At the same time, convoluted and time consuming button pressing and menu diving doesn't deserve to control your relationship with your own art either. I used to love making beats on old MPCs but I find it to be such a hassle now with all the tedious trimming and saving of files and individual assigning of files to pads, and having to do my taxes on the numpad just to move all the samples up a semitone etc... It was a valuable and rewarding experience for a while, but I don't feel chained to it just because it's cooler to avoid using a computer or whatever.
This is the one i am so pragmatic and efficient. My main way of working, also on work. And I kept trying to do everything in the box because of that. But inspiration does not strike there
I have background in photography and spent years on camera gear forums. There you see many people, with actual portfolios, talking about their gear and workflows, and why they made those choices for themselves. On the other hand you people that vigorously try to convince *others* why they should choose a piece of gear. Those people rarely if ever show their own work. And it made me realize: these people just have different hobbies: some use gear because they love photography, others use gear because they love technology. They love cameras just for the sake they are cameras. And I guess this is true for every hobby/profession that requires technical gear. There is a large percentage of people on synth forums that do not have a real intend to make music, they just like gear. And that is fine. But it is good to recognize it, and realize where someone comes from. I am always interested in choice that people make who actually create things, and it's their opinions that I value. Thanks for your video. I agree 100%!
Agreed, I can't stand those videos of creators pushing you to think buying the gear they get paid to review is the right way or the only way to go. I'm a photographer as well and I can honestly say that my Nikon D90 shoots better pics at 12MP with facial recognition versus my Canon 80D but I wouldn't make a video pushing people to buy something that doesn't suit their needs.
@@jhillphotodesigns I think the only legit use of AI in music is neural amp modeller, neutone, and any mixing plugin related things. They're useful/unique and not soul sucking evil.
My biggest reason is that I spend 9+ hours a day looking at a computer screen for work and have for the last few decades. I relate computers to work and when I want to make music, I don't want to feel like I am at work.
This. 3000%. Probably no coincidence that I started to dabble in hardware during the lockdowns in pandemic, when my home computer became my workplace. After 8,9, 10, 11 or 12 hours sat in front of that computer, funnily enough, I didn’t feel hella inspired to sit there for another few hours to make music. Humans are funny like that.
I started with a Juno-106 in 1985 that my father's colleague in the industry sold him for cheap. Then around 6 years later I'd saved up for a workstation, the W-30. And eventually other synths and samplers, usually second or third-hand! I only went over to computers for sequencing in 1999 with E-Magic's Logic. I continued on that path until the lock down, when my computer packed up! I am currently very happy at 51, after 30+ years as an industry session keyboard player, both studio and live, and as a recording writer, to create using Koala on an iPad! 😁 This was the first of your videos I'd seen, and I've just watched the 1 hour beats video. And subscribed! I see you, brother. And I'm feeling it. 🙏🕊️💜
Both systems have their advantages. I started writing in the 90s and to me.”DAWless” just means.” how everybody did things in 1987.”. I like that writing process. I learned how to write using samplers and sequencers and a tape machine. But I’ve also finished albums using a DAW. It is an awesome tool! It is a great place to finish a piece. Unfortunately, for me, the spark of inspiration just isn’t there when I’m sitting in front of a computer with a mouse. I like to treat my DAW as a giant tape deck that lets me capture a performance and then edit and tweak that performance until it’s a finished recording. And I agree, 100%. Unless you’re in a production environment, where you have to be working on a clock to a deadline and be able to recall exact settings from something you worked on three months ago because a client needs a new version of it, then you have the luxury to do whatever makes you happy. Go with the workflow that brings you the most joy. If it’s hardware, use hardware if it’s software, use software. Neither is wrong.
Wise words! Worked with multi platinum mix engineer David Kalmusky, watching him mix on a physical desk, dude put his full heart into sliding them faders. Whatever brings out that level of childlike wonder. 🤘a song I wrote on a £2 nylon string charity shop guitar made the cut to an album because the feeling in that take couldn't be replicated with a £1k proper nylon string. To me art is capturing a feeling and whatever is the most fun route is the one you take, also sometimes those limitations become characteristics. Really loving these nuggets of wisdom!
Such an eloquent, thoughtful and informed discussion about a topic too often argued about. Thank you for keeping the respectful subjectivity of art alive🙏🏽❤️
I started three years ago with the laptop I had, a keystep 37, and Ableton lite. I made a lot of work that way and learned a lot. Hardware presented me with a brick wall - latency, interfaces, cables, MIDI assignments. It has taken me years of learning, building a custom PC, and picking up a Hydrasynth that really got me excited to use hardware. I can pour so much expression into that synth, and I can map that into the PC. The fun is off the charts for me. If you're going to get into hardware be prepared to wade through the initial stages of I/O and latency before you get excited about that machine potential. From experience I've had it kill my creativity when I'm diagnosing ASIO driver latency instead of making music, which is why we're all here.
I think what it is for me is that hardware helps me separate the creative process from the mixing process. My first 1-2 years I was working in Ableton and I would spend a life time mixing and re mixing the same track until one day I realized it wasn’t the mix or the tools I was using it was just not a great idea to begin with. I got so wrapped up in the unlimited possibilities and techniques available to me in the DAW. So I found myself stepping further and further away from the DAW. I got a maschine, then an Sp404 and I find that I’m just enjoying making beats and not stressing about mixing and mastering to get that perfect track. Now I’ll make a handful of beats and pick one or two of those that I think are good and mix them in the DAW.
sometimes its too easy to speedrun a beat on a computer. a lot of people like easy breasy video games, many others want fromsoft joints, most want some mix of both.
I'll say that sometimes it's so easy to get something done on software now it moves faster than my critical thinking skills and I'll just do the easiest thing to get to the next step, which can sometimes make worse stuff. But also that's just discipline I lack
That's funny because fromsoft games can be made easy if you use certain strategies. That's why I like computers because YOU get to determine how easy or difficult you want the process to be. For me, hardware is just difficult with no way to make it easier if I want to skip some steps.
After using Reason for a long time, I made the switch to hardware a little over a year ago (MPC One). I'm not going back. I have a lot more fun creating music on my unit. When you said, "...It's a dedicated zone...." that is my sentiment EXACTLY! I found that I was tinkering too much when creating on a computer. I found myself clicking with the mouse on what seemed like a never-ending variety of VSTs, plugins etc., taking time away from actually creating music. I was always searching for a new VST to add to my repertoire, making myself crazy instead of creating. Working in the box is an amazing feeling, I actually enjoy the limitation it presents. And though you could connect a midi controller to the computer (which I did for the 'hardware feel'), it's not the same as a hardware sampler.....the feel is different on my MPC and I have SO MUCH more fun creating beats.
this was such an inspirational video man! thank you for emphasizing the core of making music, having fun, which is something I've been lacking focusing too much on "potential" and feeling overwhelmed.
this is such a genius video jon and thanks for putting these thoughts into words for people. i used an mpc 2000xl for yeeeears with just a barebones tape recording setup. i wanted to learn that way. now i have and fully endorse a full hybrid studio with a bunch of gear all synced up to ableton! best of both baybeee
There is an incredible amount of care and consideration put into this video, an incredible watch. Take your time as the viewer and give the video time to cook.
That was a very thoughtful, professional answer. Thank you for not falling for dismissiveness, even though the question does get tiresome. Hats off, you're a great dude
Just discovered your channel through Rhett Shull’s recent video. Love these thoughts and I appreciate how your articulated your viewpoint. Look forward to watching more from your channel! 👍
Really happy someone’s sending this message. I’ve self-sabotaged my own music creation in the pursuit of “efficiency” for way too long. Very recently realized that my best workflow ever, and where I was happiest, was using my guitar, bass, crappy Casiotone Goodwill special keyboard, and my effects pedals with a sampler (any sampler), and arranging songs that way. Gradually getting back to that. Only took me 10 years of experimenting lol
I spent years just not enjoying trying to use Ableton. Bought a Circuit Tracks and fell in love with physical hardware and the tactile experience. Now I'm almost completely DAW-less with an MPC Live and some synths and it just feels right to me. To each their own, follow what inspires you.
I think for most people a software program is just too big to completely master. And it's intimidating working with things you don't fully know like the back of your hand.
@@jonmakesbeats Even though I use a PC most DAWs have way to much going on now. Everyone is converging on the same feature set with tons of synths, samplers, drum machines, etc. I find myself using my daw to record samples and loops with midi controlling some of the devices. I could probably just use ACID or Cubase from like 2002 - 2005 to do what I do. Something like Bitwig is amazing on paper but is a mess. Most old school hip hop would basically be 8 to 16 audio tracks with almost no eq or effects.
@@JakeSkillman To each their own opinions & ideas. For me "DAW-less" is about the physical experience of knobs & faders vs. clicking through VSTs and screens. The MPC is "DAW-like" but I use it mostly as a MIDI sequencer and sampler while physically controlling my other gear. So I guess a standalone Push would meet that criteria, never tried one though.
Wow. That was not the argument I was expecting, but it could not have been any better. Thanks for making an intellectually honest and nuanced analysis of the tools we use to make music!
I'm a hardcore software-only guy and I have so much respect for how well and sensitively you tackled this question. Even answering all the hardest questions about it. Brilliant video, I love seeing someone who's passionate and also articulate about the things they love. So cool. ❤
To me, I just went from primarily using FL20, moving to a DAWless setup w/ an MPC, a few synths and a couple midi controllers. What I love about DAWless is I feel more connected to the music I create. That’s really it.
The most intellectually satisfying discussion on the art of beatmaking ive heard yet. Good job man, your passionate about music on a deep level and you definitely read books too. Subscribed!
Glad I stuck around for this one, you are spot on about the art. we are in such a rush to complete things and meet deadlines.. vs chilling and creating..
I learned to commit to sounds and sequences on limited hardware samplers and synths, this makes it easier to work with a computer and not get carried away by all the options it offers. Push was pretty much the reason why i sold a lot of my equipment, i loved the workflow from the first iteration onwards and it gives me the feeling of working with an instrument rather than a DAW plus all the benefits a computer offers when i need them.
I started producing with a MicroKORG, Boss DR5 drum machine, and Pro Tools MBOX when I was 14 years old on a really shitty desktop computer. I've gone through many permutations of gear and DAW since then. I went through the last 2 years being super influenced by youtube and getting trapped in gearmania. I started to lose the ability to tell whether I wanted something because it seemed fun and would work or because the psychological efficacy of the marketing was working. At the end of the day, I had to take a break from it all and just make music and my conclusion has been similar. I had to stop thinking technically and technologically and approach my music MUSICALLY and EXPRESSIVELY and use what I want. Finally settled into the equipment I enjoy and now I'm just enjoying it and forgetting about the irrelevant external nonsense. I've had a similar process with my journey as a writer. Great video and very poignant insights.
Great perspective. When anyone asks the hardware vs software question, my answer is always both. Hybrid is the way for me, but I would never judge what others use to create...that's just weird, in my opinion
Very honest and informative, Greatly appreciated! I personally use hardware and a DAW, but I learned a long time ago your workflow is just as much of a Art-form as the music we make. No explanation needed do you!
I went the opposite way, and switched from hardware to a laptop, and I'm having tons of fun with all the plugins. We are extremely lucky to be able to choose from all these tools to express ourselves musically.
I think you should use whatever makes you happy and creative. I have used both, and both have their merits. I like a hybrid setup. When I just want to play some keys, practice, etc, I like to just turn on a hardware keyboard and play. But, anyone who remembers the old days of having to do multiple passes can appreciate modern tracking. At the end of the day, the listener cares about whether they like the song or not, and whether it sounds good. The people that care about the tools are other producers. How often do you go out to eat and care about what brand of pots or knives the chef used? That is how the general listener is to a producer's beat.
I own an Octatrack, an MPC, and several synthesizers. I've created a lot of music using Reason and Ableton. However, the most fun I've had making beats has been with a $30 microcontroller that runs Dirtywave M8 Headless.
As somebody that constantly hops between the MPC and ITB, you should switch up the gear you use. I’m not saying force yourself to make a DAW video if you aren’t feeling it. But don’t be afraid to change up the tools. I think a lot of us appreciate the process no matter what you use.
Great video, totally agree on all points. I really like having the nuanced conversations about gear where I get to learn "why" someone's setup makes them feel more creative or how it maximizes the joy of the process. I've noticed many people balk at questions about their gear because they don't want to have the other conversation about justifying what they use. I remember watching Kiefer's twitch streams during the pandemic and he always got questions about the plugins or keyboards and he seemed to always be frustrated about those questions, but every now and then the question would be asked in the right way that would get him talking about his process in a really insightful way. I think the more interesting side of the conversation (i.e. creativity/joy) is harder because we just don't have the language to describe the nuance. For example, I really like a device that can "lazy chop" because that extra workflow speed gets me to the fun part before I lose interest, but I don't know how to describe my frustration with the opposite workflow. Like simpler in Ableton where you have to click to add each slice point, that sort of task makes me want to stop working on music, which doesn't fully convey the type of frustration I get from it. Does that make sense?
The made some marketing mistakes around the same time Live was becoming the standard for bedroom producers, they have never really recovered from that. I personally still use it all the time though.
@@jonmakesbeats I started using Reason 5.0 back in like 2007/2008, and it took me until 2021 til I finally upgraded to R9 with VST support, so I know a thing or two about working with limitations haha. I can't wait to bump it up to R12 though, I want shiny new toys :D
@@aikighost Yeah and the subscription model seems like....Idk a divisive use of resources? Idk if that's the best way to put it, but yeah I do wish they would do more promotional stuff. There are really great producers that use Reason, but it's always a surprise to find them as opposed to just widely known
Jonwayne! love seeing where you’ve taken your art and how you’ve evolved into such a even more humble and well spoken dude. Jamming with you and Edwin back at his parents crib how ever many years ago is still a core memory. - Elan
Ableton Live Lite + cheap 2nd hand laptop / midi keys / speakers or phones = £500. All u need. Good vid. Would like to have music revenue to spend money on a room, semi-acoustic guitar, drum kit and some percussion.
My dad found a laptop back in the 90ies with an old FL Studio on it. Still use it. Sure sometimes, I want to be like an „MPC type“, but thats perfectly alright.
As a person that can't play instruments, making music on a computer has actually driven me to want to buy more gear so that I have more control over my sounds.
As someone with only basic keyboard skills, it is just SO much more fun to jam out on real units, and tweak real knobs on my delays and mixer as I do so. its also cool having dedicated controls for each unit, rather than switching from channel to channel in a DAW.
Miller Puckette, the guy who created Max/MSP and PureData, has noted that making music in a DAW actually involves very little "playing" of music in the traditional sense, and that most of what takes place in that process actually resembles office work. Office work sucks, even if the results turn out cool.
Also, who do you want to be. As most things in life, digital tools have made it possible for people to do things on their own. You can do your own taxes, you can check out your own groceries or you can be your own recording engineer,, mastering engineer, tape machine technician… That’s great. But not everyone wants to. If I go to the store, I want to be the customer, not an employee. If I make music, I don’t want to take on other jobs.
for the luv of music use what you can. for the luv of music find what you luv. this video reminds me why i was drawn to dude's channel - sharp mind, excellent communicator, engaging manner, curious, luvs musical expression. good stuff 👍
DAWless all the way. The reason i don't make music on the computer is because it's too easy. I don't want making music to be easy. I want to fiddle with the sound. And I WANT it to be limited. Like you mention, there's nothing wrong with limitless. But I want to see what I can do with limited. Also, i want the tactile feeling of touching something physical. There's something missing making music with a mouse.
All this "making music on a computer is easy" stuff kind of alienates and cheapens people who really put a lot of work, time, thought, energy and money into learning how to mix basic tracks on computer hardware. I stopped making music period because I got tired of the rest of you telling me how to make it, how to make it authentic and assuming the difficulty level of what I did. I wouldn't even give you people music for free 🤷🏻♂️
TL;DR I fell out of love with music because I fell out of love with the audience and other people's opinions entirely. It became something to keep to myself. There are people who have known me for my entire life and they have no idea I even own musical instruments, or was at any point even remotely interested in music. You get tired of the "so what's your real job?" or "oh, do you play any songs I would know?" or, "It's just stuff you made on a computer is it?" eventually
@@neilpatrickhairless maybe a better way to put it, I want the extra challenge and limitations. i understand how the consumer has no clue what really goes into music production. that sucks, but kinda par for the course. people doesn't appreciate all the work that goes into road construction, or idk, ceiling fan design. i mean idk what's involved in celling fan design, but it's prob a lot
Kudos for putting effort into a well-balanced, well-thought out and ultimately well-grounded answer, as opposed to just transferring a personal opinion or even worse, paid-for statement. Taking various points of view, even questioning your own conviction, only to come to a conclusion, is a rare virtue nowadays.
As someone with major adhd and ocd tism brain, I originally got into hardware to remove distractions. Whenever I make beats on a computer, I end up clicking around on other shit and get sidetracked. I can't pull up videos of big goth anime tiddys on my mpc. I'm locked the fuck in.
Cheers to that! Artists can choose a medium. There's truly nothing more correct to use in the world of art if it is what someone can make good stuff on and enjoy. I can love both digital and analog, I can love artists who don't know music theory and musicians who know more than I ever comprehend, and I can love master audio wizards and pure wild expressionists. In fact, I can AND do! I went to school for game art and had a ton of work with traditional artists and digital artists of all types. In that environment, you don't obsess about pure efficiency; you obsess how to keep your brain loving what you are doing so you can actually finish something! Everyone made cool stuff or had cool ideas, but finishing requires that special sauce of truly loving it
Killer video. Fun. This is the answer. I literally laughed when you said it, because it's something I completely relate to and so glad to hear you say it. 🎉
Great talking point and as an "old guy" that started well before the MPC and samplers in general dropped, running through all the studio tools from 80 Series Neves to my now humble PC, old RME FF400 interface and a mix of analog and digital tools so can speak to both. Your pragmatic presentation underlying "just have fun" using w/e it takes for you to make you own music - or capturing the visions for others - and have at er! Circling back to old guy, I'm primarily ITB now simply for convenience, ease of recall and only requiring a small footprint of real estate for my rig. Nothing more to it than that.Cheers, M8.
As someone who plays guitar and started out with playing music the very old fashioned way, a DAW was like an alien landscape, with limitless possibilities. Dawless is the ultimate midpoint between an instrument and a Daw. Lots of advantages to playing live instruments and lots of advantages with a Daw. I feel like Dawless is a very intentional choice. It gives a unique set of limitations, and its as tactile and live as an instrument. I can’t afford it at the moment, but I am fascinated and obsessed with following the Dawless movement. It’s like trying to get the core organic humanity of a live performance fused with the digital art palette and all the options that brings. Much respect Jon, and to all those who make music either way. The listener knows and feels when we do it for the love, no matter how we get there. Whether it’s sheet music, a flute, or a sequencer, the listener just hears the music.
It all makes sense. We are all here to have fun, use what gives you more joy and pleasure in the process. I love both hardware and software, Monday I use MPC, Tuesday I use Logic, Wednesday is MC707, Thursday Yamaha PSR SX900 and so on…
that was a really nice explanation of the discussion from your perspective. thanks for sharing! i recently decided to put all of my instruments back in their box and for me it was a fantastic decision. for years i was stuck in the mindset of "a real musician has real instruments" which only lead to me getting more and more instruments which i never used enough to build muscle memory but always feeling like i need to use them because my young self would've killed for my setup. in the end this just meant that i barely turned them on for years and in turn also meant i was just not having fun. when i decided to put them all away i refound much of the magic i felt when starting out but instead of being a broke teenager i now had sick instruments waiting for me to be discovered. my only rule is: i get them out when i want to use them and when i'm done i'll put them back in the box. for everybody in a similar situation, give it chance. i found child like fun in music making again and it's awesome!
and yet you are using little computers to make beats. so.. you DO use computers
He mentioned you in the video lol
@@mikewill5386at the very begining on top of that lol
X)
It has been foretold.
In other words, it's pointless to ask someone why not just use a computer, then, since they're already using one by that definition?
Jon Makes Sense
Indeed
Indeed
Indeed
Most Definitely
📠 🐝
"Efficiency doesn't deserve to control your relationship with your own art"
I would say efficiency kill creativity
At the same time, convoluted and time consuming button pressing and menu diving doesn't deserve to control your relationship with your own art either. I used to love making beats on old MPCs but I find it to be such a hassle now with all the tedious trimming and saving of files and individual assigning of files to pads, and having to do my taxes on the numpad just to move all the samples up a semitone etc... It was a valuable and rewarding experience for a while, but I don't feel chained to it just because it's cooler to avoid using a computer or whatever.
This is the one i am so pragmatic and efficient. My main way of working, also on work. And I kept trying to do everything in the box because of that. But inspiration does not strike there
Man….i had to stop the video and repeat that a few times. This dude is spittin bars!
if my setup isnt efficient it feels cumbersome and frustrating to use
"chasing potential vs. chasing results" - PUT THAT ON A BUMPER STICKER
Thanks for checking in man
Y'all can be in so much of a rush with all the chasing.
Another way to go might be to thoroughly explore possibilities.
yep this truly defined and at the same time answered the GAS and every gear discussion ever
@@CatFish107 Hmmm when you're on that "Ne" cognitive function! 😋
“The absence of limitations is the enemy of art”.
There will always be limitations
Yeah but thats not what the saying means@mango4two101
“Limitations can force you to be more creative”
I have background in photography and spent years on camera gear forums. There you see many people, with actual portfolios, talking about their gear and workflows, and why they made those choices for themselves. On the other hand you people that vigorously try to convince *others* why they should choose a piece of gear. Those people rarely if ever show their own work. And it made me realize: these people just have different hobbies: some use gear because they love photography, others use gear because they love technology. They love cameras just for the sake they are cameras. And I guess this is true for every hobby/profession that requires technical gear. There is a large percentage of people on synth forums that do not have a real intend to make music, they just like gear. And that is fine. But it is good to recognize it, and realize where someone comes from. I am always interested in choice that people make who actually create things, and it's their opinions that I value. Thanks for your video. I agree 100%!
Appreciate your insight
Agreed, I can't stand those videos of creators pushing you to think buying the gear they get paid to review is the right way or the only way to go. I'm a photographer as well and I can honestly say that my Nikon D90 shoots better pics at 12MP with facial recognition versus my Canon 80D but I wouldn't make a video pushing people to buy something that doesn't suit their needs.
People who are driven to make music will make music with anything they can.
@@PeterJnicol Until that disclaimer pops up saying they used AI in their music lol
@@jhillphotodesigns I think the only legit use of AI in music is neural amp modeller, neutone, and any mixing plugin related things. They're useful/unique and not soul sucking evil.
My biggest reason is that I spend 9+ hours a day looking at a computer screen for work and have for the last few decades. I relate computers to work and when I want to make music, I don't want to feel like I am at work.
The rise of screen time has definitely created stronger arguments for hardware in recent years
My place exactly
This. 3000%.
Probably no coincidence that I started to dabble in hardware during the lockdowns in pandemic, when my home computer became my workplace. After 8,9, 10, 11 or 12 hours sat in front of that computer, funnily enough, I didn’t feel hella inspired to sit there for another few hours to make music.
Humans are funny like that.
In my world, computers are for emails, spreadsheets and word docs.
Musical instruments are for music.
Same here.
For me... it's all about using gear that inspires me to make the music that makes me happy.
yup
I started with a Juno-106 in 1985 that my father's colleague in the industry sold him for cheap. Then around 6 years later I'd saved up for a workstation, the W-30. And eventually other synths and samplers, usually second or third-hand! I only went over to computers for sequencing in 1999 with E-Magic's Logic. I continued on that path until the lock down, when my computer packed up!
I am currently very happy at 51, after 30+ years as an industry session keyboard player, both studio and live, and as a recording writer, to create using Koala on an iPad! 😁
This was the first of your videos I'd seen, and I've just watched the 1 hour beats video. And subscribed! I see you, brother. And I'm feeling it. 🙏🕊️💜
Loved your take dude! Art comes first, the tools you use are just personal preference 🤘🏻
Hell yeah thanks for stopping by man.
Both systems have their advantages. I started writing in the 90s and to me.”DAWless” just means.” how everybody did things in 1987.”. I like that writing process. I learned how to write using samplers and sequencers and a tape machine.
But I’ve also finished albums using a DAW. It is an awesome tool! It is a great place to finish a piece. Unfortunately, for me, the spark of inspiration just isn’t there when I’m sitting in front of a computer with a mouse. I like to treat my DAW as a giant tape deck that lets me capture a performance and then edit and tweak that performance until it’s a finished recording.
And I agree, 100%. Unless you’re in a production environment, where you have to be working on a clock to a deadline and be able to recall exact settings from something you worked on three months ago because a client needs a new version of it, then you have the luxury to do whatever makes you happy. Go with the workflow that brings you the most joy. If it’s hardware, use hardware if it’s software, use software. Neither is wrong.
So long as your DAW is a linear tape machine and not a grid of quantised beats.
Wise words! Worked with multi platinum mix engineer David Kalmusky, watching him mix on a physical desk, dude put his full heart into sliding them faders. Whatever brings out that level of childlike wonder. 🤘a song I wrote on a £2 nylon string charity shop guitar made the cut to an album because the feeling in that take couldn't be replicated with a £1k proper nylon string. To me art is capturing a feeling and whatever is the most fun route is the one you take, also sometimes those limitations become characteristics.
Really loving these nuggets of wisdom!
That must have been an experience!
Great Talk. I like the way you framed this. It's a talk that needed to happen.
This video drops moments after Apple drops new M4 Macbooks
timing is everything
@ Tim Apple is cooking up a diss track in Garagband as we speak!
😂
I mean, would love to have one. Would also love an Octatrack and Polybrute 12.
It's like Alec Empire said on the ATR channel: The best music computer has already been made: the Atari ST. Don't spend the money.
Such an eloquent, thoughtful and informed discussion about a topic too often argued about. Thank you for keeping the respectful subjectivity of art alive🙏🏽❤️
This is an amazing philisophical discussion on the nature of music
I started three years ago with the laptop I had, a keystep 37, and Ableton lite. I made a lot of work that way and learned a lot.
Hardware presented me with a brick wall - latency, interfaces, cables, MIDI assignments. It has taken me years of learning, building a custom PC, and picking up a Hydrasynth that really got me excited to use hardware. I can pour so much expression into that synth, and I can map that into the PC. The fun is off the charts for me.
If you're going to get into hardware be prepared to wade through the initial stages of I/O and latency before you get excited about that machine potential. From experience I've had it kill my creativity when I'm diagnosing ASIO driver latency instead of making music, which is why we're all here.
I think what it is for me is that hardware helps me separate the creative process from the mixing process. My first 1-2 years I was working in Ableton and I would spend a life time mixing and re mixing the same track until one day I realized it wasn’t the mix or the tools I was using it was just not a great idea to begin with. I got so wrapped up in the unlimited possibilities and techniques available to me in the DAW. So I found myself stepping further and further away from the DAW. I got a maschine, then an Sp404 and I find that I’m just enjoying making beats and not stressing about mixing and mastering to get that perfect track. Now I’ll make a handful of beats and pick one or two of those that I think are good and mix them in the DAW.
sometimes its too easy to speedrun a beat on a computer. a lot of people like easy breasy video games, many others want fromsoft joints, most want some mix of both.
I'll say that sometimes it's so easy to get something done on software now it moves faster than my critical thinking skills and I'll just do the easiest thing to get to the next step, which can sometimes make worse stuff. But also that's just discipline I lack
I love a good animal crossing sesh but nothing competes with a Dark Souls 3 playthrough yk?
And some want to mod the game, and others are interested in making their own. Lots of room for all approaches.
That's funny because fromsoft games can be made easy if you use certain strategies. That's why I like computers because YOU get to determine how easy or difficult you want the process to be. For me, hardware is just difficult with no way to make it easier if I want to skip some steps.
After using Reason for a long time, I made the switch to hardware a little over a year ago (MPC One). I'm not going back. I have a lot more fun creating music on my unit. When you said, "...It's a dedicated zone...." that is my sentiment EXACTLY! I found that I was tinkering too much when creating on a computer. I found myself clicking with the mouse on what seemed like a never-ending variety of VSTs, plugins etc., taking time away from actually creating music. I was always searching for a new VST to add to my repertoire, making myself crazy instead of creating. Working in the box is an amazing feeling, I actually enjoy the limitation it presents. And though you could connect a midi controller to the computer (which I did for the 'hardware feel'), it's not the same as a hardware sampler.....the feel is different on my MPC and I have SO MUCH more fun creating beats.
I completely agree. I came from Logic
Same. Came from Reason too.
this was such an inspirational video man! thank you for emphasizing the core of making music, having fun, which is something I've been lacking focusing too much on "potential" and feeling overwhelmed.
this is such a genius video jon and thanks for putting these thoughts into words for people. i used an mpc 2000xl for yeeeears with just a barebones tape recording setup. i wanted to learn that way. now i have and fully endorse a full hybrid studio with a bunch of gear all synced up to ableton! best of both baybeee
Dude, I have never seen anyone else (other than myself) to write baby like "baybee" dude, are we soulmates?
@@JethroDAvis024 🥹
There is an incredible amount of care and consideration put into this video, an incredible watch. Take your time as the viewer and give the video time to cook.
It's about the journey and the fun for me. Learning and exploring hardware devices this year really bolstered my love of the music creation process
Glad you've been having fun
That was a very thoughtful, professional answer. Thank you for not falling for dismissiveness, even though the question does get tiresome. Hats off, you're a great dude
Just discovered your channel through Rhett Shull’s recent video. Love these thoughts and I appreciate how your articulated your viewpoint. Look forward to watching more from your channel! 👍
Here we are buddy. Enjoy the trip
super pertinent, it's about the desire to create, not the possibilities, you're the beatmaker philosopher :)
love to ear you, cheers from belgium
100% Agree. Choose whatever suits to you and have fun✌️
Literally the single greatest video on this topic I have ever, EVER, seen. Thank you Jon. Inspiring as always :)
great video big dawg; we appreciate you.
Thank you
Really happy someone’s sending this message. I’ve self-sabotaged my own music creation in the pursuit of “efficiency” for way too long. Very recently realized that my best workflow ever, and where I was happiest, was using my guitar, bass, crappy Casiotone Goodwill special keyboard, and my effects pedals with a sampler (any sampler), and arranging songs that way. Gradually getting back to that. Only took me 10 years of experimenting lol
I spent years just not enjoying trying to use Ableton. Bought a Circuit Tracks and fell in love with physical hardware and the tactile experience. Now I'm almost completely DAW-less with an MPC Live and some synths and it just feels right to me. To each their own, follow what inspires you.
I think for most people a software program is just too big to completely master. And it's intimidating working with things you don't fully know like the back of your hand.
@@jonmakesbeats Even though I use a PC most DAWs have way to much going on now. Everyone is converging on the same feature set with tons of synths, samplers, drum machines, etc. I find myself using my daw to record samples and loops with midi controlling some of the devices. I could probably just use ACID or Cubase from like 2002 - 2005 to do what I do. Something like Bitwig is amazing on paper but is a mess. Most old school hip hop would basically be 8 to 16 audio tracks with almost no eq or effects.
An MPC live is a DAW, though. Would you say a standalone Push is a dawless setup?
@@JakeSkillman To each their own opinions & ideas. For me "DAW-less" is about the physical experience of knobs & faders vs. clicking through VSTs and screens. The MPC is "DAW-like" but I use it mostly as a MIDI sequencer and sampler while physically controlling my other gear. So I guess a standalone Push would meet that criteria, never tried one though.
Wow. That was not the argument I was expecting, but it could not have been any better. Thanks for making an intellectually honest and nuanced analysis of the tools we use to make music!
Hands-down, this was the best take. I’ve heard so far on “ hardware or software”! Good job Jon!
Thanks for listening to what I had to say
Totally agree!
Thanks so much for this, John! Love the hardware history lesson. Keep up the awesomeness 🌱
This is one of the many reasons why I subscribe to and watch all of Jon’s videos.
Thanks for doing so
I'm a hardcore software-only guy and I have so much respect for how well and sensitively you tackled this question. Even answering all the hardest questions about it. Brilliant video, I love seeing someone who's passionate and also articulate about the things they love. So cool. ❤
To me, I just went from primarily using FL20, moving to a DAWless setup w/ an MPC, a few synths and a couple midi controllers. What I love about DAWless is I feel more connected to the music I create. That’s really it.
The most intellectually satisfying discussion on the art of beatmaking ive heard yet. Good job man, your passionate about music on a deep level and you definitely read books too. Subscribed!
I'm very new to music production and I very much appreciated this video!
you’re in the right place
Glad I stuck around for this one, you are spot on about the art. we are in such a rush to complete things and meet deadlines.. vs chilling and creating..
I learned to commit to sounds and sequences on limited hardware samplers and synths, this makes it easier to work with a computer and not get carried away by all the options it offers. Push was pretty much the reason why i sold a lot of my equipment, i loved the workflow from the first iteration onwards and it gives me the feeling of working with an instrument rather than a DAW plus all the benefits a computer offers when i need them.
Jon Makes Facts. Thanks for sharing!!! This was well thought out yo... Peace
I started producing with a MicroKORG, Boss DR5 drum machine, and Pro Tools MBOX when I was 14 years old on a really shitty desktop computer. I've gone through many permutations of gear and DAW since then. I went through the last 2 years being super influenced by youtube and getting trapped in gearmania. I started to lose the ability to tell whether I wanted something because it seemed fun and would work or because the psychological efficacy of the marketing was working.
At the end of the day, I had to take a break from it all and just make music and my conclusion has been similar. I had to stop thinking technically and technologically and approach my music MUSICALLY and EXPRESSIVELY and use what I want. Finally settled into the equipment I enjoy and now I'm just enjoying it and forgetting about the irrelevant external nonsense. I've had a similar process with my journey as a writer.
Great video and very poignant insights.
GAS is a thing
Gear acquisition syndrome is real
@ Without a doubt. I was afflicted for a good two years haha. Buy, sell, buy, the new version drops, sell, buy... endless haha.
Hardware is so exciting!! You have a beautiful studio! ❤ Thank you for your intelligent and entertaining content.
Great perspective. When anyone asks the hardware vs software question, my answer is always both. Hybrid is the way for me, but I would never judge what others use to create...that's just weird, in my opinion
Agreed
Wow what a great video, it extends to more than just making beats. Really eye-opening, will be thinking on this for some time
In it for the fun of it, you nailed it.
It’s the answer
Very honest and informative, Greatly appreciated! I personally use hardware and a DAW, but I learned a long time ago your workflow is just as much of a Art-form as the music we make. No explanation needed do you!
I went the opposite way, and switched from hardware to a laptop, and I'm having tons of fun with all the plugins. We are extremely lucky to be able to choose from all these tools to express ourselves musically.
Agreed
thanks for the vid, I appreciate learning the history behind your choices. W jon
I think you should use whatever makes you happy and creative. I have used both, and both have their merits. I like a hybrid setup. When I just want to play some keys, practice, etc, I like to just turn on a hardware keyboard and play. But, anyone who remembers the old days of having to do multiple passes can appreciate modern tracking. At the end of the day, the listener cares about whether they like the song or not, and whether it sounds good. The people that care about the tools are other producers. How often do you go out to eat and care about what brand of pots or knives the chef used? That is how the general listener is to a producer's beat.
Yup
Very eloquently put. And I hadn’t considered the reversal of the whole computer-vs-hardware discussion you mentioned, proper interesting stuff
Yes sir. Kindred spirits. 😂😂😂😂cause it’s fun 😂😂😂🎉🎉🎉🎉❤️ great vid …100
The most intelligent, thoughtful and respectful viewpoint I've EVER heard on this subject. Thank you SO much for sharing 🙏🙏
I own an Octatrack, an MPC, and several synthesizers. I've created a lot of music using Reason and Ableton. However, the most fun I've had making beats has been with a $30 microcontroller that runs Dirtywave M8 Headless.
Oh shiii I had no idea you could run it headless like that. That's so damn cool.
Great video bubba. Really like how you approached it from both sides and showing that neither argument is rooted in the art.
As somebody that constantly hops between the MPC and ITB, you should switch up the gear you use. I’m not saying force yourself to make a DAW video if you aren’t feeling it. But don’t be afraid to change up the tools. I think a lot of us appreciate the process no matter what you use.
I love your message Jon, I greatly appreciate your genuine nature. Thank you for being an open minded person.
Mad wisdom droppin here. King sht.
Appreciate you listening
Great video, totally agree on all points.
I really like having the nuanced conversations about gear where I get to learn "why" someone's setup makes them feel more creative or how it maximizes the joy of the process. I've noticed many people balk at questions about their gear because they don't want to have the other conversation about justifying what they use.
I remember watching Kiefer's twitch streams during the pandemic and he always got questions about the plugins or keyboards and he seemed to always be frustrated about those questions, but every now and then the question would be asked in the right way that would get him talking about his process in a really insightful way.
I think the more interesting side of the conversation (i.e. creativity/joy) is harder because we just don't have the language to describe the nuance. For example, I really like a device that can "lazy chop" because that extra workflow speed gets me to the fun part before I lose interest, but I don't know how to describe my frustration with the opposite workflow. Like simpler in Ableton where you have to click to add each slice point, that sort of task makes me want to stop working on music, which doesn't fully convey the type of frustration I get from it. Does that make sense?
Whenever someone lists popular DAWs and I sit there waiting to hear 'Reason' and it never comes 😭
Same.
Maybe next time
The made some marketing mistakes around the same time Live was becoming the standard for bedroom producers, they have never really recovered from that. I personally still use it all the time though.
@@jonmakesbeats I started using Reason 5.0 back in like 2007/2008, and it took me until 2021 til I finally upgraded to R9 with VST support, so I know a thing or two about working with limitations haha. I can't wait to bump it up to R12 though, I want shiny new toys :D
@@aikighost Yeah and the subscription model seems like....Idk a divisive use of resources? Idk if that's the best way to put it, but yeah I do wish they would do more promotional stuff. There are really great producers that use Reason, but it's always a surprise to find them as opposed to just widely known
Jonwayne! love seeing where you’ve taken your art and how you’ve evolved into such a even more humble and well spoken dude. Jamming with you and Edwin back at his parents crib how ever many years ago is still a core memory.
- Elan
...and THIS is Why I DON'T Edit These Episodes on a Computer.
thanks for watching everyone!
Gotta love scissors and tape once you can turn on the normal lights. You just feel the love and dedication that goes into the videos. Well done ;-).
Video editing workflow obviously peaked in 1947, thanks for your dedication to the craft ❤
Congrats for being the first to edit UA-cam videos on a Steenbeck!
Aside from any of this, Jon looks GREAT - you're my hero ever since I heard Bus Stops. Legend.
jon!!!
This was a good video and well thought out opinion piece I rock with 🙌🏾
Ableton Live Lite + cheap 2nd hand laptop / midi keys / speakers or phones = £500. All u need.
Good vid. Would like to have music revenue to spend money on a room, semi-acoustic guitar, drum kit and some percussion.
Appreciate the insights! Dope video.
My dad found a laptop back in the 90ies with an old FL Studio on it. Still use it. Sure sometimes, I want to be like an „MPC type“, but thats perfectly alright.
Hell yeah
I just came across this video, I had no idea you made UA-cam vids, stoked! Your music got me through a really tough time in my life. Thank you Jon
The important is to find the tools you feel comfortable with. Personally I use software and hardware, best of both world!
Nothing wrong with that
Potential VS results. Thanks man. I needed to hear this today. All the best.
As a person that can't play instruments, making music on a computer has actually driven me to want to buy more gear so that I have more control over my sounds.
How does buying the gear give you more control?
@@Sundjipurpose built interfaces! knobs!
As someone with only basic keyboard skills, it is just SO much more fun to jam out on real units, and tweak real knobs on my delays and mixer as I do so.
its also cool having dedicated controls for each unit, rather than switching from channel to channel in a DAW.
Thanks for the video Jon! I recently got in to making beats and your music has always been a huge inspiration!
Miller Puckette, the guy who created Max/MSP and PureData, has noted that making music in a DAW actually involves very little "playing" of music in the traditional sense, and that most of what takes place in that process actually resembles office work. Office work sucks, even if the results turn out cool.
I like that a lot of people can overcome that to create a fun environment for themselves. I did it for years
Also, who do you want to be.
As most things in life, digital tools have made it possible for people to do things on their own. You can do your own taxes, you can check out your own groceries or you can be your own recording engineer,, mastering engineer, tape machine technician…
That’s great. But not everyone wants to.
If I go to the store, I want to be the customer, not an employee. If I make music, I don’t want to take on other jobs.
Love it. Your reasoning boils down to what I assumed it would "Because I wanna" and that's all it ever needs to be. Glad I found your channel.
jon im envious by your ability to take an idea, create amazing melodies and then arrange everything so gritty and raw. talent > tools.
damn this was so fuckin wonderful dude. the one point. "this is not a conversation about art." done
Can you do another episode of Rhythm Roulette? That would be neato
I’d rather they give that slot to someone who doesn’t have a UA-cam channel already
for the luv of music use what you can. for the luv of music find what you luv. this video reminds me why i was drawn to dude's channel - sharp mind, excellent communicator, engaging manner, curious, luvs musical expression. good stuff 👍
DAWless all the way. The reason i don't make music on the computer is because it's too easy. I don't want making music to be easy. I want to fiddle with the sound. And I WANT it to be limited. Like you mention, there's nothing wrong with limitless. But I want to see what I can do with limited. Also, i want the tactile feeling of touching something physical. There's something missing making music with a mouse.
All this "making music on a computer is easy" stuff kind of alienates and cheapens people who really put a lot of work, time, thought, energy and money into learning how to mix basic tracks on computer hardware. I stopped making music period because I got tired of the rest of you telling me how to make it, how to make it authentic and assuming the difficulty level of what I did. I wouldn't even give you people music for free 🤷🏻♂️
TL;DR I fell out of love with music because I fell out of love with the audience and other people's opinions entirely. It became something to keep to myself. There are people who have known me for my entire life and they have no idea I even own musical instruments, or was at any point even remotely interested in music. You get tired of the "so what's your real job?" or "oh, do you play any songs I would know?" or, "It's just stuff you made on a computer is it?" eventually
@@neilpatrickhairless maybe a better way to put it, I want the extra challenge and limitations.
i understand how the consumer has no clue what really goes into music production. that sucks, but kinda par for the course. people doesn't appreciate all the work that goes into road construction, or idk, ceiling fan design. i mean idk what's involved in celling fan design, but it's prob a lot
Kudos for putting effort into a well-balanced, well-thought out and ultimately well-grounded answer, as opposed to just transferring a personal opinion or even worse, paid-for statement. Taking various points of view, even questioning your own conviction, only to come to a conclusion, is a rare virtue nowadays.
I started doing music in 01’
Boy how the times have changed. The shame that came with saying you use Fruity Loops was real
The struggle was real lol
Jon, this video is a work of art and i hope you had as much fun making it as i had watching it.
As someone with major adhd and ocd tism brain, I originally got into hardware to remove distractions. Whenever I make beats on a computer, I end up clicking around on other shit and get sidetracked. I can't pull up videos of big goth anime tiddys on my mpc. I'm locked the fuck in.
Less distractions for sure
"Because it's fun" has become my go-to answer for this as well. I enjoy it more. Everything else is still there to be used when needed
Cheers to that!
Artists can choose a medium. There's truly nothing more correct to use in the world of art if it is what someone can make good stuff on and enjoy. I can love both digital and analog, I can love artists who don't know music theory and musicians who know more than I ever comprehend, and I can love master audio wizards and pure wild expressionists. In fact, I can AND do!
I went to school for game art and had a ton of work with traditional artists and digital artists of all types. In that environment, you don't obsess about pure efficiency; you obsess how to keep your brain loving what you are doing so you can actually finish something! Everyone made cool stuff or had cool ideas, but finishing requires that special sauce of truly loving it
Computers are better. Hardware is more fun.
some people might not agree that hardware is more fun. It depends the person but yeah I agree with this.
more fun is better
I agree fully. Chase fun and creative joy with whatever tools at your disposal.
This was an excellent video, I wish this would've come out years ago then I probably would've saved a lot of money and time!
Amen brother! Man coming in with the fire. I salute you sir.
Thanks for watching
Beautiful mindset into this topic. 10/10 video Jon
Thanks for listening
"Because it's fun for me" should always be the answer for both choices. Great video, refreshingly objective.
Killer video. Fun. This is the answer. I literally laughed when you said it, because it's something I completely relate to and so glad to hear you say it. 🎉
Great talking point and as an "old guy" that started well before the MPC and samplers in general dropped, running through all the studio tools from 80 Series Neves to my now humble PC, old RME FF400 interface and a mix of analog and digital tools so can speak to both. Your pragmatic presentation underlying "just have fun" using w/e it takes for you to make you own music - or capturing the visions for others - and have at er! Circling back to old guy, I'm primarily ITB now simply for convenience, ease of recall and only requiring a small footprint of real estate for my rig. Nothing more to it than that.Cheers, M8.
I think about this a lot. This is a really eloquent take. Thanks.
Thanks for listening
As someone who plays guitar and started out with playing music the very old fashioned way, a DAW was like an alien landscape, with limitless possibilities. Dawless is the ultimate midpoint between an instrument and a Daw. Lots of advantages to playing live instruments and lots of advantages with a Daw. I feel like Dawless is a very intentional choice. It gives a unique set of limitations, and its as tactile and live as an instrument. I can’t afford it at the moment, but I am fascinated and obsessed with following the Dawless movement. It’s like trying to get the core organic humanity of a live performance fused with the digital art palette and all the options that brings. Much respect Jon, and to all those who make music either way. The listener knows and feels when we do it for the love, no matter how we get there. Whether it’s sheet music, a flute, or a sequencer, the listener just hears the music.
It all makes sense. We are all here to have fun, use what gives you more joy and pleasure in the process. I love both hardware and software, Monday I use MPC, Tuesday I use Logic, Wednesday is MC707, Thursday Yamaha PSR SX900 and so on…
that was a really nice explanation of the discussion from your perspective. thanks for sharing! i recently decided to put all of my instruments back in their box and for me it was a fantastic decision. for years i was stuck in the mindset of "a real musician has real instruments" which only lead to me getting more and more instruments which i never used enough to build muscle memory but always feeling like i need to use them because my young self would've killed for my setup. in the end this just meant that i barely turned them on for years and in turn also meant i was just not having fun. when i decided to put them all away i refound much of the magic i felt when starting out but instead of being a broke teenager i now had sick instruments waiting for me to be discovered. my only rule is: i get them out when i want to use them and when i'm done i'll put them back in the box. for everybody in a similar situation, give it chance. i found child like fun in music making again and it's awesome!