My Pet Peeves with Vtuber Designs as an Art Educator
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 чер 2024
- Hiya, I’m Iiji, and I’m a professional 3D modeler and illustrator, as well as a TA at a university teaching Drawing and Printmaking. I've got some STRONG feelings about vtuber designs.
I hope this is helpful or at least entertaining! Let me know if there are any other vtubing or art-related concepts you'd like me to cover too.
If you'd like to join my vtuber model critiques, you can enter here:
forms.gle/YM6vqzxGAmJ7ZobP8
______________________________________________
If you'd like to see more of my content:
Twitter: / squiiji_3d
Tiktok: / squiiji_3d
Tumblr: / squiiji-3d
Booth: squiiji.booth.pm/
VGen Commissions: vgen.co/squiiji_3d
Throne: throne.com/squiiji_3d
______________________________________________
Credits:
Free to use music: Noiseless: World noiselessworld.net/en
Stock footage: Pixabay
Vtuber background and model: Me! (: - Навчання та стиль
A lot of vtuber designs are always on their tippy-toes. And I can't unsee it either.
Or the turned in "have to pee" toes...I had to accept that as just being a part of the "vtuber style" hahaha
@@squiiji3D and here is Rossanan... with no feet
@@squiiji3D it's a part of the "act cutesy and girly and soft uwu" style lolol
@@squiiji3D that's just Japanese vision of cute girly legs with toes and knees caving in, forming X shape with their legs. K-on and other cute girls animes have this in their "moe checklist".
@@squiiji3D Henya from VShojo categorized into this.
That feeling when it takes a video about vtubers to find out you have apparently freakishly short arms IRL.
Me having slightly longer arms than normal and being aware of the deviation from standard anatomy biology itself is capable of
makes me disagree with the notion, that 'weird anatomy' in V-tuber design somehow requires
an unreasonable amount of suspension of disbelief.
Additionally those design choices may be in line with the theme/lore of the character,
for instance the wide hips VS thin legs in Kronii'S design might correlate with the proportions of clock and watch handles.
Yeah I got baby legs and a long torso and I'm realizing suddenly that it's crept into my style from referencing myself
Congrats!
it made me realize I had tiny hands and tiny feet
My arms go down to my knees 💔
Live2d rigger here. Mirrored eyes arent actually because of the art portion, when rigging we mirror the eye once we rig one of them in order to not have to rig the entire second eye to perfectly match the first. Some riggers dont fix the shine placement afterwards, but its a necessary evil.
But it's a relative quick fix, unless you have like 20 different sparkles going on. You still don't have to redo the whole thing.
Oh man my friend’s gonna hate me bc my eyes can’t be mirrored (due to layer ordering kek)
I think they know that and are instead encouraging people to put in that extra effort if they want to improve their design or make it less uncanny and don't know whats making it feel that way
@@HeckenschutzeMoH It's a basic art rule about lighting, eye shinies would both face the same direction as the light source, so when you draw eyes you place the shinies on the same side as the light (In vtuber styles this tends to be left or right upper corners). In live2d, bcz we copy paste and reflect the first eye, it causes the shinies to flip around too. Some riggers don't fix it after to make the shinies go back to the direction they should be, causing a weird effect!
The video she stated this as an error when drawing, as an art technique error while using the mirror tool while drawing the model. But it's usually not the artist at all, just the rigger which is what I was clarifying. ❤️
@inkuii don't worry lol. It doesn't cause the hugest time/effort differece during rigging so I wouldnt sweat it haha. My eyes tend to have really complex effects so I don't generally mirror them simply because it would cause me MORE work at times to go in and individually edit the differences manually anyway. (Since with odd eye effects you literally cant mirror certain textures)
Additional comment! I'm bit (emphasis on a bit) of a rigger myself, and the simplicity of shading on the face is because we use skin-coloured "masks" to hide things such as the mouth. Since Live2D models are 2D, flat images, there exists a layering system. The mouth is on top of the face and there has to be a skin-coloured mask on top of the mouth to cover it for when the mouth is closed, for example. This becomes nearly impossible when dealing with a ton of gradients unless there's more textures, perhaps? But that makes the model laggier and is also a lot more work for the rigger in question. Some exceptions include things like blush, freckles, beauty marks and sweat drops, where it's usually overlayed on a higher layer anyways. I'd argue it's often more of a necessary evil than a stylistic choice.
Is it a viable method to apply shading on a top layer above everything? I don't know anything about art or rigging I'm just curious
I haven't done any rigging, but since its worked in layers, can't the artist just provide the face without a mouth, and the mouth in a separate layer? Or does that not work?
@@groynin You need the mouth to be opening and closing. Best way to hide the open state of the mouth is by adding a layer of skin on top that can be moved when "opening" the mouth.
@@groyninThat is generally how it's done. The face on one layer, and the mouth on top of it in several other layers, one for each moving part. The problem is that when you open the mouth, you want to show the inside of it, so you have to have that as its own layer, but then when you close the mouth you need another layer on top of it to hide it again. And this layer will move around a lot as the mouth opens and closes, so it would run into serious trouble if there were shading involved.
Would clipping masks work for this? Similar to clipping everything inside the eyes to the scleras? Same question with face shading, if you can mask it to everywhere but the eye whites and mouth opening mask. Might be hard for the chin/jaw to accommodate at all mouth shapes (since the jaw usually doesn't move alongside mouth shapes but you kinda don't want to be too obvious about it), but you could probably get away with quite a bit of nose and cheek definition if you layer it over the mouth?
re: proportions; its a quite common real life variation (especially for east asians, i'm one myself) for the wrist to end up above the crotch like in the examples shown, i think that's why it's prevalent in anime
replying again now that ive watched the whole thing (the anatomy part reminded me of the times ive been told i got the anatomy wrong when i did *traced* studies of my own proportions and hands 🫠)
there are a lot of design paradigms in japan/anime that goes directly against the western design's, the 2 i can think of most being:
-western's BIG CONTRAST vs anime's "this slight difference in the way this character's eyes are drawn at the outer edges makes them a different character archetype entirely"
-western's "the highest details are where your viewers will focus on most" vs anime's "the focal point is the character's minimalistically drawn face, surrounded by a ton of details everywhere else"
very much the opposite way of approaching art/design, in direct contradiction with how character design is taught in the west
all in all i guess through the hundreds of character designs ive made, ive been influenced more by anime design paradigms than western ones, though i did study it the western way when i was getting into it... i do want to make a video about this difference in philosophy, hopefully i can get to it soon
re: clothes design being 'normalized'; this difference in design philosophy also goes into a lot of animes where the large cast of characters all wear the same uniform, with very slight differences on the uniform they wear, and the design focusing so heavily on the hair, face, and subtleties in the body build/proportion
re: accessories overload; it goes with the 'details as noise' anime design philosophy, the viewers end up focusing on the much simpler face, framed by so many details elsewhere
re: big hair silhouettes; a character with large elements behind them can still have a distinct silhouette, the big hair in this case being the 'secondary' silhouette, but only if its values has enough contrast for the rest of the body as 'the main silhouette' to still be readable
thanks for the excellent vod, it gave my braincells a lot of food!
@@RevenantXIII THIS!! Adding more tho, for the over accessorize things on a lot of anime styled designs could be attributed to harajuku fashion, gyaru fashion
@@RevenantXIII Love how much thought you put into this comment
@@RevenantXIII i just realized that thing you said about the wrists and how it's mostly asians. haha now i can't NOT notice it (i will never forget just how short i am from now on).
The wrist being above the crotch is not common in anime. Most all anime has the crotch on the same line as the wrist.
you're kinda getting cooked in the comments huh
BAHAHA I noticed this too I’ve only seen maybe 1 comment agreeing w this person? 😭
Lmao I wish I could see the dislike to like ratio
@@itrashcant7947you can! There are chrome extensions that bring back the dislike count
@@itrashcant7947Its not a horrible ratio... 20k to 1.6k lmfao...
ITS JUST THAT THEIR PETPEEVES SEEM REALLY "i just dont like this person, BUT THIS ONE THAT HAS WHAT I CALL PETPEEVE IS GOOD"
Example:
4:59 wouldnt pass the gray thing filter yet they still saying its very uniqur😭 yes, indeed, the style is very unique, but theres alot of pink, but the artist is so good that they make us focus on the face instead of all the info that its going around her
Anatomy can be tricky cause some of the things that may seem unrealistic has the potential to be real. That thought really hit me when showing examples of models who had tiny hands in comparison, because I actually related to the tiny hands and thick thighs. To me that genuinely felt proportional. Maybe it's not "average", but definitely within the realm of normalcy.
This person specifically does not seem to be good at anatomy. You're normal.
yeah imo the anatomy advice is bad here. the anatomy is stylized and it looks fine contrary to what they say. there are a ton of professionals that have stylized anatomy and u can tell it's stylized on purpose. which is also the case here
I think the advice Iji says it's valid bc otherwise drawings looks kinda weird(say it from experience, over 10 years of suffering with pen and paper, and even digital drawing now that i have a tablet), and that could be really problematic because a lot of the time, reality is imperfect, and we make, therefore, our ocs or fanart characters imperfect, and people really don't get that it is absolutely on purpose, and try immediately to correct you😅
And you are like
"No, they have crooked disgusting teeth on purpose, bc I HAVE IT TOO😂😂😂"
(or simply cuz we wanted to make something "not so perfect" for once
Uu -v-) )
So i would take her advice, but with a grain of salt.
Putting her on the side of the spectrum, and treating her as "the bad guy", is not a solution either
Stylize IMperfection is A PAIN IN THE ARSE😂😂😂
Making it look normal and/or natural is the most complicated part of it, really.
So i would say that those artists simply need to practice making it imperfect but real and not mistake-looking, just that
(I hope this last sentence made sense)
im puny with the thickest goddamn thighs. body types are so unique
right like i have super dainty wrists n long fingers but MONSTER thighs like there isn’t j one way we’re all made 😭
If you look at the proportions of East Asians (i.e. Japanese, Koreans, and some Chinese populations), they statistically have shorter limbs and longer torsos. By western standards, these vtubers might have “incorrect” anatomy, but this is literally what we look like over here.
I'm European and even I have shorter arms that the diagram. Not a single bit of Asian in me. It's just wrong. Even without referencing to myself I could tell it was off.
Anatomically I have longer legs and arms than the norm so even here in the US you can find variety in terms of arm and leg length.
I just checked my arm length in the mirror because of your comment (I'm Asian) and TIL I do have shorter arms than what's "anatomically correct"
It’s more of the height than race issue - the torso and limbs are not growing consistently in humans and limbs can stop growing before or after the torso is fully developed. Torsos in general vary in size (length) much less amongst different people than limbs.
You can notice that if you were to compare let’s say a short woman to one of an average height and to a model - proportion-vise (if we assume heads are identical in height) torsos will also be mostly identical in height (1 head - head, 2 head - nipples, 3 head -belly button, 4 head - a bit lower than crotch, total 5/6 heads for short, 7 for average, 8 for tall) but limbs will wary drastically. So, when we are designing a “short” character hands should be shorter in correlation to the torso (cause all limbs stopped growing earlier), for “average height looking” the diagram is correct, etc.
If we are having a character with 7 heads in height it means that they are not short in proportions, meaning that arms should be as long as in diagram, cause arms won’t stop growing separately from the legs.
Hope that helps 💖
Proportion varies, and it's more of how our brain will perceived something as 'normal' or 'weird'. I did a survey once (though with a small sample pools), and while torso-legs proportion can vary. In general, with 7 heads proportion, most people fall into either (head-body-legs): 1-3-3 ('normal'), 1-2-4 ('shorter body, longer legs'), and 1-3,5-2,5 ish (longer body, shorter legs). But even though the torso and legs proportions are different, most people have the same arms length comparative to their heights. Me myself have 1-2-4 proportion, and my wrists began slightly above the half point of my thighs and my fingertips slightly above my knees. Both upper arms and lower arms are the same length as the head, while hands are the same length as the face.
as an artist myself i really disagree with many points on this video , from anatomy to fashion, to details when it comes to face and in all honesty looking at your own model doesn’t really help the case here.
As much as i understand that this video is a personal opinion, i really feel like author isn’t doing a great job at justifying ‘style’ as i mentioned- looking at their model it is clear that there is bias towards a certain style and most of this video is just them expressing their pet peeves towards styles that are DIFFERENT from theirs and that’s where i have issue….
+ As someone who studied character design just as much , i will say that the overwhelming amount of details on outfits while having minimalistic face is rather to be preferred as it suppose to bring attention the viewer and not overwhelm them from looking away. If your eyes have no place to rest - it quickly becomes unpleasant experience.
And character design should be interesting, should be fun , should be detail because that’s what makes it fun for some people- to limit yourself with pinterest references of real life clothes is once again limiting to your creativity- please make weird and creative outfits , as long as it makes sense for you and you can explain how it works ? do it. Not everything suppose to be practical, sometimes fashion is just fashion.
i also want to add that one point is where i agree with them . I ve seen it has been said by someone who thought character design - if a toddler/ person who never picked up a pen can draw your character by memory (even poorly) and for it to be still recognizable, it is a good character design.
Balance/Contrasts are very important points in character creation
THIS!!! I thought it was just me lmao but yeah this creator even falls into some of their own "pitfalls". They dont have super complex face shading (they literally just added lots of freckles to distract from this) and the skin tone they chose is actually not well balanced with shading either, making it look very washed out. They do have very nice rigging tho
Yeah, these were my exact thoughts when watching the video. I also didn't like the contrast point that much imo, especially when the character on the left had almost completely black attire which makes up for the pale hair. Like, sorry, I didn't know that pale people with pale hair weren't allowed to be represented in animation lol
I was about to say this!! and the remark of the complexity of render in the clothing vs the face! The face is supposed to be the site where u rest and look the most at, so it is super important for it to be clear enough and the contrast is literally intentionally made,, 🙏 I feel that she missed that point so badly, I didnt even study anything art related but by watching a few other artists and studying a little by myself i feel that its common knowledge!
The problem is that, for some reason, people who go in trying to make creative outfits without limits keep coming out looking like the little lad who loves berries and cream
Asian here, this is my opinion:
The creator of this video doesn't seem to understand that these companies aim to appeal to a mainstream audience rather than a specific group of people. Their opinions are biased toward what they think is good design.
I don't understand why the creator criticized unrealistic body proportions, but then later at 2:40, they said that this 'hyperstylized' look gets a pass because it's "meant" to be like that.
The anime style can already be considered hyperstylized, as many of its defining traits are unrealistic (such as small necks, big eyes, and hair that is made of shapes rather than individual strands, etc.) So, what's the issue with long torsos/small feet? It's also a stylization.
Westerners seem to have a double standard; if a character is made chubby or with freckles and stubby arms/legs, it's considered good 'stylization,' but if a character is too tall and slender, it's deemed as bad anatomy. Why isn't that considered stylization as well?
Asian culture differs significantly from the West; Asians are typically much skinnier compared to Westerners, so the ideal body type aesthetic tends to be very lean, slender, and tall. If you ask Asians about their ideal type, it's usually a guy who's tall and slender with lean muscle but not too bulky, or a slender woman with a small waist. That is the beauty standard in Asia.
And of course, since these companies are based in Asia, they will try to appeal to the aesthetic Asians like. That's why I find it very pretentious that the creator of this video critiques the work of industry professionals as if they don't know what they are doing. Furthermore, all this criticism seems very subjective and biased.
It's the same with the clothing; it's made to be very detailed and realistic to be eye-catching and nice to look at, but faces are kept simple to avoid them from looking strange. Your example of what's good at 4:59 looks very uncanny and would not appeal to a wide mainstream audience. I'm sure the artist who made that is very talented, but the design is just not something that would be marketable.
I am certain that these companies could make vtubers with average human proportions if they wanted to, but that wouldn't have as much appeal to audiences in asia.
I find it very strange that this person's argument essentially comes down to their biased opinion of what is "good" and "bad" stylization. They define what is and isn't stylization, when in reality, anything that isn't realism is already stylized.
^^^^^
they also talk about grayscale but their model wouldnt pass the test either tbh or the model they showed that is full of pink, its alot of colors repeating
Their head looks strange with the body, iam a cartoonish anime artist and even for me this seem not proportional..
Its very clearly that they pick who and who they have petpeeves with.
Bro speaking facts!
i ain't reading allat but i know bro cooked🔥🔥🔥
This exactly! It's what was bothering me with the entire video.... You can't criticize Vtuber designs (at least the big names) without taking into account their target audience and marketability! It was all very subjective. The techwear part was understandable, but it's what's popular so ? And when they criticized the "simple" designs without even taking into account the lore of the characters and why they look like that and why IT WORKS. Overall a pretty misinformed video. I know it's personal opinions as suggested by the title, but the video itself presented it as some kind of "What's wrong with Vtuber designs" essay
"But with infinite money for clothes, i doubt many of us would stick with a t-shirt or sweater with jeans."
Do not underestimate my power.
bro is not like the others
I had an issue with that statement as well =_=;; there's also the whole "generic clothes don't talk about personality" -- dude, that is a personality and story being told in and of itself. Yeah, it isn't nearly as interesting, but it *is* a story and a personality =/ You don't know how annoyed I was with this video and some of the takes
@@gaerekxenosI also agree too!
I simply can't fully conceptualize what I would wear other than my normcore comfort workwear. My inner critic just does not have a basis of what else I would, or could, look like other than those clothes in the outside world.
The only other option is a suit and I just feel 'flattened' as a person/style in modern suits. Cover my face in a skin tone mask and I'll stop being me and just another 'suit' talking about projections and other 'flat' things.
lack of personality is not "power". having a personal style is wonderful and fun, and choosing not to develop a taste for what you like and dislike is just... boring! there is absolutely No Way you guys have actually tried to learn about fashion and made an informed decision that "yes, t-shirt with jeans is still the only thing i like here". like, genuinely and empathically, i have to ask: is this a fear of being seen as gay or something?
someone should critique YOUR design, girlie
REAL
RIGHT THE HANDS ARE MAKING ME CRYYY THEY LOOK LIKE PIGS FEET
Literally what i thought
My biggest pet peeve is tails: most people don't put them where the tailbone is, but in the middle of the spine because "I don't want it to look like it's a plug" and I'm like???
Regarding the Live2D faces being less rendered, it's not always a stylistic choice, but also usually a technical decision. It's the part that needs the most accurate and widest range of motion so putting more layers with shadows and highlights that can accidentally overlap or feel off in certain super specific angles or toggles (especially the mouth) just means more rigging work. And the more layers you have, the bigger the chances of error. Don't get me wrong, it can be done (and done well), but it's usually not worth the effort for most people.
Ohhh you know what, I'd never noticed that with tails, but now that you've said it I can't unsee it! 😅
For faces, I 100% understand how it ups the complexity of rigging (and therefore also the price), I just wish that instead of rendering the face less detailed, they'd make the level of detail in the face and body match, even if that means pulling back on some detail in the body. BUT I have seen some EXQUISITELY detailed models that are consistent, this is all about preference, patience, and time haha
@@squiiji3D matching body detail to what rendering can be done (within budget) for the face sounds like a great idea! Sorta for a more graphic result? Probably also helps with clarity in the outfit? 🤔
Similar to your mentioned tailbone, belly buttons are also drawn too high.
@@squiiji3D Then wouldn't that contradict with your point of less simple designs? Ik you're only referring to the shading, but some clothes and bodies need those shading to present an image. If the artist couldn't go ham on the faces, they pour it out on the bodies.
no no it's kind of fair that artists are paranoid about it looking like something thats going to lead to even weirder fanart
10:33 i think the clothing of yashiro, kagami, and oliver works well with their concept because yashiro is a salaryman, kagami is a CEO, and oliver is a professor. you do have a point though.
by the way, i had fun watching you nitpick vtuber designs because of how upbeat you are!
roberu from holostars is someone with really dramatic, heavy shading in the face, and it looks so awkard to me when he moves. I think the simple flat style is just easy on the eyes and works really well in motion. not that detailed rendering in the face cant work, its just a lot harder to pull off imo.
the problem with his (and iris' old model) is that there wasn't extra work put to make their models look good in motion (could also be a problem of artists not separating them into enough layers) so those models are kinda stuck with an effect from siren on ps2 (they put scanned pictures of actors faces and stretched them onto low poly models) but there it was done for a creepy, uncanny valley effect '^^
I do love Roberu, and I agree with this so much
I'm not a big fan of holo so I had to search him up and...HOLY WOAH THAT IS A LOTTTT
Didn't IRyS first model also has a similar problem of being over detailed? compared to the models of the other members she didn't "fit". But winning son be winning
no offense to the vtuber in question but using the model at 9:50 as an example of a "not overwhelming" character design is actually insane lmao
The man has teeth on the bottom of his shoes for goodness sake, but somehow that isn't overwhelming design. The design screams 2000s deviantArt I am Dethlord Bloodsorrow.
Its really less detailed in comparison to the others. Example, 4:02
Ikr?? As an artist, it would be a pain in the ahh to make this design. Cause its alor of unecessary information and his body below has so much going on, but then we get to the head wheres there.. 0% details that makes you want to focus in it
ur model sets off the "somethings wrong" thing for me
On the anatomy part i feel like you are very limited by the standard western body type and fail to consider various traditions there are when using an anime style (that, btw, are also inspired by non-western body types)
Western centricism in it's purest form.
also any other country's various body types lull
@@tovarishcheleonora8542 Even then these proportions very GREATLY in the West too. But even in the department of centricism I'd say anyone from a specific place that speaks a certain language will only be able to find certain results by looking for references online in their language, which will almost exclusively be things sourced from that area, so really anyone is somewhat limited in their search results and references by only searching in one language. This creator probably didn't have the chance to study an equal amount of proportions from across the world and is just going based off of what most of the references they have access to in English are. I'm learning Mandarin and one of the first things I do when I learn a new word is look it up to see images (to associate the word with the image and not just a translation) and if you look up the same thing in English for comparison the results are wildly different. I'd assume photo references probably are especially susceptible to that, given the models/sources and their origins.
@@huglife626 Even then the person should just not say things like as if it were a universal fact. Which shouldn't be too difficult even if you do it in english or whatever else language. While this youtuber obviously acts as if it were a universal fact or universal standard. (universal as in everywhere on this planet without exception)
@@tovarishcheleonora8542My point was that based off of where you live, the models you'll be able to study online are going to largely be from the same region and thus have the same rough proportions that you generally see day to day in that area. They likely didn't have the chance to see a drastic change in the average proportions of people from different regions than their own. And even if they did see a decent amount, they likely weren't aware of that being considered normal in those other regions. You act as if they did something terrible for simply stating what their research and studies have lead them to, and given where they're based as an artist, those general guidelines work out fine for them. I don't think they said anything that implies "everywhere on this planet without an exception", why the extremist outlook? Get yourself some nice tea or something. They get photo references from search results, which are done in their language, and coming from someone who regularly searches things in both Mandarin and English, the results of things as simple as coffee or congee come out totally different, and of course the same applies to models in many different regions and languages. Why make yourself upset simply because certain knowledge isn't universally available? We will never know everything so it's best to work with what knowledge we do know. I'm sure an artist based in another part of the world would be teaching the general proportions of their region, so why is it only a problem when a Westerner does it? You scare people away from educating themselves about other parts of the world when you treat them poorly for not already having that knowledge. All that does is lead to them being even more "ignorant" about other parts of the world and forming incorrect assumptions because they were scared away from actually learning anything.
These are all preferences, and many of the designs that she critiques are super popular designs, done by very successful artists. Don't let nitpicks like this stop you from making art your own way, your "incorrect" anatomy might just be used by multi billion dollar companies one day.
Exactly, as an artist with degree and job myself, I saw a lot accounts on social media of successful artists with different art styles, where arms, legs and etc. is too as these "professionals" call "short" or "long". And in real life I've met in my whole life people with proportions that are actually far beyond this common schemes, which tells where parts of your body "should end". Sure theory is good for start and fundamental, but they (people who give lessons on platforms) shouldn't tell other new potential artist that this information is the last truth and there's no other way to create art.
Ngl, I read "art educator" and immediately felt like something was going to be nitpicked but, to make an essay short, I echo the other comments; I would have avoided bringing up anatomy since anatomy isn't simple in both terms of rigging simplicity and the fact that people don't look like vitruvian man across the board. You seem to be going off of personal opinion rather than not, which would make the whole "art educator" point redundant and comes off as "my word is more valid than yours"
You sound like a sneeze
It really doesnt to me, whenever i go into an educational video i feel like its obvious to understand that it will never be fact, its not like maths where formulas and rules exist, you can choose to listen or not to art advice.
@@bok9596yeah but people can still criticize the UA-camr for some arguably wrong points. Depending if you doing it based off western character ideas or Japan’s character ideas.
FINALLY someone mentions about tech wear designs in vtuber models
but at 10:35 i’d like to add that those examples you give make sense lore wise. those vtubers are supposed to be high schoolers, professors, and office workers
i would say that some of their clothes are iconic for exactly how plain they are- and it reflects who they are as well, people who want to be seen more down to earth
Me an actual person realzing my arms a bit too short....
EDIT: also that's not fair to Ao-kun, there is a legitimate reason why she wears formal: and that is because she's a comedian trying to convince everyone that she's dandy and cool.
The diagram she is using as a reference is wrong
@@AllyFin so you're saying my short arms are salvageable? nice.
here's one: I'm saying your arms are way more than salvageable@@Valorhammer they are beautiful because they help you almost every minute you're awake. Be proud of your body don't let dumb art videos that aren't correct convince you you should be anything other than exactly who you already are
@@annaleev674 Thanks :D
Yeah, ao-kun's outfit fits so well. This person critiques outfits for "not showing personality" without knowing anything about their personality.
"My hands look like ballsacks but let me tell you how poorly-designed Fuwawa is"
nearly the entire video for me: she shows a "good example" which looks awful to me then she shows a "bad" example which looks great to me.
12:07 yupp
I have a hard time taking this critique video seriously while I'm staring at a model that I consider very unappealing while also highlighting numerous models/characters I think look much better than it.
Many of these designs you've referenced here are from very successful popular artists and designers. I'm not saying you have to like them, but you present this video as advice, but who is the advice for? (well, i suppose the video title is "pet peeves" but the video itself comes off less that you just dislike these things yourself but rather think they're objectively wrong).
Rather than say "these things are wrong" you should ask yourself why these artists are so successful despite having what you perceive to be issues.
Again, I'm not saying you need to like them, or that these artists are infallible. Just perhaps consider if these things are really matter at all if people can be as successful as these artists are with these perceived issues.
Like think of it this way - on what basis did you learn that these things are wrong? For most of them I'm sure it's because that's what you were told right? I know because it's the same stuff I learned when I was younger. Lots of these things are just "true things" but really ask yourself, if these things are actually wrong, why do so many artists become so popular and successful with then?
If I were to be very blunt I think much of your criticisms in this video come from ignorance and a healthy does of dunning Kruger effect.
This is my problem with a lot of "art educators" they're not actually that amazing at art but get accustomed to being treated as an authority in the classroom where all they do is parrot art basics to the point that they think anything going outside the basics is wrong.
People who are famous artists in the japanese industry know more than some random teacher from america about how to make appealing japanese style designs.
"Rather than say "these things are wrong" you should ask yourself why these artists are so successful despite having what you perceive to be issues."
I mean this is pretty obvious isn't it? Financial success has nothing to do with technical skill and everything to do with market perception.
Anime art is some of the lowest skill art out there, for a good reason-the animators of the past needed to draw frames quickly to deliver the final product on time. The style has been around for so long that it has become an acquired taste, and so it sells well despite the low skill ceiling.
I mean obviously modern anime art has been enhanced so much now (mostly due to corporate pressure on animators and exploitation of their passion...) that it isn't as low skill ceiling as it was before, but you get what I mean.
That's why it's better to not concern yourself with these things if you're trying to start something up. You can always refine later.
@@Cherryblossoms110 your ignorance with this comment is impressive.
Be more humble, it's quite evident you (like the creator of this video) have a lot to learn.
Ye the person who made this videos' avatar looks so bad to me😅 the people in her video looks so much better!@@NihongoWakannai
As an artist myself I personally disagree with the assessment of Kronii's model as if you look up "Tall and slender women" You see the exact same build/feet/hand proportions on them as you do Kronii; There are people who are both busty and tall/slender, haha
Also, it's more than likely a stylistic choice as her artist has a distinct style as seen in Fate/Extra and Fate/Extella. Like I remember instantly recognizing it just off her debut model as it screamed Fate/Extra
As somebody with common sense, born into a female body, know how bra measurements work, and has basic understanding of how the human body works, it's impossible to have a body fat percentage where you have tits that big and legs that small unless you have a medical condition or get breast implants.
There's a reason why, if you actually google "tall and slender woman", 100% of them have smaller breasts.
Conversely, if you googled "fat woman", 100% of them have larger breasts. It's almost like breasts are mostly fat and it's impossible to be "fat" and "slender" at the same time without plastic surgery or a medical condition or something (gasp).
Like, dude, look at Ouro's bust measurement. It's tiny as fuck. I know most people think DD is a big size, but it really isn't. Her bust is so fucking tiny that her cup size would be J size.
Like, AA A B C D DD F G H I J
Hmn...illustrator and designer for over 20 years here. I disagree with a lot of your personal grievances about certain design aspects.
Your credentials dont mean much when your advice is lackluster and only fit within a box you deem correct.
I would also recommend understanding others personal taste rather than...just your own, and what you think is "good".
That being said, I understand they truly are just your personal tastes~
That last passive aggressive comment is exactly why I don't draw anymore.
I don't understand why but the community is always toxic as fuck, passive aggressive, and littered with false positivity. It's so gross.
@Cherryblossoms110 The reason for passive aggression is because they are actively doing the same thing to the official designs artists? They know very very basic knowledge of designing (especially with other people's interests in mind) and are saying the designs aren't good at all......but thats okay to say about someone's art?
I think reviews should at least TRY to be unbiased and actually based behind adequate knowledge and understanding.......it's just personal bias most of the time....
I hope you pick drawing back up. I'm sorry you don't feel comfortable anymore because of comments like mine...but it's also just my thoughts....they are not towards you...and you aren't acting like your words are law and criticize others as well....
For the stylistic consistency thing, I've been told by a vtuber designer that the simpler face makes sure the model doesn't end up looking uncanny or cheap! It's more like an easy, non-risky thing way of designing that corporate vtubers love. Especially corporate vtubers that need to match vibes with their friends.
Kinda hard to give personality through clothes when _there is no person behind it yet._ Aren't the models done before they choose a talent? In that case it would be impossible to relay personality unless it's generic things - which the talent then have to keep up.
They're either fully done or mostly and vtubers can request some small adjustments at best
I think when it comes to corpo vtubers showing off their personality through clothes it's better to look at their 2nd, 3rd, etc model, not the initial one but even then there are cases when the company gives the artists theme for a group and both the artist and the vtuber have to work within it
Disagree
it seems that the talents are chosen to match the model's concept. meaning that if they have the concept of a fun-loving guy who's super energetic and they make a model for him, they're going to look for a talent who matches that vibe.
i'm sure there's deviations to this, but it's something that should be kept in mind
extra edit: not that you're wrong when it comes to finer details such as interests and tastes. what i'm saying is that they're actively looking for the person who matches the model/concept best, so yeah they already have a personality in mind
@@inkcat7 Well yeah that's a given. I meant more about the nuances of a real person. That's why I said if it's just the generic stuff, like being "fun loving guy" then the match would be easy. But what she's asking for is more than a 1 dimensional representation of the character. Which in corpo is nigh difficult. The request is more plausible with Indies or a corpo with more freedom.
This problem is solved in a 2nd outfit tho. So that's what should be criticized. Those have the touches of a real person.
To my understanding the models for corpo vtubers are almost all done, that’s why vtubers make such a big deal of their 2.0 models I think, because those often allow them to express themselves more because they’re involved with the process from the start
As someone who has worked in games design (specifically character design and concept) what are you yapping about? I was really trying to be neutral but every little think you criticize is really just personal preference. The amazing thing about art is that it can be whatever people want and if you don't need to be historically accurate let people just go fucking nuts.
Also first you complain about too much going on with their outfits and then you switch to saying the plain ones are also not okay? So which is it?
I have some criticisms of your critics. First, the one that bothered me a lot was the "these outfits don't tell enough about the character" when referencing Genshin. Hoyoverse puts a lot of care into their character designs, so just because they don't put on the nose stuff on their outfits doesn't mean they're not telling about the character. This commentary comes off as especially close-minded taking into consideration that Eastern designs and mindsets don't necessarily follow the same as Western.
The anatomy one is very tricky. You see, I noticed that people have different "body anatomy" while doing quick drawings of real people in different poses to practice. Some people have shorter arms, while others have longer ones. I, for one, have shorter arms, and a couple other things you've mentioned as being "wrong anatomy".
Over-detailing makes the art more fun to look at, and attempting to draw an over-detailed character is a great way for fans to learn to simplify things instead of always drawing every detail.
Other points were tackled by other people, so I'll leave you with only those three. Overall, just try to keep in mind how Eastern styles may work differently from Western.
As someone with a wingspan (fingertip to fingertip) the same as my height and long legs with a short torso I'm not a fan of those first few anatomy points lol I'd prefer variability (within reason). And that pic of Ver's body with heads stacked is why my art improvement was stagnatn for so long when my mom sent me to some random person for art lessons :')
She's wrong about the arm anatomy lol. Take what she says about anatomy from now on with a grain of salt. That diagram is just wrong as a guide. It's more common to not fit to it's proportions.
@@AllyFin I’m glad you agree, I hadn’t seen a single person say anything contrary to her points in the comments so I worded it as politely as possible to avoid being called a hater or something lol it’s also weird to hear that she would dock points on assignments for things that are normal for humans to differ in (re: anatomy).
I also disagree with the anatomy, I’m someone with short arms and I don’t mind seeing characters with short or long arms. People’s body’s are VERY different and have different proportions
@@AllyFin the diagram is fine, the problem is that it's supposed to just be a starting point for beginners to learn basic anatomy, once you have that foundation then you can try lengthening or shortening different parts. This person is confused and thinks that the basic fundamentals are somehow unbreakable laws.
your vtuber design is a compilation of my pet peeves lmao
Lot of neat points which I mostly agree with; my one nitpick mentioned about 8:16 on the Genshin characters -
You say they don't tell you a lot about the character but the designs absolutely do. There is a ton of symbolism in their designs. Zhongli who you showed with the various questions - is formal, tidy, and professional. He's one of the oldest deities for a country ran on contracts and business. His warm palette is because he controls the element is Geo/Earth.
So I feel it's a bit off to say their designs "don't tell you a lot" when playing the game shows the opposite due to being in context, along with their theme music and such too.
Many random reaction people will correctly guess about characters just from design and theme song only, so the design has to be onto something.
Yeah; this applies to pretty much all characters in Genshin, there's a ton of symbolism in the tiny details and history and lore based things you don't notice until you've learnt the lore
I think they are talking more about personality and the character's preferences thierselves rather than thier backstory. Yes , from a gaming standpoint zongli has the elegant fantasy formal suit in the color of the earth element so we know he is a probably powerful clean cut type of earth elemental.
But what does that tell us about zongli personally, in relation to everyone else in the world? If everyone must be designed in formal fantasy clothes by default what does that tell us about what the wearer finds comfortable to wear? If all girls must wear shorts or skirts what can we know about the person by looking at them.
@@ebel-mt2dm I feel like it tells us a lot about him personally. That he's business ready, sophisticated, older, and more classy as a person in the things he likes such as where he dines the things he (has the parlor) buys - it's only after we get to know him more deeply that we see the more eccentric parts of him that don't think needs to be displayed in his clothes.
Yes exactly. I watch a UA-camr who’s a pretty well known illustrator and he has a series where he draws characters based on their descriptions and can get almost scarily close. It’s a testament to how well designed genshin characters are. May be remembering his name wrong but I believe it’s saito naoki on yt.
@@kyuubisgirl3232Who's the UA-camr? That series sounds fun and I wanna check it out!
I came here to learn, but the first part 'anatomy' already frustrated me. Now i think you are the one who needs to learn.
PREACH
For sure
A lot of people have talked about (from a rigging standpoint) why vtubers will have overly complex outfits but not complex faces but - from a corporate perspective - if you are to have 3D models (most of them looking spot on to the 2D design) it makes a lot of sense for the faces to be simple. Considering 3D Vtubers were the standard for a bit when VTubing was less of what it is now, that meant it was always in companies minds. So designing models requires companies to plan for that. Especially considering the number of talents big corporations have, when theyre on stage together or in a 3D live you will want some semblance of uniformity. And that also means that from a distance (say for concerts or 3D programs) the faces dont get that hard to read. And the outfits are the identifying feature.
Also from a company aspect. Often times these companies design characters in a way to avoid them ever looking “ugly” which is something that can come easily with more and more and more details being asked of a rigger in live2D. Awkward unavoidable angles are not what idols are supposed to look like (since VTubers are what people tune in for.)
Of course theres also the fact that this has been extremely common in anime for a long time like you mentioned. And for good reason. If its busy everywhere your eyes will want to go to some sort of a break or less busy area. Which is the face in this case! Its like having a sea of noise surround a simplistic island. It forces peoples eyes to want to rest at the face most of the time. Which is where Vtubers want the viewers eye to go.
I think it plays into why exactly VTubers can get outfits without loosing too much visually. Their faces are what people are focused on.
i might be biased here because i know more about this particular case but when you mentioned how the fancy fantasy outfit look doesn't really fit the person behind the character well that may be true in most cases but since you showed ceres fauna as an example i had to clarify that with her it's actually incredibly fitting. if you do enough digging you can actually find that she was and occasionally still is really into dressing up like that even going out in public basically looking like a disney princess at times. it's also very fitting for her lore as well, at least from the way she likes to describe it
The designs of models not meant to be a representation of the actual person, but to fit the lore/backstory of the character.
Half of the critiques apply to you 😂
Have to agree with the sentiment of 'who is this advice for?'. You're presenting some of the most beloved and successful VTuber designs out there and effectively saying they're not good enough, then juxtaposing them against indies who at minimum have the same pitfalls. 10:10 is monochromatic and excessively detailed, not easy to simplify as a plush. 9:28 you say the over-the-top girly motifs are too excessive, then praise the teeth motif at 9:47, which is just as aggressive, but 'simpler' due to the artist (frankly speaking) just not being as proficient as the previous example. It does feel like biased advice coming from a strongly western design philosophy, in a market where the eastern stuff... works.
So I guess I'll describe what I'm seeing as you mention these designs that perform excellently, but you're saying are missing the mark.
The first thing is raw drawing skill. These eastern artists are broadly just better. This is in terms of fundamentals; perspective, proportion, composition, shape language, colour choice, value, texture, line, and anatomy. Western cartooning exaggerates these things to the extreme and as a byproduct has pretty much lost them. You're an art tutor, but unable to draw a figure with 3D value, commiserating 'anatomy is hard' when presenting as negative examples designs with beautifully finessed shapes and silhouettes. Just by their ability to get their volumes so right, you don't think these people know their anatomy?
They do -- but they're opting for these specific proportions for the overall flow of the character. The overall impression is way more important than adhering to a rigid 8 heads rule, and each element is just a piece to build up that 'overall impression'. Rosemi, for example, has a beautiful shape rhythm of thin bust to wide dress, accentuated by the rhythm of thin shoulders -> wide sleeves -> thin wrists. The proportions of those shapes themselves guide the eye through the design, and if her arms were longer, they'd overhang her dress, this element would break, and she'd look less like a cute petite princess and more like a gangly goblin.
So the basic ethos here is more about accentuating the whole 'composition' than getting every one piece scientifically right. It's to juxtapose extreme, accurately realistic details (clothing folds, textures, lace, hair, etc) with a fantastic kind of simplicity (faces, proportions, bare skin etc) to accentuate the underlying beauty and personality of the form or element in question. (And these anatomical variations aren't even outside the realm of real-life possibility, either--western cartooning philosophy even says to exaggerate shapes or proportions to convey a mood, but balks when eastern artists do it because they do it more subtly and with more anatomical knowledge, ironically.).
Like the Kronii at 3:08. I mean, yeah, she has small hands and feet to emphasise her overall sleekness, smoothness, and ultimately her waist and her bust. It's a purposeful composition choice to draw the eye up to her legs, then hips, then bust. Or the model right after--she's cute, and the thick thighs are her charm point, it's where the whole flow of the design goes to, because her small hands and feet encourage a flow up her arms and legs; ultimately emphasising her as playful and sporty. It's not unintentional.
So next: facial shading or lack thereof. It's to provide a negative space that allows the complexity of neighbouring elements to draw the eye to the face, while emphasising the eyes, which are the most important part of the character. It's also to convey smoothness of the skin, and easier to rig. The examples at 4:01 are really egregious. The model on the left is performing perfectly when it comes to 'neighbouring complex elements elevating the face'. Shiori's the same; the contrast of the plainness of her face against the complexity of the rest of her design really makes her face, and especially her characteristic eyes, pop.
When it comes to fashion... you criticise a lot. Cyberpunk, street fashion coats and dress: too popular, out. Formalwear, mythical, prince and princess-y designs: too popular, generic, out. Casualwear or school uniforms, too boring, out. Fantastical crazy over-the-top magical princess stuff, too over-the-top, out. You don't think they're purposefully going over the top? Yes they are! This is coming out of harajuku, idol, lolita, various -kei styles, and general fashion trends in Japan, which have certainly been around longer than Genshin Impact... and then exaggerated even more because of the ability of a drawing to break physics, and then *even more* by the fact they don't have to animate it. It's, again, about that ethos of juxtaposing extreme detail with extreme simplicity. And they're absolutely to convey information about the character! I mean, I'd wager all those cyberpunky characters... are indeed cyberpunky characters!
Then shifting to the simple designs, the one on the left at 10:33 is great. That is hitting perfectly the market that it's aiming for. They actually all kind of are. It blows my mind that you don't think 10:51 is distinctive just because it uses a t-shirt, or that the Aubeary one doesn't convey enough character. Doesn't it say something about the type of person someone is if they have all the options in the world... and DO just wear a t-shirt?
Fuwamoco look great, and the blue/pink accents in their hair work to make their faces/eyes pop while retaining the character element of them being cute blondes (you know, a bit like a pretty french maid, or maybe a Labrador Retriever). We don't need to exterminate the pale-skinned blondes, or by extension, every single pale-skinned character that also has white or light hair, of which there are countless lovely examples. Victoria I agree though needs some change to her bangs or an accessory on her face to draw more attention to it, the hair accessories are kinda high-contrast and draw the eye more around her face than into it. Fuwawa's eyes ironically pop out very strongly when you zoom out on her while your model's eyes get kinda lost by the high saturation of the clothing elements (no tiering of saturation or use of shapes to point emphasis to the face) and well the mushroom hat.
12:08 on the right; the low pastel saturation isn't the issue, it's cute, it's that the inner lines are (ironically) too saturated/uniform/thick. I'd thicken her chin line a little and then I think she'd be fine.
The silhouette of your model on the right at 13:28 does look quite cool with the poncho.
The horizontally mirrored eyes actually killed me. As an artist who used to make the same mistake I just died inside.
You’re not alone!!!
10:35 I think ordinary designs can actually be good, especially for the examples referenced here. The girl on the left is a sweet schoolgirl with occultish tastes, and her lore concerns how she came to be murdered and became a spirit of sorts. The whiplash between the unassuming design and the graphic lore is pretty interesting I think.
The guy on the left is literally your ordinary tech guy. His name is even a pun for “corporate slave” (japanese slang for a worker who’s overworked by their company). He doesn’t have any otherwordly aspects, no lore, just a guy chilling and having fun. In his case his design perfectly embodies who he is, and that has helped him rope in audiences that aren’t interested in cute anime girls or hot anime guys. There are a lot of guys in their 30s who watch him, and I think he wouldn’t have been able to reach that demographic if he had a flashier design.
But then again, both of them are affiliated with Nijisanji, meaning that their brand name gets them enough exposure that people will give them a try despite their bland designs. I do agree that for indie vtubers having a memorable design that hooks people in is important.
7:58 Ao design did not aim for fantasy formal outfit, it's just normal formal-casual outfit, because in her official hololive website, it said that she always dress immaculately in public. And she's just a human in earth.
09:45 She really choose the most overwhelm, confuse and satured design possible with no value difference in color palette as a example of "Not overwhelming " 😭😭
Sorry but my impression is that you jumped in into the subject without knowledge of any experience or past work of various illustrators in question, so youre unable to put their designs in context or understand decisions they may have taken. Formal education only goes so far. Detailed clothing for low detailed anime characters has been a thing for ages, ever seen those photoshopped pictures with anime characters put into real life photos? it can work under certain conditions. I mean look at any ufotable anime (like demon slayer) and compare the detail of the backgrounds to detail of the characters , or Makoto Shinkai movies.
Some of these designs successfully achieve their intended aesthetics and shouldnt be seen as a mistake.
Your take on simple designs is honestly better than what I heard in the video. And the fact that you used Makoto Shinkai's movies as an example on it really makes a good point that "generic" school girl clothes shouldnt be viewed as a mistake. Imagine if Mitsuha Miyamizu had a really detailed outfit for an ordinary high schooler in the country side, sometimes simplicity can also be important when considering the background of the character and I thank you good sir/ma'am for making this comment and actually make it sound logical.
Bodies always have variation when it comes to proportions, you can have long and short big and small anything on your body. You can be tall and have small feet and hands, you can have a short or long torso, you can have short arms etc. Always sticking to the "correct" proportions is boring and nothing to worry about in my opinion. Everyone looks different irl anyway
literally all of the points about skin tone apply to your character tho 😂😂😂
They dont, the gray scale skin tone is contrasted by the bright orange and white, keeping it from looking too gray and washed.
@@MOON_nixx nah man,,, the skin is a weird inbetween of realistic and washed out+the shadows dont have a strong enough color direction to indicate whether or not its meant to be a realistic skin tone or a grayed out mushroom one- accidentally ends up looking like one of those anime dress up games w the 1 brown skin color option
i think either committing to it being less human or more human will fix that washed out effect (esp uncanny when its mixed media and u can see the model against squiiji's actual skin)
"It's only bad when i'm not the one making it"
When i saw this video pop up on my recommended I thought; “hey! Why not see what she has to say?!” And i was so not prepared for how much this video would infuriate me. I agree with almost all of the comments here. I cant go into depth about how i even feel about this video but one major thing that annoys me is how you seem to make all these beautiful and creative models “bad” in a certain way to somehow make your model even better which irritates me beyond belief. All the models you showed, yes, have some things that could be changed, but comparing them to your model for almost 90% of the video is totally not okay.
akutagawa pfp😮😮
I automatically agreed with you before reading your comment because you had a bsd profile
@@_.ASTRONOMY._ ong
Creative???? Lmao!! 5 million cat girls, with different hair colors, is not creative
I just have to say it, BSD has some of my favorite character designs and I agree with your opinion partially because of the pfp.
I think you're suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Although you have studied and are currently teaching people, that doesn't mean that you're qualified to do so.
Besides anatomy and proportions, a lot of your points fall under oversimplification or generalization. You skip the
context on which a design was made to then say "this doesn't say anything neither does it add to your character".
Also two of the designs that you called "good" are impossible to read or make little to no sense, them being 9:46
and 10:09 (you quoted this last one as good twice, when it also falls under the point you were trying to make of
some designers overusing accessories).
You're being way more subjective and relying on your own taste than needed. For example the two designs that
I mentioned above are pretty similar on art-style than your own model, which is pretty western-y or the so called
tumblr art style. Your design also has a washed-out skin color, the rest of the colors on your model are also pretty
washed-out but are slightly better than the skin.
Expanding your fashion and cultural knowledge could benefit you a lot. So far it seems that you're relying on what
you have studied and applying it using your own limited personal bias/taste instead of also improving that side
of yours.
I've seen a lot of western folk follow the path of "I went to art school therefore my opinion > yours" while also having
subpar or amateurish art skills and solely relying on theory that they can't apply themselves to try and prove their
point that is has become concerning.
I commend you for trying to help out people, but there's a lot you need to work on, and understand, for this to not
become something heavily biased and unreliable.
NOTE: 1:39
The character to the right, Machina X Flayon, has an androgynous body. It is, like most art is, exaggerated for clarity
reasons; but anatomically accurate. There's a character settei that has Flayon without the coat on, it showcases his
body-type way better.
yes i agree 100% their critisms are very and strict to the book and also a bit biased, allowing little room for creativity. also i thought it was odd that they dismissed monochromatic designs so much. a lot of contrast doesn't just equal good, and less contrast doesn't equal bad. also i'd be really interested on their opinion on this comment but it seems like they only pay attention to the people who agree with them :/
@@irlcatra yeah a ton of well-written criticism and yet no responde to them. maybe they will respond in a video who knows
To be honest, the 9:46 and 10:09 not really looks too good. Okay, maybe some people would like it, but for a vtuber model it not really fits and just looks super weird. Those looks more like as if someone were just cut out a character from an image from pinteres or deviantart or whatever website.
@@ehyzen No, they won't. These "art critic" youtubers usually only care about the comments that praise them (so about the simps) to boost and polish their ego.
yes get her lol
Genshin character designs do tell you a lot about the character. For example Furina, she's the human form of Focalors and there to play the part of a God and entertain the people of Fontaine (french inspired) opera-style. She's a performer and her outfit reflects that. Whereas Focalors has the same face but her outfit relects something entirely different. She's ethereal, calm and holds an elegant confidence. She has a dress and more like a dancer's light outfit. Her entire cutscene reminds of a ballet dance. Her hair is also longer and flowing down her back, whereas Furina's is shorter cut to fit her performer design. You can basically dissect every genshin character's design just like this. It gets to the point where people see two pixels in a trailer and can tell which characters they are lol
as many people pointed out, the simple faces boil down to ease of rigging for the live2d rigger.
the face is the section that requires the most attention during rigging since the current standard is a 45-85 degree head turn, whereas the body you can kinda get away with simpler rigging or have it barely even turn, which is why they need to make sure there will be less issue when rigging the face. adding lots of detail and definition makes it harder to juggle all the parts correctly, and makes it extremely easy to fall into "something is off" territory the more moving parts there are.
most live2d riggers are not artists, so i can see it being difficult, since even with the simplified face style there are still riggers who end up with a bit of an uncanny look due to lack of anatomical knowledge. its easy to get extremely frustrated when rigging things that are not the current standard you are used to. so although yes indeed live2d riggers should practice and learn how to rig more complex things, it balloons the budget for the rigging section that a lot of clients are unlike to pay for anyways tbh.
if any aspiring model artists are watching this video, if you decide to stray from the standard face cutting method, please please talk with the rigger you will be working with to make sure if you plan to be adventurous with your shading that it wont be a nightmare for your rigger!
(also adding to the arms things, east asian arms are just generally shorter, mine end just after my crotch area, so when it comes to anatomical distribution one must keep in mind that the standard western proportions may not fully apply to everyone.)
Also, the vtuber models never supposed to be realistic. They're actually supposed to be anime-like (japanese cartoon). So it's enough if your brain recognize it as something similar to a human, there is no need to make it scientificaly accurate.
Tbh, I feel like for a lot of these, you seem to be kinda missing the point of a lot of these designs and why they are the way they are, more specifically with corporate VTuber designs; main reason why is that for the most part, they mainly tend to apply more of a mascot philosophy with them, since a lot of them are either meant to be full-on idols or are meant to be a brand of their own, and having things like simpler faces to contrast the complex outfits are something that's used to make them more flexible and less off-putting to a general audience while simultaneously making their designs unique to stand out amongst the crowd
Also no offense, but a lot of the overall topics you seem to have problems with alongside some of the examples you showed here I frankly just... don't really get behind at all? Like, for example, you talk about how having models that are overdesigned and how that makes them feel cluttered and intimidating to the audience, but that one specific design you show at 10:09 honestly looks like the complete _opposite_ to what you're implying to me here, like the face looks faaaaaaaaar too overdetailed here, especially the eyes, and in general the design just looks unappealing and hard to get behind for me, while the example you show at 10:18 honestly looks... fine? Like it's pretty good art, it looks pleasing, and doesn't make me feel intimidated at all? Like, there's a lot of these things that you're talking about that I simply don't agree with (though that one in specific is one of the most egregious IMO), and I don't know what you're trying to imply here with a lot of these exactly, frankly I'm getting more confused than anything here
Also, in regards to the contrast thing at 11:48, both of them look uhh... perfectly fine from a distance? Probably more so because there's a lot more variety with the colors overall with their models, but also even with the contrast thing it's pretty easy to see their hair and their models from that specific distance you showed overall, while _your_ design honestly blends in a bit too much personally, mainly since the two main colors that I'm seeing with it are like, white and purple I guess, which isn't good enough in terms of overall color variety and indeed, does make your model blend a bit more than the others which at least had more variations in their colors, so uh... I dunno, I just don't think what you're saying is valid in this specific example honestly
Now, admittedly I'm not exactly an artist (I'm a musician though at least), but I do still know some principles of art and design due to me hanging around with a lot of people like that, alongside me seeing a lot of examples of both good/great art and bad/appalling art; frankly though, even with my limited knowledge I can still see some flaws with what you're saying, and while they might come from a place of ignorance I don't know for sure whether or not that is the case considering just how easily I've been finding problems with what you're saying in general, so uh... yeah, sorry for being a bit too rude and personal I guess, but I just didn't feel like this video was all that good and I'm just giving my honest thoughts here I suppose
“weird fashion” 😭 huh….? such a weird thing to put in the thumbnail … especially when the clothing is, in fact, not weird… vtubers are meant to be flashy. and anatomy…? look at your model bro
Regarding things like the simplistic faces, the seeming misproportioned anatomy and outfits, many have already pointed it out so i want to discuss some other stuff like white on white designs.
I think a lot of artists keeps hearing from professionals about values and contrast that they just start to regurgitate the same stuff over and over without understanding much. The truth is, the values of your artwork doesnt tell the whole picture and hues plays a huge role in helping to differentiate colours too. This is why sometimes when people shade, they use colour variations to make the shadows or highlights look more interesting but if you grey scale it, a large part of that is overlooked. "white on white" designs can absolutely work and the examples that you have shown has clearly achieved that in a tasteful and interesting manner because of the colour picked, the lineart drawn, the shading done, etc. its also a bit arrogant to say that those designs are guilty of such a thing and yours isnt when yours look objectively worse than the designs you picked out...
i think you should just sell the advices in this video as you have indicated in your title, as your individual preferences, rather than advice for everyone which you have tried to sell in the video. Professionals can be wrong and can be biased, especially in an objective subject like art.
As a fashion student I completely agree with you on the fashion! Fashion is a means to express who YOU are as a person so I absolutely love seeing people create unique outfits and styles reflecting that. Nothing wrong with like the tech wear, Geshin Impact, or simple clothing it’s just so many vtubers use those styles. I wanna see the wow factor, the drama, and looks I’ve never seen before that say what the vtuber is all about.
I think a lot of vtubers prioritize what's trendy and popular over what could make them unique or unusual tbh. Because the generic thinking process of most content creators who haven't studied their audience well is to just do what's trendy and already popular and hope that it helps them catch attention, but in reality it leads to most viewers growing desensitized against those same-face techwear/genshin/alt goth/e-girl/'generic sensual lady with mommy milkers' models because too many people have them already. It's also hard to get into fashion because there's so much of it it's hard to find where to start. Actually could be a good idea for someone who's into fashion to start like an educational channel that could help both people interested in fashion and future vtubers to define their preferences better and how those preferences shape the character's design.
I’m sorry but that whole thing you wrote is UNDERSTOOD ONLY by people that ACTUALLY try to be fashionable! you can’t ask you average person to suddenly UNDERSTAND how to express personality through fashion! ain’t a think you just learn in 1 days! most people have an idea of what their charaxters wanna look like including cloths
YET you say they don’t express the person? what you are looking for is an fashion expression of an personality which ain’t any way something the majority of people have
@@RavenL1337 let's be so for real now, most people don't express their true identity through a plain hoodie or a shirt lmao
@@kymbbmYou are correct with all the trends, styles, and designers trying to know more about fashion can be very overwhelming. I think a good place to start is to pick a form of media that you like the style of. I’ll use an anime for example since most vtubers watch anime. Say you like the style of “Nana” look for images or art of the anime and use them as inspiration for the basis of the character you are trying to create.
@@RavenL1337Fair point I live in a fashion hub so to me it’s “normal” that everyone has unique and experimental clothing. Most of the world is not like that so I’m not expecting every single vtuber to have super unique outfits I just like seeing them when they pop up.
i actually really like the coloring on 4:00 with the face having not as much shading. i understand it might clash a bit with the detailed shading but at the same time i like that it's cleaner? it makes for a nice break in between the super detailed parts and reduces the amount of clutter for me
i also try to keep in mind that the model will usually be accompanied with a lot of clutter onscreen for whatever is being streamed so readability and a sort of physical line break is pretty neat imo. i wish there were more simple cell shaded models
This is gonna be a long spiel cuz im bored but~
imo, a lot of these critiques are short-sighted. Outfit design is perfectly fine and fits most of vtuber's story. Like the techwear examples applys correctly as each of those vtubers are tech related. Even Ayame nakiri, with that being a different outfit than her original, but shes always shown with tech and gaming related visuals. Or the literal cyborg, who appropriately wears techwear. If you actually look up vtubers, then you see there are not a lot of tech outfit, it's only applied when it makes sense. The under-detailing part examples are old vtubers who's whole character is literally 'school girl/boy' or 'office dude', so their original outfit being that makes sense, and design being minimal applied to a lot of old vtubers before they upgraded. I've personally have not seen under-detailing at all with most vtubers. Genshin isn't the reason for their designs either, as the timeline doesn't match up and the fact that there are multiple designs based on regions. Like mondstat has victorian design, liyue has chinese, inazuma is japan, etc. The Zongli example is exactly as you described, being formal, professional, warm personality, yet mysterious (and his outfit is his work clothes with hutao). So I'd argue his design worked well. To sum it up, I've rarely if not ever looked at a vtuber and thought, I'm confused because of their outfit (even without ever knowing who they are).
Vtubers face being simple does have to do with the fact that they are 'anime' so thats why they're designed as such. Over detailing face in anime form doesn't really work. There's a reason why anime doesn't do it as well simplicity works better. And as we know, simplicity doesn't mean that there will be less expressions. For instance, look at roberu from hololive, he has a unique detail shading design, but his face looks awkward in every scenario when he streams. As an asian person, the body proportions makes sense to me. Like kronii, I've seen women with long slender legs, thin stomach, but short arms, and big breast. Most don't but some do. I don't want to go too into this because I don't know how different it is for other types of people, but well, everyone is different anyways. Although there's definitely some vtubers with abnormal body proportions. If anything, it's great that these vtubers can create unrealistic proportionals, because they have the option to as a creative platform. The eyes, idk. Generally eyes look perfectly fine for me.
But yeah, this is all coming from someone who hasn't drawn any art in like 6 years so maybe my opinion isn't great. I'm just a guy who likes a lot of things so I have a general understanding of many things like vtubers, anime, and art.
This is absolutely amazing to learn as a self taught artist simply because when we learn these are the models that companies accept, we think the artists set the bar and should be learn from which can create a lot of dissonance with what should be considered as a good "reference". When these artists create models, they do it in a way so they facial expressions are visible and not distracted with overly detailed shading in the face to show the muscles because it would be harder to rig. But when you see their illustrations they have way much more detail in parts the model does not. This video itself its a gem in saying "don't think these models, while beautifully colored and rendered, are the end all be all in art. Even pros come across challenges and art styles create conflicting traits that are okay for you to question if you like that or think they can be improved." Thank you so much, teacher.
It's crazy how underdesigned and simple designs still tell a lot and can be memorable if done well!
Not everything needs to be photo-realistic. lol
jaiden animations, theodd1out, oversimplified, let me explain studios, something else yt, among MANY other youtubers are prime examples of this. dont know why OP feels such a necessity to dog on every little thing
Most of these criticism’s feel like personal grievances. 😭
The anatomy part of this video kinda irks me the wrong way. I agree with everything else but like I have small hands and feet with thicker thighs. Im also short and have shorter arms, but according to this video, my "anatomy is wrong." Which I think is just a bad take? Especially since majority of the examples you showed looked perfectly fine and could totally be how someone is IRL. I based my model off of my own body type, so does that make my model bad or wrong?
He clearly only knows generalizations and tries to preach that to other people.
for realll, and the part where she said the simple face shading doesn’t match with the other more complex detail (outfit, etc) doesn’t actually make sense 😭 i think its just the artist’s style to make simple face shading/it’s just the character design that doesn’t have that much details on their face. As long as the artists can make the whole drawing balance and looks good i think that’s all what matters
@@aloisiusrafael1779 Well, it's not artist specific tho. Most vtuber models if not all are made in anime style. So of course the design will follow that instead of western illustration styles.
Nah, ur cooked
Yeah I get waaaay too easily lost in the "gotta make sure this char isn't overly complicated" so my designs do tend to err on the side of caution a lot of the time. I luckily learned about contrast, so my char has a bit of that. Though possibly not too much. It's such a balancing act...
Thank you for the video, it's a lot of help! ^^
On the anatomy stuff. I think they are following the asian beauty standard trope of longer legs. I think the arms are long enough, but they wear their pants low (think aladdin) and follows the fashion trend. (Some however are weird. Like some of the Nijimodels seems... Broken...)
It's because the characters not meant to dress like real people but to fit into their lore/backstory (which is always some made up short story).
girl lets talk about your model....
I love it. Leave her alone
@@LydiaPidea thats your opinion . dont have to force it on me .
@@LydiaPideait's bad
@@LydiaPidea it’s worse than all the models shown in the video. we dont have to “leave her alone” when she’s the one doing it first to all these amazing artists
NO WAY YOUR HAIR IS AN INKY CAP MUSHROOM THAT IS SOOO COOL
No hate but like even though you went to art school, I did as well (art history major) I feel like many of your points are quite literally yap central, and your design goes against many of your points. Coming from an artist of many years in practice and schooling, I hate to say but your model is really just plainly not good. The fact that you talk about these other models that are very well done in such a negative way is baffling, because none of your points really have a valid point other than showing the characters personality…. I don’t usually comment hate like this but it’s kind of interesting how you have so much to say about these other models when yours is worse than 90% of them. Again, not from a hateful perspective but an artists.
"yap central" lol im stealing this
@@emerson6954 no i didn’t miss it. and even with the picture she showed of her next model, i still feel the same. just bc she states (like only twice) that she knows her model goes against what she’s saying doesn’t make it ok. it’s so weird to talk about other models the way she did while hers is like that. once she levels up her model and its design she can critique others
@@emerson6954 see the difference between me and her though is that i don’t have a model. if i had a model that was poorly designed like hers, i would not say a word about other people’s models. making a video based off of your pet peeves of other people’s designs when yours is outrageous is kind of weird. and you say she should’ve waited for her next model but again it’s not even only her model but the design of her character. but to each their own
@@emerson6954 i know that her design is a ink cap. it’s the colors, the tech wear, the proportions, the finger nails, the spots, etc it’s just not a good design. and there you go!!!!! if you think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and pet peeves, let me have mine. if your logic is correct then i’m also allowed to have my opinion and i’m entitled to critique hers just as she is to others.
@@emerson6954It's a bad design and OP is a hypocrite. That's all there is to it.
I have my pet peeves with your pet peeves
3:55 some of the comments already explained the software limitations of giving more details to the face like lag and having to do more work and costing more
5:26 fair enough
8:15 you lack a bit of info in this regard, agency vtubers are "assigned" a model they don't get to choose
so this "clothes doesn't reflect their personality" is true because they don't have a say in it, it's only after they get a redesign or an alt costume that they get to stylize it more
9:50 I'll take the techwear, it's not bad just not my vibe
10:15 you get alts either way as agency vtuber, and I don't see most vtubers turning all of their costumes into plushies
10:40 again, some of those examples the vtubers were "assigned" a model
"The arms are too short!"
Then there's me
who has hands that only reach the bottom of my hips
The diagram at 1:45 is wrong. Quite wrong, the arms are too low and the crotch is too high. Even if someone does have that kind of structure, it shouldn't ever be used as a standard to guide people, since it would be rather uncommon.
thank you so much for including my design at 9:45! i totally got jumpscared when i saw him pop up but i'm really happy that you like it! i hope that one day i can get a full critique from you so i can get him to the best version of himself he can be :D (but i know you've got a huge pile of submissions to go through so i totally get it if ya can't!)
The design looks super cool! I absolutely loved it
@@denjidenji9162 thank you so much!
one thing I learned from design from several people, including a professor at my college and several talks from professionals, not exactly in Vtuber design but design in general(can't draw, soo I'm more graphic design), good/appealing design shouldn't be everywhere, bland and plain design should serve as backdrop for the focus, aka create negative space. 4:13Shiori is an example, that undetailed face is actually a backdrop so her hyperdetailed and uncanny eyes can be a the focus(yes, face is a negative space, well, for the eyes and mouth). 11:57 the monochrome look is also likely an attempt to focus on the eye, but Mococo and Fuwawa did it better than Victoria with a more contrasting color for the eye and not having the blue lace as a distraction
Zhonglis design is actually pretty cool. I'm not going into detail but the gold scale details on his suit hinting at his true nature is super cool. There are worse outfits like kokomi or kuki or tighnari
are people not allowed to have thick thighs with small feet and hands? 😭
Thank you so much for these awesome videos! they've helped me so much with character design, and it feels so satisfying having that come together with theming and writing. It really feels like I have a stronger image and plan now than I did two years ago, and it's because of this.
Friendly suggestion. Wouldn't lead off with credentials, background, etc. Slide it in as you progress, not use it as an opener. Made a nasty immediate impression, but watching more of the video I appreciated more your upbeat energy. Your intro, just felt "here's my background, here's why I'm important and you need to listen to me," felt highly aggressive opposed to the fun vibe from everything else.
Putting aside my personal tastes, good energy and easy to watch information. Thanks for the vid.
The worse part is that she was rathe wrong about the arm anatomy part. Saying she has credentials will make people repeat her mistake..
The great thing about this video is how I am learning so much from the comments as an artist that is just starting out
I’m absolutely blown away with how you’re able to give us all this information in just a single video!! Straight to the point and incredibly valuable!! Thank you for inspiring my own design 💕💕
Ah thank you! Lesson planning has definitely helped me learn to pare down information into the necessary chunks for presentation, so I'm thrilled that my practice at it's paying off! I'm happy I could inspire you too!
another squiji video!! lets go!!! i love your videos on designs and concepts.
Proportions are different based on genetics so like… also it’s just a model made for fun and entertainment? Like one is literally the grim reaper but you have a problem with the arm length?!? It’s not meant to be always 100% accurate but we don’t care because we love them for them. Kinda an L take ngl…
babe wake up new squiiji character design video just dropped
I LOOOVE all character design vids on UA-cam but I especially love your videos about how to design a VTuber! Very inspiring for someone working on their own character designs in the field. great points !! :-)
Aww thank you!! I'm so happy I can be helpful with it, good luck on your designing!
I'm 21 seconds in at the time of writing this... you don't need credentials to critique art. For that you simply need Taste.
Thank you so much for the master class Iiji. I look up to your teaching skills and character design knowledge. I do feel like I am better equipped as a VTuber character designer now!
Thank you!! 🧡 The way I could verbatim say the same to you too though Yam!! We'll keep teaching eachother new things, woo teamwork!
I love your vtuber design! It’s really creative
That little preview you gave of your 2.0 model looks so CUTE! I'm looking forward to it.
Oh my GOD, the vox model... I KNEW something was wrong but I couldn't tell why I didn't like it 😭😭
They stole my man's collarbones!
@squiijivt got him walking out there looking like NO NECK ED 😭😭
I want long flowy hair. I don't care if the silhouette is generic!!
Seriously though, do you have any suggestions for creating a fun silhouette while maintaining the long flowy hair?
Both the video and the comments are informative. I learn a lot of not only character design but also some rigging and company choices
Love to hear these points. I'm not much of an artist, even when looking to comission i've struggled with what i'm trying to communicate. This really helps me think on what i want for a design, and what i should critique if i get drafts
Your videos really helped my in this short time knowing you! I found your channel a couple days ago and I just need to say, thank you :D Keep it going, you have my subscription!
Wooo! I'm glad I could help, thank you! 🧡
yeeeees a new squiiji upload I am heeeeere for all the pet peeves, your videos are always such a great refresher for chara design!
Anatomy rules should be followed when making hyperrealistic art but this is stylized so the rules can absolutely be bent if it still looks good. Idk all of this kinda feels a little too "I just graduated from art school and now I'm going to gatekeep and act like a professor". And idk kinda also feels weird to have so many critiques of other vtubers when your own design has a lot of issues too. It's giving pickme behavior.
As someone who's been planning to become an indie VTuber this video helped out a LOT, thank you so much Squiiji.
Honestly this also helped me out as an artist as well! I look forward to seeing your future videos. (:
not just making any vtuber models, just character design as a standalone, these tips are great. i’m in the process of drawing up some original characters and this gave me some valuable feedback ❤❤
And thus why most vtubers have secondary outfits that matches their personality better.
Wow you're gonna sit there with your blocky hands and giant head, eyes and ears and criticize body portions?????? Like??? What you're saying is not even correct, people do not all have the same proportions for things like arm length or calf length and if you scroll you can find many comments attesting to this. People who look at their bodies because of this video and go 'oh shit never realized my arms where wrong LOL' are you kidding me???? To people who've said this: your body is not wrong for looking the way you do, your arms stop at where they should if it's not causing you pain or problems then your body is this naturally that way. We don't all look the same, and we don't all have the same proportions, please don't let yourself be told otherwise. To Squiiji you're presenting a very harmful narrative and I think you should widen your scope of the world before commenting on what a persons 'possible' looks 'should be'.
thank you I saw this on Twitter and was shocked because her design makes me feel physically ill. Like maybe that's what she's going for like a dumpster goblin or something with those toes for hands and greasy hair. if not..this is such an embarrassing look for her to criticize while looking like that.
i find it funny how she said "my art is stylized" but then says how other stylized art isn't realistic??
exactly @@ehyzen
I'm so glad I was recommended your video/channel. As a plain/casual v-tuber viewer (honestly I barely just watch shorts/highlights that come up) and not at all involved in related design/creation, the way you present information is still so interesting to me.
You speak and educate without being condescending or utilizing hard rules. I also like how you explain current trends in the v-tubing community. The way you present information makes me want to apply the rules you discuss! I hope you gain more viewers! 🥰
This is the first video of yours that I've seen, and I love the take. You explained the feelings well in such a respectful and constructive way. I love this! 🤎
Fascinating advice all around honestly! And yeah, I agree with others that it can be applied to a ton of stuff rather than just vtuber designs.