Loving this sudden explosion in collaborations across the UA-cam languages sphere! Both you and Luke make me wish I had known about linguistics back in high school, I think I definitely would've pursued it in university. Glad to see you two together!
It’s great fun but you would’ve needed a solid plan. There are plenty of jobs where meta skills like communication is important but there are very few Linguistics-centered positions outside of academia. And academia is usually very competitive. But that also depends where you are; some language-specific departments actually have a hard time recruiting PhD candidates or even master’s students.
Taking Honors Latin in high school (being a household Spanish speaker) which furthered my interest in linguistics, resulted in me finding an interest in Old English (being a native English speaker), so to witness this collaboration between two of my favorite UA-cam linguistic channels is a godsend
I'm a native Spanish speaker, and to comment on what you guys were talking about: -The five vowel system is surprisingly stable. Almost all varieties of Spanish without foreign influence have the same five vowels with very little variation. There is allophonic variation of the vowels depending on whether they are in closed or open syllables, but in my subjective experience, it is very minor, especially in comparison to the allophonic variation of consonants, which can be much greater. Some southern Spain varieties have open versions of the vowels before dropped "s", which gives them effectively a 10 vowel system and some Mexican varieties neutralize /a/ /e/ and /o/ between "s"s in unstressed syllables (pronouncing both "pesos," "pesas" and "peces" sort of like "pes's"). But other than that, vowels don't change dramatically. I do think they may sound slightly different from accent to accent, but nowhere near as much as the consonants, which vary tremendously. -The English /ɪ/ in isolation is almost always heard as an /i/ by native Spanish speakers, they usually have a hard time hearing the differences between the two. I would say the unstressed version of the vowel, like in "painted" may sound more like a /e/ to a Spanish speaker. It is a bit hard for me to say, because for some reason the distinction between the KIT and FLEECE vowels was one of the first non-Spanish distinctions I started to be able to hear as a child studying English, but I remember the song "We Will Rock You" was very popular when I was a child who couldn't speak English and I always sang it as "wi *wel* rak yu" before I could speak English. I don't know if it was because of the influence of the dark "l" in "will," because of the unstressed nature of the modal verb (which I doubt, since it's not unstressed in the song), or if I heard it closer to an /e/ because I had never actually seen the title written down and the spelling didn't influence my perception. Which brings me to another thing, which is that the way spelling and/or the way the English language was sort of "adapted" to Spanish pronunciation historically affects the way Spanish speakers pronounce English words, and that subsequently influences the way we actually perceive native English pronunciation, and this differs from country to country. One example is the English STRUT vowel, which Argentinians (like me) hear like the Spanish /a/, and therefore unironically, unintentionally confuse it with the TRAP vowels sound, pronouncing both "cat" and "cut" as though they were spelled "cat" in Spanish. However, Mexicans perceive the STRUT vowel like a Spanish /o/, and that's how they pronounce it, so that "cat" sounds like Spanish spelled "cat," and both "cut" and "caught" sound like Spanish spelled "cot." It is something that has often fascinated me, because I honestly believe they hear those vowels differently because of the influence of the historical Spanish adaptation of English. In fact, in Argentina, people can't hear the difference between the "sh" sound and the "j" sound in English, but CAN hear the difference between those sounds and the English "y" sound, whereas Mexicans struggle with the "j" and the "y," but to them the "sh" sounds like the "ch."
I have, like, no time for a 2 hour talk between you two, but... I'm going to have to make some this week. I don't care what you both end up talking about. It's going to be worth it.
Listen to things whilst doing other things. I mainly only listen to things whilst cleaning, driving, gardening, organising, working etc. There's so many opportunities.
@@soulfulserenity403 It's a good idea, and I love listening to things while I'm cleaning, folding laundry, etc. But I'm a writer, so if I have to work, nothing with speech is allowed unfortunately. :)
Of course you’re both brilliant and I love the concentrated knowledge dump but what’s coming across to me very strongly in this conversation is how kind you both are. Lovely to see!
I stopped the video after Luke said that we have different vowels in "лет" and "здесь", repeated them three times, and felt some very slight difference for the first time in my life, struggling to understand if I just convinced myself in its existence or not. Then Simon said about allophonic ranges, and I was like "yeah, here we are". Maybe someday Russian will end up with 2 or 3 vowel phonemes, and we'll still be alright :) Both variants of the vowel in "знаю" would sound normal for a Russian ear. It's even harder for me to catch such differences in Russian than in English (which is pretty challenging as well). Probably because I know that they don't matter in modern Russian. I love Luke speaking Latin, it sounds so natural and beautiful. Thank you both for this collaboration! I haven't finished watching it yet, but I will.
I've always found fascinating the hard work behind Luke's mastery of Latin.The language really feels alive! Personally, also the sicilian dialects should be used as a proof of the absence of the germanic short "I" and "U". Fun fact: in sicilian "pear" is "piru", and the plural is "pira". Great video!
I watched the whole thing and enjoyed every minute, my two favorite language nerds talking together just is so cool for me to watch because you are so different and I could just watch you interact for hours. 10/10
most of this talk was way above my understanding but I've always found language and accent and its evolution absolutely fascinating. so cool to hear two people (who I've individually followed for a while) discuss this! also as a native hindi speaker I was happily surprised to hear a brief mention of sanskrit. Obviously it comes very naturally to me to say the bh and dh th sounds but I remember trying to get a mate's name correct (he's sudanese) and I couldn't quite get the hang of it. Absolutely fascinating!
Me too, I really wish there was! Jackson Crawford did do a video with a Sanskrit scholar once, but it wasn't too focused on the language, more to do with culture/mythology
Fascinating, would love to listen to both of you talk all day. I wish I personally knew more people like you, with whom I could talk about linguistics topics for two hours without them getting bored.
either of you guys interested in old celtic dialects? Personally Gaulish is absolutely fascinating to me but there are so few easy to digest sources about it... it had some really interesting features to, like for example tau-gallicum, which may have been something like the th in modern English through or it could have been like a German z /ts/, and there is the matter of the cool optative mood which I've heard existed in Gaulish which encodes desire or wish for the event to happen. Gaulish works a lot like Latin and Ancient Greek to, but without the confusing aspiration distinction, and with surprisingly few consonants, all very interesting to me, especially since it was spoken in a wide region from Brittany to the northwest, to central Anatolia to the east, with most of central and western Europe including parts of Italy and possibly Spain included
Fascinating discourse ; impressive erudition. I look forward to more discussions in future. For phonological drift, one only has to note the massive pronunciation differences between danish and swedish, two languages mutually intelligible on the page, but not when spoken.
Native Brazilian Portuguese speaker here. About the L sounds in Portuguese, which you guys discussed at around 18 minutes, I'd say it's velarized at final positions in European Portuguese. However, it's actually completely vocalized in Brazilian Portuguese. So there's a mal-mau merger in Brazilian Portuguese, but not in European Portuguese.
I sympathize with Luke as to mid vowels. I learned French as a Spanish speaker and while /ɔ/ wasn't so bad (it often becomes [ʌ]), learning /e/ and /ɛ/ as different phonemes was rough. Because phonemic /e̞/ allophonically varies between them. And as to Simon's question, I work in EFL with Spanish speskers and the KIT vowel is heard as /i/ for both General American and RP, at least.
30:00 You can get the vowel sound in (British, non-rhotic) "car" without a written r. A famous example is in the word "path" in a stereotypically southern English accent. Funnily enough though, Northerners using a different vowel sound in "path" will tease Southerners by saying: "Why would you pronounce it like that? There's no 'r' in path!" So that's both an example of that vowel sound occurring without an 'r' in the written language and an example of that vowel sound implying an 'r' in people's perceptions!
I misread this as Southern and Northern US dialects and felt very disoriented for a second. Picture how someone from Mississippi would say "parth." That said, it makes me think of how some Midwesterners say "bolth" instead of "both."
Here in the Westcountry (Cornwall, Devon etc), the 'r' in 'car' is pronounced, it is a retroflex r. Westcountry English is rhotic. So I would say the Ford Ka is a car, not the Ford ka is a ka. Also 'path' is pronounced with a long 'æ', it is not 'pahth'. In northern England it is a short 'æ'. The pronunciations you mention are typical London and London overspill areas, plus the influence of RP (itself of London origin).
When Luke speaks of pronouncing Latin with more of an Italian, Spanish, Sardinian, etc sound (~1:30), it makes me think that it's the flip side of the coin if one thinks about it in a geographic and historical sense. As one moves away geographically from Italy (ancient Roma/ Latium), you distance yourself from those more core 'Latin' areas and closer to the periphery of the old Roman empire where there may have been more influence from other languages due to proximity and from migrations/invasions after the fall introducing new substrates and superstates. Over time the vernacular/vulgar Latin/romance in the geographic 'periphery' seems to me to have changed/evolved more (French/langue d'oïl phonetically influenced by Germanic languages, Portuguese/Galician at the literal end of a dialect/language continuum, Romanian an island in a Slavic sea) and I totally think Luke is on the right track in wanting to simulate those intonations (and pronunciations) from romance languages closer to historical Latin's geographic 'core' when attempting to reconstruct the most accurate as possible classical Latin pronunciation.
@@sif_2799 We hardly know the old Gaulish language (or dialects, respectively) that was spoken in antiquity. Only a handful of inscriptions in Gaulish language have remained. Even less we know the pronunciation of that language. Neither do we know whether it had a nasal pronunciation. By the way, the nasalisation was a characteristic of the Romance dialect spoken in the Ile de France in northern France. The southern langues d'oc (Occitan etc.) lack nasalisation.
Since UA-cam definitely doesn't like comments with links and email, I was forced to rewrite the one I wrote earlier (with some additions). Native Russian speaker here: 20:29 Luke pronounced the /lʲ/ sound a bit too soft, almost like Italian ⟨ɡl⟩ [ʎ], while it's, in fact, closer to British English "light" or clear L ([l]; Russian /lʲ/ is often realised as [lʲ]). 20:39 The /e/ phoneme gets realised as [e] after palatized consonants regardless of quality of consonant following it. It's just that palatized consonants that follow [e] make the difference a bit more noticeable. 21:05 Vowel reduction is a thing in Russian. But there are not that many allophones as one might think. To put it simply (in order to not make this comment too long and cumbersome to read), there are 5 phonemes in Russian (or 6, but I don't include /ɨ/ as a phoneme here, as it's phonemicity is still debatable): /a/, /o/, /u/, /i/, /e/. Only three of these phonemes tend to be significantly (to the point of merging) reduced in unstressed positions: /a/ (reduces to either [ɐ] or [ə]), /o/ (reduces to either [ɐ], [ə]) and /e/ (reduces to [ɪ]). /i/ and /u/ aren't reduced as noticeably. 22:45 Luke probably got a wrong transcription there. It's [ˈznajʊ] or [ˈznajʊ̈]. [æ] in Russian is an allophone of /a/ after palatslized consonants. If you're interested in deeper dive into Russian, just email me or contact me via Telegram or Discord.
In Catalan we say "foc" as well as in Romanian, but most romance languages don't. There are some sound and word structure similarities between these two romance languages that evolve seperately, what an interesting coincidence!
In Furlàn (dialect of Friuli, the area of Italy closest to Slovenia) they say fuc In other areas of northern Italy we say fögu, which seems like a reasonable approximation of the early french for fire: [fokus]>[fɵɡuh]>[føɡu]>[føɣʊ]>[føɣə]>[føːə]>[fø]
I would like to add that regionally (Wallachia), some Romanian accents have "foc" pronounced as "fuoc" as in most Italian languages. It's mostly considered "basilectal"/"uneducated", but it is very much present and has been for centuries.
Yes, the word was borrowed into German at a time when the Romans still pronounced the diphthong “ae” and had a “hard k-sound” at the beginning. So German “Kaiser” is a kind of fossilised Latin pronunciation, a bit like Finnish “kunningas” preserves the Proto-Germanic nominative ending of *kunningaz ‘king’.
Having said the above, the word “Kaiser” did undergo a phonological journey within German, going from Germanic *ai to Old (High) German *ei and then back to the /ae/ pronunciation of in Modern German, though spelt .
“I sawr it”- Pronunciation I heard often in the American south in and around New Orleans, but I think in people from rural areas in southeast Louisiana & nearby Mississippi.
I’m so out of my depth here but i find this fascinating I also say rum and room interchangeably, from the New England. Both are totally normal to my ears. The linking R thing is so noticeable as well to me. Sounds like Harry Potter for an entire generation of kids, very very British.
About aspiration in modern European or at least Germanic languages: in my local dialect of German (around Frankfurt), "P" usually switches to "B". As a child, I had always wondered how we are able to distinguish these sounds that differ in Standard German but to me were supposed to be the same. I now think it's possible that an aspirated "B" has taken the place of "P" locally. "Banane", for example, has a different "B" than "Babbsack"(local insult) to my ears. The latter one is the one I think of as aspirated.
@I Love Memes : In my swabian dialect, we call the Bollezei, soldiers are fighting in the ,Griag' and we are ,doud' , when being in the coffin. I know this phenomeon also! But a ,Dote' is a ,Taufpatin'.
I am not catalan native speaker but do not forget catalan!!! it is a very good source to compare!! also foc, or another similarity with romanian is the participes crescut nascut etc.. Catalan is good to take with infintives and sustantives
Extremely interesting and refeshing. Please can you do more of such interactive videos whereby you introduce someone knowledgeable like you and make a dialogue about the subject matter? Thank you.
Luke, your Brazilian Portuguese is mostly perfect. It's carnAval; something interesting took place with that old E there and it became A. You're good to go, sir. :)
This 2-hours-long conversation between two of my favorite channels taught me enough material I could learn by reading for hours. I am also happy to hear Raphael Turrigiano and A. Z. Foreman's names. I enjoy and respect all the work you people bring through social media.
They implications of some comparative grammar studies are that various rural/African American dialects reflect grammar and speech used in certain regional dialects in England.
Awesome to see this! On the topic of "things preserved a really long time" in English discussed at ua-cam.com/video/9KhPVWXpNIc/v-deo.html , something I'd love to know more about is the preservation of "am" as the first person singular to "to be". This is the case in Farsi as well, but exists as the first person singular suffix (-am) in written Farsi but can be used standalone when spoked as "I am" e.g. "khoobam" -> "I am good."
OMG! Two of the greats meet up! Like a lingustic geeky version of Superheros!! aurwm = awr in Welsh too. (hour) from Brythonic contact with Latin, I'm guessing.
I find this linking “r” in many british speakers when they say “America(r)” and almost anything which ends with “a” like “China(r)” these only appear if some other word which starts with a vowel follows it. So a british speaker will most likely say “America” if asked to say it, but if asked to say “America is……” they would probably say “America(r) is”
I'm sure most of you Latin based language aficionados out there will know this already but the -di pronunciation used as an alternative to the more commonly used -day at the end of days of the week in English is funnily enough similar to the stressed -dì used at the end of day names in Italian, with "dì" being a synonym of "giorno=day". e.g Lunedì - Monday. This concept in particular also similarly applies to the days of the week in other Romance languages...
@@amandachapman4708 I guess it is because it was a recent change in the calendar day names, so the di element (from dies) was in the front, then -manche (dominicus) follows like how most adjectives in Romance. The name change corresponds to the Christianization of the later Empire, Saturday and Sunday were significant days of rest and worship, so the former Pagan names were disregarded, while the weekdays were fossilized, divorced of any former religious significance. Similar in English, all the day names are pagan in origin, they don't actually have religious meaning anymore.
@@amandachapman4708 The best explanation of French day names I've seen was on the French Mornings with Elisa channel: ua-cam.com/video/Q0zz4RmW1Es/v-deo.html
Thank you both for this amazing collab! [Personal timestamps] 17:29 as a native speaker of Br Portuguese, this made me laugh a bit 22:10 easypronunciation website 30:22 the "linking R thing", and "memory of the sound" 44:11 cultural appropriation 50:20 language changes in its literary tradition 1:19:17 /'coizɐ/ for "thing", right. Also, /'cadɐ 'dʒiɐ/ for "each day", but /'todʊ 'dʒiɐ/ for "every day". 1:39:36 the way people see language will probably mark more as I keep watching
One pronunciation that I heard quite a bit growing up in central Texas in the ‘60s and ‘70s but is now rare is “can’t” rhyming with “paint.” Makes me nostalgic!
The song “I’m just a girl who cain’t say no” (from the musical Oklahoma, lyrics by Oscar Hammerstein) has the rhymes cain’t/ quaint/ paint. Written in the early 1940s.
Thank you for this interesting talk! I've binged though a few polýMATHY videos, they're super interesting - especially the one where Luke talks to Italians in Roman.
38:11 when they mention adding an h to the beginning of a word starting with a vowel reminds me of many people from the Appalachian mountains that like to add h to the beginning of words with vowels. Those people are descendants of mostly Scottish, Irish, and I believe northern English speakers. So they would say something like “get on with hit.” Very interesting 🤔
Hey!! Great video!! .(My english is quite limited, sorry for that) Could I ask for a video about the guttural ''R'' that you can find in (obviously) German and French but also in Portuguese and, surprisingly, in Italian (northern dialects)? If it is not much bother... Thank you
I find it interesting to see how external forces change accents and/or dialects within a language sometimes to the point of changing the language. It would be cool to see like a map of all the languages/dialects of Europe with a common word and its variations. Something that is cognate in both German and Latin for example.
1:46:19 I think it's also like Middle English, which had short /e/, spelled ⟨e⟩, long /e:/, spelled ⟨ee⟩, and /ε:/, spelled ⟨ea⟩. Also similar is that they both (mostly) ended up as [i] in both Modern Greek and many dialects of Modern English.
At 1:05:00 what would most probably have more mutual intelligibility than Germanic languages would be one of the Celtic languages, ideally someone who speaks Old Irish. I've read that Latin and Celtic form a sub-branch of Indo-European, and that there are words thought to be loan-words, quite old, about which there's debate as to whether the Celts borrowed them from Latin or the other way round.
I wish there was a link for the hundreds of different dialects of Romance languages that Luke mentioned (*wink* *wink*). Would really love to see the difference between even the smallest variations in dialects of say French and Castilian Spanish.
Wow Luke. I grew up in NE Kansas and I realized I say rug for roof and my mom says the days as dee (i.e. Tuesdee)…I moved to Colorado about 20 years ago then realized I had a regional accent.
1:03:55 PLEASE this would be such a great resource; I've yet to find many OE learning materials that really focus on more conversational phrases and expressions. Of course, learning grammar and vocabulary by examining texts like Bēowulf is vital for anyone learning about OE, but to have a comprehensive collection of words/phrases that feel truly "natural" and conversational would, I imagine, make the language feel a bit more accessible to the average learner
Thanks for making me discover A.Z. Foreman! Btw you can clearly hear his native accent in his video titled "Aeneid 1.195-209 (Aeneas comforts his men) read in Latin and English translation"
Modern Greek pronunciation of Beta as V was such a surprise to be - and what was more a surprise is how now they get the B sound with Mu and Pi (μπ - mp). I wonder if this is why Russian used B for V (Ve) and Б as B (Be). Other diphthongs which are cool - gk (γκ) for G because Gamma is now more of a ye in YEllow sound and ng in thiNG, and nt (ντ) for D because Delta is now like th in English THen/Welsh dd/Icelandic ð
I'm Australian. We have the same 'linking R', of course. Most people with a non-rhotic accent don't notice it. Even when it has been pointed out, some can hardly believe it.
Ruf for 'roof' and 'huf' for 'hoof' is exactly how it is pronounced in Norfolk and Suffolk -also 'WednesDEE' is the same. Also: 'tuth' for 'tooth' and so on - these surely went into some south eastern accents, back in the migration to London, from south east, during industrial era - OR, it is an older English style.
20:46 the E vowel in "лет" and "здесь" has much more ae to it. not enough ae-ing, as a Russian speaker i advise you to ae more or maybe even closer to [ɛ], i think, somewhere between ae and ɛ 22:31, "знаю" - you nailed it & both pronounciations are acceptable
I understand your struggle: you are probably from a Sicilian speaking area, or from Sardinia. Don't worry, also the northeners mess up with the "e" and the "o": notice how they usually pronounce "béne" with a closed "é"...
@@esti-od1mz nope, I'm from a very peculiar area in Abruzzo. The thing is, I can tell apart the different qualities of the vowels, but i can't really reproduce them and the thing kinda bothers me because i wanted to learn proper pronunciation.
@@esti-od1mz yes, i know, basically every regional accent has a different distribution of vowels "aperte" e "chiuse" compered to the standard language. But at least they have those vowels in their phonological inventory.
@@slowmolife4289 capisco perfettamente la tua lotta... le distinguo, ma faccio fatica anch'io. Non sapevo che in Abruzzo ci fossero aree di dialetto pentavocalico! Mea culpa, i dialetti in Italia sono tanti e non li conosco tutti... saluti dalla Sicilia
Funnily enough, standard Italian formally accepts that é and è have stopped corresponding precisely to unstressed/stressed, but not ó and ò - and yet, to me, as a northerner, it just seems like the distribution of both e and o is completely arbitrary.
My theory for the 'intrusive' R is that it's mostly an indirect product of derhoticization. Because even with final R's gone, they have the potential to reappear when the following phoneme is a vowel. Normally this would require an unconscious memorization of which words gain this phantom R and which do not, so i think the british unconscious just favored giving EVERY word with a final vowel phoneme the phantom R.
I agree entirely with that but confusion arises when people say ‘intrusive r’ to refer to two different phenomena: firstly, the British (mainly English really) habit of saying ‘Laura Norder’ for ‘law and order’; secondly, the random insertion of r’s before consonants and at the end of words by some Americans (eg, ‘warsh’ for ‘wash’ and ‘feller/potater’ for ‘fellow/potato’).
16:23. it's common in South Wales to pronounce TOOTH with the 'foot' vowel. I remember being laughed at for this when I went to an English university in the early 80's.
LL in Icelandic, old Norse and some Norwegian dialects (although in the Norwegian often still written as lt or tl) is similar to Welsh LL - the adjacent stop and liquid merge into a fricative. In Icelandic I believe there is some over correction where gemminated l is mistaken for the fricative. Note although the merger of LD to LL is written in ON, this development does not appear in most of Scandinavia except for some Norwegian dialects (possibly because the d had already become a fricative rather than a stop in the West)
Current pronunciations don't necessarily reflect recent changes in Latin descendants. If we look at even modern speakers of English want new speech population has their own pronunciation. We have to distinguish between classical showing and local vernaculars in different regions. As another example East Norse languages are supposed to show certain vowel changes from Old Norse, but the East Germanic languages from the same area, but split of much earlier than Proto-Norse, show the same differences, which should obey that these changes in East Norse actually pre-exist classical Old Norse (eastern inscriptions in proto-Norse sometimes back this up)
Loving this sudden explosion in collaborations across the UA-cam languages sphere! Both you and Luke make me wish I had known about linguistics back in high school, I think I definitely would've pursued it in university. Glad to see you two together!
It's never too late to learn! Maybe you can take a part time course or something
It’s great fun but you would’ve needed a solid plan. There are plenty of jobs where meta skills like communication is important but there are very few Linguistics-centered positions outside of academia. And academia is usually very competitive. But that also depends where you are; some language-specific departments actually have a hard time recruiting PhD candidates or even master’s students.
I did pursue it in university, but realized I was just as miserable there as I was in computer science, so I quit.
@@WaywardSon1 I did pursue linguistics in college and covet it in these moments but otherwise it collects dust in my closet.
Taking Honors Latin in high school (being a household Spanish speaker) which furthered my interest in linguistics, resulted in me finding an interest in Old English (being a native English speaker), so to witness this collaboration between two of my favorite UA-cam linguistic channels is a godsend
I'm a native Spanish speaker, and to comment on what you guys were talking about:
-The five vowel system is surprisingly stable. Almost all varieties of Spanish without foreign influence have the same five vowels with very little variation. There is allophonic variation of the vowels depending on whether they are in closed or open syllables, but in my subjective experience, it is very minor, especially in comparison to the allophonic variation of consonants, which can be much greater. Some southern Spain varieties have open versions of the vowels before dropped "s", which gives them effectively a 10 vowel system and some Mexican varieties neutralize /a/ /e/ and /o/ between "s"s in unstressed syllables (pronouncing both "pesos," "pesas" and "peces" sort of like "pes's"). But other than that, vowels don't change dramatically. I do think they may sound slightly different from accent to accent, but nowhere near as much as the consonants, which vary tremendously.
-The English /ɪ/ in isolation is almost always heard as an /i/ by native Spanish speakers, they usually have a hard time hearing the differences between the two. I would say the unstressed version of the vowel, like in "painted" may sound more like a /e/ to a Spanish speaker. It is a bit hard for me to say, because for some reason the distinction between the KIT and FLEECE vowels was one of the first non-Spanish distinctions I started to be able to hear as a child studying English, but I remember the song "We Will Rock You" was very popular when I was a child who couldn't speak English and I always sang it as "wi *wel* rak yu" before I could speak English. I don't know if it was because of the influence of the dark "l" in "will," because of the unstressed nature of the modal verb (which I doubt, since it's not unstressed in the song), or if I heard it closer to an /e/ because I had never actually seen the title written down and the spelling didn't influence my perception. Which brings me to another thing, which is that the way spelling and/or the way the English language was sort of "adapted" to Spanish pronunciation historically affects the way Spanish speakers pronounce English words, and that subsequently influences the way we actually perceive native English pronunciation, and this differs from country to country. One example is the English STRUT vowel, which Argentinians (like me) hear like the Spanish /a/, and therefore unironically, unintentionally confuse it with the TRAP vowels sound, pronouncing both "cat" and "cut" as though they were spelled "cat" in Spanish. However, Mexicans perceive the STRUT vowel like a Spanish /o/, and that's how they pronounce it, so that "cat" sounds like Spanish spelled "cat," and both "cut" and "caught" sound like Spanish spelled "cot." It is something that has often fascinated me, because I honestly believe they hear those vowels differently because of the influence of the historical Spanish adaptation of English. In fact, in Argentina, people can't hear the difference between the "sh" sound and the "j" sound in English, but CAN hear the difference between those sounds and the English "y" sound, whereas Mexicans struggle with the "j" and the "y," but to them the "sh" sounds like the "ch."
I have, like, no time for a 2 hour talk between you two, but... I'm going to have to make some this week. I don't care what you both end up talking about. It's going to be worth it.
Watch in 2x speed
Listen to things whilst doing other things. I mainly only listen to things whilst cleaning, driving, gardening, organising, working etc. There's so many opportunities.
@@soulfulserenity403 thats even batter, do listen to stuff in 2x speed while doing some other things
@@abhinavchauhan7864 yes depending on what it is I'll listen at faster speeds that suit the video and my activity :) excellent combo options available
@@soulfulserenity403 It's a good idea, and I love listening to things while I'm cleaning, folding laundry, etc. But I'm a writer, so if I have to work, nothing with speech is allowed unfortunately. :)
Of course you’re both brilliant and I love the concentrated knowledge dump but what’s coming across to me very strongly in this conversation is how kind you both are. Lovely to see!
That's very sweet, thank you :) I'll pass this on to Luke!
I stopped the video after Luke said that we have different vowels in "лет" and "здесь", repeated them three times, and felt some very slight difference for the first time in my life, struggling to understand if I just convinced myself in its existence or not. Then Simon said about allophonic ranges, and I was like "yeah, here we are". Maybe someday Russian will end up with 2 or 3 vowel phonemes, and we'll still be alright :) Both variants of the vowel in "знаю" would sound normal for a Russian ear.
It's even harder for me to catch such differences in Russian than in English (which is pretty challenging as well). Probably because I know that they don't matter in modern Russian.
I love Luke speaking Latin, it sounds so natural and beautiful. Thank you both for this collaboration! I haven't finished watching it yet, but I will.
They are incredible.... these fellers
The greatest crossover event in history
Two beautiful voices. Love hearing the British and American tones.
I've always found fascinating the hard work behind Luke's mastery of Latin.The language really feels alive! Personally, also the sicilian dialects should be used as a proof of the absence of the germanic short "I" and "U".
Fun fact: in sicilian "pear" is "piru", and the plural is "pira".
Great video!
He's an inspiration! I really hope to get my fluency up to that level.
@@Correctrix I agree. He should be an ispiration, especially for youngsters!
Two of my favourite channels collaborating together is something you rarely see. Truly grateful for this.
the crossover I've been waiting for!
I watched the whole thing and enjoyed every minute, my two favorite language nerds talking together just is so cool for me to watch because you are so different and I could just watch you interact for hours. 10/10
This is a surprise to be sure, but a welcome one!
Two of my favorite linguistics youtubers talking about languages for 2 hours? Of course I'll always have time for that
Two awesome guys having a conversation for two hours?
I'm in.
most of this talk was way above my understanding but I've always found language and accent and its evolution absolutely fascinating. so cool to hear two people (who I've individually followed for a while) discuss this! also as a native hindi speaker I was happily surprised to hear a brief mention of sanskrit. Obviously it comes very naturally to me to say the bh and dh th sounds but I remember trying to get a mate's name correct (he's sudanese) and I couldn't quite get the hang of it. Absolutely fascinating!
Best collabortions happening. What a time to be alive!
Many blessings upon this friendship!
Two of my favorites. Good morning, gentlemen, and thanks as always for your efforts.
Now Crystal in the conversation! This is so wonderful a convo!
Two of my favourite UA-camrs have come together! Happy 2022 indeed!!
I shouldn't even be awake, but I've needed this video for such a long time! Thank you so much!
Captivating discussion. Thank you.
Two of my favorite channels collaborating!!
This was fantastic!! Thank you both for collaborating, its awesome and such a gift.
Is there a Luke Ranieri except for Sanskrit? That's all I want for Christmas.
Me too, I really wish there was! Jackson Crawford did do a video with a Sanskrit scholar once, but it wasn't too focused on the language, more to do with culture/mythology
It would be cool if Luke tried learning it, it's surprisingly similar to Latin and ancient Greek lol
Try Gabriella Burnel
Also, ‘Sanskrit Sense’
Fascinating, would love to listen to both of you talk all day.
I wish I personally knew more people like you, with whom I could talk about linguistics topics for two hours without them getting bored.
either of you guys interested in old celtic dialects? Personally Gaulish is absolutely fascinating to me but there are so few easy to digest sources about it... it had some really interesting features to, like for example tau-gallicum, which may have been something like the th in modern English through or it could have been like a German z /ts/, and there is the matter of the cool optative mood which I've heard existed in Gaulish which encodes desire or wish for the event to happen.
Gaulish works a lot like Latin and Ancient Greek to, but without the confusing aspiration distinction, and with surprisingly few consonants, all very interesting to me, especially since it was spoken in a wide region from Brittany to the northwest, to central Anatolia to the east, with most of central and western Europe including parts of Italy and possibly Spain included
Wow a 2 for the price of 1 video! I love these two both! Fan of both!
Fascinating discourse ; impressive erudition. I look forward to more discussions in future. For phonological drift, one only has to note the massive pronunciation differences between danish and swedish, two languages mutually intelligible on the page, but not when spoken.
That was extremely enjoyable and informative. Thanks to you both.
Native Brazilian Portuguese speaker here. About the L sounds in Portuguese, which you guys discussed at around 18 minutes, I'd say it's velarized at final positions in European Portuguese. However, it's actually completely vocalized in Brazilian Portuguese. So there's a mal-mau merger in Brazilian Portuguese, but not in European Portuguese.
Love you guys.
I love Luke's channel. His videos of him critiquing Latin in media really fascinates me.
I sympathize with Luke as to mid vowels. I learned French as a Spanish speaker and while /ɔ/ wasn't so bad (it often becomes [ʌ]), learning /e/ and /ɛ/ as different phonemes was rough. Because phonemic /e̞/ allophonically varies between them. And as to Simon's question, I work in EFL with Spanish speskers and the KIT vowel is heard as /i/ for both General American and RP, at least.
Brilliant videos - thanks!
Profesor Croford is one of the people with high education and very noticable regional accent.
Omg this is great, two of my top 3 linguistics channels. Now we just need Alex from exploring Esperanto
Enjoyed this a lot. Keen to get those extra links you promised in the description too. Cheers Simon.
30:00 You can get the vowel sound in (British, non-rhotic) "car" without a written r. A famous example is in the word "path" in a stereotypically southern English accent. Funnily enough though, Northerners using a different vowel sound in "path" will tease Southerners by saying: "Why would you pronounce it like that? There's no 'r' in path!" So that's both an example of that vowel sound occurring without an 'r' in the written language and an example of that vowel sound implying an 'r' in people's perceptions!
[parːθ] lmao
I misread this as Southern and Northern US dialects and felt very disoriented for a second.
Picture how someone from Mississippi would say "parth."
That said, it makes me think of how some Midwesterners say "bolth" instead of "both."
Here in the Westcountry (Cornwall, Devon etc), the 'r' in 'car' is pronounced, it is a retroflex r. Westcountry English is rhotic. So I would say the Ford Ka is a car, not the Ford ka is a ka. Also 'path' is pronounced with a long 'æ', it is not 'pahth'. In northern England it is a short 'æ'. The pronunciations you mention are typical London and London overspill areas, plus the influence of RP (itself of London origin).
Warsh
'Father' has that vowel too. It's even homophonous with 'farther' in non-rhotic dialects.
Love these two
how exciting!!
When Luke speaks of pronouncing Latin with more of an Italian, Spanish, Sardinian, etc sound (~1:30), it makes me think that it's the flip side of the coin if one thinks about it in a geographic and historical sense. As one moves away geographically from Italy (ancient Roma/ Latium), you distance yourself from those more core 'Latin' areas and closer to the periphery of the old Roman empire where there may have been more influence from other languages due to proximity and from migrations/invasions after the fall introducing new substrates and superstates. Over time the vernacular/vulgar Latin/romance in the geographic 'periphery' seems to me to have changed/evolved more (French/langue d'oïl phonetically influenced by Germanic languages, Portuguese/Galician at the literal end of a dialect/language continuum, Romanian an island in a Slavic sea) and I totally think Luke is on the right track in wanting to simulate those intonations (and pronunciations) from romance languages closer to historical Latin's geographic 'core' when attempting to reconstruct the most accurate as possible classical Latin pronunciation.
French was more influenced by Gaulish and Breton phonetically than Germanic languages. That's where it got it's characteristic nasalisation from.
Those languages are all "dialects" of Latin! 😏
@@sif_2799 We hardly know the old Gaulish language (or dialects, respectively) that was spoken in antiquity. Only a handful of inscriptions in Gaulish language have remained. Even less we know the pronunciation of that language. Neither do we know whether it had a nasal pronunciation. By the way, the nasalisation was a characteristic of the Romance dialect spoken in the Ile de France in northern France. The southern langues d'oc (Occitan etc.) lack nasalisation.
Since UA-cam definitely doesn't like comments with links and email, I was forced to rewrite the one I wrote earlier (with some additions).
Native Russian speaker here:
20:29 Luke pronounced the /lʲ/ sound a bit too soft, almost like Italian ⟨ɡl⟩ [ʎ], while it's, in fact, closer to British English "light" or clear L ([l]; Russian /lʲ/ is often realised as [lʲ]).
20:39 The /e/ phoneme gets realised as [e] after palatized consonants regardless of quality of consonant following it. It's just that palatized consonants that follow [e] make the difference a bit more noticeable.
21:05 Vowel reduction is a thing in Russian. But there are not that many allophones as one might think.
To put it simply (in order to not make this comment too long and cumbersome to read), there are 5 phonemes in Russian (or 6, but I don't include /ɨ/ as a phoneme here, as it's phonemicity is still debatable): /a/, /o/, /u/, /i/, /e/.
Only three of these phonemes tend to be significantly (to the point of merging) reduced in unstressed positions: /a/ (reduces to either [ɐ] or [ə]), /o/ (reduces to either [ɐ], [ə]) and /e/ (reduces to [ɪ]).
/i/ and /u/ aren't reduced as noticeably.
22:45 Luke probably got a wrong transcription there. It's [ˈznajʊ] or [ˈznajʊ̈].
[æ] in Russian is an allophone of /a/ after palatslized consonants.
If you're interested in deeper dive into Russian, just email me or contact me via Telegram or Discord.
I loved the teaser foreshadowing my favorite gentleman from beautiful Colorado. If you three did a Latin Anglo-Saxon Old Norse chat we’d be in heaven.
Massive props for shouting out A. Z. Foreman! He really is the best at what he does
In Catalan we say "foc" as well as in Romanian, but most romance languages don't. There are some sound and word structure similarities between these two romance languages that evolve seperately, what an interesting coincidence!
In Furlàn (dialect of Friuli, the area of Italy closest to Slovenia) they say fuc
In other areas of northern Italy we say fögu, which seems like a reasonable approximation of the early french for fire: [fokus]>[fɵɡuh]>[føɡu]>[føɣʊ]>[føɣə]>[føːə]>[fø]
I would like to add that regionally (Wallachia), some Romanian accents have "foc" pronounced as "fuoc" as in most Italian languages. It's mostly considered "basilectal"/"uneducated", but it is very much present and has been for centuries.
1:48:29 when Luke says Caesar it reminded me of the German word "Kaiser". Is there any link there?
Yes, the word was borrowed into German at a time when the Romans still pronounced the diphthong “ae” and had a “hard k-sound” at the beginning. So German “Kaiser” is a kind of fossilised Latin pronunciation, a bit like Finnish “kunningas” preserves the Proto-Germanic nominative ending of *kunningaz ‘king’.
Having said the above, the word “Kaiser” did undergo a phonological journey within German, going from Germanic *ai to Old (High) German *ei and then back to the /ae/ pronunciation of in Modern German, though spelt .
@@morvil73 Amazing, I forgot I'd asked this - but that's such a cool link. Thank you!
The greatest crossover in linguistics history!
Amateur linguistics, maybe. Let’s not enrage the real-deal scholars
@@mysigt_ oh, let’s do enrage them!
What an absolute pleasure to listen to you two talk. Great job and very informative 😊
Retvrn to Tradition: The Great Debate
“I sawr it”- Pronunciation I heard often in the American south in and around New Orleans, but I think in people from rural areas in southeast Louisiana & nearby Mississippi.
I’m so out of my depth here but i find this fascinating
I also say rum and room interchangeably, from the New England. Both are totally normal to my ears.
The linking R thing is so noticeable as well to me. Sounds like Harry Potter for an entire generation of kids, very very British.
Luke's impression of the Greek historical linguist yelling "Vii vii!" killed me.
the old english script thing sounds amazing!!
Two of my favorites on one video... Yeah I'm watching this
About aspiration in modern European or at least Germanic languages: in my local dialect of German (around Frankfurt), "P" usually switches to "B". As a child, I had always wondered how we are able to distinguish these sounds that differ in Standard German but to me were supposed to be the same. I now think it's possible that an aspirated "B" has taken the place of "P" locally. "Banane", for example, has a different "B" than "Babbsack"(local insult) to my ears. The latter one is the one I think of as aspirated.
@I Love Memes : In my swabian dialect, we call the Bollezei, soldiers are fighting in the ,Griag' and we are ,doud' , when being in the coffin. I know this phenomeon also! But a ,Dote' is a ,Taufpatin'.
I am not catalan native speaker but do not forget catalan!!! it is a very good source to compare!! also foc, or another similarity with romanian is the participes crescut nascut etc.. Catalan is good to take with infintives and sustantives
Thanks for introducing me to A.Z. Foreman.
Extremely interesting and refeshing. Please can you do more of such interactive videos whereby you introduce someone knowledgeable like you and make a dialogue about the subject matter? Thank you.
Wow came on just as I was on your channel
my faves collabing :)
I feel like an intellectual watching Simon Roper videos
Luke, your Brazilian Portuguese is mostly perfect. It's carnAval; something interesting took place with that old E there and it became A. You're good to go, sir. :)
This 2-hours-long conversation between two of my favorite channels taught me enough material I could learn by reading for hours. I am also happy to hear Raphael Turrigiano and A. Z. Foreman's names. I enjoy and respect all the work you people bring through social media.
They implications of some comparative grammar studies are that various rural/African American dialects reflect grammar and speech used in certain regional dialects in England.
Awesome to see this!
On the topic of "things preserved a really long time" in English discussed at ua-cam.com/video/9KhPVWXpNIc/v-deo.html , something I'd love to know more about is the preservation of "am" as the first person singular to "to be". This is the case in Farsi as well, but exists as the first person singular suffix (-am) in written Farsi but can be used standalone when spoked as "I am" e.g. "khoobam" -> "I am good."
OMG! Two of the greats meet up! Like a lingustic geeky version of Superheros!!
aurwm = awr in Welsh too. (hour) from Brythonic contact with Latin, I'm guessing.
I find this linking “r” in many british speakers when they say “America(r)” and almost anything which ends with “a” like “China(r)” these only appear if some other word which starts with a vowel follows it. So a british speaker will most likely say “America” if asked to say it, but if asked to say “America is……” they would probably say “America(r) is”
Also “drawing” is said like “draw(r)ing” by many speakers”
Over corrected H occurs in other Germanic languages as well, especially if the word is unclear or unfamiliar.
I'm sure most of you Latin based language aficionados out there will know this already but the -di pronunciation used as an alternative to the more commonly used -day at the end of days of the week in English is funnily enough similar to the stressed -dì used at the end of day names in Italian, with "dì" being a synonym of "giorno=day". e.g Lunedì - Monday. This concept in particular also similarly applies to the days of the week in other Romance languages...
I would like to know why French Sunday = Dimanche has the "di" element at the beginning of the word while the rest of the days have it at the end.
@@amandachapman4708 I guess it is because it was a recent change in the calendar day names, so the di element (from dies) was in the front, then -manche (dominicus) follows like how most adjectives in Romance. The name change corresponds to the Christianization of the later Empire, Saturday and Sunday were significant days of rest and worship, so the former Pagan names were disregarded, while the weekdays were fossilized, divorced of any former religious significance.
Similar in English, all the day names are pagan in origin, they don't actually have religious meaning anymore.
@@amandachapman4708 The best explanation of French day names I've seen was on the French Mornings with Elisa channel: ua-cam.com/video/Q0zz4RmW1Es/v-deo.html
As Luke proposed, it would be huge fun to have Luke and Simon try to imitate each other's accents. 😂
Thank you both for this amazing collab!
[Personal timestamps]
17:29 as a native speaker of Br Portuguese, this made me laugh a bit
22:10 easypronunciation website
30:22 the "linking R thing", and "memory of the sound"
44:11 cultural appropriation
50:20 language changes in its literary tradition
1:19:17 /'coizɐ/ for "thing", right.
Also, /'cadɐ 'dʒiɐ/ for "each day", but /'todʊ 'dʒiɐ/ for "every day".
1:39:36 the way people see language
will probably mark more as I keep watching
One pronunciation that I heard quite a bit growing up in central Texas in the ‘60s and ‘70s but is now rare is “can’t” rhyming with “paint.” Makes me nostalgic!
The song “I’m just a girl who cain’t say no” (from the musical Oklahoma, lyrics by Oscar Hammerstein) has the rhymes cain’t/ quaint/ paint. Written in the early 1940s.
I still hear that in SC to this day. You might hear "I cain't and I ain't gon do it!" Meaning I can't and I won't do it, lol.
Thank you for this interesting talk! I've binged though a few
polýMATHY videos, they're super interesting - especially the one where Luke talks to Italians in Roman.
38:11 when they mention adding an h to the beginning of a word starting with a vowel reminds me of many people from the Appalachian mountains that like to add h to the beginning of words with vowels. Those people are descendants of mostly Scottish, Irish, and I believe northern English speakers. So they would say something like “get on with hit.” Very interesting 🤔
Hey!! Great video!!
.(My english is quite limited, sorry for that) Could I ask for a video about the guttural ''R'' that you can find in (obviously) German and French but also in Portuguese and, surprisingly, in Italian (northern dialects)? If it is not much bother... Thank you
Write the book! It would be amazing, I would buy it.
I find it interesting to see how external forces change accents and/or dialects within a language sometimes to the point of changing the language. It would be cool to see like a map of all the languages/dialects of Europe with a common word and its variations. Something that is cognate in both German and Latin for example.
Baldric needs to meet Decimvs Helvidivs Rvfvs
1:46:19 I think it's also like Middle English, which had short /e/, spelled ⟨e⟩, long /e:/, spelled ⟨ee⟩, and /ε:/, spelled ⟨ea⟩. Also similar is that they both (mostly) ended up as [i] in both Modern Greek and many dialects of Modern English.
At 1:05:00 what would most probably have more mutual intelligibility than Germanic languages would be one of the Celtic languages, ideally someone who speaks Old Irish. I've read that Latin and Celtic form a sub-branch of Indo-European, and that there are words thought to be loan-words, quite old, about which there's debate as to whether the Celts borrowed them from Latin or the other way round.
omg you two! together!
That is all.
Loved this! I am 100% down for an Old English conversational book - maybe something akin to Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata?
I love you both!
I wish there was a link for the hundreds of different dialects of Romance languages that Luke mentioned (*wink* *wink*). Would really love to see the difference between even the smallest variations in dialects of say French and Castilian Spanish.
Wow Luke. I grew up in NE Kansas and I realized I say rug for roof and my mom says the days as dee (i.e. Tuesdee)…I moved to Colorado about 20 years ago then realized I had a regional accent.
1:03:55 PLEASE this would be such a great resource; I've yet to find many OE learning materials that really focus on more conversational phrases and expressions. Of course, learning grammar and vocabulary by examining texts like Bēowulf is vital for anyone learning about OE, but to have a comprehensive collection of words/phrases that feel truly "natural" and conversational would, I imagine, make the language feel a bit more accessible to the average learner
Thanks for making me discover A.Z. Foreman! Btw you can clearly hear his native accent in his video titled "Aeneid 1.195-209 (Aeneas comforts his men) read in Latin and English translation"
to add complexity, Animals demonstrate local accents too
Modern Greek pronunciation of Beta as V was such a surprise to be - and what was more a surprise is how now they get the B sound with Mu and Pi (μπ - mp). I wonder if this is why Russian used B for V (Ve) and Б as B (Be).
Other diphthongs which are cool - gk (γκ) for G because Gamma is now more of a ye in YEllow sound and ng in thiNG, and nt (ντ) for D because Delta is now like th in English THen/Welsh dd/Icelandic ð
I'm Australian. We have the same 'linking R', of course. Most people with a non-rhotic accent don't notice it. Even when it has been pointed out, some can hardly believe it.
Ruf for 'roof' and 'huf' for 'hoof' is exactly how it is pronounced in Norfolk and Suffolk -also 'WednesDEE' is the same. Also: 'tuth' for 'tooth' and so on - these surely went into some south eastern accents, back in the migration to London, from south east, during industrial era - OR, it is an older English style.
Do you say ‘tuth’ with the PUT-vowel (like in Birmingham, South Wales and occasionally Northern Ireland) or the CUT-vowel?
20:46 the E vowel in "лет" and "здесь" has much more ae to it. not enough ae-ing, as a Russian speaker i advise you to ae more
or maybe even closer to [ɛ], i think, somewhere between ae and ɛ
22:31, "знаю" - you nailed it & both pronounciations are acceptable
"I was trying to distinguish between "e" and "ɛ" and "ɔ" and "o" as italians do".
Me, an italian with a penta-vocalic accent: 😐
I understand your struggle: you are probably from a Sicilian speaking area, or from Sardinia. Don't worry, also the northeners mess up with the "e" and the "o": notice how they usually pronounce "béne" with a closed "é"...
@@esti-od1mz nope, I'm from a very peculiar area in Abruzzo. The thing is, I can tell apart the different qualities of the vowels, but i can't really reproduce them and the thing kinda bothers me because i wanted to learn proper pronunciation.
@@esti-od1mz yes, i know, basically every regional accent has a different distribution of vowels "aperte" e "chiuse" compered to the standard language. But at least they have those vowels in their phonological inventory.
@@slowmolife4289 capisco perfettamente la tua lotta... le distinguo, ma faccio fatica anch'io. Non sapevo che in Abruzzo ci fossero aree di dialetto pentavocalico! Mea culpa, i dialetti in Italia sono tanti e non li conosco tutti... saluti dalla Sicilia
Funnily enough, standard Italian formally accepts that é and è have stopped corresponding precisely to unstressed/stressed, but not ó and ò - and yet, to me, as a northerner, it just seems like the distribution of both e and o is completely arbitrary.
My theory for the 'intrusive' R is that it's mostly an indirect product of derhoticization. Because even with final R's gone, they have the potential to reappear when the following phoneme is a vowel. Normally this would require an unconscious memorization of which words gain this phantom R and which do not, so i think the british unconscious just favored giving EVERY word with a final vowel phoneme the phantom R.
I agree entirely with that but confusion arises when people say ‘intrusive r’ to refer to two different phenomena: firstly, the British (mainly English really) habit of saying ‘Laura Norder’ for ‘law and order’; secondly, the random insertion of r’s before consonants and at the end of words by some Americans (eg, ‘warsh’ for ‘wash’ and ‘feller/potater’ for ‘fellow/potato’).
16:23. it's common in South Wales to pronounce TOOTH with the 'foot' vowel. I remember being laughed at for this when I went to an English university in the early 80's.
LL in Icelandic, old Norse and some Norwegian dialects (although in the Norwegian often still written as lt or tl) is similar to Welsh LL - the adjacent stop and liquid merge into a fricative. In Icelandic I believe there is some over correction where gemminated l is mistaken for the fricative. Note although the merger of LD to LL is written in ON, this development does not appear in most of Scandinavia except for some Norwegian dialects (possibly because the d had already become a fricative rather than a stop in the West)
That's a great idea for collaboration
Current pronunciations don't necessarily reflect recent changes in Latin descendants. If we look at even modern speakers of English want new speech population has their own pronunciation. We have to distinguish between classical showing and local vernaculars in different regions. As another example East Norse languages are supposed to show certain vowel changes from Old Norse, but the East Germanic languages from the same area, but split of much earlier than Proto-Norse, show the same differences, which should obey that these changes in East Norse actually pre-exist classical Old Norse (eastern inscriptions in proto-Norse sometimes back this up)