The bad thing about the internet is that is allows people who do not know what they are talking about to publish rubbish. The good thing about the internet is that you can find people who do know what they are talking about. The trick is finding it. I’m very thankful I found this. This material should be on mainstream TV
Well as much as I agree generally with some of the things he spoke about, this interviewer largely never challenged any of the claims made in this video.
I was briefly, back in the late 80's, one of the engineers on LBC back in the day when you guys were on... one of my best memories was when Gerard was asked his advice on whether to buy a specific car, i.e. how reliable it was. It was apparently a bargain at, (if I remember correctly), £500... Gerards advice was priceless and was along the lines of, "Here's what you do my friend... Quickly get to the bank at withdraw £500 in cash in £5 notes... then get on a train to London and get to the River Thames... walk half way across any of the bridges and then slowly throw all the notes into the river. Believe me, you'll have more fun doing that than if you buy the car" It was a priceless moment! I can't remember, for sure, what the vehicle was... and even if I could I probably shouldn't mention it!
@@SkillBuilder Retired a short while ago... Spend my time doing diy, mostly making small pieces of furniture, using proper old style joinery, using mostly reclaimed timber!
Thats the best 46 minutes I have spent watching UA-cam. I think I could have spent another couple of hours listening to Gerard, he has convinced me an electric car is the way forward, and I now know why hydrogen fuel cell will not be powering my future car. You must get him back on to speak again, and thats from someone who was only interested in wood related videos. Brilliant !!!!!!.
Thanks mate it was a gamble for us in terms of our usual content but we love to try new things and I have known him a long time so it was great to catch up.
@@SkillBuilder l am currently looking into the purchase price and running costs of a horse and cart!!!! Could offset some of the costs by selling what comes out the backend!!!!!!!!!
This was brilliant Roger, thanks so much for taking the time to interview him and allowing us to listen in. Such a wealth of knowledge and information there. I thoroughly enjoyed that entire conversation.
@@SkillBuilder agreed. I've shared it because it was great. I've been looking at electric cars for a while now, and after extensive research didn't find half this information online. What a legend!
I have so much respect for you Roger. To reach out to someone to explore and challenge your beliefs and ideas is fantastic. You have approached this in a measured and open way. I wish more people would do this.
Roger, I really appreciate this discussion with Gerard. Very interesting and educating. I’m sure a lot of the subscribers would like more of this Roger. Appreciate and thank you.
I’d like to hear him tell us more about the water heating. That sounds like a right winner for a lot of people if it’s affordable. There’s got to be a better solution than what’s currently available. Great video Roger.
Yes I was curious about that too. There are other methods which are appearing (thermal batteries and so on) but a lot of them seem like they're just rearranging the same old processes. A genuinely new and more efficient method is surely of huge interest.
Elon Musk is working on Air to Air heat pump systems for water and space heating. Water might need a top up heating element but only in the coldest weather.
The future for tradesmen... Instead of just asking to use your loo and dropping a log and wiping their hands on your curtains, they’ll now be asking to plug their van in as well.
Best thing we ever did getting EVs. We have 3 in our family now. Fast, reliable, cheap to run. We have a one 7Kw home charger and swap around on our vehicles or use the garage 240V 13amp socket when not wanting a fast charge.
I'm so pleased I found this whilst searching for electric car information. I'd like to thank Roger immensely for sharing so much knowledge in the last 47 minutes. I await your next chat with anticipation.
@@SkillBuilder Yes, Roger, indeed. A late evening senior moment. I'm very grateful to Gerard for explaining the technology behind the mystery of energy for the future.
I have had an Ev for 5 years and regularly watch the fully charged and other channels. I know all of this stuff but it is a real joy to listen to a real expert and a willing intelligent pupil. It was also great to hear Roger admitting that he deservedly had his arse kicked after some of his rants but even greater to see his attitude. He wants to help people by delivering the facts. The facts don't change but he is discovering more of them.
Smashing video Roger, thanks for taking to time to organise an interview and post it. I work on vehicle powertrain design and I’m looking at the next generation of propulsion but I’m also very interested in the future alternative fuels, power and heat sources for domestic applications. We need more reviews like this that invite informed discussion with industry specialists and without hysteria and political agenda attached. The answers to the future issues depend on the rational thinking of the time served experts, scientists and engineers out there. It won’t be solved by marketing hype and politics. One correction I will point out here however is that during June 2018 the U.K. went 9 days with near zero wind power generation due to an unusually long period of high atmospheric pressure.
What a treat ! I was enjoying this chat between two old friends but I had no idea until the 5 minute mark that Mr Sauer had been CEO of AFC Energy for 8 years. I'm a fan ! I was lucky enough to buy some of their stock last year, and it has soared as people have started to wake up to the potential. Fascinating to hear his views on electric vehicles and green energy. I have heard conflicting views on whether hydrogen will ever be viable for passenger cars but this has convinced me it probably isn't (one thing that wasn't mentioned is that hydrogen burns with a near-invisible flame, which obviously isn't ideal if you manage to puncture the tank). But still masses of potential for domestic and industry use. Great interview chaps.
Roger thank you so much, that was so interesting and has opened my mind to all these concepts. If you can do another video on this subject I am sure it would well appreciated.
I’ve been driving a Nissan e-NV00 electric van for years, it’s fantastic to drive. Also very cheap about £1.30 to drive 100 miles if I charge it from an off peak overnight electricity tariff, or totally free if I plug it in during the daytime when our solar PV is generating. There are some great electric vans now available with over 200 mile range, the Vivaro-e and Maxus eDeliver 3 are very impressive.
@@twig3288 I'm almost certain there will be some sort of pay per mile road tax system which I think will be a good thing, much fairer for everyone. Similar to what they currently have with French toll roads but probably implement digitally. It doesn't really make sense currently that somone who drives 2000 miles per year pays the same road tax as someone who does 20,000 miles per year. I don't think electricity will be heavy taxed, it's easy to generate yourself with solarpv etc
Wow, i say again WOW !.....Colbolt is also used in the manufacture of petrol and diesel too!. My petrol car started off doing 35 to the gallon, after 3 years it dropped down to 31MPG so degradation isn’t something reserved for battery vehicles, fossil ones have the similar issues.
Great video. My leaf turns ten in March. Fantastic car, with still a lot of life in it. Probably around 90% capacity in the battery. There were 5 in Scotland when I got mine, so I'm counting myself as a pioneer. 99% of my driving is in traffic and you really can't beat an electric. Quiet, quick off the mark (straight torque, it can shift) and no a single pedal with regenerative braking when you lift up it begins slowing. You get quickly to the point you can time your approach to lights etc so you barely use your brakes. I've only had two services since new as they weren't value for money, and I do all the minor repairs to brakes etc myself and it's flown through every mot. Only cost more than £100 once and that was because I let the garage do the rear disks because I didn't have time and the mot was due. I charge at home, and only got a cable for the public charges a couple of years ago, I used it a handful of times. When I first bought it, I used to chuck an extension from my top floor flat window to charge at night, which I don't believe the manufacturer recommends! I was in the process of moving so it was a temporary solution. My next flat had a drive, and I just ran an underground cable from the house and got a mate to install one of the home charger things, and cemented a 4x4 timber into the ground to make a little charging point outdoor. It was fine. I now have the same charger on the wall in my garage, which is a little more civilised. Just shows there are plenty of options. Advice I'd give is just be mindful of what you actually do in a car. If you go on holiday once a year, don't buy a car to suit that. If anything, my leaf is too big a vehicle to transport me 20 miles to work every day on my own. On the one or two times I need to go further than range per year, I hire a car. If it covers 99% of your journies, then do it. Finally, I'm not a fan of the battery hire schemes. That battery is an asset, and they'll last longer than you think. Don't pay someone else for that privilege.
As a DIYer who has an interest in the environment and a love for the Lotus Elise, this chat ticked a lot of boxes for me! Very clear and engaging discussion as well, thanks.
Fantastic... Really enjoyed that unbiased view on the different technologies available... It also explains the absence of hydrogen filling stations....
Roger This interview was absolutely brilliant I couldn't stop watching, so much information. One question for Gerard please. If an electric car stands not being used how long before the battery goes flat & if the voltage goes too low will the battery recharge or does that mean a new battery. More interviews of this quality please. Well done Roger
Thanks. I have known Gerard for many years and he is impressive. It would be great if this got more views but we will do a follow up because we enjoyed it.
What a brilliant video, Roger. Absolutely fascinating and what an engaging fellow Gerard is. I am looking at electric vehicles and this was very helpful...there is a lot to take on board. A follow up would be a great idea. Top marks Skill Builder - thank you 👍👍👍
Glad you enjoyed it I have a feeling it won't get that many views becuase it is a bit 'off topic' for us but let's hope it gets shared and we can then get Gerard back for another go. As you say 'a lot to take on board'
Like everybody else,i had to say thanks for this, it's an excellent piece of reality television,just so interesting and cannot wait for another interview with him soon,
Great interview Roger, highly informative...half way through building a next generation home garage with charge ports, getting ready for changing out an Audi A3 and A4 to an ID3 and an ID4. changed times...
Excellent, it's always a pleasure watching your channel. This video is a great start to 2021, any other electricians out there get ready for the madness in the next couple of years when every other driveway will have an electric car on it.
What an incredibly interesting discussion with such a knowledgeable person.Not only about electric vehicles but also the future of home heating. It would be interesting to hear Gerards thoughts on batteries becoming very inefficient in cold weather (range of the vehicle reduces significantly), as living in the UK we have our fair share of cold months. It was that which put me off buying one. Looking forward to the follow up. Thanks
Hi Rodger, I don’t want to sound as if you have nothing to say, but this video is the best one I have ever had the pleasure to listen to and the funny thing is that I subscribed to this channel for the building information.
Same here. I'd be really interested to hear more interviews/videos along similar lines - ie what's happening in the world of clean energy and how it can applied in the real world.
That was really interesting and worth watching . I think you should do a series with Gerard he comes across as very knowledgeable and you seemed to ask all the right questions. I'll definitely think seriously changing my current mode of transport. It's just a question of when ? 👍 top video Roger
Absolutely fascinating. My van only does around 5,000 miles a year so it sounds like electric would be great. A friend of mine said he looked into buying a second hand electric car but the efficiency of the battery after 5 or 6 yeas wouldn't be that good and it would cost a small fortune to replace the batteries. Thanks for posting this Rodger, it was very interesting.
I was told by a mechanic who runs an electric van that batteries are lasting a lot longer than the manufacturers thought and also that there are companies that test the individual cells of a battery that has become inefficient and just replace the bad cells which is much cheaper. You don't have to replace the whole battery pack.
You could run and electric van for 150 miles every work day for 48 weeks in a working year, that's 36,000 miles. The "5 year battery" myth has been thoroughly debunked. Tesla already has a "million mile" battery, with better cells coming this year, so its going to outlast the vehicle........ and you. They will also be reducing the cell cost by 50% over the next few years, building the factories now.
what's the trade in value of the second hand electric, ewer zero I think another throw away device then. hhmmm lets waste 30 grand on a shit electric disposable nail
Great video Roger, very interesting. It would be great to do one about the future of heating systems, heat pumps and the practical problems of how to install them in existing properties.
Wow that was such an interesting discussion Roger.. I never knew town gas had 50% hydrogen and now so many years later we want to use it because we have boilers capable of using it. Kind of reminds me of sinclair and the electric car just wasn't something we were ready for at that time.
Hydrogen as part of other molecules, such as hydrogen sulphide and hydrogen cyanide, not naturally occurring. During the process of making town gas most of the hydrogen is used in making methane. The other major part of town gas is carbon monoxide. That's where the old stories about people committing suicide by shoving their heads into the oven came from.
This is a breath of fresh air, honest and objective, which is a rarity in this day and age, you have my admiration Roger open minded adult debate one wonders why it is generally so difficult.
Great content as always Sir👍One thing your Expert didn't mention was there is no 100% charge penalty with lifepo4 batteries (fitted to most Chinese cars and Tesla's made in China). You touched on the problem of the charge rate dropping off on that last 20% taking a disproportionate amount of time to reach 100%, but your guest didn't comment on that. Ignore the flack you are taking regarding your opinion on Ground Source Heat Pumps, it is clearly not a solution for everyone. All of us want to be more Eco friendly, but the reality of 1 kWh of Electricity costing four times 1 kWh of gas can't be ignored. It is true Electricity can be purchased for the same price as gas from 12.30 am to 4.40 am on the Octopus Go Tarriff for those of us fortunate enough to own an EV, but not everyone has a 12 kWh house battery that can time shift their Electric heating consumption. I look forward to you discussing domestic heating with your incredibly knowledgeable Mr. Gerard Sauer. At least those those without the formal qualifications to do so, will not be able to discredit anything he says!! Power to you Mr. Bisby👍
I first had a ride in an electric car in 1976. It was an electric taxi, made by Lucas and designed by Ogle. Powered by lead acid batteries, it had a range of 100 miles and a top speed of 50 mph. It was years ahead of its time and had a well-designed body. I knew immediately that electric cars and lorries would be our transport of the future. The Lucas Electric Taxi is on UA-cam - shown at the Earl's Court Motor show in 1976.
One question I have is whether the UK power network can handle the extra load if everyone is charging their cars overnight? I know we can build more power generating facilities (solar/wind etc.) but do the cables distributing power around the towns and cities have the capacity to meet the demand? If the plan is to phase out fossil fuel cars by 2030 then surely the major work on the power infrastructure should have started 10 years ago?
The fire risk with lithium batteries is half of the problem apparently a large number of busses pared close together in china surcomed to a massive fire started in just one bus and the fire brigade struggled to put the fires out so they let them burn , once a lithium cell catches fire it develops a chain reaction with all the other cells and the fire spreads rapidly. The fire services are not being consulted in how to deal with these out of control fires and people are dying when their vehicles burst into flames. if combustion engine vehicle sales are being banned in 2030 how do these people imagine a vechicle with a combustion engine burning hydrogen to generate electricity?
Wow! Great content from two people who know what they are talking about in their respective fields. all we need is the lovely Therese Birch from the good old LBC days!
I have been driving electric cars for 3 years now and I will never go back to a petrol/diesel, they are fantastic fun to drive and cheap to own, just 2p per mile to run my Tesla. I have had my Nissan Leaf for 3 years this month and it has never had a problem of any kind. EV's have very few parts to go wrong unlike an internal combustion engine and drive train with its thousands of moving parts and one pedal driving is so relaxing.
AS usual Roger you ask ALL the right questions. Gerard certainly has the answers. I was a builder but now I'm a driving instructor. I am very keen to get an electric car for my business. However they are ALL automatic. You cannot get a manual electric car, It's a real problem. Unless the U.K. govt. go the same way as the U.S. and have one driving test/licence for auto and manual cars, the young drivers I teach will have to take their lessons and test in a manual internal combustion car because they largely can't afford the newer electric automatic cars on the market.This is already a dilemma and looks like being a big problem. I realise this is not your field but maybe you can get some light thrown on the subject. Keep up the great work mate. Great channel........ Brian
Plenty of my own friends have no interested in other social media anyway. Good old websites with UA-cam or self hosted video is the sweet spot. Enjoyed that.
Hi Roger, what a great 46 minutes that was, extremely informative so thanks to the two of you. One question that would have been good to get an answer on was, how do we increase our generating capacity to cope with the increase in demand that all of these electric vehicles will create ? It would be good to get an answer from Gerard sometime. Keep up the good work, cheers Mark
@@SkillBuilder You may want to talk to *The National Grid* ? They rebuffed a Daily Mail misquote of their report on the matter a few years ago, reiterating that EV's *will not* be a problem and in fact can *reduce* grid consumption if used correctly for load balancing. The report is easily found on line. (Also investigate the power used refining oil, I believe it compares to a small/ medium city?) As I said, easily found www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.nationalgrid.com/uk/electricity-transmission/Keeping-36-million-electric-vehicles-on-the-mov&ved=2ahUKEwixiMiu7tTuAhVJQMAKHeFeDtIQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2-d99bpYRQBJ7vfNMD6re7
Brilliant video. Something we don't talk much about in UK is air conditioning. That's what has enabled millions, perhaps billions of people to live in places where only a few thousands could live in older times. Efficiencies and alternative energy sources for that will have a big effect.might even become relevant here with hotter summers and many of our buildings being inefficient both in winter and in summer because our architects didn't used to have to consider it
That was an excellent discussion but the bit about water heaters at 31:00 didn't make any sense. Water heaters are near as dammit 100% efficient already, you can't make them more efficient. Heating the whole volume of water at once does not allow you to do it with less energy and it only allows you to do it faster if you apply more power.
At 31:05 he starts talking about heating the water in your boiler by microwave instead of using a heating element. However resistive heating is a 100% efficient conversion of electricity to heat www.energy.gov/energysaver/home-heating-systems/electric-resistance-heating. A microwave is not 100% efficient so I'm not quite sure where the improved efficiency is coming from. Time saving would reduce lost heat whilst the water is being raised to the required temperature.
My thoughts exactly, that part of the discussion makes no sense and casts a shadow over the rest of it. Heat pumps are the only form of electric heating more than 100% efficient and they don't like DHW temperatures.
Ah, dear old Gerard. How I remember his excellent advice on the good old LBC (not any more) days when they had expert guests on. I will watch this with relish.
I bought my Niro about 18 months ago I can't find one the same spec, age and mileage for less than the price I paid and I have saved about £1.5k on fuel. The battery is warranted for 7 years to be a minimum of 80% state of health so assuming worst case I currently have a range of 250 miles in 7 years the car will still have a range of 200 miles why would you throw that battery away? 200 miles would still be overkill for someone just doing 20 miles a day. Even if you do decide to unecesarily replace the battery as Gerard explained they still have siginficant value for use in home or grid storage where energy density is not as important.
Citroen CX would be a perfect donor for electric conversion. The self levelling suspension will happily adapt to the weight change. A small electric motor drives the hydraulic system.
Where do the raw materials come for batteries when China is controlling all earth metals? They are VERY polluting so at the end of the life if everyone has them how will we dispose of them? WE have a battery factory here in the North East which are already experiencing shortages of raw materials and hardly anyone has an electric car. Has anyone thought this through?
Hi Roger, I've only just found your channel. I watched the discussion with the man from Worcester Bosch, which was very interesting. Thanks for that video and for this really excellent video. A brilliant guest! Can I also suggest a UA-cam channel that is a great source of information on all things to do with zero pollution? The channel is 'Fully Charged'. It's run by Robert Llewellyn (Kryton from Red Dwarf). Like you, he gets lots of experts in different fields on to talk about reducing our carbon footprint and he's very knowledgeable himself (although he says he isn't!). He also quite often has a good rant, just like you. He started his channel 10 years ago when he became one of the country's first electric car users at a time when there was only one public charger! Anyway, enough of my advert for Robert's channel. Thanks again for the two brilliant videos. I look forward to watching lots more.
Very very interesting video. For years i have been against electric cars and power for your house. but lately i have been thinking different. Maybe the future is electric. Great video guys, you should definetly follow up with a few more videos with Gerard.
Very interesting video. I learnt a lot. However, I believe he is wrong about heating water in water tanks. If you ignore heat escaping to the environment from insufficient insulation and losses in the cable, the system is intrinsically 100% efficient. Moreover, the temperature gradient that develops in the tank is actually desirable when the tank isn't fully hot. Other than improving insulation or using thicker cable, I think the only way to improve performance substantially is to use heat transfer technology such as a 'heat pump' but that doesn't sound like what he was describing.
Very good interview with Gerard Sauer . He makes a very positive case for the switch away from fossil fuel and he should know. A very talented and interesting man. He's also a director of several alternative energy companies , my particular interest is with AFC Energy, which he mentions. I would like to hear more of plans to convert domestic gas boilers , which he did touch on.
The British Moltex is a new self regulating nuclear reactor. It is fuelled with waste used fuel. The stuff that costs a fortune to store will provide 20x as much energy as the old traditional reactor extracted. The eventual waste has 1/1000 the life of the old stuff. The Moltex reactor naturally follows the load demand making it ideal for supporting wind and solar generators. It needs no new fuel because it literally uses the high level waste which is without doubt a storage concern.
Have a fuel cell and a battery in the electric car. The battery provides power for acceleration and absorbs regen braking. The fuel cell then just needs to provide a constant output to keep the battery charged. The battery doesn’t need to be very large, as it’s just smoothing the load. In fact supercapacitors might also be able to do the job.
Excellent and informative video, I under now why hydrogen cannot be used for transport, would love to hear more from Gerard very knowledgable and interesting
Always love listening to you Roger. Very informative, however personally, I can't speak for others, cost is always a factor that is majorly important to me. I heard nothing about the cost of any of this, especially is it affordable and for whom? Also, could you have a similar discussion about hybrid vehicles, or is that topic sort of old?
We will put that in the mix for the next one. The Chinese have a lot of new electric cars coming in this year and they will be cheaper to buy and cheap to run.
I use Tesla battery Modules in my off Grid set up! 24v DC nominal so great for off Grid solar/wind provided you know what you are doing safely wise. Good BMS and protection circuits. My works van still petrol/lpg at the moment.
I'm not convinced about the supposed inefficiency of an electric element in water. By definition the resistance of the element to a flow of current (W=I² R) is what generates the heat so 100% of the electrical energy is transferred to the water. I can see that maintaining a tank of water at temperature is lossy, albeit that can be minimised by good insulation, hence only heating as much water instantly as and when you need it, like a combi boiler or electric shower could offer an efficiency improvement providing all the energy is transferred to the water and not lost up a flu or through the casing. However water is also a good storage medium for energy, so using an immersion to heat a large well insulated tank at night, when there is surplus energy, and drawing on it during the day (heat bank) seems to me to make much more sense.
I agree but I suspect we have misunderstood in some way because other than that this guy seemed really clued up. When energy is lost in a wire due to resistance it's because the resistance causes heat which is what you want in a heating element so I'm not sure what he meant.
The bad thing about the internet is that is allows people who do not know what they are talking about to publish rubbish. The good thing about the internet is that you can find people who do know what they are talking about. The trick is finding it. I’m very thankful I found this. This material should be on mainstream TV
Well as much as I agree generally with some of the things he spoke about, this interviewer largely never challenged any of the claims made in this video.
I was briefly, back in the late 80's, one of the engineers on LBC back in the day when you guys were on... one of my best memories was when Gerard was asked his advice on whether to buy a specific car, i.e. how reliable it was. It was apparently a bargain at, (if I remember correctly), £500... Gerards advice was priceless and was along the lines of, "Here's what you do my friend... Quickly get to the bank at withdraw £500 in cash in £5 notes... then get on a train to London and get to the River Thames... walk half way across any of the bridges and then slowly throw all the notes into the river. Believe me, you'll have more fun doing that than if you buy the car"
It was a priceless moment! I can't remember, for sure, what the vehicle was... and even if I could I probably shouldn't mention it!
Hi Simsy
That is a great story. He certainly knows his subject and is a great guy. All the best to you. What are you doing now?
The end of the world is nigh! Mention the name, if you can remember.
@@SkillBuilder Retired a short while ago... Spend my time doing diy, mostly making small pieces of furniture, using proper old style joinery, using mostly reclaimed timber!
@@Pithead I honestly can't remember!
Thats the best 46 minutes I have spent watching UA-cam. I think I could have spent another couple of hours listening to Gerard, he has convinced me an electric car is the way forward, and I now know why hydrogen fuel cell will not be powering my future car. You must get him back on to speak again, and thats from someone who was only interested in wood related videos. Brilliant !!!!!!.
Thanks mate it was a gamble for us in terms of our usual content but we love to try new things and I have known him a long time so it was great to catch up.
@@SkillBuilder l am currently looking into the purchase price and running costs of a horse and cart!!!! Could offset some of the costs by selling what comes out the backend!!!!!!!!!
I wonder if you still thinking about it at the current electricity prices?
This was brilliant Roger, thanks so much for taking the time to interview him and allowing us to listen in. Such a wealth of knowledge and information there. I thoroughly enjoyed that entire conversation.
Glad you enjoyed it Let's hope it carries on getting views. It is a hidden gem in terms of the mine of information Gerard has.
@@SkillBuilder agreed. I've shared it because it was great. I've been looking at electric cars for a while now, and after extensive research didn't find half this information online. What a legend!
Absolutely brilliant conversation- well done guys. Would love to hear more from Gerard
Well done on making the effort to talk to an expert. It educated me more than I expected.
Me too
It’s always great listening to people talking about information the MSM won’t touch or if they do spin it! More of this please m! 👍🏻👏🏻👏🏻☺️
I have so much respect for you Roger. To reach out to someone to explore and challenge your beliefs and ideas is fantastic. You have approached this in a measured and open way. I wish more people would do this.
I appreciate that. I have know Gerrard for many years and respect his knowledge and judgement. That doesn't mean I agree with everything he says.
i think Roger is a man of many talents and interests with a fair mind
Yes a 'rugged' man hiding one of intelligence and insight. A excellent combination.
Like a Fred Dibnah lite
Roger, I really appreciate this discussion with Gerard. Very interesting and educating. I’m sure a lot of the subscribers would like more of this Roger. Appreciate and thank you.
I hope we can get more quality interviews.
I’d like to hear him tell us more about the water heating. That sounds like a right winner for a lot of people if it’s affordable. There’s got to be a better solution than what’s currently available. Great video Roger.
Yes I was curious about that too. There are other methods which are appearing (thermal batteries and so on) but a lot of them seem like they're just rearranging the same old processes. A genuinely new and more efficient method is surely of huge interest.
Elon Musk is working on Air to Air heat pump systems for water and space heating. Water might need a top up heating element but only in the coldest weather.
I can see everyone getting electrocuted in the shower in time as they break down fizz bang
@@madmax1ization Haven't you seen the Triton electric showers, that have been around for decades?
@@straighttalk2069 yeah I have there crap I had one an ripped it out an fitted a gas boiler powered rain shower loads better
The future for tradesmen... Instead of just asking to use your loo and dropping a log and wiping their hands on your curtains, they’ll now be asking to plug their van in as well.
Nah, they'll just plug it in at the end of the day. They likely won't need mid-day top ups so there would be no need to plug in at a client's house.
😂😂
Best thing we ever did getting EVs. We have 3 in our family now. Fast, reliable, cheap to run. We have a one 7Kw home charger and swap around on our vehicles or use the garage 240V 13amp socket when not wanting a fast charge.
I'm so pleased I found this whilst searching for electric car information. I'd like to thank Roger immensely for sharing so much knowledge in the last 47 minutes. I await your next chat with anticipation.
I think Gerard is the man you meant to thank
@@SkillBuilder Yes, Roger, indeed. A late evening senior moment. I'm very grateful to Gerard for explaining the technology behind the mystery of energy for the future.
I have had an Ev for 5 years and regularly watch the fully charged and other channels. I know all of this stuff but it is a real joy to listen to a real expert and a willing intelligent pupil.
It was also great to hear Roger admitting that he deservedly had his arse kicked after some of his rants but even greater to see his attitude. He wants to help people by delivering the facts. The facts don't change but he is discovering more of them.
Smashing video Roger, thanks for taking to time to organise an interview and post it.
I work on vehicle powertrain design and I’m looking at the next generation of propulsion but I’m also very interested in the future alternative fuels, power and heat sources for domestic applications.
We need more reviews like this that invite informed discussion with industry specialists and without hysteria and political agenda attached.
The answers to the future issues depend on the rational thinking of the time served experts, scientists and engineers out there. It won’t be solved by marketing hype and politics.
One correction I will point out here however is that during June 2018 the U.K. went 9 days with near zero wind power generation due to an unusually long period of high atmospheric pressure.
What a treat ! I was enjoying this chat between two old friends but I had no idea until the 5 minute mark that Mr Sauer had been CEO of AFC Energy for 8 years. I'm a fan ! I was lucky enough to buy some of their stock last year, and it has soared as people have started to wake up to the potential. Fascinating to hear his views on electric vehicles and green energy. I have heard conflicting views on whether hydrogen will ever be viable for passenger cars but this has convinced me it probably isn't (one thing that wasn't mentioned is that hydrogen burns with a near-invisible flame, which obviously isn't ideal if you manage to puncture the tank). But still masses of potential for domestic and industry use. Great interview chaps.
Roger thank you so much, that was so interesting and has opened my mind to all these concepts. If you can do another video on this subject I am sure it would well appreciated.
We will try. It will be more structured because we need to get through a lot of information
Listened all the way through. Thanks Rog and Gerard.
WOW. Get him on again. Fantastic.
I’ve been driving a Nissan e-NV00 electric van for years, it’s fantastic to drive. Also very cheap about £1.30 to drive 100 miles if I charge it from an off peak overnight electricity tariff, or totally free if I plug it in during the daytime when our solar PV is generating. There are some great electric vans now available with over 200 mile range, the Vivaro-e and Maxus eDeliver 3 are very impressive.
What do you think will happen when EVs outnumber ICE vehicles and the government need to replace the revenue loss from fuel duty?
@@twig3288 I'm almost certain there will be some sort of pay per mile road tax system which I think will be a good thing, much fairer for everyone. Similar to what they currently have with French toll roads but probably implement digitally. It doesn't really make sense currently that somone who drives 2000 miles per year pays the same road tax as someone who does 20,000 miles per year. I don't think electricity will be heavy taxed, it's easy to generate yourself with solarpv etc
It is only cheap to run because other folk are being charged for your electricity.
@Peter Hicks There is a special Octopus Go EV only tariff which is still 5p/kWh to charge off-peak, this is about £1.25 for 100 miles of charge.
It won't be so cheap when you start getting charged per mile to make up for all the lost fuel duty
This is one of the most Interesting & Entertaining Videos on your channel Rodger, Really Enjoyed This,
Get this Guy Back On Again ASAP 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👍
That was brilliant ! He is a very knowledgeable man I hope you have him back on again soon !
Wow, i say again WOW !.....Colbolt is also used in the manufacture of petrol and diesel too!. My petrol car started off doing 35 to the gallon, after 3 years it dropped down to 31MPG so degradation isn’t something reserved for battery vehicles, fossil ones have the similar issues.
Great video. My leaf turns ten in March. Fantastic car, with still a lot of life in it. Probably around 90% capacity in the battery. There were 5 in Scotland when I got mine, so I'm counting myself as a pioneer. 99% of my driving is in traffic and you really can't beat an electric. Quiet, quick off the mark (straight torque, it can shift) and no a single pedal with regenerative braking when you lift up it begins slowing. You get quickly to the point you can time your approach to lights etc so you barely use your brakes. I've only had two services since new as they weren't value for money, and I do all the minor repairs to brakes etc myself and it's flown through every mot. Only cost more than £100 once and that was because I let the garage do the rear disks because I didn't have time and the mot was due.
I charge at home, and only got a cable for the public charges a couple of years ago, I used it a handful of times. When I first bought it, I used to chuck an extension from my top floor flat window to charge at night, which I don't believe the manufacturer recommends! I was in the process of moving so it was a temporary solution. My next flat had a drive, and I just ran an underground cable from the house and got a mate to install one of the home charger things, and cemented a 4x4 timber into the ground to make a little charging point outdoor. It was fine. I now have the same charger on the wall in my garage, which is a little more civilised. Just shows there are plenty of options.
Advice I'd give is just be mindful of what you actually do in a car. If you go on holiday once a year, don't buy a car to suit that. If anything, my leaf is too big a vehicle to transport me 20 miles to work every day on my own. On the one or two times I need to go further than range per year, I hire a car. If it covers 99% of your journies, then do it. Finally, I'm not a fan of the battery hire schemes. That battery is an asset, and they'll last longer than you think. Don't pay someone else for that privilege.
Great advice Rico
As a DIYer who has an interest in the environment and a love for the Lotus Elise, this chat ticked a lot of boxes for me! Very clear and engaging discussion as well, thanks.
Why do you lot believe this rubbish
This guy is brilliant let’s see more of him. Great.
Good work Roger, I’m clued up on the topic but always good to hear the message getting out.
Fantastic... Really enjoyed that unbiased view on the different technologies available... It also explains the absence of hydrogen filling stations....
Amazing and top class skill builder, away from the usual content and thoroughly enjoyable.
I thoroughly enjoyed this Roger, Gerard is a sponge of information & great to listen too. More please.
We loved it but so far the views are not great. It is off topic for us but we hope it picks up and we can do more.
@@SkillBuilder I hope it picks up too. A subject we will all need to familiarise ourselves with soon enough
Totally amazing. That guy knows his stuff. Thank you Roger. That was so interesting.
Roger This interview was absolutely brilliant I couldn't stop watching, so much information. One question for Gerard please. If an electric car stands not being used how long before the battery goes flat & if the voltage goes too low will the battery recharge or does that mean a new battery. More interviews of this quality please. Well done Roger
Thanks. I have known Gerard for many years and he is impressive. It would be great if this got more views but we will do a follow up because we enjoyed it.
What a brilliant video, Roger. Absolutely fascinating and what an engaging fellow Gerard is. I am looking at electric vehicles and this was very helpful...there is a lot to take on board. A follow up would be a great idea. Top marks Skill Builder - thank you 👍👍👍
Glad you enjoyed it I have a feeling it won't get that many views becuase it is a bit 'off topic' for us but let's hope it gets shared and we can then get Gerard back for another go. As you say 'a lot to take on board'
Like everybody else,i had to say thanks for this, it's an excellent piece of reality television,just so interesting and cannot wait for another interview with him soon,
What a great guy to interview,speaks fantastic English,plus of course his native language and had so much information for us to learn!
Glad you enjoyed it! He is very clever
WoW Roger,,, how interesting your chat was,,, love your questions as well ,,, would love to see a part 2 of.
I was glued to the screen!..very informative !.. thanks so much for putting this together!.
I knew there were several reasons I was getting addicted to this channel! great stuff.
Great interview Roger, highly informative...half way through building a next generation home garage with charge ports, getting ready for changing out an Audi A3 and A4 to an ID3 and an ID4. changed times...
Excellent, it's always a pleasure watching your channel. This video is a great start to 2021, any other electricians out there get ready for the madness in the next couple of years when every other driveway will have an electric car on it.
What an incredibly interesting discussion with such a knowledgeable person.Not only about electric vehicles but also the future of home heating. It would be interesting to hear Gerards thoughts on batteries becoming very inefficient in cold weather (range of the vehicle reduces significantly), as living in the UK we have our fair share of cold months. It was that which put me off buying one. Looking forward to the follow up. Thanks
Hi Rodger, I don’t want to sound as if you have nothing to say, but this video is the best one I have ever had the pleasure to listen to and the funny thing is that I subscribed to this channel for the building information.
Same here. I'd be really interested to hear more interviews/videos along similar lines - ie what's happening in the world of clean energy and how it can applied in the real world.
Fantastically illuminating discussion ..fun and educational ..keep up the good work Roger .
That was really interesting and worth watching . I think you should do a series with Gerard he comes across as very knowledgeable and you seemed to ask all the right questions. I'll definitely think seriously changing my current mode of transport. It's just a question of when ? 👍 top video Roger
Absolutely fascinating. My van only does around 5,000 miles a year so it sounds like electric would be great. A friend of mine said he looked into buying a second hand electric car but the efficiency of the battery after 5 or 6 yeas wouldn't be that good and it would cost a small fortune to replace the batteries.
Thanks for posting this Rodger, it was very interesting.
I was told by a mechanic who runs an electric van that batteries are lasting a lot longer than the manufacturers thought and also that there are companies that test the individual cells of a battery that has become inefficient and just replace the bad cells which is much cheaper. You don't have to replace the whole battery pack.
You could run and electric van for 150 miles every work day for 48 weeks in a working year, that's 36,000 miles.
The "5 year battery" myth has been thoroughly debunked.
Tesla already has a "million mile" battery, with better cells coming this year, so its going to outlast the vehicle........ and you.
They will also be reducing the cell cost by 50% over the next few years, building the factories now.
@@rogerstarkey5390 I didn't know the 5 year battery had been proven wrong. Good to know 😁👍🏻
what's the trade in value of the second hand electric, ewer zero I think another throw away device then. hhmmm lets waste 30 grand on a shit electric disposable nail
Great video Roger, very interesting. It would be great to do one about the future of heating systems, heat pumps and the practical problems of how to install them in existing properties.
Great episode, great guest, and as you alluded to, talking about domestic heating would also be great.
Great video, loving the content of these interviews!
Wow that was such an interesting discussion Roger.. I never knew town gas had 50% hydrogen and now so many years later we want to use it because we have boilers capable of using it. Kind of reminds me of sinclair and the electric car just wasn't something we were ready for at that time.
Hydrogen as part of other molecules, such as hydrogen sulphide and hydrogen cyanide, not naturally occurring. During the process of making town gas most of the hydrogen is used in making methane. The other major part of town gas is carbon monoxide. That's where the old stories about people committing suicide by shoving their heads into the oven came from.
Very interesting, more of these interviews would be great 👍
We will try
This is a breath of fresh air, honest and objective, which is a rarity in this day and age, you have my admiration Roger open minded adult debate one wonders why it is generally so difficult.
Fascinating. I learned a lot from that. 10/10 for this one ✔ Living in Cornwall waiting for a lithium spring to come up in my garden ....
Great content as always Sir👍One thing your Expert didn't mention was there is no 100% charge penalty with lifepo4 batteries (fitted to most Chinese cars and Tesla's made in China). You touched on the problem of the charge rate dropping off on that last 20% taking a disproportionate amount of time to reach 100%, but your guest didn't comment on that. Ignore the flack you are taking regarding your opinion on Ground Source Heat Pumps, it is clearly not a solution for everyone. All of us want to be more Eco friendly, but the reality of 1 kWh of Electricity costing four times 1 kWh of gas can't be ignored. It is true Electricity can be purchased for the same price as gas from 12.30 am to 4.40 am on the Octopus Go Tarriff for those of us fortunate enough to own an EV, but not everyone has a 12 kWh house battery that can time shift their Electric heating consumption. I look forward to you discussing domestic heating with your incredibly knowledgeable Mr. Gerard Sauer. At least those those without the formal qualifications to do so, will not be able to discredit anything he says!! Power to you Mr. Bisby👍
I first had a ride in an electric car in 1976. It was an electric taxi, made by Lucas and designed by Ogle. Powered by lead acid batteries, it had a range of 100 miles and a top speed of 50 mph. It was years ahead of its time and had a well-designed body. I knew immediately that electric cars and lorries would be our transport of the future. The Lucas Electric Taxi is on UA-cam - shown at the Earl's Court Motor show in 1976.
Roger, really interesting, learned so much! Please do another chat!
We will do another one but we really need this video to do better so please share it.
Superb video guys 👍. One of the most interesting things I've seen in years, you should definitely have Gerard back on.
Many thanks
Regards
Tim
I wouldn't buy one if they paid me to. Unless i had the luxury of having more than one car.
Have posted it on my LinkedIn profile (and I don't post often) plus invited Gerard to connect. Great discussion.
One question I have is whether the UK power network can handle the extra load if everyone is charging their cars overnight? I know we can build more power generating facilities (solar/wind etc.) but do the cables distributing power around the towns and cities have the capacity to meet the demand? If the plan is to phase out fossil fuel cars by 2030 then surely the major work on the power infrastructure should have started 10 years ago?
The fire risk with lithium batteries is half of the problem apparently a large number of busses pared close together in china surcomed to a massive fire started in just one bus and the fire brigade struggled to put the fires out so they let them burn , once a lithium cell catches fire it develops a chain reaction with all the other cells and the fire spreads rapidly. The fire services are not being consulted in how to deal with these out of control fires and people are dying when their vehicles burst into flames. if combustion engine vehicle sales are being banned in 2030 how do these people imagine a vechicle with a combustion engine burning hydrogen to generate electricity?
Fires per 100k sales
Hybrid 3,474.5
ICE 1,529.9
EV 25.1
Figures from NTSB in the the US.
Wow! Great content from two people who know what they are talking about in their respective fields. all we need is the lovely Therese Birch from the good old LBC days!
I don't know where she went to but she was a good broadcaster.
I have been driving electric cars for 3 years now and I will never go back to a petrol/diesel, they are fantastic fun to drive and cheap to own, just 2p per mile to run my Tesla. I have had my Nissan Leaf for 3 years this month and it has never had a problem of any kind. EV's have very few parts to go wrong unlike an internal combustion engine and drive train with its thousands of moving parts and one pedal driving is so relaxing.
AS usual Roger you ask ALL the right questions. Gerard certainly has the answers. I was a builder but now I'm a driving instructor. I am very keen to get an electric car for my business. However they are ALL automatic. You cannot get a manual electric car, It's a real problem. Unless the U.K. govt. go the same way as the U.S. and have one driving test/licence for auto and manual cars, the young drivers I teach will have to take their lessons and test in a manual internal combustion car because they largely can't afford the newer electric automatic cars on the market.This is already a dilemma and looks like being a big problem. I realise this is not your field but maybe you can get some light thrown on the subject.
Keep up the great work mate. Great channel........ Brian
Brian
That is a great point. I have never heard it before but it makes sense. I will put it to Gerard for comment.
Plenty of my own friends have no interested in other social media anyway. Good old websites with UA-cam or self hosted video is the sweet spot. Enjoyed that.
Two intelligent people having an intelligent conversation that is interesting and informative. Very good.
Hi Roger, what a great 46 minutes that was, extremely informative so thanks to the two of you. One question that would have been good to get an answer on was, how do we increase our generating capacity to cope with the increase in demand that all of these electric vehicles will create ? It would be good to get an answer from Gerard sometime. Keep up the good work, cheers Mark
Our next interview with Martyn Bridges from Worcester Bosch touches on that subject.
Cheers, I'll keep an eye out for it.
Electricity demand in the uk has been falling for many years, the grid all ready has significant spare capacity
@@SkillBuilder
You may want to talk to *The National Grid* ?
They rebuffed a Daily Mail misquote of their report on the matter a few years ago, reiterating that EV's *will not* be a problem and in fact can *reduce* grid consumption if used correctly for load balancing.
The report is easily found on line.
(Also investigate the power used refining oil, I believe it compares to a small/ medium city?)
As I said, easily found
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.nationalgrid.com/uk/electricity-transmission/Keeping-36-million-electric-vehicles-on-the-mov&ved=2ahUKEwixiMiu7tTuAhVJQMAKHeFeDtIQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2-d99bpYRQBJ7vfNMD6re7
Brilliant video. Something we don't talk much about in UK is air conditioning. That's what has enabled millions, perhaps billions of people to live in places where only a few thousands could live in older times. Efficiencies and alternative energy sources for that will have a big effect.might even become relevant here with hotter summers and many of our buildings being inefficient both in winter and in summer because our architects didn't used to have to consider it
Very interesting, love listening to people who know their stuff.
That was an excellent discussion but the bit about water heaters at 31:00 didn't make any sense. Water heaters are near as dammit 100% efficient already, you can't make them more efficient. Heating the whole volume of water at once does not allow you to do it with less energy and it only allows you to do it faster if you apply more power.
Good point.
At 31:05 he starts talking about heating the water in your boiler by microwave instead of using a heating element. However resistive heating is a 100% efficient conversion of electricity to heat www.energy.gov/energysaver/home-heating-systems/electric-resistance-heating. A microwave is not 100% efficient so I'm not quite sure where the improved efficiency is coming from. Time saving would reduce lost heat whilst the water is being raised to the required temperature.
My thoughts exactly, that part of the discussion makes no sense and casts a shadow over the rest of it. Heat pumps are the only form of electric heating more than 100% efficient and they don't like DHW temperatures.
Ah, dear old Gerard. How I remember his excellent advice on the good old LBC (not any more) days when they had expert guests on. I will watch this with relish.
I'm glad to say that my having an open mind, although skeptical, has made this great chat make me feel optimistic about the future.
What I would like to know is Second hand value and cost of renewing batteries
I bought my Niro about 18 months ago I can't find one the same spec, age and mileage for less than the price I paid and I have saved about £1.5k on fuel. The battery is warranted for 7 years to be a minimum of 80% state of health so assuming worst case I currently have a range of 250 miles in 7 years the car will still have a range of 200 miles why would you throw that battery away? 200 miles would still be overkill for someone just doing 20 miles a day. Even if you do decide to unecesarily replace the battery as Gerard explained they still have siginficant value for use in home or grid storage where energy density is not as important.
Fascinating interview. I love to hear facts not emotional responses.
good to see gerard sauer still going, avid reader of triple c magazine and his page, clever bloke.
Brilliant. Very informative and interesting. Thank you
Citroen CX would be a perfect donor for electric conversion. The self levelling suspension will happily adapt to the weight change. A small electric motor drives the hydraulic system.
Where do the raw materials come for batteries when China is controlling all earth metals? They are VERY polluting so at the end of the life if everyone has them how will we dispose of them? WE have a battery factory here in the North East which are already experiencing shortages of raw materials and hardly anyone has an electric car. Has anyone thought this through?
Hi Roger,
I've only just found your channel. I watched the discussion with the man from Worcester Bosch, which was very interesting. Thanks for that video and for this really excellent video. A brilliant guest!
Can I also suggest a UA-cam channel that is a great source of information on all things to do with zero pollution? The channel is 'Fully Charged'. It's run by Robert Llewellyn (Kryton from Red Dwarf). Like you, he gets lots of experts in different fields on to talk about reducing our carbon footprint and he's very knowledgeable himself (although he says he isn't!). He also quite often has a good rant, just like you. He started his channel 10 years ago when he became one of the country's first electric car users at a time when there was only one public charger!
Anyway, enough of my advert for Robert's channel. Thanks again for the two brilliant videos. I look forward to watching lots more.
Very very interesting video. For years i have been against electric cars and power for your house. but lately i have been thinking different. Maybe the future is electric. Great video guys, you should definetly follow up with a few more videos with Gerard.
Have a look at this. ua-cam.com/video/ipOeH7GW0M8/v-deo.html
Much better than watching TV!
Very interesting video. I learnt a lot.
However, I believe he is wrong about heating water in water tanks. If you ignore heat escaping to the environment from insufficient insulation and losses in the cable, the system is intrinsically 100% efficient. Moreover, the temperature gradient that develops in the tank is actually desirable when the tank isn't fully hot. Other than improving insulation or using thicker cable, I think the only way to improve performance substantially is to use heat transfer technology such as a 'heat pump' but that doesn't sound like what he was describing.
Thought this was an special episode of FULLY CHARGED for a moment!!!
Fully charged are amateurs compared to Gerard.
With more insightful knowledge and less ranting.
So what fuel source is providing the power COAL
How much will a fast charge cost
Very good interview with Gerard Sauer . He makes a very positive case for the switch away from fossil fuel and he should know. A very talented and interesting man. He's also a director of several alternative energy companies , my particular interest is with AFC Energy, which he mentions. I would like to hear more of plans to convert domestic gas boilers , which he did touch on.
We have that video coming up soon. We are talking to Martyn Bridges from Worcester Bosch
The British Moltex is a new self regulating nuclear reactor. It is fuelled with waste used fuel. The stuff that costs a fortune to store will provide 20x as much energy as the old traditional reactor extracted. The eventual waste has 1/1000 the life of the old stuff. The Moltex reactor naturally follows the load demand making it ideal for supporting wind and solar generators. It needs no new fuel because it literally uses the high level waste which is without doubt a storage concern.
When you say "is"....
It's operational then?
Fascinating talk, thank you both :)
This Guy is Very Knowledgeably,
Enjoying this Very Much 👍
Have a fuel cell and a battery in the electric car. The battery provides power for acceleration and absorbs regen braking. The fuel cell then just needs to provide a constant output to keep the battery charged. The battery doesn’t need to be very large, as it’s just smoothing the load. In fact supercapacitors might also be able to do the job.
Excellent and informative video, I under now why hydrogen cannot be used for transport, would love to hear more from Gerard very knowledgable and interesting
Always love listening to you Roger. Very informative, however personally, I can't speak for others, cost is always a factor that is majorly important to me. I heard nothing about the cost of any of this, especially is it affordable and for whom? Also, could you have a similar discussion about hybrid vehicles, or is that topic sort of old?
We will put that in the mix for the next one. The Chinese have a lot of new electric cars coming in this year and they will be cheaper to buy and cheap to run.
Brilliant video, Defo get him on again.
Wow. That was fascinating to watch 👌🏻
I use Tesla battery Modules in my off Grid set up! 24v DC nominal so great for off Grid solar/wind provided you know what you are doing safely wise. Good BMS and protection circuits. My works van still petrol/lpg at the moment.
I'm not convinced about the supposed inefficiency of an electric element in water. By definition the resistance of the element to a flow of current (W=I² R) is what generates the heat so 100% of the electrical energy is transferred to the water. I can see that maintaining a tank of water at temperature is lossy, albeit that can be minimised by good insulation, hence only heating as much water instantly as and when you need it, like a combi boiler or electric shower could offer an efficiency improvement providing all the energy is transferred to the water and not lost up a flu or through the casing. However water is also a good storage medium for energy, so using an immersion to heat a large well insulated tank at night, when there is surplus energy, and drawing on it during the day (heat bank) seems to me to make much more sense.
I agree but I suspect we have misunderstood in some way because other than that this guy seemed really clued up. When energy is lost in a wire due to resistance it's because the resistance causes heat which is what you want in a heating element so I'm not sure what he meant.
i❤CO2 - you should too
Trees and plants can grow and we have oxygen and food. Globalist can do one. And cash is king.
It’s the stuff of life
Thank you I have learnt a lot. Well done.
I wonder how cheap it will be when pay per mile starts to pay for all that lost fuel duty and vat?