How powerful were Sauron's armies during the War of the Ring?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- In this video, we estimate how many soldiers were under Sauron's command during the War of the Ring.
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Sauron: Have the entire army arrived? All my vaste army of slaves, vassals and allies?
Minion: Yes great Lord.
Sauron: Excelect. We will match forth once the host is ready!
Minion: There is a problem my lord.
Sauron: A problem?
Minion: Yes lord. Most of your host had to march through hundreds of miles of empty lands to get here. They have exhausted their supplies, both food and water.
Sauron: Why not simply re-supply them?
Minion: Because Mordor is a barren wasteland, as you ordered lord.
Sauron: Yes. I do love the view. Now bring in supplies from our vast slave worked farms around the Sea of Nurnen!
Minion: Those farms are more than 300 miles away. Wagons can’t even carry enough fodder and water to keep their animals alive, much less carry any cargo. We get only a trickle from them.
Sauron: So what’s the bottom line?
Minion: Starting tomorrow, 10% of your army is going to die each day from thirst and starvation. In 2 week, they’ll all be dead.
Sauron: Then we must attack at once!
Minion: Yes lord. The closest water source large enough to meet the need of the host is the Anduin river. That’s 2 weeks' march away.
Sauron: And you said they would all be dead in 2 weeks?
Minion: The last of them should drop just as they reach the river.
Sauron: Who the hell came up with his stupid plan!?! Bring me his head!!
Minion: Yes great lord.
I rate this comment so much XD
Lmao
Seems like the minion didn't really help out Sauron here lol.
@@alandgomez5905 He was into yes men.
To be fair to Sauron, he seems to have spent a lot of time laying down an efficient logistical network before sending out his armies. A medieval historian actually analysed the battle of Pelennor Fields, and found that, if the army from morgul was about 30,000 strong, they would have had JUST enough rations to make the march to Minas Tirith, siege it, and take it. If the Rohirrim didn't show up, the remaining orcs would have lived off the food in the city until rations shipped up the anduin river arrived. Sauron knew what he was doing. Also worthy of note, it's implied that Sauron has somehow "harnessed" the water in Mordor, as the rivers are running unnaturally dry. This could just be general Mordorian devastation, but more likely, Sauron had advanced aqueducts, and could keep his armies watered.
The book mentioned that Rohan was thrice outnumbered just by the Haradrim, not taking into account all the orcs and Easterlings. That would be around 18,000, so I would estimate the forces at Minas Tirith to be around 100,000. As the book mentioned this wasn't even the largest host Mordor mentioned, this carries some frightening implications.
Can you imagine if the forces of umbar , easterlings , harad would have sided with the free people ! It would have been so different. Sucks to see humans vs humans when orcs didn't even like humans .
Makes you wonder if at night in the Mordor encampments, Orc gangs went prowling around the Easterling and Haradrim tents to kidnap young soldiers for their ration pot in the morning. If so, that would certainly enhance the morale of the Easterling and Haradrim forces!
Agreed, if the men of the South and East had realised over the centuries that Sauron was a traitorus monster who would probably turn on them when it suited him and forged better alliances with their kin in the west and north this would have been a very different kind of war. (and a bit less culturally problematic as a story lol)
rob Kemp well, it isn‘t that these humans were overly loyal, they just feared Sauron more (and what he is capable of) then the Free People... add the hatred passed on from generation to generation they had against the Free People, and getting slaughtered by them in the thousands due to inferior weapons, armor and technology in general!
And there is no thinking of political blocks or alliances... even the Free People are divided as fuck between each other
One thing the movies did wrong is putting to much emphasis on the Mordor orcs. The Mumakil charge was great, but there are only a few second shots with Easterlings and Haradrim in action.
@@robkemp598 Culturally problematic? Are you serious. What culturally problematic exactly there is?
People from the East had invaded men of north and west for generations, destroying Kingdom of Rhovanion and driving other weaker easterling populations and northmen to either flee or become enslaved.
Southrons hated Gondor due to Black Numenorean tradition making any reconciliation impossible and already worshipped Sauron as their God-King, and practiced human sacrifices.
Southrons and Easterlings had worshipped Sauron and hated West for many generations. They would never ally themselves with the West and rather would die - what was that happened.
Also worst of men always shared spiritual kinship with the orcs. That's why those two races could be bred together. Orcs were depictions of lowermost human mentality and during history of middle-earth often allied with wicked men.
In the Books Easterlings and Southrons even warred with Gondor even after Sauron's death for many long years.
I really like the First Age and Third Age reversely mirrors each other. Initially in the FA many great princes there were: Feanor, Fingolfin, Finrod Glorfindel, Ecthelion etc and great Men like Turin, Tuor, Hurin Hour, Beren etc. I mean they have the dream team and even Fingolfin himself boasted before the Battle of Sudden Flame that except for treason among themselves Morgoth could never win against them. But because they never had the support of neither the Valar or Iluvatar via the Curse of Mandos all went to shit. The late TA was the exact opposite. Everything has dwindled beyond recognition and its simply too many to mention who and what were nerfed. Calling the Men of the West and their Dwarven and Elven allies underdogs is an understatement. Yet still they pull of a win. This is because God and the Valar were low key with them all along.
After watch your video on redeming Sauron, my head canon is that of Sauron being the kind of person who'd be ecstatic to deal the logistics of such a large army.
Its so hard to estimate Tolkiens world some times...at a glance at his maps it seems very empty and void in many regions...but if you read between the lines there are people in many places..... only thing i think you estimate a bit to high might be Dol Guldur...just a feeling that they wernt many there..the places they attacked wernt huge when it came to armies...elfs were realy dwindling....battle of five armies 500 dwarfs were about to take on both the men and elfs...so my guess is that the wooden realm of mirkwood wasnt that many ...and lorien either....and if rohan could muster about 10 000 i dont think the other regions around mirkwood could do much more
I think 40.000 Easterlings attacking Erebor and Dale is a bit too much too.
@@MasterBombadillo yes have to agree...thats my feeling to...but like i said...its hard sometimes to estimate the world of Tolkien...at a glance many places seems void but there were plenty of northmen around mirkwood.
The places they attacked were strong, defended by elves and dwarves. An army of elves isn’t simply going to be taken out by a horde of orcs or Easterlings even many times their number. They would eventually fall, before Bombadil, and Rivendell and the havens, but after everything else.
So powerful that he at least could have spared 1 cave troll to guard mount doom..
You've been popping up all over my UA-cam, and I've liked everything I've seen. So with this, I finally subscribed to you brotha! Keep up the enthralling lore that is Tolkien's works! Also Star wars is another love of mine, so I guess you're perfect for me
Keep in mind that the bulk of Sauron's forces were Orcs which were much less efficient fighters than men or elves. With men of the average type, one could expect a 1-to-three or even 1-to-five ratio, that is one human can dispatch 3 to 5 Orcs before being overwhelmed. The crack Gondor troops and the Rohirrim would have been 1 to 8 or even 1 to 10. The Mordor Allies were human and could match 1-to-1, but there were fewer of them. The Nazgul were an over match of 1 Nazgul to 10 or 20 men, but there were only Nine. So, without the influence of Sauron himself humans could hold their own. However, with Sauron's power at play, even without the Ring, things were not going to go well for Gondor.
The supplemental materials for the movies actually did crunch some numbers for Sauron's forces. The army that marched on Minas Tirith, including Easterlings and Haradrim, was roughly 200,000 strong. The armies still encamped within Mordor numbered over 300,000, though they were quite clearly and understandably called forth in a hurry. Those same materials also stated the total size of Sauron's armies during the Second Age to also number roughly 500,000 total, so this seems to be the ideal size of what Sauron considers his standing armies. This is why he couldn't be defeated militarily: *80% of Middle-earth's population fought for his side*.
Great vid, big numbers indeed
Sauron had 6 major forces before the start of hostilities.
Minas morgal-attack Minas tirith all combined forces
Dol guldor-attack loth lorien and reinforce the seige of erobor mostly orcs
Rhun-attack erobor mostly Easterling
Umbar- raid southern gondor take peligor co4sairs haradrim
Black gates-reinforce dol goldor and intercept Rohan at cair andros
Please do Sauron's Army vs The Night Kings Army in a all out War.
In my head I've always imagined several millions in Morder. And high thousands everywhere else.
It was ultimately divine providence that saw the end of sauron, frodos quest failed..
The problem I have is that if Sauron's army outnumbered the forces of Gondor and Rohan many times over then why didn't he take Minas Tirith sooner? It's not like Sauron would have a problem throwing away orc or Haradrim lives to get a victory. Military leaders are hesitant because of not wanting to lose lives, being unsure of victory, and/or opening themselves up to other dangers such as attack from a third party. None of these seem to apply to Mordor.
He had to gather his troops and get set up first, and he wanted to make sure none of his enemies would reinforce each other. (This almost worked.) The attack on Minas Tirith was actually rushed because he thought Aragorn was there with the ring.
Peter Jackson said there was 200,000 orcs alone attacking minis tirith. How big was the orc army in the books? That’s not including the army that was still in mordor. It just seems almost impossible to be able to feed an supply armies that big
We don't get an exact size in the books. We only know that the Haradrim numbered 18,000, and that the force that attacked Osgiliath outnumbered the defenders over 10:1. Considering the Morgul army was the main force, it would presumably be much larger than 18,000, yet not so large that it couldn't be defeated conventionally (which it was in the books). I'm pretty confident in a number between 40-60,000 for the Orcs.
If they would be 200k+ they would not even feel the impact of the 6k Rohirim lol
@@Goratrix66 150,000 ottomans broke to 18,000 western knights at Vienna. Seeing as shadowfax, the best of Rohan’s horses, was quite frankly magical and warriors like Eomer make the heroes of the Iliad seem like amateurs the idea that orcs (weaker and more cowardly than a strong man) could buckle at the charge of 6,000 heroic riders on horses greater than anything we have know seems right to me.
You forgot mercenaries from Khand.
I'd lower amount of Minas Morgul forces. Afterall, it's fortress located in small, hard to reach (and supply) valley. Imho MM army would reach up to 20 000 orcs. Still, it's large force, though.
Mateusz Sławiński don‘t let you fool from the size in the movie! Minas Ithil was the twin city to Minas Tirith, and Minas Tirith could host such a number! Besides, who says they were all IN the fortress, could have also been partly encamped around the Morgul Vale
All I can think about this is like, " yes we gotta fight for our Dark Lord cause he'll kill us if we don't but also Fuxk the state..."
How does Sauron's armies during the war of the ring compare to the Numenorean army which is said to be the most powerful army middle earth have ever seen?
To me it seems during the war of the ring, Sauron total army is more than 250,000 so I'd question if even the Numenorean army would stand a chance.
Considering that:
a) the Númenóreans were basically ubermensch,
b) they were (by LOTR standards) one of the most advanced civilizations in Arda,
c) they had a pretty big population, with over 15 million Númenóreans living on Númenor alone, and
d) Sauron couldn't trust even his greatest servants to stand against the Númenóreans; and in fact his servants literally deserted him when Ar-Pharazôn came with his army,
Then I would say that Sauron's armies during the War of the Ring would stand as much of a chance as a child facing off in a 1v1 against Morgoth himself: that is to say, they stand no fucking chance. There's a reason why Sauron opted to destroy the Númenóreans from within.
Umm.... There were 10,000 banners under Theoden, which, based on the book, puts the Morgul Army at 100,000
And he still lost to two hobbits with the power of friendship
pls do one on gondor
Already done. My first video of questionable quality was Gondor.
Sauron was defeated by conventional means not once but twice. First when Numenor defeated mordor. They landed at Umbar and their host was so great and so powerful that when Sauron's armies saw the host they fled and abandoned their master (im guessing their host was around 500,000 to 1 million)
Second when the armies of Gondor, Arnor, Khazad Dum, exiled Noldor, Lothlorien and woodland realm invaded Mordor(yes they INVADED Mordor) and laid seige to Barad Dur
Are you talking about the last alliance ??
Bruh you don't have to be that enigmatic. Everyone knows about the war of the last alliance.
That was the War of the Last Alliance. This is the Third Age, where none of the Free Peoples had that numbers strength or ability to work together anymore. Sauron recovered his losses and regained his full military strength; his enemies did not.
Power does not equal size. Training,experience etc.
Ok ngl, as impressive as saurons army is its clear that morgoth's would easily beat saurons. Morgoth actually put his power into his army in which case morgoth's power surpasses saurons by a lot so you can imagine how strong his army is. Not to mention morgoth had balrogs
Army Of Mordor likes this video
I wouldn't rely on the Red Book for enemy numbers. It's easy to overestimate numbers by sight, and to overestimate enemy numbers in particular. It's also an established tradition to exaggerate enemy numbers either to make defeats seem less, or victories seem more than otherwise.
It would also be hard to supply strong armies in Gorgoroth, Ithilien, and Mirkwood. 5,000 to 10,000 each, including camp servants, might be practical. It might be possible to send several smaller armies to converge on the Pellenor. 4 columns, totalling 20,000 to 40,000 total, might be practical, and even before the harvest it might be possible to supply 80,000 there. Trying to counterattack each of these forces, before the others can arrive, would make a certain amount of sense, if it weren't for the Nazgul.
I am struggling with neuro issues, and that last insult always feels like a gut punch. It wasn't necessary, and in our world, it was used in forced sterilization campaigns.
Sub me in as Talion on the pelenor fields and I’m going on a 25k kill streak
Why did Frodo travel relatively easy, if there were so many soldiers still there? Attacking three times, does it imply that all soldiers of first attack died? Did any army from MT return after the siege was broken? How Gandalf venturen in Mirkwood, if so many were there? I thing there were far less soldiers for Sauron. Maybe roughly 200,000, otherwise, Sauron is a complete moron 😂
10:10 The vast size of Sauron's army also explains why Denethor pretty much went crazy by the battle of the pelennor fields. He knew that nothing he could do would save Gondor from destruction.
@Gaius Wyrden no, denethor was using the palantir of osgiliath it filled him with visions of a future in which sauron won the war for the ring. He was mad grief and despair. In the books Denethor is a soldier through and through he is always in armour and he is a keen tactician.
Gaius Wyrden yea sending faramir to his death is a movie only thing haha
Movies aren’t the same as the original books
@@wh3elson He actually said the same stuff in the movie as he did in the book almost verbatim.
@@BascinetBreaker yes, but it was Sauron breaking his will and resolve that drove him mad and led to him trying to burn his son.
Great video Darth Gandalf since you’ve done a video on Saurons strength Will you be doing one on morgoths army’s
During the battle of unnumbered tears I believe his army was around half a million I think.
@@CDPW wasnt there a battle that litterally broke the continent it whas fought on?
@@maximilianrediger98 In the age of the lamps Melkor decimated much of the world pretty much single handedly. The continents fragmented when the lamps came crashing down. Fire also spilled everywhere.
@@maximilianrediger98 yh, the war of the wrath destroyed the whole of beleriand.
Imagine having all these forces and losing the war.
Sucks to be the villain
this meme has been made by the shire gang
Sauron did lose the war, but not because of his forces. Aragorn's armies were heavily outnumbered at the Battle of Morannon. Aragorn only led his men to fight, because he wanted to give Frodo and Sam time. Otherwise, if the ring was not destroyed. Sauron would send another deadly onslaught to destroy the already-weakened Rohan and Gondor forces.
Wssnt Sauron attack was simultaneous attack throughout the country?
You joking ? The winged hussars defeated 60 k with 300 and i do not think these orcs can even fight and btw aragorn summoned dead people who could not be killed which means insta defeat like you cannot kill someone who already is dead and he lost the war beacose a little gold ring has been scratched
There is two major points in the books that you did not even mention, one is the fact that Aragon reveal himself to Sauron, who in return unleashes his armies before they are really ready, meaning most of his standing army was utterly destroyed at the battle of the Pelanor fields, and therefore most if not all the reserves was drawn up for the battle of the black gate, meaning Sauron only had around 50000 troops available in reserve in Mordor at that point.
The second point is the vision I think it is Frodo that gets it from the mountain top where the fellowship splits up (can't recall the name) he get visions of vaste forces gathering from the south and east to travel to Mordor.
Therefore most of Saurons standing armies was destroyed, but it was only a fraction of his real forces, and he would have gathered enought troops to win a second siege of Minas Tirith if left alone, that in turn was why the ring had to be destroyed.
The Reserves you mean, its kind of like what happened IRL sometimes where the Standing army is decimated but the Standing army is Replaced by a Reserve Force that needed to be mustred fast,
For example IRL the Soviet Standing Army was Decimated by the German Offensives at Barbarossa but Managed to Muster a Large Reserve Force when the Soviets managed to get their act together against Germany. (Speaking of the Germans accurately guess the Soviet Standing army Numbers based on the info they had avalable but Uterly Failed to realise how Much the Soviets can Men and Women the Soviets can Muster in Reserve despite massive Losses on the Soviets who had a tough time reorganising its War Machine when Barbarrossa happened.)
Fun Fact: The Soviets were actually Out Numbered by the Germans during Barbarossa because they were caught off Guard it took the Soviets a while before they managed to mobilize its Reserves and out number the Germans.
Then, there are also the Orc tribes of the misty mountains and Gundabad, which I would estimate also in the several ten thousands!
The misty mountains and Gundabad were ‚cleansed‘ in the Dwarven-Orc War and the Battle of the Five Armies, but these two events happened over 200 years in the first case and around 80 in the second case ago... enough time for Orcs to increase their number there
Space Roamer well, it didn‘t happen in the book as it was portrayed in the movie 😉
their maybe join force with easterling toget erabor
What about the Orcs in the Misty Mountains and in the former Region of Angmar and Orcs in Gundabad?
Sauron may not have been in contact with those forces
I would guess that Dol Guldur at least partially drew upon the Misty Mountains orcs/goblins for it's armies. Just given the proximity.
autumj1 Wasn‘t a big Orc that resembled Mordor Orcs amongst the Orcs that attacked the fellowship in Moria? The one, that tried to kill Frodo (which was replaced through a Troll in the movie)
And I believe amongst the Orcs that attacked Merry/Pippin/Boromir were also Orcs from the Misty Mointains
@@michelmorio8026 You are right, in the books the orcs that attacked the fellowship at amon hen where a group of moria orcs, orcs from mordor and sarumans uruk hai.
There are no orcs of angmar, it was utterly destroyed when Gondor and the elves marched directly on the witch King. Orcs of the misty mountains were merely goblins, the film doesn't do a good job of showing how mighty the free folk actually are in combat. We don't know much on gundabad
So his armies were comparable to that of the Roman Empire at it's peak military power which is estimated to have been 450,000.
@@adambednarek7146 yeah but is that movie army size or book size, because like darth Gandalf said it's never stated how large most of the armies of middle earth were. Because if I recall from reading up on the armies and it could be incorrect because I've never read the books but watched the movies, that the army that attacked the city were over 200,000 strong but Gondor had a fighting chance because they had over 50,000 men defending such a massive city. I love fantasy honestly it makes things like this wacky and fun, a siege like that would last months if not up to a year if the city was well stocked. It was the capital of Gondor for christ's sake it was going to be stacked
@@mariarogers74I see his estimate of Gondors and Rohans armies of 20k and 12k being accurate in his other video but the orks in total are probably more like 200k to 250k. Romans biggest army assembled was 80k but probably had that a few times over. So probably equal at 250k.
Fun fact the easterlings forces alone were much greater than that of all the Free Peoples armies combined and it's stated that if blue wizards weren't sent to Rhun and easterling mobilized all of their military the Free People would be pretty much obliterated.
@@zahard1732 I never heard of that and I read all the books more than once..
@@diamondsandgold1993 It was mentioned in the wiki, im currently reading the books for the first time in my life so i assumed it was true, sry if it isn't
Nothing compared to the Empire of Sigmar
I like your figures. What people often forget about armies is the logistics involved in keeping an army in the field. Sauron could not have brought his full might to bear as that number of beings could not be supported in one place. The army faced by the Armies of the West at the Black Gate would probably have been the standing guard of the Gates and Udûn supplemented by Easterling cavalry/mounted infantry which could have been brought up quickly with minimal supplies.
for the battles that makes sense, but not for the campaign. He could have sent 'those armies stationed in Mordor' if he had them, out into the rest of Gondor while Minas Tirith was being sieged. Stationed in Mordor, they were still in need of the same supplies, and weren't contributing anything to the war...
@@DraconimLt likely the same reason it's easier to supply an army at rest in garrison then it is to supply one in the field. At home you have all the logistics sorted, the maths is right, the roads are known and there's little to no chance of being raided. Once you move away from home all that gets thrown out the window, the amount of wagons/carts/whatever to keep a steady supply line increases dramatically the further you travel from home with every vehicle lost to weather/raiding all the more critical. Theoretically you could steal from the enemy but that's never a guaranteed thing and Gondor knew before the fellowship even left Rivendell at the latest this was coming and very likely made preparations to stop just such a thing from happening. If Sauron had deployed his whole force cannibalism would have been the only thing keeping them going after as little as a few days, and while that's fine to the average orc his human subjects would not have liked it, and all this is putting aside Saurons own love if order that would have made him revile such inefficient methods.
@@00yiggdrasill00 hmm maybe, but the lands they were stationed on in northern Mordor were barren, the food producing areas were way to the south. So they'd have far LESS localised supplies where they were than if unleashed in Gondor, and already long supply lines.
Orcs can kill and eat deer etc as easily as humans can, they can eat the 'manflesh' of enemies they kill, same with horses, and you can carry a lot of supplies on a Mumakil...
Orcs don't want bread or vegetables, so it's not like clearing the crops would be a problem for them.
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From a Dark Lords's perspective, it would seem more efficient to send them to kill the enemy, then supply themselves by eating said enemy and anything else they catch, than having them sitting there twidling their thumbs, not contributing to the war effort and thus being inefficient with a huge number of useless mouths to feed, surely?
@@DraconimLt you're missing the key points. Sauron was a lover of controlling order and a hater if waste. It wouldn't matter that the food was grown/raised in the south or even from vassel states, it would fit right in with him to have an efficient system of roads and other infrastructure to move it where he wanted it with other things like raw minerals coming from somewhere else. Couple this with few to no good roads between Gondor and Mordor due to ancient hostility and time and that rampaging orcs are easier to harass and raid, especially as the southern fiefs kept troops in reserve for their own defence and It would be a waste he couldn't tolerate. Tolkien also would change his mind that the blue wizards had failed and would later give hints Sauron faced opposition in the far east so sending everything at Gondor/the dwarves would have been a poor strategic decision even if he could have supplied it easily.
@@DraconimLt another thing I'm just remembering is that the invasion Gondor was very rushed. At the fall of Isengard pippin looked into the Palantir and Sauron believed he was Frodo coming to the conclusion Aragorn/Gandalf had his ring, and both would've been powerful enough to use it against him, so he moved immediately to destroy their apparent power base, and above all proper logistics takes time and preparation.
good video, but seems overestimated for the easterlings and harad. 40 000 easterlings and 60 000 haradrim is far to much
Discussing the role of the Blue Wizards in his very late writings, Tolkien suggests that had they not been busy liberating parts of Rhûn and convincing certain Eastern Kingdoms to turn against Sauron, then the forces of the Easterlings alone would have outnumbered the entire force of the West. The only way we can really judge the levels to which the Blue Wizards reduced this army is by comparing it to the number of western evils Gandalf and Radagast managed to neutralise; mainly, the majority of the Orcs of the Grey Mountains, some Orcs of the Misty Mountains, and the dragon Smaug. Looking at those figures, I'd humbly estimate it's unlikely they reduced the Easterling forces to much smaller than 80% of the total force of the West all on their own. That would put the estimates in this video way too small.
I think the forcs of the easterlings, haradrim and umbar were way to much since gondor fought against the easterlings and haradrim at the same time and still won most the battles.
IIRC Orcs do very badly in daylight, so Sauron needed Humans from the east to fight in his wars. Mt Doom erupted in a giant billowing cloud of smoke and ash that blotted out the sunlight, making it possible for his orcish armies to march. In contrast to the well equipped armies of both Rohan and Gondor the orcs were poorly equipped. The numbers are large, but the Men of the west were much better quality of troops.
Very good point! Orcs didnt have the tech. In the two towers Saron was leading them an building better armies.
Most of the time the orcs only have numbers on their side.
A man is worth 5 orcs easily
Very sound estimates good sir. You're Channel deserves more recognition! Glad it's happening
Your*
But like 1 man, elve, dwarf can take 5 orcs
Its true. Orcs arent the best fighters just vast in number
Abe Martinez orcs are the Asians from us they are with much and they use themself as shield
*Sauron fought valiantly and Sauron died*
Well researched. Thanks for compiling g this information, must have taken quite an effort.
I play Total war pc games and the army at minas tirath looks like close to 100000
As someone who loves knowing army sizes in wars and battles from history and in fantasy settings, watching your videos has been the best part of this month for me. Keep up the amazing work and can't wait for the next one! :)
Very nicely done video (and videos) from you. I might suggest to consider the historic atlas of middle earth (if you haven't already), since there are numbers of the major battles based on estimates or direct citations from one or another book (including references).
There the total number of the arming sieging Minas Thirith is (including Haradrim and Easterlings) is estimated as 45.000, although your estimation has a good point too.
I hope I may habe pushed you even further. Thumps up and keep up your nice work.
45000 is way too little, since the battle of the pelennor fields was the largest battle of the third age. The army of Sauron at the Morannon was larger than 60000. So maybe the army on the pelennor may have been between 100-200 thousand
@@anti-liberalismo Where does it say the Pelennor is the biggest? Also, 100-200 thousand is way too much for the 6,000 Rohirrim, about 6,000 Gondorians, and about 3,000 under Aragon's command to defat, even with tactical supremacy.
@@Trigm it's stated in the books and the appendix. 100-200 is not to much, since a lot of them perished during the Battle of Osgiliath and the Charge of Imrahil, and during the Siege of Gondor itself. And there were far more defenders than only 6000, and Aragorn brought far more men than 3000. Anything can be won with tactical supremacy, see Battle of Watling Street and Battle of Carrhae
Free peoples meanwhile:
"We've got 60,000 soldiers and a prayer"
reminds me of the time Sauron lost to a maiden and her dog
He would slay Huan and Luthien if he used his dark magic and heat of his hand
@@_semih_ Sauron tried his tricks, but Huan the Hound is immune to magic...the Silmarillion describes it like this during their fight:
"But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength , could overthrow Huan without forsaking his body utterly. "
Well Huan wasnt just a dog😅
Not even counting the Goblins of Moria, Orcs of Gundabad, Mt Gram, Grey Mountains etc etc. However we definitely don’t have any numbers for them except for Frodo’s vision on Amon Sul of Orcs issuing forth from caves like ants coming out of their hills.
Great video mate, might be interested in a colab, got a review of the pot-de-fer vase cannon I'm working on next week if you'd be interested in featuring.
I think you focused to much on armys. Lets not forget sauron is a maiar, one of the strongest of them. Even without the ring he is impossibel to defeat by mortals.
Except by Isildur :) hehe
@@wh3elson also elendil and Gil-galad.
I tbought the Pelinor Fields army was 200,000.
That might be a movie thing. It's pretty doubtful that the Morgul army was that size in the books.
Wouldn't the numbers be somewhat lower, factoring in that many of those fighting in later battles such as the Moranon would be survivors from earlier battles rather than new fighters? Also, if he had such total numbers all he would have to do was unleash them en mass and no force would be able to stand against them, why would he leave such large numbers of Orcs in reserve?!? Send them to hit the rest of Gondor while Minas Tirith was sieged!
He has other enemies in Middle-earth he would want those troops for. In fact, he was simultaneously sieging both Lothlorien and Erebor at the same moment the Black Gates were being sieged. His defeat broke both sieges near-instantly.
@@LordSiravant I know that, but didn't this vid count them and the reserves separately? The reserves were the ones I was referring to, add them to all the armies already sent out and we are hitting ridiculously overwhelming numbers if unleashed at once...
This is probably the same strength Sauron had at the end of the 2nd age when he faced Gil-Galad and Elendil.
He was far more powerful. 1 million orcs at least. Even the Elves had more than 200k soldiers
@@thodorisndrianopoulos7266 no Sauron had 500 000 orcs at the battle of dagorlad and the last alliance of elves and men is estimated to be 100 000 soldiers
@@laplantefelix8310 in the books isnt a number , logic in the Last Aliance Sauron army was minimum 4 time bigger , Sauron in Mordor have 200000 in dol guldur gundabad goblin town moria orcs ather 200000 esterlings 200000 khad haradrims 200000 , Sauron have 0.8 milion in 3018/3020 period for last Aliance have minimum 3 milion , for the war of Sauron with elfs , durins and for the last battle numenoreans , Sauron mast have minimum 6 milions
@@adrianciobanu5856 in the books of the lost tales, Tolkien tells the number of Allied and ennemy forces
@@laplantefelix8310 And what may those numbers be?
During the rule of Krishnadevaraya Maharajara the Vijayanagar empire had 700000 soldier's (Hindu army)
Great video man and respect for taking the time to do such research.
I think morgoth’s army at its hieght was over a million.
Millions*
Easily over a million imo. But he was still stupid to send the orcs to fight gods
🤦♂️
George Velis I almost beat their ass with my dragons tho
Melkor yeah you did 🤣
The book says only one finger of the hand of Sauron's armies had been checked at the Pelennor Fields. The army at the Black Gate must be only another finger. And Sauron was forced to launch his attacks before he was ready. Sauron clearly had vast forces of men in the East and South he had not even called up yet. At least half a million is a good guess. Sauron may have had up to a million men and orcs to pull from if he wanted to.
One wonders how many men Sauron could have gathered had the Blue Wizards not turned great numbers of the Easterlings and Haradrim against him starting in the middle of the Second Age.
Still not as big as Sauron's armies in the Second Age let alone Morgoth's armies in the First Age.
Seems like overkill when you consider the full muster of Rohan was at least 12 thousand and Gondor probably had 10 thousand in all by the time of the siege lol
not really, they still lost.
Both Gondor and Rohan had way more than that. Gondor had around 40k and Rohan around 20
where the armies of Isengard in this count
They could be included but tbh they're pretty small. Roughiy 10k Uruks sent to fight at Helm's Deep (not including the men of the hills) , and I reckon about 15-20k held in reserve.
What does it actually *matter* literarily or mytho-poetically what the “exact numbers of orcs, Easterlings, Haradrim, trolls, Corsairs, and Black Numenoreans” were in Sauron’s armies?
When the text of LOTR tells us that the Fallen Maia’s forces are “too vast to be defeated by force of arms,” **THAT** is the essential information: it tells us that no matter how magically “powerful” Gandalf is; regardless of how brave, inspiring, stalwart, and strong Aragorn is; no matter how accurate Legolas’s bow, or how hard Gimli’s axe swings; no matter how gallant Eomir is and how self-sacrificing and altruistic Theoden King, Eowyn, Merry, and Pippin are--what *really* can bring Sauron The Dark Lord down is the simple, loving, loyal, tenacious selfless *friendship* of two seemingly small, insignificant Hobbits staying TRUE to the end. THAT is the quest that can hit Sauron where he is *weakest,* in the place nearly everyone thinks embodies his POWER: The Ring. Caring more for the Other than for Oneself: THAT is All that can defeat the Immense--but ultimately empty--Pride and Narcissism of Sauron…
THAT is Tolkien’s crntral, humanist message in LOTR. It is, in truth, both impossible *and* irrelevant to try to put precise numbers on all the soldiers of Sauron in LOTR, as such numbers are ultimately *beside the point.*
Mordor is the Tolkien equalivant of the Soviet Union lol
If you play wargames you know that when you see that shot of Mina’s tirith that ain’t 30,000 orca that’ like 200,000 and Peter Jackson behind the scene said there’s 200,000 orcs there
Let me propose this;
Sauron can not be defeated through strength of arms.
This is referring more to his immortal, Nature in that the only way TOO defeat it would be througb a bigher order of Ainur or any of the Heralds of the Maia.
That seem acceptable?
Sauron is powerful that he has not only orcs man as well like easterlings,haradrim,cosiars,variags,
Wargs,trolls,nazgul,black uruk hai,mumakil,fell beast.
Imagine having an army of 300.000 strong and can't spare at least 10.000 to guard the mount doom :P
It's amazing how only 6000 rohiram took down the orc force at pelenor fields then at least three squads worth of mumakil.realistically givin the 70 000 of them along with the easterling army,then the Harrad renforcments.On top of all the crap the rohiram had to go through to get there.Every rider was atleast out numbered 9 to one.All that not including the hundreds of trolls brought to the battle which completly disapperd twards the end movie conveniently.Which alone could probably kill more than 1500 rohiram.Even if you caught them completely off guard and charged them head on successfully(even that scene was unrealistic Givin horses nature to not run into sharp objects and hundreds of meters of armourd orcs)they'd just get surrounded and literally drown in bad guys.Once a horseman is surrounded its pretty easy for 9 orcs to just kill him.You see in the movie the king litarally has 20 orcs around him while he's fighting just staring like deer.
The mumakil would just mop the few stragglers given that the only real mumakil Deaths were from the insanely lucky spear throw, legolas and marys plot armour letting him get so close to one.Then they would just take the city.that's all forgetting the more than hundred thousand orcs and evil men scatterd across gondor and rohiram territory in the after math of them hearing about the defeat probably causing havoc.Then mordor and harrad them selfes.
Yes it's things like this that really detract from the battles imo. The way they charge in and just run them down has nothing to do with actual cavalry tactics nor with animal behaviour. It's the same at Helms Deep. Horses just jumping into lines of pike wouldn't have happened in real life. For someone who experienced war Tolkien has a surprising lack of tactical imagination. Also the way he has both the fell beasts appear and the eagles solve battles on several occasions is just lazy copy pasting.
@@Status1985Quo you cannot really reflect upon his experience of war dude
because, nevermind being a fantasy, just imagine how you would compare strategy in war with guns vs war with medieval weapons in the first place?
@@Status1985Quo It wasn't written like this in the books - you are basing this off of the movies.
Read about the charge of the Hussar's.
@@Status1985Quo Tolkien didn’t direct the movies lol read the books. However as the other guy alluded at Vienna 18,000 western knights charged 150,000 ottomans who were besieging the city. The ottomans broke and were routed by the (clearly an inspiration to Tolkien) charge. The riders of Rohan in the books are 6,000 (however 6,000 riders more heroic than our late middle age knights on horses far, far superior, using weapons at least as good as the western knights at Vienna, with the knights of dol amroth and the grey company also being far more heroic and using vastly superior arms and armour to what we had in our Middle Ages also).
so what you are telling me is the entire population of known middle earth is smaller than a single city... because even if we assume that the army's are as little as a third of the populations of each region (and probably more than that for the dwarves and elves) then middle earth has about 1.53 million people... slightly less people then Phoenix Arizona, over an area bigger than Europe
I'd say it's very unlikely that armies were a third of each region's population. Historically, it was rare for agrarian societies to field more than 5% of their male population in their armies. Given Middle-earth is a fantasy setting, you might be able to put that number as high as 10%, but that would still mean that places like Rohan had a population of 300,000+, and that's a conservative estimate. The Westlands of Middle-earth probably had a population of around 5 million at the end of the Third Age, including Men, Elves and Dwarves.
The Army that laid seige to Minus Tirith was at least 200,000 strong.
The battle of unnumbered tears would Gondar stand to that prolly not
In the movie át Pelennor fields the orc army eas 200 thousand strong and 15 or 20 thousand more haradrians May be they had a bigger army than in the books
If only he made a door with a lock in front of sammath naur
I give sauron military force of 40 million
How did Sauron feed The army?
Didint Sauron attack erabor in the war of the ring
Yes, his easterling allies and orcs of dol guldur launched a major offensive on Erebor, Dale, Esgaroth and the iron Hills. That campaign almost ended in an easterling victory but they broke their sieges and withdrew when they learnt of the destruction of Sauron.
Barad-dur/reserve forces
I REALLY appreciate the LOTR BFME 2 Music in this Video!
Best game ever... and you cant buy it oe run it anymore....
Why use orcs on the frontline at all? The Haradrim and the various human tribes of the East that worship Sauron as a God all fought better and were able to forge better equipment than the average Morgul or Mordorian Orc/ Uruk. Why not just raise large human armies and have the Orcs work admin back in Mordor or police occupied/sensitive areas. If any orcs should be sent to the frontlines..its those capable of taming and riding Wargs. These things are bear-like ( going by the film depictions) and are as fast as a horse and more powerful in a charge than Gondorian or Rohan cavalry if used properly.
Using light/inexperienced/expendable troops in the first line of battle is an age-old tactic. They provide scouting (especially with the Wargs you mentioned) shield your main force, are generally more mobile than more heavily armoured troops and if they die you're not losing anything of great value as they are easily replaced.
I figure his individual armies were not even that big or powerful, but he could just keep quickly replacing and throwing them at the free peoples until they were destroyed in a war of attrition.
Great video, I love that you’re delving in and helping to provide us with some understanding of the strength of each of the peoples of Middle Earth! Did Dol Guldur not send a force to assist the attack on Dale and Erebor?
As far as we know, that army was made up entirely of Easterlings.
Mark McCormick As far as the books mention the War in the North, Dol Guldur did only attack Lorien several times and was defeated in open battle by Thranduil... till it was finally destroyed by the two realms in a joined attack
I think this is too high a number, Sauron would've overran all of middle earth with that many troops, not to mention it would be impossible for Mordor to feed them.
Worth remembering that Sauron's Orcs are vastly inferior fighters to Elves, Men and Dwarves. And we know that the region of Nurn manned by Sauron's slaves kept Sauron's armies fed.
You underestimate the size of Mordor. Mordor was roughly 400k square kilometers in area making it larger than most European nations wich have 10s of millions of people. If anything these estimates are too small.
@@thenovicegamer007 Only France and Italy and later Germany had more than 10 million people during the late middle ages, 1500's. And those are the flattest, greenest countries of Europe, not a volcanic mountainous wasteland.
On top of this Sauron had additional forces up north including: Thousands of Orcs and Goblins when considering Moria, Mount Gundabad, Mount Gram. Additionally he had the beasts of Mirkwood, The Armies of Isengard which included 10,000+ Orcs and Uruk Hali’s as well as a unknown amount of Dunlundings Although they were only temporary allies, The Balrog of Moria which is not confirmed to have joined Sauron but likely held some alliance as his orcs were permitted into Moria. This isn’t even counting the creaters that inhabited middle earth such as the barrow wights even though few of these forces could participate in the conflict in a meaningful way. He even had a force of goblins which were strong enough to hold the pass north of Moria until Glorfindel cleared it
"impenetrable fortress"? except for two hobbits. haha
They didn't go in Barad Dur, obviously
I wish we could get numbers on Numenor. We know that Minaster completely drove Sauron out of the North and we also know that Pharazons force was so poweful that Saurons armies would not fight for him.
Which world would you like to be discovered in the first dimension lord of the rings or games workshop warhammer ? This is open to all. I'd prefer living as a horsemen from Rohan's capital with their main door open in times of trouble to all hobbits.
You neglected to mention the special forces....Great beasts, Trolls and of course the 9 Ringwraiths...
In addition, your didn't add the army of the dead to the free people tally.
gundabad army
I've spent two days searching for this video just for the epic message at the end - If you outnumber the enemy 10 to 1, you are a real moron if you still manage to blow it. So true, so harsh. Like it!
Imagine having to feed all of that on a daily basis, almost perpetually. For long decades, even hundreds of years at a time. No wonder his lands looked like a scab.
Imagine spending entire afternoon, evening, night and then finally morning - just standing, watching front formations slowly taking the giant city.
By the time the rohan force came I would be thanking them for ending my torture :p
I don’t think Sauron was a moron, he just kept losing to very timely circumstances and two Hobbits, and Gandalf, sucks to be the main bad guy of a story.
If Gandalf didn't do what he did in the Hobbit, Gondor and the rest of Anor and the elven kingdoms may have been screwed.
Not to mention that he took out a Balrog. Gandalf in my books is a true hero, without him Middle-Earth may have fallen.
Then again, I blame Celebrimbor for everything. For the rings anyway.
Love the video by the way.
Do hope you continue these. Your efforts are amazing and so accurate. Plus your visuals are so good!. At least two others give ok information yet are stuck on their visual being themselves. Yuck!
The mogul army was the smallest of three hosts of orcs Sauron also sent troops from barudur and other fortresses this does not include the the orcs of ithilian being the black uruks or the orcs already on the other side of osgiliath.
I collected the iron painted figures and it came with a book and it said that there's was 75,000 Orcs at this battle so that's what I've always said when asked how big it was.