, they trade blows with the competition. It's not the revolutionary advance that many people, maybe wrongly, expected solid state batteries to bring. You say that solid state just means non-liquid, but Yoshino's batteries do contain liquid solvent electrolytes. Not a lot, but about the same amount as other pouch cell batteries I've opened. I don't think it's out of line to point out that Yoshino claims their cells contain no liquid and nothing flammable. And neither of those things are true. If someone decides they still qualify as solid state, that's fine. But if that's the case, then so do many other cells that have been available for many years.
@@bigtb1717 What you want is your personal thing. However, facts are facts. 4KW is more than 3KW and no amount of arrows shot into the device will change that. Also, the battery chemistry that this company chose is of greater density which means more power per square inch inside each cell. More power, smaller footprint, less weight, I hope this is not too controversial. As far as flammability is concerned, the company never said that the product is fireproof, but that it is less likely to burst into flames when compared to traditional Li-Ion batteries. And certainly not when attempting to short-circuit it by jamming metal objects such as arrows into it. Finally, even a child would understand that when you rip something open, turn it upside down and nothing comes out, that means that the contents of that pouch must be solid. Hence the company's claim solid-state. Again, not to be confused with solid electrolytes which, as mentioned before, no one on this planet possesses outside a lab.
I'm happy to hear your input. What hairs am I splitting? Honestly. Feel free to correct me and point to any info on the subject you think would help make things more clear. Yoshino themselves say that having liquid electrolytes and being flammable are issues with "standard" lithium ion batteries. They claim their batteries get away from these issues. Clearly they don't entirely do so. They contain liquid and can still burn rather violently in some situation. But marketing is marketing. I'm all for proper, technical info getting out there so people know what's what and what to look for when it comes to judging the claims made by companies.
@@bigtb1717 also I don't care if they catch on fire after being shot with arrow im never going to have that problem. Can it do that on its own? if not. What ate we talking about here? Semantics basically. It does not fit your narrow def of solid state battery.
My issue is that it doesn't fit Yoshino's definition of a solid state battery. They have a ton of marketing that claims that the "problem" with "standard" lithium ion batteries is that they contain flammable liquids and can run away thermally and catch fire. They claim their batteries don't contain any liquid electrolytes, don't contain flammable materials, and are much safer than standard lithium ion batteries. But they do contain flammable, liquid electrolytes, they are NMC which can violently run away thermally, and they don't seem to be any safer than "standard" LiFe-PO4 batteries, which are widely available.
As for the Yoshino battery being solid state or not, I haven't done any lab analysis or anything like that. But I'll just say this: It has a similar amount of liquid in it to a standard LiFe battery, it doesn't charge any faster than "standard" batteries, it doesn't have more energy density than other Lithium-NMC batteries, and it sure doesn't seem any safer than an LiFe battery. So if it is, somehow, able to be called "solid state," then I think we need to narrow the definition of solid state quite a bit. And I don't think the Yoshino battery is what most people would expect from a "solid state" battery.
Turns out we've been using solid state batteries since LiFe batteries invention lmao. In all seriousness, quite sad we still don't have a real solid state to see out there :(
One thing I think you could look at with the equipment you have is to measure the energy density of the cells themselves and compare that to other batteries and chemistries. This I think would be very helpful in determining if there is anything new. You could measure the size of the cell, and at least use the nameplate capacity as i'm sure people have verified they aren't crazy off when inside the whole power station.
Shady marketing not just regarding their "claim" of using SSB's in their power units, but their false claim that they are an "American" Company using "Japanese" Battery Tech, using a "Japanese" name (Yoshino), when in fact they just have a warehouse in the City of Industry in California where most Chinese imports are processed/warehoused, and is in fact a Chinese Company based in China. They've been updating their website as the lies get exposed, but you can use the wayback machine to see their prior claims.
"solid state" battery is not what most people would expect but rather a few EV hypers/fanboys like and lie to expect 😁
Its not a Solid state battery, not even close. The packs are LiPo NMC with graphene. There is no such thing as a hybrid solid state battery either.
Solid state battery use a β-alumina ceramic kept under high mechanical pressure. They are built in a strong steel casing.
There are no "hybrid" solid state battery. If there is liquid electrolyte inside a battery, the entire ions flow will pass thru the liquid, avoiding the solid part.
Solid-state batteries do not use the materials used in standard cathodes (nichel, manganese, cobalt).
You may be 100% correct that there is, and never will be, any definition of a solid state battery, or any other variation to them than what you've laid out. I would be happy to hear the case for that. But, for better or worse, terms like "semi-solid state" (as well as other proposed configurations for solid state than what you've laid out) are out there and being used heavily, all over the place. That doesn't make it correct. That's partly why I made this video. There is clearly still confusion and disagreement about solid state batteries. Cool. Let's discuss it.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck.
Probally a Moose.. lol
or a witch!
Or duck-robot
I appreciate the follow up video 👍
Excellent video! I've pinned a link to it on my review of the yoshino b4000.
I wonder if their claim of "4000 Cycles to 80% Capacity" is legit. Standard NMC/NCM usually tops out at about 1000 cycles to 80%. It's LiFePO4 that can go for thousands of cycles.
I wish I could test that, but I don't see it happening. To be thorough, I'd need to test multiple batteries for thousands of cycles. Unfortunately, I don't have time for a series of tests like that.
Brand new, revolutionary solid-state cells!
*if you submerge them in LN2
Yo! She no solid.
If you need non-conducting sharp cutters, couldn't you use ceramic ones instead of plastics?
Lol, I could have, but that one was super cheap, and sort of worked.
Companies need to be held accountable for deceptive marketing, and claims. This is our safety and lives. If one of these things fail and goes "nuclear" for example, at minimum, it can lead to property damage, worst, lost life.
Actual "Solid State" batteries I've seen you an actively cut a fully charged cell while it's powering something, and all that happens is you lose capacity. No flame, no heat.
What's the charge cycle endurance?
Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to test that. To get an accurate result, I'd have to test multiple batteries for thousands of cycles each (unless their capacity dropped of far more quickly than Yoshino claims).
@@bigtb1717What's Yoshino's own claim about their battery's charge cycle longevity?
They claim 80% capacity after 4,000 cycles.
@@bigtb1717 Thanks for the prompt response. That smells like LFP chemistry.
@@bigtb1717 3 months 8 cycles
Is this making NMC this safe ?
with a 5 yr warranty i am not worried... IF they do not honor it i will be.
Mine stopped charging not even 4months only 8 cycles.
@@bullithedjames937 not happy to hear that... BUT may i ask a couple questions ? which model did you have the problem with ? and did you receive new one as a replacement ? i have both the 330 and 660 but the 660 will not go to 100% on charging ( whereas the 330 does not have this issue ) it just sits there and keeps on running as IF it was still charging when its not.. im especially interested because i still have time to return and also they owe me about 125$ on the price match guarantee since they went one sale. i also purchased the 100w solar panel... thanks for replying !
@KtotheL the 660 I've reached out to them I haven't heard anything back yet. But I'll give it some time
fk I wish I had these videos before buying one....
I don't get this obsession with solid vs non-solid battery cells. It's a power station designed to convert DC to AC and run appliances. If that is why you bought it, then this design is superior because it has a significantly higher continuous output, weighs less, it has a smaller footprint and recharges faster. End of story. However, if you bought it (or are thinking about buying it) for target practice, use it as a boat anchor or as ammo in trebuchet long-distance competition events, then your concerns are more than justified.
That's the thing, though. It doesn't have significantly higher continuous output, lower weight, smaller footprint, or faster recharging than the competition. Compared spec for spec with the competition, Yoshino's smaller power stations actually fall short of many competing options. Their largest unit may have a slight weight advantage over some competitive models, but nothing significant.
Lots of companies have been working on "solid state" batteries for years, promising that they will usher in revolutionary leaps in energy density, recharge speed, and safety. People are excited by the prospect and what it will mean for all kinds of industries moving forward. When a company claimed to have the first ever solid state batteries in a product, it was a big deal. And the company knew it, which is why they pushed "solid state" so heavily in the marketing. But these "solid state" batteries were in consumer power stations that seemed to be relatively in line with what was already available from a dozen other companies. So the specs weren't the revolution people expected. But what about safety? Well, as it turns out, they really aren't any less likely to have a thermal runaway, and it's certainly no less violent when they do, than what you get from standard LiFePO batteries. And, as it turns out, they also have liquid electrolyte in them. That's basically the main thing "solid state" batteries supposedly don't have. It's not an obsession. It's just a new company that made dubious claims about a technology that many people are interested in.
@@bigtb1717 Absolutely not true. In the case of their largest unit, that model produces 4KW of continuous power with 6KW peak. That is a lot more than all of its competitors in the same class. And recharges from 0 to 80% in just over an hour when plugged into the wall. I dare you to find anything better except maybe Bluetti 5KW class which is a lot bigger physically and can't operate by itself. It needs a standalone battery which adds even more weight. Also, you don't understand what the word solid-state means in the battery industry as of now. It means non-liquid electrolyte. It doesn't mean solid electrolyte because such batteries exist only in labs and are still under development. No one on this planet has a working, tested and production ready 100% solid electrolyte battery.
Their largest unit, the B4000, does have a weight advantage, and an output wattage advantage over similar machines. Jackery has a unit that is only a little heavier, has 3KW of output, and has approximately 15% more battery capacity. I feel like that's a better balanced machine. If I needed 4,000 watts of output, I'd probably also want more than 2,600 watt hours of battery capacity. But that's just me. The B4000 does have some advantages. But Yoshino's smaller units actually fall behind the competition when it comes to many specs. I'm just saying that it isn't a revolutionary difference. In a battle of specs, they trade blows with the competition. It's not the revolutionary advance that many people, maybe wrongly, expected solid state batteries to bring.
You say that solid state just means non-liquid, but Yoshino's batteries do contain liquid solvent electrolytes. Not a lot, but about the same amount as other pouch cell batteries I've opened. I don't think it's out of line to point out that Yoshino claims their cells contain no liquid and nothing flammable. And neither of those things are true. If someone decides they still qualify as solid state, that's fine. But if that's the case, then so do many other cells that have been available for many years.
@@bigtb1717 What you want is your personal thing. However, facts are facts. 4KW is more than 3KW and no amount of arrows shot into the device will change that. Also, the battery chemistry that this company chose is of greater density which means more power per square inch inside each cell. More power, smaller footprint, less weight, I hope this is not too controversial. As far as flammability is concerned, the company never said that the product is fireproof, but that it is less likely to burst into flames when compared to traditional Li-Ion batteries. And certainly not when attempting to short-circuit it by jamming metal objects such as arrows into it. Finally, even a child would understand that when you rip something open, turn it upside down and nothing comes out, that means that the contents of that pouch must be solid. Hence the company's claim solid-state. Again, not to be confused with solid electrolytes which, as mentioned before, no one on this planet possesses outside a lab.
Keep calling out the BS. Yoshino should be ashamed.
Lame video……😂
Sure your not splitting hairs you dont quite understand? By your own words, your no expert.
I'm happy to hear your input. What hairs am I splitting? Honestly. Feel free to correct me and point to any info on the subject you think would help make things more clear.
Yoshino themselves say that having liquid electrolytes and being flammable are issues with "standard" lithium ion batteries. They claim their batteries get away from these issues. Clearly they don't entirely do so. They contain liquid and can still burn rather violently in some situation. But marketing is marketing. I'm all for proper, technical info getting out there so people know what's what and what to look for when it comes to judging the claims made by companies.
@@bigtb1717 is the liquid an electrolyte? Thought you said in video that you were not sure.
@@bigtb1717 also I don't care if they catch on fire after being shot with arrow
im never going to have that problem. Can it do that on its own? if not. What ate we talking about here? Semantics basically. It does not fit your narrow def of solid state battery.
It is definitely a liquid electrolyte. It is listed in the SDS.
My issue is that it doesn't fit Yoshino's definition of a solid state battery. They have a ton of marketing that claims that the "problem" with "standard" lithium ion batteries is that they contain flammable liquids and can run away thermally and catch fire. They claim their batteries don't contain any liquid electrolytes, don't contain flammable materials, and are much safer than standard lithium ion batteries. But they do contain flammable, liquid electrolytes, they are NMC which can violently run away thermally, and they don't seem to be any safer than "standard" LiFe-PO4 batteries, which are widely available.