Gibson Guitars - What's the Deal?
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- Gibson Guitars is on the edge of bankruptcy. I ask two experts how they got here and where they are headed.
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They jumped the shark when they started making a guitar that tunes itself instead of a guitar that stays in tune.
Yup
That is really what the problem is. The managment doesn't understand their customers.
To add to that, all it really would take is a redesign of the headstock. Or a device that is on the headstock to prevent the bend at the nut. Headstock should get a redesign still though.
Hahaha
To be honest, most guitar players (including myself) are extremely conservative and anything that deviates from the classic Les Paul look would be poorly received. To improve the tuning stability you have to change the headstock, which wouldn't be a popular change. Maybe some people at Gibson simply wish to do something else that churning out copies of a 60 year old design, but their customers won't let them.
I was the machinist Henry hired in early Nov 93 to program, setup, and run their Komo 4+4 CNC milling machine that arrived in late Nov 93. This machine made all the solid bodies Gibson offered from that point onwards. I can't remember the plant manager's name but I never answered to him anyway but he wasn't a luthier either and never understood my suggestions for improving the models Gibson offered. I used to work with an engineer named Matt who was a luthier and understood my concerns which we addressed privately. The blueprints we used were copies of the originals and for the most part we would recreate the same dimensions as the original blueprints. Gibson tried to make bodies that had balsa wood in a cavity under the maple tops. After a small run of these I objected against making anymore of these crappy designs. Then they tried to use Poplar wood and again I was against making these because I saw them crack overnight. They tried pocketing underneath along with lightning holes and it was making the guitars prone to warping or cracking. In my experience Gibson made some really great guitars and some really crappy ones. It all depended on the quality of the wood they used. The 1st 100th anniversary I built, hungover from partying with Johnny Neal the night before, was a Les Paul Special double cut on Saturday morning Jan 1st with Henry J, Matt, the plant manager, and myself. I was surprised they chose this model instead of a 57 Black Beauty or 59 Standard. It was made out of Poplar wood if I remember right because I remember thinking Henry was a cheap bastard for picking that wood over the mahogany. When it was completed 5 days later I got to sign it and it sat in a rotating display case through 94 at the employee entrance. I made bodies, fingerboards, necks, and cut inlay pockets for 100k plus guitars. Only a handful bear my signature, many have my initials either under the fingerboard on the neck or the neck pocket on the body. My original agreement was I would be allowed to build my own guitar my way out of materials of my choosing. I decided I wanted a Lucille made from 95% Birdseye Maple on the body and neck. Abalone inlays and binding with gold tuners and pickups and hardware. Upon finishing the guitar in an antique amber stain and several coats of clear, Henry said the guitar was too expensive for me to have. The guitar sat in my corner of the machining area for two months in its case wrapped in plastic. Then BB King showed up in early August and Henry gathered all the employees to the presentation of BB getting another Black Lucille. I brought the guitar I made and as BB was about to get up from the table to leave, I stepped forward from behind the crowd and told him the guitar I made was from the employees. When he opened it he had a huge smile on his face. What was Henry going to do? Tell BB King he couldn't have it? He played that guitar for two hours that night at Riverfront Park in Nashville and I attended that show as an ex-employee of Gibson. It was priceless when Henry told me I was fired and I said now you know what it's like to have something you wanted taken from you...I left August 94 after 9 months. My standards were higher than Gibsons and I've never regretted leaving.
Cool story 👀
_...Henry said the guitar was too expensive for me to have._
Because of course he did. I could get quite specific as to why that is, but I'll simply say that _he couldn't help himself._
He is *_The Man Who Saved Gibson, Only To Ruin It Again._* And I hope history is not one bit kind to him.
You fcking legend
Fuckin excellent story. Genuinely. Fuck Henry and congratulations for at least a Blues Legend like King. Where did you go after Gibson?
@@uoza92the company I worked at before Gibson had burned down 2 weeks before I started at Gibson. They bought another building and the machines were delivered a week after I left Gibson so I went to work for them again. I was the shop foreman for years until the owner died and I moved to Montana. I'm now retired from machining but I've continued building guitars and designing new models for myself and family.
I grew up with no money....i was a gibson fan because of GNR, but since they were so unreachable, had to learn with cheap ibanez guitars, time flew and i bought a better one, a better one and so on. Now i own two prestige ibanez and a couple of hi ends fenders because i grew up with those brands...if i had the chance when a was a kid to have access to the cheapest gibson, i would own 10k gibson today. So i am a living proof of one of the reasons why gibson went down.Too Elitist.
Same dude. I grew up and slash was my guy. But I ended up with the Ibanez rg, now my main is a vai jem because it’s an rg on steroids. I don’t even look at Gibson when I go to the shop
you may be interested to know that Slash was originally playing a Gibson copy built to the specs, not a real Gibson.
I just cannot justify spending $3k+ on a guitar man. Been playing 28 years. I have the money, just don't feel it's necessary. $2k is my upper limit.
@@ezumach agree, brother. It just too much money. It doesnt matter you are a millionaire, it just to god damn money.
@@FernandoLobo Yeah man, especially when you have brands like D'angelico putting out incredible quality guitars in the $800 - $1.3k range. I'd rather have a Gretsch Electromatic, D'angelico Premier, and a Strat American Standard. All three of those guitars cost me $3k because I bought two on clearance, one used. $3k for what? A name on a headstock? No thanks..
the quality control went in the trash can. They were hoping to sell junk just on the strength of their name. shame on you Gibson.
They are still junk
$5000 guitars that's what went wrong.
Yep lol plain and simple
I've paid 10k for an esp. Things are worth what you are willing to pay. The market always speaks.
@@ChaseSpec I've said it before, i'll say it again the whole "free market" idea is bull. It was destroyed back in the 40's and it's why the leaders after WWII began regulating things. The market can be, and will be manipulated to the benefit of the larger corps.
@@davidmiller9485 I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make here. Market manipulation is a "thing", but it's not at all relevant to what we were talking about. Companies can make products and price them however they want. It's then up to the market to decide if the cost is worth it. I'm not saying that 10k is a good price or a bad price. Just that it was one I was willing to pay for a particular guitar. Gibson is going broke just like other high-end companies like Harley Davidson. They refuse to accept that others are just better and you can't sell nostalgia forever.
Unions, health insurance, the same things that priced every other American worker out of the market
I'm a little surprised that they didn't discuss Gibson's policy of the last 10 years or so, of requiring retailers to order something like $100,000 worth of inventory in order to be considered an "authorized Gibson dealer". This pretty much insured that the smaller shops could not afford to carry new Gibson guitars. I wonder if this practice hurt or helped Gibson over time?
You'll know the tree by its fruit :3
Definitely hurt...shelf life on these Gibson’s are long. My Gibson 2017 Classic was $2000 when it came out in October 16 by August they were on sale for $1450 where I got one😬 plays great!!! No issues!!!
djfrank68 It's the same as car dealerships have to buy minimum stock and corporate badging and practices.
+J. J. Common practice doesn't mean good practice. It's used to force dealers into investing in stock, and therefore making a priority of trying to sell it.
My dealer had to drop Gibson for that very reason. Very high rep local shop, serving big chunk of local market. Now sells Bernies instead.
As a kid who loved Thin Lizzy and Whitesnake, I always wanted a Les Paul. When I got older I got one. And I got a Stratocaster the same year because of a fortunate deal.
And every time I reach for a guitar, it's the Stratocaster. I never expected that
For the uk it was paying premium prices for guitars shipped by Gibson and discovering that they were shipping us their B stock kit. It began to grate a bit and smacked of piss taking. I bought a Tokai in the end. And love it. And as you said earlier in your great video......... less than the cost of a Gibson.
Too many people with MBA's trying to make their mark in the business world with a quick uptick in the quarterly returns with no thoughts to long term strategy or profitability. We have been seeing this in every market as corporations take over boutique businesses.
Yes! Yes! Yes!!!! Even Warren Buffet said that the requirement for quarterly earnings is killing the longterm profitability of companies by putting so much attention on short term gains.
100% This same short term attitude is the ruin of many, many profitable businesses.
If the guy running Gibson isn't a lifelong player who interacts regularly with real working musicians and dreamers who love to play, they have no true leader.
People used to be able to "work their way up" through in-house company promotions. What MAJOR benefit did this have? THEY KNEW MANY MORE ASPECTS OF SAID BUSINESS!
"Couldn't get good wood" Yeah....that happens to me, too. Older I get......
Donald: SAD!
Don't they make a pill for that?
Yeah...it's called Fender.....
Ha Ha, Good call :-)
😂
Perhaps one of the reasons the guitar industry and culture in general is on its knees is the fact that everyone seems to have a wet dream about an era gone 60 years ago.. There appears to be very little space and acceptance for modern innovation that has the potential to make new classics. As relevant and trend-setting the late 50s and early 60s were, we are not in the 50s and 60s any more! Bear in mind that Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy Page didn't play vintage guitars, they played guitars that were new. Endless re-issues and circle jerks about the past are not helping.
What about new materials? Construction techniques? We now know fairly conclusively the absolute majority of the guitar's sound is the pickups and the amp, so why not go berserk in exploring new things? It's potentially very exciting, and we're in the age of the biggest technological advances, but some people are killing the fun for no other reason other than wishing to re-live their youth - doctors and lawyers are not rock n' roll.
Watch Rick’s top ten Kickass Metal on Spotify. Sure he is a Les Paul guy, but he has, and plays just about everything. Methinks you are using hyperbole, inadvertently,l perhaps. 🤔
Many companies have tried composites over the years, Gibson included, and more often than not it simply comes down to long term maintenance and playability...guitars are made the way they are because they sound great and we've had a LONG time to figure out how to make them remain stable in their tuning and not fall apart due to age and chemical breakdown...technological advancements have already come a long way with amps, but the tactile nature of the guitar and its operation isn't likely to change anytime soon...also, Hendrix and Page played late 50's guitars in the late 60's rather than brand new guitars...
For what it's worth, I'm a lawyer and I heartily agree with your sentiment about manufacturers. In fact, what you're saying is sage advice regarding the production of ANY type of good-they must meet the nature of the demand as it is, not as they think it should be.
It's lazy logic by Gibson in equating nostalgia w practical need. Thinking our love of Jimi or Jimmy's sound means a desire to have access to their exact same guitar when, as you pointed out, both were playing the best of what was available at that time and, similarly, today's musician wants the benefit of decades' hindsight in their hands.
They should've been listening to customer feedback instead of dreamily staring at some old tour poster on the wall for inspiration.
Watch Kingfish Ingram jam out on a 100% stock $800 MIM Stratocaster. Is all this gear fetishism really necessary?
Page and Hendrix didn't play "vintage" but they definitely went older guitars that weren't in production because they sounded good. People like page are the reason we have Les Paul standards built today. Gibson had already discontinued and moved on to the SG with no plans of bringing back the expensive to build unpopular standard. Basically most of the people you would name were playing the equivalent of pawn shop gems, not the new offerings so closer to vintage (a term that's come about in the last couple decades) than brand new
My dad owned and played a 1934 L5 with the Harry Reser band. Now that was a guitar!!
That is my favorite guitar of all time! I have a 1931 L3
Companies always need to be humble enough to listen to the customer.
Shaun mcinnis
It's the MBA-making-decisions phenomenon. "I have a business degree, therefore I am an expert on everything."
Are these MBAs all accountants? Because it's the "let's save more here by cutting more costs" accountants that push all of this
I just picked up a Wolf Les Paul copy and it was $499. I bought it as a goof, figuring how good can this thing be. Well it came perfect out of the box, tuned it up and played it through a VOX AC15, Fender Twin, Fender Hot Rod, Fender Blues Deluxe, Fender Priceton, and my Marshall DSL 40 and if you were not a guitar player ( and even if you were ) you would have to listen real close to notice any difference at all. The Wolf is a heavy guitar but plays beautifully and the workmanship is spot on, at least on the one they sent me. I have contacted other owners and they have told me the same thing. The guitar also comes with a pretty nice hardshell case and has binding all around. For $499, I'll take it any day of the week!
The one time my parents tried to surprise me with a guitar was with a robot gibson. They thought they were getting a good deal because it was marked down so much, but luckily I was able to talk to them about it before they bought it.
Lol, still nice of your parents though.
That auto tune story is hilarious and sad at the same time
knew some that had one. horrible. it would often retune out of tune lol
@ Oisin
Wait until the auto-driving cars come out. The love to make more crap to put on stuff so they can justify a higher price. How about just make what we need and make it better?
but can't you turn the thing off for while you're playing? Why wouldn't they make it so it tuned only when you want it to. Just set the tuning you want maintained and have it adjusted when you press the button, boom, problem solved. Can't Gibson figure that out?
@Gumshon My 2015 SG has it and it works just like you said. You press a button and it's on, you press that button again and it's off. I don't know what that guy was doing quite honestly ahahah.
Actually, playing stuff in so many different tunings like I do, it has saved me so much time that I wish I had it on every guitar
Exactly. I know what he was doing - he did not read the manual. You are supposed to strum open strings, not a chord. This is a prime example of people using it wrong and people who have no personal experience with it hating it because of dumdums' failure to comprehend basic instructions. I have had the Tronical version on my guitar for a while and been using it during concerts and so far so good. It has saved me a lot of hassle - not only do I not have to switch guitars for different tunings, I also tune up much faster during practices, which saves time which me and my bandmates can use for playing songs. We have literally been astonished by how much more we are able to manage during one practice just by saving time on tuning... Of course I get the argument that it is an electronic device and therefore volatile to malfunctions. But until the day it f**ks me during a concert, I'm a happy camper :)
I bought an epiphone and put Seth Lover pickups in it. Total investment of about $600 and sounds absolutely amazing. $3,500 for an ES-335? Crazy.
Steverino Arch I bought an old Yamaha sl-800s lawsuit les paul for $700, it sounds even better than Gibson custom shop
Epiphone is bae
here's the 3 real reasons for gibson turding out
#1) to expensive
#2) too expensive
#3) two expensive
And oh yea - Put a DAMN roller nut on them!!!
Yeah and they're not cheap either.
at 16:30 the issue in a nut shell. Priced themselves out of the "real musician" market; and there are not enough doctors and lawyers around to buy their expensive guitars.
The dude on the left looks like every Guitar Center manager
John Russell ironic
Yeah!
I bought my first Gibson.A 2017 Les Paul classic gold top.The nut was cracked and reglued at the factory.While changing the strings for the first time the tuning post fell out.The binding is not perfectly aligned with the body.I kept it because it sounds absolutely amazing.But for a guitar that cost $2000 it should be flawless.I would say that a Les Paul classic should cost around$1500 and a standard around $2000,and a custom around $2500.The prices for Gibson's is ridiculously expensive.I will stick with my Jackson's and EBMM guitars.They need to get there act together and stop over pricing everything because of the lineage of the name and not the quality.
I have a buddy who owns 4 pauls. 3 gibsons, 1 epi. Guess which one stays in tune. And the problems you describe? Unacceptable on an instrument at any price point. But somehow it walked right out gibson's door.
On the topic of people playing bad instruments well: My sister, who went to Juilliard pre-college for doublebass, did her audition on a plywood bass. She still got in because the teachers could tell how good she was. So yeah -- ultimately a terrific musician can make any instrument sound good.
Not true at all
Breaks my heart. I love Les Pauls but screw Gibson for making it impossible for the vast majority of musicians to own one. When I went big I bought a PRS Custom 24 and was WAY more impressed with it than a Les Paul Custom at a significantly higher price point.
I don't know many musicians who would feel comfortable taking out a 7 - 10,00 dollar custom shop guitar to gig with. Those guitars, as one of those guys said, are made for doctors and lawyers. Not working musicians.
I’m lucky enough to own a Gibson but it took some serious energy to save for it. They seriously need to get their prices down and get back to making top quality instruments.
“Don’t get me started on relicing.”
Ok I would really like to see this episode. 🤘
The whole company needs to be "reliced" imo.
I never noticed the cut just after 1:33 before, and I’ve watched this video like 4 times. Really slick editing.
Gibson priced out the average player. They got greedy and the average guy doesn’t buy a Gibson. Average everyday people are the ones buying.
Yep. Ten decent playing guitars. Not one of them a Gibson. Epiphone the same. Too expensive and underwhelming in comparison with the better quality from a competition brands.
have you priced a PRS or american fender ? or just living under a rock
@@AndyX everything has gone up in price- inflation and wage stagnation are to blame. For example: new tires for a car are super expensive and why they are just rubber?
Vladimir Lopez true but even their Marketing sucks I have a 1991 Firebird - they are not able to produce this quality now and their prices are ridiculous
Buy a squier fender
I'm 50 in a couple of months and for the first time in my life I can afford a new Gibson Les Paul Standard. The problem is I don't want one of the current ones, and I think that says a lot.
Same with me. I could afford two Gibson (banjos) 1928 and 1937 . A newer one? Not interested
J'ai 56 ans et je pense la même chose , j'ai une Gibson les Paul traditional HB 2012 payer 2000 euros que j'ai transformer en 59 custom shop fait maison et sa sonne , pour la transformer aux moins 600 euros de plus, elle est à 90% du model custom-shop Gibson, total 2600 euros au lieu 3500 et plus:
They're back! Just bought a 2020 Les Paul! It's sweet!
I had a 2018 standard. Wanted a lp standard my whole life. It was, eh. Traded it for a Martin acoustic and never felt bad about it. Won't buy another gibson.
@@user-qt5eh9wb7g That poor guy just spent a load crap of money in a "new" Gibson. Be more sensitive, please.
@@hifive7366 bro 2020 Gibson is actually good.
it is not, it is still more expensive than most people's mortgage payments which makes unreachable
Love classic Gibson guitars, but I wouldn't dream of buying a new one now. I've tried picking them up at music stores throughout the past decade.. Absolutely unplayable junk! Epiphone has surpassed Gibson, and it's really not even close now..
Yes, there is still live music. There is lots in western NC & upstate SC.
When you brought up the well-known tuning issues that brought back an interesting memory. Years ago I was at a Led Zeppelin concert and Jimmy Page was constantly fiddling around with his tuning pegs. I assumed it was just part of his well-known bizarre playing technique until I figured out that he was tuning his guitar in the middle of songs.
I bought the 2015 gold top deluxe with the G force tuner
Never had an issue and plays like a dream
Love the extra fretboard width
That's just my opinion
Only thing they swapped was the brass zero nut to titanium
Exactly! I have the 2015 SG and the G Force Tuner has worked perfectly since the day I bought it, and actually saved me so much time
All these negative stories are Bullshit... People who don’t own Gibsons and never tried them out are the ones spreading them.
I go to Guitar Center and Sam Ash around NYC all the time. to me Fenders off the rack are worse than Gibs and Epis!!! By a long shot!!! People are just piling on for the sake of hating!!! Truth!!!
i have a 97 les paul standard and i put locking grovers on it. stays in tune like a champ. zero issues.
I too could listen to Dave for hours, but I have a difference of opinion on lacquer finishes. They do not allow a guitar to "breathe." Breathing is taking in and expelling air. What lacquer actually does is allow moisture, not air, to enter and leave the guitar. I am an amateur builder, and I build a solidbody for myself every couple of years. I have used lacquer once in the past (spray cans) and I hated the smell and will no longer use it because of the smell, the health risks, and the lack of durability. My current choice is Minwax wipe-on poly. Two thin coats and I could not be happier with the results. I have owned and played both lacquer and poly finished guitars, and I honestly can't hear any difference. My hearing is excellent. When driving in my car I am always the first one to hear a siren. I can hear it even before my kids do. I am a retired Navy sonar technician, and my hearing was checked on a regular basis.
Also, a possible solution for players of 24 3/4 inch scale guitars might be using the new big core strings offered by a number of companies these days. These strings have noticeably more tension and stay in tune better than conventional core strings.
Anyways, I am not trying to piss you off or get under your skin. Your knowledge is clearly light-years beyond mine. I am just offering a few thoughts based on my own observations.
Since I was young I would just put the idea of buying a Gibson out of my mind ,and that's my Gibson experience.
Bingo.
PRS SE stepped in and filled that $550-$700 price point and mine has been a great guitar now for 10 years.
Hey Rick, we’re gonna need an update on this bad boy.
Two years ago I bought a Gibson J45 Cutaway brand new. It marked the 25th year since I started playing. I said if I am getting a new acoustic I am getting what I want. I have no regrets on that purchase. In two years time I’ll be 40 and I want a Gibson Les Paul Standard. I just hope the price doesn’t get driven up to much between now and then.
great format for this video. love the conversation type format!
A podcast without individual microphones.
I own a 2015 Epiphone Casino and am very happy with it. The Gibsons I own are a '78 'The Paul' and an '85 Les Paul Studio 'Standard.' I'm good with these three representations. Sad to see such an iconic name go down.
Mine's a 2013. LOVE it! It came with garbage fretwork, but most guitars do anyway - level, crown & polish fixed that. Installed Planet Waves 18:1 trim locks, and it's rock steady now. Tried the Pyramid Gold flatwounds, and I love them so they're staying. Final and best thing I did is Jason Lollar Dogears - they sound unreal. I own roughly 30 guitars, and this is the one I play 99% of the time. The Lollars take it from a 6/10 to a 10/10.
Well most are saying that the newer guitars are trash....
I have a 79 The Paul. Bought it new for $350 with a hardshell case. Still play it everyday and still sounds great. Ebony fretboard, grover tuners.Below the radar gem
ocan1033 My 1st guitar I got when I was 13 was a 79 The Paul with mods but I lost it being young and dumb some years back. I'd do anything to get it back. Could be bc I grew up playing it but I love the way it played better than any non-Gibson I've played. I haven't played any Epiphone but I was wondering how the better ones compare with Gibsons feel/playing style?
You know, guys, I have had a ton of Gibson and Epiphone guitars over the last 30 years and I've - honest to God - never had any issues with the tuning stability of any instrument that wasn't a direct result of a poor setup or a badly cut nut.
You guys really hit the nail on the head. I have a 1998 Les Paul Joe Perry sig (smoke burst) guitar. I got it from my mother (she bought it used then for $1800) for my high school graduation in 2001. I still have it today. I've modded it by putting locking Grover tuners on it, a reissue dirty fingers pickup in the bridge position, and a string butler on it just so the thing may stay in tune (spoiler alert, it doesn't even with graphite in the bone nut). The thing weights as much as an anvil. However, I love the tone and the way it plays. I was gigging with the thing for years and it literally gave me back problems. I had to tune after every song (and sometimes during a song break when I was tacet). I now only play strats and teles live and I have to tune them once; at the beginning of the set and they're good barring some unforeseen bump into a cymbal or my lead guitar player. They play great, sound great and guess what? I don't have back problems anymore. I will always have that guitar for recording, but that's all it's used for; and I'm tuning it every take. It's really sad, Gibson is literally known in pop culture as this amazing machine....I actually was going to buy a Gibson Songwriter deluxe for my acoustic gigs, but I bought a Martin instead because the Gibson's action was stupid high (I know it could be fixed), but the Martin just sat well in my hands (for almost 800$ less) and it was almost perfect right off the wall hanger in Guitar Center.
I don't buy the wood argument. Look at PRS. They use traditional tonewoods. They have models at all reasonable price points plus a custom shop. Quality is high at each price point. Shows what happens when you pay attention.
I recently traded my 2015 LP at a guitar shop for a new PRS S2 Mira semi-hollow. I paid a few bucks in the transaction. The G-Force tuner on the Les never worked right and broke strings. I had Grover locking tuners put on it. I traded because old injuries have made it painful to play the heavy LP, and the PRS is about half the weight, much easier to play (better upper fret access), stays in tune, has a broader tonal range, and is more resonant. To be fair, the LP sounded great like a Les Paul should, but it was a beast to play. At about $1,300, the PRS is a far better deal. I wish I could afford a PRS private stock guitar. PRS still has lots of that great maple with stunning grain. I agree with MultiInstrument Guy that you can get a fine U.S.-made PRS that looks good and performs well at any price point from about $1,000 through the $13,000 private stock (custom shop) models. The materials, tuners, pickups, aesthetics...always high quality.
With PRS having the founder at the helm makes all the difference, Paul has an amazing passion not only for His products but guitars and amps in general.I have met Paul and his enthusiasm is infectious.He simply looking loves what He does & obviously understands his market very well.from the SE guitar line right up to private stock they are all great guitars. It's a great shame with Gibson & I truly hope a buy out and change of leadership can happen ,but I think the hole may be too deep 😢
The difference is that Paul Reed Smith is a musician that understands how to run a guitar company and has guitars people can actually afford.
Even on the low end, epi has maintained an inventory of mahogany, rosewood and ebony, so I know it's still readily available. I've even been able to easily aquire standard tonewoods for guitars that I've built in my shop.
sorry but they chose the bad wood on purpose. It's way cheaper and if you're the head of a company that is working at the stock market you're only interested in numbers that have a big plus. Sorry but the thing with him beeing a guitarist is total bullshit. this guy can't even play.
Gibson can't get good wood anymore? I've been having the same issue lately.
eJacob Cornelius they have the same access to materials as the competition. That’s such a management cop out.....
Try eating vegetables.
So eJacobCornelus, how does your age compare to Gibson's age?
@@rogerloydmccoy warmoth has good wood, allparts, etc.
They make a pill for that
every time i hear the words gretch white falcon, i can feel shivers run down my spine
One of my favorite guitars is my 2015 Gibson Les Paul studio that is a single cutaway, dual HB, with dot inlays and fretboard binding that I got brand new from GC for $700. It was on sale that week only and was regularly $999. That said, a buddy of mine has bought about 5 different Les Paul standards and studios since then trying to find one that plays like mine. He hasn’t yet which is outrageous! He’s spent tons on them and I wouldn’t even play one of them, they suck so bad. My 2008 Les Paul standard is also an excellent, excellent, guitar I bought at Best Buy brand new for $1,800.
What is it in the guitars that makes your buddy's LP's suck? Any idea?
I have a Les Paul and a Strat. One thing that shocked me was the quality of the Korean PRS SE. I bought one for about $500 secondhand. Amazing guitar.
You got lucky, I’ve seen mainly horrible SE’s.
@@samblack5313 I still ahve it but also have an American one now.
Plus point: your PRS was amazing quality.
Minus point: it had those fuckwit birds on the fretboard.
Back in the day around 1959 Gibson was making guitars that considered today some of the beat guitars ever made and are highly desired today. A new Gibson around 1959 cost around $300. In today dollars that's is around $2500. In fact a new Gibson can cost double that. In addition the quality went down. Do, the problem today was lower quality at a high price.
Good discussion, another aspect of the story is that amps and effects have come a long way. When all is said and done not many people can hear the difference between a bone nut and a composite nut, which makes the most important aspect about guitars to me being feel and price point. I am surprised more hasn't been done in the evolution of guitar pickups like making them easier to swap out, which can have an audible tone change
there is such companies that make swappable pickups. can't recall names but a google search will yield satisfactory results
Love listening to folks in the field who know what they're talking about.
Thanks for the candid take on the topic, gentlemen.
I have always wanted a Gibson Les Paul Custom. Around 2010 I finally had the money to get one. I went to two local Sam Ash stores and two local Guitar Centers and tried three different black ones and a white one. At the first Sam Ash I played a black one. The finish had an orange peel like feel to the neck, and it was all sticky. Don't know if someone in the store did something to it or not, but it was not at customer grab level, someone had to pull off the wall from on high. I then went to the next Sam Ash and played another black one. The nut wasn't centered at all and had like plastic 'hair' coming off of it. The pickup switch was all loose too. I then went to Guitar Center that wasn't that far away and played another black one. The sales associate pulls it off of the wall and I notice these three huge 'claw' marks on the back, like a bear clawed at it. The sales dude said he could take $100.00 off the price. Yes I realize that this probably wasn't Gibson's fault, but come on. I played it anyway and it wasn't set up at all. The action was way too high, the strings were all rusty. I was just turned off by the whole thing. I went to the last Guitar Center and played a white one, but like the first black one I played that day the finish was all sticky and felt like an orange peel. These were going for about $3800.00 then. For that cash I expected pretty close to perfection. I was dejected. I really wanted on. A friend mentioned Edwards from Japan. I looked into it and ordered one for $800.00. It showed up about a week later and it was perfect. Finish was flawless and glassy smooth, the intonation and action were perfect. It came with Seymour Duncan JB and 59 pickups. This is exactly what I was expecting the Gibson's to be. The only thing I changed on it were locking tuners and strap locks. It really is a shame that Gibson has dropped the ball. I have a friend that has a wine red Gibson Les Paul Custom from the early 2000's and that sucker is friggin' awesome. He won't sell it to me, but said he would leave it to me in his will. lol
I also have a 2013 Les Paul Supreme that I really love. Plays and looks great. Very resonant. I am a little upset because I was told by the dealer that the fret board was ebony, only to find out today that it is actually cardboard (don't remember the Gibson spin name). I paid about $2300 for it and am a little upset about the fret board.
To end this story, I just heard about the Chinese Gibson copies. I plunked down $236.00 for a transparent blue burst custom. If it sucks it sucks, but it cannot be any worse than the real customs that I played here locally. A shame.
Ahh Edwards, I used to own their gold top Les Paul that helped me get through my jazz degree and had chance to compare to several Gibsons.
Edwards neck was so much easier to play, and the guitar was a lot lighter too. SD pickups sounded better in the mix compared to Gibson pickups which were usually too muddy in ensemble situations.
So with the gc issue you can go to seat water I have gotten guitars that had such light scratches you need a flashlight to find it and get $100 off easy
Plus a bag of candy does make every order a little better and more memorable.
Good plan to me have them get a rush of dopamine from sugar while unboxing gear from your shop.
I had to look up what relic'ing a guitar was, and now I'm ashamed at humans in general
It can do a lot for a boring guitar, not what I'd ever do with something nice.
For that "I dig ditches during the day with my guitar" look.
relic'ing...aka poser guitars. 'oh look how worn this guitar looks!.....now I can trick people into thinking I'm a legendary musician!' YAY!!! Beyond lame.
There's this guy in my local guitar group who sells these no name shitty looking guitars. And has these lame descriptions as if its tone can cure cancer. Someone asked for a sound sample. He responded "it would be a waste of my time as not everybody is as versed to truly appreciate it" that made me puke
@@necurrence1776 Gee, I bet that guy sells a lot of guitars... :\
OK, I'm glad to see this; I was on my way to buy a J-200 acoustic, but now I've got second thoughts. I really want a high-quality guitar because I'm tired of playing the overseas boxes under $1K that just aren't good enough.
They also discontinued cakewalk Sonar development, which has really fried me personally as that is my favorite DAW since I started using various DAWs over the last few years. All we got was a sudden notice that development will stop. No pre warning leading up to this. So as a subscriber for rolling updates for a year, the rest of the time I had paid for is up in the dirt. Screw huge corporations IMHO. They just ruin things. I should know, I delt with one when I worked for a sample dev company.
Switch to Reaper and be happy :)
Tried the demo version and routing Vienna Ensemble is not working so far. The routing system is tricky. Should give it another try though as eventually Sonar, like all Windows versions, will eventually stop working. However I doubt it will be for a few years.
Yep, I still use Cakewalk as a tape machine and print to it during mastering. Done so for the past 10 years.
Still use CW Sonar Pro. Never cared for Gibson, but once they tanked CW I never want to see that name brand again. POS company.
That’s how I’m feeling about Cake Walk as well! ...and corporate just about anything.
Q: Is Gibson done? A: Yep!
The Quality Control is horrible ...Ive seen 59 CS Les Pauls where they simply forgot to File the nut. Absolute Unplayable...On a 5K Guitar?
I've been to the Memphis Gibson factory twice, and it's an amazing tour. However, my three Gibsons ('64-335 / '68-175 / '59-EB0) are all from Kalamazoo. I was visiting Songbirds Guitar Museum in Chattanooga the day they announced the Gibson Bankruptcy. Great podcast.
Excellent info about why slack key tunings aren't for shorter scale length guitars or for guitar companies who don't understand why double basses are huge and violins are small.
I absolutely agree with everything you guys said here. I’ve been preaching for a long time about Gibson making only their core guitars, and concentrating on making them GOOD. I play a Les Paul Studio from 2013, and before that I played an SG Standard from 2008. I’ve been extremely lucky that both of them were fabulous and played excellent. Great video.
Most of the debt we are talking about has nothing to do with guitars. The guitar line will survive.
Two things.
First… the wood they started with wasn’t necessary hand selected old growth… it was just what they COuLd get. They didn’t have a lot of choices at the time since guitars weren’t the primary buyers of wood. Furniture makers got the choice bits back then. They got leftovers. (But it was still good old growth)
Second, if you want your new acoustic to have that “50 year old warmth” there’s a luthier trick.
Place a 10” speaker over the hole and turn on the radio… for 2 months.
After 2 months your guitar will have 50 years worth of vibrations in it and will sound pretty close to what the old ones sound like. 😎
I have a 89 Les Paul studio, made in Nashville with an ebony fret board, carved maple top! It plays and sound amazing. Only mods are cream pickup frames, pick guard, pickup switch, and changed the knobs to top hats!….. did I say ebony!
I have a Gibson Epiphone special thats great. I have a son thats an amazing player but your right ; we can't pay alot for a nice guitar. The $500 to $750 range is a good target because it's hard for us to even come up with this. Great video
especially if you want to have more than one, and cases aren't cheap either
If price dictates if a guitar is good then EVH did it wrong, because he built his famous guitar from seconds that were sitting in a bin
Did you really tell people drying out acoustic wood is why it sounds better with age? Raise your hand if you’ve heard of a guitar humidifier. Raise your hand if you’ve had a cracked top or sides from drying out.
Wood petrifies. Have you ever tried to hammer a nail into a piece of 100 yr old timber? Thats what happening. Otherwise, manufacturers would just dry it down to 3% and have a classic. Going to have to disagree with you on why old guitar sound better sir.
The use of the term 'drying' is misleading. I don't think we're talking about moisture here, but rather the crystallisation of what would once (on a living tree) have been sap, which then turns to resin and then further changes, at a molecular level, over time. When this gradual process occurs naturally - not via kiln drying - it can make for more responsive and resonant vibrations within an instrument.
I agree.
If resonance is what you want, get a Trussart steel guitar. Wood is a massively ineeficient resonator.
I agree with Rod. You have to think of it like the wood is aging and the oils and resins are drying over time. It's not moisture, but the wood is drying so to speak. Laminate finishes will prolong the aging since it seals the wood. Also, this is why roasted maple is becoming more popular. It's basically stabilizing the wood by mimicking the aging process.
I have a 1980 Guild Acoustic Rosewood. Dumb question: Should I be storing it in a case with a humidifier to prevent warping? So far it has not warped in a California climate.
for a relaxed open discussion you guys did an amazing job. all I previously knew anything about was fit and finish problems and the obvious expense issue. sub earned
I'm just a beginner, (knowing absolutely nothing about guitar I am a flutist all my life and just now (I'm 54) entering the guitar world)
and after this, I will shy away from Gibson because of the scale length issue. And I'm a fan of Zakk Wylde who made the Les Paul famous for his drop D tuneings, now i have to re-think pursuing a Les Paul and think about another brand. THANK YOU\m/\m/ Rock ON!
SlippstersVideos You can't go wrong with a PRS if you want quality and to drop tune.
Scale length issue??? 😂😂😂 there is none!!! Don’t listen to these idiots talking about scale lengths!!! 😂😂😂🙄 millions of smaller length scale guitars have been sold Fender has them Jazzmasters and mustangs too don’t listen to these crackpots!!!😂😂
Scale length is subjective. It is much easier to bend notes on a shorter scale guitar. Plus it will handle heavier guage strings and still be very playable. I thought the break angle was the cause of the tuning problem. But i don't detune so ... Just ignore me.
I have 3 Gibson guitars, 1 LP classic from 2002, 1 ES335 dot from 2013 and a SG std from 2015. The only one that has tuning issues is the SG, and I blame that on the robot tuners, not the scale length. (the others have traditional tuners)
For anyone complaining hard about the prices, you should note that adjusted for inflation, a 1959 Les Paul Standard (actually $269 then...) was $2350 . The same model goes for $2499 these days brand new. This doesn't even account for the exponentially increasing costs over the last half century in wood and labor. It's very hard to make money selling guitars. Gibson was NEVER a company selling guitars for 'the working guy' or anything like that. They were always super-luxury guitars.
The problem is people's wages have not kept up with inflation.
But their problem was selling their modern( LP, SG, and Bass) guitars with antiquated bridges, quality control issues, and unreliable solder jobs on top of the luxury price. Especially with PRS on the rise.
@@Enjoimaschine Epiphone value increased as Gibson dragged itself down
I got an sgj in 2014 for 500 new, that’s not possible today all of em are over a grand . Not to mention all those tribute 60/70/80 models, a lot of those were good if u sat down st the store, many were amazing and didn’t have the crap laqcuer, they should keep doing that, those guitars were very unique sounding
@@heythere6983 Agreed, I love my 2014 SGJ, bare bones rock machines.
Rick, I'm hooked. I can't get anything done, at least for a couple hours a week. I have to wean myself off of your videos sometimes
. So , so great!! Please keep it up! I'm a huge fan now. Thank you.
I sent a Flying V that I've owned for almost 40 years to a Gibson dealer a little over a year ago. They kept it for 6 months. All I wanted was new tuners, bridge and tailpiece. They said Gibson would not send parts to dealers because they were using them for new builds. I had to buy parts online and take them to the shop to get the work done. Im just a couch player and the only reason I am able to own a Gibson is because I bought it when it was 5 years old. I love the guitar because I learned to play on it and it has a great sound. I was very disappointed with the hassle and expenses I ran into because of Gibson.
Absolutely love listening to y’all talk.
Maybe Epiphone is having the last laugh.
From what I understand, Epiphone is part of Gibson, essentially their brand for lower cost guitars, just as Squire is for Fender. If this is the case, they are in this together (unless Gibson decides to sell the Epiphone brand ...)
@@danielwustenberg4107 What I believe Penelope meant was that Epiphone were originally a smaller company to Gibson, but growing fast, and made superior guitars. In order to get rid of the competition, Gibson simply bought them and stripped out their expertise. That doesn't sit right with a lot of people.
Stathopoulos sends his regards
I bought an Epiphone Sheraton in all white back in '96--my first electric purchase. I have loved her every day since. I would have always loved to own an ES-335 but WAY too expensive which essentially led me to become a Tele player on the higher end of spectrum....
Well, Ibanez is having the last laugh, getting sued in the 70s and now doing way better than the "original"
I have a late model 90's Manny's Music Gibson faded special and a Paul Reed Smith Abalone inlay $3000.00 w/ Macarty pickups and I play the Gibson all day long. Swapped out the pickups and sanded the neck. Plays like a dream. I love that faded special.
Many of us are going to companies like Rondo (their Agile line,) while some of us are going to a second market like Reverb or eBay for good guitars of yester year that are being emptied out of closets and from under beds. When Gibson introduced the e-tuner, and I saw the prices on their newer line guitars (NAMM,) I stopped looking for additions to my arsenal in places like Sweetwater, Musicians' Friend, and the like. From then on I new I had to have other sources. Great discussion video; thanks, guys. Hope you do some more; like where is the music industry at for gigging out, and the future of music for musicians, etc. Cheers!
Exactly! I work at gc and maaaannnnn the quality control is bogus and to get something good it's $4000 and up! Make great guitars in the 1-2000 and y'all will be fine!
Just Marvin not necessarily kiesel makes great guitars 1-2000 made in America. I got one on the way end of march.
Cars, music instruments, diamond rings are all inflated more than their worth.
Eastern Cowboy Guns too.
Most cars on the lower end are not inflated more than their worth. Ford doesn't make much on Fiestas. They make a ton on their trucks though. Gibson tried to ride their name for years and years, and are now paying the piper. I had a 1978 The Paul Firebrand that wasn't as nice as my 1979 Peavey T-60, just like my $6500 Weber mandolin kicks a $15000 Gibson Fern's arse
Buy a top notch pedal steel and you will find a killer value!
Fake boobs, too!
The Ford Fiesta example is funny. Ford has announced they will stop selling cars all together (except Mustang) soon and only make SUVs and trucks.
I started to play learning on my Dad's '66 Fender Mustang when I was 11, in '88.
I would say the PRS wave started even earlier. One of my favorite mainstream bands, 311, was using PRS back in the early-mid 90s. Also, Carlos Santana. Lot of 90s garage band players seaked those PRS's way before the new metal wave in the late 90s early 00s. The college rock bands circuiting around those same years (early-mid 90s) also many of those players were adopting PRS. As a player, the lower action you could get on a PRS was also a huge plus, and they were so durable, light and just got you closer to expression without thinking about an instrument in the way. I still have my 92' CE24. To this day, it's just an amazing instrument.
And in the end ...A thousand dollar guitar player ... playing a fifty dollar guitar ..will always sound better than ...a fifty dollar guitar player ... playing a thousand dollar guitar 😎🎸
True. But if you can afford it. A good guitar made with decent old growth wood constructed by a skilled luthier will help inspire you every time your fingers do the walking.
This is very true. I've played the guitar for over a decade and picking up a Les Paul and playing sounds way better than when I home and play on my $400 Ibanez. But, don't get me wrong, Ibanez makes very good guitars for the price.
Case in point, Jack Pearson on a Squier.
hear, hear..
That would be absolutely correct, good point.
How hard is it to make 5 models of guitar, and make 3 options of each. Traditional, modern, cheap.
Les Paul.
Es 335
Sg
Flying V
Double cut.
Would love to see an updated follow up on this topic. I’m looking at the Gibson Les Paul 60s Standard for $2700. I owned a 70s deluxe in my teens. Bought it used in 1980 along with an amp all for $600. Wish I had kept them both! It was a great guitar.
i have a self tuner 2015 Paul . The self tuner blows, i removed within hours ) . But why i bought the 2015 Paul is because it has a wider nut which for larger hands /fingers can make playing easier . Plus mini humbuckers , Love them , and a switch for single coil , which I've always add to my other pauls , and a +10 db switch for solo's .
Best video I've seen on this subject. You have nailed all the reasons Gibson are in this position.
I’ve played Fenders and PRSs all my life. I could never figure out why I could never be in tune with another guitarist playing a Gibson. Until this moment, I always figured I was doing something wrong. 😆😆😆
He talks about an old Fender Mustang. Basically my first guitar was a "hand me down" from my dad. It was a 1963 Fender Jaguar which I used on recordings for my first punk band in NJ. RoseMarys Babies was the band name and the drummer to claim fame in the band Danzig. I still have the guitar and will never get rid of it.
I own 2 Les Paul Standard HP's: a 2016 and a 2017. I gig with them and I love the Robotuners. Plus the neck shape and the scarfing make it more playable - and the titanium nut and bridge pieces work great to prevent string breaks and the infamous untunable G due to the 17 degree headstock is finally solved. Plus the figured maple top is amazeballs. Not everything Henry did was dumb.
Jonny5stars: are you his nephew or something?
When I was 12-13 my grandma gave me her old acoustic. She said she saved up for a couple of weeks about 20-30 years prior working a junk job to buy it. I'm 21 now and I still play it almost every day. I've had friends ask me why I play such an old piece of "junk" but it's the guitar that's always inspired me. It an old Takamine G series. I'm mainly a blues/folk guy and will ALWAYS play this guitar. I love it like I love her. These guys are right, Gibson may not always make the best stuff anymore, but most importantly play what you love. Play what inspires you. Hell play what you can get your hands on. Thanks again Memaw for showing me my first four chords.
The price is very high in no small part because they're using the profitable part of the business to service the debt on the stupid parts.
crimfan Came here to say THIS! Leaving satisfied. I believe there is a viable business underneath the steaming pile of crud on their balance sheet. They should have recalled the days of CBS-Fender and realized that loading up on debt and vertically integrating doesn't work.
Not just junked out guitars, but all the stupid branded consumer electronics and other lifestyle junk.
It's a classic problem. Vertical integration often sounds great but it's much harder to pull off than many suppose when the leadership doesn't understand the newly acquired businesses. Lots of companies have all sorts of side deals, people sucking at the teat, etc. I bet Gibson has a bunch. I'd be really surprised if the stupid side businesses aren't full of mediocre relatives and ex-spouses on the payroll, and so on. It takes a special kind of idiot to come up with Les Paul themed studio monitors.
Short of getting sold and having a hard housecleaning, this won't change.
Example: My dad used to be the general manager of a company. He did a bunch of cost/benefit analysis and showed pretty strongly that about half the business didn't make money, essentially that the profitable parts of the business were subsidizing parts that were breaking even at best. He went to the people above him and presented the case for selling those parts of the business and focusing on the parts that made more money while looking for other avenues for investment, which would have dropped the capitalization of the company. Nope, evidently the owner preferred to hang out with the higher capitalization people and be viewed as an "innovator", so they let yet another GM go. I'm sure the previous GM had said much the same thing a few years before!
This happens way more often than people think.
A couple of positive comments on the automatic tuner system: I play a lot of outdoor gigs in Arizona. With sunshine and significant temperature changes during a gig, it is easy to retune in about 3-5 seconds between songs. One more plus, re-tuning to Eb (or other non-standard tunings) from standard and back takes around 8 seconds. But, this is pretty specific to my needs.
Throughout my youth ... I could never afford a Gibson unless it was a cheap SG ... and the headstock breakage issue was ALWAYS on my mind and of course poor tuning . I lost 2 SG's and ,eventually, found the virtually indestructible TELECASTER... and have played them ,religiously, ever since. THIS is why I have only 1 Gibson and 95% of my collection are Fender products ( mostly Telecasters ). Once Again ... Great Subject & Insights Thanks !
These guys are the real deal. Gibson must hate them for telling it like it is.
its time for big G to take their medicine...then sit down for a 7 course dinner of crow. Arrogant, ignorant dipshits -full stop
yeah, what would be good, is hearing what all the old hands who work in the factories think?
No the repairman makes factual errors and obscures them colloquialisms and unrelated tangents.
If the Gibson leadership had any brains they'd hire these guys.
Hey guys, I worked at Gibson Memphis from 2007-2012 and it was really cool seeing models from my era of being there. Depending on how early I was there, I did all the slack belt sanding in the beginning and ran all the CNC machines 2009-2012. *We also made the white Les Paul Customs...the only Les Paul we did. The Howard Roberts Fusion guitar was an under rated master work. Note also that we did all the Double neck sg models. Everything else was 335s, 339s, 355s, 345s, Lucilles, 175s, and.... 137s....which i didn't like
Excellent video. You guys are spot on! Sad to see them lose their way.
And let's not forget those "reverse" models of recent years. A friend of mine nailed it when he said the Reverse V looked like a paper clip. Not just ugly. Those were FUGLY!
The CEO of Gibson did what a lot of (stupid) CEOs do.. He created a ton of debt to open up what he thought would be growth areas for Gibson, but it didn't fly as he expected. This left Gibson with a ton of debt and very little way to pay it off. Raising prices on your products in these situations doesn't cut it because your prices also are related to the demand for your product (this is basic economics in play). Yes.. if the demand stays the same you get more money.. but there is no guarantee that a price change will result in more revenue, precisely because you are impacting your demand with the price change.
To me, the first rule of running a business is, never ever create so much debt that if your idea doesn't play out you can't recover from it. This is the rule Gibson broke and now the entire company is at risk. Its very sad, but its where they are.
I'm not expert on guitars, but I've followed this story since my interest is business. And many companies over the years have made this same mistake, generally to quite catastrophic results.
Debt can be a useful tool in your toolbox for creating growth in a business, but you must plan for things going badly, otherwise the tool will cut you badly.
Exactly. That's the main reason they are in trouble, Henry got too overzealous with investment opportunities, and they've yet to make a return on that investment.
The QC with the guitars and the quality can be easily fixed, but to fix the issues Gibson has now, you'd need to get rid of the CEO and find one that won't get overzealous with spending and bring the company to ruin.
and gibson was already pushing the upper limits of the market (for regular people) to begin with.
Your perspective on this issue is good.
This is the problem with publicly traded companies- they are beholden to shareholders who demand growth to ensure that their return on investment is juicy. Growth for growth’s sake is never a good idea.
Most CEOs don't know what they're doing AND ARE ONLY WHERE THEY ARE BECUASE THEY MARRIED SOMEBODY'S FAT UGLY DAUGHTER.
Dang, I should have bought that early 70's green Les Paul in 1990 for $500 when I had the chance.
The 2013 & 2014 LPJ and SGJ are some of the best guitars they made in a super long time. Quarter sawn maple necks!
The custom shop reissues do go up in value over time. I was gifted a 1960 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst Reissue from a record company back in 1989. They paid around $1,200 for it back then, which was expensive at that time. I played it quite a bit when I was performing, then put it away for 20 years. I recently sold it for $4,500. I also got a 1989 SJ-200 (I believe it was a custom model) they bought for me for around $900. I sold it around 1996 for around $1,000. What would that guitar be worth in good condition today? At least $3,000 I would imagine.
I'm still mad at Gibson for buying Ensoniq synthesizers then killing them, as if this would keep people from buying synthesizers.