If Mara can destroy pyramid ships, I imagine it's neither easy nor without considerable risk to herself. I wouldn't be surprised if she were keeping a low profile to avoid a focused retaliation from the forces of The Witness.
I'd also imagine that even if the considerable risk to herself or others - either in retaliation or in immediate threat of harm from performing the action that led to the Pyramid's destruction - was acceptable, and she can indeed do it again, that perhaps not using it immediately is the best course of action. If your opponent believes you can only perform one such miracle move, and that you've already spent it, they relax or ease thinking that the enemy had but a single nuclear weapon, so to speak. Surely if they had a second, they'd have used it by now. If she were to use it again (assuming she can) before some vital moment, she would be tipping her hand that her one-off-shot was replicatable, and that makes her an immediate threat which while possibly valuable as a distraction is not worth the cost if Mara and her abilities are lost before they're most needed. Alternatively, Mara can replicate this move with ease, and the knowledge that the Pyramids and their Master cannot adapt is something of a deterrent to the Witness, for the time being. A classic stalemate via MAD. If she acts first, the Pyramids move in retaliation and cause incalculable damage before the other pieces on the board are ready to move in defense. If the Pyramids act first, Mara retaliates and does untold damage to the Black Fleet before its allies are fully positioned for defense or offense. But keeping it all vague means nobody but herself knows. There's no possibility of an intelligence leak if the only possible point of leak is yourself, and you ain't saying jack shit to nobody. That's always been Mara's play, tell nobody and nobody tells. It's worked so far.
Likely similar to what happened with oryx. Incredibly risky and could be a huge beacon for the darkness, if there's a massive surge in paracausal energy
I like how Fenchurch puts all this effort into using their assigned code names and keeping objective description and his personal interpretation separate and Ikora is just like ‘so anyway, Savathun and Mara Sov-‘
Do you think that the moment where Mara went EVA to the pyramid is the moment where the Witness offered to make her a disciple? Mara did say she had recieved the offer but turned it down. Maybe the destruction of the pyramid had something to do with her refusal.
I could see that being the case. The Witness gives her brief control of the ship to try to entice her, only for Mara to make the ship destroy itself to punctuate her refusal. As if to say "Here's what I think of your 'Final Shape'".
My guess is that she didn’t destroy it intentionally. Even if she did, an important detail is that she may have entered the ship. Remember how Asher experimented with chucking nukes at the pyramid externally? It could be different from the inside. If we are to look at the pyramids as having ‘armor plating’, we may be able to draw upon examples in the real world. For instance: during WWII, some countries used special techniques when building tanks. In the case of the British Churchill tanks, the exterior was tempered in a way that made it stronger. As a result, if you try to cut that armor from the outside in, it’s incredibly difficult. But if you try to cut it from the inside out, it’s not any more difficult than your average chunk of metal of the same thickness (mostly). So it’s somewhat plausible that the pyramid ship could have been destroyed from the inside out.
I think you're on to something that she may not have (entirely) done it intentionally. Knowing Mara's cool, measured, methodical approach and demeanor, I have a hard time imagining she was just like, "Hey Eris, wanna see if I can blow up a Pyramid?" Mara wouldn't make that kind of move without seeing what kind of reaction might follow. She's arrogant and overconfident much of the time (refer to being bested in the Battle of Saturn by Oryx and then again in the pact with Savathun), but she rarely acts without considering the consequences (the problem being that she seems to just overestimate herself). Attacking a pyramid ship, be it head on or under the disguise of Oryx or whatever, is a BIG move to make, even for her. I wonder if she didn't enter the ship and was confronted by The Witness, which lead to her lashing out in a way she may have not been aware was possible?
@@C.M.Giordano i could also imagine her death having been the cause of the pyramids destruction. Correct me if im wrong, but i THINK we have other reports of Mara actually dying. Maybe uppon her death, all the paracausal energy she has acces to at the time gets realeased at once, and that might have been what nuked the pyramid.
Technically face hardening of armor has been done since pre ww1 on armored naval vessels (cruisers and bigger), and afaik almost every tank and armored vehicle has face hardened armor. The reason that you harden the outward facing part of the armor is more to do with the impact ballistics of steel armor and projectiles. Since the face (outward bit) of the armor is hardened, it’s less likely to cause the shell to either shatter, or deflect away from the armor, rather than “catch” the armor and cause the shell to turn closer to perpendicular to the armor. TLDR: armor is face hardened because it makes shells more likely to bounce off without penetrating.
I can imagine two scenarios. Either, this is the moment where Mara was offered the role of Disciple in the Pyramid, refused it, and the fact that the Darkness' philosophy of "all things turn to its principles, it is inherently a truth of the universe, etc etc" was turned down by someone so paracausally powerful essentially was the same as a divide by zero error for the Pyramid. Or, the only way to affect or destroy a Pyramid is by getting physically inside of it and doing damage. While I think the former is the more correct answer, the fact that the Cabal could get into the Pyramid of Europa and could mess with some of the tech to a reasonable degree, as well as Rhulk's Upender (located within the Pyramid) backfired thanks to Savathun playing the Uno reverse card on it and it cracked, makes me think that the surface of a Pyramid is as indestructible as an event horizon, but the inside is the weakness. (Good luck getting in though)
Interesting how Ikora referred to Mara as parts of a bomb. It makes me think about how we may use the Bomb Logic to counter the Black Fleet. In fact, this year's seasonal content all seems to be leading up to that conclusion. Our alliances with the Cabal and Eliknsi allow us to accomplish things that guardians could not accomplish alone, with the difference compounding and growing exponentially as more parts are added.
Something I feel is worth noting about the initial lore entry is it was released with the Stolen Intelligence books back in Season of the Drifter. I.E. before Eris found the Pyramid on the Moon. This incident could very well have alerted Eris to the Lunar Pyramid's presence.
I vaguely remember a lore card from Foresaken describing a future scenario (so a premonition of some kind) where Mara splits a pyramid ship in two. Of course, it's just a premonition but given how powerful she is and now there's questions of whether she's already done it, I wouldn't be surprised if she actually can.
You're thinking of the lore tab for the Sleepless rocket launcher. It has Sjur Eido telling Mara about a dream she just had where Mara was on a "black triangle" (obviously a Pyramid ship) with another woman, possibly Eris, and that Mara broke the "triangle" in half with her bare hands.
@@frostwendigo7646 I always thought that was very interesting how Sjur said that she was dead, or more likely lost, I personally think that she's out there somewhere
Can't wait to listen to this one! I work 12 hour shifts and just discovered your videos. I can't tell you how awesome it is to have this interesting content to entertain me all day. I dove headfirst into destiny about a month ago and I'm sad it took me this long to find your lore videos, as I would have understood so much more going into the witch queen
Mara sov is an absolute badass and easily imo our most powerful ally. As long as she remains our ally.... Love your work byf massive fan since d1 days much love and respect.
I love it when the Destiny lore (or any game for that matter) references Tolkien's work. Like the Castlevania franchise, it has some deep references to the legendarium, especially Symphony of the Night.
I think she did. In the lore tab for the Sleepless rocket launcher Sjur had a dream of Mara destroying a black pyramid while standing with her brother and Elsie Bray. Sjur in her usual casual manner got distracted from the dream when it was clear Mara wasn't paying full attention. So Mara's capability to do so has been kinda foreshadowed since Forsaken
Damn, Ikora just casually providing a comprehensive deconstruction of Mara's character and motives in that lore tab. It's actually a very good way to help people understand why Mara is the way she is instead of just hating her because her methods are... Irritating sometimes.
Tbf as the player we practically have been essential for every major move that has insured her plans go well without us acting they would all be dead at this point. Hence her insistence that every thing need be a secret with us feels like personal distrust after some time.
@Alberto Zalon It’s called being wise which Mara is… she isn’t insistent that everything be secret to *us* she insists they be in general. So taking that personally is kinda weird. Not to mention considering we let Savathun run around in the city for months feeding her intel and granting authority seems like the pretty damn good reason that Maras methods are sound.
Something that really bugs me at the back of my mind about all of this is that Mara doesn't strike me as someone who would drag Eris along with her without a good reason. She spent god knows how long alone doing all sorts of incredibly dangerous things for her own ends, calculating every move and knowing her enemy as thoroughly as possible before doing anything. I feel like if Mara knew a way to destroy a ship, she would just go off and try it herself and make sure a report gets back to Petra and/or Eris. She wouldn't have just on a whim gone off with Eris to give something a go on the off chance. She must have had a solid plan and I feel like that plan didn't quite go the way she intended it to. My guess is that Mara needed Eris for a key component of the attack - possibly her Hive magic - and feels genuine remorse for what happened to Eris in the wake of it, and perhaps doesn't want to use this particular method for fear of losing Eris
To be honest I always sensed that Mara Sov was far more powerful than she let on since the beginning in D1. Like when she called on the Guardians to take care of Skolas, I didn't hesitate to hunt him down. Just as much so when she ordered his execution in the Prison of Elders. The Hildian Seeker I got from it was a nice bonus I absolutely cherished until Ghaul blew it up. I really miss that ship, especially when it was a gift from Mara. If she wants my grip around the Witness's throat, that's an absolute win in my book.
"I do not comprehend them either. I traveled among the Jovians for years, in their dominion. But I do not know the Nine. You, Mara Sov... you are the only one who bargains with them. You are the only one who has foreseen their role in the game. You keep your successes secret, so the world only knows your mistakes. No wonder I underestimated you." ^ Skolas to Mara in The Kell lore tab. Mara has always hidden her triumphs. We only see the mistakes she makes because she wants us to.
With both the ship on the moon and on Europe, they're somewhat inactive unlike the one in savathuns throne world which had a witnesses deciple on board so maybe its an accessibility issue. Logically it makes sense to deal with imminent threats first rather than inactive ones that can be studied. Perhaps wrestling control away from the ships is easier should they be inactive and if so, need to be taken from the witnesses grasp before destruction can begin
The ship could have also self-destructed if Mara came too close to learning some of its secrets (might explain Eris' comment "pathetic"). But it's not the only ship to be damaged given the one spit open in the throne world.
3 things that I want to talk about real quick: 1. Byf, your work is amazing, and I enjoy listening to it whenever I want to just vibe and channel my Inner Warlock 2. Who is getting a SCP vibe with these Hidden reports? I don't know why, but they just do whenever they have the constant numbers instead of them just using the names of the people. 3.I get the feeling that Eris was using the Planet Eris as a scapegoat for the nearby planet, and decided to use that, and the actual place was in code to the Message from Cayde a while back. Enceladus. And whatever IS on Enceladus could be something that the 3D Doritos tried to get. Mara and Moondust got there first, and the shrapnel of the ship they possibly blew up and the planet they were on was the cause of the gash on Eris' leg. Whatever is on Enceladus, I hope we get to know soon, or at least Petra tells us what it is. Sorry about my long theory there. Stay safe Guardians!
Great vid as always, ty Byf! Sure she could, and likely did, perhaps a smaller one - there are always some sort of convoy ships on large-scale depictions of the fleet. She could use those glowy-balls, that are sorta sentient or something, the ones she used on Oryx's ship. Given that the pyramids are artaficial constructs with a centralized guiding intellegence and not that big of an autonomy, it'd be reasonable to assume, one unit won't be as invulnurable as the inverted Trone World of a ship with it's master on board and actively in control of it, so the glowy-balls could do stuff to it imo. Since there is no mention of any tachions there, she might've attempted it on her own - so Eris then had to save her ass. This might be a small hint to a final showdown event, when everyone would be doing this stuff one way or the other and we - the mentally-challenged mute demigod - charge the lead ship. Given the size of the fleet it seems inevitable that we're looking at another sci-fi cliche in making, you know, the Phantom Menace Independance Day kind, kill the mothership - save the day, "disa droids bom-bad broken". But as an excuse for others to do something and not help us to fight thew Witness on the top of the biggest pyramid, they'd have to be killin lesser advancing ships one-by-one.
She needed her Techeuns to do that attack. It destroyed the fleet but not Oryx's ship. If they didn't destroy the Dreadnaught, they might not be able to destroy a pyramid ship either
@@manuelb5466 no, but that's my point - Oryx's ship is not just a small insignificant f-ing manifested in physical space Throne World of his, it als had Oryx in it, controlling and shooting magic and stuff. An autonomous pyramid is not on that level imo. Given how it's pretty infiltratable - not just by us, but by normal Cabal with their light/darkness suppressing divices, I would imagine that this enemy, although tough af, is not inpenetrable or immune to weapons, and Maras glowy-thingies are arguably our strongest weapon in open combat. And I also believe, she can theoretically do the thingies by herself - the tech-witches seemed to just feed her energy in that battle above Saturn. She would, like, die probably, but she has a throneworld, so she can afford some dying every now and then.
@@manuelb5466 The techeuns were bonded to 1 harbinger each. Mara likely summoned the other 4 herself (she’s summoned harbingers on her own during season of the hunt). Also, it was never their plan to destroy the dreadnaught with the Harbingers... In Tyrannocide V, it stated that they were needed to give Mara the “gate” she needed to enter Oryx’s throne world. In The Coven grimoire card it also mentions that the Harbingers would “burrow deep” into the dreadnaught and “have children of their own.” (Those “children” likely being the Harbingers that Mara summoned during season of the hunt).
An additional thought. I think we're finally in a timeline where Eris doesn't betray us. ThErisapist says that much to me. In helping others she's helping herself overcome her traumas. She's in a mental space where she can focus and not fall victim to the powers she works with as is implied with the other timelines. She has more attachment to us. Hell her attachment to "Rat" may be the key stone to this change. By the way I think Rat is Drifter. I ship them, what of it? In at least one dark future he dies cold and alone on Europa. He survived this time as one of the so called "Dark Vanguard." For some reason I wonder at her interactions with Fenchurch too being different. Mara has no reason to trust Eris yet continues to do so. Why? Maybe the hope that this time will be different? I think Maria's hopes and trust will be rewarded.
It feels like Mara destroying a Black Fleet ship would result from one of two things: an accidental introduction of something that forced the ship to self-destruct, or something so dangerous, taxing, or experimental that more research and investigation is required. In either case? It's not something to rely on, but it shows Mara's ingenuity, poise, resolve, and ability and man oh man am I glad she's helping the Vanguard.
Back in Forsaken Mara was speaking with an emissary of the Nine about moving an asset into the grave of the first fleet during one of our visits, and on one of the tables in her throne room there was a hologram depicting one of the pyramid ships. Well the pyramids are here, and that little plot point where they felt we needed to be a fly on the wall hasn’t come up again since so far as I know.
The Sleepless rocket launcher lore says that Sjur Eido dreamed of Mara destroying a pyramid ship with her bare hands, maybe it's something related to the topic
If she can destroy a Pyramid ship it would be unwise to do it again until the time is right. One missing ship is an anomaly, Mara is probably waiting for the fleet to amass in Sol. She also probably needs more intel on the Pyramids to make the weapon more reliable and easier to reproduce, which explains her interest in the pyramid in Savathun's throneworld.
Byf, you rock! As a long time viewer, but someone who rarely touches the game anymore, I want to say thank you for all the videos. They keep me updated on the lore, and Destiny lore is some of my favorite (but not enough to keep me slogging through the grindy gameplay loop anymore, sadly.) One thing I want to bring up is a bit of lore that has been in the back of my mind ever since we first discovered the Pyramid on Luna, and that has been made even more relevant now thanks to this video. That bit of lore is the Awoken rocket launcher Sleepless' lore tab. It covers a dream Sjur Eido had of Mara "cracking a black triangle in two with her bare hands." I believe it's been hinted at the the Awoken have some level of prescience, especially in relation to their dreams. In my mind, this provides more evidence, although admittedly somewhat insubstantial evidence, that Mara has indeed destroyed, at the very least, a single Pyramid ship. Also, in a minor but related tangent going off of the rest of the lore tab for Sleepless', the possibility of seeing Sjur Eido resurrected has me very excited. I'm of the mind that she's not actually dead per se, and that we will *fingers crossed* see her in the future. And wouldn't it be an amazing story moment to see (or more likely read about in a lore tab somewhere) Mithrax introduce his daughter to her namesake? Or watch as Sjur meets Crow and is dumbfounded as to why Prince Uldren has no recognition of her whatsoever? (That is, unless Savathun was able and willing to return certain memories of the Distributary to him.) Or to see if Mara would be visibly and genuinely elated at having her lover back, or would try to use her as just another pawn? Or, on the lighter side, even hear some humorous bit of throwaway dialogue about Sjur wanting her bow back? Regardless of if this ever gets discussed in a future video, you bet you'll still have my viewership!
The concept that had been bothering me for awhile, that the first bit of the video helped to show, is when the Pyramid positioned above Io began to (at least in my observation) appeared as if it were "Drinking" the remnants of Light that had been burrowed into Io's Core. This is also somewhat explained back in Season of Arrival, as Eris states that "life across Io is starting to recede", as if all the Traveler's Life giving energies were being re-absorbed. My theory to the "Witness will Drink the Light" is part of the old proverb "There cannot exist Darkness with Light" leading me to speculate that The Witness does not seeking to extinguish the Light, but to Acquire it so no opposition to the the Final Shape exists. This is all my own Speculations of course, but I am always in awe listening to your hypothesis on the Lore and your own Interpretation. Thank you so much for being a peer to which shares their love of Destiny Lore!
If she can bring down a Pyramid, but she's the only one who can, it's probably best that she doesn't tell anyone. That knowledge getting out paints a *huge* target on her, because she is now an actual threat that *must* be either eliminated by The Witness, or otherwise countered. Therefore, even if she did do it, she needs to keep her cards close to her chest. The less that the enemy knows that you have a particular weapon, the more you can use it against them, and make each strike with that weapon count.
@Urazz There is something The Witness *doesn't* know: Can she do it again? She hasn't done it since. Even when it would have been advantageous to do so. Is it because she chose not to, or because she can't?
Allow me to pull a quote from "I Love Bees" (that old Halo 2 ARG), about World War II: Herzog: --The Germans were winning. They used an elaborate encryption scheme, the British cracked it, and then they had a problem. Lieutenant: ...After they cracked the code... Herzog: That's right. Now the Brits knew what the Germans meant to do, but if they acted on that knowledge-- Lieutenant: --The Germans would realize the code had been broken. Herzog: Now what would you do if someone had cracked your code? Lieutenant: I'd make a new one. Herzog: Full marks! Lieutenant: Thank you, sir. Herzog: So they had to a terrible calculus. Had to decide how much they could use the intelligence, and how many times they would just have to stand there and watch a German operation they knew they could have stopped. This is exactly the problem that Mara Sov has now, if she still has the capability to take down Pyramids. She probably only has one or two more shots with this. She has to make each shot count.
If you ever get a bit of a lull in the lore news (probably never), it’d be cool to have a video going over all the real-life inspiration that’s used for Destiny lore. For instance, the name The Black Fleet…
Do you think the message sent by Eris was using Deepsight? Imprinting the memory of something into an object? Savathun does this with her crystal prison to show Crow his past, we got all those trinkets with the collectors edition, the Altars of Reflection and Lisbon 13 with his cloak. Would be cool to learn if she has this ability as her own power.
Didn't Sjur Eido also have a vision of Mara splitting a pyramid in half? I think it comes up somewhere in the piles of Dreaming City lore. EDIT: Found it. It's the lore tab of Sleepless.
Does anyone think this sounds similar to riven? Mara has shown before that she likes having power that no one else has so that she can have a hidden upper hand. I believe that she did destroy one and is keeping it hidden because she wants to have us needing her instead of it being the other way around.
I just want to say that byfs videos have become an integral part of my destiny 2 experience and that I'm grateful for the time and effort dude puts in everytime, much respect!
Just FYI vocal audio spot on I’ve always had to turn your videos volume way up and then in between music and/or ads having deafening sound. Awesome improvement love your videos and storytelling.
I love that “She is their Lucifer, their Melek Taus, their Feanor” line being mentioned in the lore there. It’s so easy sometimes to forget that Destiny is still supposed to take place in our world.
Something I've always wondered is "What would happen if every hunter in existence shot a Celestial Nighthawk Golden Gun shot at the same spot?" and I think the pyramid ships are the perfect way to find out.
In the lore for the Sleepless rocket launcher, Mara does indeed destroy a Black Pyramid after Uldren/Crow tells her a word. However this is a dream that Sjur Eido had and she wakes up shortly after.
You know mara did have a wish granting dragon and she does have an ahahmkara egg as well im not a lore nut but wouldnt it of been possible that one of the main reasons savathun attacked the dreaming city was because of that dragon being such a threat i know the witness is more powerful than we can imagine but even if selfish and usually causes chaos with its wishes it grants at the end of the day a wish granting dragon is well a wish granting dragon thats still a pretty big threat and not just to light bearers but also to those who wield the darkness whats not to say mara found a way to harness the power of riven combining it with her own power
Speaking of Oryx, I have a question that has been burning a hole in my mind. Why haven't we encountered a Nightmare of Oryx? I questioned that heavily when Shadowkeep launched, but never got answers. Now that we have gone through this Season, with all the info we learned in Witch Queen, I feel that question is more important now than ever. Why is it that Oryx, the Taken King, one of the greatest foes we have ever faced, does not appear before ANYONE as a Nightmare?
I would have Said it's because he wasn't dead untill skolas ended up being not dead. There is the possibility it is purely gameplay related though and bungie didn't want to go through the effort of recreating him and his Ai in a way similar to d1 only to never use it again. This is of course unlike the other nightmare d1 bosses that are rather standard.
@@jacob-2271 Ghaul is pretty similar to Oryx in terms of AI movement (his Shade version anyway). So they probably could have brought him back a while ago, they probably just chose to wait until KF returns.
Mara holds a considerable fear of the Witness, she made that quite clear to us when she helped us create that worm grenade launcher. We know she plays the long game so it stands to reason she'd let this rumor persist, she couldn't destroy Oryx's ship and Asher confirmed external attacks can be halted on the pyriamids before they cause damage. I think Mara could but there are a few requirments, Mara has to be at a certain point within the ship, and it comes at a cost of some kind
I think she CAN destroy them, but doing so is incredibly costly in a way we don't fully comprehend, for her. Costly enough that it isn't worth doing even if they threaten her directly. Each ship holds the power of things like The Upended which can level worlds. Destroying those without disarming them first could be catastrophic for everything within a pretty wide radius, and since the pyramids still in our grasp are effectively parked at our front door...............
I wonder, since the vision that Fenchurch got of Eris and Mara in that debris field was indeed real, if that same thing happened to the Guardian when they touched the unknown artifact in the Luna Pyramid. It seems eerily similar, Fenchurch gets transported to that exact moment and Eris looks at him and says "pathetic" in Russian. When the Guardian touches the artifact, they get transported to the Black Garden and are confronted by (presumably) the Witness as their own self.
That figure at the end of the Shadowkeep campaign was very likely the Witness appearing as a dark mirror of the player. It used pretty much the same speech pattern, speaking of itself as "we" and some people noticed that it's hand gestures were similar to the ones the Witness used in the final cutscene of Witchqueen.
One of the guys in my clan put me onto your channel. I'm very excited because I'm eager to learn about the lore of Destiny. I just started playing in Feb. 2022.
Regarding if Mara can destroy a Pyramid ship and why she might or might not, recall her dialogue in the Parasite mission. Her assault on the Eris 136199 Pyramid may well have been when she had the incident with the Witness that she described and that shook her so heavily. She may well be afraid to face them again.
Also, I believe that the term AI-COM/XBLK is referring to Failsafe - "XBLK" = Exodus Black. If that's true, it suggests that she may be about to become a much more significant character in a seasonal story soon. Some of the D2 legacy characters like her, Devrim, and Hawthorne have been largely left behind in the last couple years of storytelling, and I think it would be cool to see them brought back up to speed with the more currently relevant characters.
I'm seeing Mara Sov's identifier 'VIP 0704' as a reference to July 4th, Independence Day here in the US. From everything we've seen and read of Mara, she genuinely works independently of the Light or Dark. If this wasn't the actual reason for that specific number having been given to Mara Sov, it's one hell of a coincidence 🤔
Thinking back to all the Mara vs. Pyramid references, there's the lore entry where Sjur Eido wakes up from a dream where Mara "stood atop a great black triangle" acting as foreshadowing, Mara's final Queen's Court message where she references Elsie acting as a prelude, and the Invitation of the Nine where the Nine state "the clever one is in peril" acting as real time development. The only plot hole I see is how did this fight happen if Mara was lost in the Ascendant Plain until Season of the Lost, unless I missed something.
Ok one question. (I started in beyond light so my timeline may be off) if this happed before the moon pyramid and that was our first pyramid then how did Eris know what it was?
A thought is what if Mara does what the Pyramid does but on itself. The Pyramid, paracausal it may be, is in physical space. Mara then plops that bit of existance somewhere else, perhaps in a lower plane of existance. The only alternative I can think of is a reverse Oryx where instead of unfolding an Ascendant plane onto the physical, it "unfolds" the physical into the metaphysical. This new metaphysical space then traps this Pyramid in an inbetween of real and not-real planes and is effectively rendered powerless. I think the pyramid in savathun's throne world is a testament to how pyramids can be put into different planes of existance. In summary, destruction not in the sense of smashing it with a weapon like the upended... but almost a denial of its existance (Mara simply makes them not real since she says so).
Correct me if i am wrong "Патетическая" was translated as pathetic? As far as I remember pathetic has a different meaning and it's translation is "Жалкий". "Патетическая" according to some online dictionaries(rare word , never used it) means passionate, excited, full of pathos. And also its used to describe a she. Like "Патетический" is for he "Патетическая" for she "Патетическое" for it (my guess its about Mara maybe?)
I was expecting to hear something about the 'asset' that Mara worked with the 9 on that was deployed to the edge of the system.... I still have no idea what that was. Is there some lore elsewhere that talks about that and what it did/failed to do?
Ikora’s response and analysis of Mara’s affinity for secrecy is perhaps the most accurate. But, thanks to the dialogue from the “Of Queens and Worms” exotic quest, I believe the Witness showed Mara who the players of the game are: it, and the entity of the Traveler (if it has one). The fear, doubt, and anxiety in Mara’s voice as the quest goes on is something to be concerned about. If even someone with an iron-will like Mara can be scared, we should be VERY worried about the Witness. I feel that Savathun and the Witness showed Mara that she is merely a pawn that believes herself to be a player. Though Ikora is right about one thing, Mara may be even more determined to have things end differently in this timeline, especially with the knowledge, in every other, her sacrifices were in vain. She will not accept the cycle of death spurred by the time loop and the Traveler and Witness’ war to continue. Though, I fear secrecy may not work with the Witness’ prying ears and eyes. It has many Disciples, and the Egregore is another of its tools that it uses to spy and corrupt.
I think Mara destroying a black fleet ship is possibly her experimenting with a new power. We know that Mara is incredibly powerful, but I think on top of her secrecy and immense planning and knowledge of the universe, she has actually taken a lot of Oryx's power for herself. Firstly, we know that when we kill Oryx, that we refuse to take the Taken throne, as Toland told us. We also know that the dreadnaught's weapon Oryx uses during the battle of Saturn is Oryx's throne world being extended out into the real world and his destructive will destroying anything that comes into its path. We also know that Mara came back through the ascendant realm, using Oryx's throne world weapon to enter his throne world and wait for her time to begin taking over and she seems to have done that. As mentioned in the lore, Mara uses some metaphysical ability gained from Oryx. What's to say that she has learned of this power of turning the throne world onto the real world? Perhaps Mara has been keeping this a secret, because if we knew she was using Darkness powers around Shadowkeep time, Earth and most of humanity may have treated her as an enemy instead. Maybe she has kept this power under wraps until now. The black fleet is here and she has decided that she wants to experiment how Oryx's powers she has gained, as well as her existing formidable power that she has tried to use it to see how far it'll go. I suspect she's used it, but found that she's unable to control/restrain this power and while it did destroy a black fleet ship, Mara is scared that she doesn't understand it and worries that she'll unintentionally kill other people or herself using this power. That's possibly why she hasn't tried to destroy another ship. Perhaps Mara is going to show us the darkness power "to move worlds" as Savathun told us we would soon be able to do.
She passed out from the power it took to attack the dreadnought and that was with help from her most powerful advisors (I forget their names). I think attempting to attack a pyramid would kill her with the backlash she’d receive from her power output
Hiyo, Byf I want to address the fact, that word "Патетическая" does not mean "pathetic" in Russian(despite sounding almost as English word "pathetic"). from my (and google's) knowledge, it's actually an adjective, that goes from Greek word "pathetikos" and can have meanings as: thrilling sensitive, sensuous passionate filled with pathos As for why Eris may say that is out of my grasp, cuz it may very well be a mistake on Bungie's end, to choose not quite fitting word, or just that we don't have context of the situation to understand it yet. Hope we will get an explanation on that, cuz so far it really looks like a mistake. Still, as always, thx for your hard work
I like the details for the VIP numbers pertaining to our character and their first appearance. (2014, Destiny launch) Same as for Oryx's number being 2015, coinciding with the The Taken King launch.
Wow, was not expecting the name of Feanor to appear here! This apparently means that it is canon in the Destiny universe that J.R.R. Tolkien's works survived the first Collapse in some way and that Ikora has read the Silmarillion :D
So an important point I feel needs bringing up is it seems mara died whilst doing whatever she did, so that's a possible reason why she's not doing it left right and centre, after all I would avoid death wherever possible. I imagine that part of the reason we're not going to know whether she destroyed a pyramid or not is that when one does get destroyed on screen, bungie will want the player to be involved, either doing whatever mara did inside one, or assisting mara in destroying it, perhaps protecting her from what killed her last time, or clearing a path for her to get to where she needs to go to destroy it
I think Mara has the power to do it again, but it requires the aura of Oryx to sneak inside (which she possibly can no longer use) and requires her to sacrafice herself in the attempt, which given the compromised nature of her throne world is very likely a risk every time it happens. (Plus throne world or not, dying cannot be a pleasant experience.) I wonder also now since her run in with the witness directly if she is even less willing to risk death, in depth the witness can reach out to people, and it's possible that this is how Mara made olcontact before, and judging by her reaction in the parasite mission, I don't think she's willing to risk a second encounter for the time being.
Why Destroy the black fleet when we could control the black fleet our guardian probably could with the sheer power we have being strongest guardian and having countless "gods" heads on our belt i just wonder what the physical manifestation of the traveler is or whoever is behind it (I cant remember the name)
Honestly, I think it may have taken a lot out of Mara. I mean, the video did say she died and Eris had to revive her through her Throne World. Or, it could also be that it WAS just a one time thing...at least for now. At least until Mara finds a way to use Guardians to blow them up.
I think it’s important to note that whatever happened on the pyramid in orbit of the planet Eris, it killed Mara. Not just that but brining her back, at least to the spot she died, was taking and dangerous for Mara and Eris both. It’s possible that Mara did destroy a pyramid and could replicate the process. But doing so would be to high a risk.
Personally, I am becoming fixated on the entry which vaguely describes a trip to the Dreadnaught, and the acquisition of some power which disturbed and seemingly angered Eris Morn. My guess is fairly obvious - Mara Sov laid claim to whatever dormant power remained within Oryx's throne world, and likely came out of that place looking and acting differently. Eris Morn might have seen this as some sort of betrayal, given that Oryx and that dark power he wields were such a horror to Eris. In addition, this unique and temporary infusion of power might be what it takes to destroy a single ship. Here's my theory. We, the Guardians of Earth, will have to employ the exact same "technologies" against the Witness. Not only the ability to become infused with stolen power, but the necessity of death and resurrection, the type of which can only be provided by the protection of a throne world. WE need a throne world, one of our own or perhaps to lay claim to the light-blessed throne space of Savathun, in order to survive the war against the Witness. Mara Sov died destroying a single pyramid - perhaps that's just part of the game.
In that other timeline it seemed like she needed Rasputin in addition to her own power to destroy the ship so maybe she provides the armor piercing round to Rasputins cannon. Add Eris' close knowledge of the darkness and hive magic and thats a pretty powerful weapon
I think if we can bypass the paracausal field around those ships then they could probably be very easily destroyed. Easiest way to play the psychological warfare game would be for the darkness to come across as invincible on the outside but may just be super squishy inside. Think of it this way, you can put a bowl over a lamp which will create darkness but the lamp is not snuffed out but just covered. Removed said cover and you get a face full of light. Similar to how illusions work.
18:34 "she is their lucifer, their melek taus or their Fëanor" Bruh Fëanor is from the silamrilian. Good to know some of Tolkien's work survived in Destiny 2
I believe that maybe she depleted her power and needs time to recharge, just like any warrior she need to learn to use her ability to the point where she doesn't loose as much power there for giving her a ability for a second attack, unless she secretly took the light and doesn't want anyone to know.!!? 🤔 🧐
Okay, hear me out byf. (Big tinfoil hat moment) given the fact that the witness is on its way, and Mara still having so much mystery to her, what if she's lights harbinger? Around the time of Forsaken we heard *something* speak to us on Io when we mediated in the light. What if she was contacted by that same being at some point? She's mentioned as being like Lucifer, and that ideology is fascinating. In the lore that came from the messages from the artifact on Luna in Shadowkeep, when the witness is describing the Gardener's changing of the game, the allowing of life to continue existing despite being destroyed it describes it as being evil. Mara's actions always seem to be based around survival. What if the entity behind the traveler sees the similarity between itself and her and chose to give her a power the we don't have? Or, simply the ability to use the energies that made her awoken in the first place in tandem. A silly, unnecessarily deep thought, but just an idea.
If anyone could I would believe it to be Mara. But the fact it also killed her and sent her back to her throne world may have caused some disruption between her and the throne world making it even more risky to do it once again. Either that or she now lacks the energy to do it in succession and she needs time to regain that power.
In one of the cut scenes or lore, didn't she say she wanted to destroy the traveler? Or shoot it out of the sky? I could be wrong, but I swear I heard it. I believe her an Eris are going to be either our downfall or our key to victory. Both of them know way more than their saying, along with the exo stranger. How does she move from timeline to timeline? Hopefully Bungie clears a lot of this up.
She said during one of the queen’s court visits that she once had the chance to destroy the traveler. But that balance is also needed in the universe (both light and dark must coexist).
If Mara can destroy pyramid ships, I imagine it's neither easy nor without considerable risk to herself. I wouldn't be surprised if she were keeping a low profile to avoid a focused retaliation from the forces of The Witness.
I'd also imagine that even if the considerable risk to herself or others - either in retaliation or in immediate threat of harm from performing the action that led to the Pyramid's destruction - was acceptable, and she can indeed do it again, that perhaps not using it immediately is the best course of action.
If your opponent believes you can only perform one such miracle move, and that you've already spent it, they relax or ease thinking that the enemy had but a single nuclear weapon, so to speak. Surely if they had a second, they'd have used it by now.
If she were to use it again (assuming she can) before some vital moment, she would be tipping her hand that her one-off-shot was replicatable, and that makes her an immediate threat which while possibly valuable as a distraction is not worth the cost if Mara and her abilities are lost before they're most needed.
Alternatively, Mara can replicate this move with ease, and the knowledge that the Pyramids and their Master cannot adapt is something of a deterrent to the Witness, for the time being. A classic stalemate via MAD. If she acts first, the Pyramids move in retaliation and cause incalculable damage before the other pieces on the board are ready to move in defense. If the Pyramids act first, Mara retaliates and does untold damage to the Black Fleet before its allies are fully positioned for defense or offense.
But keeping it all vague means nobody but herself knows. There's no possibility of an intelligence leak if the only possible point of leak is yourself, and you ain't saying jack shit to nobody. That's always been Mara's play, tell nobody and nobody tells. It's worked so far.
Mara, you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make.
She literally died in the attempt and had to be resurrected in the Shattered Throne.
I mean, she did die
Likely similar to what happened with oryx. Incredibly risky and could be a huge beacon for the darkness, if there's a massive surge in paracausal energy
I like how Fenchurch puts all this effort into using their assigned code names and keeping objective description and his personal interpretation separate and Ikora is just like ‘so anyway, Savathun and Mara Sov-‘
I would assume it’s a bypass for redacting information; his reports may be shared further, but her responses are just for his eyes.
I like how the VIP numbers for the guardian and Oryx reference the years in which they first appeared
Same lmao
Do you think that the moment where Mara went EVA to the pyramid is the moment where the Witness offered to make her a disciple? Mara did say she had recieved the offer but turned it down.
Maybe the destruction of the pyramid had something to do with her refusal.
I could see that being the case. The Witness gives her brief control of the ship to try to entice her, only for Mara to make the ship destroy itself to punctuate her refusal. As if to say "Here's what I think of your 'Final Shape'".
It's never confirmed but I imagine it might well have been.
@@TheDragonman55 Which also means to destroy them, we have to take control of the empty ones or use them against other ships.
Mara so would do something like that
@@AxisChurchDevotee well we got 2 and maybe 3 its unknown if the throne world one is still operable
My guess is that she didn’t destroy it intentionally. Even if she did, an important detail is that she may have entered the ship. Remember how Asher experimented with chucking nukes at the pyramid externally? It could be different from the inside. If we are to look at the pyramids as having ‘armor plating’, we may be able to draw upon examples in the real world. For instance: during WWII, some countries used special techniques when building tanks. In the case of the British Churchill tanks, the exterior was tempered in a way that made it stronger. As a result, if you try to cut that armor from the outside in, it’s incredibly difficult. But if you try to cut it from the inside out, it’s not any more difficult than your average chunk of metal of the same thickness (mostly). So it’s somewhat plausible that the pyramid ship could have been destroyed from the inside out.
I think you're on to something that she may not have (entirely) done it intentionally.
Knowing Mara's cool, measured, methodical approach and demeanor, I have a hard time imagining she was just like, "Hey Eris, wanna see if I can blow up a Pyramid?" Mara wouldn't make that kind of move without seeing what kind of reaction might follow. She's arrogant and overconfident much of the time (refer to being bested in the Battle of Saturn by Oryx and then again in the pact with Savathun), but she rarely acts without considering the consequences (the problem being that she seems to just overestimate herself). Attacking a pyramid ship, be it head on or under the disguise of Oryx or whatever, is a BIG move to make, even for her.
I wonder if she didn't enter the ship and was confronted by The Witness, which lead to her lashing out in a way she may have not been aware was possible?
@@C.M.Giordano i could also imagine her death having been the cause of the pyramids destruction. Correct me if im wrong, but i THINK we have other reports of Mara actually dying. Maybe uppon her death, all the paracausal energy she has acces to at the time gets realeased at once, and that might have been what nuked the pyramid.
@@C.M.Giordano So basically the joke/meme of "It was a calculated risk, but boy am I bad at math." LOL
@@C.M.Giordano she wasn’t vested in the battle of Saturn. That was her plan the entire time.
Technically face hardening of armor has been done since pre ww1 on armored naval vessels (cruisers and bigger), and afaik almost every tank and armored vehicle has face hardened armor. The reason that you harden the outward facing part of the armor is more to do with the impact ballistics of steel armor and projectiles.
Since the face (outward bit) of the armor is hardened, it’s less likely to cause the shell to either shatter, or deflect away from the armor, rather than “catch” the armor and cause the shell to turn closer to perpendicular to the armor.
TLDR: armor is face hardened because it makes shells more likely to bounce off without penetrating.
Woah, last time I was this early for a video, I was still a wee lad playing TTK on my PS3.
the good old days
I forgot D1 launched on PS3 lmao
The good ole' days mate.
Things were far easier back then...
You too? Haha
Eris wanting to show her scar made me chuckle. Seems like something she would do to be genuine, yet almost open up in a dark humor type of way.
I can imagine two scenarios.
Either, this is the moment where Mara was offered the role of Disciple in the Pyramid, refused it, and the fact that the Darkness' philosophy of "all things turn to its principles, it is inherently a truth of the universe, etc etc" was turned down by someone so paracausally powerful essentially was the same as a divide by zero error for the Pyramid.
Or, the only way to affect or destroy a Pyramid is by getting physically inside of it and doing damage. While I think the former is the more correct answer, the fact that the Cabal could get into the Pyramid of Europa and could mess with some of the tech to a reasonable degree, as well as Rhulk's Upender (located within the Pyramid) backfired thanks to Savathun playing the Uno reverse card on it and it cracked, makes me think that the surface of a Pyramid is as indestructible as an event horizon, but the inside is the weakness. (Good luck getting in though)
If the haul is somehow breached, the pyramid would catastrophically buckle because of those topological differences.
@@jimmysuros6302 much like the ruined Pyramid in Savathun's Throneworld.
@@MelancholicBodhisattva yep. And you can kind of justify this via PV=nRT. Changing volume changes energy
Destroy Pyramid ships with this one neat trick The Witness doesn't want you to know!
Rick kackis when lightfall comes out
I clicked on this to find out, didn't get any real info. Total scam.
Disciples hate this hack!
Interesting how Ikora referred to Mara as parts of a bomb. It makes me think about how we may use the Bomb Logic to counter the Black Fleet. In fact, this year's seasonal content all seems to be leading up to that conclusion. Our alliances with the Cabal and Eliknsi allow us to accomplish things that guardians could not accomplish alone, with the difference compounding and growing exponentially as more parts are added.
bomb logic lmao
"EVERYTHING MUST EXPLODE"
@@Dragonfyre. Shaxx would love bomb logic
@@cybercephalopod3913 YOU. ARENT. THROWING. ENOUGH. GRENADES.
@@Dragonfyre. the bomb logic is an actual thing in lore 😅
We defeated oryx with it
@@Dragonfyre. FLAMING HAMMERS, THAT SHOOT GRENADES!
Something I feel is worth noting about the initial lore entry is it was released with the Stolen Intelligence books back in Season of the Drifter. I.E. before Eris found the Pyramid on the Moon. This incident could very well have alerted Eris to the Lunar Pyramid's presence.
I vaguely remember a lore card from Foresaken describing a future scenario (so a premonition of some kind) where Mara splits a pyramid ship in two. Of course, it's just a premonition but given how powerful she is and now there's questions of whether she's already done it, I wouldn't be surprised if she actually can.
You're thinking of the lore tab for the Sleepless rocket launcher. It has Sjur Eido telling Mara about a dream she just had where Mara was on a "black triangle" (obviously a Pyramid ship) with another woman, possibly Eris, and that Mara broke the "triangle" in half with her bare hands.
@@frostwendigo7646
What if it was just a Ghost with an exotic Pyramid Skin
I joke but what if
@@mtnd02.06 Man I've wanted one of those ever since we got the Traveler shell in Season of Arrivals.
@@frostwendigo7646 I always thought that was very interesting how Sjur said that she was dead, or more likely lost, I personally think that she's out there somewhere
@@frostwendigo7646 Maybe we will, in Lightfall.
Can't wait to listen to this one! I work 12 hour shifts and just discovered your videos. I can't tell you how awesome it is to have this interesting content to entertain me all day. I dove headfirst into destiny about a month ago and I'm sad it took me this long to find your lore videos, as I would have understood so much more going into the witch queen
Welcome to Destiny, New Light.
Are you playing solo or do you have a fireteam or clan?
Welcome to Destiny and hope you enjoy yourself and Byf is a good way to delve in. :)
Welcome guardian
Mara sov is an absolute badass and easily imo our most powerful ally. As long as she remains our ally....
Love your work byf massive fan since d1 days much love and respect.
I loved her since day 1 i always knew from the start that she would be the most major character in the game
I love it when the Destiny lore (or any game for that matter) references Tolkien's work. Like the Castlevania franchise, it has some deep references to the legendarium, especially Symphony of the Night.
You also noticed Ikora mentioning Feanor?
Me too! I was quite startled when I heard Feanor's name
Yeah I was pleasantly surprised
God, I wish I was that Pyramid. I mean, what?!?!
🤨🤨
📸
Yes officer, this one right here.
Oh, you're going to jail.
Transmat firing!
I think she did. In the lore tab for the Sleepless rocket launcher Sjur had a dream of Mara destroying a black pyramid while standing with her brother and Elsie Bray. Sjur in her usual casual manner got distracted from the dream when it was clear Mara wasn't paying full attention. So Mara's capability to do so has been kinda foreshadowed since Forsaken
Damn, Ikora just casually providing a comprehensive deconstruction of Mara's character and motives in that lore tab.
It's actually a very good way to help people understand why Mara is the way she is instead of just hating her because her methods are... Irritating sometimes.
I hear ya but I still wanna yeet her into the architects with a well placed eager edge swing
Tbf as the player we practically have been essential for every major move that has insured her plans go well without us acting they would all be dead at this point. Hence her insistence that every thing need be a secret with us feels like personal distrust after some time.
@Alberto Zalon It’s called being wise which Mara is… she isn’t insistent that everything be secret to *us* she insists they be in general. So taking that personally is kinda weird. Not to mention considering we let Savathun run around in the city for months feeding her intel and granting authority seems like the pretty damn good reason that Maras methods are sound.
@@Gwynbleidd_117Besides, she has contingency plans for key people, including herself(?), just in case.
Something that really bugs me at the back of my mind about all of this is that Mara doesn't strike me as someone who would drag Eris along with her without a good reason. She spent god knows how long alone doing all sorts of incredibly dangerous things for her own ends, calculating every move and knowing her enemy as thoroughly as possible before doing anything. I feel like if Mara knew a way to destroy a ship, she would just go off and try it herself and make sure a report gets back to Petra and/or Eris. She wouldn't have just on a whim gone off with Eris to give something a go on the off chance. She must have had a solid plan and I feel like that plan didn't quite go the way she intended it to.
My guess is that Mara needed Eris for a key component of the attack - possibly her Hive magic - and feels genuine remorse for what happened to Eris in the wake of it, and perhaps doesn't want to use this particular method for fear of losing Eris
I love how lore heavy this expansion is
To be honest I always sensed that Mara Sov was far more powerful than she let on since the beginning in D1.
Like when she called on the Guardians to take care of Skolas, I didn't hesitate to hunt him down. Just as much so when she ordered his execution in the Prison of Elders. The Hildian Seeker I got from it was a nice bonus I absolutely cherished until Ghaul blew it up. I really miss that ship, especially when it was a gift from Mara.
If she wants my grip around the Witness's throat, that's an absolute win in my book.
Yeah, plus we never did see the full scene of her trapping Savathun in the Crystal. Maybe Bungie is leaving her power vague for a reason.
"I do not comprehend them either. I traveled among the Jovians for years, in their dominion. But I do not know the Nine. You, Mara Sov... you are the only one who bargains with them. You are the only one who has foreseen their role in the game. You keep your successes secret, so the world only knows your mistakes. No wonder I underestimated you."
^ Skolas to Mara in The Kell lore tab. Mara has always hidden her triumphs. We only see the mistakes she makes because she wants us to.
With both the ship on the moon and on Europe, they're somewhat inactive unlike the one in savathuns throne world which had a witnesses deciple on board so maybe its an accessibility issue.
Logically it makes sense to deal with imminent threats first rather than inactive ones that can be studied.
Perhaps wrestling control away from the ships is easier should they be inactive and if so, need to be taken from the witnesses grasp before destruction can begin
The ship could have also self-destructed if Mara came too close to learning some of its secrets (might explain Eris' comment "pathetic"). But it's not the only ship to be damaged given the one spit open in the throne world.
3 things that I want to talk about real quick:
1. Byf, your work is amazing, and I enjoy listening to it whenever I want to just vibe and channel my Inner Warlock
2. Who is getting a SCP vibe with these Hidden reports? I don't know why, but they just do whenever they have the constant numbers instead of them just using the names of the people.
3.I get the feeling that Eris was using the Planet Eris as a scapegoat for the nearby planet, and decided to use that, and the actual place was in code to the Message from Cayde a while back. Enceladus. And whatever IS on Enceladus could be something that the 3D Doritos tried to get. Mara and Moondust got there first, and the shrapnel of the ship they possibly blew up and the planet they were on was the cause of the gash on Eris' leg. Whatever is on Enceladus, I hope we get to know soon, or at least Petra tells us what it is. Sorry about my long theory there. Stay safe Guardians!
Great vid as always, ty Byf!
Sure she could, and likely did, perhaps a smaller one - there are always some sort of convoy ships on large-scale depictions of the fleet. She could use those glowy-balls, that are sorta sentient or something, the ones she used on Oryx's ship. Given that the pyramids are artaficial constructs with a centralized guiding intellegence and not that big of an autonomy, it'd be reasonable to assume, one unit won't be as invulnurable as the inverted Trone World of a ship with it's master on board and actively in control of it, so the glowy-balls could do stuff to it imo. Since there is no mention of any tachions there, she might've attempted it on her own - so Eris then had to save her ass.
This might be a small hint to a final showdown event, when everyone would be doing this stuff one way or the other and we - the mentally-challenged mute demigod - charge the lead ship. Given the size of the fleet it seems inevitable that we're looking at another sci-fi cliche in making, you know, the Phantom Menace Independance Day kind, kill the mothership - save the day, "disa droids bom-bad broken". But as an excuse for others to do something and not help us to fight thew Witness on the top of the biggest pyramid, they'd have to be killin lesser advancing ships one-by-one.
She needed her Techeuns to do that attack. It destroyed the fleet but not Oryx's ship. If they didn't destroy the Dreadnaught, they might not be able to destroy a pyramid ship either
@@manuelb5466 no, but that's my point - Oryx's ship is not just a small insignificant f-ing manifested in physical space Throne World of his, it als had Oryx in it, controlling and shooting magic and stuff. An autonomous pyramid is not on that level imo. Given how it's pretty infiltratable - not just by us, but by normal Cabal with their light/darkness suppressing divices, I would imagine that this enemy, although tough af, is not inpenetrable or immune to weapons, and Maras glowy-thingies are arguably our strongest weapon in open combat. And I also believe, she can theoretically do the thingies by herself - the tech-witches seemed to just feed her energy in that battle above Saturn. She would, like, die probably, but she has a throneworld, so she can afford some dying every now and then.
@Naveen KV yeah. And generally be on our side. All we need an might actually get is "good" Vex. And get Taniks on our side, just for the meme of it)
@@manuelb5466 The techeuns were bonded to 1 harbinger each. Mara likely summoned the other 4 herself (she’s summoned harbingers on her own during season of the hunt).
Also, it was never their plan to destroy the dreadnaught with the Harbingers... In Tyrannocide V, it stated that they were needed to give Mara the “gate” she needed to enter Oryx’s throne world.
In The Coven grimoire card it also mentions that the Harbingers would “burrow deep” into the dreadnaught and “have children of their own.” (Those “children” likely being the Harbingers that Mara summoned during season of the hunt).
An additional thought. I think we're finally in a timeline where Eris doesn't betray us. ThErisapist says that much to me. In helping others she's helping herself overcome her traumas. She's in a mental space where she can focus and not fall victim to the powers she works with as is implied with the other timelines. She has more attachment to us. Hell her attachment to "Rat" may be the key stone to this change. By the way I think Rat is Drifter. I ship them, what of it? In at least one dark future he dies cold and alone on Europa. He survived this time as one of the so called "Dark Vanguard." For some reason I wonder at her interactions with Fenchurch too being different. Mara has no reason to trust Eris yet continues to do so. Why? Maybe the hope that this time will be different? I think Maria's hopes and trust will be rewarded.
Considering that she trolled Savathiccs favorite gummy worm. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised.
I like to think that Byf is an in game vendor that explains the world to new lights
It feels like Mara destroying a Black Fleet ship would result from one of two things: an accidental introduction of something that forced the ship to self-destruct, or something so dangerous, taxing, or experimental that more research and investigation is required. In either case? It's not something to rely on, but it shows Mara's ingenuity, poise, resolve, and ability and man oh man am I glad she's helping the Vanguard.
Back in Forsaken Mara was speaking with an emissary of the Nine about moving an asset into the grave of the first fleet during one of our visits, and on one of the tables in her throne room there was a hologram depicting one of the pyramid ships. Well the pyramids are here, and that little plot point where they felt we needed to be a fly on the wall hasn’t come up again since so far as I know.
The Sleepless rocket launcher lore says that Sjur Eido dreamed of Mara destroying a pyramid ship with her bare hands, maybe it's something related to the topic
If she can destroy a Pyramid ship it would be unwise to do it again until the time is right. One missing ship is an anomaly, Mara is probably waiting for the fleet to amass in Sol. She also probably needs more intel on the Pyramids to make the weapon more reliable and easier to reproduce, which explains her interest in the pyramid in Savathun's throneworld.
Byf, you rock!
As a long time viewer, but someone who rarely touches the game anymore, I want to say thank you for all the videos. They keep me updated on the lore, and Destiny lore is some of my favorite (but not enough to keep me slogging through the grindy gameplay loop anymore, sadly.)
One thing I want to bring up is a bit of lore that has been in the back of my mind ever since we first discovered the Pyramid on Luna, and that has been made even more relevant now thanks to this video. That bit of lore is the Awoken rocket launcher Sleepless' lore tab. It covers a dream Sjur Eido had of Mara "cracking a black triangle in two with her bare hands." I believe it's been hinted at the the Awoken have some level of prescience, especially in relation to their dreams. In my mind, this provides more evidence, although admittedly somewhat insubstantial evidence, that Mara has indeed destroyed, at the very least, a single Pyramid ship.
Also, in a minor but related tangent going off of the rest of the lore tab for Sleepless', the possibility of seeing Sjur Eido resurrected has me very excited. I'm of the mind that she's not actually dead per se, and that we will *fingers crossed* see her in the future. And wouldn't it be an amazing story moment to see (or more likely read about in a lore tab somewhere) Mithrax introduce his daughter to her namesake? Or watch as Sjur meets Crow and is dumbfounded as to why Prince Uldren has no recognition of her whatsoever? (That is, unless Savathun was able and willing to return certain memories of the Distributary to him.) Or to see if Mara would be visibly and genuinely elated at having her lover back, or would try to use her as just another pawn? Or, on the lighter side, even hear some humorous bit of throwaway dialogue about Sjur wanting her bow back?
Regardless of if this ever gets discussed in a future video, you bet you'll still have my viewership!
The concept that had been bothering me for awhile, that the first bit of the video helped to show, is when the Pyramid positioned above Io began to (at least in my observation) appeared as if it were "Drinking" the remnants of Light that had been burrowed into Io's Core. This is also somewhat explained back in Season of Arrival, as Eris states that "life across Io is starting to recede", as if all the Traveler's Life giving energies were being re-absorbed. My theory to the "Witness will Drink the Light" is part of the old proverb "There cannot exist Darkness with Light" leading me to speculate that The Witness does not seeking to extinguish the Light, but to Acquire it so no opposition to the the Final Shape exists. This is all my own Speculations of course, but I am always in awe listening to your hypothesis on the Lore and your own Interpretation. Thank you so much for being a peer to which shares their love of Destiny Lore!
If she can bring down a Pyramid, but she's the only one who can, it's probably best that she doesn't tell anyone. That knowledge getting out paints a *huge* target on her, because she is now an actual threat that *must* be either eliminated by The Witness, or otherwise countered. Therefore, even if she did do it, she needs to keep her cards close to her chest. The less that the enemy knows that you have a particular weapon, the more you can use it against them, and make each strike with that weapon count.
@Urazz There is something The Witness *doesn't* know:
Can she do it again?
She hasn't done it since. Even when it would have been advantageous to do so.
Is it because she chose not to, or because she can't?
Allow me to pull a quote from "I Love Bees" (that old Halo 2 ARG), about World War II:
Herzog: --The Germans were winning. They used an elaborate encryption scheme, the British cracked it, and then they had a problem.
Lieutenant: ...After they cracked the code...
Herzog: That's right. Now the Brits knew what the Germans meant to do, but if they acted on that knowledge--
Lieutenant: --The Germans would realize the code had been broken.
Herzog: Now what would you do if someone had cracked your code?
Lieutenant: I'd make a new one.
Herzog: Full marks!
Lieutenant: Thank you, sir.
Herzog: So they had to a terrible calculus. Had to decide how much they could use the intelligence, and how many times they would just have to stand there and watch a German operation they knew they could have stopped.
This is exactly the problem that Mara Sov has now, if she still has the capability to take down Pyramids. She probably only has one or two more shots with this. She has to make each shot count.
@@ericbright1742 Excellent analogy.
If you ever get a bit of a lull in the lore news (probably never), it’d be cool to have a video going over all the real-life inspiration that’s used for Destiny lore. For instance, the name The Black Fleet…
Do you think the message sent by Eris was using Deepsight? Imprinting the memory of something into an object? Savathun does this with her crystal prison to show Crow his past, we got all those trinkets with the collectors edition, the Altars of Reflection and Lisbon 13 with his cloak. Would be cool to learn if she has this ability as her own power.
Didn't Sjur Eido also have a vision of Mara splitting a pyramid in half? I think it comes up somewhere in the piles of Dreaming City lore. EDIT: Found it. It's the lore tab of Sleepless.
Wow thank you
Does anyone think this sounds similar to riven? Mara has shown before that she likes having power that no one else has so that she can have a hidden upper hand. I believe that she did destroy one and is keeping it hidden because she wants to have us needing her instead of it being the other way around.
I just want to say that byfs videos have become an integral part of my destiny 2 experience and that I'm grateful for the time and effort dude puts in everytime, much respect!
Mara Sov, bows, To No one.
stilll holds true
Just FYI vocal audio spot on I’ve always had to turn your videos volume way up and then in between music and/or ads having deafening sound. Awesome improvement love your videos and storytelling.
I love that “She is their Lucifer, their Melek Taus, their Feanor” line being mentioned in the lore there. It’s so easy sometimes to forget that Destiny is still supposed to take place in our world.
Gotta love the Tolkien reference
@@herrcay0323 gotta start scraping the lore for any more good fantasy references throughout the game now.
Something I've always wondered is "What would happen if every hunter in existence shot a Celestial Nighthawk Golden Gun shot at the same spot?" and I think the pyramid ships are the perfect way to find out.
In the lore for the Sleepless rocket launcher, Mara does indeed destroy a Black Pyramid after Uldren/Crow tells her a word. However this is a dream that Sjur Eido had and she wakes up shortly after.
Sjur had seen future before (she knew when she herself was supposed to die but Mara prevented it from happening), so it was likely more than a dream.
This is definitely something that's going to be a topic later on in the story. I cannot wait for it to unfold.
You know mara did have a wish granting dragon and she does have an ahahmkara egg as well im not a lore nut but wouldnt it of been possible that one of the main reasons savathun attacked the dreaming city was because of that dragon being such a threat i know the witness is more powerful than we can imagine but even if selfish and usually causes chaos with its wishes it grants at the end of the day a wish granting dragon is well a wish granting dragon thats still a pretty big threat and not just to light bearers but also to those who wield the darkness whats not to say mara found a way to harness the power of riven combining it with her own power
Speaking of Oryx, I have a question that has been burning a hole in my mind. Why haven't we encountered a Nightmare of Oryx? I questioned that heavily when Shadowkeep launched, but never got answers. Now that we have gone through this Season, with all the info we learned in Witch Queen, I feel that question is more important now than ever. Why is it that Oryx, the Taken King, one of the greatest foes we have ever faced, does not appear before ANYONE as a Nightmare?
I would have Said it's because he wasn't dead untill skolas ended up being not dead. There is the possibility it is purely gameplay related though and bungie didn't want to go through the effort of recreating him and his Ai in a way similar to d1 only to never use it again. This is of course unlike the other nightmare d1 bosses that are rather standard.
@@jacob-2271 Ghaul is pretty similar to Oryx in terms of AI movement (his Shade version anyway). So they probably could have brought him back a while ago, they probably just chose to wait until KF returns.
2:00 i can just imagine our guardian and oryx awkwardly sitting next to each other at a Bungie event just because of this lore book
the part that mentions AI-COM/XBLK is definitely Failsafe, since XBLK is probably an abbreviation for Exodus Black.
Mara holds a considerable fear of the Witness, she made that quite clear to us when she helped us create that worm grenade launcher. We know she plays the long game so it stands to reason she'd let this rumor persist, she couldn't destroy Oryx's ship and Asher confirmed external attacks can be halted on the pyriamids before they cause damage. I think Mara could but there are a few requirments, Mara has to be at a certain point within the ship, and it comes at a cost of some kind
"Held postition for the next thirty minutes."
Neat way to say "I freaked out and needed to calm down."
I think she CAN destroy them, but doing so is incredibly costly in a way we don't fully comprehend, for her. Costly enough that it isn't worth doing even if they threaten her directly. Each ship holds the power of things like The Upended which can level worlds. Destroying those without disarming them first could be catastrophic for everything within a pretty wide radius, and since the pyramids still in our grasp are effectively parked at our front door...............
I wonder, since the vision that Fenchurch got of Eris and Mara in that debris field was indeed real, if that same thing happened to the Guardian when they touched the unknown artifact in the Luna Pyramid. It seems eerily similar, Fenchurch gets transported to that exact moment and Eris looks at him and says "pathetic" in Russian. When the Guardian touches the artifact, they get transported to the Black Garden and are confronted by (presumably) the Witness as their own self.
That figure at the end of the Shadowkeep campaign was very likely the Witness appearing as a dark mirror of the player.
It used pretty much the same speech pattern, speaking of itself as "we" and some people noticed that it's hand gestures were similar to the ones the Witness used in the final cutscene of Witchqueen.
One of the guys in my clan put me onto your channel. I'm very excited because I'm eager to learn about the lore of Destiny. I just started playing in Feb. 2022.
Finally! I’ve been waiting for this since the previous vids!
Regarding if Mara can destroy a Pyramid ship and why she might or might not, recall her dialogue in the Parasite mission. Her assault on the Eris 136199 Pyramid may well have been when she had the incident with the Witness that she described and that shook her so heavily. She may well be afraid to face them again.
Also, I believe that the term AI-COM/XBLK is referring to Failsafe - "XBLK" = Exodus Black. If that's true, it suggests that she may be about to become a much more significant character in a seasonal story soon. Some of the D2 legacy characters like her, Devrim, and Hawthorne have been largely left behind in the last couple years of storytelling, and I think it would be cool to see them brought back up to speed with the more currently relevant characters.
If I'm willing to bet anything, it would be that we will become powerful enough to destroy a pyramid, probably in Final Shape.
I'm seeing Mara Sov's identifier 'VIP 0704' as a reference to July 4th, Independence Day here in the US. From everything we've seen and read of Mara, she genuinely works independently of the Light or Dark. If this wasn't the actual reason for that specific number having been given to Mara Sov, it's one hell of a coincidence 🤔
I loved this a lot. I wonder if there's any lore on the pyramid scales we saw in the contact public event in season of arrivals?
Thinking back to all the Mara vs. Pyramid references, there's the lore entry where Sjur Eido wakes up from a dream where Mara "stood atop a great black triangle" acting as foreshadowing, Mara's final Queen's Court message where she references Elsie acting as a prelude, and the Invitation of the Nine where the Nine state "the clever one is in peril" acting as real time development. The only plot hole I see is how did this fight happen if Mara was lost in the Ascendant Plain until Season of the Lost, unless I missed something.
Ok one question. (I started in beyond light so my timeline may be off) if this happed before the moon pyramid and that was our first pyramid then how did Eris know what it was?
A thought is what if Mara does what the Pyramid does but on itself. The Pyramid, paracausal it may be, is in physical space. Mara then plops that bit of existance somewhere else, perhaps in a lower plane of existance. The only alternative I can think of is a reverse Oryx where instead of unfolding an Ascendant plane onto the physical, it "unfolds" the physical into the metaphysical. This new metaphysical space then traps this Pyramid in an inbetween of real and not-real planes and is effectively rendered powerless. I think the pyramid in savathun's throne world is a testament to how pyramids can be put into different planes of existance.
In summary, destruction not in the sense of smashing it with a weapon like the upended... but almost a denial of its existance (Mara simply makes them not real since she says so).
Correct me if i am wrong
"Патетическая" was translated as pathetic?
As far as I remember pathetic has a different meaning and it's translation is "Жалкий".
"Патетическая" according to some online dictionaries(rare word , never used it) means passionate, excited, full of pathos.
And also its used to describe a she.
Like "Патетический" is for he
"Патетическая" for she
"Патетическое" for it
(my guess its about Mara maybe?)
I was expecting to hear something about the 'asset' that Mara worked with the 9 on that was deployed to the edge of the system.... I still have no idea what that was. Is there some lore elsewhere that talks about that and what it did/failed to do?
If you remember the Lore on the "Sleepless" Rocket Launcher, Sjur Eido predicts Mara cracking open a Pyramid ship.
Ikora’s response and analysis of Mara’s affinity for secrecy is perhaps the most accurate. But, thanks to the dialogue from the “Of Queens and Worms” exotic quest, I believe the Witness showed Mara who the players of the game are: it, and the entity of the Traveler (if it has one). The fear, doubt, and anxiety in Mara’s voice as the quest goes on is something to be concerned about. If even someone with an iron-will like Mara can be scared, we should be VERY worried about the Witness. I feel that Savathun and the Witness showed Mara that she is merely a pawn that believes herself to be a player. Though Ikora is right about one thing, Mara may be even more determined to have things end differently in this timeline, especially with the knowledge, in every other, her sacrifices were in vain. She will not accept the cycle of death spurred by the time loop and the Traveler and Witness’ war to continue. Though, I fear secrecy may not work with the Witness’ prying ears and eyes. It has many Disciples, and the Egregore is another of its tools that it uses to spy and corrupt.
18:40 I am glad that Ikora has apparently read the Silmarillion
I think Mara destroying a black fleet ship is possibly her experimenting with a new power. We know that Mara is incredibly powerful, but I think on top of her secrecy and immense planning and knowledge of the universe, she has actually taken a lot of Oryx's power for herself. Firstly, we know that when we kill Oryx, that we refuse to take the Taken throne, as Toland told us. We also know that the dreadnaught's weapon Oryx uses during the battle of Saturn is Oryx's throne world being extended out into the real world and his destructive will destroying anything that comes into its path.
We also know that Mara came back through the ascendant realm, using Oryx's throne world weapon to enter his throne world and wait for her time to begin taking over and she seems to have done that.
As mentioned in the lore, Mara uses some metaphysical ability gained from Oryx. What's to say that she has learned of this power of turning the throne world onto the real world? Perhaps Mara has been keeping this a secret, because if we knew she was using Darkness powers around Shadowkeep time, Earth and most of humanity may have treated her as an enemy instead.
Maybe she has kept this power under wraps until now. The black fleet is here and she has decided that she wants to experiment how Oryx's powers she has gained, as well as her existing formidable power that she has tried to use it to see how far it'll go.
I suspect she's used it, but found that she's unable to control/restrain this power and while it did destroy a black fleet ship, Mara is scared that she doesn't understand it and worries that she'll unintentionally kill other people or herself using this power.
That's possibly why she hasn't tried to destroy another ship. Perhaps Mara is going to show us the darkness power "to move worlds" as Savathun told us we would soon be able to do.
She passed out from the power it took to attack the dreadnought and that was with help from her most powerful advisors (I forget their names). I think attempting to attack a pyramid would kill her with the backlash she’d receive from her power output
Hiyo, Byf
I want to address the fact, that word "Патетическая" does not mean "pathetic" in Russian(despite sounding almost as English word "pathetic"). from my (and google's) knowledge, it's actually an adjective, that goes from Greek word "pathetikos" and can have meanings as:
thrilling
sensitive, sensuous
passionate
filled with pathos
As for why Eris may say that is out of my grasp, cuz it may very well be a mistake on Bungie's end, to choose not quite fitting word, or just that we don't have context of the situation to understand it yet. Hope we will get an explanation on that, cuz so far it really looks like a mistake.
Still, as always, thx for your hard work
Lore daddy blessing is with content as always
"Патетическая" means "passionate" "exhilarating" "full of pathos" "strongly affecting the senses" and usually used to characterize music
The way Bungie plans ahead the story with entries like this really is mind blowing
What a minute, is the "group of veteran guardians making their homes on luna" line a reference to moon bounty farmers? That's amazing if so.
I like the details for the VIP numbers pertaining to our character and their first appearance. (2014, Destiny launch) Same as for Oryx's number being 2015, coinciding with the The Taken King launch.
Wow, was not expecting the name of Feanor to appear here! This apparently means that it is canon in the Destiny universe that J.R.R. Tolkien's works survived the first Collapse in some way and that Ikora has read the Silmarillion :D
Glad to hear Ikora is a Tolkien fan!
So an important point I feel needs bringing up is it seems mara died whilst doing whatever she did, so that's a possible reason why she's not doing it left right and centre, after all I would avoid death wherever possible. I imagine that part of the reason we're not going to know whether she destroyed a pyramid or not is that when one does get destroyed on screen, bungie will want the player to be involved, either doing whatever mara did inside one, or assisting mara in destroying it, perhaps protecting her from what killed her last time, or clearing a path for her to get to where she needs to go to destroy it
I think Mara has the power to do it again, but it requires the aura of Oryx to sneak inside (which she possibly can no longer use) and requires her to sacrafice herself in the attempt, which given the compromised nature of her throne world is very likely a risk every time it happens. (Plus throne world or not, dying cannot be a pleasant experience.) I wonder also now since her run in with the witness directly if she is even less willing to risk death, in depth the witness can reach out to people, and it's possible that this is how Mara made olcontact before, and judging by her reaction in the parasite mission, I don't think she's willing to risk a second encounter for the time being.
Did they really call us vip 2014 because destiny released in 2014 and then call oryx vip 2015 because TTK released in 2015
love how this episode had some build-up to it!!!
I’d love to imagine what that raid team looked like.
Why Destroy the black fleet when we could control the black fleet our guardian probably could with the sheer power we have being strongest guardian and having countless "gods" heads on our belt i just wonder what the physical manifestation of the traveler is or whoever is behind it (I cant remember the name)
Honestly, I think it may have taken a lot out of Mara. I mean, the video did say she died and Eris had to revive her through her Throne World. Or, it could also be that it WAS just a one time thing...at least for now. At least until Mara finds a way to use Guardians to blow them up.
I think it’s important to note that whatever happened on the pyramid in orbit of the planet Eris, it killed Mara. Not just that but brining her back, at least to the spot she died, was taking and dangerous for Mara and Eris both. It’s possible that Mara did destroy a pyramid and could replicate the process. But doing so would be to high a risk.
Personally, I am becoming fixated on the entry which vaguely describes a trip to the Dreadnaught, and the acquisition of some power which disturbed and seemingly angered Eris Morn. My guess is fairly obvious - Mara Sov laid claim to whatever dormant power remained within Oryx's throne world, and likely came out of that place looking and acting differently. Eris Morn might have seen this as some sort of betrayal, given that Oryx and that dark power he wields were such a horror to Eris. In addition, this unique and temporary infusion of power might be what it takes to destroy a single ship.
Here's my theory. We, the Guardians of Earth, will have to employ the exact same "technologies" against the Witness. Not only the ability to become infused with stolen power, but the necessity of death and resurrection, the type of which can only be provided by the protection of a throne world. WE need a throne world, one of our own or perhaps to lay claim to the light-blessed throne space of Savathun, in order to survive the war against the Witness. Mara Sov died destroying a single pyramid - perhaps that's just part of the game.
In that other timeline it seemed like she needed Rasputin in addition to her own power to destroy the ship so maybe she provides the armor piercing round to Rasputins cannon. Add Eris' close knowledge of the darkness and hive magic and thats a pretty powerful weapon
I think if we can bypass the paracausal field around those ships then they could probably be very easily destroyed. Easiest way to play the psychological warfare game would be for the darkness to come across as invincible on the outside but may just be super squishy inside.
Think of it this way, you can put a bowl over a lamp which will create darkness but the lamp is not snuffed out but just covered. Removed said cover and you get a face full of light. Similar to how illusions work.
18:34 "she is their lucifer, their melek taus or their Fëanor" Bruh Fëanor is from the silamrilian. Good to know some of Tolkien's work survived in Destiny 2
Dang, Ikora must've read The Silmarillion.
I believe that maybe she depleted her power and needs time to recharge, just like any warrior she need to learn to use her ability to the point where she doesn't loose as much power there for giving her a ability for a second attack, unless she secretly took the light and doesn't want anyone to know.!!? 🤔 🧐
Did lore daddy get a new mic? It sounds fantastic!
Okay, hear me out byf. (Big tinfoil hat moment) given the fact that the witness is on its way, and Mara still having so much mystery to her, what if she's lights harbinger? Around the time of Forsaken we heard *something* speak to us on Io when we mediated in the light. What if she was contacted by that same being at some point? She's mentioned as being like Lucifer, and that ideology is fascinating. In the lore that came from the messages from the artifact on Luna in Shadowkeep, when the witness is describing the Gardener's changing of the game, the allowing of life to continue existing despite being destroyed it describes it as being evil. Mara's actions always seem to be based around survival. What if the entity behind the traveler sees the similarity between itself and her and chose to give her a power the we don't have? Or, simply the ability to use the energies that made her awoken in the first place in tandem.
A silly, unnecessarily deep thought, but just an idea.
If anyone could I would believe it to be Mara. But the fact it also killed her and sent her back to her throne world may have caused some disruption between her and the throne world making it even more risky to do it once again. Either that or she now lacks the energy to do it in succession and she needs time to regain that power.
I love the lore from the collectors edition. The insight they give is truly fascinating.
In one of the cut scenes or lore, didn't she say she wanted to destroy the traveler? Or shoot it out of the sky? I could be wrong, but I swear I heard it.
I believe her an Eris are going to be either our downfall or our key to victory. Both of them know way more than their saying, along with the exo stranger. How does she move from timeline to timeline? Hopefully Bungie clears a lot of this up.
She said during one of the queen’s court visits that she once had the chance to destroy the traveler. But that balance is also needed in the universe (both light and dark must coexist).
in my head canon, byf is a Hidden that has a podcast to inform guardians of whats going on
[looking eagerly to the Wrestlemania sign foretelling the return of Sjur Eido] it's all coming together!!!