Interesting video... I've owned four Commandos, one 750 and three 850s. The 850s all wound up somewhat improved, and I still have the last one, that I bought new in the crate in the 1980s (and paid what at the time seemed like a silly price, yet today seems dirt cheap). It's now got electronic ignition, a single big Mikuni smoothbore, 2-into-1 titanium exhaust, Corbin Gunfighter solo seat, mild rearsets and Akront rims. I ride it about once a week and still love it, and I can still start it at 85 yrs of age! Now, I also had an R90S in the 1980s, and although these bikes CAN be compared, they're not comparable. Norton is like an E-type in its day - fast, good handling, great looks...but requires regular and specialized (for the Isolastic) servicing. The BMW is more like a 300SL - fast, decent handling, comfortable and capable of eating up MANY miles with only reasonable maintenance, reliable to a fault. On a twisty road even an epert on the BMW will be hard pressed to keep the Norton in sight...BUT, at the end of a full day's ride, the BMW will always be ahead and its rider will be relaxed and spry. The Norton man will be smiling, but worn (not worn out, but tired). Still, good video!
My philosophy also, if you are too old to kick start it you are too old to ride it. Of course I cheat and ride the 350 Jawa twin sports more than the nortons:)
Nice video comparison. I have a 1970 Commando and a 1974 BMW R90/6, and agree with much of your conclusion. My Norton is a sporty bike that is fun on the back roads and can handle a bit of touring. My BMW is a great touring bike that can be fun to ride on the back roads. If I could only own one of them, my heart would be with the Norton, but my more practical side would go for the BMW.
Great video, back in 73/74 you could buy nearly two commandos for the price of a 90s. Fortunately I own both example’s today and every time I ride one I prefer it to the other and vice versa .😂
I bought a Harley Superglide to replace my 1970 Norton roadster in 1974. A mate bought the new 900 BM at the same time.The Harley was Cheaper! North QLD Australia.
Lovely bikes, both of them. I’m 69 so I was right in the thick of it in the early/mid 70s. I had 2 750 Commandos before I bought a Ducati 750 Sport in 1974. It seemed everything a Norton was trying to be but with better engineering. Smooth without rubber biscuits then handled and sounded like a dream. Wish I could beam it out to you lads for a go on it. Now, with a left knee replacement and a right ankle replacement I’m good for 45 minutes or so before I cramp up. But for a lad in his 20s! Good Lord, what a hoot!
Really enjoyed this video and gave it the thumbs up! I owned a Commando 850 and now own a close cousin of the R90S, a 1977 R100S. A standard Commando won't ride as well as one that has been modified. I had an 11inch disc and sleeved-down master cylinder, a rod-end head steady and Lansdowne fork dampers. These, together with rear sets and a re-contoured saddle transformed the bike and I could ride it all day in comfort. My R100S as standard had poor brakes and I see that, like mine, your R90S now has a handlebar master cylinder mod, giving much better braking. As standard, the BMW is really comfortable to ride and the performance is almost like a modern bike, and only the clunky gear change lets it down. The BMW definitely has superior build quality and longevity, but the Commando tugs at my heart strings, like a good sporting bike should...
My first road legal bike was a brand new 1973 Norton 850 Commando. In the States back then you could get your full license at 15.5 years old. I survived to tell you at 66 years old . Wish I still had it.
The R90s (in Daytona orange 🤣) was/is a fabulous bike - with that big flywheel it’d purr along at 5k rpm/150 kph all day. Longest unbroken run for me, except for filling, was 19 hours from Sydney to Natimuk near the South Australian border. A daypack on top of the tank bag was perfect torso support. After about 3 hrs the engine became super-pliable and responsive. unstoppable.
Great video Mike. However, both bikes have 'improvements' with and the Norton has an extensive list. It would have been fairer to compare a standard mid-70's Norton with the BMW, but you probably didn't have that option. No doubt the Norton was a great bike having won Bike of the Year several times. The R90s has the same replacement Icon shocks as mine, and you're quite correct in observing the behavior on broken roads. It also has the handlebar m/cyl replacing the cable actuated unit mounted under the tank, which is a definite improvement compared to the wooden-feeling original. Not sure what you meant by 'later gearshift linkage' as on mine the lever is connected directly to the box spline. My later R100 has a rose-jointed linkage, so maybe this is what is fitted. Both iconic bikes of their era, although the BMW was financially out of reach for most at the time. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your productions. All the best from Canada.
I've owned the same 750 Commando since 1978 and it has been a fantastic bike. It's had its ups and downs but to be fair, the downs are mainly due to wear and tear and, back in the day particularly, poor quality spares from the likes of Wassell. These days, everything is immeasurably improved so reliability should never now be an issue. A great road test fellas, I enjoyed listening to your thoughts and experiences.
I enjoyed your video. It took me back when my father was working as a Service Manager in a shop in Canada. The shop had been selling Norton's for a number of years but with the demise of BSA and Triumph in Canada the only motorcycle from Britain the shop was selling was the Norton. I believe in 1976 he was involved in the last shipment of Norton's to be sold from the shop. They were memorable as they were painted in the John Player configuration. They were very nice bikes. The shipment quickly sold. One of the last was sold to a Policeman from the Hamilton area. On his way home from the shop on his first ride he was in an accident. Fortunately, he was not hurt but the poor Norton was a right off. The shop truck went to the accident site and retrieved it. I recall that the motorcycle sat in the shop for more than a year until the insurance company figured out what to do with it. There was only one new Norton left at the shop that could be sold and the same Policeman purchased it less than a week after the accident. It was quite an event for all of us as we knew there would be no more Norton's coming our way to be sold. For many years after this the shop would see Norton's come by for service but has time passed this happened less and less each year. The shop also sold Honda and Suzuki's so motorcycles were still a big part of the business.
This reminds me of my '70s touring bike, but in a very different way. Until recently, I had a '78 Honda Goldwing, but maybe not what you may be picturing. It was stone stock naked with the only accessories being the Hondaline keyed luggage. Where my experience differs from yours is that it was so quiet, you could hear nothing but the wind, and so glass smooth, you can't even tell the engine is running when idling. That might sound great to a lot of people, but I didn't get the beautiful mechanical symphony you guys did, it just felt like I was flying through the air like an upright Superman. It was still a lot of fun, but it just felt like a 2 wheeled convertible.
So glad I found you guys really made me smile and brought back some amazing memories….. I always aspired to Norton commando or a triumph trident or a rocket three, but never got there…. . That said I had a 1969, BSA, a 65, 650 with a full decimetre conversion on it so it was every bit as reliable as the BM W…. I also had a 650 A10 rocket slotted into a wide line Featherbed…. The latter was always breaking down or exploding… whilst I still had the British bikes, I went and bought a BMW 80/7… the very last one produced of the old style 800s, which had an S fairing and looked very much like the R 90 S…. I had tremendous fun on that bike and your discussions about the BMW are exactly true. You could crack them up on wide roads and they’d run at that speed all day….. did a tour down through France on my 800 and it was so happy….. and so was I and my wife coming back with all panniers camping gear and six bottles of wine never a problem…. I still have that are 800 so it needs some love this winter … Looking forward to more from you and yes, I buy a T-shirt my favourite cake anyway … cheers John
Great conversation, I recall an Aussie two wheels Mag story heralding that the Suzuki GS750 was the first ever bike to dethrone the Norton commando on the Great Ocean Road in Victoria. the 'unofficial' true test of tight cornering torquey machines. I owned a GS for years, great bike.... but still own the Commando. long shall she reign. At least in my shed.
The BMW had a cult following in Australia that has never really faded. These bikes were ridden on some truely horrific outback goat tracks and most always got their pilots to their destination. They are very capable in good hands of going anywhere. I’ve owned my boxer for 40 years, it still dose what I ask of it and it’s my one and only. I’ve ridden others and enjoyed them as well, but for a do anything bike, the BMW is in a league of its own, it deserves its place as an icon. The Norton dose look very lovely though.
Sure brings back memories. I bought my first BMW in 1976, a Daytona Orange R90s. So beautiful! I rode it from San Jose to Indiana, then to Wilmington, NC and back to Indiana. Unfortunately a car pulled out in front of me in 1978 and totaled it. I put a lot of miles touring on that R90s!
I bought an R90S second hand in Firenze in about 1990 and rode it back to London in one 1000 mile hit. Sold it a month later, too nice for me and Battersea! 😅 Still riding Bmws though, currently a very tired R100gs, they just keep on going...
Absolutely love your videos featuring BMW. My last street bike was a 75 R90s. Now regret parting with it, as everyone says. Also had an H1 Kawasaki & would not try hustling down those roads on one. Once the brakes faded & you'd got the hinge in middle swinging you'd soon be viewing those hedges from the inside.
Really good analysis of quite different motorcycles. Please keep these relevant and entertaining videos coming. Mike, you have a nice touch in putting together the content - just enough technical to maintain interest levels. Well done the LD Gang!
What a fun video! I had a new '72 Commando 750 that I absolutely loved. It had a nasty habit of eating main bearings and the dealers weren't competent in adjusting the Isolastic mounts. I had to sell it to get a Toyota sled when I married. As soon as we could we got a new '78 R100S and still have it. I've always said the ideal bike for me would have been a Commando reengineered by Honda for maintainability and built by BMW. Thanks for the show, gents.
Great comparison, I owned two Commandos....a 750 and an 850, both superb bikes though often overlooked by the Triumph riders of the day. Both would leave a 650 or 750 Bonnie behind and the isolastic frame gave better handling and less vibration IMO. I've also owned a multitude of BMWs, but never an R90S.....currently I have a 1978 R100RS which I ride without its cumbersome and heavy fairing. It puts out 70bhp and the performance is almost identical to an R90S, it requires 98 octane fuel and I use a lead additive too. Wish I'd never sold my Commando 850ES, it was a very capable bike and the best of all the British parallel twins IMO.
I had a '76 T140v and 2 of my mates had Commando 850s back in the day - all new and stock. We rode a lot together, so I'd love to see you blokes do a comparison. Would bring back some fond memories I'm sure.
@@LemonDrizzleGang Yes, I did see that one Mike. Very tasty indeed with all those mods. It was suggested to me that I ought to replace the Amals with Mikunis, I should have listened as I had no end of problems with the 1 into 2 cabling system.
Great video and soundtrack chaps, love that horizon v apex comparison. With a name like ‘Norton Commando’ there’s no doubting which gets my vote! I’d love to have such a hooligan in my bike shed. Don’t get me wrong, the BMW is a real looker, and looking better as the years go by but man, just look at that Norton, and what a gorgeous noise it makes. Has to be said though, it’s taken a lot of mods and tweaks to get it that good. Hats off to Dave👍
The Norton sounds just glorious, so much nicer than the BMW. However the BMW would undoubtedly be the more practical and reliable machine. Horses for courses. Love the channel, keep them coming 👍
I dont remember seeing many BMW's in the mid 70's when i was 16/17 but i remember the 850 Commamdo and T160 coming out and drooling over them. That model of Commando is still my dream bike.
Right! You've got my inspired to do some more tweaking on my '74 850 Commando! Just had it out on a 200 miler day before yesterday. Not as nice a scenery as you've got, but it will do (Sea to Sky highway of British Colombia Canada).
Wonderful video, great comparisons. I've owned both and the rides you've described is spot on. I'm not considered middle aged any longer (70) but do still ride a 1977 R100/7 plus a more modern oilhead Beemer. I'd buy a cup and a t-shirt if available. Cheers!
I have ridden both but those were flogged-out crap, those were dreams compared to the ones I rode. These days my 3c Laverda is in a similar state, bucket loads of time and cash has that effect. Love your work blokes.
You guys summed-it-up for me with one-word : Engaging . I'm a bit older than most of you , grew-up with all the bikes that are now classics , many now unaffordable . I sold my last faster-bike because it was boring (k75s BMW) It would do 120mph all-day , corner-well, brake-well , silky-smooth and fast-acceleration but I may as-well have taken-up Golf . My XV1000 TR1 on the other-hand (quite-modified and doesn't look like a TR1) is a fire-breathing-beast that requires total-commitment and dares-you to push those-corners . You know you are alive when you ride it . This is what bikes Are for me . I do have my 'Old-Man-Bike' (a kawasaki W650) and it is louder than stock , very-pretty and 100-percent-reliable so I have the-best of both-worlds in a way . Dave nz
After joining the US Navy, I bought my first motorcycle...a 1973 Norton 850 Commando...black with gold pinstripes and got caught up in the cafe racing scene in the San Francisco Bay area. A couple years later, I bought a new 1974 Ducati 750 Sport. One of the guys on another ship bought an R90S and we had a good time exploring the roads in the area. Both bikes were sold by the time I got married and started a family. A couple years ago I bought a 1975 R90S and ended up going through the entire bike mechanically. I'm really enjoying the bike, and am amazed at its reliability once things are sorted, as well as the ability to take it on long distance rides.
Thanks for this video. I've owned my MKIII Roadster for nearly 30 years, and I love it. R90S is the only BMW i'd like to own, maybe except from the BMW GS1150Adventure (in silver, of course). As for a classic, the Norton Commando is rare and more of a sportsbike then the BMW. I'll make this short, I'm still in love with my Commando 🙂
Another wonderful video from your excellent channel; a lovely mix of action and knowledgeable discussion, keep ‘um comin’ LD Gang. I’m 62 and lusted after Commandos in my youth but by the time I was old enough I ended up being taken in by the Japanese marketing machine and rode a CX500 before handing up my boots. 42 yrs later, retirement has given me the time to scratch that inevitable itch and as much as I crave a Commando I couldn’t neither safely store or maintain it (for now at least) and bought what many tout as the closest you can get from a newly made motorcycle; including 360 crank and even bias ply tires!! Yep, you guessed it, a Kawasaki W800 Cafe. Have any of the Gang ridden one; thoughts? Possible contender for a future video? Anyway, keep up the good work and I look forward to the next one.
Great video! I love the bikes you guys do articles on. I own/owned bikes like these. I have rode many of the bikes you guys review. Your channel has become my favorite channel. Please keep up doing videos like these. My main bikes are a 650 Bonneville and an 1100 BMW Oil Head.
Brilliant vid Mike! Very poignant as it reminds me of when I used to commute from Glos to Preston (!!!) on my ‘79 R100RT and would often meet a guy on his Commando riding up the M5/M6. Motorways were pretty deserted that early back then and we used to race each other up the motorway (legal of course officer😊 ) and I was always surprised just how similar in performance his 850 and my R100 were. I liked sitting behind him just for the glorious sound from those pea shooter pipes. You only needed a Jota and Ducati 860 gts to round off the sound tracks😀 R90 frame was a little bit elastic, like the R100’s and they really needed a fork brace in addition to the friction steering damper. My R100 used to get into terrible tank slappers too. “They all do that sir😂” Not the best things handling wise but great mile munchers. They have a healthy appetite for spark plugs from what I remember of mine. If mine ever dropped out of tune or started running roughly it was usually a plug or a cv carb diaphragm needed replacing.
As discussed, Commando was supposed to be sort of a stop gap using as little investment in new tooling as possible, until a more modern engine miraculously appeared (Cosworth Ha ha) Its engine was stretched beyond original design limits. The Bmw (and the Japs) represented what could be achieved with much younger tooling, design and attitude to investment. Norton and diligent owners were lucky that this bike rose above its origins in it's characterful pleasing dynamics almost as if it said, 'lm going to fight to the death' and in that, is aptly named.
The Commando was a terrific bike out of the box.Everybody said that its frame would be rubbish after the Featherbed, but they were wrong. For a $10 upgrade the isolastic mountings were unbelievably good. Okay, they masked the problem rather than eliminating it but to redesign the crankcases to take ballancer shafts was a no-no when Norton Villiers had no money for radical development. The Combat engine was a bit of a bomb with 10:1 pistons and a radical cam but the 850 was soft tuned and a reliable unit. The last was probably the best.
Great video. Love both bikes. The 90S has a different fork set up to standard BMs, they were slightly stiffer using a different valving set up. I have converted my RS to the same spec and its a bitter harsher on bumpy roads but handles nicely.
I have bad knees from running 17 marathons and at least 100 other races over 30km (plus all the training miles to get to the starting lines). Yet I have no problem whatsoever starting my 750 Commando. It's really down to technique -- and having an RGM Norton aftermarket kickstart lever, which adds about an inch in length and a fair bit of rigidity, so you get just a little more leverage. With a good Tri-Spark ignition system in it, mine starts on the first small kick every time when warm. When stone cold, it takes one slow press down through the kicking motion to get a full charge of fuel/air into the intake runners, at which point, it'll go over on the next downward stroke.
Hi guys great video as always, I would be interested in one of your T shirts. I will take a picture of me wearing it at Ayers Rock next year, part of my 60th birthday plans....a plan is one thing, turning it into reality may be quite another. Keep up the great work by the way the Commando is an exact replica of my brothers from the 1970's. OH.... happy days! Cheers Lester. Gold coast QLD.
I had a 1970 BSA Lightning and after the engine seized after 3000 miles I bought a 1973 Triumph Tiger which gave me a lot of headaches, too. Then I bought a 2nd hand BMW R75/6 with 40.000 km on the clock and never a problem. Good handling, too. Careful in the curves because of the tits of the Gummikuh.
It’s nice to see / hear what can be done with some sympathetic tuning mods, carried out by someone who clearly knows what he’s doing, to make that Norton into something very special. And clearly better than the day it was new, without losing the classic appeal of an old bike……..well done Sir………
I much preferred my Dunstall Atlas to the Commando. I need spend many hours settling it up. The Norton 650ss I owned before it was also a great bike. It just needed some tinkering to set it up.
Good comparison i owned 73 BMW motorcycle 750 long time ago very nice bike different feeling and torque engine in future i like to own 850 Norton now i own bmw k and Rt and Kawasaki concous
I was 5ft 6ins, now nearing 75 I've shrunk a bit, weigh 10st 7lbs, complete right knee replacement years ago and hip damage so forced to kick with my left leg. My 850 that's in much the same tune as your test bike though it starts very easily. I put it down to the Tri Spark ignition and Jim Schmitt's softest cam, radiused BSA type followers and pushrod kit. The Tri Spark virtually eliminates kick back and the Jim Schmitt cam kit significantly reduces valve gear friction. Pleased you liked the head steady, kick start and 13mm master cylinder. Dave T.
Thanks Dave, yes I have a Trispark in my Rocket 3 and a Pazon digital ignition in my T140, but never have kickbacks on the commando with the analogue Pazon? love Jim Schmidt's stuff but very pricey with import duties this side of the pond. I've just fitted a one piece rear axle from Don Pender and cost as much again in postage!
very interesting comparison guys. Talking about Japanese - you should compare Kawasaki W1 with Beeza A10 ;) But more about today's comparison - bring the Yam XS2 into the equation
Did a ABM handle bar conversion on my thruxton transformed the bike for me as needed a hip replacement keep the conversion after new hip as the bike was so much more rideable
I think it’s interesting that back in 1975 these bikes were contemporary models, available to the relatively wealthy or committed. But if you do put yourself back then, these bikes didn’t have the romance or character that we seem to ascribe to classics now. When I think about old bikes I tend to want something that gives me a feeling of the past, my own history or bikes I enjoyed, in other words ‘ rose coloured glasses’. Yet, at the time they were new these bikes had none of this classic history or feelings or emotional experience we feel now. I thought about this a couple of years ago and decided that I did like the BMW twins, the old ones I used to have were new in their day, so I thought well I liked them then perhaps I’ll like a new one. So R1200R found it’s way to me. It was a great bike, a bit too too heavy, top heavy and tall, but very well made and it did have that BMW dna. But ultimately it was just not as charming as those old bikes from the seventies. It was better, dynamically, performance, reliability, etc, etc, in every way but it just didn’t do it for me. So while we can’t judge the newer bikes against the old on some levels, on a purely visceral level the old bikes seem to hold sway. And so here we are loving these old things.
Nice ride, great bikes. I had a 74 Commmando 850, wonderful punchy engine fun to ride. Sold it for a Guzzi Le Mans mk1. Much better bike but wish I stilll had the Norton. Cheers.
Loved this, guys. Like you, I grew up in the ‘70s and these two bikes were the poster bikes at the time I was on my FS1-E. Used to joke with my mates that BM riders were all middle-aged pipe smokers. Roll on fifty years and I am now enjoying my 1973 R50/5. I don’t smoke a pipe though…Oh, and by the way do you have the T shirts in a 40” chest? 😉
Great video. Had a ride on the BM and the Comando back in the 70s. Both good bikes with different characters but similar perfomance. One big difference though was the clunk with every gear change on the BM. Also went to the IOM back in the 70s on a 750 Honda and my mate on a 750 Comando. Both went well but the Honda so much more impressive with all the modern tech.
As we get older and still love our Nortons, some wonder how do I start my 750/850 with bad knees? Put on a CNW belt drive/electric Start kit. The massively lighted clutch basket will save the gearbox and improve shifting and the push button Start makes the starting feel like a modern bike.
Loved the video. I tested both bikes when new when I wrote a weekly motorbike column for the Cheshire Observer newspaper in Chester in the 1970s. The BMW was superb but the Norton wasn’t one of their best. I’ve since ridden a well sorted Commando and it was miles better. I was pleased to hear you reference Peter Egan; we’ve been pen pals for a few years. Incidentally, he now rides a Himalayan and loves it. Keep up the good work!
I’ll tell Peter. We always correspond around Thanksgiving, so your timing is perfect. He truly was the best writer on motorcycles although I do have a soft spot for our own Dave Minton. I had the privilege of meeting him and talking about our shared love of Morinis and Laverdas. A man of taste!
I certainly have and I think that they capture the essence of these fantastic bikes. I used to sell Laverdas when I worked for Tom Loughridge in Heswall and before that time Tom’s own 750SF was one of the first bikes that I road tested for The Cheshire Observer, probably in 1974. As for Morinis, I own a 1975 3 1/2 drum braked Strada which I love riding. It’s a bit tatty but goes very well. There’s something about 70’s bikes (especially from Italy) isn’t there?
In those days that BMW was unaffordable to the majority of motorcyclists, not desirable either to youngsters like I was. Now more mature I like it a lot.
Big bro owned an R100S and I rode it quite a bit. I can never get used to the cylinders sticking out the side. The best touring bike. I'll take one of each please.
Somewhere I have a copy of Bike magazine from around 1975 where they carried out a comparison test of both these bikes. I can't remember what the outcome was but both went from 0-60 in 4.9 seconds and both had 60 bhp. Nice review, but I think I'd have to choose the Commando simply because of the effect it had, emotionally, on the 18 year old me.
The answer was fairly obvious: Honda: Introduces CB750 in 1969. BSA: Has ideas, no money to implement. Triumph: Has ideas, a bit more money, still punts. (Later version of Trident is cool, but day-late/dollar-short.) Norton: ...* Harley-Davidson: ...** BMW: Okay, guys, we're sorta stuck with the boxer mill, but let's massage this thing to the max...we're going café, our way! (Having Bob Lutz on-board helped.) (*Norton's problem, to me, stemmed from the attitude that punching the engine out 100cc, moving the shifter from left-to-right - never mind an extra gear - and adding electric start, was novel, nifty, and forward-thinking...in 1975/6. That said, the Commano has *always* been cool. I also had a sick crush on the one model they had in nearly all the print ads.) (**Yes, the Motor Company lived on, because 'Murica. And lobbying for tarriffs.)
With the BMW you were pretty sure that no matter where you went - no matter how long or how fast you travelled - you were pretty sure that you got home. With the Norton, well .........
A friend owned a commando at the same time l owned a BMW R100RS....l would put fuel in it and ride . He was always' fiddling' with the Norton. The Norton did sound great but had reliability issues the Beemer didn't have...now I'm older I've always fancied a 90S...especially the Orange/cream one featured to finish my motorcycle journey that began in 1962....Both great bikes, however l would say the Norton demands more rider input in terms of maintenance...
My motorcycle journey started in '61 on a Cushman, I've had a love affair with Nortons since 1970, and they really do need to be properly set up, never had one let me down. I have that '76 Daytona Orange R90S... didn't really realize how special it was when I obtained it 30 some years ago...cheers
I owned an 850 Commando 1974.My friend had a BMW 90 S.The Beemer was a faster bike hands down and cornered surprisingly well. The Norton connected me to the road more then the BMW. Both great bikes .Another friend had a 850 Commando that he had uped the compression to 10 to 1 and valve springs and cam. That was one hot bike .Although he never got together for a race WITH THE R90 IMHO they would have been at least equal.His Norton was a beast.Wish I had both in my stable.
@@royalblue2043 We were fortunate to have been able to enjoy those great bikes, of the many hundreds of motorcycle makes and models manufactured over the decades, these were among the greatest...imho
@@royalblue2043BMW 90/s 1/4 mile time clocked at 13.5 secs. Commando (not the Combat) clocked at 12.5 secs. I'm not sure about parameters. I've read Commando times as low as 12.39 and as high as 13.18. Have not found an 90/s under 13.5 secs. For what it's worth if anything. Strange that the panel said there was no difference in quickness. Not sure about their parameters either.
Hi Guys, Loved the video, being the owner of both bikes. Where would the BSA A10 650 RGS fit in to this mix?? I'm increasingly fascinated with the Brit twins after collecting the early BMW's performance /2 R 50s and R69s. Not stogy but not Norton. Keep up the good work . Thanks for sharing your thoughts and comradery!! Like the T shirts!!
In Naples Florida there is a company that makes Featherbed frames as well as alloy tanks and other parts alloy. Featherbed frame are so superior and a better handling
I have always been of the opinion that the BMW R100S is one of the most beautiful motorcycles eve made. I own the 1981 RS model and still ride it a lot.
I owned both 750 and 850 Commandos and R90 and R100 (naked and RS) BMWs. The latter were 83, so a little different. Both marques are superb. Handling and throttle response is similar. The BM feels bulkier but loses that on the road. The 90s was the perkiest motor of the BMs. Handling was impeccable, Norton maybe a bit quicker on the turn-in. Fuel consumption basically the same for all. Brakes on the Norton and the standard R90s are dreadful, wooden and lack power. Replacing the master cylinder would be wise. The R100s had the later Brembo brakes which were really good, a vast improvement. Back brakes on the Nortons were the drum, which was excellent, not as good on the 9Os and dismal on the 100s. Maintenance chores are a bit fiddlier on the Norton, especially the original isolastics - upgrade to Mk3 verniers and head steady. Getting at the Norton oil filter is a PITA. Of course the Nortons were 4-speed and the BMs 5 but that was pretty irrelevant in driving. The Norton shift, however, was much nicer. Nortons had Amals and BMs had Bings...there is nothing like an Amal for throttle response, it's instant. Amazing. However, on long motorway blasts the Bings seemed more relaxing. In a way it's unfortunate that a 750 Combat Commando wasn't assessed; apart from its propensity to launch the unwary kick-starter into the air, that motor was a BEAST. While here, my BMs were electric start and Nortons kick; the kick was better, no battery issues and in any case a well-fettled Commando would always start first kick. The standard lever, however, is a thing from hell. Replace it. Anyway, just buy one of any of these, you won't be disappointed.
Stews brother has a really tasty RD350lc mars bar …… yes we are working on him to test it Both Stew and I production raced 350 elsies back in the early 80s
1977 Bike magazine tested the Le Mans mk1, rode it down to the Sth of France. On arriving back at Calais for the ferry the rider thought the engine was making some bad noises but on looking round a Commando had pulled up next to him. The Guzzi was quietly ticking over like it had just been to the shops.
In 1986, I was offered a red 1976 BMW R90S for £350 by a workmate, unfortunately for me I turned it down, I classed BMW's as motorcycles for old men and I was only 29 years old at that time. As you will know the R90S is now very collectable and worth a lot of money. The guy also had a blue 1975 DKW W2000 Wankel with seized rotor tips, he wanted £350 for it too, the rotary was an unknown entity to me, so I passed on that one too. With hindsight I should have taken them both off his hands, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
För future shootouts, I would suggest a Guzzi Le Mans 1, Laverda Jota besudes the Z1 and CB750 you allready mentioned. Hade a R100CS (same looks as R90S) a few years back and in motorway speed my knees got cought by The wind and in the long run It was very disturbing... (no South of france for me😂).
@@LemonDrizzleGang It was more a wish list then anything else. In sweden I probably could source the bikes, but in England no.. Keep up the good work guys!! 🙏🙏
@@LemonDrizzleGang 🤣🤣🤣 I am in sweden, but mostra of the time in Sicilly, so if you feel like ridning when the season is too hostile in Wales /England you are welcome. 👍👍
I have an very sweet original 71 cb750 in Herefordshire that you guys are welcome to have a go on. Shes sitting at about 70,000 on the original motor so I don’t go too mad on it now but it’s still in regular use.
Bmw's were pretty reliable in those days! Preferred my 750 roadster and later T150v for fun.now,many years later have a mk3 850 which starts on the button each time,and my zzr14 never fails! I also dont need to start braking half a mile in advance! Memory tells me the twin leading shoe was better on 750 than disc on 850
I really enjoy you work. I have an idea...I'm sure your aware that Hitchcock motorcycles do a 850cc conversion for the Interceptor & Continental...its meant to be a huge improvement. I would be interested if you could do a side by side road test / comparison between a 850 Norton Commando and a 850 Royal Enfield....If the 850 conversion is so good why don't Royal Enfield make an 850 variant??!!
@@LemonDrizzleGang 14mm, gives a better feel than the 15mm used on some of the earlier bar mount Airheads. Later Brembos would be better still of course!
For someone getting back into riding after 10 years moving to Italy looking at a classic 750- Laverda 750 vs Norton 750. Norton is lighter and more nimble. Laverda is heavier but more comfortable. Are parts more available for the Norton? Some have said Laverda would need less work- but may have less parts. What would you recommend for the one bike to get?
I will get Dave to respond but I can definitely say the Norton is the sportier bike I used to have an SF2 750 and it seemed a lot heavier than the Norton I wouldn’t take on the Norton unless you are handy with spanners.
@@LemonDrizzleGang I'd tend to agree with Mike. I'd love a 750 Laverda, still one of my bucket list bikes. About the same power as a Commando and definitely requires less spannering (comparing two bikes with equal levels of care and attention). They're also pretty smooth considering they're a solidly mounted parallel twin. The Norton is quicker off the line, mostly due to being a lot lighter (unless you go for an electric start Mk3 Commando which is only around 7kg lighter). Parts supply is amazingly good for the Norton, but chances are you'll need more of them! Laverda stuff is definitely more expensive and harder to get with only a few suppliers around the globe, but you CAN get most stuff. In Italy a commando will be more expensive for a similar standard bike, usually a few Laverdas on the market. Personally I'd at least try to cadge a ride on both of them, as riding anything this old is a heart over head decision, but if asked to choose, in your position I'd go for the Laverda IF I was in Italy and/or I wasn't so handy with the spanners? Also, either bike, get the best one you can afford!!
Much appreciated for the kind comments. For some other context I last rode a 1980 Ducati Pantah in great condition that was great to ride. Got spoilt with electric start but comfy. I was also thinking of a smaller displacement like a single cylinder 350 Desmo or scrambler as I am around 5 6’ and a smaller bike may be easier. Seen many scramblers from 250, 350 to the 450 available. 🤔 Or an older Triumph… these are all kick start area- but the 70s bikes have something unique!
Hey Guys, Great video! I am looking at a few different Nortons this week hopeing to buy one. 71 750 fastback, 73 850, and a 75 850. I owned a fastback back in the 70's, so I am thinking one of the two 850's. What year is the Red Norton in this Video? Great sounding bike! Thanks
Thanks Jack. It's a '73 Mk1 850, but as I say in the vid, the 850 Mk1 & Mk2 are very similar, that's 73 and 74. The Mk2 would be the pick though. The 75 electric start is stronger, but heavier. With a few changes mostly for the electric start.
Thanks Dave, I was having trouble with the video not starting at the beginning so I didn’t hear the description of the bikes. I am curious as to why you prefer the 74 over the 73. Anything in particular before I pull the pin on this 73 I’m looking at? Cheers
Yes, correct, electric start (Mk3) is 1975@@jackcrognale417 . Only reason I'd prefer a Mk2 over a Mk1 is they used a better cylinder head design (RH10) on the Mk2 with smaller ports compared to the RH4 head on the Mk1. This gives better midrange, no loss of top end and less prone to cracks. However I wouldn't let that put me off a nice Mk1 though, (it didn't put me off), go for it! Access Norton is the best forum btw, lots of knowledge there.
Interesting video... I've owned four Commandos, one 750 and three 850s. The 850s all wound up somewhat improved, and I still have the last one, that I bought new in the crate in the 1980s (and paid what at the time seemed like a silly price, yet today seems dirt cheap). It's now got electronic ignition, a single big Mikuni smoothbore, 2-into-1 titanium exhaust, Corbin Gunfighter solo seat, mild rearsets and Akront rims. I ride it about once a week and still love it, and I can still start it at 85 yrs of age! Now, I also had an R90S in the 1980s, and although these bikes CAN be compared, they're not comparable. Norton is like an E-type in its day - fast, good handling, great looks...but requires regular and specialized (for the Isolastic) servicing. The BMW is more like a 300SL - fast, decent handling, comfortable and capable of eating up MANY miles with only reasonable maintenance, reliable to a fault. On a twisty road even an epert on the BMW will be hard pressed to keep the Norton in sight...BUT, at the end of a full day's ride, the BMW will always be ahead and its rider will be relaxed and spry. The Norton man will be smiling, but worn (not worn out, but tired). Still, good video!
Well-said ! from another old-guy still-riding on the opposite-side of the world . Dave nz
My philosophy also, if you are too old to kick start it you are too old to ride it. Of course I cheat and ride the 350 Jawa twin sports more than the nortons:)
Yes! Nonsense comparison. Well said.
Nice video comparison. I have a 1970 Commando and a 1974 BMW R90/6, and agree with much of your conclusion. My Norton is a sporty bike that is fun on the back roads and can handle a bit of touring. My BMW is a great touring bike that can be fun to ride on the back roads. If I could only own one of them, my heart would be with the Norton, but my more practical side would go for the BMW.
Great video, back in 73/74 you could buy nearly two commandos for the price of a 90s.
Fortunately I own both example’s today and every time I ride one I prefer it to the other and vice versa .😂
In France the 90S is a little cheaper than a 850 Commando.
I bought a Harley Superglide to replace my 1970 Norton roadster in 1974. A mate bought the new 900 BM at the same time.The Harley was Cheaper! North QLD Australia.
Lovely bikes, both of them. I’m 69 so I was right in the thick of it in the early/mid 70s. I had 2 750 Commandos before I bought a Ducati 750 Sport in 1974. It seemed everything a Norton was trying to be but with better engineering. Smooth without rubber biscuits then handled and sounded like a dream. Wish I could beam it out to you lads for a go on it. Now, with a left knee replacement and a right ankle replacement I’m good for 45 minutes or so before I cramp up. But for a lad in his 20s! Good Lord, what a hoot!
Really enjoyed this video and gave it the thumbs up! I owned a Commando 850 and now own a close cousin of the R90S, a 1977 R100S. A standard Commando won't ride as well as one that has been modified. I had an 11inch disc and sleeved-down master cylinder, a rod-end head steady and Lansdowne fork dampers. These, together with rear sets and a re-contoured saddle transformed the bike and I could ride it all day in comfort. My R100S as standard had poor brakes and I see that, like mine, your R90S now has a handlebar master cylinder mod, giving much better braking. As standard, the BMW is really comfortable to ride and the performance is almost like a modern bike, and only the clunky gear change lets it down. The BMW definitely has superior build quality and longevity, but the Commando tugs at my heart strings, like a good sporting bike should...
Good video guys :)
Thank you
Fabulous, well informed discussion...100% knowledge, zero % egos. Thankyou gentlemen.
Thank you very kind comments
My first road legal bike was a brand new 1973 Norton 850 Commando. In the States back then you could get your full license at 15.5 years old. I survived to tell you at 66 years old . Wish I still had it.
The R90s (in Daytona orange 🤣) was/is a fabulous bike - with that big flywheel it’d purr along at 5k rpm/150 kph all day. Longest unbroken run for me, except for filling, was 19 hours from Sydney to Natimuk near the South Australian border. A daypack on top of the tank bag was perfect torso support. After about 3 hrs the engine became super-pliable and responsive. unstoppable.
I'd love the BMW just for the simplicity and ease of it. Plus it's just damn fun.
Great video Mike. However, both bikes have 'improvements' with and the Norton has an extensive list. It would have been fairer to compare a standard mid-70's Norton with the BMW, but you probably didn't have that option. No doubt the Norton was a great bike having won Bike of the Year several times. The R90s has the same replacement Icon shocks as mine, and you're quite correct in observing the behavior on broken roads. It also has the handlebar m/cyl replacing the cable actuated unit mounted under the tank, which is a definite improvement compared to the wooden-feeling original. Not sure what you meant by 'later gearshift linkage' as on mine the lever is connected directly to the box spline. My later R100 has a rose-jointed linkage, so maybe this is what is fitted. Both iconic bikes of their era, although the BMW was financially out of reach for most at the time. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your productions. All the best from Canada.
I've owned the same 750 Commando since 1978 and it has been a fantastic bike. It's had its ups and downs but to be fair, the downs are mainly due to wear and tear and, back in the day particularly, poor quality spares from the likes of Wassell. These days, everything is immeasurably improved so reliability should never now be an issue. A great road test fellas, I enjoyed listening to your thoughts and experiences.
Thanks for this video. I owned a 73 Norton 850 and my father owned a r90s . He sent the R90s engine to Reg Pridmore for a monster of an engine build.
I enjoyed your video. It took me back when my father was working as a Service Manager in a shop in Canada. The shop had been selling Norton's for a number of years but with the demise of BSA and Triumph in Canada the only motorcycle from Britain the shop was selling was the Norton. I believe in 1976 he was involved in the last shipment of Norton's to be sold from the shop. They were memorable as they were painted in the John Player configuration. They were very nice bikes. The shipment quickly sold. One of the last was sold to a Policeman from the Hamilton area. On his way home from the shop on his first ride he was in an accident. Fortunately, he was not hurt but the poor Norton was a right off. The shop truck went to the accident site and retrieved it. I recall that the motorcycle sat in the shop for more than a year until the insurance company figured out what to do with it. There was only one new Norton left at the shop that could be sold and the same Policeman purchased it less than a week after the accident. It was quite an event for all of us as we knew there would be no more Norton's coming our way to be sold. For many years after this the shop would see Norton's come by for service but has time passed this happened less and less each year. The shop also sold Honda and Suzuki's so motorcycles were still a big part of the business.
This reminds me of my '70s touring bike, but in a very different way. Until recently, I had a '78 Honda Goldwing, but maybe not what you may be picturing. It was stone stock naked with the only accessories being the Hondaline keyed luggage. Where my experience differs from yours is that it was so quiet, you could hear nothing but the wind, and so glass smooth, you can't even tell the engine is running when idling. That might sound great to a lot of people, but I didn't get the beautiful mechanical symphony you guys did, it just felt like I was flying through the air like an upright Superman. It was still a lot of fun, but it just felt like a 2 wheeled convertible.
So glad I found you guys really made me smile and brought back some amazing memories….. I always aspired to Norton commando or a triumph trident or a rocket three, but never got there…. . That said I had a 1969, BSA, a 65, 650 with a full decimetre conversion on it so it was every bit as reliable as the BM W…. I also had a 650 A10 rocket slotted into a wide line Featherbed…. The latter was always breaking down or exploding… whilst I still had the British bikes, I went and bought a BMW 80/7… the very last one produced of the old style 800s, which had an S fairing and looked very much like the R 90 S…. I had tremendous fun on that bike and your discussions about the BMW are exactly true. You could crack them up on wide roads and they’d run at that speed all day….. did a tour down through France on my 800 and it was so happy….. and so was I and my wife coming back with all panniers camping gear and six bottles of wine never a problem….
I still have that are 800 so it needs some love this winter …
Looking forward to more from you and yes, I buy a T-shirt my favourite cake anyway … cheers John
The Norton gets my vote everything,a true classic.Excellent video look forward to the next one.
Great conversation, I recall an Aussie two wheels Mag story heralding that the Suzuki GS750 was the first ever bike to dethrone the Norton commando on the Great Ocean Road in Victoria. the 'unofficial' true test of tight cornering torquey machines. I owned a GS for years, great bike.... but still own the Commando. long shall she reign. At least in my shed.
I have done the GOR many times as I used to live in Adelaide
The BMW had a cult following in Australia that has never really faded. These bikes were ridden on some truely horrific outback goat tracks and most always got their pilots to their destination. They are very capable in good hands of going anywhere. I’ve owned my boxer for 40 years, it still dose what I ask of it and it’s my one and only. I’ve ridden others and enjoyed them as well, but for a do anything bike, the BMW is in a league of its own, it deserves its place as an icon.
The Norton dose look very lovely though.
I had a GS when I lived in Australia I know those goat tracks very well
I also used to work at Moomba in the red center
If i was to choose between the two of them, i couldn't because i just love them both, thanks for the great video 🍀
Sure brings back memories. I bought my first BMW in 1976, a Daytona Orange R90s. So beautiful! I rode it from San Jose to Indiana, then to Wilmington, NC and back to Indiana. Unfortunately a car pulled out in front of me in 1978 and totaled it. I put a lot of miles touring on that R90s!
I bought an R90S second hand in Firenze in about 1990 and rode it back to London in one 1000 mile hit. Sold it a month later, too nice for me and Battersea! 😅
Still riding Bmws though, currently a very tired R100gs, they just keep on going...
Absolutely love your videos featuring BMW. My last street bike was a 75 R90s. Now regret parting with it, as everyone says. Also had an H1 Kawasaki & would not try hustling down those roads on one. Once the brakes faded & you'd got the hinge in middle swinging you'd soon be viewing those hedges from the inside.
Really good analysis of quite different motorcycles.
Please keep these relevant and entertaining videos coming.
Mike, you have a nice touch in putting together the content - just enough technical to maintain interest levels. Well done the LD Gang!
Thank you really appreciate your kind words
What a fun video! I had a new '72 Commando 750 that I absolutely loved. It had a nasty habit of eating main bearings and the dealers weren't competent in adjusting the Isolastic mounts. I had to sell it to get a Toyota sled when I married. As soon as we could we got a new '78 R100S and still have it. I've always said the ideal bike for me would have been a Commando reengineered by Honda for maintainability and built by BMW. Thanks for the show, gents.
You mean the now-famous inherently TERRIFYINGLY DANGEROUS Isolastic mounts - which almost killed me!
Great comparison, I owned two Commandos....a 750 and an 850, both superb bikes though often overlooked by the Triumph riders of the day. Both would leave a 650 or 750 Bonnie behind and the isolastic frame gave better handling and less vibration IMO. I've also owned a multitude of BMWs, but never an R90S.....currently I have a 1978 R100RS which I ride without its cumbersome and heavy fairing. It puts out 70bhp and the performance is almost identical to an R90S, it requires 98 octane fuel and I use a lead additive too. Wish I'd never sold my Commando 850ES, it was a very capable bike and the best of all the British parallel twins IMO.
The RS fairing lets you ride 100 MPH for hours on end, completely effortless, since there's no wind load on your body.
I had a '76 T140v and 2 of my mates had Commando 850s back in the day - all new and stock. We rode a lot together, so I'd love to see you blokes do a comparison. Would bring back some fond memories I'm sure.
Thanks its in the works
Have you seen our T140 review ?
@@LemonDrizzleGang Yes, I did see that one Mike. Very tasty indeed with all those mods. It was suggested to me that I ought to replace the Amals with Mikunis, I should have listened as I had no end of problems with the 1 into 2 cabling system.
Great video and soundtrack chaps, love that horizon v apex comparison. With a name like ‘Norton Commando’ there’s no doubting which gets my vote! I’d love to have such a hooligan in my bike shed. Don’t get me wrong, the BMW is a real looker, and looking better as the years go by but man, just look at that Norton, and what a gorgeous noise it makes. Has to be said though, it’s taken a lot of mods and tweaks to get it that good. Hats off to Dave👍
The Norton sounds just glorious, so much nicer than the BMW. However the BMW would undoubtedly be the more practical and reliable machine. Horses for courses. Love the channel, keep them coming 👍
I dont remember seeing many BMW's in the mid 70's when i was 16/17 but i remember the 850 Commamdo and T160 coming out and drooling over them.
That model of Commando is still my dream bike.
Right! You've got my inspired to do some more tweaking on my '74 850 Commando! Just had it out on a 200 miler day before yesterday. Not as nice a scenery as you've got, but it will do (Sea to Sky highway of British Colombia Canada).
Wonderful video, great comparisons. I've owned both and the rides you've described is spot on. I'm not considered middle aged any longer (70) but do still ride a 1977 R100/7 plus a more modern oilhead Beemer. I'd buy a cup and a t-shirt if available. Cheers!
I have a 1077 r100/7 also. I have had it for 42 years. Will never let it go. 67 and hope to keep going for years yet.
The glowing praise for the Norton is that valid with the amount of mods to the handling in the spec panel.
I can only comment on the bike I am riding 👍
I still ride my 68 Bonnie. Wouldn't trade it for the world. Good stuff.
Have you seen our T120 review its the firs video we did
Peter Egan wrote some great stuff including his book, "Leanings" a fantastic read. 😎👍
Awesome guy's cracking bike's cheers 👍🏻
Looking good Dave and bro, stay safe!
Terrific stuff all 'round especially the opening music. Well done chaps. Cheers
+1 on the music, very appropriate!
Great video! I would absolutely order an LDG t-shirt! The mugs are lovely too :)
Thank's guys; that was a really good educational video. I would have loved to have ridden that Norton!! Have a great day mates!! Illinois, USA
I have ridden both but those were flogged-out crap, those were dreams compared to the ones I rode. These days my 3c Laverda is in a similar state, bucket loads of time and cash has that effect. Love your work blokes.
I like the comparisons.& I like old machines.too much technology bells & whistles.with modern machines.
Love the guitar tones in the opening jam!!!
You guys summed-it-up for me with one-word : Engaging . I'm a bit older than most of you , grew-up with all the bikes that are now classics , many now unaffordable . I sold my last faster-bike because it was boring (k75s BMW) It would do 120mph all-day , corner-well, brake-well , silky-smooth and fast-acceleration but I may as-well have taken-up Golf . My XV1000 TR1 on the other-hand (quite-modified and doesn't look like a TR1) is a fire-breathing-beast that requires total-commitment and dares-you to push those-corners . You know you are alive when you ride it . This is what bikes Are for me . I do have my 'Old-Man-Bike' (a kawasaki W650) and it is louder than stock , very-pretty and 100-percent-reliable so I have the-best of both-worlds in a way . Dave nz
After joining the US Navy, I bought my first motorcycle...a 1973 Norton 850 Commando...black with gold pinstripes and got caught up in the cafe racing scene in the San Francisco Bay area. A couple years later, I bought a new 1974 Ducati 750 Sport. One of the guys on another ship bought an R90S and we had a good time exploring the roads in the area.
Both bikes were sold by the time I got married and started a family.
A couple years ago I bought a 1975 R90S and ended up going through the entire bike mechanically. I'm really enjoying the bike, and am amazed at its reliability once things are sorted, as well as the ability to take it on long distance rides.
Thanks for this video. I've owned my MKIII Roadster for nearly 30 years, and I love it. R90S is the only BMW i'd like to own, maybe except from the BMW GS1150Adventure (in silver, of course).
As for a classic, the Norton Commando is rare and more of a sportsbike then the BMW. I'll make this short, I'm still in love with my Commando 🙂
Class content guys - keep it comin' !!
Another wonderful video from your excellent channel; a lovely mix of action and knowledgeable discussion, keep ‘um comin’ LD Gang.
I’m 62 and lusted after Commandos in my youth but by the time I was old enough I ended up being taken in by the Japanese marketing machine and rode a CX500 before handing up my boots. 42 yrs later, retirement has given me the time to scratch that inevitable itch and as much as I crave a Commando I couldn’t neither safely store or maintain it (for now at least) and bought what many tout as the closest you can get from a newly made motorcycle; including 360 crank and even bias ply tires!! Yep, you guessed it, a Kawasaki W800 Cafe. Have any of the Gang ridden one; thoughts? Possible contender for a future video? Anyway, keep up the good work and I look forward to the next one.
Great video! I love the bikes you guys do articles on. I own/owned bikes like these. I have rode many of the bikes you guys review. Your channel has become my favorite channel. Please keep up doing videos like these. My main bikes are a 650 Bonneville and an 1100 BMW Oil Head.
Thanks Dan
Brilliant vid Mike! Very poignant as it reminds me of when I used to commute from Glos to Preston (!!!) on my ‘79 R100RT and would often meet a guy on his Commando riding up the M5/M6. Motorways were pretty deserted that early back then and we used to race each other up the motorway (legal of course officer😊 ) and I was always surprised just how similar in performance his 850 and my R100 were. I liked sitting behind him just for the glorious sound from those pea shooter pipes.
You only needed a Jota and Ducati 860 gts to round off the sound tracks😀
R90 frame was a little bit elastic, like the R100’s and they really needed a fork brace in addition to the friction steering damper. My R100 used to get into terrible tank slappers too. “They all do that sir😂” Not the best things handling wise but great mile munchers. They have a healthy appetite for spark plugs from what I remember of mine. If mine ever dropped out of tune or started running roughly it was usually a plug or a cv carb diaphragm needed replacing.
As discussed, Commando was supposed to be sort of a stop gap using as little investment in new tooling as possible, until a more modern engine miraculously appeared (Cosworth Ha ha) Its engine was stretched beyond original design limits. The Bmw (and the Japs) represented what could be achieved with much younger tooling, design and attitude to investment.
Norton and diligent owners were lucky that this bike rose above its origins in it's characterful pleasing dynamics almost as if it said, 'lm going to fight to the death' and in that, is aptly named.
The Commando was a terrific bike out of the box.Everybody said that its frame would be rubbish after the Featherbed, but they were wrong. For a $10 upgrade the isolastic mountings were unbelievably good. Okay, they masked the problem rather than eliminating it but to redesign the crankcases to take ballancer shafts was a no-no when Norton Villiers had no money for radical development. The Combat engine was a bit of a bomb with 10:1 pistons and a radical cam but the 850 was soft tuned and a reliable unit. The last was probably the best.
Great video. Love both bikes. The 90S has a different fork set up to standard BMs, they were slightly stiffer using a different valving set up. I have converted my RS to the same spec and its a bitter harsher on bumpy roads but handles nicely.
I have bad knees from running 17 marathons and at least 100 other races over 30km (plus all the training miles to get to the starting lines). Yet I have no problem whatsoever starting my 750 Commando. It's really down to technique -- and having an RGM Norton aftermarket kickstart lever, which adds about an inch in length and a fair bit of rigidity, so you get just a little more leverage. With a good Tri-Spark ignition system in it, mine starts on the first small kick every time when warm. When stone cold, it takes one slow press down through the kicking motion to get a full charge of fuel/air into the intake runners, at which point, it'll go over on the next downward stroke.
Hi guys great video as always, I would be interested in one of your T shirts. I will take a picture of me wearing it at Ayers Rock next year, part of my 60th birthday plans....a plan is one thing, turning it into reality may be quite another. Keep up the great work by the way the Commando is an exact replica of my brothers from the 1970's. OH.... happy days! Cheers Lester. Gold coast QLD.
I had a 1970 BSA Lightning and after the engine seized after 3000 miles I bought a 1973 Triumph Tiger which gave me a lot of headaches, too. Then I bought a 2nd hand BMW R75/6 with 40.000 km on the clock and never a problem. Good handling, too. Careful in the curves because of the tits of the Gummikuh.
Great stuff lads 👍
It’s nice to see / hear what can be done with some sympathetic tuning mods, carried out by someone who clearly knows what he’s doing, to make that Norton into something very special. And clearly better than the day it was new, without losing the classic appeal of an old bike……..well done Sir………
Will pass that on to Dave he is an “Artist with spanners”
Great video. Well done.
An interesting and entertaining video. Thanks for sharing.
I much preferred my Dunstall Atlas to the Commando. I need spend many hours settling it up. The Norton 650ss I owned before it was also a great bike. It just needed some tinkering to set it up.
Good comparison i owned 73 BMW motorcycle 750 long time ago very nice bike different feeling and torque engine in future i like to own 850 Norton now i own bmw k and Rt and Kawasaki concous
I was 5ft 6ins, now nearing 75 I've shrunk a bit, weigh 10st 7lbs, complete right knee replacement years ago and hip damage so forced to kick with my left leg. My 850 that's in much the same tune as your test bike though it starts very easily. I put it down to the Tri Spark ignition and Jim Schmitt's softest cam, radiused BSA type followers and pushrod kit. The Tri Spark virtually eliminates kick back and the Jim Schmitt cam kit significantly reduces valve gear friction.
Pleased you liked the head steady, kick start and 13mm master cylinder.
Dave T.
Thanks Dave, yes I have a Trispark in my Rocket 3 and a Pazon digital ignition in my T140, but never have kickbacks on the commando with the analogue Pazon? love Jim Schmidt's stuff but very pricey with import duties this side of the pond. I've just fitted a one piece rear axle from Don Pender and cost as much again in postage!
very interesting comparison guys. Talking about Japanese - you should compare Kawasaki W1 with Beeza A10 ;) But more about today's comparison - bring the Yam XS2 into the equation
Did a ABM handle bar conversion on my thruxton transformed the bike for me as needed a hip replacement keep the conversion after new hip as the bike was so much more rideable
I think it’s interesting that back in 1975 these bikes were contemporary models, available to the relatively wealthy or committed.
But if you do put yourself back then, these bikes didn’t have the romance or character that we seem to ascribe to classics now. When I think about old bikes I tend to want something that gives me a feeling of the past, my own history or bikes I enjoyed, in other words ‘ rose coloured glasses’. Yet, at the time they were new these bikes had none of this classic history or feelings or emotional experience we feel now. I thought about this a couple of years ago and decided that I did like the BMW twins, the old ones I used to have were new in their day, so I thought well I liked them then perhaps I’ll like a new one. So R1200R found it’s way to me. It was a great bike, a bit too too heavy, top heavy and tall, but very well made and it did have that BMW dna. But ultimately it was just not as charming as those old bikes from the seventies. It was better, dynamically, performance, reliability, etc, etc, in every way but it just didn’t do it for me.
So while we can’t judge the newer bikes against the old on some levels, on a purely visceral level the old bikes seem to hold sway. And so here we are loving these old things.
Nice ride, great bikes. I had a 74 Commmando 850, wonderful punchy engine fun to ride. Sold it for a Guzzi Le Mans mk1. Much better bike but wish I stilll had the Norton. Cheers.
Loved this, guys. Like you, I grew up in the ‘70s and these two bikes were the poster bikes at the time I was on my FS1-E. Used to joke with my mates that BM riders were all middle-aged pipe smokers. Roll on fifty years and I am now enjoying my 1973 R50/5. I don’t smoke a pipe though…Oh, and by the way do you have the T shirts in a 40” chest? 😉
Great video. Had a ride on the BM and the Comando back in the 70s. Both good bikes with different characters but similar perfomance. One big difference though was the clunk with every gear change on the BM. Also went to the IOM back in the 70s on a 750 Honda and my mate on a 750 Comando. Both went well but the Honda so much more impressive with all the modern tech.
We are all Guzzi owners/fans the BMW clunk is a mere whisper compared to the noises a guzzi makes
@@LemonDrizzleGang never tried a Guzzi but love a V twin. Ride an Yamaha MT01 now but still got my old A10!
Are Norton missing a trick not bringing out a more affordable commando retro? One that actually looks like the bike in this video
@@markmark2080 It wouldn't pass emission and noise tests without ecu fuel injection and water cooling.
@@SimonRatcliff-ss8mnSadly true, thanks
As we get older and still love our Nortons, some wonder how do I start my 750/850 with bad knees? Put on a CNW belt drive/electric Start kit. The massively lighted clutch basket will save the gearbox and improve shifting and the push button Start makes the starting feel like a modern bike.
Dave was saying the same to Richard get one and do the mods you describe
Great stuff.
Loved the video. I tested both bikes when new when I wrote a weekly motorbike column for the Cheshire Observer newspaper in Chester in the 1970s. The BMW was superb but the Norton wasn’t one of their best. I’ve since ridden a well sorted Commando and it was miles better. I was pleased to hear you reference Peter Egan; we’ve been pen pals for a few years. Incidentally, he now rides a Himalayan and loves it. Keep up the good work!
Thanks John I remember your column I grew up in Chester 👍
Thanks John for your comments, and let Peter Egan know about our homage to his superb journalism 👍
I’ll tell Peter. We always correspond around Thanksgiving, so your timing is perfect. He truly was the best writer on motorcycles although I do have a soft spot for our own Dave Minton. I had the privilege of meeting him and talking about our shared love of Morinis and Laverdas. A man of taste!
@@johnmoulton7942 hi John have you seen our Morini and Laverda videos ?
I certainly have and I think that they capture the essence of these fantastic bikes. I used to sell Laverdas when I worked for Tom Loughridge in Heswall and before that time Tom’s own 750SF was one of the first bikes that I road tested for The Cheshire Observer, probably in 1974. As for Morinis, I own a 1975 3 1/2 drum braked Strada which I love riding. It’s a bit tatty but goes very well. There’s something about 70’s bikes (especially from Italy) isn’t there?
In those days that BMW was unaffordable to the majority of motorcyclists, not desirable either to youngsters like I was. Now more mature I like it a lot.
Both are my favourite bike's from the 1970's. Norton was the first one, that was my favourite, then the BMW was what second one that I liked.
Big bro owned an R100S and I rode it quite a bit. I can never get used to the cylinders sticking out the side. The best touring bike.
I'll take one of each please.
Somewhere I have a copy of Bike magazine from around 1975 where they carried out a comparison test of both these bikes. I can't remember what the outcome was but both went from 0-60 in 4.9 seconds and both had 60 bhp. Nice review, but I think I'd have to choose the Commando simply because of the effect it had, emotionally, on the 18 year old me.
The R90S was the bike that saved BMW. Sadly the Commando couldn't save Norton.
Very few people could afford the R90S.
Even though they sold well. You see them everywhere.
The answer was fairly obvious:
Honda: Introduces CB750 in 1969.
BSA: Has ideas, no money to implement.
Triumph: Has ideas, a bit more money, still punts. (Later version of Trident is cool, but day-late/dollar-short.)
Norton: ...*
Harley-Davidson: ...**
BMW: Okay, guys, we're sorta stuck with the boxer mill, but let's massage this thing to the max...we're going café, our way! (Having Bob Lutz on-board helped.)
(*Norton's problem, to me, stemmed from the attitude that punching the engine out 100cc, moving the shifter from left-to-right - never mind an extra gear - and adding electric start, was novel, nifty, and forward-thinking...in 1975/6.
That said, the Commano has *always* been cool. I also had a sick crush on the one model they had in nearly all the print ads.)
(**Yes, the Motor Company lived on, because 'Murica. And lobbying for tarriffs.)
With the BMW you were pretty sure that no matter where you went - no matter how long or how fast you travelled - you were pretty sure that you got home.
With the Norton, well .........
@@kasperkjrsgaard1447 sad but true.
A friend owned a commando at the same time l owned a BMW R100RS....l would put fuel in it and ride . He was always' fiddling' with the Norton. The Norton did sound great but had reliability issues the Beemer didn't have...now I'm older I've always fancied a 90S...especially the Orange/cream one featured to finish my motorcycle journey that began in 1962....Both great bikes, however l would say the Norton demands more rider input in terms of maintenance...
My motorcycle journey started in '61 on a Cushman, I've had a love affair with Nortons since 1970, and they really do need to be properly set up, never had one let me down. I have that '76 Daytona Orange R90S... didn't really realize how special it was when I obtained it 30 some years ago...cheers
I owned an 850 Commando 1974.My friend had a BMW 90 S.The Beemer was a faster bike hands down and cornered surprisingly well. The Norton connected me to the road more then the BMW. Both great bikes .Another friend had a 850 Commando that he had uped the compression to 10 to 1 and valve springs and cam. That was one hot bike .Although he never got together for a race WITH THE R90 IMHO they would have been at least equal.His Norton was a beast.Wish I had both in my stable.
@@royalblue2043 We were fortunate to have been able to enjoy those great bikes, of the many hundreds of motorcycle makes and models manufactured over the decades, these were among the greatest...imho
@@royalblue2043BMW 90/s 1/4 mile time clocked at 13.5 secs. Commando (not the Combat) clocked at 12.5 secs. I'm not sure about parameters. I've read Commando times as low as 12.39 and as high as 13.18. Have not found an 90/s under 13.5 secs. For what it's worth if anything. Strange that the panel said there was no difference in quickness. Not sure about their parameters either.
Hi Guys, Loved the video, being the owner of both bikes. Where would the BSA A10 650 RGS fit in to this mix?? I'm increasingly fascinated with the Brit twins after collecting the early BMW's performance /2 R 50s and R69s. Not stogy but not Norton.
Keep up the good work . Thanks for sharing your thoughts and comradery!! Like the T shirts!!
We dont have a lot of BSA knowledge (have you seen out Rocket three review)
But I would love an RGS
Don't forget the Suzuki water-cooled guys, a beaut of a bike in its own rights, (from a two times Commando owner).
In Naples Florida there is a company that makes Featherbed frames as well as alloy tanks and other parts alloy. Featherbed frame are so superior and a better handling
I have always been of the opinion that the BMW R100S is one of the most beautiful motorcycles eve made. I own the 1981 RS model and still ride it a lot.
Thanks for watching
I enjoy your channel Mike and Lemon Drizzle crew. I enjoyed the video. But Euro bike comparison? where’s the Ducati? Or the Laverda you mentioned?
Haha we would love to have included an SF750 and 750sport
Maybe next video!
I owned both 750 and 850 Commandos and R90 and R100 (naked and RS) BMWs. The latter were 83, so a little different. Both marques are superb. Handling and throttle response is similar. The BM feels bulkier but loses that on the road. The 90s was the perkiest motor of the BMs. Handling was impeccable, Norton maybe a bit quicker on the turn-in. Fuel consumption basically the same for all. Brakes on the Norton and the standard R90s are dreadful, wooden and lack power. Replacing the master cylinder would be wise. The R100s had the later Brembo brakes which were really good, a vast improvement. Back brakes on the Nortons were the drum, which was excellent, not as good on the 9Os and dismal on the 100s. Maintenance chores are a bit fiddlier on the Norton, especially the original isolastics - upgrade to Mk3 verniers and head steady. Getting at the Norton oil filter is a PITA. Of course the Nortons were 4-speed and the BMs 5 but that was pretty irrelevant in driving. The Norton shift, however, was much nicer. Nortons had Amals and BMs had Bings...there is nothing like an Amal for throttle response, it's instant. Amazing. However, on long motorway blasts the Bings seemed more relaxing. In a way it's unfortunate that a 750 Combat Commando wasn't assessed; apart from its propensity to launch the unwary kick-starter into the air, that motor was a BEAST. While here, my BMs were electric start and Nortons kick; the kick was better, no battery issues and in any case a well-fettled Commando would always start first kick. The standard lever, however, is a thing from hell. Replace it. Anyway, just buy one of any of these, you won't be disappointed.
Would you have both chosen the Norton if it had been a'75 or later with electric start?
Great video as usual, I'd love to see Yamaha RD350LC vs Suzuki X7......the sort of bikes "Average" 18-25 year olds owned back then 🙂
Stews brother has a really tasty RD350lc mars bar …… yes we are working on him to test it
Both Stew and I production raced 350 elsies back in the early 80s
@@LemonDrizzleGang I look forward to that and most of us have owned one at some point
A well sorted Le Mans would give the Norton a solid go - that would be for another video down the same roads ! ( i know you are all Guzzi fans too )
Dave had a lovely Ice blue Mk1 and Rich had a red one I suspect you may be right but would love to do a comparison
1977 Bike magazine tested the Le Mans mk1, rode it down to the Sth of France. On arriving back at Calais for the ferry the rider thought the engine was making some bad noises but on looking round a Commando had pulled up next to him. The Guzzi was quietly ticking over like it had just been to the shops.
As someone with both of the above bikes, I would have to agree with you...what a trio to have them all singing together...
Got to get those mugs out on sale….
In 1986, I was offered a red 1976 BMW R90S for £350 by a workmate, unfortunately for me I turned it down, I classed BMW's as motorcycles for old men and I was only 29 years old at that time. As you will know the R90S is now very collectable and worth a lot of money. The guy also had a blue 1975 DKW W2000 Wankel with seized rotor tips, he wanted £350 for it too, the rotary was an unknown entity to me, so I passed on that one too. With hindsight I should have taken them both off his hands, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
För future shootouts, I would suggest a Guzzi Le Mans 1, Laverda Jota besudes the Z1 and CB750 you allready mentioned.
Hade a R100CS (same looks as R90S) a few years back and in motorway speed my knees got cought by The wind and in the long run It was very disturbing... (no South of france for me😂).
if you can source the bikes we will test them 😁
have you seen our Laverda and Guzzi tests ?
@@LemonDrizzleGang
It was more a wish list then anything else.
In sweden I probably could source the bikes, but in England no..
Keep up the good work guys!! 🙏🙏
@@andersjangby300 my poor attempt at humour 👍😁
@@LemonDrizzleGang
🤣🤣🤣
I am in sweden, but mostra of the time in Sicilly, so if you feel like ridning when the season is too hostile in Wales /England you are welcome. 👍👍
I have an very sweet original 71 cb750 in Herefordshire that you guys are welcome to have a go on. Shes sitting at about 70,000 on the original motor so I don’t go too mad on it now but it’s still in regular use.
Wow that is an incredible offer thank you. i will have a chat to the lads
@@LemonDrizzleGang No problem!
What is written on the cup is drinking from? Great episode onwards and upwards guys
Dave is drinking from?
Watch till the end
Bmw's were pretty reliable in those days! Preferred my 750 roadster and later T150v for fun.now,many years later have a mk3 850 which starts on the button each time,and my zzr14 never fails! I also dont need to start braking half a mile in advance! Memory tells me the twin leading shoe was better on 750 than disc on 850
I really enjoy you work. I have an idea...I'm sure your aware that Hitchcock motorcycles do a 850cc conversion for the Interceptor & Continental...its meant to be a huge improvement. I would be interested if you could do a side by side road test / comparison between a 850 Norton Commando and a 850 Royal Enfield....If the 850 conversion is so good why don't Royal Enfield make an 850 variant??!!
That is a good Idea I would love to try a Hitchcock big bore
Have you seen our recent video with the Commando ?
@@LemonDrizzleGang Yes I enjoyed that and you other videos, I've owned two 750 Combats, I think I perfer the 750 engine...🤔
Would be interested to know what master cylinder was being used on the R90S?
I will ask Dave to respond
@@LemonDrizzleGang 14mm, gives a better feel than the 15mm used on some of the earlier bar mount Airheads. Later Brembos would be better still of course!
For someone getting back into riding after 10 years moving to Italy looking at a classic 750- Laverda 750 vs Norton 750. Norton is lighter and more nimble. Laverda is heavier but more comfortable. Are parts more available for the Norton? Some have said Laverda would need less work- but may have less parts. What would you recommend for the one bike to get?
I will get Dave to respond but I can definitely say the Norton is the sportier bike I used to have an SF2 750 and it seemed a lot heavier than the Norton
I wouldn’t take on the Norton unless you are handy with spanners.
@@LemonDrizzleGang I'd tend to agree with Mike. I'd love a 750 Laverda, still one of my bucket list bikes. About the same power as a Commando and definitely requires less spannering (comparing two bikes with equal levels of care and attention). They're also pretty smooth considering they're a solidly mounted parallel twin. The Norton is quicker off the line, mostly due to being a lot lighter (unless you go for an electric start Mk3 Commando which is only around 7kg lighter). Parts supply is amazingly good for the Norton, but chances are you'll need more of them! Laverda stuff is definitely more expensive and harder to get with only a few suppliers around the globe, but you CAN get most stuff. In Italy a commando will be more expensive for a similar standard bike, usually a few Laverdas on the market. Personally I'd at least try to cadge a ride on both of them, as riding anything this old is a heart over head decision, but if asked to choose, in your position I'd go for the Laverda IF I was in Italy and/or I wasn't so handy with the spanners? Also, either bike, get the best one you can afford!!
Much appreciated for the kind comments. For some other context I last rode a 1980 Ducati Pantah in great condition that was great to ride. Got spoilt with electric start but comfy. I was also thinking of a smaller displacement like a single cylinder 350 Desmo or scrambler as I am around 5 6’ and a smaller bike may be easier. Seen many scramblers from 250, 350 to the 450 available. 🤔 Or an older Triumph… these are all kick start area- but the 70s bikes have something unique!
These are two bikes of the Joe Bar Team, a french comic strip, does he have the others?
Yes I have a few of them
Hey Guys, Great video! I am looking at a few different Nortons this week hopeing to buy one. 71 750 fastback, 73 850, and a 75 850. I owned a fastback back in the 70's, so I am thinking one of the two 850's. What year is the Red Norton in this Video? Great sounding bike! Thanks
Thanks Jack. It's a '73 Mk1 850, but as I say in the vid, the 850 Mk1 & Mk2 are very similar, that's 73 and 74. The Mk2 would be the pick though. The 75 electric start is stronger, but heavier. With a few changes mostly for the electric start.
Thanks Dave, I was having trouble with the video not starting at the beginning so I didn’t hear the description of the bikes. I am curious as to why you prefer the 74 over the 73. Anything in particular before I pull the pin on this 73 I’m looking at? Cheers
Also I thought the electric start didn’t come out until the 75 Mach 3
Yes, correct, electric start (Mk3) is 1975@@jackcrognale417 . Only reason I'd prefer a Mk2 over a Mk1 is they used a better cylinder head design (RH10) on the Mk2 with smaller ports compared to the RH4 head on the Mk1. This gives better midrange, no loss of top end and less prone to cracks. However I wouldn't let that put me off a nice Mk1 though, (it didn't put me off), go for it! Access Norton is the best forum btw, lots of knowledge there.
Thanks for the reply and the knowledge. Cheers
Forgot to mention: all my Nortons and the R90S were fitted with hydraulic steering dampers and all the Nortons had R90S handlebars.