I see what you're saying with the boot out system, however it's clearly designed in a way to make you rotate between stages instead of finishing them in a single go.
Hearing that, it’s honestly a bit antithetical to how I play 3D mario games. I usually jump into a world, 100% it where possible and then move on to the next. I’m open to the idea of a system like this (comets in galaxy handled it quite well), but it’d be jarring being forced to go from one level to the next, just to go back to the previous level for what’s effectively a green star with more content.
The biggest thing that I want for future games is actually Bowser's Fury's powerup system and infinite storage. Powerups in standard 3D Mario games have always been temporary and situational, so it was super cool to have access to plethora of traditional powerups, especially ones that made platforming easier
I'd like something like SMG2, where you still have an HP system but you lose the power-up after getting hit And have the action button become the power-up button or dedicate a specific button to it Or maybe just not have an action button gimmick until you get a power-up
You say that Bowser's Fury is most similar to Mario 64, but I feel like there's another mario game that makes a lot more sense here: Mario Sunshine. Bowser's Fury resembles Sunshine both in a bunch of superficial ways (Bowser Jr. appearing and using his magic brush, a tropical theme, collectibles being "shines," the main hazard being polluting goop), and in that sunshine was the first game to attempt to sell the player on a seamless world. Though each level is separated similar to 64, the game is built in a way where they're all meant to take place on one map, and you can see other levels in the distance even if you can't physically go there. Bowser's fury is like this idea being fully realized 20 years later, now that the technology and developers have come far enough to pull it off. But at the same time, they clearly knew they couldn't just make a game like sunshine and fill in the area between levels with empty terrain players had to run through. I'm not sure what the next game will look like, but I think this interconnectedness is something the devs are wanting to go for. And at the same time, I think they're keenly aware of it's weaknesses. A game like bowser's fury is the perfect test bed for them to see what worked and what didn't, and apply what they learned to whatever game comes next.
I don't think I agree. All of your practical issues with the game can be solved by easy means: 1. Too much filler content - Nintendo overstuffed Odyssey with moons to justify the 60$ price tag. That was an unfortunate mistake. Short games can justify a full price if they are replayable. That said, when I ask for an open-world Mario game, I don't ask for a 100+ hour adventure with plenty of "side-content" to distract from the "main-content". I ask for a short game with a lot of freedom. A Bowser's Fury like Mario game with 300-400 cat shines that lasts about 10 hours on a normal playthrough, and about 20 hours when going for 100% completion doesn't sound too long or exhausting. 2. The manual boot-out system - I did notice the inconvenience of needing to step far away from 1 island and than coming back. However, I didn't mind it because it's clear to me the devs wanted you to go to a different island and do a mission there instead to prevent the feeling of repetition by doing all missions in 1 island in a row. As far as potential improvements go, I'd suggest 2 options: A. Every time you complete a main mission on an island, you get a message that says "The island seems to be about to change. Do you want to wait for it to happen"? If you answer no, you just keep on playing like Bowser's Fury, where you can still roam on that island to collect more stuff, and in order for the island to change you need to do the manual boot-out. If you answer yes, you are sent back to the beginning of the island, and the island itself is already changed. That way, you can keep the pace going. And if you think constantly being asked the same question will get exhausting, that's where my 2nd option steps in: B. Add in a toggle in the options menu that sets the game into a specific function every time you complete a main mission. That way, whether you want the island to change immediately or do a manual boot-out, you can set the toggle to your preferred option. I'm honestly convinced both options can co-exist in the game. 3. Repetitive Fury Bowser shines - Yes, I too felt the repetition of these in the post game when going for 100%. However, a simple solution is to minimize their density within the game's overall content. Bowser's Fury has more than 20 of these out of 100. That's over 20%. But how about a game where these kinds of shines are merely 5% of the game? This sounds a lot more bearable. If the game does end up having 300-400 shines like I suggested in point 1, that means we'll have about 15-20 Fury Bowser shines. That's less or about as much as in Bowser's Fury, but with much less down-time since you can do plenty more missions for shines in between. To further alleviate this issue, I'd suggest giving players an option to reawaken Fury Bowser at will. Apparently, you can already do that via a Bowser amiibo, but not everyone is interested in spending additional 50$ on a doll that adds 1 helpful QoL function. A good compromise to satisfy both those who own the amiibo and those who don't will be to keep the option to reawaken Fury Bowser at will only for the post game. And that's P much it. As long as Nintendo won't overstuff the game, and add a few more QoL functions to streamline the game, a bigger Bowser's Fury game will be excellent, without falling into the pitfalls of other open world games.
I like these solutions. I think my problem is I'm somewhat pessimistic about Nintendo actually implementing these solutions, particularly number 1. It seems to me that the modis operandi of big triple-A open world games is to go as big as possible; I just can't see them going smaller scale with Mario, especially since we already have precedent with Odyssey.
@@AurumAlex64 That I'm definitely worried about. I don't want another game where 50% of the McGuffins are "ground stomp the floor at a specific location" or "talk to someone". It's partly why I prefer Sonic Frontiers over Mario Odyssey. All the activities feel somewhat substantial and viable for progression, but without feeling like filler content meant just to overstuff the game. However, I AM interested in Bowser's Fury being the future of 3D Mario. The idea of mixing the 2 styles of Mario gameplay (course-clear and sandbox) into 1 game is really great. With the right touch-ups and Nintendo learning what their audience really wants (and not what they THINK their audience wants), a bigger Bowser's Fury can easily be a contender for the best Mario game. I agree with you that 3D World is the best Mario game though. That game has such a fantastic pace and so many fun and creative levels.
@@roiitzkovich4545Honestly I don’t even care about simple tasks so long as the rewards are adjusted to be more fitting and less intrusive. Looking at Odyssey, maybe super easy tasks would give you single moons that don’t interrupt you with a little cutscene, bigger tasks like sub-areas give you double moons with a quick cutscene, story moons would be triple moons, and major boss moons and the like would be full moons equating to five. That way you still get big numbers, but it’s clear that tasks have different values, and you aren’t stopped every time you do incredibly basic tasks.
@@thevioletbee5879 I guess that's a decent solution. However, speedrunners will likely still go for the simple tasks mostly because, despite giving you only 1 McGuffin, they are done quickly and overall save time. Moreover, the issue regarding content density will not be solved. If you keep all the missions in the game intact, but make some of them worth more moons than before, that'll merely result in more moons in total. When going for 100% completion, you'd still have to get all of these "ground stomp a specific location" or "talk to someone" moons. People already analyzed all the moons in Odyssey and it turns out more than 50% of the game's missions are the simple tasks that barely require any platforming (if at all). I think a bigger Bowser's Fury game should go for less McGuffins, but with almost all of them being normal sized missions. I want a platformer where almost all of the McGuffins feel like rewards for platforming missions.
I speculate that a possible reason for people wanting Bowser's Fury to be the future of 3D Mario is the combination of the 2D Mario power-up system with the 3D Mario collectable structure
I guess that's one of the reasons Galaxy became my favorite Mario game in the franchise. It's fast paced nature and fun controls just made for one of the best games I've ever played! I really liked Mario Odyssey, and at the time of it's release, thought that no other game could top it, but when 3D All Stars released and I played Galaxy, I was proven DEAD wrong! When playing through Odyssey, especially now after all the hype of "THE NEW MODERN MARIO GAME!!" has worn completely off after 8 years (Still can't believe it's been almost a decade after Odyssey released along with the Switch) it's really easy to see how that game is flooded with worthless moons that are boring to collect, along with the game feeling a bit slower that previous Mario games because of it. Galaxy is one of the best Mario games, and if any game in the Mario franchise deserves to be the franchise's future, IT'S THAT!! Sorry, long comment. I'm just really passionate about Galaxy!!
what I love about super mario 3D world, and one of the things I think it does so well, is that it's *not* a traditional 3D mario game. it's a traditional 2D mario game, in 3D.
@@stevenmcburney8167 the cat shines are part of bowser's fury, not original super mario 3d world, which is what I was *talking* about, if you would care to read my actual comments.
@@champagnesupernova1839 you said it’s a traditional 2d Mario game in 3D because of the power ups and I’m saying it’s still a traditional 3D Mario game because of the star/shines/cat shines missions
imo an open world Mario game could work, but Nintendo would have to know what they're doing. Personally I think it would have worked beautifully if Super Mario Sunshine were open world. All of the levels are already on the same island and visible from each other, the turbo nozzle for FLUDD could help lessen travel time, and it solves the problem of too many collectibles by having the blue coins not be worth as much. If Mario Odyssey had replaced a lot of its moons with something similar to SMS blue coins it would have gotten rid of that issue
My biggest problem with Bowsers Fury is the story. It has to be the most missed potential story of any Mario game. Bowser jr and Mario working together on a journey to save Bowser because he’s gone crazy is such an interesting premise and there’s so much they could’ve done with it, but they just chose not to do anything with it. I know it’s a mainline Mario game and those aren’t really known for having interesting stories, but the mist potential missed potential is very noticeable
Banger Video! Super Mario 3D world is absolutely the best or at least top 3 Mario games ever. Mario is at its best when it injects the fun, imaginative set pieces DIRECTLY into your veins with little or minimal delay. it's why I prefer galaxy 2 over Galaxy 1, I'm here to play fun levels above everything else
So many of these criticisms fundamentally misunderstand or ignore the intentions behind the choices the developers made. The "bootout" system in bowser's fury is obviosuly there to encourage exploration and not letting you finish each level in a single playthrough. That's why there are activities within the world map that will quickly guide you from one level to another, like the plessie time challenges or bunny hunts. You're not meant to exit the level then re-enter it. If you play that way and get frustrated at the game that's on you.
I see this particular argument a lot in this comments section, but I'm not sure I really understand it: what would be the harm in the game allowing me to do all the missions in a stage consecutively? People say it's to prevent repetition, but I've played all of the other 3D games like this, and they have never gotten repetitive to me. Having to exit a level, do a shine in another level, then revisit the previous level is not really any better than what we had before: it's just the same boot-out system we've always had, only with extra steps. Doing the missions in each level is supposed to be the fun part of the game, so it could only become repetitive to me if the missions themselves weren't very interesting in the first place, regardless of how spaced apart they end up being.
@@AurumAlex64 As I mentioned, there are challenges in the overworld that guide you from one island to the next, encouraging you to move from island to island. These all guide you to different shines you can get or new/previously visited islands. You're actively deciding not to engage with the world's design, that's on you not the developers. Maybe if so many people are commenting similar sentiments you should take a look back at your weak criticism instead of thinking everyone else is wrong lol.
My ideal future is just another game like Odyssey, but fixing the issues it has. Flesh out the worlds a bit, prioritize main game content rather than post game, and make moons stuff you have to earn through missions and then make perhaps another type of collectable the stuff like herding the sheep or whatever. A hub world would be nice, but its system of moving between kingdoms worked for me. I'd personally prefer more explorable areas in the kingdoms rather than those cappy challenges or whatever, but that's just me ig
Question for AurunAlex, what do you want for the next 3d Mario? I agree that open world mario is not the solution and only accentuates the many problems I have with Odyssey such as the game having waay to many moons(999 to be specific)while other 3D Mario,s had around 120-240 stars/shines and the fact that Odyssey just feels really rushed to me.
@@TicTacToeCraftI agree that i did say Odyssey was rushed, whih is false but you can in fact buy from the various shops moos until you get up to 999, which unlocks a secret ending where a cap lands on Peach,s castle.I also think that ending is worse than the postcard at the end of sunshine.800 plus moons is still to much compared to pevious games and even more padding than the 240 blue coins, 120 green stars, super Luigi galaxy, 3d land,s Special worlds or TTYD,s infamous backtracking.
@@theothenintendomaster3717 I'd rather collect all of Odyssey's moons ten times than find and collect all of Sunshine's cryptic blue coins without a guide.
This game was terrible, I've only tried it once, I was a little Bowser baby thing, the camera constantly kept moving away from me meaning I was just constantly offscreen, it did not make for a fun two-player experience, even after we found out about camera controls, because it turns out the camera takes the same controls as some movement options, plus two players have to share a single camera.
@@flameofthephoenix8395while I prefer multiplayer games, you can't really dock Bowser's Fury because it's a collectathon Mario experience which are always designed for single player play
I think I finally found out why I don't like open world games, like botw, they're too slow, takes forever to get anywhere, too repetitive, and don't usually have much variety. I love mario games, especially 3d world, because they're fast paced, have a lot of variety between levels, and there is a clear objective. I honestly find it weird how when I first saw 3d world, I hated it because it was way more linear than the previous games, and it had a timer, but now it's one of my favorite games.
There are a lot more positive aspects to the manual boot out system than you give it credit for. When I get to the top of a tower in Bowser's Fury, I not only am awarded with a shine, but also a gorgeous view of the world and a look down at everything I went through to get there. There's a great feeling of satisfaction you get from seeing the obstacles you've overcome behind you, and a feeling of wonder you get from looking at all the new ones you have in store in the distance. With the manual boot out system, I can use the end of a level as a vantage point to naturally look at the different parts of the map and make a choice about what I want to do next. It takes what is normally a segmented process of: finish a level, go out to the overworld/menu, look at the options; and changes it to finish a level, look at the options, travel there. There's something so much more natural about that which keeps me engrossed in the game world. It makes it feel less like a hard cut between gameplay and level select, and more of a natural flow between different aspects of gameplay. Another thing I think it does well is save me from my own completionist nature. While in this video you see having to leave the level and re-enter to reset it as a downside and a tedious way to get to the next challenge in that area, I see it as a suggestion by the developers: Go somewhere else, try a different area, explore. You had to make the journey to this new area to reset the shine anyway, so why not just do a mission here instead? In most Mario games I do what I assume you do as well, go to a world, complete each mission in a row, then move onto the next one. I assume that's how most people played these games. But Bowser's Fury specifically tries to steer you away from doing that by making it easier and more fulfilling to go to a different level than to reset the one you're currently on. And what I've found is that's the more fun way to play anyway! You get variety that is always tuned somewhat to your preferences because YOU choose where to go. It also fixes the problems you have of going through the same challenges over and over again with minor tweaks, because in practice you won't be returning to that level for a while and the by the time you do you'll be re-learning its gimmick and layout a bit. In a normal automatic boot out system, where you're taken back to the start of the level or a hub, you're encouraged to go right back in to where you were last time as to not leave it unfinished, which leads to large chunks of similar gameplay. In Bowser's Fury, you're encouraged to do the opposite: seek out variety and vary what shines you're collecting.
This is a really interesting way of looking at it, and you're definitely right about me playing the stages sequentially in older Mario titles. It will definitely require a recalibration to not just go out and right back into the same level, but I think it's worth a try. Although I do feel the game somewhat undermines this idea after you beat the game initially, because then you can just teleport directly to the level's entrance, resetting it in the process.
@@AurumAlex64As someone that doesn’t play Mario games like this and instead already does what the game encourages by jumping to from level to level and not sticking too long on one I didn’t even know or consider the manual boot out aspect because I was always focused on the shines I could already see and by the time I made it back to the area I was before it had already reset. for me the fast travel system was only used near the end when you couldn’t find the shrines everywhere and you needed to go to specific areas, I never considered resetting the area because there was never a need to, the next shine was always somewhere to be found close by
I know everyone hates Sunshine Blue coins, but i personally believe if Odyssey had brought them back, and all the ground pound moons and other thoughtless ones were blue coins instead, the game would be vastly improved because there would be a delineation between the value of objectives
I think Odyssey is the best 3D Mario To fix the issue of too many moons, I would have the “lesser” moons be a different collectable, or have Stars be the major collectable and moons be secondary So the player would know the meaty content is for the stars, and the less substantial content would be the moons I don’t want open world Mario, the open zone style is the right choice imo
@@alessioprotopapa4709 no, because single moons still add to the moon counter. So you ground pound three glowy bumps and boom you got the equivalent of beating a boss. The moon issue doesn't bother me to be honest though I still really like Odyssey
@@alessioprotopapa4709 that’s true, but it doesn’t really have the same impact as a “greater” collectible If you get 100 coins for smaller tasks and 300 coins for “main” tasks it doesn’t feel like “oh wow this is substantial” it feels like “okay more coins I already have a million” The stars could serve their own purpose functionally too like opening doors in Mario 64 Moons could’ve been the main collectible, it’s just that when there are so many it starts to dilute the experience, even if it’s just a perception issue If I give you a pizza once a week that pizza is going to be special, you’ll look forward to it every week, but if I gave it to you every meal of every day, it loses its value, it becomes too much and loses the “special” feeling
@@MasonOfLife I get where you're coming from. The most similar thing we had to this was in sunshine with the sprites and the blue coins. But honestly i don't think odyssey would benefit from having a "greater" collectable. Odyssey (at least in my perspective) is all about exploration and discovery. Think about this, In the early stages of the game you are presented with these collectables as the single goal (think about the stars in galaxy and how they are the only objective, it's similar to how the game presents itself with the first powermoon) But Unlocking the Odyssey, in sand, you are thrown into this giant place where these collectables are hidden everywhere. And to progress you don't need to "finish the level" or "defeat the boss", you need just 16 normal moons! This is what i am talking about, the sense of the game isn't to progress as much as possible, or complete a list. It's to explore the level and the job of the moons is to give you the reason. Even a simple ground pound moon, it keeps you on the toes knowing they really can be in any place. Ps. Sorry if I didn't explain myself well, i'm not a native eanglish.
only recently found your channel, and after just watching the Paper Jam vid and now this one, I gotta say that you are incredibly good at making video essays. Obviously I've not seen every one, but in just two videos you've had some serious tact points that really resonated with me in ways I couldn't previously explain. If we look at the hopes of future 3D Mario through the lens of being open-world, I completely agree that I would hope it doesn't go that way. Something I love about Galaxy and Sunshine's linearity is that they allow for such striking, grand set-pieces on a star/moon/shine by star/moon/shine scale. Vast indoor locations such as Hotel Delfino are rarely seen in open-world, and stars such as Heavy-Metal Mecha Bowser and Storming the Battlerock have dynamic movement and changes to their set-pieces beyond floating blocks on a track that make Odyssey's terrain seem comparatively stiff. I could see the appeal of truly open-world Mario game, but if ends up looking like Sonic Frontiers (no hate - just a vaguely visually-similar contemporary example) with tiny objectives in the form of floating platform challenges that dot a standard grassland/desert/beach landscape, I can't say I won't be disappointed.
@@AurumAlex64I’m that way too but sonic frontiers was what the sonic fan really wanted an open world sonic game for years. I can see a opening world Mario game with some platform with some move sets being from super Mario odyssey I think I can see it very good I think open world sandbox games was great like Super Mario odyssey but their wasn’t even stuff to keep the players engaged with platform as dodging obstacles lol bowser furry I think was an experiment for Nintendo to try something new at least with 3d Mario game as a whole
Heard you out but I still gotta disagree. This video seems premised on a belief in backtracking being an inherent flaw, which is an odd idea for a Mario fan. The same fanbase that plays these games over & over for decades & birthed speedruns is definitely into traversing the levels repeatedly, as long as they were fun to traverse which they endlessly are in BF. And the leave-the-set-so-we-can-set-up-your-next-challenge-here system is not only objectively ingenious from a programming standpoint but minimizes the only problem most people from what I’ve seen have with the boot-outs, which isn’t that you have to play through the fun level again but that it wastes time/momentum. My only criticisms personally would be that Fury Bowser himself gets old fast, and I missed the ability to go back to older missions, but idk my gameplay experience wasn’t hampered by any of what you’re describing. Left a like anyway though for a well-organized & presented argument
I think it’s more so the future of the games should take the aspects that made Bowser’s Fury legitimately good. • Bowser being an actual threat, the levels being interconnected, the ability to find quicker travel and having allies (Bowser Jr was really fun in the game itself) The side package has it’s short comings but given time I feel very confident these things could be ironed out. Is it the future? I actually would suggest it’s only one part of a larger picture. Imagine a game like this with the interconnectivity of odyssey and the blooming creativeness of wonder…now THAT is a Mario game I’m more than willing to soak 20-40 hours into.
When I always heard "Bowser's Fury is the Future" I never really thought people meant the open world style, instead I just assumed they meant the traditional Mario power ups in a 3D Mario game, which I exclude 3D Land and World from because despite literally having a 3rd dimension, they're still designed with the same philosophies of a 2D Mario. A Mario 64/Sunshine/Odyssey with the iconic power ups seems like such an obvious idea, that it's somewhat suprising that only Bowser's Fury and some limited time sections of Galaxy even toy with the idea. And I think viewing Bowser's Fury through this lens may shine the light on why people claim it to be more than just the little side game that it is.
This is a really great point I hadn't even considered, and is something I'm surprised took this long to do as well. I will also say that a lot of the UA-camrs I put in the opening montage straight up say Bowser's Fury is the "future" exactly because it represents a shift to an open-world style, so that's really where I got the impression from.
personally, i think there a lot of potential in a metroidvania, style Mario game where all the levels are tightly interconnected instead of being separated into their own challenges. Sure, not every game in the series should be that way, but that would be a very cool way to shake up the formula for the next one.
I think bowsers fury just shows that nintendo is tackeling the 3D Mario in open world problem. its not that bowsers fury is BOTW and the next 3D mario might be TOTK, Its that Bowsers fury is A Link Between Worlds and the next the next 3d mario might be BOTW.
I think your assertion that Bowser's Fury critical acclaim comes more from what it represents rather than what is it is a little misguided. It's not a 30 minute tech demo, it's a 4-8 hour experience that many of the people you showed reviews from probably played to 100% completion. I think your analysis of the removal of the boot-out system makes my point the best. You mention that the tedious wait times between levels in previous 3D Mario was replaced by a more or less equally tedious manual traveling system in Bowser's Fury, but that's not really what made it so exciting for people. Yes, there's a novelty to manually traveling somewhere yourself rather than picking it from a stage select menu, but what makes Fury's system feel so much more rewarding and engaging is that the numerous number of Cat Shines means there's probably something interesting to briefly distract yourself with on the way to your actually intended destination. If going from destination to destination was as mundane as more or less traveling in a straight line, it wouldn't have resonated with so many people. Yeah, you may be headed to Mount Magmeow next, but the area you completed earlier that's on the way has a new objective to complete, so you might as well take a look! Or's there a secret waterfall area conveniently right before that new area you just unlocked. That's the value so many people saw in Bowser's Fury's approach! I also disagree with your claim that most of Bowser's Fury is a mundane and repetitive experience because many objectives are repeated throughout levels. This is a criticism many people also apply to Odyssey, but what most people don't mention in their critiques is that the reason why people may fail to mention these in a review or why they enjoy it is because presenting the same objective but in a completely different environment or context is fun! That's why Bowser's Fury's constant stream of platforming is so engaging - because while you may be collecting Cat tokens for the 5th time, you're platforming across an entirely different set of platforms than you did what you last did this objective. The repeated obejctives are just a means to an end; what people actually enjoy about this system is being given an excuse to visit one of their favorite areas under an entirely different context. Why else would someone prefer this system over a game like 3D World, a game with new ideas and environments in almost every level? Of course, there's nothing wrong with preferring 3D World's more traditional approach, and you're 100% accurate in what that game's strengths were, but I think you fail to mention what I think is the obvious appeal of games like Odyssey or Bowser's Fury. In a several hour long experience where the novelty will eventually wear off, the constant stream of content that is appearing every time you 're going somewhere is inherently the appeal of a game like Odyssey or Bowser's Fury. Does that mean I disagree with you thinking a sequel to Bowser's Fury that's 20 hours longer wouldn't become repetitive? No, but Bowser's Fury being so short is inherently why the reuse of content and smaller selection of levels isn't to the game's detriment - because the game succeeds at getting just the right amount of use of these levels before knowing when to have you move on. That's not say the system is perfect (the part where you have to carry a cat across an ocean on a slippery iceberg and you're forced to restart if you drop it is awful), but there's clearly an obvious appeal with this system and it understands how to get you to engage with constant platforming and puzzles while minimizing mundane downtime. Great video overall, though! I appreciate an opposing perspective even though I obviously disagree.
I think you're right about what the appeal of the manual boot-out system is, I just wonder if the game could better guide the player to interface with it in that way. Most of the time, I treated the game like any other 3D Mario, and just stuck to one level, going back and forth until I finished all the missions. And it feels like the game even encourages this after you beat the base game, because you can just teleport to the start of the level to reset it. But this might be me stuck in my ways and not trying to meet the game where it's at.
@@AurumAlex64 Granted that 'this level will have a new objective when it is unloaded and reloaded' is *not* explicit information given to the player, I think it's clear that the player is by no means intended to "refresh" levels just for completion. The triggers by which new objectives are added are kept hidden specifically to encourage wandering, and this is the approach I took to the game. I didn't even realize there *were* new objectives being added until I happened upon them two hours or so into the game. And with this 'go with the flow' playstyle, I felt every bit of praise you levied at Fury Bowser's final encounter, but *throughout* the game, every single time he appeared. To me, bowser blocks or the golden platform were never chores to tick off a list, but either fun surprises to reward my evasion of the titular fury, or rewards for my gaining prior knowledge of them through exploration. To me, bowser blocks, level re-visits, etc. were not objectives onto themselves but tools to work toward my true objective - enjoying the game. I think the overwhelming positivity toward Bowser's Fury from so many critics speaks to how effective the game was at fostering this organic 'fun-first' approach for many people.
@@AurumAlex64 another reason for the manual boot out system is the 5 cat shines. they are the red coins of each level. but now you can get it and another shine at the same time. you don't need to leave and grab all 4 you allready grabbed later. the fury blocks was annoying, but that's analogus to secret stars that are allways availible. every level in 64 had a red coin star. but that red coin star boots you out. I just wandered, and i got the cat shines on my own terms. you don't need to grab a shine the moment fury bowser appears. fury bowser also changes levels compleatly. also i am an open world content re-use defender. In open world games, you shouldn't need to do everything to beat the game. open world games don't encorage 100% because you are never meant to grab all 1,000 koroks in tears. it's a reward for exploring. what you find may be the same, but you are still exploring a different area. it's why I'm so glad that the maps in elden ring and tears and botw never show markers of side quests or events. it becomes a checklist. and when that happens, you aren't playing the game in a way that the game is intended to be played likely. i did get every shrine in tears. but near the end of the game it started to feel like a checklist. i realize now that i was optimizeing the fun out of my expirience.
I actually like linearity if the world feels believable and charming. Pure platforming areas like some galaxies or levels in 3d world don't do much for me. For example, Honeyhive Galaxy is one of my favorite galaxies i think and it's because it feels like a place, and there is a bit to explore. But, it being Galaxy, it's not too huge
Tbh, I’ve never interpreted bowsers fury being the future of 3D Mario as an open world game. Rather, an open zone game, with 8 or more areas with the size of bowsers fury. With their own unique world gimmicks, platforming challenges, a similar moveset to odyssey but without cappy and a new gimmick instead, and just overall feeling closer to the sandbox design. Something like sonic frontiers, but being much more Mario coded, with a mix of sandbox and traditional style ways of getting the games collectible. And I don’t think emptiness would be an issue either considering this new 3D Mario very likely has had a much longer development time than either bowsers fury or odyssey, and definitely a higher budget than them. That’d give them the time and money to much better fill out the world of the next 3D Mario.
I think I've made a number of comments to the tune of 'I disagree wholeheartedly!' on this channel, but I enjoy the videos and have subscribed, so please don't take them as insults. They're not even criticisms, just disagreements, seeing such different tastes put into words can only be good for me.
No worries! I enjoy seeing everyone's different perspective as well. I've learned from this comment section that I apparently played this game in a very alien way compared to most.
i dont have anything particular to say about this video besides it was enjoyable to listen to and nice to see the gamelpay next to it. as a reformed nintendo fan i havent seen pretty much any of this and it is quite interesting to see the difference between this and your mario galaxy (a game i actually played) video. i also enjoyed the parts about open world. personally i havent enjoyed pretty much ANY open world game, tried breath of the wild and countless others since thats an extremely popular genre, but the only one i've ever actually liked was skyrim. cant say why that is, but that world feels much more "filled" than others without a constant "collectathon" going on in the background. thanks for the content
The double combo of Elden Ring and Tears of the Kingdom the past two years basically killed my interest in open-world games completely. They were both fun games, but became pretty exhausting to play by the end. I'd much rather take a focused, 10 hour experience any day of the week. But I suspect that's not gonna be the direction for the next Mario game.
There's something about how fake feeling the worlds of the more obstacle course based 3d Mario games that I find very off-putting. If the idea of these games having better gameplay is true (which it is, according to the internet's echo chamber), then I would prefer a game without these geometric courses and obviously fake worlds. I think Odyssey is really good in this way. While it does have "the island problem", it is really easy to immerse yourself in its world when you're in it. The world in Bowser's Fury is so mundane in comparison because it is all obstacle courses and there are other problems, such as the strange water, that make the world feel fake and ruins immersion.
Considering that the element that people are intrigued by has to do with how the world is structured and not stuff like the Fury and bootout mechanics themselves I fail to see how those are relevant in why this type of structure would be bad if done again? Like I really don't think it's fair to assume that another game like this would have those kinds of mechanics. Also I don't think it's fair to conflate linear games like 3D world with this because despite using the same engine their structure makes them different experiences, one is linear and the other is open ended they're not the same thing and that was never the intention. As for the issue with collectables, yes that was a major issue with Odyssey but does this game do that? Like if lots of redundant feeling collectables was a real issue for open world design than you'd think that it'd be the same for this game right? Don't agree much with this video tbh, the only part that personally gets on my goat is the complaints relating to it being more open vs linear because it makes me think of the 'it's bad because it's not what I want argument' that seems to be prevalent in game criticism. The part comparing Colour Splash to it especially felt like an offender of this, were're talking about a linear RPG vs an alinear 3D Platformer, these are two games wholly different in everything outside the superficial and comparing them feels ridiculous just on principle alone. It's alinear, it's supposed to be open ended, that's the point. Saying 3D world is better because it's 'more linear' seems like a redundant point to make considering that if I'm playing an open ended Mario game I'm not looking for linearity. Anywho I think this is an interesting direction not just for Mario but for other 3D Platformers too. I'm aware of two others with this structure, 'Wavetale' and 'The Big Catch: Tacklebox', neither are long (one's a free prologue) but both are pretty interesting in their own right. I think it's probably the most elegant way to make these kinds of games work Open World cause the level designs themselves are the content, they need to be tightly designed so having them act as their own small disconnected places to explore kinda just makes sense. It also helps to mentally separate the explorable areas from the overworld, there's a reason why they have different modes of transport in Bowser's Fury, there's Islands that act like Mario 64 levels then there's the overworld that kinda binds them all together. So like the overworld itself is only really there to facilitate that structure so both kind of need to be treated as separate things, Wavetale didn't properly create a separation between them and it made it very easy to trivialise the smaller Island areas. Sorry about the long message, guess this gave me a lot to think about.
So there are two arguments I present in this video, one in the first half and one in the second: 1. I agree that an open-world Mario game will look fairly different from Bowser's Fury. And that's because I don't think Bowser's Fury, structurally, is all that different from previous 3D Mario games. As I point out in the video, BF has a structure very similar to that of Galaxy 1 (with some extra steps), and I'm not yet convinced that adding playable space between each discrete level adds anything meaningful to the overall experience. If anything, I think there's an argument to be made that Galaxy 1 is actually _less_ linear than BF, by virtue of it having more choices of levels for the player at any one time, particularly once you get to the Bedroom and especially the Engine Room. Simply put, when people point to BF as being the "future," I don't think they're pointing to BF at all -- they're pointing to the (largely) unrelated idea of an open-world Mario game. I think Bowser's Fury is actually a far more linear game than people realize. 2. In the second part of the video, I question whether we really want an open-world Mario game based on how the trend of open-world games by major triple-A studios has been going, which in my opinion, is less than stellar. I do not think the open-worlds of the new Zelda games, Pokémon, or even Elden Ring have represented an especially profound or positive step forward for any of these franchises. They certainly have their strengths, I'm not completely dismissing them out of hand, but right now I feel the negatives outweigh the positives when it comes to open-worlds of this nature. And I think making an open-world game will be especially more difficult for Mario, a series which has predominately put a premium on fast-paced, frenetic set piece moments (hence the 3D World and Color Splash comparisons). Not to say it cannot be done well, but as I say in the video, I am skeptical.
This video took the words right out of my mouth! I've had these same exact issues with the "future of Mario" commentary since the very first time I played. It's a FANTASTIC side mode, but I know it would be a pretty tedious GAME.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who dislikes the idea of this being 3D Mario’s future. Limited theming, same few missions over and over again with little to no variation, large empty spaces between main areas. Oh but it’s one open world, which has never been appealing to me as a Mario concept. Mario is whacky, weird, a journey across varied environments that thrive on creative nonsense. Making Mario like BotW misses the point entirely. Also THAT’s why I can’t just keep collecting Shines on the same island? Yeah that’s easily the worst version of the collection system ever put in this genre. Manual boot out, what a crock.
Odyssey is the best Mario game of all time for me. However I understand people's criticisms with the moons. If you aren't enjoying enough of the moons, maybe it feels more like you are playing a grocery list instead of a game. I personally feel like most of Odyssey's moons were fine, it was really Mario's movement and the levels themselves that hooked me.
Thing is I liked too much the 120 stars from 64, Sunshine and Galaxy and the fact that each star its own unique adventure that was challenging to reach the final goal, it wasn't simply explore. That's why i thin the game that mix the best the level linear adventures from Galaxy and the exploration freedom from Odyssey was actually Sunshine having the Blue Coins, that were hidden in every world while also having linear adventures and by getting 10 of them you can get a star keeping the challenge.
lol i honestly think the majority of people do, but usually with most things negative opinions tend to be said more than positive ones. Maybe i'm just reaching tho
Also one thing no one seems to mention that hinders a new 3d mario if it were like bowser's fury is the simple fact of having a run button, small as it may be it hinders being able to platform and move the camera at the same time and just doesn't feel as good as the other 3D games. it works for more linear 3Dworld/land but not a collectathon type mario game imo
I don't like the idea of a open world mario game either, I think they should just go with something similar to what mario 64 did: there's a main hub with a bunch of different doors or little worlds to go and when you complete those places you unlock the next ones. Like you said, if they actually did go for an actual open world mario I'm completely certain it would be a flop, mario games are not like zelda and when the only goal is to collect moons or stars to get to a place the more collectables there are the worse. I like to believe that nintendo actually listened to the community and they'll try to not make this mistake but since a big mario game would easily impulse the sales of the next system I think it's pretty likely that the next mario will be pretty big in one way or the other.
I really like how your videos focus a lot on less mainstream opinions and even challenging said opinions instead of just regurgitating the same general consensus over and over again while also not antagonizing people who agree with the general consensus. I've watched this and your Color Splash, Paper Jam, and Super Mystery Dungeon videos and I've really loved your content so far, keep up the good work!
In the Mario Galaxy video, they talk about “intellectual integrity” which they describe as the idea that it's not good enough to have a good idea because it also needs to be a new one.
The problem with open world mario is that 3D mario titles are collectathons. The only purpose playing them serves is to get the things so you can get to the places, and SOMETIMES that's broken up by a boss fight or a particularly unique encounter. The solution is to either A) not make it open world at all, B) make it open zone like Sonic Frontiers (but with Fury's connectivity) with limited objectives in each connecting location and bosses/quests in major locations, C) don't make it a collectathon at all, find some other genre like Paper Mario's or Mario + Rabbids, or D) find a way to differentiate the value of collectibles so that a moon isn't both as valuable as completing a main quest, AND as worthless as kicking open a rock. This would likely look like how Sunshine had shine sprites and blue coins, or even how Tears of the Kingdom had the main quest of each region AND side quests in each one/connecting areas.
I think manual boot up is great because it encourages going to different places after another, not just staying in a single location making it staleish Whenever you got a cat shine in any given "stage" and you went to another "stage" to "boot out" did you not try to do the cat shine in the other stage you went to?
I like the items being more of a set of movements you choose between, it could make Mario a sort of Metroidvania type game where you get power ups that you can use in previous areas
I truly love Bowser's Fury. I recently replayed it and collected all 100 shines with little issue, as i was able to use bowser to get break multiple blocks before collecting one. However, every point you make is more or less without flaw. My least favorite part of Bowser's Fury is the repeating shines. To me, a Bowser's Fury-style 3D mario is open and connected, yes, but its not an open world game. My favorite part of bowser's fury was exploring the lake- the waterfall cave, the random one-off islands at the edges of the map, the bunnies, the plessie coins, and the secret tunnels with the special cat powerups. I want a game like that. The easiest game to point to is ironically the 2D zeldas of the past. Having an interconnected world doesn't mean it's part of the "open world" genre. The 2D zeldas have plenty going on in their world, but they have distinct areas with things to do. My hope for a new 3D Mario is that scale, with areas that have multiple stars/shines that *replenish eventually with other stars* after enough of the game is played to have you return, rather than booting you out, a hybrid of Odyssey's multiple moons and the classic 3D marios
Yeah, i respectfully disagree. Bowser's fury was the mario game fans like me jave been asking for. Mario was NEVER linear. It was always multiple secrets and patheays you could find in the 2s games. And i love galaxy but its more of a pick up and play type of feel rather than emgrossing you with this world. It neevr felt immersive, just cool levels to go through. Sm64, sunshine, and oddysey all felt IMMERSIVE. They all still felt like Mario but these games let players have a but more freedom. Nobody has played sm64, oddysey or even sunshine the exact same way. But we all have played gakaxy 1-2, 3d world/land the same way. For me, linear mario is more like crash than mario. I also feel like they've kind of done all they can with linearity. SM wonder was great but the levwl design was new. It just had more care put inro than the new super mario bros. But yeah, i loved bowsers Fury and i do think its the natural evolution of rhe franchise. It combines odyssey with 3d world which is what i hope for the future of the franchise
I can't disagree with this more! I love pretty much everything you don't like. 😅 I like how you present things, but my goodness, some of this I don't understand! I LOVE planning for Bowser, I love linear levels with tonnes of objectives! And I think it does tonnes different in great ways!
Oh, don't get me wrong, I like planning for Bowser as well! I just thought it became a little too routine over time, less "plan out a strategy," and more "check this item off the box." That's why the ending part was such a pleasant surprise, it made me think on my feet a little.
Wow, so it's true that UA-camrs just parrot each other the same way all the mainstream news networks used to(or probably still do) more or less word for word. Its like any topic, movie review, game review, current event, and everyone hops on the trend. Also, i disagree with a lot here. Having a repetition of goals such each level having 5 shards to collect is common to all mario games. You need to have a mix of new goals and familiar goals on each stage. It sounds like you or perhaps "the average video essayist" is complaining that it gets boring being a completionist? Or its boring being a repeat completionist?
I'd love to see an open world 3D Mario game. The criticisms against Odyssey having too many moons and it suffering from open world fatigue have never resonated with me all that much, personally. A few less wouldn't hurt, that's fair, but I don't think it subtracts anything, really. Similarily, I do not agree that an open world 3D Mario would neccessarily have to be more slow-paced. In fact, I think that this is exactly where Mario would differ from games like Zelda or Elden Ring, because as a platformer, it has (or at the very least should strive to have) movement which is interesting by itself. I imagine an open world where Odyssey-sized courses are strewn about - not too far from each other, mind you - with the spaces between filled with some hills and ledges to jump over, so that travelling between stages becomes a fun activity in itself, like the hub worlds of Peach's Castle, Delfino Plaza or the Comet Observatory. And this is where I think repetition shines, as it does in a Metroidvania game. Getting yourself familiar with an area by traversing it multiple time should be part of the appeal, not a detractor. Backtracking is often seen as a bad thing whereas I think there are so many cases where it can be used to great effect, and having satifying movement overall is a major key to it. Of course, I think this world should not be as vast as BotW for example, and much more dense at that. Spaces between proper "levels" should not be any larger than what Odyssey's Sand Kingdom has. The whole issue with the boot-out system wasn't a problem in Odyssey either, so I they should take more clues there as opposed to Bowser's Fury when designing objectives.
I'm sort of hesitant of the idea of a Open World Mario game too, but I do have the feeling that it's likely going to happen at some point. I definitely think that "Open World Mario" would definitely drive up buzz, and may even potentially as massive to the public like the announcement of GTA 6. It's hard to directly say that Bowser's Fury was explicitly a test for an open world Mario game, (with the game partly developed by NST as opposed to 3D Mario's usual EPD-8), but I do think that the next 3D Mario taking influence from Fury is very likely. The closest comparison currently to the concept of an Open World Mario is Sonic Frontiers, but playing through the game was admittedly a chore, from the really weird/convoluted main structure, as well as the world itself not really being that fun or interesting to explore. Probably not the fairest comparison considering Sega's overall treatment of Sonic Team, but it's still the closest comparison one can make. If they were to do a Open World Mario, I think it's potentially possible to take what Bowser's Fury does and make it unique. Let's say, mix the concept of Fury Bowser with E.M.M.I from Metroid Dread, Mario (and Luigi maybe) are teleported to a mysterious new land because Koizumi said so, and as opposed to waiting for Fury Bowser to spawn, I think a more interesting approach would to potentially have a force or corps of some kind who prove to be initially invincible threats who will not stop to take down the plumber. They can appear anywhere, anytime perhaps. Perhaps maybe like Guardians from BOTW, where you can beat them, but it's nigh impossible at the start. I think what could also benefit an Open World Mario is still having loads of towns/cities to explore with their own unique NPCs to make the world feel alive, as opposed to how barren most open worlds are. I think a way to *maybe* fix the Odyssey Moon Problem in some compacity is maybe having a main collectible hierarchy. The "mindless" moon equivalent equals 1, while the major bosses can grant you up to 10 maybe. And of course specific challenge arenas and more puzzles would range. I'm not sure how much that would "fix" the issue considering you'd still have more mindless ones, but I think it would be something at least to make every collectable you have not so draining. And finally, if all goes sour, I at least hope they'll pull a Sonic Frontiers and give us 40 or so high quality "Course Clear" stages that are up to quality with 3D World, where you also have other minor objectives to get main collectibles. So that way, most people can still get what they want with 3D Mario.
I think what i expirenced with bowsers fury is that when i finished one level in one area is that the finishing area was near a new level in a new area.
Very well-thought analysis of what most people missed when discussing the gameplay of Fury, there's just one small add-on that should have been mentioned on 3D World. While you already said how 3D World's level and world gameplay structure highlights the issue with repetition in the open-world genre, one of the issues I dislike the most just further proves the point, especially for 100%-ing. WHY THE HELL DO I NEED TO PLAY EACH GODDAMN LEVEL WITH EACH CHARACTER JUST TO GET THE CHARACTER'S STAMP?! THEY'RE THE CENTRAL FOCUS OF THE ENTIRE GAME AND SOMEHOW I'M FORCED TO REPEATEDLY COMPLETE EACH LEVEL IN A TOTAL OF 5 TIMES JUST TO COLLECT THEM! Also why Plessie was extremely fun to cruise around in the lake, the mention of Jaxi as a worse controllable character literally used for challenges (Moons) where the main difficulty is the controls further undermines this 'travel-issue'.
Yes, the character requirements for 3D World is one of the worst completion requirements they've ever made. I'm not sure what value they thought it added to the game, it didn't need it.
Bit off topic but saying that everymoon in odyssey after the normal amount is dumb You could say that with Mario 64, Galaxy with every single one Especially with sunshine And if you just wanna get through this game that's good But like if you enjoy these games and if you collect more than you need you probably do It's amazing having so much content Especially Mario Sunshine with the blue coins they don't have that much of a practical use but damnnn They add so much and it's one of those games I just don't want to end And odyssey is the same There may be a bunch of stuff to do but it's fun stuff even if filler Cause it's a fun game
The best way to go in my opinion is combining mario odyssey's huge moveset and enemy posession system along with storing power ups in bowser's fury. also we can have enemies that resemble lumas or fludd to reintroduce galaxy or sunshine movesets and gravity gameplay. basically i think that you can kidnap enemies for later use like in mgsv by having yoshi or cappy eat them or something, nintendo can make this power up storage the same as botw or totk. this can make Nintendo go all out on the level design and puzzles, which can make moons start to require way more thinking and skill, since you'd always have special enemies to posess stored and available, rather than being just a one time gimmick for a single puzzle I think that even if that storage is too overpowered, it can be balanced by using the boot out system to "empty up" the storage, maybe you can pick up the lost items later like in dark souls. you'd need different combinations of power ups and enemy movesets to get through different puzzles for moons rather than only relying on the basic movesets with minimal thinking, Nintendo can draw inspiration from majora's mask, which basically lets link use different masks at all times.
Sounds like you just don’t like to 100% open world games tbh, which is fair but if your gonna try and do something like that, you have to go in with the understanding that doing everything in an entire world of a game is going to be tediously, no matter how you design it
I really agrre with this video. I liked Bowser's Fury, but I liked it cuz it was a side game. If a full Mario game was made to be similar to this, I think it would be extremely boring. I don't know what I want out of the next Mario game, but I hope it's not a big map with either nothing to do, or so many things to do that it's repetitive and unfun. People got a little bit too excited about no loading zones
Calling Bowser's Fury the future of 3D Mario to me rings the same as saying every Nintendo console going into the future will be a switch. It makes perfect sense given our current scope, but how far into the future can anyone really see? Before the NX was revealed, many people were predicting Nintendo were definitely going to start making phones; that's how the future looked to be going to people in 2015. Years before that, no one thought of Nintendo's home console and handheld being the same. Now it's all we can think about. Future technology can't be predicted, and neither can future game design. Aonuma's comments about not wanting to go back to linear Zelda might seem more damning, but at the same time, his team is likely not even thinking about the Zelda that comes after the one they're working on now. They have no concept of what the tech will be, or what consumers will want in the 6 years between now and when they even start on the next game. It's often lost on most people that getting one 3D Mario per console is the standard. The 64 had one. GameCube had one. Wii had two which was the sole exception. DS, 3DS, Wii U, and Switch all had one. Each one sold fantastically, revered by all, yet none ever had an impact past one successor. So maybe the next 3D Mario on the switch 2 will be like Bowser's fury. But the next one after that, on the Switch 3? Or Switch 4? Who knows. And you can say that for everything about the future.
Now I still like the game but something feels much slower about the game one thing i really dislike is plessie she doesnt feel that fast it feels really tedious by an hour in a half in the games run time and the bowsers gimmick became more annoying as the game progressed started as a cool spectacle i still like the game and love the cat theme but I would really prefer a different route!
I feel like the linear levels of this game and fury bowser are part of the experiment of this game that likely won't return and if this game is the future, it's only in the regard of no loading screens and every area existing in an open traversable space
Y'know, something that I think has kind of warped my brain recently is that there currently exists only one Nintendo Console. For generations, it felt like there was "The Main Console" and "The Handheld One", and with them came certain expectations. We would want "The Major Console" to produce a game that took full benefit of its hardware. We can make a 2D mario on the handheld, so naturally we should have a 3D Mario on the console since you can't DO that on a handheld. What should 3D Mario be like? Well, he should do 3D things! Things you couldn't do in 2D. So I think exploration becomes a key factor in these, and its easy to see how we can lean towards the sandbox route. When games like 3D World came out, it slapped but I faintly recall the sentiment that it lacked ambition. Especially now that Wonder exists; what can 3D World do that Wonder can't? What does the third dimension add to the game? And now we have just the Switch, and now it has major releases in both 2D and 3D. So now, when a Mario game releases, there is an artistic statement it makes if it decides to be 2D or 3D, it is not a give-in. I think there IS an argument to be made that making Mario open-world is just an arbitrary demand of what we think a "Major Game" should look like. But, if we are saying another 3D Mario should be made, for the sole reason that there must be a 3D Mario, then I guess I would say yeah, I'd rather it be like Odyssey, or Banjo Kazooie. It is a different experience than the 2D one, since its a far more relaxed and easy-going experience, and I'd be more inclined to take advantage of that fact. For me, Mario Odyssey and Bowsers Fury (which I never played tbh lmao I'm just a fan of the channel and running out of videos to watch 🥺) are already both open world experiences, whereas even very similar ones like 64 and Sunshine are not. Being told to "Race Koopa the Quick" on a menu is a very different feeling from that of exploring Bob-Omb Battlefield at your own pace and running into him. In one of the benefits of the latter case, I think the player would feel more free to disengage with a potentially more high-stress activity than what they had in mind. Once the race starts, just take a few jumps to the left and find something else to do. I always feel like this thought process seems alien to a 100% completionist but to a child or to my hamster brain this invites an entirely different flow of the game that makes casual play feel quick and natural. After all, choice doesn't quite matter as much if we view the entire game as content to be inevitably completed anyway. "The Future is Uncertain"- this is a very valid concern. The sandbox genre does not instantly mean giant open fields with nothing to do in them, and we can see games like Banjo Kazooie or Morrowind from the Elder Scrolls series which have imo a whole bunch of fun stuff in arms reach generally. But the reality is that both of those franchises had sequels valuing BIGGER locales, and the biggering problem has continued to this day, even Zelda and Pokemon are getting in on it as you mentioned in the video. It'll be interesting to see where we go from here for sure
I think my core issue with open-world games is not necessarily giving me open fields with nothing to do, but making sure what's actually there to do feels meaningful. The caves and catacombs were fine when I played Elden Ring the first time, but every time I think about replaying that game, never once do I consider redoing them. If I do replay Elden Ring, it will probably be limited to the major dungeons. And it just feels bad to me that a game would have so much disposable stuff in it, when it could be funneled into the stuff that's actually enjoyable. This probably explains why I vastly prefer the Galaxy games and 3D world -- games which edge away from sandbox exploration -- over 64 and Sunshine. I think the heavily structured platforming of the former group makes for a more consistently engaging experience than say, combing for blue coins in Gelato Beach or waiting for boats in Delfino Plaza (amongst many other less-than-fun things in Sunshine). But even games like Odyssey can pack a ton of variety in a dozen plus sandbox kingdoms than an open world can even when carving itself into multiple regions. So, I dunno, I still remain deeply skeptical of an open-world Mario. Mostly because I've realized that I just don't love the open world genre as much as I wanted to.
Wow. This video is incredible. It gives a detailed explanation of the problems you have with the game, a clear, methodical and orderly train of thought, and a thesis that ties everything together in a cohesive message. You deserve far more subscribers and success you have.
No you ain’t wrong just beat it a month ago. It’s pretty meh. Especially if you play through 3d world first and then go into browser fury. 3D world felt like an epic fun adventure.. browser fury felt like a choir… I’m sorry but that’s how I felt
Dont know if You'll see this but ive never seen videos that resonate with my thoughts on games more than yours, between this and your Galaxy 2 video Its nice seeing someone go in depth on the mario games. Great stuff👍
@@AurumAlex64 No worries, I scrolled through the comments before saying this to see if anyone else had pointed it out and was astounded to learn that it slipped under the radar for this long. Great video, just found your channel and I've been enjoying your content!
My own view on Bowser's Fury is that it was moreso an experiment with features that probably *wouldn't* work as a full game (mainly the whole Fury Bowser gimmick that I deem a net negative to the experience), just a little novelty product that made the most of what it had. I had a fun time with it, but I would probably get sick of it if it was a full length game. The whole item storage thing gave me the idea of a Mario metroidvania though so that's a plus.
Nintendo can do a whole lot with an open world mario: - tons of unique, vibrant areas to explore with platforming sections blended into the whole world - enemies of course but also more hazardous and interfering enemies that are out on patrol perhaps at night(airships with headlights shining down, if they see Mario, cannonballs rain down) - bosses within different areas of the world that progress the story(perhaps only one certain boss at a time is accessible to strengthen the story and not make the game feels like a typical Mario fetch quest) Etc. you get my point
@@TicTacToeCraft perhaps Mario accesses a small airship that he hijacks from some shy guys and you can design it however you want. Or maybe they bring back cosmic Mario, the red and black one that can fly in galaxy 1 in the last galaxy
I have the same criticizm as you with Bowser's Fury. I like this "side-package" a lot, but waiting for Bowser kills the pace and definetly the worst part of the game in my opinion. But I would absolutely *LOVE* to see an open world-Mario-Game, too. But I really want it to be *fully* open world. Not like Bowser's Fury where you had to unlock specific areas. I think it would be awesome if it was like BotW or TotK, so that everything is accessible right from the beginning, but of course with the great Mario-Movement. And the movement should be complete at the start in my opinion. I hear many people who want something like a skill-tree, but this just wouldn't fit in a Mario-Game. I've always loved about Mario-Games that you have every move right from the very beginning. You don't become faster or jump higher while progressing. This would just kill platform-challenges, and you definitley need them in a platformer-game. And I don't want to have to learn the Triple-Jump for example. I want to be able to do it from the very beginning. I would make the main-collectible make something like this: You can go whereever you want in every possible order in this world, except of the final boss. Bowser is behind a great gate and the player needs to build some kind of weapon (a big hammer for example) in order to break the gate and enter the final boss. So you can actually explore Bowser's castle instantly, but you can't go to Bowser (or the main antagonist, it doesn't have to be Bowser). Every main boss has a specific element which you need to build this weapon. So you have to defeat every main boss and beside this collect many of the main-collectibles (but not every) to enter the final boss and beat the game. Or you need just 4 of the 7 (for example) main bosses and the main-collectibles. Or they make it like in the newest Zelda-Games and you can instantly go to Bowser (or whoever or whatever the main antagonist will be), but I would prefer the former idea. And there should be some collectibles that are just there, but they aren't important in sense of beating the game. Like the Purple Coins in Mario Odyssey or the Korogs in BotW and TotK. Many little things that make exploring worth it and gives you a smile on your face. 😊 In general I would make it like it was Mario Odyssey, but every world is in one place and you can go to them in every possible order. The player decides. These are some of my ideas to this, and I think a fully open world-Mario-Game, if done right, would be the ultimate videogame. 😍 Great video!
I'm definitely a lot more cynical when it comes to an open-world Mario game, but I'd definitely still be curious to see what they might have cooking up!
Before finishing this, I'm going to answer one of your first major questions with the point you brought up immediately after asking it- What does Bowser's Fury bring to the table? Well as you said, it's not all too different from any other 3D mario title, where you unlock a series of hubs that you travel between and complete in any order until you meet the star requirement to go to the next one.... except Bowser's Fury is the only one where you can just directly travel between them, and the hubs themselves exist in the same larger world. Galaxy 1 and 2 use a UI and a loading zone to travel to levels, Super Mario Sunshsine uses a loading zone and a UI, Super Mario 64 uses a loading zone then a UI, Odyssey requires the odyssey, so a loading zone and a UI, 3D world has a playable world map, but it isn't playable in the same way (you have limited moveset, can't travel freely), and it STILL uses a loading zone and UI to go between everything. Bowser's Fury is the only game that does the same thing as those other ones without breaking up the otherwise continuous gameplay experience with a loading zone and a UI element hiding the fact that Mario just magically teleported from the hub world to the level, because they're the same thing.
That could be cool. I'd rather just each kingdom actually have content and not just be bosses (some of them were) and maybe more fleshed-out missions for the main game and not all the post game moons that are just for challenge. Also don't make moons buyable that was kinda dumb
This "open-world platformer" thing just doesn't work. I felt it with Banjo-Kazooie, I felt it with Odyssey (to a lesser extent because the movement was so good), and I felt it with Bowser's Fury.
The one thing that I despised was it doesn't take an experienced player long to beat. What I noticed is that on my first blind playthrough it took me about 30 minutes to complete which was an accident then my second run with amiibo took me about 25 minutes to any percent but 30 to 100 percent
Every Mario game should let you play as Cat Peach, this is what the future of Mario games should be.
This is correct
This is what people really mean when they say this game is Mario’s future
Real
Every game should let you play as Cat, this is what the future of games should be
Every game should let you play, this is what the future of games should be
I see what you're saying with the boot out system, however it's clearly designed in a way to make you rotate between stages instead of finishing them in a single go.
Hearing that, it’s honestly a bit antithetical to how I play 3D mario games. I usually jump into a world, 100% it where possible and then move on to the next. I’m open to the idea of a system like this (comets in galaxy handled it quite well), but it’d be jarring being forced to go from one level to the next, just to go back to the previous level for what’s effectively a green star with more content.
THANK YOU.
I do not like that kind of system in a mario game. I want to sandbox an area, do all the things, and then move onto the next.
@@xuto2693but you'd never do it that way doing the main campaign in any Mario game. You always have to return if you want 100% completion
The biggest thing that I want for future games is actually Bowser's Fury's powerup system and infinite storage. Powerups in standard 3D Mario games have always been temporary and situational, so it was super cool to have access to plethora of traditional powerups, especially ones that made platforming easier
Yeah, I agree, it's kinda surprising that a 3D Mario game has never done this before.
having an inventory of powerups and using specific ones for the situation it calls for is amazing
@@AurumAlex64 Well, I guess 3DLand and and 3DWorld do have them
I'd like something like SMG2, where you still have an HP system but you lose the power-up after getting hit
And have the action button become the power-up button or dedicate a specific button to it
Or maybe just not have an action button gimmick until you get a power-up
I agree as long the progression is metroidvania. Otherwise I will just use the same powerups for the entire game which would be boring.
You say that Bowser's Fury is most similar to Mario 64, but I feel like there's another mario game that makes a lot more sense here: Mario Sunshine. Bowser's Fury resembles Sunshine both in a bunch of superficial ways (Bowser Jr. appearing and using his magic brush, a tropical theme, collectibles being "shines," the main hazard being polluting goop), and in that sunshine was the first game to attempt to sell the player on a seamless world. Though each level is separated similar to 64, the game is built in a way where they're all meant to take place on one map, and you can see other levels in the distance even if you can't physically go there. Bowser's fury is like this idea being fully realized 20 years later, now that the technology and developers have come far enough to pull it off. But at the same time, they clearly knew they couldn't just make a game like sunshine and fill in the area between levels with empty terrain players had to run through.
I'm not sure what the next game will look like, but I think this interconnectedness is something the devs are wanting to go for. And at the same time, I think they're keenly aware of it's weaknesses. A game like bowser's fury is the perfect test bed for them to see what worked and what didn't, and apply what they learned to whatever game comes next.
I don't think I agree. All of your practical issues with the game can be solved by easy means:
1. Too much filler content - Nintendo overstuffed Odyssey with moons to justify the 60$ price tag. That was an unfortunate mistake. Short games can justify a full price if they are replayable. That said, when I ask for an open-world Mario game, I don't ask for a 100+ hour adventure with plenty of "side-content" to distract from the "main-content". I ask for a short game with a lot of freedom. A Bowser's Fury like Mario game with 300-400 cat shines that lasts about 10 hours on a normal playthrough, and about 20 hours when going for 100% completion doesn't sound too long or exhausting.
2. The manual boot-out system - I did notice the inconvenience of needing to step far away from 1 island and than coming back. However, I didn't mind it because it's clear to me the devs wanted you to go to a different island and do a mission there instead to prevent the feeling of repetition by doing all missions in 1 island in a row.
As far as potential improvements go, I'd suggest 2 options:
A. Every time you complete a main mission on an island, you get a message that says "The island seems to be about to change. Do you want to wait for it to happen"?
If you answer no, you just keep on playing like Bowser's Fury, where you can still roam on that island to collect more stuff, and in order for the island to change you need to do the manual boot-out.
If you answer yes, you are sent back to the beginning of the island, and the island itself is already changed. That way, you can keep the pace going. And if you think constantly being asked the same question will get exhausting, that's where my 2nd option steps in:
B. Add in a toggle in the options menu that sets the game into a specific function every time you complete a main mission. That way, whether you want the island to change immediately or do a manual boot-out, you can set the toggle to your preferred option.
I'm honestly convinced both options can co-exist in the game.
3. Repetitive Fury Bowser shines - Yes, I too felt the repetition of these in the post game when going for 100%. However, a simple solution is to minimize their density within the game's overall content. Bowser's Fury has more than 20 of these out of 100. That's over 20%. But how about a game where these kinds of shines are merely 5% of the game? This sounds a lot more bearable. If the game does end up having 300-400 shines like I suggested in point 1, that means we'll have about 15-20 Fury Bowser shines. That's less or about as much as in Bowser's Fury, but with much less down-time since you can do plenty more missions for shines in between.
To further alleviate this issue, I'd suggest giving players an option to reawaken Fury Bowser at will. Apparently, you can already do that via a Bowser amiibo, but not everyone is interested in spending additional 50$ on a doll that adds 1 helpful QoL function. A good compromise to satisfy both those who own the amiibo and those who don't will be to keep the option to reawaken Fury Bowser at will only for the post game.
And that's P much it. As long as Nintendo won't overstuff the game, and add a few more QoL functions to streamline the game, a bigger Bowser's Fury game will be excellent, without falling into the pitfalls of other open world games.
I like these solutions. I think my problem is I'm somewhat pessimistic about Nintendo actually implementing these solutions, particularly number 1. It seems to me that the modis operandi of big triple-A open world games is to go as big as possible; I just can't see them going smaller scale with Mario, especially since we already have precedent with Odyssey.
@@AurumAlex64 That I'm definitely worried about. I don't want another game where 50% of the McGuffins are "ground stomp the floor at a specific location" or "talk to someone".
It's partly why I prefer Sonic Frontiers over Mario Odyssey. All the activities feel somewhat substantial and viable for progression, but without feeling like filler content meant just to overstuff the game.
However, I AM interested in Bowser's Fury being the future of 3D Mario. The idea of mixing the 2 styles of Mario gameplay (course-clear and sandbox) into 1 game is really great. With the right touch-ups and Nintendo learning what their audience really wants (and not what they THINK their audience wants), a bigger Bowser's Fury can easily be a contender for the best Mario game.
I agree with you that 3D World is the best Mario game though. That game has such a fantastic pace and so many fun and creative levels.
@@roiitzkovich4545Honestly I don’t even care about simple tasks so long as the rewards are adjusted to be more fitting and less intrusive. Looking at Odyssey, maybe super easy tasks would give you single moons that don’t interrupt you with a little cutscene, bigger tasks like sub-areas give you double moons with a quick cutscene, story moons would be triple moons, and major boss moons and the like would be full moons equating to five. That way you still get big numbers, but it’s clear that tasks have different values, and you aren’t stopped every time you do incredibly basic tasks.
@@thevioletbee5879 I guess that's a decent solution. However, speedrunners will likely still go for the simple tasks mostly because, despite giving you only 1 McGuffin, they are done quickly and overall save time.
Moreover, the issue regarding content density will not be solved. If you keep all the missions in the game intact, but make some of them worth more moons than before, that'll merely result in more moons in total. When going for 100% completion, you'd still have to get all of these "ground stomp a specific location" or "talk to someone" moons. People already analyzed all the moons in Odyssey and it turns out more than 50% of the game's missions are the simple tasks that barely require any platforming (if at all).
I think a bigger Bowser's Fury game should go for less McGuffins, but with almost all of them being normal sized missions. I want a platformer where almost all of the McGuffins feel like rewards for platforming missions.
I speculate that a possible reason for people wanting Bowser's Fury to be the future of 3D Mario is the combination of the 2D Mario power-up system with the 3D Mario collectable structure
I mean, Galaxy did that already, and you could argue that Odyssey captures were the replacement of power ups
@@chinkramGalaxy only had limited time power-ups. The power-ups in Bowser's Fury are permanent, so Galaxy did no such thing.
@@chinkram they were only used when the level called for it
@@chinkramnot at all
I guess that's one of the reasons Galaxy became my favorite Mario game in the franchise. It's fast paced nature and fun controls just made for one of the best games I've ever played! I really liked Mario Odyssey, and at the time of it's release, thought that no other game could top it, but when 3D All Stars released and I played Galaxy, I was proven DEAD wrong! When playing through Odyssey, especially now after all the hype of "THE NEW MODERN MARIO GAME!!" has worn completely off after 8 years (Still can't believe it's been almost a decade after Odyssey released along with the Switch) it's really easy to see how that game is flooded with worthless moons that are boring to collect, along with the game feeling a bit slower that previous Mario games because of it. Galaxy is one of the best Mario games, and if any game in the Mario franchise deserves to be the franchise's future, IT'S THAT!!
Sorry, long comment. I'm just really passionate about Galaxy!!
what I love about super mario 3D world, and one of the things I think it does so well, is that it's *not* a traditional 3D mario game. it's a traditional 2D mario game, in 3D.
It’s definitely not traditional to 2d Mario considering it has shines/stars which are a trend of 3D Marios
@@stevenmcburney8167 did you mean the green stars? or were you talking about bowser's fury?
@@champagnesupernova1839 no I mean the cat shines which are similar to the stars you collect in 64 and galaxy
@@stevenmcburney8167 the cat shines are part of bowser's fury, not original super mario 3d world, which is what I was *talking* about, if you would care to read my actual comments.
@@champagnesupernova1839 you said it’s a traditional 2d Mario game in 3D because of the power ups and I’m saying it’s still a traditional 3D Mario game because of the star/shines/cat shines missions
imo an open world Mario game could work, but Nintendo would have to know what they're doing. Personally I think it would have worked beautifully if Super Mario Sunshine were open world. All of the levels are already on the same island and visible from each other, the turbo nozzle for FLUDD could help lessen travel time, and it solves the problem of too many collectibles by having the blue coins not be worth as much. If Mario Odyssey had replaced a lot of its moons with something similar to SMS blue coins it would have gotten rid of that issue
My biggest problem with Bowsers Fury is the story. It has to be the most missed potential story of any Mario game. Bowser jr and Mario working together on a journey to save Bowser because he’s gone crazy is such an interesting premise and there’s so much they could’ve done with it, but they just chose not to do anything with it. I know it’s a mainline Mario game and those aren’t really known for having interesting stories, but the mist potential missed potential is very noticeable
Banger Video! Super Mario 3D world is absolutely the best or at least top 3 Mario games ever. Mario is at its best when it injects the fun, imaginative set pieces DIRECTLY into your veins with little or minimal delay. it's why I prefer galaxy 2 over Galaxy 1, I'm here to play fun levels above everything else
I think this is the reason I prefer Galaxy 2 over 1 as well, the more variety there is in my Mario game, the happier I am
So many of these criticisms fundamentally misunderstand or ignore the intentions behind the choices the developers made. The "bootout" system in bowser's fury is obviosuly there to encourage exploration and not letting you finish each level in a single playthrough. That's why there are activities within the world map that will quickly guide you from one level to another, like the plessie time challenges or bunny hunts. You're not meant to exit the level then re-enter it. If you play that way and get frustrated at the game that's on you.
I see this particular argument a lot in this comments section, but I'm not sure I really understand it: what would be the harm in the game allowing me to do all the missions in a stage consecutively? People say it's to prevent repetition, but I've played all of the other 3D games like this, and they have never gotten repetitive to me. Having to exit a level, do a shine in another level, then revisit the previous level is not really any better than what we had before: it's just the same boot-out system we've always had, only with extra steps. Doing the missions in each level is supposed to be the fun part of the game, so it could only become repetitive to me if the missions themselves weren't very interesting in the first place, regardless of how spaced apart they end up being.
@@AurumAlex64 As I mentioned, there are challenges in the overworld that guide you from one island to the next, encouraging you to move from island to island. These all guide you to different shines you can get or new/previously visited islands.
You're actively deciding not to engage with the world's design, that's on you not the developers.
Maybe if so many people are commenting similar sentiments you should take a look back at your weak criticism instead of thinking everyone else is wrong lol.
My ideal future is just another game like Odyssey, but fixing the issues it has. Flesh out the worlds a bit, prioritize main game content rather than post game, and make moons stuff you have to earn through missions and then make perhaps another type of collectable the stuff like herding the sheep or whatever. A hub world would be nice, but its system of moving between kingdoms worked for me. I'd personally prefer more explorable areas in the kingdoms rather than those cappy challenges or whatever, but that's just me ig
This is actually up there with my favorite marios. Power up inventory is awesome. Plus no time limits. Hate when devs try to limit my fun.
the future of 3D mario really makes you feel like batman
Question for AurunAlex, what do you want for the next 3d Mario? I agree that open world mario is not the solution and only accentuates the many problems I have with Odyssey such as the game having waay to many moons(999 to be specific)while other 3D Mario,s had around 120-240 stars/shines and the fact that Odyssey just feels really rushed to me.
Odyssey had 816 moons and was not rushed. Super Mario 64 and Sunshine were, but Odyssey not.
@@TicTacToeCraftI agree that i did say Odyssey was rushed, whih is false but you can in fact buy from the various shops moos until you get up to 999, which unlocks a secret ending where a cap lands on Peach,s castle.I also think that ending is worse than the postcard at the end of sunshine.800 plus moons is still to much compared to pevious games and even more padding than the 240 blue coins, 120 green stars, super Luigi galaxy, 3d land,s Special worlds or TTYD,s infamous backtracking.
@@theothenintendomaster3717 I'd rather collect all of Odyssey's moons ten times than find and collect all of Sunshine's cryptic blue coins without a guide.
@@TicTacToeCraft I respect your thoughts, I just think that Odyssey,s formula could be improved and that Open World Mario is not the solution.
Great analysis but why would you jumpscare me with Joseph Andersond's profoundly horrid and bad faith Odyssey analysis
I mean it's Nintendo, their future has never looked worse
8:19 on my fastest glitchless 100% speedrun, it took me less then 3 hours
can be but shouldn't be mainly
what people really want is just the great cave offensive but in 3D
Completionist jumpscare
Mario: 8:50
This game was terrible, I've only tried it once, I was a little Bowser baby thing, the camera constantly kept moving away from me meaning I was just constantly offscreen, it did not make for a fun two-player experience, even after we found out about camera controls, because it turns out the camera takes the same controls as some movement options, plus two players have to share a single camera.
I don't think the game was really designed with the 2-player-mode in mind. I can assure you the game is fun when you play it on your own.
@@TicTacToeCraft I don't play 1 player games, they seem like they're just a waste of time.
@@flameofthephoenix8395 Alright, then don't play Bowser's Fury if you're not into it.
@@flameofthephoenix8395while I prefer multiplayer games, you can't really dock Bowser's Fury because it's a collectathon Mario experience which are always designed for single player play
@@Stratilex What is a "Collectathon?"
I think I finally found out why I don't like open world games, like botw, they're too slow, takes forever to get anywhere, too repetitive, and don't usually have much variety. I love mario games, especially 3d world, because they're fast paced, have a lot of variety between levels, and there is a clear objective.
I honestly find it weird how when I first saw 3d world, I hated it because it was way more linear than the previous games, and it had a timer, but now it's one of my favorite games.
There are a lot more positive aspects to the manual boot out system than you give it credit for. When I get to the top of a tower in Bowser's Fury, I not only am awarded with a shine, but also a gorgeous view of the world and a look down at everything I went through to get there. There's a great feeling of satisfaction you get from seeing the obstacles you've overcome behind you, and a feeling of wonder you get from looking at all the new ones you have in store in the distance. With the manual boot out system, I can use the end of a level as a vantage point to naturally look at the different parts of the map and make a choice about what I want to do next. It takes what is normally a segmented process of: finish a level, go out to the overworld/menu, look at the options; and changes it to finish a level, look at the options, travel there. There's something so much more natural about that which keeps me engrossed in the game world. It makes it feel less like a hard cut between gameplay and level select, and more of a natural flow between different aspects of gameplay. Another thing I think it does well is save me from my own completionist nature. While in this video you see having to leave the level and re-enter to reset it as a downside and a tedious way to get to the next challenge in that area, I see it as a suggestion by the developers: Go somewhere else, try a different area, explore. You had to make the journey to this new area to reset the shine anyway, so why not just do a mission here instead? In most Mario games I do what I assume you do as well, go to a world, complete each mission in a row, then move onto the next one. I assume that's how most people played these games. But Bowser's Fury specifically tries to steer you away from doing that by making it easier and more fulfilling to go to a different level than to reset the one you're currently on. And what I've found is that's the more fun way to play anyway! You get variety that is always tuned somewhat to your preferences because YOU choose where to go. It also fixes the problems you have of going through the same challenges over and over again with minor tweaks, because in practice you won't be returning to that level for a while and the by the time you do you'll be re-learning its gimmick and layout a bit. In a normal automatic boot out system, where you're taken back to the start of the level or a hub, you're encouraged to go right back in to where you were last time as to not leave it unfinished, which leads to large chunks of similar gameplay. In Bowser's Fury, you're encouraged to do the opposite: seek out variety and vary what shines you're collecting.
This is a really interesting way of looking at it, and you're definitely right about me playing the stages sequentially in older Mario titles. It will definitely require a recalibration to not just go out and right back into the same level, but I think it's worth a try. Although I do feel the game somewhat undermines this idea after you beat the game initially, because then you can just teleport directly to the level's entrance, resetting it in the process.
@@AurumAlex64As someone that doesn’t play Mario games like this and instead already does what the game encourages by jumping to from level to level and not sticking too long on one I didn’t even know or consider the manual boot out aspect because I was always focused on the shines I could already see and by the time I made it back to the area I was before it had already reset. for me the fast travel system was only used near the end when you couldn’t find the shrines everywhere and you needed to go to specific areas, I never considered resetting the area because there was never a need to, the next shine was always somewhere to be found close by
I know everyone hates Sunshine Blue coins, but i personally believe if Odyssey had brought them back, and all the ground pound moons and other thoughtless ones were blue coins instead, the game would be vastly improved because there would be a delineation between the value of objectives
The purple coins *almost* solved the problem, but didn't
I think Odyssey is the best 3D Mario
To fix the issue of too many moons, I would have the “lesser” moons be a different collectable, or have Stars be the major collectable and moons be secondary
So the player would know the meaty content is for the stars, and the less substantial content would be the moons
I don’t want open world Mario, the open zone style is the right choice imo
I agree with you completely
The thing you're describing are essentially the multi-moons. That's their purpose.
@@alessioprotopapa4709 no, because single moons still add to the moon counter. So you ground pound three glowy bumps and boom you got the equivalent of beating a boss. The moon issue doesn't bother me to be honest though I still really like Odyssey
@@alessioprotopapa4709 that’s true, but it doesn’t really have the same impact as a “greater” collectible
If you get 100 coins for smaller tasks and 300 coins for “main” tasks it doesn’t feel like “oh wow this is substantial” it feels like “okay more coins I already have a million”
The stars could serve their own purpose functionally too like opening doors in Mario 64
Moons could’ve been the main collectible, it’s just that when there are so many it starts to dilute the experience, even if it’s just a perception issue
If I give you a pizza once a week that pizza is going to be special, you’ll look forward to it every week, but if I gave it to you every meal of every day, it loses its value, it becomes too much and loses the “special” feeling
@@MasonOfLife I get where you're coming from. The most similar thing we had to this was in sunshine with the sprites and the blue coins.
But honestly i don't think odyssey would benefit from having a "greater" collectable.
Odyssey (at least in my perspective) is all about exploration and discovery.
Think about this, In the early stages of the game you are presented with these collectables as the single goal (think about the stars in galaxy and how they are the only objective, it's similar to how the game presents itself with the first powermoon)
But Unlocking the Odyssey, in sand, you are thrown into this giant place where these collectables are hidden everywhere.
And to progress you don't need to "finish the level" or "defeat the boss", you need just 16 normal moons!
This is what i am talking about, the sense of the game isn't to progress as much as possible, or complete a list. It's to explore the level and the job of the moons is to give you the reason.
Even a simple ground pound moon, it keeps you on the toes knowing they really can be in any place.
Ps. Sorry if I didn't explain myself well, i'm not a native eanglish.
only recently found your channel, and after just watching the Paper Jam vid and now this one, I gotta say that you are incredibly good at making video essays. Obviously I've not seen every one, but in just two videos you've had some serious tact points that really resonated with me in ways I couldn't previously explain.
If we look at the hopes of future 3D Mario through the lens of being open-world, I completely agree that I would hope it doesn't go that way. Something I love about Galaxy and Sunshine's linearity is that they allow for such striking, grand set-pieces on a star/moon/shine by star/moon/shine scale. Vast indoor locations such as Hotel Delfino are rarely seen in open-world, and stars such as Heavy-Metal Mecha Bowser and Storming the Battlerock have dynamic movement and changes to their set-pieces beyond floating blocks on a track that make Odyssey's terrain seem comparatively stiff.
I could see the appeal of truly open-world Mario game, but if ends up looking like Sonic Frontiers (no hate - just a vaguely visually-similar contemporary example) with tiny objectives in the form of floating platform challenges that dot a standard grassland/desert/beach landscape, I can't say I won't be disappointed.
Yup, I am very skeptical of an open-world Mario game. I think there is potential, but I would not be upset if they chose not to go that route.
@@AurumAlex64I’m that way too but sonic frontiers was what the sonic fan really wanted an open world sonic game for years. I can see a opening world Mario game with some platform with some move sets being from super Mario odyssey I think I can see it very good I think open world sandbox games was great like Super Mario odyssey but their wasn’t even stuff to keep the players engaged with platform as dodging obstacles lol bowser furry I think was an experiment for Nintendo to try something new at least with 3d Mario game as a whole
Heard you out but I still gotta disagree. This video seems premised on a belief in backtracking being an inherent flaw, which is an odd idea for a Mario fan. The same fanbase that plays these games over & over for decades & birthed speedruns is definitely into traversing the levels repeatedly, as long as they were fun to traverse which they endlessly are in BF. And the leave-the-set-so-we-can-set-up-your-next-challenge-here system is not only objectively ingenious from a programming standpoint but minimizes the only problem most people from what I’ve seen have with the boot-outs, which isn’t that you have to play through the fun level again but that it wastes time/momentum. My only criticisms personally would be that Fury Bowser himself gets old fast, and I missed the ability to go back to older missions, but idk my gameplay experience wasn’t hampered by any of what you’re describing. Left a like anyway though for a well-organized & presented argument
I think it’s more so the future of the games should take the aspects that made Bowser’s Fury legitimately good.
• Bowser being an actual threat, the levels being interconnected, the ability to find quicker travel and having allies (Bowser Jr was really fun in the game itself)
The side package has it’s short comings but given time I feel very confident these things could be ironed out. Is it the future? I actually would suggest it’s only one part of a larger picture.
Imagine a game like this with the interconnectivity of odyssey and the blooming creativeness of wonder…now THAT is a Mario game I’m more than willing to soak 20-40 hours into.
When I always heard "Bowser's Fury is the Future" I never really thought people meant the open world style, instead I just assumed they meant the traditional Mario power ups in a 3D Mario game, which I exclude 3D Land and World from because despite literally having a 3rd dimension, they're still designed with the same philosophies of a 2D Mario. A Mario 64/Sunshine/Odyssey with the iconic power ups seems like such an obvious idea, that it's somewhat suprising that only Bowser's Fury and some limited time sections of Galaxy even toy with the idea. And I think viewing Bowser's Fury through this lens may shine the light on why people claim it to be more than just the little side game that it is.
This is a really great point I hadn't even considered, and is something I'm surprised took this long to do as well. I will also say that a lot of the UA-camrs I put in the opening montage straight up say Bowser's Fury is the "future" exactly because it represents a shift to an open-world style, so that's really where I got the impression from.
I mean yeah, the Galaxy games and 64 all only have timed power ups really.
personally, i think there a lot of potential in a metroidvania, style Mario game where all the levels are tightly interconnected instead of being separated into their own challenges. Sure, not every game in the series should be that way, but that would be a very cool way to shake up the formula for the next one.
Yes that’s what I thought too
Personally I’ve never been a fan of 3D Mario games because the most interesting part of Mario to me was.power ups
100% that's why I loved Bowser's fury because of the power ups
I think bowsers fury just shows that nintendo is tackeling the 3D Mario in open world problem. its not that bowsers fury is BOTW and the next 3D mario might be TOTK, Its that Bowsers fury is A Link Between Worlds and the next the next 3d mario might be BOTW.
Its kinda crazy how every Nintendo youtuber described Bowser's Fury the same exact way lmao I'm dying
I think your assertion that Bowser's Fury critical acclaim comes more from what it represents rather than what is it is a little misguided. It's not a 30 minute tech demo, it's a 4-8 hour experience that many of the people you showed reviews from probably played to 100% completion. I think your analysis of the removal of the boot-out system makes my point the best. You mention that the tedious wait times between levels in previous 3D Mario was replaced by a more or less equally tedious manual traveling system in Bowser's Fury, but that's not really what made it so exciting for people. Yes, there's a novelty to manually traveling somewhere yourself rather than picking it from a stage select menu, but what makes Fury's system feel so much more rewarding and engaging is that the numerous number of Cat Shines means there's probably something interesting to briefly distract yourself with on the way to your actually intended destination. If going from destination to destination was as mundane as more or less traveling in a straight line, it wouldn't have resonated with so many people. Yeah, you may be headed to Mount Magmeow next, but the area you completed earlier that's on the way has a new objective to complete, so you might as well take a look! Or's there a secret waterfall area conveniently right before that new area you just unlocked. That's the value so many people saw in Bowser's Fury's approach!
I also disagree with your claim that most of Bowser's Fury is a mundane and repetitive experience because many objectives are repeated throughout levels. This is a criticism many people also apply to Odyssey, but what most people don't mention in their critiques is that the reason why people may fail to mention these in a review or why they enjoy it is because presenting the same objective but in a completely different environment or context is fun! That's why Bowser's Fury's constant stream of platforming is so engaging - because while you may be collecting Cat tokens for the 5th time, you're platforming across an entirely different set of platforms than you did what you last did this objective. The repeated obejctives are just a means to an end; what people actually enjoy about this system is being given an excuse to visit one of their favorite areas under an entirely different context. Why else would someone prefer this system over a game like 3D World, a game with new ideas and environments in almost every level? Of course, there's nothing wrong with preferring 3D World's more traditional approach, and you're 100% accurate in what that game's strengths were, but I think you fail to mention what I think is the obvious appeal of games like Odyssey or Bowser's Fury. In a several hour long experience where the novelty will eventually wear off, the constant stream of content that is appearing every time you 're going somewhere is inherently the appeal of a game like Odyssey or Bowser's Fury. Does that mean I disagree with you thinking a sequel to Bowser's Fury that's 20 hours longer wouldn't become repetitive? No, but Bowser's Fury being so short is inherently why the reuse of content and smaller selection of levels isn't to the game's detriment - because the game succeeds at getting just the right amount of use of these levels before knowing when to have you move on. That's not say the system is perfect (the part where you have to carry a cat across an ocean on a slippery iceberg and you're forced to restart if you drop it is awful), but there's clearly an obvious appeal with this system and it understands how to get you to engage with constant platforming and puzzles while minimizing mundane downtime.
Great video overall, though! I appreciate an opposing perspective even though I obviously disagree.
I think you're right about what the appeal of the manual boot-out system is, I just wonder if the game could better guide the player to interface with it in that way. Most of the time, I treated the game like any other 3D Mario, and just stuck to one level, going back and forth until I finished all the missions. And it feels like the game even encourages this after you beat the base game, because you can just teleport to the start of the level to reset it. But this might be me stuck in my ways and not trying to meet the game where it's at.
@@AurumAlex64 Granted that 'this level will have a new objective when it is unloaded and reloaded' is *not* explicit information given to the player, I think it's clear that the player is by no means intended to "refresh" levels just for completion. The triggers by which new objectives are added are kept hidden specifically to encourage wandering, and this is the approach I took to the game. I didn't even realize there *were* new objectives being added until I happened upon them two hours or so into the game.
And with this 'go with the flow' playstyle, I felt every bit of praise you levied at Fury Bowser's final encounter, but *throughout* the game, every single time he appeared. To me, bowser blocks or the golden platform were never chores to tick off a list, but either fun surprises to reward my evasion of the titular fury, or rewards for my gaining prior knowledge of them through exploration. To me, bowser blocks, level re-visits, etc. were not objectives onto themselves but tools to work toward my true objective - enjoying the game. I think the overwhelming positivity toward Bowser's Fury from so many critics speaks to how effective the game was at fostering this organic 'fun-first' approach for many people.
@@AurumAlex64 another reason for the manual boot out system is the 5 cat shines. they are the red coins of each level. but now you can get it and another shine at the same time. you don't need to leave and grab all 4 you allready grabbed later. the fury blocks was annoying, but that's analogus to secret stars that are allways availible. every level in 64 had a red coin star. but that red coin star boots you out. I just wandered, and i got the cat shines on my own terms. you don't need to grab a shine the moment fury bowser appears. fury bowser also changes levels compleatly. also i am an open world content re-use defender. In open world games, you shouldn't need to do everything to beat the game. open world games don't encorage 100% because you are never meant to grab all 1,000 koroks in tears. it's a reward for exploring. what you find may be the same, but you are still exploring a different area. it's why I'm so glad that the maps in elden ring and tears and botw never show markers of side quests or events. it becomes a checklist. and when that happens, you aren't playing the game in a way that the game is intended to be played likely. i did get every shrine in tears. but near the end of the game it started to feel like a checklist. i realize now that i was optimizeing the fun out of my expirience.
I feel like people just want more open world games, and I don't really agree with that
I actually like linearity if the world feels believable and charming. Pure platforming areas like some galaxies or levels in 3d world don't do much for me. For example, Honeyhive Galaxy is one of my favorite galaxies i think and it's because it feels like a place, and there is a bit to explore. But, it being Galaxy, it's not too huge
Your videos are particularly interesting compared to other Nintendo channels. Subscribed
Tbh, I’ve never interpreted bowsers fury being the future of 3D Mario as an open world game. Rather, an open zone game, with 8 or more areas with the size of bowsers fury. With their own unique world gimmicks, platforming challenges, a similar moveset to odyssey but without cappy and a new gimmick instead, and just overall feeling closer to the sandbox design. Something like sonic frontiers, but being much more Mario coded, with a mix of sandbox and traditional style ways of getting the games collectible. And I don’t think emptiness would be an issue either considering this new 3D Mario very likely has had a much longer development time than either bowsers fury or odyssey, and definitely a higher budget than them. That’d give them the time and money to much better fill out the world of the next 3D Mario.
I think I've made a number of comments to the tune of 'I disagree wholeheartedly!' on this channel, but I enjoy the videos and have subscribed, so please don't take them as insults. They're not even criticisms, just disagreements, seeing such different tastes put into words can only be good for me.
No worries! I enjoy seeing everyone's different perspective as well. I've learned from this comment section that I apparently played this game in a very alien way compared to most.
You're supposed to go back and forth between the islands rather than completing everything on one iskand in one go.
i dont have anything particular to say about this video besides it was enjoyable to listen to and nice to see the gamelpay next to it. as a reformed nintendo fan i havent seen pretty much any of this and it is quite interesting to see the difference between this and your mario galaxy (a game i actually played) video. i also enjoyed the parts about open world. personally i havent enjoyed pretty much ANY open world game, tried breath of the wild and countless others since thats an extremely popular genre, but the only one i've ever actually liked was skyrim. cant say why that is, but that world feels much more "filled" than others without a constant "collectathon" going on in the background. thanks for the content
The double combo of Elden Ring and Tears of the Kingdom the past two years basically killed my interest in open-world games completely. They were both fun games, but became pretty exhausting to play by the end. I'd much rather take a focused, 10 hour experience any day of the week. But I suspect that's not gonna be the direction for the next Mario game.
There's something about how fake feeling the worlds of the more obstacle course based 3d Mario games that I find very off-putting. If the idea of these games having better gameplay is true (which it is, according to the internet's echo chamber), then I would prefer a game without these geometric courses and obviously fake worlds. I think Odyssey is really good in this way. While it does have "the island problem", it is really easy to immerse yourself in its world when you're in it. The world in Bowser's Fury is so mundane in comparison because it is all obstacle courses and there are other problems, such as the strange water, that make the world feel fake and ruins immersion.
Agreed, I thought the Kingdom structure was a very happy medium in Odyssey, even if it wasn't always perfect
Considering that the element that people are intrigued by has to do with how the world is structured and not stuff like the Fury and bootout mechanics themselves I fail to see how those are relevant in why this type of structure would be bad if done again? Like I really don't think it's fair to assume that another game like this would have those kinds of mechanics.
Also I don't think it's fair to conflate linear games like 3D world with this because despite using the same engine their structure makes them different experiences, one is linear and the other is open ended they're not the same thing and that was never the intention.
As for the issue with collectables, yes that was a major issue with Odyssey but does this game do that? Like if lots of redundant feeling collectables was a real issue for open world design than you'd think that it'd be the same for this game right?
Don't agree much with this video tbh, the only part that personally gets on my goat is the complaints relating to it being more open vs linear because it makes me think of the 'it's bad because it's not what I want argument' that seems to be prevalent in game criticism. The part comparing Colour Splash to it especially felt like an offender of this, were're talking about a linear RPG vs an alinear 3D Platformer, these are two games wholly different in everything outside the superficial and comparing them feels ridiculous just on principle alone.
It's alinear, it's supposed to be open ended, that's the point. Saying 3D world is better because it's 'more linear' seems like a redundant point to make considering that if I'm playing an open ended Mario game I'm not looking for linearity.
Anywho I think this is an interesting direction not just for Mario but for other 3D Platformers too. I'm aware of two others with this structure, 'Wavetale' and 'The Big Catch: Tacklebox', neither are long (one's a free prologue) but both are pretty interesting in their own right. I think it's probably the most elegant way to make these kinds of games work Open World cause the level designs themselves are the content, they need to be tightly designed so having them act as their own small disconnected places to explore kinda just makes sense.
It also helps to mentally separate the explorable areas from the overworld, there's a reason why they have different modes of transport in Bowser's Fury, there's Islands that act like Mario 64 levels then there's the overworld that kinda binds them all together. So like the overworld itself is only really there to facilitate that structure so both kind of need to be treated as separate things, Wavetale didn't properly create a separation between them and it made it very easy to trivialise the smaller Island areas.
Sorry about the long message, guess this gave me a lot to think about.
So there are two arguments I present in this video, one in the first half and one in the second:
1. I agree that an open-world Mario game will look fairly different from Bowser's Fury. And that's because I don't think Bowser's Fury, structurally, is all that different from previous 3D Mario games. As I point out in the video, BF has a structure very similar to that of Galaxy 1 (with some extra steps), and I'm not yet convinced that adding playable space between each discrete level adds anything meaningful to the overall experience. If anything, I think there's an argument to be made that Galaxy 1 is actually _less_ linear than BF, by virtue of it having more choices of levels for the player at any one time, particularly once you get to the Bedroom and especially the Engine Room. Simply put, when people point to BF as being the "future," I don't think they're pointing to BF at all -- they're pointing to the (largely) unrelated idea of an open-world Mario game. I think Bowser's Fury is actually a far more linear game than people realize.
2. In the second part of the video, I question whether we really want an open-world Mario game based on how the trend of open-world games by major triple-A studios has been going, which in my opinion, is less than stellar. I do not think the open-worlds of the new Zelda games, Pokémon, or even Elden Ring have represented an especially profound or positive step forward for any of these franchises. They certainly have their strengths, I'm not completely dismissing them out of hand, but right now I feel the negatives outweigh the positives when it comes to open-worlds of this nature. And I think making an open-world game will be especially more difficult for Mario, a series which has predominately put a premium on fast-paced, frenetic set piece moments (hence the 3D World and Color Splash comparisons). Not to say it cannot be done well, but as I say in the video, I am skeptical.
This video took the words right out of my mouth!
I've had these same exact issues with the "future of Mario" commentary since the very first time I played. It's a FANTASTIC side mode, but I know it would be a pretty tedious GAME.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who dislikes the idea of this being 3D Mario’s future. Limited theming, same few missions over and over again with little to no variation, large empty spaces between main areas. Oh but it’s one open world, which has never been appealing to me as a Mario concept. Mario is whacky, weird, a journey across varied environments that thrive on creative nonsense. Making Mario like BotW misses the point entirely.
Also THAT’s why I can’t just keep collecting Shines on the same island? Yeah that’s easily the worst version of the collection system ever put in this genre. Manual boot out, what a crock.
I’m one of the only people who actually liked how many moons Odyssey had.
Odyssey is the best Mario game of all time for me. However I understand people's criticisms with the moons. If you aren't enjoying enough of the moons, maybe it feels more like you are playing a grocery list instead of a game. I personally feel like most of Odyssey's moons were fine, it was really Mario's movement and the levels themselves that hooked me.
@@zeldrio6079 same. Also the reason the game kept me hooked was getting all the moons it was fun and rewarding to keep getting moon after moon!
Thing is I liked too much the 120 stars from 64, Sunshine and Galaxy and the fact that each star its own unique adventure that was challenging to reach the final goal, it wasn't simply explore. That's why i thin the game that mix the best the level linear adventures from Galaxy and the exploration freedom from Odyssey was actually Sunshine having the Blue Coins, that were hidden in every world while also having linear adventures and by getting 10 of them you can get a star keeping the challenge.
lol i honestly think the majority of people do, but usually with most things negative opinions tend to be said more than positive ones. Maybe i'm just reaching tho
for me it's less pointless timewasting and more just using the area you already made better
Also one thing no one seems to mention that hinders a new 3d mario if it were like bowser's fury is the simple fact of having a run button, small as it may be it hinders being able to platform and move the camera at the same time and just doesn't feel as good as the other 3D games.
it works for more linear 3Dworld/land but not a collectathon type mario game imo
I don't like the idea of a open world mario game either, I think they should just go with something similar to what mario 64 did: there's a main hub with a bunch of different doors or little worlds to go and when you complete those places you unlock the next ones.
Like you said, if they actually did go for an actual open world mario I'm completely certain it would be a flop, mario games are not like zelda and when the only goal is to collect moons or stars to get to a place the more collectables there are the worse.
I like to believe that nintendo actually listened to the community and they'll try to not make this mistake but since a big mario game would easily impulse the sales of the next system I think it's pretty likely that the next mario will be pretty big in one way or the other.
I really like how your videos focus a lot on less mainstream opinions and even challenging said opinions instead of just regurgitating the same general consensus over and over again while also not antagonizing people who agree with the general consensus. I've watched this and your Color Splash, Paper Jam, and Super Mystery Dungeon videos and I've really loved your content so far, keep up the good work!
In the Mario Galaxy video, they talk about “intellectual integrity” which they describe as the idea that it's not good enough to have a good idea because it also needs to be a new one.
Paper Jam being disliked isn't an unpopular opinion.
The problem with open world mario is that 3D mario titles are collectathons. The only purpose playing them serves is to get the things so you can get to the places, and SOMETIMES that's broken up by a boss fight or a particularly unique encounter. The solution is to either
A) not make it open world at all,
B) make it open zone like Sonic Frontiers (but with Fury's connectivity) with limited objectives in each connecting location and bosses/quests in major locations,
C) don't make it a collectathon at all, find some other genre like Paper Mario's or Mario + Rabbids, or
D) find a way to differentiate the value of collectibles so that a moon isn't both as valuable as completing a main quest, AND as worthless as kicking open a rock. This would likely look like how Sunshine had shine sprites and blue coins, or even how Tears of the Kingdom had the main quest of each region AND side quests in each one/connecting areas.
I think manual boot up is great because it encourages going to different places after another, not just staying in a single location making it staleish
Whenever you got a cat shine in any given "stage" and you went to another "stage" to "boot out" did you not try to do the cat shine in the other stage you went to?
7:58 - My read of this was the game wants you to continuously explore different levels rather than clean out an entire area all in one go.
please don’t make Mario open world please don’t make Mario open world Nintendo PLEASE
I like the items being more of a set of movements you choose between, it could make Mario a sort of Metroidvania type game where you get power ups that you can use in previous areas
Yeah the powerups in BF just remove all the stakes cause I had tons of power ups that I never had to even look for some
I truly love Bowser's Fury. I recently replayed it and collected all 100 shines with little issue, as i was able to use bowser to get break multiple blocks before collecting one. However, every point you make is more or less without flaw. My least favorite part of Bowser's Fury is the repeating shines. To me, a Bowser's Fury-style 3D mario is open and connected, yes, but its not an open world game. My favorite part of bowser's fury was exploring the lake- the waterfall cave, the random one-off islands at the edges of the map, the bunnies, the plessie coins, and the secret tunnels with the special cat powerups. I want a game like that. The easiest game to point to is ironically the 2D zeldas of the past. Having an interconnected world doesn't mean it's part of the "open world" genre. The 2D zeldas have plenty going on in their world, but they have distinct areas with things to do. My hope for a new 3D Mario is that scale, with areas that have multiple stars/shines that *replenish eventually with other stars* after enough of the game is played to have you return, rather than booting you out, a hybrid of Odyssey's multiple moons and the classic 3D marios
Yeah, i respectfully disagree. Bowser's fury was the mario game fans like me jave been asking for. Mario was NEVER linear. It was always multiple secrets and patheays you could find in the 2s games. And i love galaxy but its more of a pick up and play type of feel rather than emgrossing you with this world. It neevr felt immersive, just cool levels to go through. Sm64, sunshine, and oddysey all felt IMMERSIVE. They all still felt like Mario but these games let players have a but more freedom. Nobody has played sm64, oddysey or even sunshine the exact same way. But we all have played gakaxy 1-2, 3d world/land the same way. For me, linear mario is more like crash than mario. I also feel like they've kind of done all they can with linearity. SM wonder was great but the levwl design was new. It just had more care put inro than the new super mario bros. But yeah, i loved bowsers Fury and i do think its the natural evolution of rhe franchise. It combines odyssey with 3d world which is what i hope for the future of the franchise
I can't disagree with this more! I love pretty much everything you don't like. 😅
I like how you present things, but my goodness, some of this I don't understand! I LOVE planning for Bowser, I love linear levels with tonnes of objectives! And I think it does tonnes different in great ways!
Oh, don't get me wrong, I like planning for Bowser as well! I just thought it became a little too routine over time, less "plan out a strategy," and more "check this item off the box." That's why the ending part was such a pleasant surprise, it made me think on my feet a little.
Wow, so it's true that UA-camrs just parrot each other the same way all the mainstream news networks used to(or probably still do) more or less word for word.
Its like any topic, movie review, game review, current event, and everyone hops on the trend.
Also, i disagree with a lot here. Having a repetition of goals such each level having 5 shards to collect is common to all mario games. You need to have a mix of new goals and familiar goals on each stage.
It sounds like you or perhaps "the average video essayist" is complaining that it gets boring being a completionist? Or its boring being a repeat completionist?
I'm honestly flabbergasted that you've 100%ed Odyssey twice but haven't done all the shrines in TotK once lol
Oh, I have done all the shrines in TotK, I was just saying that if I ever replay the game, I will almost certainly not do it again.
I'd love to see an open world 3D Mario game. The criticisms against Odyssey having too many moons and it suffering from open world fatigue have never resonated with me all that much, personally. A few less wouldn't hurt, that's fair, but I don't think it subtracts anything, really.
Similarily, I do not agree that an open world 3D Mario would neccessarily have to be more slow-paced. In fact, I think that this is exactly where Mario would differ from games like Zelda or Elden Ring, because as a platformer, it has (or at the very least should strive to have) movement which is interesting by itself. I imagine an open world where Odyssey-sized courses are strewn about - not too far from each other, mind you - with the spaces between filled with some hills and ledges to jump over, so that travelling between stages becomes a fun activity in itself, like the hub worlds of Peach's Castle, Delfino Plaza or the Comet Observatory. And this is where I think repetition shines, as it does in a Metroidvania game. Getting yourself familiar with an area by traversing it multiple time should be part of the appeal, not a detractor. Backtracking is often seen as a bad thing whereas I think there are so many cases where it can be used to great effect, and having satifying movement overall is a major key to it.
Of course, I think this world should not be as vast as BotW for example, and much more dense at that. Spaces between proper "levels" should not be any larger than what Odyssey's Sand Kingdom has.
The whole issue with the boot-out system wasn't a problem in Odyssey either, so I they should take more clues there as opposed to Bowser's Fury when designing objectives.
I'm sort of hesitant of the idea of a Open World Mario game too, but I do have the feeling that it's likely going to happen at some point. I definitely think that "Open World Mario" would definitely drive up buzz, and may even potentially as massive to the public like the announcement of GTA 6.
It's hard to directly say that Bowser's Fury was explicitly a test for an open world Mario game, (with the game partly developed by NST as opposed to 3D Mario's usual EPD-8), but I do think that the next 3D Mario taking influence from Fury is very likely.
The closest comparison currently to the concept of an Open World Mario is Sonic Frontiers, but playing through the game was admittedly a chore, from the really weird/convoluted main structure, as well as the world itself not really being that fun or interesting to explore. Probably not the fairest comparison considering Sega's overall treatment of Sonic Team, but it's still the closest comparison one can make.
If they were to do a Open World Mario, I think it's potentially possible to take what Bowser's Fury does and make it unique. Let's say, mix the concept of Fury Bowser with E.M.M.I from Metroid Dread, Mario (and Luigi maybe) are teleported to a mysterious new land because Koizumi said so, and as opposed to waiting for Fury Bowser to spawn, I think a more interesting approach would to potentially have a force or corps of some kind who prove to be initially invincible threats who will not stop to take down the plumber. They can appear anywhere, anytime perhaps. Perhaps maybe like Guardians from BOTW, where you can beat them, but it's nigh impossible at the start.
I think what could also benefit an Open World Mario is still having loads of towns/cities to explore with their own unique NPCs to make the world feel alive, as opposed to how barren most open worlds are.
I think a way to *maybe* fix the Odyssey Moon Problem in some compacity is maybe having a main collectible hierarchy. The "mindless" moon equivalent equals 1, while the major bosses can grant you up to 10 maybe. And of course specific challenge arenas and more puzzles would range. I'm not sure how much that would "fix" the issue considering you'd still have more mindless ones, but I think it would be something at least to make every collectable you have not so draining.
And finally, if all goes sour, I at least hope they'll pull a Sonic Frontiers and give us 40 or so high quality "Course Clear" stages that are up to quality with 3D World, where you also have other minor objectives to get main collectibles. So that way, most people can still get what they want with 3D Mario.
You earn a like purely for finally putting into words why I loved Galaxy and Wonder, but couldn't stand Odyssey or Bowser's Fury. Thank you.
I must be weird cause I like Odyssey and Galaxy but am kinda indifferent on Bowser's Fury and Wonder lol
Algorithm comment. But while we're here, thanks for the great video!
I think what i expirenced with bowsers fury is that when i finished one level in one area is that the finishing area was near a new level in a new area.
Very well-thought analysis of what most people missed when discussing the gameplay of Fury, there's just one small add-on that should have been mentioned on 3D World.
While you already said how 3D World's level and world gameplay structure highlights the issue with repetition in the open-world genre, one of the issues I dislike the most just further proves the point, especially for 100%-ing.
WHY THE HELL DO I NEED TO PLAY EACH GODDAMN LEVEL WITH EACH CHARACTER JUST TO GET THE CHARACTER'S STAMP?! THEY'RE THE CENTRAL FOCUS OF THE ENTIRE GAME AND SOMEHOW I'M FORCED TO REPEATEDLY COMPLETE EACH LEVEL IN A TOTAL OF 5 TIMES JUST TO COLLECT THEM!
Also why Plessie was extremely fun to cruise around in the lake, the mention of Jaxi as a worse controllable character literally used for challenges (Moons) where the main difficulty is the controls further undermines this 'travel-issue'.
Yes, the character requirements for 3D World is one of the worst completion requirements they've ever made. I'm not sure what value they thought it added to the game, it didn't need it.
Bit off topic but saying that everymoon in odyssey after the normal amount is dumb
You could say that with Mario 64, Galaxy with every single one
Especially with sunshine
And if you just wanna get through this game that's good
But like if you enjoy these games and if you collect more than you need you probably do
It's amazing having so much content
Especially Mario Sunshine with the blue coins they don't have that much of a practical use but damnnn
They add so much and it's one of those games I just don't want to end
And odyssey is the same
There may be a bunch of stuff to do but it's fun stuff even if filler
Cause it's a fun game
i thought it was just people saying they prefered it's structure over odyssey's. like.. quality over quantity
I feel like odyssey was more quality though
Mario odyssey is not that good. Cappy limits Mario’s movements which doesn’t allow for great level design.
...I think they obviously meant the future of another TYPE of 3D Mario, not games like fucking Mario Odyssey.
The best way to go in my opinion is combining mario odyssey's huge moveset and enemy posession system along with storing power ups in bowser's fury.
also we can have enemies that resemble lumas or fludd to reintroduce galaxy or sunshine movesets and gravity gameplay.
basically i think that you can kidnap enemies for later use like in mgsv by having yoshi or cappy eat them or something, nintendo can make this power up storage the same as botw or totk.
this can make Nintendo go all out on the level design and puzzles, which can make moons start to require way more thinking and skill, since you'd always have special enemies to posess stored and available, rather than being just a one time gimmick for a single puzzle
I think that even if that storage is too overpowered, it can be balanced by using the boot out system to "empty up" the storage, maybe you can pick up the lost items later like in dark souls.
you'd need different combinations of power ups and enemy movesets to get through different puzzles for moons rather than only relying on the basic movesets with minimal thinking, Nintendo can draw inspiration from majora's mask, which basically lets link use different masks at all times.
Sounds like you just don’t like to 100% open world games tbh, which is fair but if your gonna try and do something like that, you have to go in with the understanding that doing everything in an entire world of a game is going to be tediously, no matter how you design it
I really agrre with this video. I liked Bowser's Fury, but I liked it cuz it was a side game. If a full Mario game was made to be similar to this, I think it would be extremely boring. I don't know what I want out of the next Mario game, but I hope it's not a big map with either nothing to do, or so many things to do that it's repetitive and unfun. People got a little bit too excited about no loading zones
Yup, I'm pretty much down with almost any direction for the next 3D Mario game. I just hope they don't "Breath of the Wild" Mario next
Calling Bowser's Fury the future of 3D Mario to me rings the same as saying every Nintendo console going into the future will be a switch. It makes perfect sense given our current scope, but how far into the future can anyone really see?
Before the NX was revealed, many people were predicting Nintendo were definitely going to start making phones; that's how the future looked to be going to people in 2015. Years before that, no one thought of Nintendo's home console and handheld being the same. Now it's all we can think about. Future technology can't be predicted, and neither can future game design.
Aonuma's comments about not wanting to go back to linear Zelda might seem more damning, but at the same time, his team is likely not even thinking about the Zelda that comes after the one they're working on now. They have no concept of what the tech will be, or what consumers will want in the 6 years between now and when they even start on the next game.
It's often lost on most people that getting one 3D Mario per console is the standard. The 64 had one. GameCube had one. Wii had two which was the sole exception. DS, 3DS, Wii U, and Switch all had one. Each one sold fantastically, revered by all, yet none ever had an impact past one successor.
So maybe the next 3D Mario on the switch 2 will be like Bowser's fury. But the next one after that, on the Switch 3? Or Switch 4? Who knows. And you can say that for everything about the future.
Bro completely invalidated himself when he said 3D World was the best in the franchise.
Now I still like the game but something feels much slower about the game one thing i really dislike is plessie she doesnt feel that fast it feels really tedious by an hour in a half in the games run time and the bowsers gimmick became more annoying as the game progressed started as a cool spectacle i still like the game and love the cat theme but I would really prefer a different route!
I feel like the linear levels of this game and fury bowser are part of the experiment of this game that likely won't return and if this game is the future, it's only in the regard of no loading screens and every area existing in an open traversable space
Y'know, something that I think has kind of warped my brain recently is that there currently exists only one Nintendo Console. For generations, it felt like there was "The Main Console" and "The Handheld One", and with them came certain expectations. We would want "The Major Console" to produce a game that took full benefit of its hardware. We can make a 2D mario on the handheld, so naturally we should have a 3D Mario on the console since you can't DO that on a handheld. What should 3D Mario be like? Well, he should do 3D things! Things you couldn't do in 2D. So I think exploration becomes a key factor in these, and its easy to see how we can lean towards the sandbox route. When games like 3D World came out, it slapped but I faintly recall the sentiment that it lacked ambition. Especially now that Wonder exists; what can 3D World do that Wonder can't? What does the third dimension add to the game? And now we have just the Switch, and now it has major releases in both 2D and 3D. So now, when a Mario game releases, there is an artistic statement it makes if it decides to be 2D or 3D, it is not a give-in.
I think there IS an argument to be made that making Mario open-world is just an arbitrary demand of what we think a "Major Game" should look like. But, if we are saying another 3D Mario should be made, for the sole reason that there must be a 3D Mario, then I guess I would say yeah, I'd rather it be like Odyssey, or Banjo Kazooie. It is a different experience than the 2D one, since its a far more relaxed and easy-going experience, and I'd be more inclined to take advantage of that fact. For me, Mario Odyssey and Bowsers Fury (which I never played tbh lmao I'm just a fan of the channel and running out of videos to watch 🥺) are already both open world experiences, whereas even very similar ones like 64 and Sunshine are not. Being told to "Race Koopa the Quick" on a menu is a very different feeling from that of exploring Bob-Omb Battlefield at your own pace and running into him. In one of the benefits of the latter case, I think the player would feel more free to disengage with a potentially more high-stress activity than what they had in mind. Once the race starts, just take a few jumps to the left and find something else to do. I always feel like this thought process seems alien to a 100% completionist but to a child or to my hamster brain this invites an entirely different flow of the game that makes casual play feel quick and natural. After all, choice doesn't quite matter as much if we view the entire game as content to be inevitably completed anyway.
"The Future is Uncertain"- this is a very valid concern. The sandbox genre does not instantly mean giant open fields with nothing to do in them, and we can see games like Banjo Kazooie or Morrowind from the Elder Scrolls series which have imo a whole bunch of fun stuff in arms reach generally. But the reality is that both of those franchises had sequels valuing BIGGER locales, and the biggering problem has continued to this day, even Zelda and Pokemon are getting in on it as you mentioned in the video. It'll be interesting to see where we go from here for sure
I think my core issue with open-world games is not necessarily giving me open fields with nothing to do, but making sure what's actually there to do feels meaningful. The caves and catacombs were fine when I played Elden Ring the first time, but every time I think about replaying that game, never once do I consider redoing them. If I do replay Elden Ring, it will probably be limited to the major dungeons. And it just feels bad to me that a game would have so much disposable stuff in it, when it could be funneled into the stuff that's actually enjoyable.
This probably explains why I vastly prefer the Galaxy games and 3D world -- games which edge away from sandbox exploration -- over 64 and Sunshine. I think the heavily structured platforming of the former group makes for a more consistently engaging experience than say, combing for blue coins in Gelato Beach or waiting for boats in Delfino Plaza (amongst many other less-than-fun things in Sunshine). But even games like Odyssey can pack a ton of variety in a dozen plus sandbox kingdoms than an open world can even when carving itself into multiple regions. So, I dunno, I still remain deeply skeptical of an open-world Mario. Mostly because I've realized that I just don't love the open world genre as much as I wanted to.
Yeah, I hope they don’t do this. The game was way too overwhelming for me.
5:07 Except for one huge difference, Mario 64 did it right this game did not.
Wow. This video is incredible. It gives a detailed explanation of the problems you have with the game, a clear, methodical and orderly train of thought, and a thesis that ties everything together in a cohesive message. You deserve far more subscribers and success you have.
I can’t be the only one who thought Bowser’s Fury was just okay. Bosses were meh and it’s a little forgettable.
No you ain’t wrong just beat it a month ago. It’s pretty meh. Especially if you play through 3d world first and then go into browser fury. 3D world felt like an epic fun adventure.. browser fury felt like a choir… I’m sorry but that’s how I felt
Dont know if You'll see this but ive never seen videos that resonate with my thoughts on games more than yours, between this and your Galaxy 2 video Its nice seeing someone go in depth on the mario games. Great stuff👍
Thank you! I try to add to the conversation wherever I can, and I'm glad to see I was able to do that here
This felt more nitpicky than just constructive criticism.
16:17 I love the subtle breath when Mario emerged from the water
I'm glad someone noticied that, it took longer than expected to make this stupid joke haha
@@AurumAlex64 No worries, I scrolled through the comments before saying this to see if anyone else had pointed it out and was astounded to learn that it slipped under the radar for this long. Great video, just found your channel and I've been enjoying your content!
You have the voice of a 1 million subscriber channel.
Thank you for making this, idk why this game gets glazed so hard
My own view on Bowser's Fury is that it was moreso an experiment with features that probably *wouldn't* work as a full game (mainly the whole Fury Bowser gimmick that I deem a net negative to the experience), just a little novelty product that made the most of what it had. I had a fun time with it, but I would probably get sick of it if it was a full length game. The whole item storage thing gave me the idea of a Mario metroidvania though so that's a plus.
Nintendo can do a whole lot with an open world mario:
- tons of unique, vibrant areas to explore with platforming sections blended into the whole world
- enemies of course but also more hazardous and interfering enemies that are out on patrol perhaps at night(airships with headlights shining down, if they see Mario, cannonballs rain down)
- bosses within different areas of the world that progress the story(perhaps only one certain boss at a time is accessible to strengthen the story and not make the game feels like a typical Mario fetch quest)
Etc. you get my point
Alright, but how do you traverse the world more quickly without needing to resort to fast travel? Bowser's Fury had Plessie. What's your suggestion?
@@TicTacToeCraft perhaps Mario accesses a small airship that he hijacks from some shy guys and you can design it however you want. Or maybe they bring back cosmic Mario, the red and black one that can fly in galaxy 1 in the last galaxy
I have the same criticizm as you with Bowser's Fury.
I like this "side-package" a lot, but waiting for Bowser kills the pace and definetly the worst part of the game in my opinion.
But I would absolutely *LOVE* to see an open world-Mario-Game, too. But I really want it to be *fully* open world. Not like Bowser's Fury where you had to unlock specific areas. I think it would be awesome if it was like BotW or TotK, so that everything is accessible right from the beginning, but of course with the great Mario-Movement. And the movement should be complete at the start in my opinion.
I hear many people who want something like a skill-tree, but this just wouldn't fit in a Mario-Game. I've always loved about Mario-Games that you have every move right from the very beginning. You don't become faster or jump higher while progressing. This would just kill platform-challenges, and you definitley need them in a platformer-game. And I don't want to have to learn the Triple-Jump for example. I want to be able to do it from the very beginning.
I would make the main-collectible make something like this:
You can go whereever you want in every possible order in this world, except of the final boss. Bowser is behind a great gate and the player needs to build some kind of weapon (a big hammer for example) in order to break the gate and enter the final boss. So you can actually explore Bowser's castle instantly, but you can't go to Bowser (or the main antagonist, it doesn't have to be Bowser).
Every main boss has a specific element which you need to build this weapon. So you have to defeat every main boss and beside this collect many of the main-collectibles (but not every) to enter the final boss and beat the game. Or you need just 4 of the 7 (for example) main bosses and the main-collectibles.
Or they make it like in the newest Zelda-Games and you can instantly go to Bowser (or whoever or whatever the main antagonist will be), but I would prefer the former idea.
And there should be some collectibles that are just there, but they aren't important in sense of beating the game. Like the Purple Coins in Mario Odyssey or the Korogs in BotW and TotK. Many little things that make exploring worth it and gives you a smile on your face. 😊
In general I would make it like it was Mario Odyssey, but every world is in one place and you can go to them in every possible order. The player decides.
These are some of my ideas to this, and I think a fully open world-Mario-Game, if done right, would be the ultimate videogame. 😍
Great video!
I'm definitely a lot more cynical when it comes to an open-world Mario game, but I'd definitely still be curious to see what they might have cooking up!
I think this is the future of 3D Mario 😏
Before finishing this, I'm going to answer one of your first major questions with the point you brought up immediately after asking it- What does Bowser's Fury bring to the table? Well as you said, it's not all too different from any other 3D mario title, where you unlock a series of hubs that you travel between and complete in any order until you meet the star requirement to go to the next one.... except Bowser's Fury is the only one where you can just directly travel between them, and the hubs themselves exist in the same larger world.
Galaxy 1 and 2 use a UI and a loading zone to travel to levels, Super Mario Sunshsine uses a loading zone and a UI, Super Mario 64 uses a loading zone then a UI, Odyssey requires the odyssey, so a loading zone and a UI, 3D world has a playable world map, but it isn't playable in the same way (you have limited moveset, can't travel freely), and it STILL uses a loading zone and UI to go between everything.
Bowser's Fury is the only game that does the same thing as those other ones without breaking up the otherwise continuous gameplay experience with a loading zone and a UI element hiding the fact that Mario just magically teleported from the hub world to the level, because they're the same thing.
what did you study in college?
I studied Psychology
I hope the future of 3d mario is like odyssey but with open world totk size
That could be cool. I'd rather just each kingdom actually have content and not just be bosses (some of them were) and maybe more fleshed-out missions for the main game and not all the post game moons that are just for challenge. Also don't make moons buyable that was kinda dumb
finally someone who understands!!!
Bro when’s the sonic video
16:16 Subtle and underrated joke
This "open-world platformer" thing just doesn't work. I felt it with Banjo-Kazooie, I felt it with Odyssey (to a lesser extent because the movement was so good), and I felt it with Bowser's Fury.
>boot-out bad
wrong
Another thing that the future of 3D Mario with Bowser's Fury questionable is what is revealed in the credits regarding the plot.
The one thing that I despised was it doesn't take an experienced player long to beat. What I noticed is that on my first blind playthrough it took me about 30 minutes to complete which was an accident then my second run with amiibo took me about 25 minutes to any percent but 30 to 100 percent