This is Awesome overtones (harmonics) are what you get when multiply the frequency by any whole number. 2x a frequency is an octave up 3x is oct + 5th above 4x is two octaves up ... undertones (sub harminics) are what get when you devide a frequency by whole numbers 1/2 a frequency is an octave down 1/3 is oct + 5th below (which is the same 4th note of the scale transposed down) 1/4 is two octaves down ... It's always whole number ratios . If you took the wave form erased (gated out) EVERY OTHER peak and valley, it would move the speaker HALF as fast, which is one octave down. if the gate was closed even more of the time and it only let out every 3RD peak and valley, the voltage that got through would be 1/3 the frequency, which is one octave plus a 5th lower. 1/4 the frequency is two octaves down.. and so on its only whole numbers because even if the gate is open the original wave is a fixed pitch so the peaks and valleys are in the same place. there is voltage to the speaker only when the gate open AND the wave is at a peak or valley. Here is the more of the undertone series 1/2x One octave down 1/3x 1oct +5th down (4th) 1/4x Two octaves down 1/5x 2oct + M3rd down (m6th*) 1/6x 2oct + 5th down (4th) 1/7x 2oct + m7th down (2nd) 1/8x Three octaves down etc... *a hair sharp M=major m=minor (what it transposes to relative to the root note) the overtone series: 2x octave 3x octave plus 5th 4x 2 octaves 5x 2oct +M3 6x 2oct +5th 7x 2oct +m7 8x 3octaves 9x 3oct+ M2 10x 3oct+ M3 11x 3oct+#4 etc.. Contrary to what everyone says Subharmonics DO Appear in nature! I mean they must right?? they're just harder to create or notice acoustically I guess. On an electric guitar with lots of overdrive, Ive noticed tones coming out that are lower than what is technically being played because of the interference between playing two notes at the same time. ( the pulsing you hear when two notes are *almost in tune) two high notes on neighboring strings and carefully bend the lower note up. As i bent the notes closer together the resultant note gets lower (a clean sweep though all tje frequencies, not only the subharmonic series, because im changing the pitch of one of the notes, not just multiplying or dividing a fixed pitch) until it sounds like a tempo, not a note anymore. Because the sub notes are so low its easier to hear playing up high on two highest pitch strings. Also with overdrive a perfect 4th sounds like a perfect fifth where the high note is transposed an octave down. If you want to hear what the undertone series is to the overtone series in the realm of harmony check out "negative harmony" ua-cam.com/video/uBKQIgpImRM/v-deo.html
I don't know about the Neutron but there are a lot of ADSR circuits that use a 555 timer in monostable mode to provide the envelope. The 555 Wikipedia page says "the time span between any two triggering pulses must be greater than the RC time constant", and in this case the RC time constant is some function of the knob values. If so then you're ending up with a triangle-ish shape sub-oscillator, perfectly in phase but divided in frequency until the time between a whole number of rising input edges exceeds the specific RC time constant value.
Thank you for the input! I do also think the envelope settings are causing the retrigger to happen at n wavecycles of the oscillator that triggers it, but through an oscilloscope the waveform starts as a saw wave, and then adds equally partitioned n 'steps' based on the nth subharmonic. I wonder why that is? I didn't even know you could make an envelope from a 555 chip, but I went searching online and found some neat schematics which are proving to be promising. Not schematics of the neutron, just an envelope generator. If the neutron did use one for it's envelopes, it would probably have something to do with the reset and discharge pins (if I had to make a guess).
This is Amazing, tried it my self, + clipped it with my UMC1820, what a BASS! after trying your way I tried to Isolate the sub frequencies of it on a C and got some nice new waveforms to use on serum ahahah
Thanks for showing how this is done. Oscillator is sending control voltage trigger to the Envelope generator so that's why the envelopes are generated in an octave relationship to the oscillator. I guess the envelope gets triggered at each moment the maximum amplitude of the oscillator is reached.
That's a really cool trick, although what you say is two octaves down is actually an octave and a fifth. The one you call a minor third at first is actually two octaves down and the one after that is two octaves plus a major third. It sounds minor in the context because it's the major third component of a minor chord (e.g. Fm if it's the C subharmonic series). This makes sense as the subharmonic series is the mirror of the harmonic series. At a guess, this happens because the Neutron envelope can't retrigger fast enough and the longer the release is the slower it is to retrigger. This kind of cool crazy stuff is why modulars are great.
Yeah, I should've used a tuner haha. The concept however is still there The retrigger thing is also what a few of the other comments have said. I think it's always neat finding out weird quirks with hardware that would never show up in a DAW
Nice. Perfect time for me since I have been looking for solutions to make some subs on my Grandmother (without using the glitchy Maths solution), so this comes in perfectly handy. Thank you!
This is very cool, thanks for sharing! I'll definitely have to experiment with this. Reminds me of the trick I found on the Volca Modular, running the oscillators through one of the function generator turns them into square waves and pwm can also be achieved with its utility module. Makes me wonder what could be done with this and attenuator 1's CV input
That is really interesting! A while back I found another weird way to produce subharmonics using OSC 1 and OSC 2 FM/PWM-ing each other. I wrote down the exact recipe somewhere, I'll see if I can record it and report back :)
I think It's FM, you're modulating the Osc with the much slower envelope. Or is it the other way around? Brilliant! I've never seen that. Gonna try it, though, for sure!
Here we're actually hearing just the envelope, which leads me to believe it isn't FM. FM would require you to change the wavelength of your oscillator, and here I'm triggering the envelope to make a type of pseudo-oscillator, changing the retrigger frequency but not the actual wavelength Thanks for the input though!
@@RickHowell but you are changing the wave length. the ADSR is essentially drawing the wave. so as the time of the envelope stages are increased you are increasing the time it takes to get from the attack stage to the release stage, and time is just frequency. now why it moves in steps like that is beyond me! any time ive used audio rate envelopes it pretty much always an unquantized frequency sweep????
Yeah, I knocked them out of place months ago after putting it in the rackbrute and realized there was no way I was going to ever be able to line those up again lmao
did you try opening and closing the gate with a square wave? and maybe the tone wave as well? i imagine it would be more effective somehow but im just guessing.
The thing is, I don't have a way of triggering a square wave in divisions of some fundamental frequency. I can retrigger the LFO and Sync OSC 2, but those will only give me some frequency greater than or equal to the fundamental. That's the reason why I'm specifically using an envelope; it has a weird hardware property where if you trigger it fast enough and make the envelope shape have a very precise setting it can skip trigger cycles at regular integer intervals, thus producing subharmonics! If you had a switch of sorts (like the Instruo tàin,) you could get powers of two subharmonic divisions (if you routed the ins and outs in series) and the result would be a square wave
I tried this myself this evening and I can get it to work but it's pretty fiddly, i.e. for any given 1 or 2 settings in the envelope, the other 2 have to be in just the right range and lots of combinations don't work at all. My theory, if you want to call it that, is that envelope 1 by default modulates the VCA so you're both listening to env1 and also the VCA is being modulated by it. So I think it's some kind of FM effect?
Yeah, the settings have to be super precise which is strange. When I get a chance I'll try it with envelope two to see if I can get the same thing. In my testing with the video, I kept the VCA open the whole time with the bias knob, so I'm hesitant on saying VCA modulation is actually causing it. Although I know you can make subharmonics with a gated VCA, so of course it's totally possible. Basically, more testing is needed haha.
@@RickHowell I tried with env2 with no results. I kept the VCA open too, but here's the funny thing - turning it down made no difference, even to zero. I might see if I can replicate it with standalone modules to see what connections are actually required.
@@RickHowell So I did some experimenting today. I tried every other envelope generator I have - a few standalone modules and the ones on the Behringer 2600. None of them exhibited this behavior at all and many of them wouldn't even make sound except with almost all the parameters down So I guess my theory now is retriggering behavior. If you pass a sin wave into the gate input, it will only be considered "on" for part of the positive phase of the sine wave, so you'll get one short pulse per VCO cycle. If the neutron doesn't retrigger in the sustain or delay phase then once you turn, say, the delay up, then by the time you get to the next pulse you'll still be in the delay phase and it won't retrigger, so then you'll only get one envelope cycle every 2 VCO cycles. It'll go like that in integer multiples. (This is just a theory. From the behavior I saw, I think my other envelopes always retrigger)
Yeah, I think I'm getting that feeling too. The shape of the envelope is causing it to retrigger after 'n' number of cycles of the oscillator that's triggering it. I also ran the envelope out into an oscilloscope and found some weird phenomenon with the waveform that I'll be reporting on later once I can figure out some more things. Tony C also commented on how the envelope might work like a RC circuit which might be causing this behavior. All in all, more formalizing to be done to make this more than conjecture, but this is some amazing progress!
This is Awesome
overtones (harmonics) are what you get when multiply the frequency by any whole number.
2x a frequency is an octave up
3x is oct + 5th above
4x is two octaves up ...
undertones (sub harminics) are what get when you devide a frequency by whole numbers
1/2 a frequency is an octave down
1/3 is oct + 5th below (which is the same 4th note of the scale transposed down)
1/4 is two octaves down ...
It's always whole number ratios .
If you took the wave form erased (gated out) EVERY OTHER peak and valley, it would move the speaker HALF as fast, which is one octave down. if the gate was closed even more of the time and it only let out every 3RD peak and valley, the voltage that got through would be 1/3 the frequency, which is one octave plus a 5th lower. 1/4 the frequency is two octaves down.. and so on
its only whole numbers because even if the gate is open the original wave is a fixed pitch so the peaks and valleys are in the same place. there is voltage to the speaker only when the gate open AND the wave is at a peak or valley.
Here is the more of the undertone series
1/2x One octave down
1/3x 1oct +5th down (4th)
1/4x Two octaves down
1/5x 2oct + M3rd down (m6th*)
1/6x 2oct + 5th down (4th)
1/7x 2oct + m7th down (2nd)
1/8x Three octaves down
etc...
*a hair sharp
M=major
m=minor
(what it transposes to relative to the root note)
the overtone series:
2x octave
3x octave plus 5th
4x 2 octaves
5x 2oct +M3
6x 2oct +5th
7x 2oct +m7
8x 3octaves
9x 3oct+ M2
10x 3oct+ M3
11x 3oct+#4
etc..
Contrary to what everyone says
Subharmonics DO Appear in nature!
I mean they must right??
they're just harder to create or notice acoustically I guess.
On an electric guitar with lots of overdrive, Ive noticed tones coming out that are lower than what is technically being played because of the interference between playing two notes at the same time. ( the pulsing you hear when two notes are *almost in tune) two high notes on neighboring strings and carefully bend the lower note up. As i bent the notes closer together the resultant note gets lower (a clean sweep though all tje frequencies, not only the subharmonic series, because im changing the pitch of one of the notes, not just multiplying or dividing a fixed pitch) until it sounds like a tempo, not a note anymore. Because the sub notes are so low its easier to hear playing up high on two highest pitch strings.
Also with overdrive a perfect 4th sounds like a perfect fifth where the high note is transposed an octave down.
If you want to hear what the undertone series is to the overtone series in the realm of harmony check out "negative harmony"
ua-cam.com/video/uBKQIgpImRM/v-deo.html
I don't know about the Neutron but there are a lot of ADSR circuits that use a 555 timer in monostable mode to provide the envelope. The 555 Wikipedia page says "the time span between any two triggering pulses must be greater than the RC time constant", and in this case the RC time constant is some function of the knob values. If so then you're ending up with a triangle-ish shape sub-oscillator, perfectly in phase but divided in frequency until the time between a whole number of rising input edges exceeds the specific RC time constant value.
Thank you for the input!
I do also think the envelope settings are causing the retrigger to happen at n wavecycles of the oscillator that triggers it, but through an oscilloscope the waveform starts as a saw wave, and then adds equally partitioned n 'steps' based on the nth subharmonic. I wonder why that is?
I didn't even know you could make an envelope from a 555 chip, but I went searching online and found some neat schematics which are proving to be promising. Not schematics of the neutron, just an envelope generator.
If the neutron did use one for it's envelopes, it would probably have something to do with the reset and discharge pins (if I had to make a guess).
Yeah, sounds like the ADSRs don't re-trigger.
I love how you improvise, and learn about the neutron throughout the video. It really demonstrates what modular synth is about.
Yeah! It always feels like I'm working in a research lab every time I sit down to make noise haha.
This is Amazing, tried it my self, + clipped it with my UMC1820, what a BASS! after trying your way I tried to Isolate the sub frequencies of it on a C and got some nice new waveforms to use on serum ahahah
Brilliant!
Thanks for showing how this is done.
Oscillator is sending control voltage trigger to the Envelope generator so that's why the envelopes are generated in an octave relationship to the oscillator.
I guess the envelope gets triggered at each moment the maximum amplitude of the oscillator is reached.
That's a really cool trick, although what you say is two octaves down is actually an octave and a fifth. The one you call a minor third at first is actually two octaves down and the one after that is two octaves plus a major third. It sounds minor in the context because it's the major third component of a minor chord (e.g. Fm if it's the C subharmonic series).
This makes sense as the subharmonic series is the mirror of the harmonic series.
At a guess, this happens because the Neutron envelope can't retrigger fast enough and the longer the release is the slower it is to retrigger. This kind of cool crazy stuff is why modulars are great.
Yeah, I should've used a tuner haha. The concept however is still there
The retrigger thing is also what a few of the other comments have said. I think it's always neat finding out weird quirks with hardware that would never show up in a DAW
Nice. Perfect time for me since I have been looking for solutions to make some subs on my Grandmother (without using the glitchy Maths solution), so this comes in perfectly handy. Thank you!
This is very cool, thanks for sharing! I'll definitely have to experiment with this. Reminds me of the trick I found on the Volca Modular, running the oscillators through one of the function generator turns them into square waves and pwm can also be achieved with its utility module. Makes me wonder what could be done with this and attenuator 1's CV input
That is really interesting! A while back I found another weird way to produce subharmonics using OSC 1 and OSC 2 FM/PWM-ing each other. I wrote down the exact recipe somewhere, I'll see if I can record it and report back :)
That's awesome! Keep me updated, haha
That’s crazy!
This is really cool
I think It's FM, you're modulating the Osc with the much slower envelope. Or is it the other way around? Brilliant! I've never seen that. Gonna try it, though, for sure!
Here we're actually hearing just the envelope, which leads me to believe it isn't FM.
FM would require you to change the wavelength of your oscillator, and here I'm triggering the envelope to make a type of pseudo-oscillator, changing the retrigger frequency but not the actual wavelength
Thanks for the input though!
@@RickHowell but you are changing the wave length. the ADSR is essentially drawing the wave. so as the time of the envelope stages are increased you are increasing the time it takes to get from the attack stage to the release stage, and time is just frequency. now why it moves in steps like that is beyond me! any time ive used audio rate envelopes it pretty much always an unquantized frequency sweep????
Lol just like my Neutron the 4 center screws are missing from constant eurorack rearranging.
Yeah, I knocked them out of place months ago after putting it in the rackbrute and realized there was no way I was going to ever be able to line those up again lmao
@@RickHowell magnets help or even little tooth picks but yeah i just leave them out from pure laziness. I even started using knurlies in the corners.
did you try opening and closing the gate with a square wave? and maybe the tone wave as well? i imagine it would be more effective somehow but im just guessing.
The thing is, I don't have a way of triggering a square wave in divisions of some fundamental frequency. I can retrigger the LFO and Sync OSC 2, but those will only give me some frequency greater than or equal to the fundamental. That's the reason why I'm specifically using an envelope; it has a weird hardware property where if you trigger it fast enough and make the envelope shape have a very precise setting it can skip trigger cycles at regular integer intervals, thus producing subharmonics!
If you had a switch of sorts (like the Instruo tàin,) you could get powers of two subharmonic divisions (if you routed the ins and outs in series) and the result would be a square wave
I tried this myself this evening and I can get it to work but it's pretty fiddly, i.e. for any given 1 or 2 settings in the envelope, the other 2 have to be in just the right range and lots of combinations don't work at all.
My theory, if you want to call it that, is that envelope 1 by default modulates the VCA so you're both listening to env1 and also the VCA is being modulated by it. So I think it's some kind of FM effect?
Yeah, the settings have to be super precise which is strange. When I get a chance I'll try it with envelope two to see if I can get the same thing.
In my testing with the video, I kept the VCA open the whole time with the bias knob, so I'm hesitant on saying VCA modulation is actually causing it. Although I know you can make subharmonics with a gated VCA, so of course it's totally possible.
Basically, more testing is needed haha.
@@RickHowell I tried with env2 with no results. I kept the VCA open too, but here's the funny thing - turning it down made no difference, even to zero.
I might see if I can replicate it with standalone modules to see what connections are actually required.
That's a very exciting development! I'll see what I can find out as well, and thank you for exploring this nook with me
@@RickHowell So I did some experimenting today. I tried every other envelope generator I have - a few standalone modules and the ones on the Behringer 2600. None of them exhibited this behavior at all and many of them wouldn't even make sound except with almost all the parameters down
So I guess my theory now is retriggering behavior. If you pass a sin wave into the gate input, it will only be considered "on" for part of the positive phase of the sine wave, so you'll get one short pulse per VCO cycle. If the neutron doesn't retrigger in the sustain or delay phase then once you turn, say, the delay up, then by the time you get to the next pulse you'll still be in the delay phase and it won't retrigger, so then you'll only get one envelope cycle every 2 VCO cycles. It'll go like that in integer multiples.
(This is just a theory. From the behavior I saw, I think my other envelopes always retrigger)
Yeah, I think I'm getting that feeling too. The shape of the envelope is causing it to retrigger after 'n' number of cycles of the oscillator that's triggering it.
I also ran the envelope out into an oscilloscope and found some weird phenomenon with the waveform that I'll be reporting on later once I can figure out some more things.
Tony C also commented on how the envelope might work like a RC circuit which might be causing this behavior.
All in all, more formalizing to be done to make this more than conjecture, but this is some amazing progress!
Wow 😮