highly intelligent autistic females have highly acute perception. So whatever is missing in terms of traditional social perception can be "emulated" through cognitive effort. this may be due to evolutionary needs of women to be perceptive of the body language of others for defensive purposes, and there is also the nuture side of women having their behavior being much more socially regulated
Wow yes Tugger, I just got called out for something and realized, wow if I were a man I wouldn’t be chastised for this..it would be more acceptable that I were just forgetful, which I am. Seems it can be an irritating quality to all but it comes across as much more endearing when displayed by a man and a major character fault in a woman who seem expected to be nurturing enough to not be forgetful
Life is hard no matter what. It's the human condition. Being male comes with ceratin culturally determined obligations, expectations, and responsibilities. The same goes for females. There is some overlapin modern Western societies, not much in tradional cultures. Specilization by gender was an adpative response to evolutionary pressures. Some of it's arbitrary, but not much. The thing is, most developed cultures revolve around large cities and beuracracies mediated by information technology. The enviroment and our knowlege base has changed faster than our culture, and that's created problems and confusion and stress for both genders. Now, add in autism! A relatively rare, 1:50 sort of thing that's both obvious and yet difficult to diagnose. Males and females both tend to mask in order to fit in to social roles and hierarchies - at great emotional, cognitive, and even psysiological cost. Becuase our social roles are different, males and females on the spectrum face different challenges. Males and females tend to differ from an emotional standpoint anyway. I'm starting to think of my autism as the nuerological bedrock of my conciousness. Conciousness is made up of sensory perception and physiological and emotional resposes to them. This gives rise to the inner voice - the narrator / calculator we experience as the self. The rational inner voice uses emotion, memory, and sensory data to create reality as it expereinces it. This is what we experience as conciousness. Now I think it's safe to say everyone experiences the world in a unique way. In order to function socially, we must build and share a consensus about reality to extent. The more different your experience is from average, the less likely you are to find others with enough experiential overlap or common conciousness ground to interact constructively or durably. Autism reflects a different reality. It's just as valid a reality, it's just that it's sensory and cognitive neurological foundations are more highly pitched and tuned. Like a Stratvarius violin we are rare specialized instruments that require more care than more common specilized instruments like hammers. We play a different in the evoltionary story of humans. Hammers are critical to civilization. So is art and music. Trying to play Beethoven on a hammer is a bad idea. Traying to use a violin to nail a house together isn't gonna end well for the violin. That's what it's like for a person with autism to be forced or to force themselves to be nuerotypical or to have to work at something they are not suited for. You won't hurt a hammer trying to play it like a violin. You will destroy a violin if you try to use it like a hammer.
My brother and I (I’m female) both have ASD, and I’ve really thought a lot about our differences because he was diagnosed when he was a teenager, and I was diagnosed in my late 20s. When it comes to being social, my brother has a much harder time than I do. While I prefer to be left alone all the time, society dictates that women be friendly and smile when someone speaks to you. It makes me uncomfortable, but it’s better than being berated or bullied for not holding up those stupid standards. Unfortunately, my panic attacks became more severe because of forced socializationIf he reacts negatively to being touched, it’s ok. But if I react negatively, I’m being a bitch and rude. When I don’t speak to people for a period of time, people will bother me, yell at me, or whatever. When my brother doesn’t speak to people for a certain amount of time, no one questions it at all. He will go a week at a time usually, whereas someone will bother me if I even just sleep in. It’s incredibly frustrating. Contrary to preferring isolation, I also feel the need to for acceptance, but my brother just doesn’t care. This is a hard balance because I generally just dislike people, but I also don’t want to be hated. I’m not sure if this is due to my more prominent anxiety, or gender roles, or what; but it is very difficult. I’m mysophobic, but my brother is not. Being sanitary is something that helps me feel calm if I haven’t been able to react strongly (in the presence of others) to something that has bothered me. When I was younger, I would physically hurt myself by forcing my legs and arms into painful positions if something was upsetting. My brother was allowed to be more violent by punching and kicking walls. “Girls don’t do that!” So I think gender standards have a large impact on females masking more than males, and thus leading to being underdiagnosed. Some good things that have come about from our differences is that me having ADHD as well as ASD (he is not diagnosed with ADHD) results in me being able to notice and remember nearly everything that happens. I’m not entirely sure how this happens as I don’t even realize that my mind is notating everything; but when someone needs to know what someone did or said, regardless of when, I automatically know. I’m more sensitive with the 5 senses, but I actually like being able to notice sounds or smells that other people do not (however, it’s not fun when no one believes me lol) I do want to add that I don’t like referring to my ASD as a disability. Even though it can be crippling in circumstances, it can also be wildly beautiful. I have a near perfect echoic memory, and a pretty good eidetic memory. My echoic memory allows me to play any instrument by ear and mimic accents and languages with extraordinary accuracy. I’m also amazing with animals. They always love and respect me, and I can understand them almost 100% of the time, I prefer to just think of myself as different.
the need to be accepted might go hand in hand with your boundaries and needs not being respected. It is what it is, but it's good to know if you feel the need to change the pattern.
I'm male and middle aged and just recently diagnosed. I agree with everything you say here. Scientists and psychologists need to stop trying "cure" autism and recognize , accept and support it as a difference similar to other penotypical differences between people like height or skin color, intelectual capacity, or sexuality. Post diagnosis I realed that ALL of the difficulties associated with my autistic nuerology were caused by external events and circumstances, and not understanding how they interact with me phisologically to create the shame, stress and anxiety that was the center of my cognitive experience of the world. All of it was inflicted on me starting in childhood, and continued non-stop whenever I attempted to interact with groups of people. I'm fine one on one because I can track a single person cognitively. I'm also good as a leader (I was an architect and a college professor for many years) but that always brought extreme stress and eventually, life and career meltdowns. I have an extremely high IQ and am gifted when it comes to music and art, but I have severe deficits when it comes to social interaction (I cannot sense social cues in large groups and am verbose / pedantic) and with language (my spelling is a nightmare) as well as math (I cannot add / subtract / multiply or divide easily in my head like a typical 4th grader, and I only got through algebra and trig and physics in college because of sheer force of will and the development of pocket calculators) One of the most difficult features of my autism / nuerodiversity is my high IQ. It was identified in the early 70s when I first attended public school and had behavioral difficulties because of my sensory issues with loud crowded spaces (first grade classroom) and acted out by standing up on my desk and screaming "SHUT THE F_____ UP!!!" over and over and over. I'm serious - that's what I did because it actaully HURT to be forced to sit still in that enviroment. So I was sent to the principals office repeatedly. They thought I was "hyperactive" but testing revealed a "gifted" level IQ. That meant that for the rest of my life, I was seen as "privledged" rather than "disabled". When I failed to learn to read or had difficulties with math or social interactions, it was because I was "lazy" "didn't apply myself" or was "angry" or a "geek". My intellegence and verbosity tend to either intimidate or make nuerotypical people jealous and resentful - especially in workplaces, where they routinely undermined my efforts to improve productivity - covertly and sometimes even collectively. My forthright communication style and lack of sensitivity and awareness of nuerotypical social sensitivities and norms doomed me. I'm basically unemployable despite my professional degree, architect's lisence, and teaching skills. I'm socially isolated, which I don't like but have learned to cope with. I'm also poor now, but by choice, and live within my means on a small teaching pension, and make a little money as a solo muscian. ...and I'm the happiest I've ever been, because I'm finally free to pursue my special interests and passions full-time. I'm not forced to interact all day with hostile nuerotypical people I don't understand, and who don't understand who I am, much less accept me. Most importantly, I'm not bitter or angry anymore. My autism diagnosis finally unified everything, allowing me to see myself and behavior within the context of a nuerotypical world as the root of my difficulties. They are not the result of any sort of moral failure on my part or of nuerotypical people. For the most part. I'm certainly no angel and have character flaws like anyone else. I've also encountered my fair share of evil, manipulative, mean, bullying, exploitive people - starting with my own mother. But most of the people who did me harm didn't intend to. All of the harm I've done to others was unintentional - the result of cluelessness, fear, anger, or some sort of emotional blindness or meltdown I had no control over due to my nuerology. Now I'm trying to figure out how to move forward and interact positively with the world with a new understanding of my limitations, and those of neurotypical people when dealing with me. It can't be any easier for them than it is for me - except that they have a lot more people like themselves for support, and so they rule world. Which makes perfect sense if you think about it.
I relate a lot to your situation. I am also a female with autism and my brother has it too. Except I haven't been diagnosed yet. I understand how you feel about seeming to have more pressure on you.
Women are also under-diagnosed with ADHD because we tend to display more of the inattentive features versus the hyperactive features that initially concern parents and teachers. I hope one day women can be included more in studies to understand how illness affects us differently from men, and how we may respond differently to treatments.
Yes! I was diagnosed with ADHD at 7 it just showed differently. it’s pretty severe even now at 25. But my family stopped letting me take medication. It honestly was such a huge help for me in a lot of aspects of my life. But after a while my father just said I’m fine and I don’t need medication or help. Even now when speaking to my family about it they still say ehh your fine you don’t need it.
The one thing we autistic females have in common more than anything else is a (mis)diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder. The amount of girls who are denied help because of a misdiagnosed with BPD is astronomical, not to mention extremely damaging to the autistic victim. It's so common, in fact, that I think BPD should only be an official diagnose if autism has also been tested for. I am a huge advocate for this (as I have been through it) and my heart breaks every time a new autistic girl talks about having to ask their mental healthcare professionals for an autism test when most girls have no idea that's even a thing.
True. Was diagnosed as a BPD for 4 years been told by doctors that I was manipulative, using self harm behaviors and eating disorders to spite others in order to get what I want. I guess the problem is, there are a bunch of similar symptoms if you care not to have a closer look because if you follow DSM criteria, a bunch of misdiagnosis will occur: 1) Strained social relationships - BPD present in more vicious cycles 2) Emotional dysregulation - BPD more of identity emptiness, Autism more of frustration, anger 3) Self harm behaviors - BPD stronger tendencies, but Autism stimming like head banging (I do that) and I used eating disorder to stim as well. Another similarity 4) Generalized personality disorder - lack of connection to norms where Autism, brain just wired differently 5) Asocial behaviors for whatever reason But being labeled a BPD and a manipulative and bad person did not do good to me. I am now better because I stopped going to see psychiatrists regularly. I just quit doing the vicious cycles of me executive dysfunctioning and going to appointments late and them saying you're lazy and if you want to prove you are not, come on time - but I can't, and it is not laziness. 6) This is just for me. I was observed to have attention deficit problems for a year and I told the psychiatrists my attention is so bad sometimes I just don't know where I am and what I'm doing. I feel disconnected. And I was told that was not Attention Deficit, but severe dissociative episodes. As a person who was also diagnosed with Major Depression , Anxiety Disorders with social phobia, complex trauma, and in remission from an OCD diagnosis I never believed was a proper diagnosis, it was not easy. And it still is not easy now. Even though right now I am finally told I have ADD and ASD and was misdiagnosed with BPD for 4 years. In the 4 years I read all about BPD and tried to fix myself from my diagnosis, but I just got worse. My doctors were happy treating a bunch of symptoms without digging the root cause, I wasn't. Doctor when they see many patients are actually the one who gets lazy, you'd think a misdiagnosis would not mean much, but after 16 years being a mental health consumer and so heavily medicated that I feel like a drug addict, I wish the 16 years did not happen. I was first brought to the clinic age 11 for head banging, but I was not diagnosed with anything except for stress. I'd have hoped doctors would have been more careful. Because the reality was that then - I did not know how to tell people I was stressed other than head banging and now, I still do not know how to tell doctors that "I think I am Autistic" The problem is until this week, I never knew how to explain my difference, or communicate to doctors that all they are seeing is my surface behavior, not my hidden self. I am selectively mute. I can be hyper self aware now, and when I go to the consultation room, anxiety can cause me to forget everything. With unforgiving doctors, this just is a bad vicious cycle that goes on for decades without reaching a solution, and both myself and doctors get frustrated with a chronic case that could have been solved if we just gave each other some more TIME to understand client, instead of their surface behavior.
@Yexuan Yuan Thank you so much for sharing your story, I appreciate it more than I can express and it touched my heart. Your story is exactly why I am such a huge advocate for autistic women getting the correct diagnoses and the mental health help we desperately need instead of being labeled as Borderline which makes us out to be mental terrorists with self-serving motivations. Time and time again, I've heard stories like yours of women who have spent significant portions of their lives thinking they were terrible people who just couldn't stop these "borderline cycles" and making everyone around them miserable when in actuality they were the victims of a biased system who would rather misdiagnose female autists than actually help them. It also does not help in the slightest that we autistic girls tend to have histories of being abused and/or significant mistreatment in the formative years because we are the perfect targets since we have a hard time not showing badies that bad things get to us. Our parents don't understand, our peers don't understand, we don't even understand, but predators can pick up on this in us. It is truly a tragedy, and I am so very sorry this messed up system has failed you as well. Unfortunately because of our stronger masking abilities, most of us aren't diagnosed until our late twenties when we start having children who usually turn out autistic. I have heard FAR too many stories though of women who have asked their mental health professionals about autism only to be told "only boys can be autistic," which honestly is leading me to believe our current system is more comfortable thinking women WANT to be like this and boys don't. I am by no means a feminist but this is one area where we are most definitely actively harming more and more girls every single day that we don't take them seriously when they say they do not know what is wrong. No one else should ever have to go through what you have gone through, and it pains me so greatly that you are not alone, though I am honoured to be among such good company in this struggle. I do not yet know exactly what we can do, and I can't say much that things really get better. I have been told by every single doctor in any and every field that I am autistic but there is no point in getting an official diagnosis because it's not like it will do anything. In fact, the only reason I am now even getting the official diagnosis is because I had significant head trauma back in September 2019 that I never sought out medical help for (as it was an issue of domestic violence and I had zero trust in anything having to do with the medical industry in my head because of how I've always been treated as a female with autism) and am JUST NOW being taken seriously over it as my cognitive function has declined dramatically just over the course of this year. But sharing our stories with each other and reaching out, even if it's just in UA-cam comments, to let each other know we're not alone is so incredibly powerful. I am sorry for the long reply. I hope you have a happy and healthy 2022. Together, we've got this. Stay safe and much love!
I was misdiagnosed as having Borderline Personality Disorder. It was very bad for my mental health to have psych doctors yelling at me for "playing games with the mental health system." I was certainly not playing games with the mental health system. I was so happy to lose the BPD diagnosis. I feel bad for anyone diagnosed with it whether they are Autistic or not.
The more severe symptoms in girls in adolescence may be linked to the a more social model, that it is the neurotypical girls who are changing, and therefor the social interactions become more fraught and difficult for the autistic girls. As neurotypical girls go into puberty and adolescence, they often become more conformist in their dress and manner, they are obsessed with their place in the pecking order, and begin to display behaviours such as bullying and exclusion of others. These behaviours 'leave behind' the autistic girls who aren't interested in these things. Autistic girls are front in line to be subject to bullying and exclusion, raising their anxiety levels and therefor other autistic 'symptoms'. Even amongst neurotypical adolescents who don't behave in this way, the sudden interest in sex and other social things may leave autistic peers behind, leading to stress and loneliness.
I'm male and middle aged and just recently diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder by a specialist. From my perspective, scientists and psychologists need to stop trying "cure" autism and recognize , accept and support it as a difference similar to other phenotypical differences between people like height or skin color, intelectual capacity, or sexuality. Post diagnosis I realed that ALL of the difficulties associated with my autistic nuerology were caused by external events and circumstances, and not understanding how they interact with me phyisologically to create the shame, stress, confusion and anxiety that was the center of my emotional experience of the world. All of it was inflicted on me starting in childhood, and continued non-stop whenever I attempted to interact with groups of people. I'm fine one on one because I can track a single person cognitively. I'm also good as a leader (I was an architect and a college professor for many years) but that always brought extreme stress and eventually, life and career meltdowns. I have an extremely high IQ and am gifted when it comes to music and art, but I have severe deficits when it comes to social interaction (I cannot sense social cues in large groups and am verbose / pedantic) and with language (my spelling is a nightmare - I'm deliberately not using spell check now to stop masking it on social media) as well as math (I cannot add / subtract / multiply or divide easily in my head like a typical 4th grader, and I only got through algebra and trig and physics in college because of sheer force of will and the development of pocket calculators)
One of the most difficult features of my particular maifestation of autism / nuerodiversity is my high IQ. It was identified in the early 70s when I first attended public school and had behavioral difficulties because of my sensory issues with loud crowded spaces (first grade classroom) and acted out by standing up on my desk and screaming "SHUT THE F_____ UP!!!" over and over and over. I'm serious - that's what I did because it actaully HURT to be forced to sit still and be quiet in that enviroment. So I was sent to the principals office repeatedly. They thought I was "hyperactive" but testing revealed a "gifted" level IQ. That meant that for the rest of my life, I was seen as "privledged" rather than "disabled" and in need of support and accomodation. When I failed to learn to read in first grade or had difficulties with math or social interactions later, it was because I was "lazy" "didn't apply myself" or was "angry" "insensitive" or a "geek". My intellegence and verbosity tend to either intimidate or make nuerotypical people jealous and resentful - especially in workplaces, where they routinely undermined my efforts to improve productivity - covertly and sometimes even collectively. I was bullied relentlessly throughout my life. My forthright communication style and lack of sensitivity and awareness of nuerotypical social sensitivities and norms doomed me. I'm basically unemployable now despite my professional degree, architect's lisence, and teaching skills. I'm socially isolated, which I don't like but have learned to cope with. I'm also poor now, by choice, and live within my means aboard a small boat I own and survive on a small teaching pension, and make a little money as a solo muscian. ...and I'm the happiest I've ever been, because I'm finally free to pursue my special interests and passions full-time. I'm not forced to interact all day with hostile nuerotypical people who I don't understand, and who don't understand, much less accept me. Most importantly, I'm not bitter or angry anymore. My autism diagnosis finally unified everything, allowing me to see myself and my experience of the world and behavior within the context of a nuerotypical society as the root of my difficulties. They are not the result of any sort of moral failure on my part - or of nuerotypical people. For the most part. I'm certainly no angel and have character flaws like anyone else. I've also encountered my fair share of evil, manipulative, mean, bullying, exploitive people. But I now realize that most of the people who did me harm didn't intend to. I also realize now I've caused others pain unintentionally. This was as a result of cluelessness, fear, anger, or some sort of emotional blindness or meltdown I had no control over due to my nuerology. Now I'm trying to figure out how to move forward, make amends where warrented, and interact positively with the world with a new understanding of my limitations, and those of neurotypical people when dealing with me. It can't be any easier for them than it is for me - except that they have a lot more people like themselves for support, and so they rule world. Whichis as it should be if you think about it. Hopefully with more recognition and understanding of autism will come greater tolerance, accomodation and inclusion and acceptance between nuerodiverse people.
Female protective effect = females are better at masking their symptoms due to the larger communication center in their brain when compared with boys, so they never get diagnosed or they get diagnosed late in life.
I think that it is essential for women and girls to communicate. That is the reason that there are less women and girls in the category of autism. Thanks 👍.
There are not fewer girls with autism, it’s simply harder to tell if a girl has autism because autistic girls (like you said) are different from autistic boys and have greater communication skills.
Recently at age 33 I was diagnosed with ASD, Chronic Anxiety, OCD, ADD, and PTSD. I have lived my whole life ignored or mocked by medical personnel due to my mother's and my own beliefs on me having ASD. For the first time in my life, I make sense to myself. My 11 year old son was diagnosed with ASD at age 5 (PDDNOS prior to that because he carries his autism the way females do). Now I am on the fence about having my 8 year old daughter evaluated. I don't want her mocked the way I was. So she may go unevaluated and just teach her the coping mechanisms I have learned instead. There are so many more like me that have had to choose consciously to refuse evaluations for our children in order to protect them from the hell we went through. I really hope my local Neuropsychologists and therapists start joining in current research. the outdated books are so damaging to us.
I tend to think the truth is empowering. There are much, much better ideas and frameworks about autistic identity now and self-understanding is one of the most powerful tools we can possess. I only fully understood my autism from my 40s and how much of my life and struggles were underpinned by not just being autistic, but being autistic and not knowing I was. A lot of the coping mechanisms we use - the masking or camouflaging - come at enormous cost to ourselves. Many women have found greater peace and mental health by reducing their masking and being more authentic to their natural behaviour. Ditch the out-dated books with all the framing of disorder, disease, suffering etc and just read those that are accepting and empowering.
I agree with Linden! There’s now more knowledge and supportive groups about autism and especially women on the spectrum. Knowledge is power and internalizing the neurodiversity can be counter productive. Another UA-cam video (panel of 5 autistic women) share their experiences; notably a mother who tells her children the empowering behaviors of her children rather than making it seem like a disability. I do feel heavily impacted with the outdated information and social projections of that.
Unusual social development emerges early in puberty. Autistic children are less aware of social stimuli, smile and gaze at people less often, and use their own name less often. Autistic toddlers deviate from social norms in a variety of ways, including making less eye contact and taking less turns. Thank you so much for putting this together!
thank you for giving a mention to non-binary and gender non-conforming identities. enjoyed this video, thank you for doing this research Dr. Wu Nordhal
I was diagnosed with ASD a couple years back (when I was around 35-36). My doctors gave up on me, and literally dropped me off at Kaiser Oakland Building lying telling me I had an appointment and driving off. When I called La Chiem office, everyone had “gone home early”. I really need help somewhere but I can’t find a place to help me.
I stopped masking/camouflaging, it costs so much energy and it has no use. No matter what I do there is always something wrong with me. Last on was my height... how on earth can I grow smaller?
I noticed that there is a general stereotype that girls with autism are social chameleons and boys with autism are what you see is what you get. I feel like the odd woman out, I'm a girly girl (or at least as girly as a girl with pronounced symptoms of autism can be) and people can tell right away.
Its good that autism gets more attention nowadays but one drawback is that people presume that if you have asperger/autistic traits is that you have some superpower. When your superpower is getting things messed up, people get dissapointed🙄
I read an article that said girls/women with autism are difficult to spot because their social activities behave similar to a typical boys/men of the age group. Is that saying that the autistic women experiences bigendered brains? Can a hemisphere experience gender/sex?
Thanks. I would love to see a video like this on women too. Also, it would be cool if each level of autism in females was studied separately, but I don't know if you have enough females for that. Also, I read a lot of autistic females can't tell what their gender is, or in between, or transgender. So, I don't know if you would study all the ones that look female except the transgender ones. I would think that many of them would be left out, since they can't tell what gender they are, or they think they are in between. You could also split them up like you said you could in the video, studying the ones that think they are female together and, the other ones separately. I'm happy I got to see that you reported that girls don't really have repetitive and restricted behaviors like boys. Since that is part of the diagnostic criteria. Online asperger's tests say I have that, the description of ASD Level 1 doesn't fit me completely since I did better than non autistic people on a repetitive behavior test. I don't think I have any repetitive behaviors. Autism Canada Screening Test said I got 38 and 30 to 50 is high risk it said. I have aphantasia which is no mind's eye , also called no visual imagination. I did an online alexithymia test a couple of times and every time it said I have alexithymia, I was in the range but not at the far end. Also, I did a Camouflage Test and got 100. I did better than the average for autistic men, women and non binary. I scored closest to neurotypical men, their score was 97 and I got 100. The average for neurotypical women was 91. I can recognize faces, their is a condition that might co occur with aphantasia where someone cannot recognize faces. I can't public speak. Also, I can't talk continuously on video for UA-cam. I put clips of a few seconds together to make videos. It's because I say wrong words or I stutter. I have to take clips 2 or 3 times a lot.
"Psychopathology". Judgement. Behavior. I am a 73 yo female who has had depression and anxiety since puberty.. Now I am self-diagnosing with autism. I took four online tests. I am looking for further assessment. Most youtube vids are about young adult women. I have had a lifetime of masking, as well as suffering, and the vids are not very relevant for me. Can anyone direct me to videos of old women with autism?
There's this UA-camr, "Purple Ella", I think she got diagnosed around age 46, I can't remember. She's not as old, but she's older than a lot of the younger Aspien women youtubers that I usually come across edit: she was diagnosed at age 36 after her child got diagnosed she is 43 now i think
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highly intelligent autistic females have highly acute perception. So whatever is missing in terms of traditional social perception can be "emulated" through cognitive effort. this may be due to evolutionary needs of women to be perceptive of the body language of others for defensive purposes, and there is also the nuture side of women having their behavior being much more socially regulated
Wow yes Tugger, I just got called out for something and realized, wow if I were a man I wouldn’t be chastised for this..it would be more acceptable that I were just forgetful, which I am. Seems it can be an irritating quality to all but it comes across as much more endearing when displayed by a man and a major character fault in a woman who seem expected to be nurturing enough to not be forgetful
Life is hard no matter what. It's the human condition. Being male comes with ceratin culturally determined obligations, expectations, and responsibilities. The same goes for females. There is some overlapin modern Western societies, not much in tradional cultures. Specilization by gender was an adpative response to evolutionary pressures. Some of it's arbitrary, but not much. The thing is, most developed cultures revolve around large cities and beuracracies mediated by information technology. The enviroment and our knowlege base has changed faster than our culture, and that's created problems and confusion and stress for both genders.
Now, add in autism! A relatively rare, 1:50 sort of thing that's both obvious and yet difficult to diagnose. Males and females both tend to mask in order to fit in to social roles and hierarchies - at great emotional, cognitive, and even psysiological cost. Becuase our social roles are different, males and females on the spectrum face different challenges. Males and females tend to differ from an emotional standpoint anyway.
I'm starting to think of my autism as the nuerological bedrock of my conciousness. Conciousness is made up of sensory perception and physiological and emotional resposes to them. This gives rise to the inner voice - the narrator / calculator we experience as the self. The rational inner voice uses emotion, memory, and sensory data to create reality as it expereinces it. This is what we experience as conciousness.
Now I think it's safe to say everyone experiences the world in a unique way. In order to function socially, we must build and share a consensus about reality to extent. The more different your experience is from average, the less likely you are to find others with enough experiential overlap or common conciousness ground to interact constructively or durably.
Autism reflects a different reality. It's just as valid a reality, it's just that it's sensory and cognitive neurological foundations are more highly pitched and tuned. Like a Stratvarius violin we are rare specialized instruments that require more care than more common specilized instruments like hammers. We play a different in the evoltionary story of humans. Hammers are critical to civilization. So is art and music. Trying to play Beethoven on a hammer is a bad idea. Traying to use a violin to nail a house together isn't gonna end well for the violin.
That's what it's like for a person with autism to be forced or to force themselves to be nuerotypical or to have to work at something they are not suited for.
You won't hurt a hammer trying to play it like a violin. You will destroy a violin if you try to use it like a hammer.
My brother and I (I’m female) both have ASD, and I’ve really thought a lot about our differences because he was diagnosed when he was a teenager, and I was diagnosed in my late 20s. When it comes to being social, my brother has a much harder time than I do. While I prefer to be left alone all the time, society dictates that women be friendly and smile when someone speaks to you. It makes me uncomfortable, but it’s better than being berated or bullied for not holding up those stupid standards. Unfortunately, my panic attacks became more severe because of forced socializationIf he reacts negatively to being touched, it’s ok. But if I react negatively, I’m being a bitch and rude. When I don’t speak to people for a period of time, people will bother me, yell at me, or whatever. When my brother doesn’t speak to people for a certain amount of time, no one questions it at all. He will go a week at a time usually, whereas someone will bother me if I even just sleep in. It’s incredibly frustrating. Contrary to preferring isolation, I also feel the need to for acceptance, but my brother just doesn’t care. This is a hard balance because I generally just dislike people, but I also don’t want to be hated. I’m not sure if this is due to my more prominent anxiety, or gender roles, or what; but it is very difficult. I’m mysophobic, but my brother is not. Being sanitary is something that helps me feel calm if I haven’t been able to react strongly (in the presence of others) to something that has bothered me. When I was younger, I would physically hurt myself by forcing my legs and arms into painful positions if something was upsetting. My brother was allowed to be more violent by punching and kicking walls. “Girls don’t do that!” So I think gender standards have a large impact on females masking more than males, and thus leading to being underdiagnosed.
Some good things that have come about from our differences is that me having ADHD as well as ASD (he is not diagnosed with ADHD) results in me being able to notice and remember nearly everything that happens. I’m not entirely sure how this happens as I don’t even realize that my mind is notating everything; but when someone needs to know what someone did or said, regardless of when, I automatically know. I’m more sensitive with the 5 senses, but I actually like being able to notice sounds or smells that other people do not (however, it’s not fun when no one believes me lol)
I do want to add that I don’t like referring to my ASD as a disability. Even though it can be crippling in circumstances, it can also be wildly beautiful. I have a near perfect echoic memory, and a pretty good eidetic memory. My echoic memory allows me to play any instrument by ear and mimic accents and languages with extraordinary accuracy. I’m also amazing with animals. They always love and respect me, and I can understand them almost 100% of the time, I prefer to just think of myself as different.
the need to be accepted might go hand in hand with your boundaries and needs not being respected. It is what it is, but it's good to know if you feel the need to change the pattern.
I'm male and middle aged and just recently diagnosed. I agree with everything you say here. Scientists and psychologists need to stop trying "cure" autism and recognize , accept and support it as a difference similar to other penotypical differences between people like height or skin color, intelectual capacity, or sexuality. Post diagnosis I realed that ALL of the difficulties associated with my autistic nuerology were caused by external events and circumstances, and not understanding how they interact with me phisologically to create the shame, stress and anxiety that was the center of my cognitive experience of the world. All of it was inflicted on me starting in childhood, and continued non-stop whenever I attempted to interact with groups of people. I'm fine one on one because I can track a single person cognitively. I'm also good as a leader (I was an architect and a college professor for many years) but that always brought extreme stress and eventually, life and career meltdowns. I have an extremely high IQ and am gifted when it comes to music and art, but I have severe deficits when it comes to social interaction (I cannot sense social cues in large groups and am verbose / pedantic) and with language (my spelling is a nightmare) as well as math (I cannot add / subtract / multiply or divide easily in my head like a typical 4th grader, and I only got through algebra and trig and physics in college because of sheer force of will and the development of pocket calculators)
One of the most difficult features of my autism / nuerodiversity is my high IQ. It was identified in the early 70s when I first attended public school and had behavioral difficulties because of my sensory issues with loud crowded spaces (first grade classroom) and acted out by standing up on my desk and screaming "SHUT THE F_____ UP!!!" over and over and over. I'm serious - that's what I did because it actaully HURT to be forced to sit still in that enviroment. So I was sent to the principals office repeatedly. They thought I was "hyperactive" but testing revealed a "gifted" level IQ. That meant that for the rest of my life, I was seen as "privledged" rather than "disabled". When I failed to learn to read or had difficulties with math or social interactions, it was because I was "lazy" "didn't apply myself" or was "angry" or a "geek". My intellegence and verbosity tend to either intimidate or make nuerotypical people jealous and resentful - especially in workplaces, where they routinely undermined my efforts to improve productivity - covertly and sometimes even collectively. My forthright communication style and lack of sensitivity and awareness of nuerotypical social sensitivities and norms doomed me. I'm basically unemployable despite my professional degree, architect's lisence, and teaching skills. I'm socially isolated, which I don't like but have learned to cope with. I'm also poor now, but by choice, and live within my means on a small teaching pension, and make a little money as a solo muscian.
...and I'm the happiest I've ever been, because I'm finally free to pursue my special interests and passions full-time. I'm not forced to interact all day with hostile nuerotypical people I don't understand, and who don't understand who I am, much less accept me. Most importantly, I'm not bitter or angry anymore. My autism diagnosis finally unified everything, allowing me to see myself and behavior within the context of a nuerotypical world as the root of my difficulties. They are not the result of any sort of moral failure on my part or of nuerotypical people. For the most part. I'm certainly no angel and have character flaws like anyone else. I've also encountered my fair share of evil, manipulative, mean, bullying, exploitive people - starting with my own mother. But most of the people who did me harm didn't intend to. All of the harm I've done to others was unintentional - the result of cluelessness, fear, anger, or some sort of emotional blindness or meltdown I had no control over due to my nuerology. Now I'm trying to figure out how to move forward and interact positively with the world with a new understanding of my limitations, and those of neurotypical people when dealing with me. It can't be any easier for them than it is for me - except that they have a lot more people like themselves for support, and so they rule world. Which makes perfect sense if you think about it.
I relate a lot to your situation. I am also a female with autism and my brother has it too. Except I haven't been diagnosed yet. I understand how you feel about seeming to have more pressure on you.
Women are also under-diagnosed with ADHD because we tend to display more of the inattentive features versus the hyperactive features that initially concern parents and teachers. I hope one day women can be included more in studies to understand how illness affects us differently from men, and how we may respond differently to treatments.
Even from random studies conducted by various universities boys tend to disproportionately be on the spectrum.
Yes! I was diagnosed with ADHD at 7 it just showed differently. it’s pretty severe even now at 25. But my family stopped letting me take medication. It honestly was such a huge help for me in a lot of aspects of my life. But after a while my father just said I’m fine and I don’t need medication or help. Even now when speaking to my family about it they still say ehh your fine you don’t need it.
The one thing we autistic females have in common more than anything else is a (mis)diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder. The amount of girls who are denied help because of a misdiagnosed with BPD is astronomical, not to mention extremely damaging to the autistic victim. It's so common, in fact, that I think BPD should only be an official diagnose if autism has also been tested for. I am a huge advocate for this (as I have been through it) and my heart breaks every time a new autistic girl talks about having to ask their mental healthcare professionals for an autism test when most girls have no idea that's even a thing.
True. Was diagnosed as a BPD for 4 years been told by doctors that I was manipulative, using self harm behaviors and eating disorders to spite others in order to get what I want.
I guess the problem is, there are a bunch of similar symptoms if you care not to have a closer look because if you follow DSM criteria, a bunch of misdiagnosis will occur:
1) Strained social relationships - BPD present in more vicious cycles
2) Emotional dysregulation - BPD more of identity emptiness, Autism more of frustration, anger
3) Self harm behaviors - BPD stronger tendencies, but Autism stimming like head banging (I do that) and I used eating disorder to stim as well. Another similarity
4) Generalized personality disorder - lack of connection to norms where Autism, brain just wired differently
5) Asocial behaviors for whatever reason
But being labeled a BPD and a manipulative and bad person did not do good to me. I am now better because I stopped going to see psychiatrists regularly. I just quit doing the vicious cycles of me executive dysfunctioning and going to appointments late and them saying you're lazy and if you want to prove you are not, come on time - but I can't, and it is not laziness.
6) This is just for me. I was observed to have attention deficit problems for a year and I told the psychiatrists my attention is so bad sometimes I just don't know where I am and what I'm doing. I feel disconnected. And I was told that was not Attention Deficit, but severe dissociative episodes.
As a person who was also diagnosed with Major Depression , Anxiety Disorders with social phobia, complex trauma, and in remission from an OCD diagnosis I never believed was a proper diagnosis, it was not easy.
And it still is not easy now. Even though right now I am finally told I have ADD and ASD and was misdiagnosed with BPD for 4 years. In the 4 years I read all about BPD and tried to fix myself from my diagnosis, but I just got worse.
My doctors were happy treating a bunch of symptoms without digging the root cause, I wasn't. Doctor when they see many patients are actually the one who gets lazy, you'd think a misdiagnosis would not mean much, but after 16 years being a mental health consumer and so heavily medicated that I feel like a drug addict, I wish the 16 years did not happen.
I was first brought to the clinic age 11 for head banging, but I was not diagnosed with anything except for stress. I'd have hoped doctors would have been more careful. Because the reality was that then - I did not know how to tell people I was stressed other than head banging and now, I still do not know how to tell doctors that "I think I am Autistic"
The problem is until this week, I never knew how to explain my difference, or communicate to doctors that all they are seeing is my surface behavior, not my hidden self. I am selectively mute. I can be hyper self aware now, and when I go to the consultation room, anxiety can cause me to forget everything. With unforgiving doctors, this just is a bad vicious cycle that goes on for decades without reaching a solution, and both myself and doctors get frustrated with a chronic case that could have been solved if we just gave each other some more TIME to understand client, instead of their surface behavior.
@Yexuan Yuan
Thank you so much for sharing your story, I appreciate it more than I can express and it touched my heart. Your story is exactly why I am such a huge advocate for autistic women getting the correct diagnoses and the mental health help we desperately need instead of being labeled as Borderline which makes us out to be mental terrorists with self-serving motivations. Time and time again, I've heard stories like yours of women who have spent significant portions of their lives thinking they were terrible people who just couldn't stop these "borderline cycles" and making everyone around them miserable when in actuality they were the victims of a biased system who would rather misdiagnose female autists than actually help them. It also does not help in the slightest that we autistic girls tend to have histories of being abused and/or significant mistreatment in the formative years because we are the perfect targets since we have a hard time not showing badies that bad things get to us. Our parents don't understand, our peers don't understand, we don't even understand, but predators can pick up on this in us. It is truly a tragedy, and I am so very sorry this messed up system has failed you as well.
Unfortunately because of our stronger masking abilities, most of us aren't diagnosed until our late twenties when we start having children who usually turn out autistic. I have heard FAR too many stories though of women who have asked their mental health professionals about autism only to be told "only boys can be autistic," which honestly is leading me to believe our current system is more comfortable thinking women WANT to be like this and boys don't. I am by no means a feminist but this is one area where we are most definitely actively harming more and more girls every single day that we don't take them seriously when they say they do not know what is wrong. No one else should ever have to go through what you have gone through, and it pains me so greatly that you are not alone, though I am honoured to be among such good company in this struggle.
I do not yet know exactly what we can do, and I can't say much that things really get better. I have been told by every single doctor in any and every field that I am autistic but there is no point in getting an official diagnosis because it's not like it will do anything. In fact, the only reason I am now even getting the official diagnosis is because I had significant head trauma back in September 2019 that I never sought out medical help for (as it was an issue of domestic violence and I had zero trust in anything having to do with the medical industry in my head because of how I've always been treated as a female with autism) and am JUST NOW being taken seriously over it as my cognitive function has declined dramatically just over the course of this year. But sharing our stories with each other and reaching out, even if it's just in UA-cam comments, to let each other know we're not alone is so incredibly powerful.
I am sorry for the long reply. I hope you have a happy and healthy 2022. Together, we've got this. Stay safe and much love!
I was misdiagnosed as having Borderline Personality Disorder. It was very bad for my mental health to have psych doctors yelling at me for "playing games with the mental health system." I was certainly not playing games with the mental health system. I was so happy to lose the BPD diagnosis. I feel bad for anyone diagnosed with it whether they are Autistic or not.
The more severe symptoms in girls in adolescence may be linked to the a more social model, that it is the neurotypical girls who are changing, and therefor the social interactions become more fraught and difficult for the autistic girls. As neurotypical girls go into puberty and adolescence, they often become more conformist in their dress and manner, they are obsessed with their place in the pecking order, and begin to display behaviours such as bullying and exclusion of others. These behaviours 'leave behind' the autistic girls who aren't interested in these things. Autistic girls are front in line to be subject to bullying and exclusion, raising their anxiety levels and therefor other autistic 'symptoms'. Even amongst neurotypical adolescents who don't behave in this way, the sudden interest in sex and other social things may leave autistic peers behind, leading to stress and loneliness.
I'm male and middle aged and just recently diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder by a specialist. From my perspective, scientists and psychologists need to stop trying "cure" autism and recognize , accept and support it as a difference similar to other phenotypical differences between people like height or skin color, intelectual capacity, or sexuality. Post diagnosis I realed that ALL of the difficulties associated with my autistic nuerology were caused by external events and circumstances, and not understanding how they interact with me phyisologically to create the shame, stress, confusion and anxiety that was the center of my emotional experience of the world. All of it was inflicted on me starting in childhood, and continued non-stop whenever I attempted to interact with groups of people. I'm fine one on one because I can track a single person cognitively. I'm also good as a leader (I was an architect and a college professor for many years) but that always brought extreme stress and eventually, life and career meltdowns. I have an extremely high IQ and am gifted when it comes to music and art, but I have severe deficits when it comes to social interaction (I cannot sense social cues in large groups and am verbose / pedantic) and with language (my spelling is a nightmare - I'm deliberately not using spell check now to stop masking it on social media) as well as math (I cannot add / subtract / multiply or divide easily in my head like a typical 4th grader, and I only got through algebra and trig and physics in college because of sheer force of will and the development of pocket calculators)
One of the most difficult features of my particular maifestation of autism / nuerodiversity is my high IQ. It was identified in the early 70s when I first attended public school and had behavioral difficulties because of my sensory issues with loud crowded spaces (first grade classroom) and acted out by standing up on my desk and screaming "SHUT THE F_____ UP!!!" over and over and over. I'm serious - that's what I did because it actaully HURT to be forced to sit still and be quiet in that enviroment. So I was sent to the principals office repeatedly. They thought I was "hyperactive" but testing revealed a "gifted" level IQ. That meant that for the rest of my life, I was seen as "privledged" rather than "disabled" and in need of support and accomodation. When I failed to learn to read in first grade or had difficulties with math or social interactions later, it was because I was "lazy" "didn't apply myself" or was "angry" "insensitive" or a "geek". My intellegence and verbosity tend to either intimidate or make nuerotypical people jealous and resentful - especially in workplaces, where they routinely undermined my efforts to improve productivity - covertly and sometimes even collectively. I was bullied relentlessly throughout my life. My forthright communication style and lack of sensitivity and awareness of nuerotypical social sensitivities and norms doomed me. I'm basically unemployable now despite my professional degree, architect's lisence, and teaching skills. I'm socially isolated, which I don't like but have learned to cope with. I'm also poor now, by choice, and live within my means aboard a small boat I own and survive on a small teaching pension, and make a little money as a solo muscian.
...and I'm the happiest I've ever been, because I'm finally free to pursue my special interests and passions full-time. I'm not forced to interact all day with hostile nuerotypical people who I don't understand, and who don't understand, much less accept me. Most importantly, I'm not bitter or angry anymore. My autism diagnosis finally unified everything, allowing me to see myself and my experience of the world and behavior within the context of a nuerotypical society as the root of my difficulties. They are not the result of any sort of moral failure on my part - or of nuerotypical people. For the most part.
I'm certainly no angel and have character flaws like anyone else. I've also encountered my fair share of evil, manipulative, mean, bullying, exploitive people. But I now realize that most of the people who did me harm didn't intend to. I also realize now I've caused others pain unintentionally. This was as a result of cluelessness, fear, anger, or some sort of emotional blindness or meltdown I had no control over due to my nuerology. Now I'm trying to figure out how to move forward, make amends where warrented, and interact positively with the world with a new understanding of my limitations, and those of neurotypical people when dealing with me. It can't be any easier for them than it is for me - except that they have a lot more people like themselves for support, and so they rule world. Whichis as it should be if you think about it. Hopefully with more recognition and understanding of autism will come greater tolerance, accomodation and inclusion and acceptance between nuerodiverse people.
Female protective effect = females are better at masking their symptoms due to the larger communication center in their brain when compared with boys, so they never get diagnosed or they get diagnosed late in life.
I think that it is essential for women and girls to communicate. That is the reason that there are less women and girls in the category of autism. Thanks 👍.
There are not fewer girls with autism, it’s simply harder to tell if a girl has autism because autistic girls (like you said) are different from autistic boys and have greater communication skills.
Recently at age 33 I was diagnosed with ASD, Chronic Anxiety, OCD, ADD, and PTSD. I have lived my whole life ignored or mocked by medical personnel due to my mother's and my own beliefs on me having ASD. For the first time in my life, I make sense to myself. My 11 year old son was diagnosed with ASD at age 5 (PDDNOS prior to that because he carries his autism the way females do). Now I am on the fence about having my 8 year old daughter evaluated. I don't want her mocked the way I was. So she may go unevaluated and just teach her the coping mechanisms I have learned instead. There are so many more like me that have had to choose consciously to refuse evaluations for our children in order to protect them from the hell we went through. I really hope my local Neuropsychologists and therapists start joining in current research. the outdated books are so damaging to us.
I tend to think the truth is empowering. There are much, much better ideas and frameworks about autistic identity now and self-understanding is one of the most powerful tools we can possess. I only fully understood my autism from my 40s and how much of my life and struggles were underpinned by not just being autistic, but being autistic and not knowing I was.
A lot of the coping mechanisms we use - the masking or camouflaging - come at enormous cost to ourselves. Many women have found greater peace and mental health by reducing their masking and being more authentic to their natural behaviour.
Ditch the out-dated books with all the framing of disorder, disease, suffering etc and just read those that are accepting and empowering.
I agree with Linden! There’s now more knowledge and supportive groups about autism and especially women on the spectrum. Knowledge is power and internalizing the neurodiversity can be counter productive. Another UA-cam video (panel of 5 autistic women) share their experiences; notably a mother who tells her children the empowering behaviors of her children rather than making it seem like a disability. I do feel heavily impacted with the outdated information and social projections of that.
Unusual social development emerges early in puberty. Autistic children are less aware of social stimuli, smile and gaze at people less often, and use their own name less often. Autistic toddlers deviate from social norms in a variety of ways, including making less eye contact and taking less turns. Thank you so much for putting this together!
thank you for giving a mention to non-binary and gender non-conforming identities. enjoyed this video, thank you for doing this research Dr. Wu Nordhal
Thanks from Colombia. Luis Fernando Medina Leguízamo.
whaaat lol... girls are often diagnosed in their 30s or 40s !!! not 7.. ive never heard that in my life !
I was diagnosed with ASD a couple years back (when I was around 35-36). My doctors gave up on me, and literally dropped me off at Kaiser Oakland Building lying telling me I had an appointment and driving off. When I called La Chiem office, everyone had “gone home early”.
I really need help somewhere but I can’t find a place to help me.
I stopped masking/camouflaging, it costs so much energy and it has no use. No matter what I do there is always something wrong with me. Last on was my height... how on earth can I grow smaller?
I noticed that there is a general stereotype that girls with autism are social chameleons and boys with autism are what you see is what you get. I feel like the odd woman out, I'm a girly girl (or at least as girly as a girl with pronounced symptoms of autism can be) and people can tell right away.
That just means you aren’t masking and based on her research is a good thing for your overall psychological health ✨
Its good that autism gets more attention nowadays but one drawback is that people presume that if you have asperger/autistic traits is that you have some superpower. When your superpower is getting things messed up, people get dissapointed🙄
The entertainment portrayal of that may play a big part on people's assumptions.
I read an article that said girls/women with autism are difficult to spot because their social activities behave similar to a typical boys/men of the age group. Is that saying that the autistic women experiences bigendered brains? Can a hemisphere experience gender/sex?
There is the same though with dyslexia more boys but that has changed.
Thanks. I would love to see a video like this on women too. Also, it would be cool if each level of autism in females was studied separately, but I don't know if you have enough females for that. Also, I read a lot of autistic females can't tell what their gender is, or in between, or transgender. So, I don't know if you would study all the ones that look female except the transgender ones. I would think that many of them would be left out, since they can't tell what gender they are, or they think they are in between. You could also split them up like you said you could in the video, studying the ones that think they are female together and, the other ones separately.
I'm happy I got to see that you reported that girls don't really have repetitive and restricted behaviors like boys. Since that is part of the diagnostic criteria.
Online asperger's tests say I have that, the description of ASD Level 1 doesn't fit me completely since
I did better than non autistic people on a repetitive behavior test. I don't think I have any repetitive behaviors. Autism Canada Screening Test said I got 38 and 30 to 50 is high risk it said. I have aphantasia which is no mind's eye , also called no visual imagination. I did an online alexithymia test a couple of times and every time it said I have alexithymia, I was in the range but not at the far end. Also, I did a Camouflage Test and got 100. I did better than the average for autistic men, women and non binary. I scored closest to neurotypical men, their score was 97 and I got 100. The average for neurotypical women was 91. I can recognize faces, their is a condition that might co occur with aphantasia where someone cannot recognize faces. I can't public speak. Also, I can't talk continuously on video for UA-cam. I put clips of a few seconds together to make videos. It's because I say wrong words or I stutter. I have to take clips 2 or 3 times a lot.
Your daughter's drawing was a good illustration of the curve!
"Psychopathology".
Judgement.
Behavior.
I am a 73 yo female who has had depression and anxiety since puberty.. Now I am self-diagnosing with autism. I took four online tests.
I am looking for further assessment. Most youtube vids are about young adult women.
I have had a lifetime of masking, as well as suffering, and the vids are not very relevant for me.
Can anyone direct me to videos of old women with autism?
You'd probably love Sarah Hendrickx. She's autistic and a clinician. She has a number of presentations on UA-cam, just search for her name.
There's this UA-camr, "Purple Ella", I think she got diagnosed around age 46, I can't remember.
She's not as old, but she's older than a lot of the younger Aspien women youtubers that I usually come across
edit:
she was diagnosed at age 36 after her child got diagnosed
she is 43 now i think
Check out the channel "Autism from the inside". There are quite a number of videos featuring older autistic people (past their fifties)
I'm interested in the comorbidity in girls with ASD and OCD
😊🎉😊
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