How Elites won the Battle of the Ark (and ended the War) | Halo Battle Breakdown
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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How did the Elites defeat the Brutes at the Battle of the Ark in Halo 3? We'll discuss that and more on today's Halo Lore video!
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#AskEck
*Attempt 617*
Do the Forerunners vs Imperium of Man Pre-Horus Heresy.
(Halo vs Warhammer).
awesome video.
I believe that the elites won by tactics and determination.
During the second world war Japanese soldiers fighting China we're outnumbered 7 to 1 and beat the Chinese back. Numbers do play a role in war. But mostly it comes down to who has the better tactics.
Also could the Terran Dominion survive a Flood infection.
Here are some vs ideas
Borg Cube vs Unsc Inifity
Ridley (metroid) vs General Grievous
3 Striders (half life) vs Type-47A (halo)
AAT-1 vs Type-47B Scarab vs AT TE
Bought your noodz. Interested in trying them out. Plus getting you some money is always cool
EckhartsLadder that's was the U.S fleet did at midway
"Shipmaster, they out number us 3-to-1!"
"Then it is an even fight."
That line is what made my balls drop.
Made the brutes balls drop too
And for the flood to shrivel up and die right on the spot
Lmao
My favorite was from halo 2 “This is fleet admiral Harper, we are engaging the enemy” courageous that those guys would immediately attack with everything they got on enemies that JUST slipspaced into the system that quick.
"All ships, fire at will!"
"Burn their mongrel hides!"
That ramen kinda comes outta nowhere lol
And it made me fuckin hungry... 😂😂😂😂
Need to make money even though he is a lawyer.
@@TheConqueror009 ?
He is a lawyer for a profession as is his wife I believe. And makes plenty of money. He has no need for monetization but brings in much cash flow from this side hobby probably comparative to his lawyer salary now he is much more highly publicized versus 2 years ago.
@@TheConqueror009 Oh I didn't know, thanks for the info.
Eck: “could a smaller army 1/3 the size of its opponent actually win?”
Me: "Sit Down. Let me tell you a great story. There was this Forerunner A.I. named Offensive Bias. Outnumbered 436.6:1. 8 hours later. Offensive Bias is victorious."
Ekaf Eman better yet, he dodged, and wasted time for 7 hours 57 minutes, intentionality losing more than half his fleet. Then won in three minutes flat.
On a smaller battle scale but just as good: Crossbone Gundam and the Steel 7 incident where 7 mobile suits( F91, F90 intercept, Vigna Ghina 2, X-1 Full Cloth, Angel Diona and 2 salvaged Jupiter MS) fought Jupiter Empire's army 100 to 1 odds and to stop a large colony laser from blasting earth and scorching the planet.
Ekaf Eman Ouch.
@@chrissonofpear1384 Take into play the human elite alliance, along with the fact that, in the lore, the elites and humans had the lekgolo on their side, they're the ones who had lekgolo based scarabs, hunters, and grunts, for the ground fight, and they not only had more experience and adaptability, but if you take into account the fact that they have human allies, that if were considered as the same faction, would also cause them to outnumber the brutes, since the UNSC fights in large numbers, with hit and run tactics, that's bad for the brutes, it's obvious why the elites and humans won.
Ekaf Eman now I have to reread that series for the finer details.
Elites: "call an ambulence"
*-but not for me*
Comment blew up🙂
Reminds me of this quote:
"They've got us surrounded again, the poor bastards." -Col. Creighton S. Abrams
and
"All right. They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us ... They can't get away this time." -Lt. Gen. Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
@@The_JEB I've always enjoyed US Gen. Anthony McAuliffe's quote, "Men, we are surrounded by the enemy. That means we have the greatest opportunity ever presented to an army. We can attack in any direction we choose."
-circa Dec. 1944 to Jan 1945, Battle of the Bulge, WW2
"So they've got us surrounded, Good! Now we can fire in every direction!" - Chesty Puller
> Leaf
I like this chain 😁
There's also the fact that when the elites handed over ships to the brutes, many had their weapons and other systems sabotaged, many of which were more than likely still a problem during the battle
I like to think that in a way, this quote is also a small nod to the Elites respect for the humans. UNSC could typically win with a 3-1 numerical advantage in space. Shipmaster Rtas sees this large mass of Brute-controlled covenant carriers and battleships and thinks "Yeah, that's about as threatening as a Human-Fleet".
Isn't the point of UNSC having more ships an attempt to make up for technological differences between them and covenant ships?
@古明地恋 the UNSC never had the numerical advantage. They had less ships and smaller ships. They were technically inferior to the covenant forces.
@@古明地恋-s9cif they enter a battle they have to have a significant numerical advantage to "win" the battle, they will suffer heavy losses but they also don't have the ships to spare for continuous use of this tactic
@@Moltenrokk the UNSC did have numerical superiority early on in the war. Notable examples:
Retaking of Harvest in 2526 where the UNSC outnumbered the covenant "fleet" 40 to 1.
First battle of Arcadia in 2531 where the UNSC 'enjoyed a 2 to 1 advantage.
Battle of Charybis IX in 2535 where UNSC had slight advantage in numbers (4 UNSC and 2 INS warships against 5 Covenant vessels)
And ofcourse the initial phase of the battle of Earth 2552, where the Home fleet outnumbered Regret's fleet 3 to 1.
Unconfirmed (but heavily suggested) battles where the UNSC enjoyed some form of numerical superiority in space.
Battle of Jericho, 2532
Battle of Miridem, 2544
Battle of Paris IV, 2549
One massive misconception is that the covenant would've won the war automatically had it not been for the chief. In reality, the covenant became very close to implosion due to their war with humanity.
To start with, the prophets were scared shitless once they realized the UNSC was no walkover and that a prolonged war would (rightfully) destroy the covenant as a whole (which it did).
To begin with, the prophets declared war on humanity on false accusations, stating that humanity were actively hunting down and destroying holy relics. This lie obscured 2 truths.
The truth about why covenant luminaries consistently detected forerunner relics on human worlds: In reality, the humans WERE the relics in the eyes of these luminaries.
The truth about why humanity was the only species in the covenant not eventually sworn into it's order. Because they WERE forerunner (or successors) and the whole purpose of the covenant was a lie.
The prophets feared that the other species would eventually figure out the truth about humanity and their purpose in the galaxy. In fact, the elites (who had been pushing for humanity to gain an equal seat within the covenant due to their resillience) were already suspicious about the prophet's for more than a decade prior to the fall of reach because of the prophet's unwillingness to make peace with humanity. They began their own, secret investigations, investigations that were discovered early on by truth (and the reason why he began to groom the brutes as the elite's successors). These elites, while sabotaged every step of the way by the prophets, were extremely close to figuring out the truth after Vadam provided the Elite high council crucial intel in regards to how easy humans were able to interact directly with forerunner systems on installation 4. An ability the covenant as a whole wasn't able to (only the prophet's seemed to posses enough skill to access forerunner systems, and this was mostly due to using human prisoners to do it for them). This knowledge was kept from the elites for decades and when they figured this out, preparations were made to leave the covenant. This plot was discovered by Truth, who quickly arranged the elites to be removed from their guard duty (as many of those guards had close ties to the elite council and was afraid they would turn on them), calling of regret's rescue party and using his death as legal cause to do so. The final nail in the coffin was driven in earlier by Sesa 'Refumee, the heretic leader who discovered 343 GS after the ring's destruction. He broadcasted the truth throughout the entire covenant network. All events combined pushed truth to initiate the great schism early.
I say early, because the chief & co threw a massive wrench into truth's plans by destroying the Unyielding Hierophant, the massive station harboring almost 4 full fleets of trained brutes captains, tasked on taking out earth. Truth's original plan was to secretely take out the homeworld of Earth and crippling the UNSC for good using the brute-led fleets. Then, with Humanity no longer a viable threat. Truth would only then initiate the great purge by sending these brute fleets over elite systems, destroying their planets and basicly commit genocide on the elite race while they were caught off-guard. Instead, the chief blows up the station and Whitcomb destroyed what remained of the 500 strong fleet in an heroic self-sacrifice. Leaving truth with very little options and time to adjust.
Humanity may have won through sheer luck and coincidence. But if you think about it, Humanity's contingency plan (to basically become nomads in space) would've always worked. As truth's schemes, lies and deception would have backfired as he could never cleanly destroy the elites. This was proven during the events of Halo 2 and 3. With the elites quickly gaining the upper hand after the initial shock.
Fun facts
* The reason why the arbiter was ousted from the covenant was because he unintentionally (and without him even realizing) discovered the truth about humanity. He had observed first hand how Humanity was able to interact with Halo with such ease. When he reported this to the prophets, they turned pale from shock. As this came from one of the second most respected fleet master in the covenant navy. The prophets feared if he realized the implications of his discovery, his high status within the covenant navy would've swayed already sceptical races to split from the covenant. The prophets hastily arrested him on grounds of the destruction of Halo and arranged for his death shortly after his branding, but Sesa's rebellious broadcast basically saved him from certain death as the prophets desperately needed a new arbiter/useful idiot. Which they found with Vadamee.
*The prophets had a pattern in disposing keen-eyed elites who got (too close) to finding out the truth about humanity. The previous Arbiter (the one in HW1) actually discovered the truth about humanity and the lies the prophets spewed. The prophets instead threatened to wipe out the arbiter's entire family and clan had he revealed that information and framed him into the role of aribiter as killing him would've caused suspicion. The prophets also forced Wantinree, the single most influential and loved shipmaster in the covenant hierarchy at the time to defend a meaningless bit of space far away from the covenant.For reason that he became very sceptical of the prophets and wished to reform the covenant without them.
* The cole protocol was EXTREMELY effective up until the fall of reach. To the point of frustrating not just the prophets, but the elites aswel. One of which was recorded saying this; "We do not know where their homeworld is. Their pattern of retreat is either hopelessly random, or brilliantly conceived."
The only reason why human systems were discovered time and time again was due to covenant luminaries revealing forerunner artifacts (AKA humanity itself) in systems. Case and point was Regret's fleet towards Earth, as regret found out about the planet through a luminary who revealed a hotspot of artifacts on the planet but didn't know it was the mass concentration of humans. This also explains why covenant fleets mentioned in above battles were small enough to be outnumbered by the UNSC. Because these were in all likelyhood not invasion fleets but reliquary fleets, in search of artifacts. (It's why in halo wars, only 2 covenant ships invaded Arcadia and quickly bugged out after they found the intel they needed).
@@rydekk-4644 holy fuck man my respect man, you are a true halo fan, I didn't know a lot of this despite constantly consuming halo lore
A small force can absolutely destroy a force three times its size. It has happened over and over in real life. Sometimes the attacking force is up to five times the size. This battle is actually pretty believable from a tactical standpoint.
Indeed. Genius generals such as Hannibal managed to defeat/wipe out several enemy armies with his one army!
It was Napoleon's MO until it stopped working for him
As well as sweden in the great northern wars, i believe. So many battles won out numbered!! Even when they assulted a fortfied star fort!!!!
Operation Barbarossa comes to mind. The invasion went well at first, but due to poor planning, winter setting in a issues with equipment not being ready for it, it fell flat.
"Shipmaster, they outnumber us 3-to-1!"
"Then it is an even fight. All cruisers fire at will! Burn their mongrel hides!"
@The Four Horsemen they prolyl have hives
There's too many of these comments and they get too many likes
@@amazoncouch7116 I know. I forgot I made this comment and it now has 103 likes.
Still one of the best lines ever spoken for motivation.
A smaller fleet of ships defeating a larger fleet makes complete sense. Korean admiral Yi Sun-Shin was outnumbered in every encounter and he destroyed the Japanese. The funny thing is too is that he had no prior naval training.
I still feel that dude was straight up too OP for the Imjin Wars.
the_ corvid probably
Wait what??
I remember reading about that he won a navel fight where he was out numbered like 10:1 and came out victorious and only minor damage to his forces, im mean hell he had trained his men so well that when he was killed during a battle he ordered that some keep hitting his war drums and not announce his death until after the battle had been won only sad thing is he was only fighting at a 4:1 disadvantage when he was killed
Yeah, it's the 300 Spartans scenario, but in a naval battle. Terrain makes all the difference with these things.
Elite: “Shipmaster! They outnumber us three to one!”
Rtas: “Oh-no!”
Also Rtas: “Anyways...”
Halo gear
“… I started my taxes early this year, this schism has made getting w-2 a train wreck though honestly”
“Oh no, the poor bastards, they don’t have enough”
As a space smuggler once said, “never tell me the odds.”
Who
Han solo?
When Shipmaster said that line, it gave me goosebumps. The Halo 3 campaign is unforgettable to me, they don't make campaigns like that anymore.
It's a true masterpiece of a game.
"They don't make campaigns like that anymore."
Let me introduce you to this GEM called titanfall 2.
Hello there
@@oomguy9423 Yep. Pure win.
Word, I got goosebumps watching that scene too
@@oomguy9423 Bloodborne
In my experience the best ways to take on a much larger enemy breaks down into two categories, either playing hard to get, and whittling them down while waiting for an opportunity, or the second option: charge right in and try to rely on shock and awe to produce a disproportionate effect on the enemy.
The former case is better against skilled opponents, and the latter case is for inferior opponents. IMHO the Elites made the right call... although obviously this is after the battle generalmanship.
A year late, I know, but the whole "Shock and Awe" tactic worked to great effect in WW2, with a Canadian soldier named Leo Major, who liberated a town all by himself, by quite literally making as much noise and causing much confusion as possible in the middle of the night. Go check his story out, it's fantastic.
Napoleon had a good strategy for taking on larger armies. Even though he had a smaller army, he would break it up and spread it out. This would cause the enemy to break up theirs and send them after napoleons smaller divisions individually. He would then beat the smaller segments one at a time, each one he defeated, he would take his remaining forces and use them to reneforce another division to defeat another section of the enemy army.
It's kinda hard to explain but basically the idea was to break one big battle up into a series of smaller battles, and each time he defeated one enemy segment, it would raise his own numbers when fighting other segments. He may have been outnumbered in the battle as a whole, but was able to make it so he would outnumber his enemy in smaller, isolated schrimishes by luering enemy regiments away from their main army body.
Eck: “could a smaller army 1/3 the size of its opponent actually win?”
Me: laughs in Taffy 3
Odds? What are those?
My thought exactly XD
Me: Laughs in Battle of Midway
Indeed. Battle off Samar is a good historical example of a Fleet Engagement against a more powerful enemy. I could see Shadow of Intent’s Fleet using hit and run tactics, launching salvos to break up the Brute ranks. Flying extremely close to encourage enemy fratricide.
The Brutes were just lucky the USS JOHNSTON wasn’t there
Randy Orton's offensive RKO vs Obi-Wan's defensive Highground.
@Tyrell Suraiya So true.
The rko would come from even higher ground
@@ZeroTwo-- That's what I'm afraid of.
Unstoppable force against an unmovable object.
He'd just slither right up that high ground
The "then it is an even fight" line has such raw energy
During the sea battle of Myeongnyang the Korean admiral Yi won with a dozen ships against more than 300 Japanese vessels . Knowing the battlefield, knowing your own ships capabilities, knowing the enemy ships capabilities and having the more skilled crew can drastically turn a battle in your favour even when the numerical odds are stacked against you.
Playing Halo online
Friend: There is 6 of them
Me: Then it is an even fight
Enemies: Destroy me and my friend like a boss
Lmfao. I've totally had those moments
When shipmaster said it was an even fight, he really undersold it. Keyes disengages and parks the frigate halfway through the fight, and by the time MC blows up that scarab, he's already in atmosphere says that it's a wrap and to find truth. Dude packed up a 3 to 1 in less than half a day.
Wow, I can actually relate to Eck for once.
*Halo 3 baybehhhh!*
Eck is pretty a good UA-camr for anything Sci-fi.
Real reason: Me like elites not brutes, brutes stinky bad bad.
I want Halo 2 or 3 Elites in Halo 6 (Infinite)
Me stay here, make sure no brutes come behind mighty Arbiter.
@@deVeresd.Kfz.1515 Except when they were stabbing civilians with swords and glassing cities (burning men, women, and children (babies too) alive).
The elites and humans were a team up of legendary proportions
I love this breakdown, but an alternative to R'tas charging his fleet down the middle might have been to accelerate toward the very end of the brute line, forcing brute ships to shoot around eachother to attack, the brutes might have hurled their smaller more maneuverable ships at the elites right into the broadside of the elite formation.
After that R'tas might have turned his wolfpacks to charge down the line like cavalry, coordinating fire at one ship after another while the brutes were still trying to shoot around eachother.
I love being in space battle type games and it's always true that whoever wins the flank can control the battle
"Even the smallest knife in hands skilled with a blade can overcome a longsword in the hands of a novice" - me rn drinking coffee on my couch at 1am but seriously experience is everything in this kind of fight the elites had the advantage the brutes just didnt know it yet
"Can, could, may...." Let's be real, 99% of the time the guy with the bigger sword wins
Okay, #AskEck
If humans weren't the reclaimers and were declared worthy to join the Covenant, what role do you think we would occupy?
My bet is on pilots, fighter pilots the Elites are not particularly good at being.
Maybe but we could also serve alongside the elites in some aspect. Remember humanity was able to push the covenant back or hold the ground in almost every ground based conflict. Humanity could also serve on a science basis as well humanity might not have been able to match the covenant technologically but we did have better AI and managed to genetically enhance our soldiers
I belive the reason why the covenant didn't have any "smart" ai is because they knew about the flood to a certain extent, which included knowledge of the logic plague, and what it does to ais
@@Dr.Pootis that is partially true, but also because the Covenant fails to innovate and invent. All they do is copy and reverse engineer Forerunner technology. So along with what you've said, the Covenant AI just sucked haha
@Dr. Pootis the reason the covenant didn’t have smart AI is solely due to them knowing that the forerunners has been betrayed by one. They did not understand the circumstances, nor anything else.
My opinion is that that humanity would have started at the bottom rung of Covenant society as the new converts. However, as achievements start to add up, I think that humanity would have quickly earned the respect to be considered equals to the Elites. This is because of all the races, humans are most similar to the Elites. However, the question remains if this would have been tenable in the long term. Would the Elites have accepted humanity as their equals or would there have been a rivalry between the 2? I personally don't know. Both scenarios are equally plausible.
With the line of how the brutes were too aggressive with their smaller ships... I suspect the battle may have gone the other way around in terms of target prioritization, actually. The smaller ships do not have the shield capacity to stand up to a sustained assault, so in covenant vs covenant battles the go-to tactic is likely to have the smaller vessels attack for a bit, picking off retreating enemies with their speed and taking the heat off allies, then duck behind a bigger ally to regenerate shielding before they are picked off in turn.
Using one's small ships too aggressively would allow their shielding to run out, causing them to be lost prematurely. That leaves the brutes with just their bigger ships against the sangheili who still have a lot of their escort craft. Without those smaller craft the brutes' firepower and, more critically, ability to pursue retreating enemies is drastically reduced, allowing the sangheili to cycle their ships in and out of the fray whilst offering the remaining brute ships no breathing room of their own.
I imagine the interior of the brute ships was just a lot of angry apes running about and occasionally hitting the laser buttons by accident.
Frantically asking the grunts and jackals what to do.
This battle is the epitome of
“Call and ambulance, call an ambulance!
*but not for me”*
The brutes were also equipped with less powerful ships than the elites usually decommissioned ships that the prophets snuck away to give to a crew of brutes overseen by a prelate shipmaster. Those ships were then armed and the crew trained by the prelates. Nearly every brute ship was commanded by a prelate which is like the spartan equivalent of a San shyum. If you read halo fractures one of the short stories refers to the half jaw’s (rtas vaduum) battle with the final remaining prelate and his crew. The prelate uses a solar wind storm to make the half jaws plamsa weaponry deform before it impacts the prelate and he is able to board the shadow of intent as his inferior ship doesn’t stand a chance in one on one against the shadow of intent. The story also has flashbacks to the naval battle at high charity after the great schism and details the Wolfpack tactics the prelates used against the superior elite ships. Its a good read if you’ve got the time
Shipmaster: Reinforcements will be needed
Brutes: You're a big guy!
Shipmaster: For you!
Elites: "They outnumber us, 3 to 1!"
WW2 RAF: "Hold my tea..."
"They outnumber us 3 to 1!"
*laughs in Battle of Agincourt*
The best ad reads are these ones. Where you do actually enjoy the food and the company clearly cares (particularly about you which is nice)
12:20 yes eck so many of history’s battles were fought in similar scenarios. Now would a force 1/3 the size of their adversaries come out virtually unscathed? No. A good 60-70% of the shipmasters forces wouldve been eviscerated
Actually there have been a few instances where naval forces have fought 3 to 1 and they came out nearly unscathed
"Halo 3 is (in my incredibly biased opinion) the greatest video game of all time."
I don't see any bias. Just hard facts.
Halo 2: confused Pikachu
*Laughs in Jian*
Bconroy328
Halo 2 had a lot cut from the game
Bias?
That’s Offensive!
Also Mendicant.
Heh heh.
@@spartangoku7610 hahaha I was waiting for someone to make a joke like this.😂
There are a couple of Short Stories (Evolutions and otherwise) that show how the Elites managed to fight the Brute Fleet AND the Flood-infected ship At The Same Time. It was only due to the Two-fronted nature of the Opening Space Battle of the Great Schism that allowed the Flood Ship to get through. This is even Stated in one of the Short Stories.
Eck: "Could a smaller army 1/3 the size of its opponent actually win?"
Me: laughs in Space Battleship Yamato
Captain Gloval would like to have a word.
I think that is the most honest Sponsorship Ad I've ever seen. I'll have to tell people about ViteRamen simply because you sold it on what you actually thought.
I love how R’tas is such a great shipmaster that he is known for that, and not that he is the greatest living blademaster.
Me: *Laughs in Somorsierra* Where a single polish cavalry regiment charged three Spanish defensive lines. WITHOUT STOPPING! 🤣🤣🤣
"I do it for the money" haven't there been wiser words.
It’s because they had Rtas ‘Vadum. He is THE most badass Elite to ever exist. Arbiter be a close second.
BRUTES STRONG, BRUTES SMASH!
Halo 3 is my favorite Halo game and I'm so happy it's backwards compatible for Xbox One, as I've been deep diving into Halo recently after a few years of a Star Wars binge and I needed that sweet, sweet nostalgia of silencing the voice of the Covenant and burning their mongrel hides. I mean of course I've played CE, 2, 3, ODST, Reach, 4, and even 5, but Halo 3 was my first ever Halo game and will always have a special place in my heart, not limited just to its campaign, but the multiplayer as well. My favorite bonding moments and custom matches have been on Halo 3.
Wort wort wort to all of you and I pray that 2020 is better for you all.
In First Strike as well (I think) there’s a space battle scene between Elites and Brutes and the Elite shipmaster notes that the Brute ships tend to work in pairs, quickly switching positions to cover each other if one’s shields go down. So getting in the thick of their formation would also nullify that tactic by having attackers in any direction you care to come from. Overload both ships’ shields and they can’t block for each other.
After more than a decade, I just now noticed one of the ODSTs have the character "chaos" (混) on his armor. Legit!
If you form a short line formation with heavy flag ship in front and two to three small cruisers in each row ( ====> ) piercings enemy lines with high speed, the heavy ship will take the damage and at the same time weaken enemy shiled and maybe ramming to clear the path. The following small cruisers can finish them off, if the first cruisers cannot, the following cruisers can finish the job. This works only when the enemy ships cannot form a battle formation and they just try to circle the small number of elite ships. Which is this case. This can be done without a issue. It was done during the operation sand storm, and during the naval ship battle between Chosun and Japan.
I can also Imagine brutes accidentally firing weapons while their Shields are still up and the weapons impacting their own Shields either bouncing off the Striking their own Hall or dissipating harmlessly now there is a funny image
If we ever get a Halo 3 remastered it would be cool to see the space battle more and while you are on the ground you are able to look up and zoom with a scoped weapon preferably a sniper rifle and see the battle happen, I’d also like to add being able to see throughout the mission ships crashing on the surface of the ark like Jakku in Star Wars it would be epic to see a Covenant a Carrier or cruiser crash in the distance along with pieces of said ships.
A forward charge to get themselves surrounded on all sides may not have been the tactic they used. While its true brute ships would take friendly fire, getting hit from all angles is gonna hurt, skillful shield management or not. I think they started with a feint to get the brutes into their initial frenzy, then pulled back and used bait and punish tactics trying to take on the brute ships a chunk at a time using their entire fleet with better organization. The elites most likely focused fire on any battleclustor they could seperate from the main fleet by using decoys or provocation tactics, and chipped away at the brutes superior numbers and firepower in bite sized chunks, giving time for shields to recharge before the next engagement.
I’m imagining this battle playing out like a Legend of the Galactic Heroes space battle. If you’ve never heard of it, it honestly has the coolest and most realistic space battles I’ve ever seen
I think one explanation would be the lack of surprise and leadership by the Brutes. In _Shadow of Intent_ it is mentioned that during the Battle of High Charity, the Elite fleet was outnumbered but upper gunned. It's possible that the Prelates of the San'shyuum were the centerpiece of Brute naval engagement, as they trained and lead Brute with older and inferior ships that nearly broke the Elites' superior naval fleet with swift betrayal.
But at the Battle of the Ark, the Prelates were all wiped out and the Brutes no longer had the element of surprise and experience by the Prelates.
Crew: "Commander, we're outnumbered 3-1"
Rtas: "aaaaaaah, wuurbuhduhg!"
Love how you included the little unsc frigate
Being outnumbered by nearly 3 to 1 is definitely possible to overcome in combat. A good real world example would be Rommel’s victory in the battle of Gazala where he went against just under 1500 allied tanks with only 500 which resulted in the destruction or capture of nearly 1200 allied tanks.
We see in Halo the fall of reach, the book, that a single (heavy) MAC round can gut a covenant ship if it is unshielded, so it is very possible that they will use the anti-shield covenant energy weapons to their great effect in bringing down shields on the big ships, and then using a single MAC round at a critical point to destroy it in one fell swoop. Although it would require coordination, trust, and positioning, it was accomplished by admiral Cole when he set up his defense against a covenant fleet (incidentally outnumbering his opponents 3-1). In that fight, I believe it was stated that it took two MAC rounds to down the shield of most covenant ships, and then a third round would punch through the ship completely. Now take the covenant weapons, which are energy-based and much more suited to taking on energy shields, and much less suited to punching through armor so quickly (of course it is good, but in the area of rapid armor penetration, the mac round is the superior, if less controllable, projectile as it doesn't have to melt it's way through everything, or worry about the thermodynamics of the covenant's armor). So as far as the big ships go, if the schematics of them were given to the UNSC (or mapped in one of the many missions aboard), then it would be a simple matter to pinpoint weak points and exploit them once the elites took down the shields in even a small segment. And for any arguments against the speed of the two projectiles, we see that a MAC round is accelerated to an appreciable portion of the speed of light, and didn't slow significantly after impacting a ship (provided it hits the hull and not the shield), while we see that a covenant plasma projectile versus the halcyon-class-cruiser had difficulty melting through all the layers of armor as quickly (well, perhaps not difficulty, but it did take enough time for people to be having a frantic conversation about how screwed they were).
"Sure, it matters who's got the big stick, but it matters a hell of a lot more who's swinging it."
~Fleetmaster Sheppard, probably
The shipmaster knows the inside out of how the covenant formation work the man study his military history
I have to agree with your assessment that the battle was won due to the greater experience of elites.
Whilst in this battle the technology used by both sides was equal that was not always the case previously, during a large part of the war, brutes (which were not trusted by elites), were given less capable vessels without the most sophisticated technology. This meant they had less practice using these when they were in battle.
A couple of points about Covenant fleet tactics (from Ghosts of Onyx - the squeal to First Strike) Smaller ships would work in pairs so if a ship's shields go down it hides behind it's wingman until they recharge (giving double the shields). Also once a plasma torpedo has been launched it is guided, and maintains it's coherence using em pulses from the firing ship. A tactic used by both brutes and elites is to target incoming plasma to deflect/redirect it onto an enemy. When this happens in the book the elites show a better technical understanding and destroy the brute ships in short order.
Eck describing the inticrate details of covenant battle ships makes me want to see an entire game of just covenant battle ships duking it put that is almost like space combat meets TF2/ fighting games/ mmorpgs that is all about like frame data, managing shield and weapon cooldowns, coordinating attacks with teammates and exploiting small weaknesses to gain an edge
I think you hit the nail on the head with this. Positional advantage would definitely be considered, and as Elites (at least in the earlier HALO games and such) act as leaders of the fighting arm of the covenant, they would have more intimate knowledge of their ships strengths and weaknesses and would be able to gain strategical advantage through that.
I think the bad shielding management of the brutes was their doom, if the brutes are firing at a steady rate the elites can calculate when and where a section of the shield will drop and use it to destroy the hull avoiding the waste of damaging the shields, also elites can rotate the inner ships of the formation with the outer ships constantly so they can replentish shields with the ocasional focus fire agains the brute ship trying to ram (the brute fleet coud have several of them, designed with stronger hull, fast deploy shields and front engines to ram and retreat enemy ships).
More then believable, look to history.
I think it was Truths plan all along to use the fleet to buy time while he accessed the Halo array. When you think about it, thinking up an actual battle strategy is kinda pointless when all you need to do is find the “wipe out all sentient life in the galaxy and maybe become a God” button.
Yes, a smaller force by that much, literally or technically, can beat the larger force. While numerically overall it was a 2-1 advantage the Battle off Samar is an excellent example. 4 DDE, 3 DD, and 6 CVE with some 5 inch guns, some torpedoes on the DD/DDE's, and the CV's had planes but the carriers were equipped for ASW and lacked weapons to do real damage to Battleships. Speaking of which the force they opposed was 4 Battleships - Yamato and it's 18 inch guns, Nagato's 16 inch, and the 14 inch guns of 2 Kongo class fast BB's. Along with 6 cruisers with 8 inch guns, 2 with 6 inch guns and 11 DD's with 5 inch guns - and the D's and cruisers all having torpedoes.
Despite being outnumbered and heavily outgunned, tenacity, some tactics, and a ton of courage allowed a small ASW force to turn back the IJN center force with the worlds biggest and arguably most powerful battleship.
I recall something in the books where during this fight the point was made that the elites did have more knowledge and experience than the brutes, however it was also made known that the elites still had the same ships at this time as they had before the changing of the honor guard - meaning their ships had engineers to keep them in good repair and ready for a fight at any time, where as the brutes only had run down outdated models with basically no engineers to fix them.
Even though I watched with the audio muted I could still hear in my head
‘Brute ships, staggered lines. Shipmaster, they outnumber us three to one.’
“Then it is an even fight. All cruisers prepare to engage, burn their mongrel hides”
So thinking about how their shields work, the elites probably battered down the brutes' shields and the Dawn used its mac cannon to deliver the kill blow. They probably also concealed the smaller ship under the capital until the time was right to strike seeing as humanity doesn't have ship shielding like the covenant.
You heard it here first. Eckhart has always thought Installation00 was so cool! 😏
When Eckharts sayed that halo 3 was in his opinion the Best game of all time I was like so excited cause I think the same since I finished the game the first time.
Halo infinite.
Roland : Captain they outnumbered us 3 to 1.
Laskey : shit!!
Got wreck by the Brute.
Dont you just love that you feel you have powerful allies in halo 3 with a bone to pick with evil cruel and greedy brutes but in infinite you feel completely alone and have to help every single person?
I think it is possible considering how Mendicant Bias outnumbered Offensive Bias 2183:5 during their war, and Offensive Bias still come out on top
"Shipmaster they have us out numbered 3 to 1."
" O noooooo.anyways"
I like to think the comment "Gutted stem to stern" was just the Shipmaster excited to have MAC's on his side for once. Elites drop the shield, the UNSC Frigates let the MAC's loose.
the brutes had to focus fire on the elite capital ship and the battle would have been over really fast, other option was to close ranks to keep the capital ships protected whilst they were dealing damage and third thing was that brutes engaged a seasoned shipmaster in space combat considering they only know ground combat
I liked your tactical analysis of the space battle. Nicely done.
A Little late, but I had always imagined the change in the Elite's tactics and strategy was attributed( in part ) to Their religious zealotry being lifted. Like the fog burning off in a valley.
Subscribed after watching this and the video on the Infinity. Great content!
Battle of Myeongnyang (en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Myeongnyang ). It is definitely possible for a heavily outnumbered fleet to win with better tactics.
Dont forget that the brute ships are older version of the elites ships and many weapon systems are stripped. Yes the covenant could've add weapons but remember it wasnt long ago that the elites betray the covenant. So they possibly didnt really have time to outfit the brutes old ships
Quality can beat quantity, especially when force multipliers come into play. If elite ships are superior shot for shot, and they can maneuver themselves such that the bulk of the enemy can’t be firing, then yeah it’s textbook strategic superiority. What surprises me is that the brutes wouldn’t just swing for the obvious counter, which is an envelopement strategy. All the ships that can’t fire have to do is push forward and close behind the elites and now they’re being pounded from 3 if not 4 directions. I wonder if it was brute psychology that made them too singlemindedly focused on the direct assault, or if it was some kind of refusal to move too far from the Ark that made this possible. Either way, I assume the elite shipmaster knew he was safe from that maneuver one way or another.
Concerning fleet battle tactics, another tactic that could have been utilized by the elites wss rotating shields and ships. For the life of me, I can't remember which book it was in, but elite shipmasters during an engagement would cluster up into smaller packs, and as one ship would take damage to their shields, the others would get between them and whatever was shooting at them, giving them time to recharge their shields or see to any easily repairable damage to their systems unmolested. Being able to smoothly rotate out ships from the frontline of a battle would ensure a greater number stay active in the long run, greatly combating a numbers or size difference. Elites, especially Half-jaw and the veteran shipmasters in his fleet, are probably a lot more disciplined and battle experienced than the opposing brute fleet and would be much better able to pull it off
Cheers though, love your battle breakdowns
Seems to me the best way to use the Forward Unto Dawn would have been to finish off the enemy CAS Capitals. Have her charge her MAC and wait. The moment the Elites bring her shields down pop out and WHAM. Then scuttle back and hide where they were to avoid the unshielded hull being torpedoed. Seems that is likely what happened. At least the hiding part at least as the Dawn had no hull damage when she came down to deliver the Scorpions. There were not even small pock marks from Seraph guns so wherever she was she had great point defense. Just food for thought.
The novels state the the brutes were given unshielded ships and wouldn't have access to all covenant technology until they were with the covenant for some time and prove that they deserved such tech.
The Brutes being worried about friendly fire reminds me of the same strategy being used by Lohengramm in Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
The end is hilarious.
Me watching this at 2 am: I don't need sleep, I need answers
The famous battle of Trafalgar comes to mind where the Royal Navy had a 2 to 1 disadvantage agaisnt the French Navy and won due to superior gunnery and discipline.
Ever hear about the revolutionary war? Kind of the same thing we where way out numbered but by shear force and different tactics we pull out on top
It's funny that the Brutes are somehow the Mass Effect version of the Krogan which share slightly similar history on their home planet.
Yes the Krogan are from a different game and their biology are also different but their military history is the same with the Halo Brutes.
In a situation like this we can look at force multipliers. The odds are only 3 to 1, with a large enough force multiplier those odds can be made closer to 1 to 1, all they need is a kill ratio of 3 to 1 minimum. Since Elites are vastly more experienced (considering they’ve been with the Covenant since it’s founding something over 3000 years before this battle) and more level headed, it’s not hard to see a smaller force defeat a larger one. The Brutes were just given the ships recently, whereas the Elites had been operating such ships for thousands of years (the species that is). Yeah, the outcome was pretty obvious.
Its belivable that shipmaster can pull a victory from 3 to 1 odds, i mean while not the same series there are other cases of a smaller force beating a larger one, such as Mithrawn with 3 small crusiers and a few fighters defeating a Seperatist battle group of larger numbers and weapons, the point im getting at is it boils down to tactics, he who manages his fleet and men best usually will come out on top
As far as whether a smaller force can take out a larger one; yes they can. We've actually seen it happen a couple times during the 2nd World War; where the allies outnumbered German Forces on several battlefronts. Even the Soviets showed that they could take out a larger force of German tanks with a smaller group (in fact, it resulted in one of the most humiliating defeats that the Germans ever suffered.
In the case of Halo, it makes sense. Remember that the Elites are smart, they are warriors to the bone and thus think on a more strategic tactical level than the Brutes, who instead are more brute strength than brains and easily susceptible to rage. The Brutes, while they had a basic understanding of the ships and how they functioned, didn't have the more advanced knowledge that the Elite's had. The Elites knew how to hit those ships, after all they've been serving as officers and crewmen on them far longer than the Brute's had, not to mention some of their own would have been involved in repair work or other kinds of work aboard said ships while the Brutes wouldn't since they'd lack the physical capabilities.
On the ground the Brutes would actually be better due to their strength and oversized bodies, they could overpower an Elite rather easily (well, non-spec ops Elites anyway or any Elite without combat experience). This is why the Brutes serve a better role as ground infantry, instead of warriors piloting or manning a ship.
I think it says a lot now that the banished were able to destroy the infinity with its technically superior shielding and weaponry.
Rtas is such a good comander it is just crazy
"Is it actually possible that a force 1/3 the size of its opponent could win?"
Admiral Yi: Allow me to introduce myself
Let's not forget that the elites were the majority of the shipmasters and tactical leadership of the covenant. The brutes were woefully unprepared to take on the massive task of leading fleets and the covenant as a whole. I bet it would take a very long time to develop a competent and professional officer Corp for the brutes. The elites would undoubtedly smack the brutes around in most space engagements, probably inflicting pyrrhic victories for the brutes even when heavily outnumbered.
In the Art of War by Sun Tsu there's is a battle with 100,000 infantry Vs The enemy 300,000 men on horseback, I believe they may have been Mongols but don't quote me its been a while since I read the book, But who do you think won that battle? The 100,000 infantry with less then 20,000 losses and how you might ask? Well go read the book and find out for yourself it should be at most library's anywhere, but I will tell you it involves simple tactics and strategy. Also there's so much more to the book then that one battle so really read it.
Ps. EckhartsLadder you should do a video on the battles of The Art of War it would be a great learning experience for anyone.