@@mytandasouder4485 I don't think anyone should say what they do on comment boards. That said, starting any new job can be challenging. Watching these videos help me to relax.😁
Timbo, maybe you can do a painting of when Frodo, Sam, and Pippin meet Gildor Inglorion and his elves in forest above Woodhall, a life-changing, dream-fulfilling moment for one Samwise Gamgee.😁
@@timbotook6447 That would be fantastic. I don't know if you could have the elves carrying the blue Feanorian lamps, but that would be cool. I think Peter Jackson had them glowing or something like that. There have to be Feanorian lamps in Middle Earth.
If you didn't have Lexi and Helen on and were talking about elves... I'd check your temperature. So what we're saying is elves get stuck in an eternal midlife crisis? ;) I think that can also speak to a very human aspect in that there are those like hobbits who find comfort in what others would see as monotony or at least predictability, and those who are weighed down by it. Perhaps elves feel melancholy/depression far more akin to the way we would perceive it today than humans who are wrapped up in the momentum of their ever changing lives. That's another part of the feeling is that for all the races we seem to have the a lot of content to draw on. That's also a really good point Helen makes about the variations. It's funny as subsequent attempts of elves that are inspired by Tolkien usually feel very one dimensional or generic. You may be known for the Sil' but do NOT pressure yourself to do stuff you're not as excited about. I know I rec it a lot but it's mostly a way to push people/as an intro. Having to be on the outside and looking back in is the most torturous I think of. HOLD UP. Cassie was a winning name? Or was that Cathy? Because, I'll totally take a win! (Granted I have no clue when that was from, but I'll claim it dammit!) Ummm... I forgot that comment by Bilbo. I'm slightly afraid to know what an elf smells like. As Lexi explains and I now demand you all design an aroma therapy system to merchandise out. XD Oh Helen. I feel you. For years most days the only thing I can really smell are really chemical/artificial things. It's been a little better this year. Do you think the reason they create these preserved places is to limit seeing the passage of time so that the weight of their stagnant world doesn't weigh as heavily as quickly on them? To Bilbo and the dwarves, Mirkwood IS going to seem terrifying/dark. And it has darker things in it. But really it's just an environment that they're not accustomed to. I'm also now pondering over different types of elven architecture. “Got into a work dispute” now I want someone to give LotR the LearnedHands treatment. He does retcon the RIGHT way. He doesn't do a half handed rewrite. I do love how Aragorn shut that down. I LOVE the idea of elf-friend being a blessing! OH my! I hadn't gotten to Lost Tales, that is quite an issue if you go by that version with the 'give us your women!' request. Now I think that whoever drew Helen as an elf needs to draw this Matt as a dwarf. Well you WOULD paint the walls if you were trying to sell that house ;) And I may agree with that on Legolas but I see what Lexi's point is. If/when I reread I'll pay attention to that. I think those people who don't like the elves are too caught up in that 'watered down' version of elves that have come since. I think you have to at least respect them as they construct so much of the origin's structure. Elves as avengers! I /love/ it!!
Because they are hot and I am shallow! Also, there is something in our brain that reacts to having our heart torn into little pieces and stomped on (and in the case of some Fëanorians I could mention, set on fire) that for some inexplicable reason triggers a serotonin response in us humans. No idea why. Excuse me while I go watch some fanart on the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. MY SPELLCHECK KNOWS HOW TO SPELL NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD, this is how sad I am.
Hello Dan, thanks for the relaxing entertainment. Are you going to cover further races than Men and Dwarves? I would love to have episodes on (ordered in decreasing priority) Orcs, Ents, Ainur, perhaps even Eagles. But mostly Orcs 😀
I posted this elsewhere, but wanted to repost for visibility as I think it ties into today's topic. The Elves were created in the first themes of the Ainulindalë, when the plan was for a pristine Arda in "Springtime", but Melkor's poisoning of the Music created "Arda Marred", a world that was ultimately toxic to Elves and other immortal beings in the long term, hence why Valinor was the only safe place for the Elves to live out their eternal lives until the death of the Universe. Even the Valar/Maiar are not immune to Melkor's poison, hence their need to create the the Two Trees as a renewable resource...i.e. the Two Trees were to the Valar as the Three Rings were to the Elves...and without them even the Valar are doomed to grow weary after ten thousand centuries, and their watch on the Doors of Night will one day fail. Iluvatar's Gift of Death allowed Humanity to not just survive long-term in Arda Marred, but thrive as the Elves were originally intended, and also evolve in ways not expected. Ironic that the Elves once called Humanity "The Sickly" as it would ultimately be the Elves who would wither in the mortal world. But the ultimate triumph of Life is pretty cool... that Morgoth tried to poison the Universe and all the beauty, but here comes Mankind who is perfectly suited to live in this new environment.
Because they fricking rock! Characters like Luthien, Beleg, Galadriel etc the majority of them are awesome... expect the son's of Feanor, they're a special case
Given Tolkien's own religiosity, I tend to look at the key elements (in this case Elves) in LotR (and supporting writings) as Tolkien's thought exercises about his religion. That Elves do not die naturally parallels the belief that Adam and Eve (in Genesis) would not have died if they had not eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Thank you Lexi for calling The Book of Lost Tales version of the Fall of Gondolin canon. Too bad Christopher didn't treat it like that in the stand alone book.
@@Crafty_Spirit Really? Maybe in a video she did, but I am sure I didn't mishear her saying she preferred something about the "Lost Tales." The Unfinished Tales only covers Tuor's passage through the Gates, doesn't it? She was referring to something after that.
@@Crafty_Spirit Found it! At 22:35, she strongly insists, "... and you have to read the version in the Book of Lost Tales. I don't care. It's the only version - mechanical dragons...." I felt the same way, so when she said it, I stopped the video to post the above comment. You probably saw a video that she did on this topic. She either changed her mind on something or both things are oddly in agreement with each other.🤔
Haha, Jerry Springer. I was actually in the audience of that show once, hoping that it would make for an interesting experience during my stay in the U.S. to advance my English. It was a rather disgusting experience, and disgusting in ways I never expected. At least, the Dwarves and Elves went through their feuds without much of a sadistic audience.
I'd say the elves had changed so much in the 3rd Age because all the reckless ones were dead. The idea that it was a mistake for the Valar to bring the elves to Valinor is based on what happened to the elves that remained in Middle-Earth. But the Vanyar, some of the Noldor, and many of the Teleri remained in Valinor and apparently did just fine. If remaining in Middle-Earth was a long term solution for the elves then why in the end did they have to leave Middle-Earth? Concerning the argument that the Noldor were needed in Middle-Earth to fight against Morgoth because otherwise the Free Peoples already in Middle-Earth would have been easily conquered, I'd like to point out that the only reason the Noldor were capable of the feats they accomplished in the wars against Morgoth was because of the abilities they developed in their time in Valinor. It also assumes that the Valar would have not intervened at some point to stop Morgoth if most of the Noldor had not gone back to Middle-Earth to fight Morgoth.
For sure, without the aid of elves in the First Age, all men would've succumbed to the evil of Melkor. Also true, if the Elves had never gone to Valinor, their effectiveness in fighting Morgoth would have diminished and perhaps they and their human students would have been less effective at fighting his forces.
Good points. However I think the unrest of the Noldor was caused by a lack of challenge and autonomy in their lives in Aman, which likely would not have been the case had they stayed in Middle-earth. It was exasperated by Morgoth's lies, yes, and ignited by Fëanor's rage and obsession -- but there was a problem in that society that existed there to begin with. It makes for an interesting thought experiment, and none can truly say what would have happened. But I think that if they were more free to come and go, as my guests suggested, then maybe there wouldn't have been a rebellion (although Fëanor still would have most likely gone to war for the Silmarils, so who knows).
@@VoiceofGeekdom Valinor seems to be the perfect place for the Elves and Eru made their hearts yearn for it, which is really the whole point of the Sea Yearning. They lacked nothing and did not desire more than they had, or else they would have left Aman long before they did. Eru knew this. Yet the Noldor would be a great help to the elves and men of Middle Earth, so Eru allowed the Valar to do the dumb act of paroling Melkor, which set the whole excursion into motion. I don't think elves are driven by "challenges" the way we human are. I really don't believe they get bored with the creations of Eru and just singing, dancing, telling and listening to stories, etc. Once the challenge presented itself, some, like Galadriel, started to make their own plans.
@The Clueless Fangirl I totally agree with what you're saying about the 'elf friends' and men just surviving. It's not their fault, they had no Valar supporting them or inviting them to Valinor, they had to make it on their own without any support or help. It's almost arrogant on the part of the Elves and reinforces the idea of their supposed superiority and pretentiousness when in fact they are biologically in a sense the same race as men, but without the 'gift' of men. Also, Elves did have a fall in a major way before the men, not in the same way with men but it's still a fall nonetheless.
Basically Elves were created for the intended pristine Arda, but Melkor's poisoning of the Music created "Arda Marred", a world that was ultimately toxic to Elves and other immortal beings in the long term, hence why Valinor was the only safe place for the Elves to live out the life of the Universe (even the Valar/Maiar were not immune to Melkor's poison, hence their need to create the the Two Trees as a renewable resource...i.e. the Two Trees were to the Valar as the Three Rings were to the Elves... and without them the Valar are doomed to grow weary and the watch on the Doors of Night will one day fail...). Iluvatar's Gift of Death allowed Humanity to not just survive long-term in Arda Marred, but thrive as the Elves were originally intended.
@@LordTelperion My point that I was trying to make was that because the elves were protected by the Valar the men become more exposed to the corruption of Melkor, they were on their own. The elves were also exposed to Melkor's corruption but not in the same way as men. It really depends on what you mean by 'thrive'.
@@ecthelionofthefountain8267 Understood. And I agree with your statement that it wasn't their fault and there was indeed arrogance on the part of the Elves. I just wanted to add that this manifestation of why there are even two Children of Iluvatar in the first place was the result of the events of the Music, the changing of the world into a place hostile to Elves spiritually, and why Elven arrogance was misplaced because as it turns out only Humans can spiritually survive in this Morgoth-tained universe because they can die. :)
@@LordTelperion Thank you, yes that's true I agree with your point there. I do find it quite sad with the waning of the Elves that they're bound to Arda, whereas the men can leave which I guess is a type of freedom that the elves don't have.
Thanks so much for having me on! This was a great talk! 😁
Hey lexi . Glad to see you here .. oh congratulations on making Dans crack team ( just started) .
@@shanenolan8252 why hello Shane, we really have to stop running into each other like this 🤣
@@GirlNextGondor ha yes we do
This was a blast! LMAO on the editing Dan 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Helens reactions to Dwarves gets me every time 😂 Great discussion as always!
😂😂😂😂
I had a long, hard first day at my new job and saw this wonderful video waiting for me. Thanks Dan, Lexi, and Helen for making my day! 😄
Who was it? What are you doing?
@@mytandasouder4485
???????
@@Enerdhil you first day at work haha
@@mytandasouder4485
I don't think anyone should say what they do on comment boards. That said, starting any new job can be challenging. Watching these videos help me to relax.😁
@@Enerdhil fair enough! Yeah same!
I love your editing, the different clips you insert, very funny and appropriate. Have a great day everyone
I love this! It’s like getting to hang out with you guys for a fun discussion ❤️
Livestreams will be coming to VOG before the end of the year. When that happens, you'll be able to hang out with us in real time!
Love it! I’m looking forward to it!
Because they have fabulous hair of course.
Of course! 🧝♀️
YES!!! I've been waiting for this one!!!
Timbo, maybe you can do a painting of when Frodo, Sam, and Pippin meet Gildor Inglorion and his elves in forest above Woodhall, a life-changing, dream-fulfilling moment for one Samwise Gamgee.😁
@@Enerdhil I have yet on my list, but it may have to be a two parter. One episode for the landscape and one for the hobbits and elves.
@@timbotook6447
That would be fantastic. I don't know if you could have the elves carrying the blue Feanorian lamps, but that would be cool. I think Peter Jackson had them glowing or something like that. There have to be Feanorian lamps in Middle Earth.
@@timbotook6447 that would be sick!
I'm so happy! this discussion with all you guys was wonderful! I love Elves!
I love you guys! Thank you FOG, you're the best!
“This is what I get for inviting girls on my channel” 😂😂😂
I forgot he said that 😂😂😂
Tolkien singing at 15:55…it has some of the characteristics of both Catholic and Byzantine Rite liturgical chant.
Wow I have never imagined any of the songs like that in my head before. My next read through is going to be interesting lol
If you didn't have Lexi and Helen on and were talking about elves... I'd check your temperature.
So what we're saying is elves get stuck in an eternal midlife crisis? ;) I think that can also speak to a very human aspect in that there are those like hobbits who find comfort in what others would see as monotony or at least predictability, and those who are weighed down by it. Perhaps elves feel melancholy/depression far more akin to the way we would perceive it today than humans who are wrapped up in the momentum of their ever changing lives.
That's another part of the feeling is that for all the races we seem to have the a lot of content to draw on. That's also a really good point Helen makes about the variations. It's funny as subsequent attempts of elves that are inspired by Tolkien usually feel very one dimensional or generic.
You may be known for the Sil' but do NOT pressure yourself to do stuff you're not as excited about. I know I rec it a lot but it's mostly a way to push people/as an intro.
Having to be on the outside and looking back in is the most torturous I think of.
HOLD UP. Cassie was a winning name? Or was that Cathy? Because, I'll totally take a win! (Granted I have no clue when that was from, but I'll claim it dammit!)
Ummm... I forgot that comment by Bilbo. I'm slightly afraid to know what an elf smells like. As Lexi explains and I now demand you all design an aroma therapy system to merchandise out. XD
Oh Helen. I feel you. For years most days the only thing I can really smell are really chemical/artificial things. It's been a little better this year.
Do you think the reason they create these preserved places is to limit seeing the passage of time so that the weight of their stagnant world doesn't weigh as heavily as quickly on them?
To Bilbo and the dwarves, Mirkwood IS going to seem terrifying/dark. And it has darker things in it. But really it's just an environment that they're not accustomed to. I'm also now pondering over different types of elven architecture.
“Got into a work dispute” now I want someone to give LotR the LearnedHands treatment.
He does retcon the RIGHT way. He doesn't do a half handed rewrite.
I do love how Aragorn shut that down. I LOVE the idea of elf-friend being a blessing!
OH my! I hadn't gotten to Lost Tales, that is quite an issue if you go by that version with the 'give us your women!' request. Now I think that whoever drew Helen as an elf needs to draw this Matt as a dwarf.
Well you WOULD paint the walls if you were trying to sell that house ;) And I may agree with that on Legolas but I see what Lexi's point is. If/when I reread I'll pay attention to that.
I think those people who don't like the elves are too caught up in that 'watered down' version of elves that have come since. I think you have to at least respect them as they construct so much of the origin's structure.
Elves as avengers! I /love/ it!!
Because they are hot and I am shallow! Also, there is something in our brain that reacts to having our heart torn into little pieces and stomped on (and in the case of some Fëanorians I could mention, set on fire) that for some inexplicable reason triggers a serotonin response in us humans. No idea why. Excuse me while I go watch some fanart on the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. MY SPELLCHECK KNOWS HOW TO SPELL NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD, this is how sad I am.
Hello Dan, thanks for the relaxing entertainment. Are you going to cover further races than Men and Dwarves? I would love to have episodes on (ordered in decreasing priority) Orcs, Ents, Ainur, perhaps even Eagles. But mostly Orcs 😀
Cheers dan and Helen. And lexi .
The Noldor. One spectacular death after another.
I posted this elsewhere, but wanted to repost for visibility as I think it ties into today's topic.
The Elves were created in the first themes of the Ainulindalë, when the plan was for a pristine Arda in "Springtime", but Melkor's poisoning of the Music created "Arda Marred", a world that was ultimately toxic to Elves and other immortal beings in the long term, hence why Valinor was the only safe place for the Elves to live out their eternal lives until the death of the Universe. Even the Valar/Maiar are not immune to Melkor's poison, hence their need to create the the Two Trees as a renewable resource...i.e. the Two Trees were to the Valar as the Three Rings were to the Elves...and without them even the Valar are doomed to grow weary after ten thousand centuries, and their watch on the Doors of Night will one day fail. Iluvatar's Gift of Death allowed Humanity to not just survive long-term in Arda Marred, but thrive as the Elves were originally intended, and also evolve in ways not expected. Ironic that the Elves once called Humanity "The Sickly" as it would ultimately be the Elves who would wither in the mortal world. But the ultimate triumph of Life is pretty cool... that Morgoth tried to poison the Universe and all the beauty, but here comes Mankind who is perfectly suited to live in this new environment.
Because they fricking rock! Characters like Luthien, Beleg, Galadriel etc the majority of them are awesome... expect the son's of Feanor, they're a special case
The Sons of Fëanor got dealt a really shitty hand and they are our precious meowmeow of doom and tragedy, which is why we love them.
Given Tolkien's own religiosity, I tend to look at the key elements (in this case Elves) in LotR (and supporting writings) as Tolkien's thought exercises about his religion. That Elves do not die naturally parallels the belief that Adam and Eve (in Genesis) would not have died if they had not eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Yes the Athrabeth, which we referenced several times, reinforces this idea quite strongly.
Thank you Lexi for calling The Book of Lost Tales version of the Fall of Gondolin canon. Too bad Christopher didn't treat it like that in the stand alone book.
Hey mate, I think she referred to Unfinished Tales and rejected Lost Tales because of the World War I / modern warfare elements in it.
@@Crafty_Spirit
Really? Maybe in a video she did, but I am sure I didn't mishear her saying she preferred something about the "Lost Tales." The Unfinished Tales only covers Tuor's passage through the Gates, doesn't it? She was referring to something after that.
@@Crafty_Spirit
Found it! At 22:35, she strongly insists, "... and you have to read the version in the Book of Lost Tales. I don't care. It's the only version - mechanical dragons...."
I felt the same way, so when she said it, I stopped the video to post the above comment.
You probably saw a video that she did on this topic. She either changed her mind on something or both things are oddly in agreement with each other.🤔
Haha, Jerry Springer. I was actually in the audience of that show once, hoping that it would make for an interesting experience during my stay in the U.S. to advance my English. It was a rather disgusting experience, and disgusting in ways I never expected.
At least, the Dwarves and Elves went through their feuds without much of a sadistic audience.
I'd say the elves had changed so much in the 3rd Age because all the reckless ones were dead.
The idea that it was a mistake for the Valar to bring the elves to Valinor is based on what happened to the elves that remained in Middle-Earth. But the Vanyar, some of the Noldor, and many of the Teleri remained in Valinor and apparently did just fine. If remaining in Middle-Earth was a long term solution for the elves then why in the end did they have to leave Middle-Earth?
Concerning the argument that the Noldor were needed in Middle-Earth to fight against Morgoth because otherwise the Free Peoples already in Middle-Earth would have been easily conquered, I'd like to point out that the only reason the Noldor were capable of the feats they accomplished in the wars against Morgoth was because of the abilities they developed in their time in Valinor. It also assumes that the Valar would have not intervened at some point to stop Morgoth if most of the Noldor had not gone back to Middle-Earth to fight Morgoth.
For sure, without the aid of elves in the First Age, all men would've succumbed to the evil of Melkor. Also true, if the Elves had never gone to Valinor, their effectiveness in fighting Morgoth would have diminished and perhaps they and their human students would have been less effective at fighting his forces.
Good points. However I think the unrest of the Noldor was caused by a lack of challenge and autonomy in their lives in Aman, which likely would not have been the case had they stayed in Middle-earth. It was exasperated by Morgoth's lies, yes, and ignited by Fëanor's rage and obsession -- but there was a problem in that society that existed there to begin with. It makes for an interesting thought experiment, and none can truly say what would have happened. But I think that if they were more free to come and go, as my guests suggested, then maybe there wouldn't have been a rebellion (although Fëanor still would have most likely gone to war for the Silmarils, so who knows).
@@VoiceofGeekdom
Valinor seems to be the perfect place for the Elves and Eru made their hearts yearn for it, which is really the whole point of the Sea Yearning. They lacked nothing and did not desire more than they had, or else they would have left Aman long before they did. Eru knew this. Yet the Noldor would be a great help to the elves and men of Middle Earth, so Eru allowed the Valar to do the dumb act of paroling Melkor, which set the whole excursion into motion. I don't think elves are driven by "challenges" the way we human are. I really don't believe they get bored with the creations of Eru and just singing, dancing, telling and listening to stories, etc. Once the challenge presented itself, some, like Galadriel, started to make their own plans.
@The Clueless Fangirl I totally agree with what you're saying about the 'elf friends' and men just surviving. It's not their fault, they had no Valar supporting them or inviting them to Valinor, they had to make it on their own without any support or help. It's almost arrogant on the part of the Elves and reinforces the idea of their supposed superiority and pretentiousness when in fact they are biologically in a sense the same race as men, but without the 'gift' of men. Also, Elves did have a fall in a major way before the men, not in the same way with men but it's still a fall nonetheless.
Basically Elves were created for the intended pristine Arda, but Melkor's poisoning of the Music created "Arda Marred", a world that was ultimately toxic to Elves and other immortal beings in the long term, hence why Valinor was the only safe place for the Elves to live out the life of the Universe (even the Valar/Maiar were not immune to Melkor's poison, hence their need to create the the Two Trees as a renewable resource...i.e. the Two Trees were to the Valar as the Three Rings were to the Elves... and without them the Valar are doomed to grow weary and the watch on the Doors of Night will one day fail...). Iluvatar's Gift of Death allowed Humanity to not just survive long-term in Arda Marred, but thrive as the Elves were originally intended.
@@LordTelperion My point that I was trying to make was that because the elves were protected by the Valar the men become more exposed to the corruption of Melkor, they were on their own. The elves were also exposed to Melkor's corruption but not in the same way as men. It really depends on what you mean by 'thrive'.
@@ecthelionofthefountain8267 Understood. And I agree with your statement that it wasn't their fault and there was indeed arrogance on the part of the Elves. I just wanted to add that this manifestation of why there are even two Children of Iluvatar in the first place was the result of the events of the Music, the changing of the world into a place hostile to Elves spiritually, and why Elven arrogance was misplaced because as it turns out only Humans can spiritually survive in this Morgoth-tained universe because they can die. :)
@@LordTelperion Thank you, yes that's true I agree with your point there. I do find it quite sad with the waning of the Elves that they're bound to Arda, whereas the men can leave which I guess is a type of freedom that the elves don't have.
Because they were written by Tolkien, aka the god of fantasy?
Tolkien's elves vs. the city elves, dalish elves and the ancient elves of Thedas.
An american saying that J.R. did not "speak English properly" 🤣🤣 funny