I started as a weak chess player, I practise shogi a lot and a little bit of xiangqi. I much prefer shogi and I think I am a better chess player (except for pawn finales) now that I have practised shogi.
They both are equally different enough from Chess. Some of the pieces move the same, but other pieces move differently and there are different rules about stalemate, etc. (usually in Shogi and Xianqi, stalemate is a win, not a draw).
@@DieFlabbergastit could exist. Opponent may not have any pieces to drop or move other than the king, while you may have left him no square to move his king to without getting into check.
@@DieFlabbergastTechnically, it is possible as @arpan points out. Unsure what the exact rule is, probably "Impasse" which is a draw. Practically, this will never happen in a real game, though, as the stronger player will checkmate long before stalemate.
Its true that both Shogi and Xiangqi are different, but by any reasonable metric the differences between Chess and Shogi are much greater. In particular, the drop rule fundamentally changes the nature of the game.
@@arpanagarwal2524 In theory yes, but basically has never happened unless it was done on purpose. Also when it is your move in shogi, it is YOUR responsibility to not move your king into check. If you make an illegal move, the game is automatically a loss once it is pointed out. In each move you have three choices: move a piece, drop a piece, or resign. So if it was the case that your king has nowhere to go and you have no pieces, your last choice is to bow and just say "makemashita" (resign).
One thing that I found quite interesting about your interpretation of the games is that you said that Shogi is more tactical than Chess and Xiangqi is more strategic than Chess. Most people would argue the exact opposite for the two games. Shogi has much slower-moving pieces, and at higher-level play, the game becomes extremely positional. Xiangqi on the other hand has no real concept of pawn structures, and every piece is poised to attack from the very beginning, so it ends up being much more aggressive and tactical. People say that Xiangqi starts right in the midgame.
I don't remember what I said exactly :D But I would say the following: Shogi is a game really far in my opinion from chess because of the dropping pieces. The game is like there is a moment you can go for a tactical checkmate sacrificing everything and dropping everything on the King to checkmate. In this sense it's tactical, but on the other hand I agree that a Shogi game can be... really long and has some positional aspects. Xiangqi is a game on my point of view that is pretty "close" to chess, but I don't really think it's more strategic than chess, it's something different and yes you have some nice tactics with canons especially that are surprising for a chess player.
@@bbzabstractgameswhats the difference between of tactical amd strategic for you? I think thats the key. Also Go game could be even more strategic in my opinion
@@TheFriskyBoy In Board games, Strategy is when you are trying to achieve something globally, for instance in chess it would be the openings, the fact of controlling dark squares or having a pair of bishopts, etc... Tactic is local, it would be a combination, a very nice move or sequence of moves that gain some material or a checkmate. You have some games that are more strategic and some games that are more tactical. You even have some games almost without any strategic aspect. If you know the game "Carcassonne" which is not an abstract would be one of them. You don't know what gonna be your next tile to place, the game is just draw a tile and try to make as much possible points placing it. Counting the tiles, remembering wich tiles will come is a big aspect of Carcassonne, which is not tactic and not strategic, memory is another part. You still can have strategy like "I will play my meeples in cities more than on roads" but it's not really deep. The game is a Tactic Memory one.
Great video, merci Florian! Couple of comments: 1) If you want to take up Shogi or Xiangqi regularly, even just casually, do NOT learn the pieces with Western symbols like in this video! The problem is that all tournaments, published materials and many websites will not support these symbols. Take 20-60 minutes (that is all it takes) to learn the Chinese/Japanese symbols. You will be rewarded by being able to access the bulk of published materials out there and live tournaments. The rest of the comments apply to Xiangqi 2) The central 9-square zone in which the king (or "General") is trapped is called "Castle" rather than "Palace". I've also seen this translated as "Fortress", but "Castle" is the most common. 3) The two pieces in the castle with the king are called "Advisors" (not "Dwarves"). In notation (including this video) when this piece moves, it is given the letter "A" for Advisor". Some translations call this piece "Mandarin", but prefer "Advisor". "Mandarin" is old English for "Advisor" or "Councillor". 4) The elephant can be blocked if a piece is in the path of the 2-step diagonal move. Any piece which blocks the elephant's move is said (in Chinese) to be "in the eye of the elephant" (a beautiful phrase) 5) The king's don't "act like rooks to the other king", which is slightly ambiguous. The rule is usually stated as "the kings cannot face each other on an open file", which is simpler. Florian makes a nice summary of the Xiangqi rules, but misses two vital rules: 6) 3-fold repetition does not lead to an automatic draw (like in Western Chess). It is sometimes illegal! When a stronger piece attacks a weaker piece, this is called "chasing" in Chinese. And "perpetual chasing" is NOT allowed. The most common scenario where this applies is when a piece like the rook attacks (or "checks") the king. In Western chess, perpetual check is a draw, but in Xiangqi the 3rd check is disallowed. In serious tournaments, you may actually lose the game immediately if you check for a 3rd time in-a-row. In tournaments with non-Chinese players, you will usually be given a warning by the arbiter (like making an illegal move), and allowed to redo the move. But "perpetual chasing" also applies if a rook attacks a weaker piece like a cannon or promoted pawn, or even if two rooks attack a piece. This is by far the most complicated Xiangqi rule. It is simplest to start by just thinking "perpetual check is not allowed" and forget about rarer perpetual chase scenarios for now. 7) Florian misses a really vital rule in Xiangqi - there is no stalemate! If the opponent cannot move, the player who cannot move loses. This is a common way to end a a game of Xiangqi. Nice video, Florian. I agree with your comment that Xiangqi is more similar to Western chess than Shogi. I highly recommend this wonderful game. This comment is from Alain Dekker who is a Pentamind World Champion (2004) and has played as a non-Chinese/non-Vietnamese in two Xiangqi World Championships (I was crushed by the strong Chinese GMs, of course!)
As someone with a lot of experience in this area, I disagree on point #1. Many people struggle to learn Chinese characters. It's okay to learn it however you want, but the most important part of is learning AND enjoying the game. Once you are familiar with the pieces, you can learn whatever symbols it takes, as this is necessary for interacting with learning material. But in the very early learning stages of the game, the actual rules and movements can be too much for some people.
@@CouchTomato87 You need to learn the symbols to progress beyond the "Yeah, I kinda know the rules" stage, though. Unless you're just looking to dabble, learn the symbols as early as possible as the reward/effort ratio is very high.
@@bigalain1261 that’s not quite true. I know two very strong players who learned using that internationalized set. As long as you can play it, it’s viable. The game itself is not changed
Strongly disagree on point #1. This alone has limited the growth of Xiangqi in Western countries. Xiangqi would grow outside China very quickly if it had symbols on pieces, and certainly I would like to see 3D pieces as chess has. Tradition is nice, but thinking outside box has its place.
I started with chess and then many years later took up shogi and xiangqi. I know a lot of people like to have 'favorites' but for me choosing between shogi and xiangi is like choosing between pizza and cake, or Beethoven and Mozart. I might also add a third game to consider- *Janggi* or Korean chess. It is derived from Xiangqi but has enough differences to make it a distinctly different game. It is much easier to defend in Janggi and games tend to be considerably longer than Xiangqi. As a western chess player I felt more at home in Janggi than the others. I have also tried Burmese chess and Thai chess but I don't think think they are quite as good. But I don't mean that in a condescending way, I mean that only in comparison to shogi , xiangqi and janggi they are not as good. But if chess had never been invented and one day somebody came up with the idea for Burmese or Thai chess they would likely be a big global sensation.
You can actually do that. There is a program called Zillions of Games that has a lot of classic games, and people can make their own games. I have seen someone come up with a chess pieces vs shogi pieces variant.
not possible because shogi is played on an 9X9 grid and chess on a 8x8. And this xiangqi is also played on a a totaly different board. So how are you going to balance this?
For me, between Xiangqi and Shogi, it is undeniable that both board games are addictive and fun to play, just like Western chess. I have a fondness for chess because it was the first board game I learned to play. Shogi I find very fun to learn and also very addictive. Xiangqi I believe is equally complex as Shogi and much more addictive (in my opinion).
I found shogi much more complex than xiangqi. Xiangqi is like chess but fast paced, but shogi is haywire. It's more addicting I'd say but the matches are longer so I don't for which I don't have time
@ yes, but also there's barely any drawing chances so if you play the game there will be an outcome unlike chess. Also anyone who says xiangqi is more complex has either never played shogi or is biased due to their chinese heritage or something
Very interesting video, and interesting considerations on these two games from a chessplayer.
I started as a weak chess player, I practise shogi a lot and a little bit of xiangqi. I much prefer shogi and I think I am a better chess player (except for pawn finales) now that I have practised shogi.
They both are equally different enough from Chess. Some of the pieces move the same, but other pieces move differently and there are different rules about stalemate, etc. (usually in Shogi and Xianqi, stalemate is a win, not a draw).
Stalemate does not exist in shogi. By the very nature of the game, it could not exist.
@@DieFlabbergastit could exist. Opponent may not have any pieces to drop or move other than the king, while you may have left him no square to move his king to without getting into check.
@@DieFlabbergastTechnically, it is possible as @arpan points out. Unsure what the exact rule is, probably "Impasse" which is a draw. Practically, this will never happen in a real game, though, as the stronger player will checkmate long before stalemate.
Its true that both Shogi and Xiangqi are different, but by any reasonable metric the differences between Chess and Shogi are much greater. In particular, the drop rule fundamentally changes the nature of the game.
@@arpanagarwal2524 In theory yes, but basically has never happened unless it was done on purpose. Also when it is your move in shogi, it is YOUR responsibility to not move your king into check. If you make an illegal move, the game is automatically a loss once it is pointed out. In each move you have three choices: move a piece, drop a piece, or resign. So if it was the case that your king has nowhere to go and you have no pieces, your last choice is to bow and just say "makemashita" (resign).
One thing that I found quite interesting about your interpretation of the games is that you said that Shogi is more tactical than Chess and Xiangqi is more strategic than Chess. Most people would argue the exact opposite for the two games. Shogi has much slower-moving pieces, and at higher-level play, the game becomes extremely positional. Xiangqi on the other hand has no real concept of pawn structures, and every piece is poised to attack from the very beginning, so it ends up being much more aggressive and tactical. People say that Xiangqi starts right in the midgame.
I don't remember what I said exactly :D
But I would say the following:
Shogi is a game really far in my opinion from chess because of the dropping pieces.
The game is like there is a moment you can go for a tactical checkmate sacrificing everything and dropping everything on the King to checkmate.
In this sense it's tactical, but on the other hand I agree that a Shogi game can be... really long and has some positional aspects.
Xiangqi is a game on my point of view that is pretty "close" to chess, but I don't really think it's more strategic than chess, it's something different and yes you have some nice tactics with canons especially that are surprising for a chess player.
Yes Xiangqi is the more tactical.
@@bbzabstractgameswhats the difference between of tactical amd strategic for you? I think thats the key. Also Go game could be even more strategic in my opinion
@@TheFriskyBoy In Board games, Strategy is when you are trying to achieve something globally, for instance in chess it would be the openings, the fact of controlling dark squares or having a pair of bishopts, etc... Tactic is local, it would be a combination, a very nice move or sequence of moves that gain some material or a checkmate.
You have some games that are more strategic and some games that are more tactical.
You even have some games almost without any strategic aspect. If you know the game "Carcassonne" which is not an abstract would be one of them. You don't know what gonna be your next tile to place, the game is just draw a tile and try to make as much possible points placing it. Counting the tiles, remembering wich tiles will come is a big aspect of Carcassonne, which is not tactic and not strategic, memory is another part. You still can have strategy like "I will play my meeples in cities more than on roads" but it's not really deep. The game is a Tactic Memory one.
@@bbzabstractgames
Chess, xiangqi and shogi are games of tactics.
Go is a game of tactics and then strategy.
Great video, merci Florian! Couple of comments:
1) If you want to take up Shogi or Xiangqi regularly, even just casually, do NOT learn the pieces with Western symbols like in this video! The problem is that all tournaments, published materials and many websites will not support these symbols. Take 20-60 minutes (that is all it takes) to learn the Chinese/Japanese symbols. You will be rewarded by being able to access the bulk of published materials out there and live tournaments.
The rest of the comments apply to Xiangqi
2) The central 9-square zone in which the king (or "General") is trapped is called "Castle" rather than "Palace". I've also seen this translated as "Fortress", but "Castle" is the most common.
3) The two pieces in the castle with the king are called "Advisors" (not "Dwarves"). In notation (including this video) when this piece moves, it is given the letter "A" for Advisor". Some translations call this piece "Mandarin", but prefer "Advisor". "Mandarin" is old English for "Advisor" or "Councillor".
4) The elephant can be blocked if a piece is in the path of the 2-step diagonal move. Any piece which blocks the elephant's move is said (in Chinese) to be "in the eye of the elephant" (a beautiful phrase)
5) The king's don't "act like rooks to the other king", which is slightly ambiguous. The rule is usually stated as "the kings cannot face each other on an open file", which is simpler.
Florian makes a nice summary of the Xiangqi rules, but misses two vital rules:
6) 3-fold repetition does not lead to an automatic draw (like in Western Chess). It is sometimes illegal! When a stronger piece attacks a weaker piece, this is called "chasing" in Chinese. And "perpetual chasing" is NOT allowed. The most common scenario where this applies is when a piece like the rook attacks (or "checks") the king. In Western chess, perpetual check is a draw, but in Xiangqi the 3rd check is disallowed. In serious tournaments, you may actually lose the game immediately if you check for a 3rd time in-a-row. In tournaments with non-Chinese players, you will usually be given a warning by the arbiter (like making an illegal move), and allowed to redo the move. But "perpetual chasing" also applies if a rook attacks a weaker piece like a cannon or promoted pawn, or even if two rooks attack a piece. This is by far the most complicated Xiangqi rule. It is simplest to start by just thinking "perpetual check is not allowed" and forget about rarer perpetual chase scenarios for now.
7) Florian misses a really vital rule in Xiangqi - there is no stalemate! If the opponent cannot move, the player who cannot move loses. This is a common way to end a a game of Xiangqi.
Nice video, Florian. I agree with your comment that Xiangqi is more similar to Western chess than Shogi. I highly recommend this wonderful game.
This comment is from Alain Dekker who is a Pentamind World Champion (2004) and has played as a non-Chinese/non-Vietnamese in two Xiangqi World Championships (I was crushed by the strong Chinese GMs, of course!)
Thanks Alain for this very complete comment!
As someone with a lot of experience in this area, I disagree on point #1. Many people struggle to learn Chinese characters. It's okay to learn it however you want, but the most important part of is learning AND enjoying the game. Once you are familiar with the pieces, you can learn whatever symbols it takes, as this is necessary for interacting with learning material. But in the very early learning stages of the game, the actual rules and movements can be too much for some people.
@@CouchTomato87 You need to learn the symbols to progress beyond the "Yeah, I kinda know the rules" stage, though. Unless you're just looking to dabble, learn the symbols as early as possible as the reward/effort ratio is very high.
@@bigalain1261 that’s not quite true. I know two very strong players who learned using that internationalized set. As long as you can play it, it’s viable. The game itself is not changed
Strongly disagree on point #1. This alone has limited the growth of Xiangqi in Western countries. Xiangqi would grow outside China very quickly if it had symbols on pieces, and certainly I would like to see 3D pieces as chess has. Tradition is nice, but thinking outside box has its place.
I started with chess and then many years later took up shogi and xiangqi. I know a lot of people like to have 'favorites' but for me choosing between shogi and xiangi is like choosing between pizza and cake, or Beethoven and Mozart.
I might also add a third game to consider- *Janggi* or Korean chess. It is derived from Xiangqi but has enough differences to make it a distinctly different game. It is much easier to defend in Janggi and games tend to be considerably longer than Xiangqi. As a western chess player I felt more at home in Janggi than the others. I have also tried Burmese chess and Thai chess but I don't think think they are quite as good. But I don't mean that in a condescending way, I mean that only in comparison to shogi , xiangqi and janggi they are not as good. But if chess had never been invented and one day somebody came up with the idea for Burmese or Thai chess they would likely be a big global sensation.
Have you ever tried go?
Ok but what if both their armies went against the other
IMAGINE A BOARD WITH THE WORLD MAP AND ALL THE CHESS VARIANTS ALL IN ONE IN A ALL VS ALL XD
You can actually do that. There is a program called Zillions of Games that has a lot of classic games, and people can make their own games. I have seen someone come up with a chess pieces vs shogi pieces variant.
not possible because shogi is played on an 9X9 grid and chess on a 8x8. And this xiangqi is also played on a a totaly different board. So how are you going to balance this?
amazing
For me, between Xiangqi and Shogi, it is undeniable that both board games are addictive and fun to play, just like Western chess. I have a fondness for chess because it was the first board game I learned to play. Shogi I find very fun to learn and also very addictive. Xiangqi I believe is equally complex as Shogi and much more addictive (in my opinion).
Have you ever tried go?
I found shogi much more complex than xiangqi. Xiangqi is like chess but fast paced, but shogi is haywire. It's more addicting I'd say but the matches are longer so I don't for which I don't have time
@@shivamarya5225
Shogi takes about twice as many turns to decide as chess.
@ yes, but also there's barely any drawing chances so if you play the game there will be an outcome unlike chess. Also anyone who says xiangqi is more complex has either never played shogi or is biased due to their chinese heritage or something
象 棋
c-young chee