Love this response! I really appreciate the mature and balanced critique of it and hearing your thoughts, particularly the extra nuance around Squats. Thank you for taking the time to do this
I think it is also important to remember that he is a bodybuilder. They find the exercises that are most effective and time-efficient for gaining muscle. If you aren't "build" for squatting and want to gain muscle the leg press might be more effective and time-efficient than learning how to squat properly.
I think pretty much everyone is built for squatting given that it's a natural human posture haha. But yeah, bodybuilders have a very different approach to training that is far from the most functional or healthy method, which is also why many of them have serious mobility issues after a while, but isolation training is the way to go for hypertrophy of minor muscle groups like the chest that aren't really active in anything outside of work focused on that specific muscle group (like bench press or fly's).
@@AveSicarius Just wanna point out that the bench press is a compound movement and you should do it regardless of what you do, it's a great exercise, I train for strength and to be functional and the bench press helped me a lot in my big lifts
@@khalil8043 It's not a compound movement, it does involve some shoulder activation, but you are primarily targeting the chest, which is what people use it for. For actually building functional pressing strength the BP isn't that great for this reason, because you really don't utilize the chest muscle group so heavily in pushing movements due to it being pretty weak compared to other major muscle groups, it is involved, but BP puts heavy strain on the chest specifically, with far less on the shoulders and pretty much none on the other upper body muscle groups. An example of a compound pushing exercise is the dip, which recruits more muscle groups (it heavily involves the shoulder's, triceps, biceps for stabilization, the lats are slightly involved to stabilize the scapula, and the core is obviously pretty tightly linked to overall stability in the movement) and is also much more natural in regards to the ROM of the movement itself. You rarely see bench press being seriously used in sports that require pressing strength outside of powerlifting, where they have to compete with bench press, but dips, especially weighted dips, are an extremely common method for training functional pressing strength, and most recently Lu XiaoJun talked about this (many Olympic lifters do these), and Gymnasts pretty much exclusively train weighted dips, ring dips, and so on to prepare for planche work. There's a few studies out there highlighting that it really doesn't increase pushing power significantly, and the best kind of BP to do so is one that nobody actually does, the explosive BP throw, which is really only possible on a smith machine, and you essentially push the barbell as hard as possible and launch it upwards. You can see this by how the BP doesn't really translate to other movements, you won't be able to perform static pressing movements and you won't get really strong at active pushing movements in gymnastics either (like handstand push-ups, planche push-ups, and so on), it also doesn't translate to the pressing strength necessary for Olympic lifting, meanwhile weighted dips benefit all of these, and noticably so if you work them into your training protocol properly. Bench Press also inevitably decreases shoulder mobility pretty significantly, and even if you counter this with mobility training and proper prehabilitation/rehabilitation you are looking at long-term issues with your shoulders if you lift heavy. The movement is not really natural, and puts significant strain on your shoulder in an ROM it isn't designed to have such strain move through. The scapula is also in a strange position due to the bench, and you cannot use it to support your structure in the same way we do in harder pushing movements found in gymnastics and calisthenics, and the general body posture is very, very different to a standing push, and even to pushups or other horizontal pushing movements. Bench Press isn't necessary, you can do weighted dips and get better benefits concerning pushing strength without sacrificing shoulder mobility (dips actually improve shoulder mobility which is another benefit over the BP). If you want to do BP and incorporate it your workout, that's perfectly fine, but unless you are specifically training for heavier BP in a powerlifting or strongman context, you don't need it. If you specifically want to build your chest it is most definitely useful, and this is what BP was originally used for as bodybuilding became more fashionable. Give me heavy weighted dips any day, they feel soooo much nicer than BP once you get the technique down.
@@khalil8043 Just going to also say that I'm not criticizing anyone who does BP, people can train however they like and it's not exactly going to kill you. But there are quite a few misconceptions about how useful it is, and while it can have some benefit if you train it properly, it can actually harm your progress if you are doing heavy BP without doing something to counteract potential harm to your shoulder mobility and health. Most people would absolutely benefit from doing weighted dips over BP, they are easier to do properly, they have greater carryover to other exercises and to functional strength, and they will improve your shoulder heath and mobility significantly due to how the shoulder stabilizes the entire body through the ROM of a proper dip. Ring dips are also incredible for your upper body pressing and shoulder health, but generally speaking weighted is going to be better if you want to build serious pressing power that will translate to a variety of movements. I honestly think weighted calisthenics alongside heavy squats and deadlift is pretty much all you need to get seriously strong, if you throw in some mobility and flexibility training you can end up being strong enough to lift heavy while also moving your body through pretty much any ROM you can think of with a little training.
@@AveSicarius I totally agree with you, Dips can offer you more benefits than the BP, I do have to disagree with you regarding the BP not being a compound movement, it requires multiple muscle group and therefore it's a compound movement, I personally do both dips and BP for maximum strength. I do mobility exercises and stretch at least 3 to 4 times per week I also include many other forms of training in my program which helps with my mobility and flexibility, I do martial arts and acrobatics so stretching and mobility and flexibility training is a must, I have never encountered any injuries or had any while Bench pressing, I did 100kg in BP and managed to pull it off easily, for me technique and body awareness is key to avoid any injuries
I've followed Eugene for a while now. I was worried when I saw your review of this video pop up because I enjoy you both. So I'm glad you took a mature approach of actually listening to what he's saying and understanding how his motivations are different than that of oly lifts. He has very good info on his channel and would suggest his content to anyone. Again, understanding he's a body builder so his motivations are different. Love the vid, you basically narrated my internal reaction when I first watched his vid when it popped up, lol.
I actually watch Eugene's videos and they are educational, his pull-up help videos have helped me with my back. But Zack is right, barbell back squats do make you more thicc. I've stopped using machines for my lower body and have been using barbell work and my core, lower back, and legs have never felt stronger. I used to think I couldn't do ass to grass squats until I started working on my flexibility.
Nah as a veteran lifter, nothing has gotten me more thicc legs than heavy 12+ legpress where you are really struggling but grinding the reps out. Same for hamstring curls machines. Do heavy BB stuff when your training age is younger you can recover more and if you are a beginner, learning to manage a barbell is a great ability to learn and builds a lot of neural pathways. But once exerperienced there are so many unilateral machines there that plate loaded that just overload muscles better if you are trying to get jacked.
Why stop using machine though? Use both. Funny in my experience, I’ve strictly back squatted and used weights for legs for years and ever since I incorporated machine isolation work is where my back squat numbers have went up after a plateau
It's hard to disagree with him with his assessment of the bench. I can't barbell bench effectively due to some nerve issue on my left arm. I can do dumbbell presses but with standard dumbbells adding weight isn't an option. How am I supposed to overload? One of my favorite chest exercise is a chest dip, but adding weight to chest dips is extremely cumbersome if you want to keep the right leverage and body position. I just can't agree with him when it comes to the squat, as much as I enjoy goblet squats and the occasional leg press, there's something you get out of a barbell back/front squat that you can't get with any other implement.
You get just as much muscle growth using 30% of your 1rm as you do using 70% or more as long as you hit the same intensity levels and keep volume high enough. You can absolutely achieve maximum growth in the chest using pushups and its variations without ever touching a barbell. The human body really doesn’t need super high weight to achieve its maximum size. That being said, barbells offer a lot of advantage when it comes to training strength.
I recall Jay Cutler also said he barely did any barbell lifts, if any, and almost strictly did machines, levers and dumbbell exercises. And he became Mr Olympia. But it's just a big difference in goals. Barbells are not *needed* for overall physical fitness and health but it is hecking efficient.
@@Tee468 it's not. Your muscles only care about stimulus. It doesn't matter if it comes from bodyweight, weights, bands, sleds, strongman. You'll keep on growing until you reach your natural limit or you're not eating enough or the stimulus is no longer high enough. Both Jay Cutler and Phil health were very strong compared to the average man. They also trained extremely intensely - do not be under any illusion. They were strong not just for singles but strength over time. You won't be able to train like Phil and jay not because it's too easy, on the contrary, for the majority of naturals the intensity will bury you.
Completely agree on the ATG squat. That doesn't happen unless you work on it and just as importantly, work to maintain it. I'm pushing 46 and can still get deep without issue, but that didn't come free.
His video makes a lot of sense, but I'm glad I didn't find it before my 6'7" body learnt how to squat, because I might well have given up on trying if I had. Took me about a year of being incapable of going below parallel before it clicked, but I got there in the end.
Yeah I'm 6'6 and it took forever for me as well, specifically due to very long femurs. Once it clicks though, your lower body starts exploding and you feel SO MUCH stronger than before. It's my favorite exercise now.
@@christopheramsden1834 I notice a good deal of butt wink once I hit Parallel with long femurs. How do stop butt wink and squat deep when you have long femurs?
@@summerofsais I started with light weight. Had to use a curl bar and weights to work up to 45 pounds all the way to the bottom of squat with a pause. Now I can pause squat 225 ATG. Same with front rack. I do a lot of front squats and heavy front rack holds. Along with power cleans. Biggest thing is small steps, be careful with weight. Stay light and work on form and technique. If you feel good on a day, than you can push it some. But being 41 and having to work, I try and be very safe and still work hard and have fun.
I've actually followed you and Eugene for a while and was wondering what your thoughts on his methodology would be. Obviously this is a select video of many but it was nice hearing your take. I do agree with you in the fact that you can train to use barbell work especially on the lower body and I also avoid exercises like the barbell bench press. Great stuff as always!
Thanks Zack. I had already watched Eugene’s vlog (enjoyed it) and also enjoyed your response to it. Very measured and not trying to be adversarial for the hell of it. All the best.
For deadlifts and squats, barbells are a must have. For pressing movements, dumbbells are much safer on the shoulder joints. Both have their place in a workout.
Love your approach to critiquing and you seem like a genuine dude, just like Eugene. We need more of such content, critiquing opinions which may not necessarily be wrong, but just share a different perspective to better help others learn about alternative ways they can improve their training experiences. Subscribed 🍻
I respectfully disagree with takes on barbell, and I'm gonna express my self in some points. 1) The technique, Nobody in the video use the correct arch to benchpress properly, neither Ugene. The Big Arch (not the meme arch) is NOT used to take Rom out of the movement, but to eliminate the shoulders off the equation and to put the chest in the most optiomal position to push with all of the fibers. So actually if you have problem with your joints, mainly, it's gonna be a poor technique and is up to the coach to teach the proper technique (because there's no BB style benchpress or Powerlifting benchpress, there's just a right way and a wrong way, It's all about phisiyology) 2) If done correctly then the Benchpress is a great movement beacuse It puts the chest in the best position to put bigger loas in the best phisiyological position to push-it so as you and Eugene said, it's about load, so if an exercise puts the most stress on the muscle is a better Exercise. 3) Nowadays as a society we stay all day sit behind a desk, do we wanna really tell to people that they should pass from a sitted job to a sitted machine on the Gym? The benchpress ,like many barbell exercise, requires stabilzation and it's also a complete exercise that requires the use of leg drive, the ability to load the weight on the lats on the negative, it's a total body exercise, witch gonna have a bigger neural Impact and a bigger hormonal response. 4) And last point, in my opinion it's easier to put as a goal a weight increase on barbell exercise rather than has the mirror as the only way to judge our results in a newbie. If done properly you're gonna be sure that you put muscle if you increase your benchpress by 20 pounds in a moth, rather than just doing machines and maybe be depressed because you see your self as bloated or the light isn't the right-one so you see your self as not improved. The mirror usually isn't as truthfull as the weights of compound exercise about the musclemass gained, expecially in beginners/intermediate.
About your 4th point . I agree that it's easier to track progression on movements like Bench Press, Squat, Deadlift, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't progress on machines or even dumbells. True, you might be able to increase weight more often in a barbell bench rather than a dumbell, but the progressive overload is still gonna take place (adding reps until the heavier dumbell is achieved). But overall I agree. I'm not sure about the 'safety' of the bench which personally doesn't bother my shoulders currently but have heard many people that are bothered by it. I still think that if a person can do it properly and it hits their target muscle or gets them stronger that they shouldn't avoid it for the sake of avoiding it.
Saw this one a lil late. I injured my discs and hips by training with a very negligent weightlifting coach in college man. I since then become a trainer and its been 6 years. Something ive hated, everyone telling me because I have extremely long tibias and short torso. Im not built to weightlift… so Ive given up weightlifting ever since… and it hurt a lot. Been trying to deep squat all this years and I get butt wink that popped my back. I was mostly squatting hip dominant cause my ankles no matter how much mobility work and squat university drills I did, never got the right amount of dorsiflexion. Found your channel months ago… and dude. Seeing you fucking hit your weightlifting goals having that long limb short torso build. Really has given me hope to weightlift again one day. Dont know if you’ll read this bro. But thanks for promoting for us long legged people to still pursue to do what we love.
why are we so concerned with movement variability? It's not like we're athletes. Most people just sit, stand, walk, run, pick up, drop stuff. I guess if you want to progress as much as possible in a sport, you would want to add in assistance exercises.
I mean it's also just good for going into old age and being able to keep moving, it's smart to be fit in all aspects not just strength....otherwise...why do it right? I want to be lifting and playing with my future grandkids until I die...probably doing a rack-pull.
He is right, it might just take many years for a lot of you to realize it. speak to almost anyone over 50 who has spent way too much time barbell squatting or benching or deadlifting, and you will find usually someone with a lot of injuries . Sure, maybe a few can get away with it, but most won’t. Pointing out a few outliers doesn’t show it’s safe. Plenty of other ways to train without the big barbell lifts. Especially if longevity matters. Most of the people commenting on this thread will be in their 20s and 30s so they will simply not get it until it’s too late. A lot of things can work ok when you are 25.
Dude I know many ppl who are weightlifter and they are over 40 and they are still strong as hell that's just brotalk that bodybuilders say at the gym when they see a smaller guy lifting heavier weights than them.
I think if your goal is simply to accrue hypertrophy, his points remain valid. However, part of going to the gym for me is watching my progression occur, and this naturally is monitored through the barbell lifts. It's exciting to make progress and see my numbers increase on something like the Front squat, and Push press, and it gives me both a ego and confidence boost knowing that these are lifts that someone can see and just objectively know that the person performing these lifts with those #'s is strong. That's not to say you can't be excited about making progress and seeing # increases if you only performed DB lifts or Machine variations, (they're likely safer in the long term if we're talking about joints but that's besides the point) but to me it just simply wouldn't feel as impressive.
I feel the same way, and i think the drive to increase weight on something like the DB bench just wouldn't be there compared to a regular bench. Thus resulting in less gains overall. Hard to disagree with his points on joint stress, but if i can defend my own programming - I don't feel as they are exclusive to the bench press alone. Plenty of people fuck up their rotator cuff doing stuff like dips.
"I think if your goal is simply to accrue hypertrophy, his points remain valid." Thats his channel that's what he preaches and that's what he trains people for. Zack is a weightlifter so he's coming from this from that perspective. Eugene used to be a powerlifter and a threaded bodybuilder so he understands the value of everything but he is now more on the bodybuilding sphere.
Talking about the ‘big 3’ - squat, deadlift, bench (powerlifting) - squatting, standing up and down and deadlifting, picking something up, are much more natural human movements than needing to bench something. I’d say if I could do only one it would be barbell squat.
I still barbell bench but not like I once did. Much lighter and closer grip to focus on triceps. Like you I increase my weight on dumbbells and weighted dips.
@@a.julian3770 yeah it's just that there are plenty of safer/more comfortable pushing movements that don't fuck up peoples shoulders like the bench does for a lot of people
I used to sit and play video games all day for years. When I first started squatting, I truly thought it wasn't for me. My upper back was rounding, my wrists were hurting, my knees were caving in, I was using more lower back than legs, I couldn't keep my core pressurized to save my life etc. It took me like two years of quitting and picking it back up to finally get to the point where I can properly do a squat. Now it's my favorite exercise.
I agree with both of u. I have a love hate relationship with barbells depending on what im doing. I have really bad shoulder issue and if i barbell bench press i can't move my arms for days cuz my shoulders hurt so bad but i can dumbbell bench press all day long. For a deadlift...it just feels too damn good when u lock it out holding a lot of weight lol
I been benching for 15 years now and switching to dumbbells solved all my problems. No more joint pain/discomfort whatsoever. Im building more muscle cos dumbbells causes more contraction. Im at a point where i can bench 120lb dumbbells for 12-14 reps comfortably on flat or incline bench. I could probably be doing 130lb dumbbells but my gym doesnt have that and 140lb would prolly give me an injury. But barbell is unbeatable with lower body training.
@@killthemall55 same thing with me. It was getting to the point were i HATED chest day with a passion cuz it was just so painful. Then one day i was warming up my shoulders and i thought to myself why the hell am i doing this to myself? At this rate i won't be able to lift soon and i just said fk it and didn't so my bench and just went heavier on dumbbells to see what would happen. One i got a WAAAAAY better pump. I got doms and the next day my shoulder actually felt better than it had in years and i havent done a barbell bench since
So there's one very important thing to note here that seems to be going ignored - Eugene is speaking from the point of view of a bodybuilder. I disagree completely with a lot of his points, but that's also because I'm powerlifting; it's hard to do that without a barbell. For someone whose entire goal is hypertrophy, it's completely okay to focus more on isolation. In many cases, the more diverse exercise pool afforded by barbells and machine lifts would actually be beneficial for a bodybuilder. However, by framing the discussion as "everyone either should or should not use a barbell" you draw a line in the sand that can stop a lot of beginners from broadening their abilities and experiences. Also, I fully agree with Telly's points on mobility and diversity of lifts. Just because you're at a disadvantage *right now* in a certain lift, that doesn't mean you should abandon it entirely; you're *FAR* better off incorporating a wider variety of lifts, while still working towards the ability to, for instance, back squat to depth.
in the full video, Eugene says that his message isn't for barbell athletes as it's required for their sport but if it isn't required, no need to dogmatically force yourself to do it if you don't want to.
@@Issvor a lot of the comments prove that people don't actually watch the video and are just replying to the title. If not, there's not really anything to disagree with
I stopped using barbells and have made the most progress I ever have in the last few years. Injuries make barbells tough for me and I never get a good connection. Dumbbells have been awesome for me and machines. Ive also utilized many of Eugene's tips and tricks over the years and he's extremely knowledgeable. Interesting you've never heard of Eugene especially with the size of his channel.
I find machines boring, my goal is not only to have great body I want to develop strength, absolute strength.. I can't do that with dumbbells and as I said I don't enjoy machines
I like Eugenes' content because he always gives broad strokes of information, diving into both sides of the coin. Good info, too, for the experienced and novices.
you can microload barbells; don't usually get that luxury with db or machines/cables. plate loaded hammer strength machines still take stabilization and proprioception out of it so they are only ideal as supplementary work
9:22 I agree that dumbbell bench press is a great chest builder, especially as an alternative to barbell bench press, but I believe that very few will achieve the same amount of loading on dumbbells that they would with a barbell. Thats why I prefer to do a mix of the two, especially with incline dumbbell press which helps to round out a full chest. Proper form for any lift goes a long way, I think.
Bench press barbell, Incline and declime dumbel and cables enough for a big chest you can sometimes do dips peck deck or hammers strenght chest press but Barbell bench and incline dumbel are must
I clicked on the mindset video IN SPITE of the thumbnail as I was weary of the clickbaitiness. And I’m glad I did. Great video. Human psychology is wild.
As someone that competes in powerlifting and have a very heavy bias to squatting, benching, and deadlifting with a barbell I’ve always half jokingly said that the day I stop competing is the day I never use a barbell again. But more in the sense of like using an SSB to squat with instead of a barbell.
I use a buffalo bar for most of my squatting work. Then transition to the power bar about 4 weeks out from a meet. It's been working pretty well for me. Shoulders aren't feeling so beat up.
For bodybuilding I agree, you don’t need barbells. For raw strength obviously they’re the trademark. And strength has its place in bodybuilding development but you can achieve a bodybuilding physique with minimal barbell work and you can also get strong without barbells but obviously doing a bit of both no matter what your goals will probably be beneficial and contribute to more dynamic growth in whatever goals you have.
raw (of a person): new to an activity or job and therefore lacking experience or skill strength: the quality or state of being physically strong raw strength is just a soundbite. theres no such thing as "raw strength" and if there was, there wouldnt be a difference in bodybuilding to something else
Barbell exercises is just more fun to do and make for more grueling fights with the weights. It's hard to feel like a savage raiding the enemy camp doing low incline unilateral cable fly-presses with some abstract "40 kilo" load.
All of my upper body barbell exercises also include a DB/Cable/Machine variation. I do Upper/Lower 4 times a week. If I barbell bench press on the first upper day, I'll do dumb bell bench press on the second Upper day. It is like getting the best of both worlds.
eugene’s argument is like saying skateboarding is ineffective and overrated. we do it cus it’s badass not for “OPTIMlAL RESULTS”.. lol like yeah the bench is strenuous on the joints and so is weightlifting, we do it anyway cus we wanna be steezey strongguys (1 word)
I like Eugene. I might benefit from your approach on learning to squat regardless of my long legs, but it never really mattered to me, I just want strong tree tunk legs. I mostly stopped barbell exercises apart from OH-press and deadlift due to injuries.
I started watching your vids before Eugene, so already knew about increasing flexibility, and was aware of hip anatomy and positioning affecting squat depth. Then I saw Eugene's video, and wondered what you would have to say about it. The youtube algorithm must have known, because a few days later I get recommended this video from a year ago lol. Great vid. Love the nuanced back and forth.
I’m so happy I found this video ! I didn’t have a barbell to train with for a very long time and it stopped me from understanding it and learning how to use it. I trained with dumbbells and kettlebells mostly. I found myself in a great gym this past year where the coaches helped me progress with the barbell and now I’ve finally built enough confidence to push heavy and controlled. My squat technique has changed enormously and I finally feel solid at the bottom. From that I’ve progressed my clean and jerk and front squat and many more lifts. Thanks for this great video! Your tips and approaches have helped me enormously!
Definitely agree enough with the squad part. This is why i love weightlifting, its works your mobility which is something your average lifter never tries to work on
I'm going to disagree on the bench press. I think the main problem people run into is also their ego. You absolutely reach a point of diminishing returns lifting heavy, but with movements like the bench press, the key is letting your joints - ligaments and tendons - adapt and not let your muscular strength outpace what you can accommodate structurally. This slows bench progress more than other barbell movements of course. I also don't know how much carryover there is between cables, machines, dumbbells, and calisthenics to raw strength and power in the upper body compared to a bench press. Seems hard to measure/determine. Can great BB benchers do better at the former exercises than their practitioners do at the bench? That's the question I'd like an answer to. If I train exclusively DB bench, will my BB bench go up faster than my DB bench if I trained exclusively BB bench (sub in any other BB bench replacement for DB bench in this scenario)?
Sitting in a deep squat is a basic human ability that is lost. It's not something that needs to be gained unless something went wrong during teen and adult years. With that being said training each part of the leg individually is improving my health greatly. In 6 weeks I'll be done with this program and I'll see if it's barbell time again.
I think everyone can sit in a deep squat, it's just that most people have their back rounded at the bottom which makes it less ideal while handling heavy loads.
Liked your reaction. Now I'm gonna go and watch those mobility videos to see if they can help me with gaining mobility for the overhead squat, first time trying them, failing miserably.
Agree shoulders easily get over engaged when trying to go heavy on bench, I've torn muscle in my delt doing this and have switched to mainly dumbbells and cables instead. Also at just under 6'3 deadlifting off the floor took a long time to master and numerous back strains, I've found doing rack pulls from approx mid shin height and certain kettle bell exercises almost as effective and far less risk of injury.
I really enjoy these videos especially that you take the time to see their point of view and find common ground. Through respectful discussion we all get better.
For me personally. I used to use a lot of machines and cables, and my physique saw decent progress. However since transitioning to Olympic lifting and my workouts becoming 80% barbell based, my physique has changed in so many ways for the better, I’m bigger, fuller, leaner and better developed
Comes down to sport specificity, if your sport requires barbell movements then ofcourse, do them. For example, BB doesn’t require barbells, a typical IFBB Pro workout featured on Muscle and Strength has a lot of athletes doing only machines or dumbbell movements.
The comment on the bench press regarding the rotational forces (torque) on the joints: is this not the desired effect? In order to move around space (or move objects around space), our bodies rely heavily on generating torque, via various opposing forces - most simply put, the antagonistic forces. Instability as a desired training effect is beneficial in many scenarios, but to me seems less practically functional. In a real world application of force production, where you would want to move an object (or just yourself), in any given plane, you would never willingly choose to not engage bilaterally, you would use both feet if possible, and both hands; maximising points of contact. For example, in a static start vertical leap, lots of torque is generated throughout the body to build elastic energy, and provide stability. For a running start single leg bound (such as triple jump) forces already in motion from running, are directed upwards for take off, so less energy is required to overcome the inertia of the body (as it's no longer inert) so less peak toque forces are required in the 'system'. Are we only ever supposed to be training in a way that leverages momentum or challenges internal active stability versus contact stability? Instability training just doesn't make sense as the primary form of working the body, as a complex system of forces acting in so many different vectors.
I don't like when youtubers make such bold claims lol. YOU SHOULDN'T USE BARBELLS!!! Barbells can load more weight and teach your body to work together as one unit. My personal experience though is to do unilateral training first. Make sure you don't have any significant muscle imbalances. 1 arm shoulder press, 1 arm row, lunges, etc... This will let you strengthen both sides equally until they are balanced. Then barbell work is great to go after. Training with dumbbells and barbells is key. You're missing out if you only use one of those.
Funny thing is I clicked on your Toxic mindset video during the MJ Thumbnail and I would have never clicked on the current thumbnail! This makes me realize changing up your thumbnail is great for capturing multiple different kinds of fanbases.
I follw both of you on Instagram for the same reason- coherent, evidence based content, and your ability to stay critical of yourselves. Keep it up DEATH to 90 degree squats!
Flat benches are a dead exercise, like deadlifts, meaning the risk of long term injury isn’t worth the risk. Shoulder and lower back injuries are unforgiving.
I personally have never grown more in size and strength than when im focusing on rep strength in basic barbell lifts like squats rdls bench ohp rows etc, but I definitely see where people are coming from with the barbell alternatives/preferance of non barbells.
Myself 20 yr lifting, and the head coach of my gym (40 yrs lifting) simultaneously came to this conclusion for Eugene’s exact reasons, without even seeing the video. About 2 months ago 😂👌🏽
I agree with Eugene on the back squat mobility thing because for some people, even an ass to grass will still load up the lower back more than is necessary if quads are the primary focus. Doesn't mean it's not a nice/necessary skill, but being dogmatic in that it's the most optimal exercise when loaded with a barbell is foolish as a front/zercher/belt squat could yield better benefits while utilizing the same level of mobility. It's something I think Zack overlooked. Conflated barbell back squats to just ass to grass squat movement pattern.
I watched the toxic champion mindset on my break at work and it really stuck with me. I even talked about it with my coworkers after. I liked the original thumbnail but I'm glad it has more exposure now.
I use the "return youtube dislike" extension to still be able to see the dislikes but it's still not the same because people are less likely to even bother disliking in the first place knowing that it's not going to be public
The only advantage I see for dumbbells press as opposed to bench, is that you work out stabilizing muscles more. Don't know how you get injured if you practice good form and do stretches for your rotator cuffs.
If you're switching out barbells for stone lifting or farmers walk/strongman stuff, that's fine enough; or maybe if you're an acrobat or a gymnast, then you don't necessarily need barbells. But What I do know, is that when I finally switched to Olympic barbells and a squat rack for bench/squat/rows/overhead press; my lifts went up exponentially, and very quickly. Easily accessible/easy to use/easy to learn/effective/A purchase you only need to make once, if you buy good equipment.
Great reaction. I love the video of eugene but i also agree with the point you mentioned. I think everybody can develop a good squat position with proper training.
Love this response! I really appreciate the mature and balanced critique of it and hearing your thoughts, particularly the extra nuance around Squats. Thank you for taking the time to do this
I don't think you should ever speak again.
You're obviously just looking for drama
@@danielhenderson762 what?
@@danielhenderson762 wow
@@thomas.thomas he’s joking
@@danielhenderson762 Lmaoo
I think it is also important to remember that he is a bodybuilder. They find the exercises that are most effective and time-efficient for gaining muscle. If you aren't "build" for squatting and want to gain muscle the leg press might be more effective and time-efficient than learning how to squat properly.
I think pretty much everyone is built for squatting given that it's a natural human posture haha. But yeah, bodybuilders have a very different approach to training that is far from the most functional or healthy method, which is also why many of them have serious mobility issues after a while, but isolation training is the way to go for hypertrophy of minor muscle groups like the chest that aren't really active in anything outside of work focused on that specific muscle group (like bench press or fly's).
@@AveSicarius Just wanna point out that the bench press is a compound movement and you should do it regardless of what you do, it's a great exercise, I train for strength and to be functional and the bench press helped me a lot in my big lifts
@@khalil8043
It's not a compound movement, it does involve some shoulder activation, but you are primarily targeting the chest, which is what people use it for. For actually building functional pressing strength the BP isn't that great for this reason, because you really don't utilize the chest muscle group so heavily in pushing movements due to it being pretty weak compared to other major muscle groups, it is involved, but BP puts heavy strain on the chest specifically, with far less on the shoulders and pretty much none on the other upper body muscle groups. An example of a compound pushing exercise is the dip, which recruits more muscle groups (it heavily involves the shoulder's, triceps, biceps for stabilization, the lats are slightly involved to stabilize the scapula, and the core is obviously pretty tightly linked to overall stability in the movement) and is also much more natural in regards to the ROM of the movement itself. You rarely see bench press being seriously used in sports that require pressing strength outside of powerlifting, where they have to compete with bench press, but dips, especially weighted dips, are an extremely common method for training functional pressing strength, and most recently Lu XiaoJun talked about this (many Olympic lifters do these), and Gymnasts pretty much exclusively train weighted dips, ring dips, and so on to prepare for planche work. There's a few studies out there highlighting that it really doesn't increase pushing power significantly, and the best kind of BP to do so is one that nobody actually does, the explosive BP throw, which is really only possible on a smith machine, and you essentially push the barbell as hard as possible and launch it upwards. You can see this by how the BP doesn't really translate to other movements, you won't be able to perform static pressing movements and you won't get really strong at active pushing movements in gymnastics either (like handstand push-ups, planche push-ups, and so on), it also doesn't translate to the pressing strength necessary for Olympic lifting, meanwhile weighted dips benefit all of these, and noticably so if you work them into your training protocol properly.
Bench Press also inevitably decreases shoulder mobility pretty significantly, and even if you counter this with mobility training and proper prehabilitation/rehabilitation you are looking at long-term issues with your shoulders if you lift heavy. The movement is not really natural, and puts significant strain on your shoulder in an ROM it isn't designed to have such strain move through. The scapula is also in a strange position due to the bench, and you cannot use it to support your structure in the same way we do in harder pushing movements found in gymnastics and calisthenics, and the general body posture is very, very different to a standing push, and even to pushups or other horizontal pushing movements.
Bench Press isn't necessary, you can do weighted dips and get better benefits concerning pushing strength without sacrificing shoulder mobility (dips actually improve shoulder mobility which is another benefit over the BP). If you want to do BP and incorporate it your workout, that's perfectly fine, but unless you are specifically training for heavier BP in a powerlifting or strongman context, you don't need it. If you specifically want to build your chest it is most definitely useful, and this is what BP was originally used for as bodybuilding became more fashionable. Give me heavy weighted dips any day, they feel soooo much nicer than BP once you get the technique down.
@@khalil8043
Just going to also say that I'm not criticizing anyone who does BP, people can train however they like and it's not exactly going to kill you. But there are quite a few misconceptions about how useful it is, and while it can have some benefit if you train it properly, it can actually harm your progress if you are doing heavy BP without doing something to counteract potential harm to your shoulder mobility and health. Most people would absolutely benefit from doing weighted dips over BP, they are easier to do properly, they have greater carryover to other exercises and to functional strength, and they will improve your shoulder heath and mobility significantly due to how the shoulder stabilizes the entire body through the ROM of a proper dip. Ring dips are also incredible for your upper body pressing and shoulder health, but generally speaking weighted is going to be better if you want to build serious pressing power that will translate to a variety of movements.
I honestly think weighted calisthenics alongside heavy squats and deadlift is pretty much all you need to get seriously strong, if you throw in some mobility and flexibility training you can end up being strong enough to lift heavy while also moving your body through pretty much any ROM you can think of with a little training.
@@AveSicarius I totally agree with you, Dips can offer you more benefits than the BP, I do have to disagree with you regarding the BP not being a compound movement, it requires multiple muscle group and therefore it's a compound movement, I personally do both dips and BP for maximum strength. I do mobility exercises and stretch at least 3 to 4 times per week I also include many other forms of training in my program which helps with my mobility and flexibility, I do martial arts and acrobatics so stretching and mobility and flexibility training is a must, I have never encountered any injuries or had any while Bench pressing, I did 100kg in BP and managed to pull it off easily, for me technique and body awareness is key to avoid any injuries
i use barbells for the difficult
i see you're a man of culture
AAAAAAAAAAAAA
FULL
AAAAAAAAAAAAA
YOU HAVE TO LIVE IT
*zercher shrugs till death*
FULL
A lot of his points were valid, but a lack of movement variability and a few of the other cons aren’t exclusive to barbells tbh.
Hello bald Omni-man
It’s a great bald one.
It’s the great bald one.
I dont think that was ever implied
@@98danielray i think his point is that the same points could be used to the variations he's using, thus are not that good
I've followed Eugene for a while now. I was worried when I saw your review of this video pop up because I enjoy you both. So I'm glad you took a mature approach of actually listening to what he's saying and understanding how his motivations are different than that of oly lifts. He has very good info on his channel and would suggest his content to anyone. Again, understanding he's a body builder so his motivations are different. Love the vid, you basically narrated my internal reaction when I first watched his vid when it popped up, lol.
I use barbells because big weight go klunk.
GIGACHAD barbell good cuz klunk
This is my language
Just 🐎 🐓'ing gargantuan tonnage for voluminous gains.
I actually watch Eugene's videos and they are educational, his pull-up help videos have helped me with my back. But Zack is right, barbell back squats do make you more thicc. I've stopped using machines for my lower body and have been using barbell work and my core, lower back, and legs have never felt stronger. I used to think I couldn't do ass to grass squats until I started working on my flexibility.
You mean mobility
I think he meant mobility
You need both to get ass to grass so no big deal bois
Nah as a veteran lifter, nothing has gotten me more thicc legs than heavy 12+ legpress where you are really struggling but grinding the reps out. Same for hamstring curls machines. Do heavy BB stuff when your training age is younger you can recover more and if you are a beginner, learning to manage a barbell is a great ability to learn and builds a lot of neural pathways. But once exerperienced there are so many unilateral machines there that plate loaded that just overload muscles better if you are trying to get jacked.
Why stop using machine though? Use both. Funny in my experience, I’ve strictly back squatted and used weights for legs for years and ever since I incorporated machine isolation work is where my back squat numbers have went up after a plateau
It's hard to disagree with him with his assessment of the bench. I can't barbell bench effectively due to some nerve issue on my left arm. I can do dumbbell presses but with standard dumbbells adding weight isn't an option. How am I supposed to overload? One of my favorite chest exercise is a chest dip, but adding weight to chest dips is extremely cumbersome if you want to keep the right leverage and body position. I just can't agree with him when it comes to the squat, as much as I enjoy goblet squats and the occasional leg press, there's something you get out of a barbell back/front squat that you can't get with any other implement.
You ever considered weighted pushups?
You could possibly tryout some chest machines (if you go to the gym rather than work out at home)
i hate barbell benching but love db benching but other than that I dont get it
You get just as much muscle growth using 30% of your 1rm as you do using 70% or more as long as you hit the same intensity levels and keep volume high enough. You can absolutely achieve maximum growth in the chest using pushups and its variations without ever touching a barbell. The human body really doesn’t need super high weight to achieve its maximum size. That being said, barbells offer a lot of advantage when it comes to training strength.
Bruh i literally just decided to stop benching bc my left arm and shoulder really doesnt like it (feels like a pinched nerve)
I recall Jay Cutler also said he barely did any barbell lifts, if any, and almost strictly did machines, levers and dumbbell exercises. And he became Mr Olympia. But it's just a big difference in goals. Barbells are not *needed* for overall physical fitness and health but it is hecking efficient.
also it is fun to lift heavy weights
Same with Phil health.
Its a little different for people on PEDs vs naturals
Unless you have top 1 percent of genetics and on copious amounts of gear you won’t get very far training like a Mr O.
@@Tee468 it's not. Your muscles only care about stimulus. It doesn't matter if it comes from bodyweight, weights, bands, sleds, strongman. You'll keep on growing until you reach your natural limit or you're not eating enough or the stimulus is no longer high enough.
Both Jay Cutler and Phil health were very strong compared to the average man. They also trained extremely intensely - do not be under any illusion. They were strong not just for singles but strength over time. You won't be able to train like Phil and jay not because it's too easy, on the contrary, for the majority of naturals the intensity will bury you.
Completely agree on the ATG squat. That doesn't happen unless you work on it and just as importantly, work to maintain it. I'm pushing 46 and can still get deep without issue, but that didn't come free.
His video makes a lot of sense, but I'm glad I didn't find it before my 6'7" body learnt how to squat, because I might well have given up on trying if I had. Took me about a year of being incapable of going below parallel before it clicked, but I got there in the end.
Heard of hafthor??
@@tajbirsingh5205 Yes let’s take the 1% of the 1% of strength athletes and apply it to regular people lol
Yeah I'm 6'6 and it took forever for me as well, specifically due to very long femurs. Once it clicks though, your lower body starts exploding and you feel SO MUCH stronger than before. It's my favorite exercise now.
@@christopheramsden1834 my man. I'm 6'3 and I've been through the same.
@@christopheramsden1834 I notice a good deal of butt wink once I hit Parallel with long femurs.
How do stop butt wink and squat deep when you have long femurs?
I'm 41 and over the last year I developed full squat depth and full grip on front rack. Time and effort, with no excuses = improvement.
Good job man👍
You're a savage, well done
How did u do it?
@@summerofsais I started with light weight. Had to use a curl bar and weights to work up to 45 pounds all the way to the bottom of squat with a pause. Now I can pause squat 225 ATG. Same with front rack. I do a lot of front squats and heavy front rack holds. Along with power cleans. Biggest thing is small steps, be careful with weight. Stay light and work on form and technique. If you feel good on a day, than you can push it some. But being 41 and having to work, I try and be very safe and still work hard and have fun.
Not needed
I've actually followed you and Eugene for a while and was wondering what your thoughts on his methodology would be. Obviously this is a select video of many but it was nice hearing your take. I do agree with you in the fact that you can train to use barbell work especially on the lower body and I also avoid exercises like the barbell bench press. Great stuff as always!
Terrific review of Eugene’s video. Both of you provide honest and insightful content. Keep up the great work.
Thanks Zack. I had already watched Eugene’s vlog (enjoyed it) and also enjoyed your response to it. Very measured and not trying to be adversarial for the hell of it. All the best.
For deadlifts and squats, barbells are a must have.
For pressing movements, dumbbells are much safer on the shoulder joints. Both have their place in a workout.
Not true the hack squat can be achieved with a squat machine as well as the leg press.
Love your approach to critiquing and you seem like a genuine dude, just like Eugene.
We need more of such content, critiquing opinions which may not necessarily be wrong, but just share a different perspective to better help others learn about alternative ways they can improve their training experiences.
Subscribed 🍻
Eugene is one of the very few fitness UA-camrs I really trust. He the OG!
I respectfully disagree with takes on barbell, and I'm gonna express my self in some points.
1) The technique, Nobody in the video use the correct arch to benchpress properly, neither Ugene. The Big Arch (not the meme arch) is NOT used to take Rom out of the movement, but to eliminate the shoulders off the equation and to put the chest in the most optiomal position to push with all of the fibers. So actually if you have problem with your joints, mainly, it's gonna be a poor technique and is up to the coach to teach the proper technique (because there's no BB style benchpress or Powerlifting benchpress, there's just a right way and a wrong way, It's all about phisiyology)
2) If done correctly then the Benchpress is a great movement beacuse It puts the chest in the best position to put bigger loas in the best phisiyological position to push-it so as you and Eugene said, it's about load, so if an exercise puts the most stress on the muscle is a better Exercise.
3) Nowadays as a society we stay all day sit behind a desk, do we wanna really tell to people that they should pass from a sitted job to a sitted machine on the Gym? The benchpress ,like many barbell exercise, requires stabilzation and it's also a complete exercise that requires the use of leg drive, the ability to load the weight on the lats on the negative, it's a total body exercise, witch gonna have a bigger neural Impact and a bigger hormonal response.
4) And last point, in my opinion it's easier to put as a goal a weight increase on barbell exercise rather than has the mirror as the only way to judge our results in a newbie. If done properly you're gonna be sure that you put muscle if you increase your benchpress by 20 pounds in a moth, rather than just doing machines and maybe be depressed because you see your self as bloated or the light isn't the right-one so you see your self as not improved. The mirror usually isn't as truthfull as the weights of compound exercise about the musclemass gained, expecially in beginners/intermediate.
Nothing but truth in your comment
Yes ! Finally someone who knows what he is talking about. Thank you.
Agree😎😎💪💪⚡⚡
lol :'D
About your 4th point . I agree that it's easier to track progression on movements like Bench Press, Squat, Deadlift, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't progress on machines or even dumbells. True, you might be able to increase weight more often in a barbell bench rather than a dumbell, but the progressive overload is still gonna take place (adding reps until the heavier dumbell is achieved). But overall I agree. I'm not sure about the 'safety' of the bench which personally doesn't bother my shoulders currently but have heard many people that are bothered by it. I still think that if a person can do it properly and it hits their target muscle or gets them stronger that they shouldn't avoid it for the sake of avoiding it.
Saw this one a lil late. I injured my discs and hips by training with a very negligent weightlifting coach in college man. I since then become a trainer and its been 6 years.
Something ive hated, everyone telling me because I have extremely long tibias and short torso. Im not built to weightlift… so Ive given up weightlifting ever since… and it hurt a lot. Been trying to deep squat all this years and I get butt wink that popped my back. I was mostly squatting hip dominant cause my ankles no matter how much mobility work and squat university drills I did, never got the right amount of dorsiflexion.
Found your channel months ago… and dude. Seeing you fucking hit your weightlifting goals having that long limb short torso build. Really has given me hope to weightlift again one day.
Dont know if you’ll read this bro. But thanks for promoting for us long legged people to still pursue to do what we love.
Long Legs Rise Up 😎
Appreciate how objective and open you are in these analysis vids👍
why are we so concerned with movement variability? It's not like we're athletes. Most people just sit, stand, walk, run, pick up, drop stuff.
I guess if you want to progress as much as possible in a sport, you would want to add in assistance exercises.
YOU GOTTA SHOCK THE MUSCLE! CONFUSE IT!
Mostly mental aspect of training. Also, some concerns about overuse injuries.
I mean it's also just good for going into old age and being able to keep moving, it's smart to be fit in all aspects not just strength....otherwise...why do it right? I want to be lifting and playing with my future grandkids until I die...probably doing a rack-pull.
Overuse injury
Never saw any of your videos before but as soon as I saw Solstheim in your background, I clicked right away.
He is right, it might just take many years for a lot of you to realize it. speak to almost anyone over 50 who has spent way too much time barbell squatting or benching or deadlifting, and you will find usually someone with a lot of injuries . Sure, maybe a few can get away with it, but most won’t. Pointing out a few outliers doesn’t show it’s safe. Plenty of other ways to train without the big barbell lifts. Especially if longevity matters. Most of the people commenting on this thread will be in their 20s and 30s so they will simply not get it until it’s too late. A lot of things can work ok when you are 25.
Dude I know many ppl who are weightlifter and they are over 40 and they are still strong as hell that's just brotalk that bodybuilders say at the gym when they see a smaller guy lifting heavier weights than them.
Sure plenty of 50 year olds with bad form out there. Either that or ego lifting.
@@darkoale3299 🤦 that's exactly what a bodybuilder would say
Lui Kang is spot on and the barbell community goes butthurt as always.
I think if your goal is simply to accrue hypertrophy, his points remain valid. However, part of going to the gym for me is watching my progression occur, and this naturally is monitored through the barbell lifts. It's exciting to make progress and see my numbers increase on something like the Front squat, and Push press, and it gives me both a ego and confidence boost knowing that these are lifts that someone can see and just objectively know that the person performing these lifts with those #'s is strong. That's not to say you can't be excited about making progress and seeing # increases if you only performed DB lifts or Machine variations, (they're likely safer in the long term if we're talking about joints but that's besides the point) but to me it just simply wouldn't feel as impressive.
I feel the same way, and i think the drive to increase weight on something like the DB bench just wouldn't be there compared to a regular bench. Thus resulting in less gains overall.
Hard to disagree with his points on joint stress, but if i can defend my own programming - I don't feel as they are exclusive to the bench press alone. Plenty of people fuck up their rotator cuff doing stuff like dips.
for hypertrophy you need to be progressing all the time
"I think if your goal is simply to accrue hypertrophy, his points remain valid."
Thats his channel that's what he preaches and that's what he trains people for. Zack is a weightlifter so he's coming from this from that perspective. Eugene used to be a powerlifter and a threaded bodybuilder so he understands the value of everything but he is now more on the bodybuilding sphere.
Exactly this lol
*Sees Elder Scrolls in the background*
My brain: I used to be an Olympic lifter like you, then I took a barbell to the knee.
Talking about the ‘big 3’ - squat, deadlift, bench (powerlifting) - squatting, standing up and down and deadlifting, picking something up, are much more natural human movements than needing to bench something. I’d say if I could do only one it would be barbell squat.
I will never stop squatting or deadlifting, but i shed the bench awhile ago. just low incline DBs and dips for me there
I still barbell bench but not like I once did. Much lighter and closer grip to focus on triceps. Like you I increase my weight on dumbbells and weighted dips.
I agree that squats and deadlifts have more practicality, but bench, a pushing movement, is pretty useful especially with martial arts training.
@@a.julian3770 yeah it's just that there are plenty of safer/more comfortable pushing movements that don't fuck up peoples shoulders like the bench does for a lot of people
I used to sit and play video games all day for years. When I first started squatting, I truly thought it wasn't for me. My upper back was rounding, my wrists were hurting, my knees were caving in, I was using more lower back than legs, I couldn't keep my core pressurized to save my life etc. It took me like two years of quitting and picking it back up to finally get to the point where I can properly do a squat. Now it's my favorite exercise.
God is good
I agree with both of u. I have a love hate relationship with barbells depending on what im doing. I have really bad shoulder issue and if i barbell bench press i can't move my arms for days cuz my shoulders hurt so bad but i can dumbbell bench press all day long. For a deadlift...it just feels too damn good when u lock it out holding a lot of weight lol
I been benching for 15 years now and switching to dumbbells solved all my problems. No more joint pain/discomfort whatsoever. Im building more muscle cos dumbbells causes more contraction. Im at a point where i can bench 120lb dumbbells for 12-14 reps comfortably on flat or incline bench.
I could probably be doing 130lb dumbbells but my gym doesnt have that and 140lb would prolly give me an injury.
But barbell is unbeatable with lower body training.
@@killthemall55 same thing with me. It was getting to the point were i HATED chest day with a passion cuz it was just so painful. Then one day i was warming up my shoulders and i thought to myself why the hell am i doing this to myself? At this rate i won't be able to lift soon and i just said fk it and didn't so my bench and just went heavier on dumbbells to see what would happen. One i got a WAAAAAY better pump. I got doms and the next day my shoulder actually felt better than it had in years and i havent done a barbell bench since
So there's one very important thing to note here that seems to be going ignored - Eugene is speaking from the point of view of a bodybuilder. I disagree completely with a lot of his points, but that's also because I'm powerlifting; it's hard to do that without a barbell.
For someone whose entire goal is hypertrophy, it's completely okay to focus more on isolation. In many cases, the more diverse exercise pool afforded by barbells and machine lifts would actually be beneficial for a bodybuilder.
However, by framing the discussion as "everyone either should or should not use a barbell" you draw a line in the sand that can stop a lot of beginners from broadening their abilities and experiences.
Also, I fully agree with Telly's points on mobility and diversity of lifts. Just because you're at a disadvantage *right now* in a certain lift, that doesn't mean you should abandon it entirely; you're *FAR* better off incorporating a wider variety of lifts, while still working towards the ability to, for instance, back squat to depth.
in the full video, Eugene says that his message isn't for barbell athletes as it's required for their sport but if it isn't required, no need to dogmatically force yourself to do it if you don't want to.
22:35 he literally states "the other obvious exception is if you do barbell sports like power lifting"
@@Issvor a lot of the comments prove that people don't actually watch the video and are just replying to the title. If not, there's not really anything to disagree with
Isolation will be a slow way to get muscle if you're natural. Doesn't mean barbells are necessary
It's almost like you didn't go to "full depth" on this video.
As a religiously purist barbell guy, I agree with basically everything this man said. Well spoken sir 👍
Are you in Skyrim?
I stopped using barbells and have made the most progress I ever have in the last few years. Injuries make barbells tough for me and I never get a good connection. Dumbbells have been awesome for me and machines. Ive also utilized many of Eugene's tips and tricks over the years and he's extremely knowledgeable. Interesting you've never heard of Eugene especially with the size of his channel.
I find machines boring, my goal is not only to have great body I want to develop strength, absolute strength.. I can't do that with dumbbells and as I said I don't enjoy machines
I like Eugenes' content because he always gives broad strokes of information, diving into both sides of the coin. Good info, too, for the experienced and novices.
He listened to Alana Thrall literally when he said "do not touch the barbell"
you can microload barbells; don't usually get that luxury with db or machines/cables. plate loaded hammer strength machines still take stabilization and proprioception out of it so they are only ideal as supplementary work
You can achieve a greater ROM as well as a connection with BB so its positive and negative for both.
9:22 I agree that dumbbell bench press is a great chest builder, especially as an alternative to barbell bench press, but I believe that very few will achieve the same amount of loading on dumbbells that they would with a barbell. Thats why I prefer to do a mix of the two, especially with incline dumbbell press which helps to round out a full chest. Proper form for any lift goes a long way, I think.
Bench press barbell, Incline and declime dumbel and cables enough for a big chest you can sometimes do dips peck deck or hammers strenght chest press but Barbell bench and incline dumbel are must
@@titomurat1015 I usually do flat barbell bench, incline dumbbell bench, and cable flies for my chest. Flat bench is the primary movement though
@@edmonddantes2745 How much chest is cm?
@@titomurat1015 never measured my chest. I am 5'11", 205lbs. Bench press is 335 for a single rep.
You must be a noob if you are still doing flat barbell bench
Technically Eugene isn’t wrong - if anything, he’s correct. A lot of the top exercises for hypertrophy are actually machines and cable machines.
Eugene's great. always goes out of his way to be thoughtful and nuanced and recognize that there are many valid ways to train.
I clicked on the mindset video IN SPITE of the thumbnail as I was weary of the clickbaitiness. And I’m glad I did. Great video. Human psychology is wild.
As someone that competes in powerlifting and have a very heavy bias to squatting, benching, and deadlifting with a barbell I’ve always half jokingly said that the day I stop competing is the day I never use a barbell again. But more in the sense of like using an SSB to squat with instead of a barbell.
I use a buffalo bar for most of my squatting work. Then transition to the power bar about 4 weeks out from a meet.
It's been working pretty well for me. Shoulders aren't feeling so beat up.
For bodybuilding I agree, you don’t need barbells. For raw strength obviously they’re the trademark. And strength has its place in bodybuilding development but you can achieve a bodybuilding physique with minimal barbell work and you can also get strong without barbells but obviously doing a bit of both no matter what your goals will probably be beneficial and contribute to more dynamic growth in whatever goals you have.
raw (of a person): new to an activity or job and therefore lacking experience or skill
strength: the quality or state of being physically strong
raw strength is just a soundbite. theres no such thing as "raw strength" and if there was, there wouldnt be a difference in bodybuilding to something else
7:11 If you're benching like that it's because you choose to.
Barbell exercises is just more fun to do and make for more grueling fights with the weights. It's hard to feel like a savage raiding the enemy camp doing low incline unilateral cable fly-presses with some abstract "40 kilo" load.
All of my upper body barbell exercises also include a DB/Cable/Machine variation. I do Upper/Lower 4 times a week. If I barbell bench press on the first upper day, I'll do dumb bell bench press on the second Upper day. It is like getting the best of both worlds.
Fun to have a conversation about barbell with Solstheim in the background :)
eugene’s argument is like saying skateboarding is ineffective and overrated. we do it cus it’s badass not for “OPTIMlAL RESULTS”.. lol like yeah the bench is strenuous on the joints and so is weightlifting, we do it anyway cus we wanna be steezey strongguys (1 word)
I like Eugene. I might benefit from your approach on learning to squat regardless of my long legs, but it never really mattered to me, I just want strong tree tunk legs. I mostly stopped barbell exercises apart from OH-press and deadlift due to injuries.
I started watching your vids before Eugene, so already knew about increasing flexibility, and was aware of hip anatomy and positioning affecting squat depth. Then I saw Eugene's video, and wondered what you would have to say about it. The youtube algorithm must have known, because a few days later I get recommended this video from a year ago lol.
Great vid. Love the nuanced back and forth.
I’m so happy I found this video !
I didn’t have a barbell to train with for a very long time and it stopped me from understanding it and learning how to use it. I trained with dumbbells and kettlebells mostly. I found myself in a great gym this past year where the coaches helped me progress with the barbell and now I’ve finally built enough confidence to push heavy and controlled. My squat technique has changed enormously and I finally feel solid at the bottom. From that I’ve progressed my clean and jerk and front squat and many more lifts. Thanks for this great video! Your tips and approaches have helped me enormously!
Definitely agree enough with the squad part.
This is why i love weightlifting, its works your mobility which is something your average lifter never tries to work on
I'm going to disagree on the bench press. I think the main problem people run into is also their ego. You absolutely reach a point of diminishing returns lifting heavy, but with movements like the bench press, the key is letting your joints - ligaments and tendons - adapt and not let your muscular strength outpace what you can accommodate structurally. This slows bench progress more than other barbell movements of course.
I also don't know how much carryover there is between cables, machines, dumbbells, and calisthenics to raw strength and power in the upper body compared to a bench press. Seems hard to measure/determine. Can great BB benchers do better at the former exercises than their practitioners do at the bench? That's the question I'd like an answer to. If I train exclusively DB bench, will my BB bench go up faster than my DB bench if I trained exclusively BB bench (sub in any other BB bench replacement for DB bench in this scenario)?
his video is on the topic of hypertrophy.....
And that’s why I use weighted pull ups on gymnastic rings
Sitting in a deep squat is a basic human ability that is lost. It's not something that needs to be gained unless something went wrong during teen and adult years.
With that being said training each part of the leg individually is improving my health greatly. In 6 weeks I'll be done with this program and I'll see if it's barbell time again.
I think everyone can sit in a deep squat, it's just that most people have their back rounded at the bottom which makes it less ideal while handling heavy loads.
Liked your reaction. Now I'm gonna go and watch those mobility videos to see if they can help me with gaining mobility for the overhead squat, first time trying them, failing miserably.
You might look up Kelly Starret, and do not forget to think what you do, it's your body for life
Agree shoulders easily get over engaged when trying to go heavy on bench, I've torn muscle in my delt doing this and have switched to mainly dumbbells and cables instead. Also at just under 6'3 deadlifting off the floor took a long time to master and numerous back strains, I've found doing rack pulls from approx mid shin height and certain kettle bell exercises almost as effective and far less risk of injury.
The Skyrim background >>> goated
I really enjoy these videos especially that you take the time to see their point of view and find common ground. Through respectful discussion we all get better.
Weightlifting and Morrowind are my two most favourite things in the entire world. Subscribed.
As an Olympic lifter and powerlifter, not sure how I'd train without a barbell haha
Bro that Morrowind outro gave me chills. What a blast from the past. Oh, and great video too.
For me personally. I used to use a lot of machines and cables, and my physique saw decent progress. However since transitioning to Olympic lifting and my workouts becoming 80% barbell based, my physique has changed in so many ways for the better, I’m bigger, fuller, leaner and better developed
He is a very good guy. I found Eugene a couple of days ago. Thanks for this video.
for the average gym goers the bench is just the best measurement of strength, as they usually dont dedlift or squat
Comes down to sport specificity, if your sport requires barbell movements then ofcourse, do them. For example, BB doesn’t require barbells, a typical IFBB Pro workout featured on Muscle and Strength has a lot of athletes doing only machines or dumbbell movements.
Background choice is priceless
The comment on the bench press regarding the rotational forces (torque) on the joints: is this not the desired effect? In order to move around space (or move objects around space), our bodies rely heavily on generating torque, via various opposing forces - most simply put, the antagonistic forces. Instability as a desired training effect is beneficial in many scenarios, but to me seems less practically functional. In a real world application of force production, where you would want to move an object (or just yourself), in any given plane, you would never willingly choose to not engage bilaterally, you would use both feet if possible, and both hands; maximising points of contact.
For example, in a static start vertical leap, lots of torque is generated throughout the body to build elastic energy, and provide stability. For a running start single leg bound (such as triple jump) forces already in motion from running, are directed upwards for take off, so less energy is required to overcome the inertia of the body (as it's no longer inert) so less peak toque forces are required in the 'system'. Are we only ever supposed to be training in a way that leverages momentum or challenges internal active stability versus contact stability? Instability training just doesn't make sense as the primary form of working the body, as a complex system of forces acting in so many different vectors.
I don't like when youtubers make such bold claims lol. YOU SHOULDN'T USE BARBELLS!!! Barbells can load more weight and teach your body to work together as one unit. My personal experience though is to do unilateral training first. Make sure you don't have any significant muscle imbalances. 1 arm shoulder press, 1 arm row, lunges, etc... This will let you strengthen both sides equally until they are balanced. Then barbell work is great to go after. Training with dumbbells and barbells is key. You're missing out if you only use one of those.
Lifting heavy weights = fun. Therefore Barbells = good.
with regards to the bench press and shoulder stress: just narrow your grip, then you can tuck your elbows just fine.
My soul cries every time Zack says ‘discs’ instead of ‘plates’.
Technically barbells restrict plane of motion so yes they are suboptimal in theory
Funny thing is I clicked on your Toxic mindset video during the MJ Thumbnail and I would have never clicked on the current thumbnail! This makes me realize changing up your thumbnail is great for capturing multiple different kinds of fanbases.
I really like the Skyrim backgrounds you got going on Zack!
100% agree. correcting squats literally improves so much which is why a lot of adv squatters look so different vs beginners.
I follw both of you on Instagram for the same reason- coherent, evidence based content, and your ability to stay critical of yourselves. Keep it up
DEATH to 90 degree squats!
I like how my boy got Solstheim running in the background.
Flat benches are a dead exercise, like deadlifts, meaning the risk of long term injury isn’t worth the risk. Shoulder and lower back injuries are unforgiving.
I personally have never grown more in size and strength than when im focusing on rep strength in basic barbell lifts like squats rdls bench ohp rows etc, but I definitely see where people are coming from with the barbell alternatives/preferance of non barbells.
On my main sets, i am using big bad eleiko barbells.
Ahh Zack, finally made it to Solstheim I see!
Great job Alex
Myself 20 yr lifting, and the head coach of my gym (40 yrs lifting) simultaneously came to this conclusion for Eugene’s exact reasons, without even seeing the video. About 2 months ago 😂👌🏽
barbell = more weight and more weight = more muscle. Turn brain off, lift big weight
Hack squat and leg press equals big weight as well. And better stimulus to fatigue ratio
This did was not what I expected. Subscribed
all these powerlifters saying you have to use barbells have zero muscle. not talking about zack
You should use barbells but you shouldn’t train like powerlifters if you want to gain muscle.
@@Soccasteve Bingo!
I agree with Eugene on the back squat mobility thing because for some people, even an ass to grass will still load up the lower back more than is necessary if quads are the primary focus. Doesn't mean it's not a nice/necessary skill, but being dogmatic in that it's the most optimal exercise when loaded with a barbell is foolish as a front/zercher/belt squat could yield better benefits while utilizing the same level of mobility. It's something I think Zack overlooked. Conflated barbell back squats to just ass to grass squat movement pattern.
Great commentary, Zach. Enjoyed hearing your thoughts.
Fucking love the Skyrim stuff in the background man
I watched the toxic champion mindset on my break at work and it really stuck with me. I even talked about it with my coworkers after. I liked the original thumbnail but I'm glad it has more exposure now.
he had some insanely bad benchpress tips. This is why not having a disslike button is really bad
I use the "return youtube dislike" extension to still be able to see the dislikes but it's still not the same because people are less likely to even bother disliking in the first place knowing that it's not going to be public
Vegan gains called him out
That Morrowind outro gave me life.
The only advantage I see for dumbbells press as opposed to bench, is that you work out stabilizing muscles more. Don't know how you get injured if you practice good form and do stretches for your rotator cuffs.
If you're switching out barbells for stone lifting or farmers walk/strongman stuff, that's fine enough; or maybe if you're an acrobat or a gymnast, then you don't necessarily need barbells. But What I do know, is that when I finally switched to Olympic barbells and a squat rack for bench/squat/rows/overhead press; my lifts went up exponentially, and very quickly. Easily accessible/easy to use/easy to learn/effective/A purchase you only need to make once, if you buy good equipment.
At the end, your primary goal matters, eugene is a bodybuilder and fitness coach, he is not attached to barbell not Allergy to barbell.
Great reaction. I love the video of eugene but i also agree with the point you mentioned. I think everybody can develop a good squat position with proper training.
You make some great content Zack. Keep it going man 👊
This man got the Solstheim DLC background
I love the Skyrim background
Clicked for the info, stayed for the Skyrim background