The only alternative I can think of to that joke would be a long pause followed by at least 5 minutes of nonstop fast verbal discourse about the entire history of the number system up to the current day. That would have been amusing too. But yeah; I did chuckle at their version too.
@@Jefbracke That doesn't even make any sense. Even if it meant as a joke. Unless it was a slightly surreal or strange one. So let me ask; does your giraffe wear a top hat while eating hypothetical penguin's boots?
One big advantage that number system has: all numbers take up the same amount of space, no matter how big or small. Which is really neat, especially for stuff like page numbers.
@@DvDick I strongly suspect it could be. In fact, with the right rules and learning, even this system should be. After all, it's just a positional number system represented differently. There is little 'logic' in the fact that the symbols '11+37' become '48' or that '5×7' becomes '35'; it's only that we understand the symbols well enough and how to manipulate them. I'm sure there are plenty of computer geeks who can manipulate binary or hex without 'translating them back' into decimal to do the calculations. Certainly computers themselves do; they _have_ to. Maybe some things (anything to do with decimals, or powers etc.) could become hard. But I don't think it would be impossible to tweak the system so it was possible. But I may be completely wrong. I have a maths degree; so I've not used 'numbers' for decades. (Apart from Sudoku, where they are totally irrelevant.) 😉
@@Varksterable Basic binary calculations are pretty easy. In fact, most addition/substractions doesn't even need to be "calculated", just pay attention to what digits to "flip" and there you are, without even knowing what the actual answer is 😅
@@Zeru64_ Exactly. As it is with this system. As it is with decimal. Just move the digits along as you add up pairs and carry anything left over into the next column. But what about other calculations? Calculate (4.67^5.2)/(ln(49)×67) but all in binary. Not quite so easy, is it? I'm sure I couldn't to that precisely in decimal either. But I could at least have a try at approximating it. In binary? No chance. And you say you wouldn't even know what the answer was? Then is that really 'solving' the calculation? To end up with a meaningless answer isn't really much use. It's like saying what is 38*41+76? Answer: "some number." But my point is that this isn't a flaw in the symbolic representation. It's just that I've spent 40+ years using decimals and understanding how to manipulate them.
i thought the exactly same thing, but I created my own probably easier system, 1,2,3 and 4 are the same, but 5 gets 6's symbol. from there you just add. 6=5+1, 7=5+2 and so on. i showed the monks system and then my new system, to some people who didn't know about this, and they preferred my system more. i first tried making 3= 1+2. but it got weird and difficult to draw with the higher numbers.
Since I was 12, I have often tried to create a number system like this one, where larger numbers just added something to the simpler numbers representing a higher value. I wanted a lot of numbers to be represented by just one character. This video showed me that I wasn't just crazy. Not only have people had the same idea, they also implemented it
"It was a secret number system, and it didn't really catch on..." I think maybe "catching on" would have defeated the whole purpose behind its "secrecy" :)
All writing started as secret systems. There were only a few writers of Minoan Linear B alive at any given time, for instance, determined from subtle variations in writing style.
It's actually quite simple to do math with cistercian numerals, if you write them in sequence, add up corresponding corners, and occasionally take care of the carry. They're basically base-10,000 numerals in a positional system.
When he started doing the digits from 0 to 9 I was expecting to see a cross, but I was mistaken. 5 is 4 + 1, makes perfect sense 6 is "yeah I'll just put this floating dash here" then it makes sense again, being 7 is 6 + 1 8 is 6 + 2 9 is 6 + 1 + 2
Well it's semi obtuse, but that was probably on purpose. Individual numbers having unique symbols, and a way to write 4 digit numbers, technically you could adapt this to modern numbers just by making a way to add 4 digit chunks together, essentially making decimal nibbles.
for fun i created my own probably easier system, 1,2,3 and 4 are the same, but 5 gets the "floating dash" instead of 6. from there you just add. 6=5+1, 7=5+2 and so on. i showed the monks system and then my new system, to some people who didn't know about this, and they preferred my system more. i first tried making 3= 1+2. but it got weird and difficult to draw with the higher numbers.
Maybe they never really kept a vow of silence, just made very long pauses, and people didn't wait for them to finish and assumed they were under a vow.
One interesting quirk that this number system has is that you can see which digits in a number are odd by seeing if they form a vertex at the end of the stem. I wonder if that's due to the way the system was originally constructed.
Interestingly, note that 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 each have their own unique single line representation, while the others are compounds of them (added together).
The Cistercians heavily influenced aesthetics. Anyone who has visited a Cistercian Abbey such as the marvelous one at Sénanque has to have experienced awe at how a heavily built structure with small windows can yet admit so much light and feel airy. Loved learning this today! Thanks for every Numberphile video.
@@dirtmanmapping Aestheticism is to do with beauty. Asceticism is to do with self-denial. That is what the video mentioned. David Connell misheard and talked about something else. You are wrong.
i assume you are dislike to combine romans numeral and arabics numeral, or maybe hexadecimals with binary system. yeah, i do too. cus we cant combine 2 type of numerals. the only way is to convert one to another. well, thats my opinion.
@@luthfieyudhairawan3883 Mateus is talking about if you use both of them, it would be hard to tell | (0 in Cistercian) and I (1 in roman numerals) apart.
For ten-thousands and up, just draw a horizontal stem so that the two stems make a cross, and use the ends of that stem for ten-thousands, hundred-thousands, millions, and ten-millions.
I was just thinking of a system where every power of 10 has its own stem, all joined like spokes on a wheel, and the kinks on it determines the digit in that place. (Of course there would have to be a reference stem and direction, but the definition of those is arbitrary)
Would be easier just to have them horizontal and left to right like regular numbers, or add four nibbles together into a larger stem, up to a 16 digit number. It's hard enough to remember which place on the stem is what place, making more stems connected would complicate it needlessly, we already have 4 digit nibbles.
I'm pretty sure that isn'T medieval or pan-European though. Also pronounce E like I is distinctly English, not something that is done anywhere else. E tall E is only Italy to an Englishman.
@@NoriMori1992 but it wasn't until the 19th century when it was widely consumed, well after the medieval era. my guess is that the sign would not have been used then, but started being used more recently after drinking tea became stereotypical. it seems like a pretty flexible system for inventing new words.
What I love about the more modern writing systems is that it seems there is always some more logic behind them, like Korean or now the Cistercian Numerals.
I was watching the old version and it got interrupted at "and they used among themselves a secret-" (1:45). That was HARROWING. It was kind of anticlimatic to find out that it was just a segue back into the video title.
Well, since the Cistercian numbers consist of two rows each with two digits, one could just add more rows to add more digits. The orientation in every row except the last one could be the same.
Somone else commented (Texas Jack I think) how you could just add a horizontal stem on top of the vertical one, to add even larger numbers, if you combine this with what you said, the numbering system could be much more effecient.
I bought this man's Numbrlands and Looking Glass books ten years ago and they inspired me to pursue a degree in mathematics. I dropped out less than a year in since I vastly underrated my dumbness, but the books remain marvellous.
To be specific, this first 1000 year applies to Europe only. Only they were then in the Dark age. Other people like Indians and Arabs were already busy developing the first versions of our current Hindu-Arabic numeral.
As a person with a love for languages, ancient history, code ciphers, religious and societal changes, only high level math (e.g. math/science theories I don't fully understand lol), and puzzles.... I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of this video! I'm definitely buying your language puzzle book!
I somehow like people who have their own language puzzle book standing next to Richard Rhodes' _The Making of the Atomic Bomb_ and a bottle of Jim Daniels.
@@hadz8671 No, it's Maker's Williams. But at this point I've gone to far into the Bourbon/Tennessee distinction for anyone not familiar with US whiskey to understand.
This is quite fun honestly. I was trying to come up with a fictional writing system earlier which was quite simular in some way. You started with on line and depending on the direction is decides if it's a consonant or vowel, then another line for hardness, then a lost of for which sound.
There's a videogame about language deciphering called Chants of Sennaar. SPOILER WARNING... After watching thus video, I can see that one of the languages in the game was clearly inspired by this system. So cool!
For an inital writeup on the "puzzle" presented at 6:30. It seems like all the numbers are 4 digits, which strongly corresponds to the 4 pronged areas of the sticks (aside the fun fact that there are four numbers and 4 symbols to represent them). So looking at commonalities it seems like 1 can be seen as the first and third digit in 1410, as the second digit in 4173 and as the first digit in 1368, with that in mind, looking at the 4 symbols, we can correspond each "offshoot" on the stalk to each digit. The digit 1 here is represented as 90 degree line from the end of the main stalk, from 1410 we can see that the first digit is represented on the lower left position of the stalk, and the third digit is represented top left, and with 4173 we can clearly deduce that the lower right means the second digit and therefore top right must represent the fourth digit by process of elimination. A qurky thing to keep mind of is that the digits are drawn mirrored from one another.
I used to work at medieval fairs some 20 years ago. I wish I had known about that number system then. Also of interest if you are into that stuff: Medieval calculation techniques according to Adam Rise. He published a book on that subject on 1518
This was fun, and just as I was thinking things we'd get a cool animation, like the figures appearing to be stick people, or the 6666 being a race car. Great vid
Fun fact, what we call arabic numerals are actually sanskrit and was learned in India and brought to the Europeans by the arabs but the numbers are not arabic themselves
i just did my part and took this nice principle to the make it a base 12... it's kinda nice but I would need some advices somewhere in the future to adapt this to letter and language
This Hs actually really cool. If this was still widely used, I imagine it could very well have been used in a similar fashion to how a 7 seg display works.
Yeaya!!! A new Numberphile video AND with "Mr.Bellos", one of my absolute favorite ""hosts/presenters"". Thank You (all of You who make this possible) so much for bringing us this continuing stream of great content !! :) Best regards
I suffered from brain damage brought on in an industrial accident in 2013 and I also forgot the Arabic Numeral System. So for me it is two forgotten number systems actually 😔
This is so great! - As a math student I once skimmed through a Book of Mystic Symbols by Agrippina of Nettesheim (as you do) and found this system and exclaimed (not really!) “wow this is cool why don’t we use that!” - Great, that people found that again and share the fascination !
This really makes me appreciate just how perfect a system Arabic numerals are for representing numbers. It's familiar to the point where it's hard to conceive of numbers without it, and so it's easy to take it for granted. But looking at the other solutions humans came up with highlights how completely brilliant and elegant the place system is
This reminds me of the 'dancing men' cypher in a Sherlock Holmes story. . I figured 2020 was one long stem in the middle, with two folded over on one side and one folded over on the other, and another bit stcking out.
It’s actually the same idea as Arabic numbers, a place-value system, but the places are not left to right, but geometric on the page. So when he says at 08:47 that it wouldn’t be much good for maths, that’s not true, up to the limit of 9999 you can add and even multiply easier than with roman numerals.
In the Peculiar Rules video from Monday/Tuesday (depends on the time of day their video was uploaded) it's mentioned that somewhere between 1400 and 1600, there was an attempt to extend the system this way: split the stem in half with a horizontal stem (and most likely put this figure out front of a regular 4-figure number) to create another part that's 10^4 times bigger!
Using those lines added onto the main vertical line, you could have a system to represent any four-digit number in base 32! You've got the horizontal on the end, the horizontal not on the end, the diagonal coming off the end, the diagonal not coming off the end, and the parallel line. That's five bits of information, so you could represent a base-32 digit. Four of them is 20 bits, giving you any number up to over a million.
I actually really like this, is very compact, more than the arabic numerals actually, and you can extend it indefinitely by making the stick longer. Also for north-western left-right writing you can flip it 90º and then you have twice the compactness of arabic per character space, examples: 1 --> ┍ 1111--> H 3311--> ↤ 331133--> ⇹ 331100--> ⇷ 33111133-->⇼ I'm using what unicode lets me, but you know what I meant, super compact.
The problem with extending it indefinitely is that specially if you have a bunch of the 0 in the middle, there would be no way to tell what section you are actually looking at, and also if it need to be fitted to a small space similar to the text around it it would be too small to really extend
@@GummieI actually I was talking to a friend an he pointed the same problem, but you could fix it by just adding a marker for spaces or replacing the 0 symbol (witch is no symbol) with something else.
@@xgozulx While that could fix the issue of 0s in the middle it wont fix the issue of downscaling it, at a normal text size, even adding a single middle section, would make it very hard to make out even for people with perfect eyesight let alone anymore than that for the really big numbers
@@GummieI my idea was not use that small arrow symbols from unicode, but more that each 2 digits would fit in the space of a normal arabic numeral (where 2 digits are the top and bottom part of this notation). Because any two digits in this system have the same amount of strokes as the arabic ones, look at a 3 or a 5, with that many strokes you can write the double amount of digits in this system :D
What I found most interesting when deciphering the system was that there's no difference between up or down within the sign, but toward and away from the middle so it gets flipped for hundreds and thousands. Makes for a nice but very confusing symmetry. Sadly, that also means that you have no way to tell what the original orientation of a given sign was, if it gets turned around you might get a wrong number and wouldn't even notice.
I couldn't decipher the sign language... but I could understand how the number system worked before he gave the explanation, so I'm still proud of myself anyway ! :p
@@511aboy The system is fairly simple to figure out. He gives you more than enough information to figure out the basic premise of the system as well as most of the numbers in that initial graphic of just four number. The 1_1_ and 5_5_ that he uses immediately after he starts actually explaining it is exactly how I figured it out myself before continuing the video. The biggest issue is simply that the ordering of the digits is a bit unintuitive.
@@511aboy Uh. No? I said I figured it out before he explained it? I used the same method he used before he used it because I paused the video and took a few seconds to examine the information he'd provided up to that point and that was the logical method to use. You shouldn't assume nobody else would be able to figure this out just because you were incapable of doing the same.
@@511aboy No, at about 6:10 in when he tells you what number each symbol represents. That's more than enough information to figure out position as well as the numbers 0, 1, and 3-8. This is just before the narrator himself says (around 6:22) you might want to pause and try to figure things out. At this point he hasn't actually explained the system. He's only gone over some of its history and given you enough clues to figure it out on your own.
You can add stems together from the center of another stem orthogonal to get two more digit places. And two more. And two more. And you can express any number with that kind of tree ;) Rule can be for example to add (and read) stems right and up always.
If "shame house" is used for toilet, what is the mime for brothel? :D Edit: Hm, in German brothel is also called Freudenhaus (joy house), so what's the mime for joy? :D
6:31 i got it the first two no. Are below stick and another two is head stick. In the first stick head left side 1 and 0 on right side because there is no line connection to the middle stick
Last week I had the thought that the Greek alphabet was perfect, in the sense of having 24 letters which could have doubled as a base 24 number system.
What about extending that system putting even powers of ten to the right and odd powers to the left? And maybe wrapping very long numbers in a spiral way?
I note that some of the digits are made by combining 4 or 6 with a smaller one. Extend that -- use existing symbols for 1, 2 and 4, and use the 6 stroke for 8, and you can do hex. Using both sides of both ends of the stem you can count up to 2^{16} - 1.
after seeing that number system I was like WHAT LOW STANDARD NUMBER SYSTEM WAS I USING TILL DATE FOR DAILY LIFE !!! AMAZZZINNNG NOTATION!! BEST VIDEO! AMAZINGLY CREATIVE SYSTEM!!! love u r channel!!!!
@@112048112048 I was gonna comment that the picture was wrong, while watching the video, but the comments wouldn't load. So I refreshed the whole video, and it was gone!
@@SomeGuy1117 "Zero" was added by Aryabhatta, an Indian mathematician. Almost all of the things that are popular as Arabic in Europe came originally from India, it's just that they got there through the Arab world.
Not entirely true. While the basics of the system originated in India further additions, enhancements and improvements were made by the Arabs hence why it is known as Indo-Arab, although more commonly as the Arabic number system.
if you put a horizontal stroke in the middle, you could then notify 10,000, which would then make all subsequent numbers 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000 and 10,000,000. Then if you need more you can make a new symbol to replace that horizontal stroke (like an 'x' for 100,000,000, 1,000,000,000 etc.)
I. I am a die hard Catholic, and I love St. Bernard and the Cistercian order. (And the broader Benedictine family) II. I love alternative number systems and have invented my own for fun. III. This is right up my alley, and I'm already using it for base 10,000 (and base 5040 and base 9240. Really, anything in the rough 10^3*1.00 - 10.00 range. ) IV. This reminds me of Achaemenid numerals which similarly used symbols from 1-4 and then built 5-9 from them. (And introduced new sets for 10, 20, 30, 40 and 100, 200, 300, 400, etc.) V. The middle ages also had a sign language of numbers used for calling prices for livestock at market for example, and you may want to do a video about that too.
Sorry for the re-upload - was fixing a mistake... Alex's books can be found at: amzn.to/3oU0wjT
watching this a second time 😎
Numberphile videos are always great 😍😍😍😍😍... Going from simple axioms to huge mathematics proofs👍👍👍
so what about number system used in Sumeria and Babylon? i ve heard its based on 12 digits, same number as number of phalanxes on human fingers.
@@srivatsav9817 you don't need to spam. Also it's quite known fact
@@srivatsav9817 Alright, mate... that's plenty.
"I called up the monks and asked if they still practiced their vow of silence and they said..."
*Long Pause*
"No"
Legitimately got a laugh out of me.
The only alternative I can think of to that joke would be a long pause followed by at least 5 minutes of nonstop fast verbal discourse about the entire history of the number system up to the current day. That would have been amusing too.
But yeah; I did chuckle at their version too.
Not really much of a surprise since it's a given that anyone answering a telephone call isn't taking a vow of silence. Or else why would you bother.
@@zym6687 Could be part of the joke, you can't tell until the punchline is given
I lol'ed so hard i chuckled.
@@Jefbracke That doesn't even make any sense. Even if it meant as a joke. Unless it was a slightly surreal or strange one.
So let me ask; does your giraffe wear a top hat while eating hypothetical penguin's boots?
One big advantage that number system has: all numbers take up the same amount of space, no matter how big or small. Which is really neat, especially for stuff like page numbers.
I wonder if it would be possible to invent a number system like this that is also easy to use for calculations
@@DvDick I strongly suspect it could be. In fact, with the right rules and learning, even this system should be. After all, it's just a positional number system represented differently.
There is little 'logic' in the fact that the symbols '11+37' become '48' or that '5×7' becomes '35'; it's only that we understand the symbols well enough and how to manipulate them.
I'm sure there are plenty of computer geeks who can manipulate binary or hex without 'translating them back' into decimal to do the calculations. Certainly computers themselves do; they _have_ to.
Maybe some things (anything to do with decimals, or powers etc.) could become hard. But I don't think it would be impossible to tweak the system so it was possible.
But I may be completely wrong. I have a maths degree; so I've not used 'numbers' for decades. (Apart from Sudoku, where they are totally irrelevant.) 😉
@@Varksterable Basic binary calculations are pretty easy. In fact, most addition/substractions doesn't even need to be "calculated", just pay attention to what digits to "flip" and there you are, without even knowing what the actual answer is 😅
@@Zeru64_ Exactly. As it is with this system. As it is with decimal. Just move the digits along as you add up pairs and carry anything left over into the next column.
But what about other calculations? Calculate (4.67^5.2)/(ln(49)×67) but all in binary. Not quite so easy, is it?
I'm sure I couldn't to that precisely in decimal either. But I could at least have a try at approximating it. In binary? No chance.
And you say you wouldn't even know what the answer was? Then is that really 'solving' the calculation? To end up with a meaningless answer isn't really much use. It's like saying what is 38*41+76? Answer: "some number."
But my point is that this isn't a flaw in the symbolic representation. It's just that I've spent 40+ years using decimals and understanding how to manipulate them.
regular numbers left-padded with 0s to 4 digits would all take the same amount of space as each other also.
*furiously taking notes for a D&D campaign*
Same! Definitely incorporating this into some kind of Thieve’s Cant
SAME
i thought the exactly same thing, but I created my own probably easier system, 1,2,3 and 4 are the same, but 5 gets 6's symbol. from there you just add. 6=5+1, 7=5+2 and so on. i showed the monks system and then my new system, to some people who didn't know about this, and they preferred my system more. i first tried making 3= 1+2. but it got weird and difficult to draw with the higher numbers.
Ahahahahah me too! I'm planning a puzzle based campaign and this falls perfectly!
That was one of my first thoughts, and I'm surprised (and delighted) how many other people share this intent.
2020 looking like flipped table is pretty symbolic
Seems appropriate.
Matthew 21:12 rofl
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
@@chasemolenaar2161 YES!
You also want to be careful writing out 1887.
Since I was 12, I have often tried to create a number system like this one, where larger numbers just added something to the simpler numbers representing a higher value. I wanted a lot of numbers to be represented by just one character. This video showed me that I wasn't just crazy. Not only have people had the same idea, they also implemented it
grahams number be lookin like a fractal
"It was a secret number system, and it didn't really catch on..." I think maybe "catching on" would have defeated the whole purpose behind its "secrecy" :)
All writing started as secret systems. There were only a few writers of Minoan Linear B alive at any given time, for instance, determined from subtle variations in writing style.
@@Egilhelmson
Not really. Some writing started simply as a way to keep track of supplies.
My secret is that I'm a biped, it's stunning how few people notice.
??..
Why? If it catches on then more people can have secrets. That wouldbe great for privacy.
It's actually quite simple to do math with cistercian numerals, if you write them in sequence, add up corresponding corners, and occasionally take care of the carry.
They're basically base-10,000 numerals in a positional system.
ye this is no harder to do math with than arabic, they're really similar
Finally, a base 10,000 numerical system for those of us with 10,000 tentacles
Not only is it base 10000, it is also actually usable because you dont need to remember every digit
It's not base 10000 the stem is just part of the writing. The video actually states it is a decimal system. IE base 10.
@@headhunter1945 It has 10,000 unique symbols no?
When he started doing the digits from 0 to 9 I was expecting to see a cross, but I was mistaken.
5 is 4 + 1, makes perfect sense
6 is "yeah I'll just put this floating dash here"
then it makes sense again, being
7 is 6 + 1
8 is 6 + 2
9 is 6 + 1 + 2
Well it's semi obtuse, but that was probably on purpose. Individual numbers having unique symbols, and a way to write 4 digit numbers, technically you could adapt this to modern numbers just by making a way to add 4 digit chunks together, essentially making decimal nibbles.
Sort of like the French naming system.
Makes you wonder why 3 isn't F (1 + 2)
We should remake this number notation using prime numbers.
for fun i created my own probably easier system, 1,2,3 and 4 are the same, but 5 gets the "floating dash" instead of 6. from there you just add. 6=5+1, 7=5+2 and so on. i showed the monks system and then my new system, to some people who didn't know about this, and they preferred my system more. i first tried making 3= 1+2. but it got weird and difficult to draw with the higher numbers.
Every grade schooler who played "smell my finger" knows why that's "brown".
I thought it might be related to brown nosing. Where ever that phrase comes from.
@@ehzmia And here I figured it was because of brown mustaches...
@@IceMetalPunk no, it is brown bc of dirty sanchez.
Dirty Sanchez
How does that "game" go?
"Do you still use the vow of silence sign language"
Super long pause
Hahaha
"How do you represent zero in your number system?"
Silence
"Thanks"
@@chrisg3030 Actually: |
Maybe they never really kept a vow of silence, just made very long pauses, and people didn't wait for them to finish and assumed they were under a vow.
@tolcso Cistercian monks: ”What vow of silence?”
??.
I can't believe that "about 20 years ago" is about 2000.
My mind went to mid 1980s
@@inigo8740 same.
The way 2020 has been, "about 20 years ago" is April.
@@SteveHodge April?
I havent heard that name in years...
Same and I was born in 2002. I guess 2000 simply doesn’t sound like a long time ago even though it was before I was born lol
One interesting quirk that this number system has is that you can see which digits in a number are odd by seeing if they form a vertex at the end of the stem. I wonder if that's due to the way the system was originally constructed.
Interestingly, note that 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 each have their own unique single line representation, while the others are compounds of them (added together).
And 5 could be 3 and 3 or 4 and 1
@@TheDeadheadable Do you mean a 2 and 3? That would result in an upside down 5.
Only a 4 combined with 1 gives you a 5.
The Cistercians heavily influenced aesthetics. Anyone who has visited a Cistercian Abbey such as the marvelous one at Sénanque has to have experienced awe at how a heavily built structure with small windows can yet admit so much light and feel airy. Loved learning this today! Thanks for every Numberphile video.
Ascetic, not aesthetic
@@edga69 it is aesthetic, not “ascetic” so you’re wrong
@@dirtmanmapping Aestheticism is to do with beauty. Asceticism is to do with self-denial. That is what the video mentioned. David Connell misheard and talked about something else. You are wrong.
@@edga69 he was talking about the beauty of their structures, not asceticism
@@TechnoHackerVid You're right of course. Nevertheless maybe that aesthetic was ascetic.
It looks particularly useful for writing times. A single character can potentially suffice for 15:36.
This would be so confusing to use along with roman numerals, because, in this system, I is zero
i assume you are dislike to combine romans numeral and arabics numeral, or maybe hexadecimals with binary system. yeah, i do too. cus we cant combine 2 type of numerals. the only way is to convert one to another.
well, thats my opinion.
that's not how it works though
so it's the 0-Ring, nice
@@luthfieyudhairawan3883 Mateus is talking about if you use both of them, it would be hard to tell | (0 in Cistercian) and I (1 in roman numerals) apart.
@@pozxyyy rush light is talking about how that would never happen in practical usage so it doesn't matter
I know how I'l be solving my math tests in the future
Noice
Plot twist: your teacher also know this number system
@@warren5037
Hopefully, or else they’ll fail abysmally.
Probably not what the teacher meant when they said to show your work.
??..
0:15 should be the slogan of this channel. Numberphile "you know em', 1,2,3,4,5 etc..."
For ten-thousands and up, just draw a horizontal stem so that the two stems make a cross, and use the ends of that stem for ten-thousands, hundred-thousands, millions, and ten-millions.
I just wanted to say the same thing :)
how would you write it as a complex number? 😁 🤗👻
I was just thinking of a system where every power of 10 has its own stem, all joined like spokes on a wheel, and the kinks on it determines the digit in that place. (Of course there would have to be a reference stem and direction, but the definition of those is arbitrary)
Would be easier just to have them horizontal and left to right like regular numbers, or add four nibbles together into a larger stem, up to a 16 digit number.
It's hard enough to remember which place on the stem is what place, making more stems connected would complicate it needlessly, we already have 4 digit nibbles.
Or just write multiple 4 digit numbers next to each other
Can we just talk about how perfect that telephone sign language joke was? (3:55) I laughed so hard. These videos are such treats
Fine, let us talk about it. What do you like most about it?
Drink tea land... England!
I'm surprised they got that so quick
I'm pretty sure that isn'T medieval or pan-European though. Also pronounce E like I is distinctly English, not something that is done anywhere else. E tall E is only Italy to an Englishman.
as someone from mainland europe, when i hear tea i think of england instantly.... tea is almost a synonym for england to me haha
@@raafmaat I thought China because that's where tea originated.
Why is that surprising? English people loving tea is a really well-known stereotype.
@@NoriMori1992 but it wasn't until the 19th century when it was widely consumed, well after the medieval era. my guess is that the sign would not have been used then, but started being used more recently after drinking tea became stereotypical. it seems like a pretty flexible system for inventing new words.
I am laughing so hard at the vow of silence on the phone gag aha
What I love about the more modern writing systems is that it seems there is always some more logic behind them, like Korean or now the Cistercian Numerals.
I was watching the old version and it got interrupted at "and they used among themselves a secret-" (1:45). That was HARROWING. It was kind of anticlimatic to find out that it was just a segue back into the video title.
what did you mean?
(p.s. high hoof!)
I don't get it 🤔
Huh
false..
Well, since the Cistercian numbers consist of two rows each with two digits, one could just add more rows to add more digits.
The orientation in every row except the last one could be the same.
Somone else commented (Texas Jack I think) how you could just add a horizontal stem on top of the vertical one, to add even larger numbers, if you combine this with what you said, the numbering system could be much more effecient.
@@whimbur
You mean six digits per double row?
That doesn't sound too shabby.
I bought this man's Numbrlands and Looking Glass books ten years ago and they inspired me to pursue a degree in mathematics. I dropped out less than a year in since I vastly underrated my dumbness, but the books remain marvellous.
"For the first 1,000 years of the first millenium..."? I'm no mathemetician, but, uh...
I think that's the joke
Exaggerated way of saying a long time, and when. I.e. all of the first millennium CE.
To be specific, this first 1000 year applies to Europe only. Only they were then in the Dark age. Other people like Indians and Arabs were already busy developing the first versions of our current Hindu-Arabic numeral.
"millenium"? I'm no Roman, but, uh ... millenium, with a single n, refers to thousand arseholes, not thousand years.
??.
The way that signs are put together in order to express complex ideas reminds me a bit of the toki pona constructed language.
It's also useful to privately write down IBAN codes, being a sequence of four 4-digits numbers.
As a person with a love for languages, ancient history, code ciphers, religious and societal changes, only high level math (e.g. math/science theories I don't fully understand lol), and puzzles.... I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of this video!
I'm definitely buying your language puzzle book!
9:36 Don’t forget Music Theory! Roman numerals are all over the place there
I somehow like people who have their own language puzzle book standing next to Richard Rhodes' _The Making of the Atomic Bomb_ and a bottle of Jim Daniels.
Actually, I think it is Jack Beam.
@@hadz8671 Touché! Kudos from a teetotaling milksop!
@@hadz8671 No, it's Maker's Williams. But at this point I've gone to far into the Bourbon/Tennessee distinction for anyone not familiar with US whiskey to understand.
"Customers who bought this item also bought:"
Priorities are everything!
7:40 I really like how it all comes together and that 9 is 6 + 1 + 2 as well as 7 + 2 and even 8 + 1!
it's not 6+3 or 5+4 though. They're so close to having a binary system, if so all the addition would work out perfectly.
Everyone: _Watches carefully_
Me: _Looks at whats on Alex's shelf_
All about that classic gameboy
@@annihilatorg lol and the rubix cube
@@yingo4098 And the Jack Daniels
@@mwgondim ya
And a menorah, ay gevalt!
This is quite fun honestly. I was trying to come up with a fictional writing system earlier which was quite simular in some way. You started with on line and depending on the direction is decides if it's a consonant or vowel, then another line for hardness, then a lost of for which sound.
It's crazy this channel still proposes so interesting content after so many years !
There's a videogame about language deciphering called Chants of Sennaar.
SPOILER WARNING...
After watching thus video, I can see that one of the languages in the game was clearly inspired by this system. So cool!
Stylistically reminiscent of some obscure types of tally marks.
The simulated monastic silence at 4:15 was hilarious.
Well now I wanna see what was wrong with the first upload
let me know im curious
The 5750 they animated was incorrect. It actually was 5710. I pointed it out in the comments and they deleted the video.
One of the mystery numbers was written incorrectly in the graphic... We had spotted and fixed it... Then I uploaded the old wrong version!!!!
@@numberphile Ok, you uploaded the Parker version.
one monk wanted something else than chocolate milk
For an inital writeup on the "puzzle" presented at 6:30. It seems like all the numbers are 4 digits, which strongly corresponds to the 4 pronged areas of the sticks (aside the fun fact that there are four numbers and 4 symbols to represent them). So looking at commonalities it seems like 1 can be seen as the first and third digit in 1410, as the second digit in 4173 and as the first digit in 1368, with that in mind, looking at the 4 symbols, we can correspond each "offshoot" on the stalk to each digit. The digit 1 here is represented as 90 degree line from the end of the main stalk, from 1410 we can see that the first digit is represented on the lower left position of the stalk, and the third digit is represented top left, and with 4173 we can clearly deduce that the lower right means the second digit and therefore top right must represent the fourth digit by process of elimination. A qurky thing to keep mind of is that the digits are drawn mirrored from one another.
Imagine how much harder maths would be using Roman numerals
I used to work at medieval fairs some 20 years ago. I wish I had known about that number system then. Also of interest if you are into that stuff: Medieval calculation techniques according to Adam Rise. He published a book on that subject on 1518
This was fun, and just as I was thinking things we'd get a cool animation, like the figures appearing to be stick people, or the 6666 being a race car. Great vid
And this is what inspired Chants of Sennaar.
yep, immediately thought of this video when I saw the symbols in the game
dem warrior glyhpsa saff
Fun fact, what we call arabic numerals are actually sanskrit and was learned in India and brought to the Europeans by the arabs but the numbers are not arabic themselves
i just did my part and took this nice principle to the make it a base 12... it's kinda nice but I would need some advices somewhere in the future to adapt this to letter and language
This Hs actually really cool. If this was still widely used, I imagine it could very well have been used in a similar fashion to how a 7 seg display works.
Yeaya!!! A new Numberphile video AND with "Mr.Bellos", one of my absolute favorite ""hosts/presenters"".
Thank You (all of You who make this possible) so much for bringing us this continuing stream of great content !! :)
Best regards
I suffered from brain damage brought on in an industrial accident in 2013 and I also forgot the Arabic Numeral System. So for me it is two forgotten number systems actually 😔
This is so great! - As a math student I once skimmed through a Book of Mystic Symbols by Agrippina of Nettesheim (as you do) and found this system and exclaimed (not really!) “wow this is cool why don’t we use that!” - Great, that people found that again and share the fascination !
Pretty nice system I would say. Way more compact than Roman numerals.
Brady, you're one of the most delightful people whose channel I have the joy of watching
Last time I was this early, numbers weren't invented yet.
This really makes me appreciate just how perfect a system Arabic numerals are for representing numbers. It's familiar to the point where it's hard to conceive of numbers without it, and so it's easy to take it for granted. But looking at the other solutions humans came up with highlights how completely brilliant and elegant the place system is
It wasn't even invented by Arabs though
@@xerxesbreak5226it was invented in India i believe but the Arabs were the first who adopted it.
This reminds me of the 'dancing men' cypher in a Sherlock Holmes story.
.
I figured 2020 was one long stem in the middle, with two folded over on one side and one folded over on the other, and another bit stcking out.
Yes. I thought ‘dancing men’ from Sherlock too.
It’s actually the same idea as Arabic numbers, a place-value system, but the places are not left to right, but geometric on the page. So when he says at 08:47 that it wouldn’t be much good for maths, that’s not true, up to the limit of 9999 you can add and even multiply easier than with roman numerals.
Math lessons on April fools day are going to be fun.
In the Peculiar Rules video from Monday/Tuesday (depends on the time of day their video was uploaded) it's mentioned that somewhere between 1400 and 1600, there was an attempt to extend the system this way: split the stem in half with a horizontal stem (and most likely put this figure out front of a regular 4-figure number) to create another part that's 10^4 times bigger!
Using those lines added onto the main vertical line, you could have a system to represent any four-digit number in base 32! You've got the horizontal on the end, the horizontal not on the end, the diagonal coming off the end, the diagonal not coming off the end, and the parallel line. That's five bits of information, so you could represent a base-32 digit. Four of them is 20 bits, giving you any number up to over a million.
I actually really like this, is very compact, more than the arabic numerals actually, and you can extend it indefinitely by making the stick longer. Also for north-western left-right writing you can flip it 90º and then you have twice the compactness of arabic per character space, examples:
1 --> ┍
1111--> H
3311--> ↤
331133--> ⇹
331100--> ⇷
33111133-->⇼
I'm using what unicode lets me, but you know what I meant, super compact.
The problem with extending it indefinitely is that specially if you have a bunch of the 0 in the middle, there would be no way to tell what section you are actually looking at, and also if it need to be fitted to a small space similar to the text around it it would be too small to really extend
@@GummieI actually I was talking to a friend an he pointed the same problem, but you could fix it by just adding a marker for spaces or replacing the 0 symbol (witch is no symbol) with something else.
@@xgozulx While that could fix the issue of 0s in the middle it wont fix the issue of downscaling it, at a normal text size, even adding a single middle section, would make it very hard to make out even for people with perfect eyesight let alone anymore than that for the really big numbers
@@GummieI my idea was not use that small arrow symbols from unicode, but more that each 2 digits would fit in the space of a normal arabic numeral (where 2 digits are the top and bottom part of this notation). Because any two digits in this system have the same amount of strokes as the arabic ones, look at a 3 or a 5, with that many strokes you can write the double amount of digits in this system :D
In before the comments get flooded saying they have seen this video before
ha-
*oh wait that's him*
In before the replies get flooded saying they've seen you in comments before
ok Justin.
In before I get this joke
In before the 1000 likes and "I see you in every video"
What I found most interesting when deciphering the system was that there's no difference between up or down within the sign, but toward and away from the middle so it gets flipped for hundreds and thousands. Makes for a nice but very confusing symmetry.
Sadly, that also means that you have no way to tell what the original orientation of a given sign was, if it gets turned around you might get a wrong number and wouldn't even notice.
I couldn't decipher the sign language... but I could understand how the number system worked before he gave the explanation, so I'm still proud of myself anyway ! :p
@@511aboy The system is fairly simple to figure out. He gives you more than enough information to figure out the basic premise of the system as well as most of the numbers in that initial graphic of just four number. The 1_1_ and 5_5_ that he uses immediately after he starts actually explaining it is exactly how I figured it out myself before continuing the video. The biggest issue is simply that the ordering of the digits is a bit unintuitive.
@@511aboy Uh. No? I said I figured it out before he explained it? I used the same method he used before he used it because I paused the video and took a few seconds to examine the information he'd provided up to that point and that was the logical method to use. You shouldn't assume nobody else would be able to figure this out just because you were incapable of doing the same.
@@511aboy No, at about 6:10 in when he tells you what number each symbol represents. That's more than enough information to figure out position as well as the numbers 0, 1, and 3-8. This is just before the narrator himself says (around 6:22) you might want to pause and try to figure things out. At this point he hasn't actually explained the system. He's only gone over some of its history and given you enough clues to figure it out on your own.
This guy is pretty nice to listen to. He seems very kind
That pause on the phone had me rolling
You can add stems together from the center of another stem orthogonal to get two more digit places. And two more. And two more. And you can express any number with that kind of tree ;) Rule can be for example to add (and read) stems right and up always.
This is how I’m going to file my taxes next year
I actually came across this number system nearly a year ago and took notes on it. Pleasant surprise to see a video about it.
That is a cool system and I love the look of it.
This is one of the coolest things I've seen in some time. Well done Brady Sir!
Cistercian numerals are my new favorite thing.
I added 2 extra axiis to it and wrote my phone number as a single number. Pretty fun.
Lol, I thought the silence on the phone call was because he was responding in sign language.
If "shame house" is used for toilet, what is the mime for brothel? :D
Edit: Hm, in German brothel is also called Freudenhaus (joy house), so what's the mime for joy? :D
Somehow I don't think a hermetic order of monks would have a word for it 😁
Why natural body functions are shameful is still beyond me. Shameful behavior exists but that is not it.
*thumbs up
*house
@@ostimeg That almost makes it seem like the Heaven-House which... yeah fair enough, actually.
Milk house
6:31 i got it
the first two no. Are below stick and another two is head stick.
In the first stick head left side 1 and 0 on right side because there is no line connection to the middle stick
"The numbering of numbers is numbered."
---Albert Einstein
Last week I had the thought that the Greek alphabet was perfect, in the sense of having 24 letters which could have doubled as a base 24 number system.
"A barn is 'Cow House'"
_Happy Jesse Pinkman Noises_
How did they sign for "brothel"? "Cat house"?
What about extending that system putting even powers of ten to the right and odd powers to the left? And maybe wrapping very long numbers in a spiral way?
4:03 I guess this is a comedy channel now? 🧐🤓
I note that some of the digits are made by combining 4 or 6 with a smaller one. Extend that -- use existing symbols for 1, 2 and 4, and use the 6 stroke for 8, and you can do hex. Using both sides of both ends of the stem you can count up to 2^{16} - 1.
3:57 I laughed way too hard at that
This is one of my favourite Numberphile videos ever haha. Love it
Watching this video on my phone from the shame house.
I love his energy and how excited he is about the system
"Ararbic" numerals were actually invented in India. They were only known as Arabic numerals because they were introduced in Europe by the Arabs.
after seeing that number system I was like WHAT LOW STANDARD NUMBER SYSTEM WAS I USING TILL DATE FOR DAILY LIFE !!! AMAZZZINNNG NOTATION!!
BEST VIDEO!
AMAZINGLY CREATIVE SYSTEM!!!
love u r channel!!!!
Is this a reupload? I swear I saw it like an hour ago
They messed up the top left flag on the third number, which has been edited in this version.
yes. the animation for 5750 was wrong.
@@112048112048 I was gonna comment that the picture was wrong, while watching the video, but the comments wouldn't load. So I refreshed the whole video, and it was gone!
@@mickeyrube6623 That's the exact same thing that happened to me.
These are so cool! But what happens when you go beyond that?
4:56
Okay, Professor Layton.
Wait, I've just thought of a puzzle! ...
There are no hint coins in the background
i haven’t watched this channel in like 2 years the youtube algorithm failed me again
The "Arabic" mumeral system is actually Indian numeral system.
I thought the Indian system was everything beside zero, then zero was added by the Arabs, could be wrong though.
@@SomeGuy1117 "Zero" was added by Aryabhatta, an Indian mathematician.
Almost all of the things that are popular as Arabic in Europe came originally from India, it's just that they got there through the Arab world.
@@shaktiman528 Those kind of naming happens often. Coffee was considered to be Turkish, even though it most likely origins from Ethiopia.
@@SomeGuy1117 The zero also came from India. You can still see the oldest one in Gwalior. The Arabs didn't do anything but pass it on to Europe.
Not entirely true. While the basics of the system originated in India further additions, enhancements and improvements were made by the Arabs hence why it is known as Indo-Arab, although more commonly as the Arabic number system.
I got it right when you showed what the numbers are. Very easy and simple numerical system, and looks majestic.
Deja-vu
I have watched this video before...
same
It was taken down, now up again.
It was ban for sexual content.
Higher on the street
if you put a horizontal stroke in the middle, you could then notify 10,000, which would then make all subsequent numbers 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000 and 10,000,000. Then if you need more you can make a new symbol to replace that horizontal stroke (like an 'x' for 100,000,000, 1,000,000,000 etc.)
6666 and 2020... haha, so I guess we're just doing cursed numbers then?
2:04 The music reminds me of "The Academy Of Honor" from Heroes IV.
Hey, it's like that Sherlock Holmes story!
The Adventure of the Dancing Monks?
I. I am a die hard Catholic, and I love St. Bernard and the Cistercian order. (And the broader Benedictine family)
II. I love alternative number systems and have invented my own for fun.
III. This is right up my alley, and I'm already using it for base 10,000 (and base 5040 and base 9240. Really, anything in the rough 10^3*1.00 - 10.00 range. )
IV. This reminds me of Achaemenid numerals which similarly used symbols from 1-4 and then built 5-9 from them. (And introduced new sets for 10, 20, 30, 40 and 100, 200, 300, 400, etc.)
V. The middle ages also had a sign language of numbers used for calling prices for livestock at market for example, and you may want to do a video about that too.