EFI has become mainstream in many other fields already. I've been using snowmobiling for a long time, and EFI has been around 20 years already. The EFI in snowmobiles is just more pleasant experience all around; with carburators it can require multiple pulls, with EFI engine its always 1st or 2nd pull, and at least in my experience the reliability of EFI snowmobile is higher, and gas consumption significantly lower. I wouldn't go back to carburetor snowmobiles. I also expect similar development in paramotor markets, that the market shares of EFI engines start to increase. Of course for it to largely happen it would need that other engine manufacturers also would have EFI models. Maybe in paramotor market this technology transition has been slower than on snowmobiles or motorcycles etc. because the market size is so small, and development costs are significant.
I've had an aftermarket EFI on my 185 for a few years and my main takeaways are: I'm bummed they don't have power generation. Mine does and it works great, I'm surprised they make you keep a battery charged. But I'm really glad they have the EGT in there and adjust the mixture from it. Even better than an O2 sensor honestly.
Fuel injection is the best invention since toilet paper. It simplifies the engine functions and makes operating it a snap. This is just the first series of EFI motors. As in dirt bikes the second and generation motors will get even better with increasing reliability and ease of use. Hopefully with time you might see a decrease in the price especially if the sales volume is good.
I paid $5800.00 to have a rip snorting 383 Chevy stroker built for my Boss Hoss. Brand new from the crank out. Aluminum heads, nasty cam, dyno session and delivered to my door. Someday, the average Joe won't be able to afford this sport? > $5000.00 for a two stroke engine?
You can buy an entire motorcycle for the price of a Moster with EFI. That seems crazy. I realize they have low production numbers but dang, things have gotten out of control, like wing prices doubling in since I started. The next leap in batteries will be the beginning of the end to ICE paramotors.
Long time desired system! I like it, I need it. What I don't like straigfht away: - This engine only? I personally need it on a more powerful engine than just Moster. - No charging? How is that? There are other systems to power like lights, e-clothes, gloves... Again DYI needed. - Very small-screen, tiny text and a pretty dull and limited display. And all those buttons I guess you need to press constantly to get the needed info on this stone-age relic? - And you still need all other devices with this display to get map, speed, direction, internet, communication, etc. Like there is no smartphones invented... But good luck: this is still the most desired system needed for us all anyway!
8 lb is about 5l of fuel. I think for me, if I figure an improvement from 4.5l/hr to 3l/hr I might fly with 3l less fuel for typical flights. That wouldn't quite neutralize the extra weight but would bring it down to more like 4 extra pounds for launch. The panel looks pretty bulky, I hope at some point they will offer a bluetooth/app version of that so we could use phone or watch to do what the panel does. Pretty cool, I am interested to see how it all plays out. Thanks for all the info, looking forward to part 2.
Maybe they could even integrate with Flyskysy or Gaggle apps so the engine specs can be monitored along with navigation. How long till paramotors get a Garmin panel lol
I'd love to try it! I'm really interested in flying a bigger engine, 4kg extra for the EFI seems a bit excessive, but I'd be able to fly with the same amount of fuel I have on my Top 80. I'm sure it's doable 😁🪂 The big problem for me is the price tag...
Absolutely agree regarding the safe-start feature in flight. There must be away to disable it for the flight completely to avoid accidental engine shutdown. I do use the safe-start feature in the FlyHenry PPG meter but I have a switch to physically disconnect it before takeoff. There have been multiple times when the RPM sensor glitched after a restart in the air or the meter rebooted by itself. The physical disconnect allowed to keep the engine running and troubleshooting after the flight.
It will be interesting to see updates on the lifespan of the unit. What are your estimations on the efi enhancing lifespan of the motor and reduced running costs v's initial extra price?
I’m visually impaired. While wearing corrective glasses when I’m flying, reading that dashboard might be an issue…to read things I generally prefer to look beneath the glasses but need to have the media really close to my eyes in order to read it. I’d love to see a heads up display one could attach to his/her helmet. Pipe dream I’m sure, but if they could make the focus highly adjustable for the pilot to be able to set it to an easily read resolution…
Very interesting and informative 👍🏼. Could’ve done without all the chainsaw carb references. I don’t know if you’ve ever use the chainsaw, but just because the mechanics are the same doesn’t mean they are the same. I just tore wanna park yesterday. Anyhow, that was just annoying and was bugging me throughout the whole video. 😊. But I think even with the Steve price tag this is going to have I do think it’s gonna sell like hotcakes!
Experienced powertrain engineer and calibrator here, seems there is a 2-strokr technology gap skipped by the PPG industry with both carburetor calibration and adjustable computerized ignition systems, both an order of magnitude more simple than a full blown EFI system. Tuning guides, tuning charts, jetting charts are all non-existent in PPG even though dirt bikes have had these for 60 years now. Computerized ignition, CDI, programming timing curves has been around dirt bikes for 40+ years and again the PPG industry is lacking here however it appears that Nirvana is using this (Eugene said it's proprietary how it works when I contacted him) and they've proven how much more simple it is and how effective it is.
Are you gonna be able to switch out throttles or due to the new wiring are you gonna have to run theirs? Also has there been any tests or changes to maintenance times and longevity of the engine since they will be running so much more efficient? I know Ultimate its still a two-stroke 😂 but just wondering
The weight doesn’t bother me. Not supposed to be running around with it anyway. But having battery life on top of fuel consumption seems pointless. So can’t take long flights? Or add weight with extra packs? Also. Lipo? I know the most power output. But man they have such a lousy safety rating. Too much charge or too little…fire. I ride EUCs as well and even with safety features there are porblems. This is on your back. In the air. Near a fuel tank. Should have waited to come out with a mini mag too. Just my personal opinion. This is cool though. Love the tech change. And I’m excited to see where it goes.
I would like to try it, when its going officially for sale? Can I buy Motor only or its going be sold as set (motor, cage and harness) ? Can you add a choice of LiFePo4 instead of LiPo?
Why use a fuel pressure regulator and not a PWM return less system? Seems like you could save some battery life by controlling fuel pump speed to control pressure instead of running the pump full speed constantly.
For the battery, is it imposible to add an alternator? I see there are some race ones for 2.65kg. Maybe an even smaller one with lighter materials (for aviation) could reach 1kg. Even Monkworkz has developed a 2.6 pound, 30 amp, ~14.4 vol one, and that's for a plane, 300w output, I'm guessing here we only need 65w; so a 6amps would be sufficient. Very very similar to the one inside a mini small wind turbine. Even the yamaha YZ125 stator might work (400 grams)
By the time they get this weight down to something more acceptable in the next 2-3 years, I think new battery tech will get us to the 1.5 hr - 1.75 hr mark for the electric motors (with less battery weight). Once that happens, I'm going electric.
Solid state batteries will be the next big step and they are going to be years out for something like a paramotor. I agree though, once energy density increases enough it pretty much puts an end to these gas engines.
You burn 6.5 liters per hour normally and more when going crazy on a normal engine? Wow that is a lot!! Even when I am on the rich side, and running super hard, I am burning 4.5-5 liters. On easy flight I burn 3.75 liters. I'm 200 lbs. Are you at high altitude on a very small wing??
LiPo batteries dont like to be fully charged and stored. In RC world they have a tendency to self iginte in you do that. That why chargers have "store" and "charge" mode. What did vitto say about this? Charge fully before flight only or can you charge it after flight and store it?
I like it a lot! Very innovative! However, if the battery des in flight, I'm assuming the motor dies? If that's correct, is there a battery or voltage meter such as those found on electric scooters?
I think people overstate the complication of carburetors and how often you have to tune them. Most powermotors fly around their local area and never really fly from different altitudes. I think for 90% of the population EFI will be way overkill. Right now the cost is not justified for most
It does die if the battery dies. We all know how batteries get better with age. From the very first charge the battery will get less and less run time.
so if anyone can afford it. they can buy it. but is there any other way to purchase this new paramotor? how long is the warranty? how much heavier is the motor. how long did Vittorazia test this new motor? years? has all the bugs while testing been sorted?
Do you guys know how this would work out with Scouts variomatic prop? Given that it does not operate between 5.500 - 6.500 RPMs anymore but below that. Is there a fuel consumption curve we can look up? Would be a bummer if the RPMs drop significantly because of the prop but the fuel consumption stays almost the same...
I just ordered my first moster.. to be honest i will be happy with the carb untill people have 1000s of hours on the efi Its the little things that can break unlike a pretty simple coil and spark parts that have been used for years with not many failiures Efi would be great im not sure if they have a egt or a wideband.. it would be awesome if they have a permanant egt sensor to manage wot fuel trims cht and whatnot
Just watched the full vid im loving the fact they have a egt sensor constantly monitored by the ecu this will ensure that the engine runs at its peak all of the time.. vitoratzi really know what there doing
I have a custom frame on my ppg and it added 8 pounds to the weight. I have to say 8 pounds really sucks but I'm definitely not going to break it so i just deal with it. So i think this idea is fairly tolerable for an extra 8 pounds.
I don’t believe the fuel flow figures , it’s simply impossible to burn 100% more with a carbureted engine . Fuel air mixture is 12,5 /1 rich and 16.5/1 lean (sky high EGT) . Even when the EFI runs very lean and the carbureted very rich ( almost 4 stroking) the different is max 30% even then the carbureted engine is running very poor ( bad adjusted) .
Im just glad to see evolution in the engines. Time will tell how reliable the EFI is, sounds fantastic.
EFI has become mainstream in many other fields already. I've been using snowmobiling for a long time, and EFI has been around 20 years already. The EFI in snowmobiles is just more pleasant experience all around; with carburators it can require multiple pulls, with EFI engine its always 1st or 2nd pull, and at least in my experience the reliability of EFI snowmobile is higher, and gas consumption significantly lower. I wouldn't go back to carburetor snowmobiles.
I also expect similar development in paramotor markets, that the market shares of EFI engines start to increase. Of course for it to largely happen it would need that other engine manufacturers also would have EFI models. Maybe in paramotor market this technology transition has been slower than on snowmobiles or motorcycles etc. because the market size is so small, and development costs are significant.
Eight pounds is the game changer.. I'll stick with the chain saw, until the weight drops considerably.
I've had an aftermarket EFI on my 185 for a few years and my main takeaways are: I'm bummed they don't have power generation. Mine does and it works great, I'm surprised they make you keep a battery charged. But I'm really glad they have the EGT in there and adjust the mixture from it. Even better than an O2 sensor honestly.
Good day DA, what EFI are you using? Hows it working for you? Thanks have a pleasant day. Cheers
I've also had EFI for three years now, (Michael Holiday installed it.) this is long over due. Love it!
Very cool!!! I don't think I would jump in on the new version, but after a few years of working out the bugs that will eventually show up, I am in.
Thats my take. I plan to get my first unit next year, and figure after I get a couple 100hrs on a 185 Both efi and myself will be ready.
I'm doing it now. I'm 58 and my clock is ticking!!
Smart carb essentially does the same thing without the added weight and complexity. It's already available for polini's
Fuel injection is the best invention since toilet paper. It simplifies the engine functions and makes operating it a snap. This is just the first series of EFI motors. As in dirt bikes the second and generation motors will get even better with increasing reliability and ease of use. Hopefully with time you might see a decrease in the price especially if the sales volume is good.
I'm so excited to get this!!! I'm putting my deposit for one in a few days, right before Christmas '23!!
I paid $5800.00 to have a rip snorting 383 Chevy stroker built for my Boss Hoss. Brand new from the crank out. Aluminum heads, nasty cam, dyno session and delivered to my door. Someday, the average Joe won't be able to afford this sport?
> $5000.00 for a two stroke engine?
Interesting perspective. (I’m building a 1965 mustang convertible and want everything you just mentioned, lol)
$6000.00 US Bucks.......Crazy
You can buy an entire motorcycle for the price of a Moster with EFI. That seems crazy. I realize they have low production numbers but dang, things have gotten out of control, like wing prices doubling in since I started.
The next leap in batteries will be the beginning of the end to ICE paramotors.
Looks like they added a bushing to the second exhaust joint too!
Long time desired system! I like it, I need it. What I don't like straigfht away:
- This engine only? I personally need it on a more powerful engine than just Moster.
- No charging? How is that? There are other systems to power like lights, e-clothes, gloves... Again DYI needed.
- Very small-screen, tiny text and a pretty dull and limited display. And all those buttons I guess you need to press constantly to get the needed info on this stone-age relic?
- And you still need all other devices with this display to get map, speed, direction, internet, communication, etc. Like there is no smartphones invented...
But good luck: this is still the most desired system needed for us all anyway!
Ease of use, far less maintenance. Very exciting!
8 lb is about 5l of fuel. I think for me, if I figure an improvement from 4.5l/hr to 3l/hr I might fly with 3l less fuel for typical flights. That wouldn't quite neutralize the extra weight but would bring it down to more like 4 extra pounds for launch. The panel looks pretty bulky, I hope at some point they will offer a bluetooth/app version of that so we could use phone or watch to do what the panel does. Pretty cool, I am interested to see how it all plays out. Thanks for all the info, looking forward to part 2.
Maybe they could even integrate with Flyskysy or Gaggle apps so the engine specs can be monitored along with navigation. How long till paramotors get a Garmin panel lol
I'd love to try it! I'm really interested in flying a bigger engine, 4kg extra for the EFI seems a bit excessive, but I'd be able to fly with the same amount of fuel I have on my Top 80. I'm sure it's doable 😁🪂
The big problem for me is the price tag...
Absolutely agree regarding the safe-start feature in flight. There must be away to disable it for the flight completely to avoid accidental engine shutdown.
I do use the safe-start feature in the FlyHenry PPG meter but I have a switch to physically disconnect it before takeoff. There have been multiple times when the RPM sensor glitched after a restart in the air or the meter rebooted by itself. The physical disconnect allowed to keep the engine running and troubleshooting after the flight.
Glad to see this. I'll stick with a carb. 4 second delay is a deal breaker.
It will be interesting to see updates on the lifespan of the unit. What are your estimations on the efi enhancing lifespan of the motor and reduced running costs v's initial extra price?
I’m visually impaired. While wearing corrective glasses when I’m flying, reading that dashboard might be an issue…to read things I generally prefer to look beneath the glasses but need to have the media really close to my eyes in order to read it. I’d love to see a heads up display one could attach to his/her helmet. Pipe dream I’m sure, but if they could make the focus highly adjustable for the pilot to be able to set it to an easily read resolution…
Great video. Did Vitto mention any intentions to bring EFI to the Atom 80?
My main question is how reliable do you think it is with there history of not being able to solve cracking exhausts
Very interesting and informative 👍🏼. Could’ve done without all the chainsaw carb references. I don’t know if you’ve ever use the chainsaw, but just because the mechanics are the same doesn’t mean they are the same. I just tore wanna park yesterday. Anyhow, that was just annoying and was bugging me throughout the whole video. 😊. But I think even with the Steve price tag this is going to have I do think it’s gonna sell like hotcakes!
Experienced powertrain engineer and calibrator here, seems there is a 2-strokr technology gap skipped by the PPG industry with both carburetor calibration and adjustable computerized ignition systems, both an order of magnitude more simple than a full blown EFI system.
Tuning guides, tuning charts, jetting charts are all non-existent in PPG even though dirt bikes have had these for 60 years now.
Computerized ignition, CDI, programming timing curves has been around dirt bikes for 40+ years and again the PPG industry is lacking here however it appears that Nirvana is using this (Eugene said it's proprietary how it works when I contacted him) and they've proven how much more simple it is and how effective it is.
Are you gonna be able to switch out throttles or due to the new wiring are you gonna have to run theirs? Also has there been any tests or changes to maintenance times and longevity of the engine since they will be running so much more efficient? I know Ultimate its still a two-stroke 😂 but just wondering
Exhaust pipes still cracking after how many years and revisions..
Thank you for this smart and useful video !!!!!
The weight doesn’t bother me. Not supposed to be running around with it anyway. But having battery life on top of fuel consumption seems pointless. So can’t take long flights? Or add weight with extra packs? Also. Lipo? I know the most power output. But man they have such a lousy safety rating. Too much charge or too little…fire. I ride EUCs as well and even with safety features there are porblems. This is on your back. In the air. Near a fuel tank. Should have waited to come out with a mini mag too. Just my personal opinion. This is cool though. Love the tech change. And I’m excited to see where it goes.
I would like to try it, when its going officially for sale? Can I buy Motor only or its going be sold as set (motor, cage and harness) ? Can you add a choice of LiFePo4 instead of LiPo?
Why use a fuel pressure regulator and not a PWM return less system? Seems like you could save some battery life by controlling fuel pump speed to control pressure instead of running the pump full speed constantly.
Separate start/stop button and no safe start is a must. KISS
Smaller battery with in-flight charging a must before I consider. Also did they say it’s a lipo battery? Not sure id trust that near the fuel tank.
My concern too.
For the battery, is it imposible to add an alternator? I see there are some race ones for 2.65kg. Maybe an even smaller one with lighter materials (for aviation) could reach 1kg. Even Monkworkz has developed a 2.6 pound, 30 amp, ~14.4 vol one, and that's for a plane, 300w output, I'm guessing here we only need 65w; so a 6amps would be sufficient. Very very similar to the one inside a mini small wind turbine. Even the yamaha YZ125 stator might work (400 grams)
By the time they get this weight down to something more acceptable in the next 2-3 years, I think new battery tech will get us to the 1.5 hr - 1.75 hr mark for the electric motors (with less battery weight). Once that happens, I'm going electric.
Solid state batteries will be the next big step and they are going to be years out for something like a paramotor. I agree though, once energy density increases enough it pretty much puts an end to these gas engines.
So they can make it EFI. But the can't stop the muffler from cracking...... they should really work on that problem!!!!!!
Don't worry, they've just added another hole to the exhaust for the EGT sensor 🤣🤣
You burn 6.5 liters per hour normally and more when going crazy on a normal engine? Wow that is a lot!! Even when I am on the rich side, and running super hard, I am burning 4.5-5 liters. On easy flight I burn 3.75 liters. I'm 200 lbs. Are you at high altitude on a very small wing??
LiPo batteries dont like to be fully charged and stored. In RC world they have a tendency to self iginte in you do that. That why chargers have "store" and "charge" mode. What did vitto say about this? Charge fully before flight only or can you charge it after flight and store it?
Hate to ask; but is the display waterproof?
probably more then crash proof hahah
I like it a lot! Very innovative! However, if the battery des in flight, I'm assuming the motor dies? If that's correct, is there a battery or voltage meter such as those found on electric scooters?
I'm guessing you can avoid that 4s delay on flight with a sensor that knows you are sitted on the sit (or have been for at least 10sec)
It’s not the first EFI paramotor. Miniplane were making them 10 years ago!
What's the fuel economy like?
Also it's not the first EFI paramotor.
I think people overstate the complication of carburetors and how often you have to tune them. Most powermotors fly around their local area and never really fly from different altitudes. I think for 90% of the population EFI will be way overkill. Right now the cost is not justified for most
I’m wondering if people who use AvGas 100LL in their paramotor will still be able to do so with the new EFI Moster 185?
Between the price and the extra weight i believe ill wait a few years. Also if the battery dies doesnt the motor?
It does die if the battery dies. We all know how batteries get better with age. From the very first charge the battery will get less and less run time.
Can you charge the battery at a charging station for cross county trips?
😂😂😂😂!!! My thought exactly
looks like a bronze bush in the second exhaust joint also, is this another exhaust redesign also?
so if anyone can afford it. they can buy it. but is there any other way to purchase this new paramotor? how long is the warranty? how much heavier is the motor. how long did Vittorazia test this new motor? years? has all the bugs while testing been sorted?
EFI with multiple sensors? Can you see where this this could go?
Is there not an alternator of sorts that can be used to keep the battery charged??
Do you guys know how this would work out with Scouts variomatic prop? Given that it does not operate between 5.500 - 6.500 RPMs anymore but below that. Is there a fuel consumption curve we can look up? Would be a bummer if the RPMs drop significantly because of the prop but the fuel consumption stays almost the same...
Does the second bronze bushing help the exhaust from not cracking?
Sell as a kit to retrofit to all moster models
I just ordered my first moster.. to be honest i will be happy with the carb untill people have 1000s of hours on the efi
Its the little things that can break unlike a pretty simple coil and spark parts that have been used for years with not many failiures
Efi would be great im not sure if they have a egt or a wideband.. it would be awesome if they have a permanant egt sensor to manage wot fuel trims cht and whatnot
Just watched the full vid im loving the fact they have a egt sensor constantly monitored by the ecu this will ensure that the engine runs at its peak all of the time.. vitoratzi really know what there doing
My question, is it possible to convert a moster 185 carb to EFI, and will they offer a kit to make the conversion.
Sadly, not at this time :/
I have a custom frame on my ppg and it added 8 pounds to the weight. I have to say 8 pounds really sucks but I'm definitely not going to break it so i just deal with it. So i think this idea is fairly tolerable for an extra 8 pounds.
They say about 8lbs. Probably closer to 10 or 12
I don’t believe the fuel flow figures , it’s simply impossible to burn 100% more with a carbureted engine . Fuel air mixture is 12,5 /1 rich and 16.5/1 lean (sky high EGT) . Even when the EFI runs very lean and the carbureted very rich ( almost 4 stroking) the different is max 30% even then the carbureted engine is running very poor ( bad adjusted) .
Wheres part 2??????
Can only be serviced by a Vittorazi dealer. Going the way of car servicing. And will cost a bloody fortune.
Price and weight is the issue boyz. You want to make it mainstream. Get thoes numbers down!
A smartcarb is very reliable, requires no queertrons, and is $500 bucks.
No retro kit for my factory r? That's bs
There's so much different it wouldn't be possible to retrofit.
All the upgrades and it still has that trash throttle handle
GET RID OF IT
Expensive, heavy, useless.🤷♂️