Solid rant Dan. Completely agree. Personally I think the bike you start the stage on should be the bike you finish on (mechanical incidents aside). Otherwise, what's to stop a team swapping to a 20kg bike for the decent and then swapping again to a 6.8kg one for the climb over and over again. It feels wrong and goes against the "make cycling sustainable" principle.
Absolutely not. The bike change is no problem, the problem is if you do that, you need to get back without drafting your teams car. Anybody can swap their bike, this is not an issue at all and never has been.
Totally agree. We don't want highly specialized bikes with everyone needing 7 to get by. As you've said, we want cycling to be more sustainable and have more versatile bikes. Also, it would be interesting if grand tours would have one stage where you are only allowed assistance from neutral cars/mechanics and only allowed to take drink/food from neutral support.
someone who has never been to a race cavendish rode in?? been to many races with Cav you will always find him in the cars... and Sky i watched the whole team pass the commisars car behind their own car.
My wife, not a cyclist, was watching with me and said "Surely they are not allowed to ride behind the car like that?" She also noticed the "sticky bottle" technique being used excessively by various riders. Time for the UCI to get tough on this bike change nonsense and drafting cars.
Agreed. It's like the non-enforcement of traveling in the NBA. Outsiders look at the non-call and just surmise it's a BS sport. If you couldn't get away with it as a child playing with your mates then you shouldn't get away with it as pro being watched by children.
Some of the sticky bottles have been absolutely heinous. They may as well have just said, "Nah, don't need the bottle. Just put your hand on my arse and accelerate for 20 seconds."
Difficult to say given he didn’t make up 55 seconds riding behind the car, he was simply benefiting for 55 seconds. How much exactly did he benefit? Who knows.
The direct time benefit might have been just 20 seconds. It saved his teammates a lot of distance where they didn't have to pull him just as the climb was about to start. And a couple 100 watts difference for some time at a critical section could make a huge difference. But the whole point of a penalty is to be punitive. If they do stuff like this with premeditation, and the penalty is no worse than the benefit gained, then they have no incentive to follow the rules.
You want to change your bike to gain an advantage on a big climb then take the time penalty of making that change. You don’t get a free pull behind a car to make up that time! This is so straightforward I can’t even Believe it’s a conversation
Bang on Dan. I’d almost say that swapping bikes should be banned. What bike you start on should be what you finish on, unless you have a crash or terminal mechanical. Otherwise you keep the bike and you/your team/your mechanic have to decide the best gearing for the varied terrain from the start.
Then you would have a series of “ mechanicals”, or other bizarre bike failures. This type of rule manipulation happens in many other sports. Just this weekend the South Africa rugby team made a formal complaint against Australia for manufacturing non contested scrums in their recent test matches. It’s called the Law of Unintended Consequences 🤣😉
It should have been much more than 20 seconds. He was drafting behind the car in the valley and wouldn't have been able to catch the peloton with that gearing even with team mates around him, then benefitted from that gearing on the climb. I reckon they calculated that it would still be an advantage even with the 20 seconds. But Rog didn't perform to his best and Ben over-performed.
@@cote-dubucraphael6235 It's in my post. He would have lost more time on that particular bike had it not been for the drafting and then gained an advantage on the climb. A fair penalty would have been to give him the same time as O'Connor.
Exactly. If a penalty has zero punitive component, there is zero incentive to follow the rules. They catch you, it cost nothing. They don't catch you, jackpot. @@luciustarquiniuspriscus1408
"Of all the grand tours this season..." almost laughed. Vuelta was open from the moment Pogi said "nah". Remembering Giro and the Tour, we were not wondering if he can gain 25 secods, we were wondering if he can catch the breakaway that's 3 minutes ahead with 5km to go.
20 seconds was a joke. Bike changes for mechanical failures and flats but not for competetive advantage, Not for a fresh set of batteries either ;) They need to be more strict on drafting the team cars too. It needs to be stamped out.
Primoz is my favorite rider but he clearly tried to game the system, the system makes sense here (but it definitely feels bad being devils advocate for a UCI decision)
I'm not particulary a Roglic fan but I do apreciate your integrity. I'm cheering for the underdog O'connor this year. Btw I do not mean wish a crash or injury to befall Primoz. Had it gone unpunished it would have sperad through the peleton as a strategy.
Agreed. Vuelta is always the crazy grand Tour. Giro and Tour are more "predictable". And the huge amount of clmbing and heat this year threw a spanner into it as wll.
I grudgingly agree 100% with your assessment. in real time as I watched this, I almost did a double take as I couldn't believe that they would blatantly flaunt their disdain for the rules. I'm pulling for Primoz, but you made great points that made great sense.
I agree that the penalty was justified. It was his team’s decision to try and gain an advantage through a bike change, and they got caught allowing him to draft to catch back up to the peloton. Still, I think he’ll win the GC because he is so strong.
@dan, you are right about Roglic. In spite of him leaving the best team in the world, i'm still supporting him. But i actually think 20 seconds was a bit low. I think he is suffering under the pressure and i hope he pulls through.
Very well and compellingly explained - and fully agreed. Unfortunately it is just one more exposure of the incompetence of BRB's DSs. There are so many of them. That team has much more potential.
Not so sure this was team management decisions to swap bikes. But rather the rider. He switched bikes for the mountains also in the 2023 Giro, and for sure that was not BRB but Visma.
100% agree with you Dan. Yeah UCI need to get tougher on riding behind cars and sticky bottles. It never occurred to me before that the pushing of a rider by a team mechanic following a bike change should be penalised, good point well made.
Wheneer I see a sticky bottle I wondr Hmm, tht seems excessive What's up with that.?" How sticky does a bottle have to be to get a penalty. Thak for all those camera bike in and around the race. Nothn is hidden anylonger and that's a good ting as I see it.
Yes, it was justified. I was watching live yesterday, when I saw that darfting I tought, a penalty is coming. Lucky for us fans, gives a little more excitment for the race!!!
Spot on regarding the Roglic incident Dan. Roglic got humiliated by Mas on that final climb anyway hence the slightly prickly post-stage.....Oh I didn't know where Ben O'Connor was BS....interview .
The reality is that, on top of the UCI penalty, Roglič punished himself with the bike change. Whatever slight advantage there was in using the other bike, it was not going to make up for the time lost during the switch and the energy expended racing back to the speeding peloton. He looked embarrassed when questioned about the tactic.
He and teh team got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. I suspect the team thought it would slip through under the radar. In my mind the time and manner of the bike swap was panned in great detail.
@@rhbusby The coverage that I saw was commented on by a couple of ex-pros. One was dead silent, and the other said that Roglič was doing exactly what he should be doing. One of them had doped during their career - I’ll let you guess which one.
This was very justified. Happy for Benny, he still got all the changes for victory. Primoz isn't the most consistent rider in terms of staying upright on he's bike either, it's certainly getting really interesting. What a Vuelta!
Without the time penalty I'm not sure if the bike change saved any time at all. Even with the drafting it still takes effort and energy catching back on.
But using th car has a real effect on reducing the the amount of energy. Try drafting a friend in a car on a lonely road and see how much it educes the enegy required. . Changing bikes - go right ahead, but no drafting back to the peleton. as long as both bikes are UCI legal
@@rhbusby I'm a retired racer and understand the benefit. I'm saying if he stayed on the 2x for the climb. Unless the 2x didn't have the gearing for the 24% pitch.
I think bike change should only be allowed during a mountain TT stage. This is completely unnecessary in an ordinary stage (yes it's a very steep mountain stage but still).
1. Roglič 2. Mas 3. O'Connor 4. Carapaz 5. Landa 6. Gaudu 7. Lipowitz 8. Skjelmose 9. Rodriguez 10. Yates Satisfied of this Top 10. Nothing to lose either way, and expecting to be surprised in this final week.
It appears that without the draft Roglic would never have seen the front of the race again. At the time the peleton were drilling it at 55 km/hr from 24 km to 18 km to go on a 2 degree incline. This is why the peleton was single file and 400 m long. As soon as it hits 5 degrees, then are popping out the back. Penalize each rider on the team 1 minute. Remember they were drafting at 72 to 78 km/ hr behind the car when the peleton was doing 55 km/hr. This is not a flat tyre or a crash. Someone asked me, Why he did not just get in the car and start cyling again when the car caught the peleton. If Roglic 'wins' this tour, it will forever be known he did by cheating. Ask Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Ricci, Contador etc.
Totally agree Dan. Primos should've had the book thrown at him in my opinion. His choice to swap bikes, his time to make up. I also totally agree with you on the TT scenario! Riders choice riders problem to get back up to speed. Nobody else should be involved. I wonder what Bora Red Bull would've done if O'Conner had been given a helping hand on the toughest gradients of the final climb on Sunday!
Well said and I agree with your thoughts. If the team wants to drop back to help him, it may be OK, It's part of cycling. No drafing the cars for a tactical advantage after a strategic bike swap. I'm often a critic of UCI decisions but they got this almost right - needed more of a penalty to make ans example.
Should have had a penalty proportional to the time spent drafting. Additionally, if he swaps bikes again I would fully expect Decathlon to immediately put the hammer down.
Hello GCN ! Thanks for this new video ! I think that concerning the penalties for Roglic, it's normal. He decided to make the bike change so it's up to him (and his teammates) to get back. For the other cases (due to breakdown or a crash) it's still difficult because there can be different cases. Due to breakdown and brought back during a stage race is different that a breakdown on Paris-Roubaix for instance (where bringing back is just not an option). On the stage race, you will brought back and there will be almost not impact while in the single races, you just lost the race. What do you think ? Are all the races following the same rules ?
Fully justified drafting penalty. Unnecessary bike changes just create more messy and possibly dangerous race situations and should not be rewarded. Kudos to the UCI judges
@@andrehufschmid What if multiple riders suddenly decided to change bikes and dropped back through the peloton? - with a load of teammates, cars stopping all over the road, mechanics running in all directions amongst all the other cars and riders
Fully agree, don’t like to see bike changes for perceived advantage. Should have to get back without assistance from the team car. Surely that bike Roglic took is under the 6.8kg weight limit as well?
it was an absolute stupid bike change - on top of the 20s penalty he arrived at the bottom of the climb with fatigued legs due to the chase and he didn't have optimal gears due to the 1x bike he was on. Hopefully RBH finally will learn something about tactics - not the first mistake after all...
I think part of the reason they look the other way when it's a puncture is the sheer size of the convoy. With 22 teams at the Vuelta, if each team only has 2 cars, that's 44 cars, plus official cars, plus neutral support, etc. It's probably impossible not to get some draft from that anyway. Further, most riders are just "surfing" the cars, tucking in, passing, tucking in, passing, etc, likely not spending considerable time behind any one car. Given that Vollering got a20 second penalty at the 2023 TdFF for drafting, and she was coming back from a puncture, Roglic's penalty does maybe seem light, but absolutely justified and, for once from the UCI, consistent. Also, on that incident, DS Danny Stam said "...we can lose the Tour de France on five seconds". Congratulations on being right.
Another questionable tactic by Roglic ... after the bike change it took him about 4km to get back to the front of the peleton, so he (and his team mates) weren't in top shape at the beginning of that last climb. As it turned out, those different gears did not seem to make any difference to his performance vs the competition. Didn't he swap bikes during a TT at the Giro last year, with similar lack of advantage?
It's standard nowadays to do the bike swap in mountain time trials that have a flat section in the beginning. The swap is from a TT bike to a climbing bike and there most definitely is an advantage to be had there. This was different though.
I agree! Since Roglic himself chose to change bikes to gain an advantage, he should be penalized. However, he was lucky that it was only a 20-second penalty.
I agree with the many comments to ban bike changes without a mechanical issue. That's the bigger ossue here. Such tactics opens a rider up to take additional liberties. A slippery slope.
Truly a slippery slope. His bike could have been set up as was the swapwed one for the entire stage. The stage profile was not a surprise. Swao plus drafting his team car plus multiple team ridrs drafting stinks of an intentinal tactic.
Oh and aren't bike changes for non-mechanical reasons already banned? I believe it applied specifically to having a bike waiting at a specific point, rather than being taken from the car. IIRC, the UCI has had to approve an exception for TTs like last year's Giro to allow riders to swap. Surely the rule could be adapted. Of course until riders start claiming a flat and then take a different bike anyway...
Cavendish did something similar during the stage he won in the tour. Twice if memory serves. I couldn’t believe he got away with it. It should be an instant demotion to last on the stage. Dan is 100% correct. It’s calculated abuse of a reasonable leniency that everyone observes for crashes and mechanicals. In fact I would argue that changing to a significantly different specification of bike mid stage a la Team Sky should be banned altogether. Makes you wonder what other rules they think they can “bend.”
That's something I did not understand with Roglic and Bora did something so stupid. They would have easily gotten back into the group. Secondly, why wait so late to do the swap? And third but not least, why have Lipowitz go full gas on the initial final ramp of the climb for Roglic, then pretty much fade and let Mas get back to his wheel? Why not wait until 1000-500m from the top and give it a final charge up the climb? It would have ended pretty much with the same time gaps with less effort.
Excellent opinion on rth Roglic 20 second penalty. I've always understood as you infer in your presentation that th comissas turn a blind eye on 'drafting" when it is permits a rider with mechanical or crash issues to return to the peloton. I've been watching cycling fo more than 30 years. The distinction is that Roglic and his team used the bike swap and allowing him to return to the peleton as an affirmative strategy and to gain an advantage. I agree with you that he was lucky to receive the minimal (20 ses) rather than a more substantial penalty. For me the tipping point is that it was a planned strategy to gain an advantage not to put him on equal foorting with th other rides. I freely admit Roglic is talented but "something' about him just doesn't sit right with me. He seems to consider himself special and abvoe all the others. He is not.
🤔Do you think the punishment fit the crime or was Roglič unfairly penalised? ⚖
Yes
Needed to be harsher
Surely the benefit of stopping was far more than 20secs
He was lucky to get only 20 secs, planned stop, lower gearing for the climb and had to draft to get back on. It should have been a bigger penalty.
Roglic should be penalized for his poor choice of using a 1X drivetrain.
Solid rant Dan. Completely agree. Personally I think the bike you start the stage on should be the bike you finish on (mechanical incidents aside). Otherwise, what's to stop a team swapping to a 20kg bike for the decent and then swapping again to a 6.8kg one for the climb over and over again. It feels wrong and goes against the "make cycling sustainable" principle.
Same as in MTB; one bike only. Any problems, tough.....make the bikes/ equipment more reliable. Similar to motorsport.....
Absolutely not. The bike change is no problem, the problem is if you do that, you need to get back without drafting your teams car. Anybody can swap their bike, this is not an issue at all and never has been.
Absolutely agree. I would like to see the riders choose their bike/equipment and ride EVERY stage, including time trials, on that choice.
@@Andy_ATB So, if you crash and damage your bike, sorry, see you next year?
Totally agree. We don't want highly specialized bikes with everyone needing 7 to get by. As you've said, we want cycling to be more sustainable and have more versatile bikes.
Also, it would be interesting if grand tours would have one stage where you are only allowed assistance from neutral cars/mechanics and only allowed to take drink/food from neutral support.
Being a huge Primoz fan myself, I think he was incredibly lucky to get the minimum penalty and his Director of sport should have known better.
I too was a fan until he attacked sepp last vuelta - very bad teammate, bad sportsmanship, poor way to repay sepp for helping primos win the giro
@@jamesconsidine6552This again? What about Jonas who attacked Sepp 3-4 times and nobody even said a thing?
@@francescosaturnino113 Jonas should have helped sepp for sure
@@jamesconsidine6552 don't cry, at the end they let him win. This year we can see if he deserved that win.
@@ChumpSLO who’s crying? You guys? Sepp is not going to get close this year for sure…
To be fair Roglic did everything except get in the car and adjust the radio station, fully justified penalty.
I honestly doubt with the gear ratio he had on the bike he probably wouldn’t have gotten back to the peloton
@@philipmeisterl You have never ridden a bike. lmao
someone who has never been to a race cavendish rode in?? been to many races with Cav you will always find him in the cars... and Sky i watched the whole team pass the commisars car behind their own car.
Should be a bigger time penalty...40-60sec
@@trudgin62this one isn’t quite the same to me. It was a planned change. Car waiting. Cav was using the car traffic. This was deliberate as a tactic.
My wife, not a cyclist, was watching with me and said "Surely they are not allowed to ride behind the car like that?" She also noticed the "sticky bottle" technique being used excessively by various riders. Time for the UCI to get tough on this bike change nonsense and drafting cars.
Agreed. It's like the non-enforcement of traveling in the NBA. Outsiders look at the non-call and just surmise it's a BS sport. If you couldn't get away with it as a child playing with your mates then you shouldn't get away with it as pro being watched by children.
Some of the sticky bottles have been absolutely heinous. They may as well have just said, "Nah, don't need the bottle. Just put your hand on my arse and accelerate for 20 seconds."
lol "time to toughen up" its literally happened once... find me another time a rider made a tactical bike change and was then caught drafting?
Never thought about the push given getting back up to speed in a TT but you are 100% right.
Same, good point Dan!
Exactly
So push at TT change is also not alowed?
@@90330it is but should not
I agree too.
They need to start adding on 5 -10 mins for slipstreaming. Then it stops
I agree with you Dan. Further more I'm flabbergasted that he's not crashed out of the race YET!!
Race aint over yet😂
Cattivi😈
I read somewhere that Roglic drafted the car for about 55 seconds. If this is true, then perhaps the 20 second penalty was fairly light?
Difficult to say given he didn’t make up 55 seconds riding behind the car, he was simply benefiting for 55 seconds. How much exactly did he benefit? Who knows.
I think it would be appropriate to make the penalty the same as the time they were drafting. And if they do it a second time, double the penalty.
The direct time benefit might have been just 20 seconds. It saved his teammates a lot of distance where they didn't have to pull him just as the climb was about to start. And a couple 100 watts difference for some time at a critical section could make a huge difference.
But the whole point of a penalty is to be punitive. If they do stuff like this with premeditation, and the penalty is no worse than the benefit gained, then they have no incentive to follow the rules.
You want to change your bike to gain an advantage on a big climb then take the time penalty of making that change. You don’t get a free pull behind a car to make up that time! This is so straightforward I can’t even Believe it’s a conversation
Bang on Dan. I’d almost say that swapping bikes should be banned. What bike you start on should be what you finish on, unless you have a crash or terminal mechanical. Otherwise you keep the bike and you/your team/your mechanic have to decide the best gearing for the varied terrain from the start.
Then you would have a series of “ mechanicals”, or other bizarre bike failures. This type of rule manipulation happens in many other sports. Just this weekend the South Africa rugby team made a formal complaint against Australia for manufacturing non contested scrums in their recent test matches. It’s called the Law of Unintended Consequences 🤣😉
Well stated. To me the bike swap plus the drafting belies a strategic decision by him and the team. They deserved more of a penaltry.
Was the bike legal in respect of weight?
It should have been much more than 20 seconds. He was drafting behind the car in the valley and wouldn't have been able to catch the peloton with that gearing even with team mates around him, then benefitted from that gearing on the climb. I reckon they calculated that it would still be an advantage even with the 20 seconds. But Rog didn't perform to his best and Ben over-performed.
Why more than 20 sec? After the swap he was not behind more than 20 sec. Giving PR more than 20 seconds make no sens whatsoever
@@cote-dubucraphael6235 It's in my post. He would have lost more time on that particular bike had it not been for the drafting and then gained an advantage on the climb. A fair penalty would have been to give him the same time as O'Connor.
If got caught stealing $1M, do you just return the money, wait that's the current logic.
@@bentang6803 Why the f would you compare stealing 1M to a bike race. Conplete nonsense
Exactly. If a penalty has zero punitive component, there is zero incentive to follow the rules. They catch you, it cost nothing. They don't catch you, jackpot. @@luciustarquiniuspriscus1408
Really appreciate Dan's GC-experience driven analysis and opinion.
I was concerned about the drafting at the time tbh. A bit stupid to use his car.
100% agree with everything stated. Albeit, I think 30, or 40 seconds, may have been a more representative punishment.
Excellently presented case.
"Of all the grand tours this season..." almost laughed. Vuelta was open from the moment Pogi said "nah". Remembering Giro and the Tour, we were not wondering if he can gain 25 secods, we were wondering if he can catch the breakaway that's 3 minutes ahead with 5km to go.
20 seconds was a joke. Bike changes for mechanical failures and flats but not for competetive advantage, Not for a fresh set of batteries either ;) They need to be more strict on drafting the team cars too. It needs to be stamped out.
I think mid-race swapping between different types of bikes to gain an advantage should be prohibited entirely.
You’ve explained the penalty very well. I now understand and have to agree with you.
He robbed himself with them tactics! Knucklehead!
Roglič fan here. He deserved it.
I was really surprised that the drafting wasn't noticed and commented upon during commentary, so am pleased the UCI have done the right thing here.
After you explain it that way, I totally agree :). Nice insight!
I like how the communique handing down Roglic's punishment has Ref's Whistles down the right-hand margin.
Primoz is my favorite rider but he clearly tried to game the system, the system makes sense here (but it definitely feels bad being devils advocate for a UCI decision)
Totally! I don’t side with the UCI most of the time (feels kind of yucky🤣), but I think 20 seconds was kind on that one.
I'm not particulary a Roglic fan but I do apreciate your integrity. I'm cheering for the underdog O'connor this year. Btw I do not mean wish a crash or injury to befall Primoz. Had it gone unpunished it would have sperad through the peleton as a strategy.
Great video and this years La Vuelta has been the best race for years, thoroughly enjoyed every stage, nothing is guaranteed for sure!
Agreed. Vuelta is always the crazy grand Tour. Giro and Tour are more "predictable". And the huge amount of clmbing and heat this year threw a spanner into it as wll.
GCN Racing, nice video my guy
10:21 I'd take a shot at that hoodie, thanks Dan!
1. Roglic
2. O'Connor
3. Mas
4. Landa
5. Carapaz
6. Skjelmose
7. Gaudu
8. Lipowitz
9. Rodríguez
10. Yates
I agree. No mechanic push or drafting for non breakdown bike change
Ineos have a gem on their hands with Castrillo.
It's about time Ineos had a good rider prform they have been underpeforming for quite a while now, in my opinion.
@@rhbusby Considering their bankroll, ugh.
I grudgingly agree 100% with your assessment. in real time as I watched this, I almost did a double take as I couldn't believe that they would blatantly flaunt their disdain for the rules. I'm pulling for Primoz, but you made great points that made great sense.
1. Roglic
2. Enric Mas
3. Mikel Landa
4. Richard Carapaz
5. Ben O'Connor
6. Adam Yates
7. Lipowitz
8. Skjelmose
9. Carlito Rodriguez
10. Sasha Vlasov
I missed your coverage of the TdF this year, Dan. Not sure if you were presenting on some other channel or media outlet.
I’ve seen so many times changing a bike like TT stage and they allow it. I think this rule is confusing in my opinion. What makes the difference?
My prediction for the final top 10: Mas, Carapaz, Landa, Roglic, O'Connor, Rodriguez, Lipowitz, Yates, Skjelmose, Sivakov
Courageous picks. I can see it. Mas looks better every day. (and I’m rooting for Roglic).
Well done Zwift
I agree that the penalty was justified. It was his team’s decision to try and gain an advantage through a bike change, and they got caught allowing him to draft to catch back up to the peloton. Still, I think he’ll win the GC because he is so strong.
@dan, you are right about Roglic. In spite of him leaving the best team in the world, i'm still supporting him. But i actually think 20 seconds was a bit low. I think he is suffering under the pressure and i hope he pulls through.
NBC highlights only showed 2 seconds of Roglic riding behind the team car and my heart drop because I knew this would be an issue.
Very well and compellingly explained - and fully agreed.
Unfortunately it is just one more exposure of the incompetence of BRB's DSs.
There are so many of them.
That team has much more potential.
Not so sure this was team management decisions to swap bikes. But rather the rider. He switched bikes for the mountains also in the 2023 Giro, and for sure that was not BRB but Visma.
Dan is 100% on the money here. And I’m glad he brought up bike changes in ITT. It’s not even debatable.
100% agree with you Dan. Yeah UCI need to get tougher on riding behind cars and sticky bottles. It never occurred to me before that the pushing of a rider by a team mechanic following a bike change should be penalised, good point well made.
Wheneer I see a sticky bottle I wondr Hmm, tht seems excessive What's up with that.?" How sticky does a bottle have to be to get a penalty. Thak for all those camera bike in and around the race. Nothn is hidden anylonger and that's a good ting as I see it.
Just watched this after Wouts Crash 😢😢
Yes, it was justified. I was watching live yesterday, when I saw that darfting I tought, a penalty is coming. Lucky for us fans, gives a little more excitment for the race!!!
Spot on regarding the Roglic incident Dan.
Roglic got humiliated by Mas on that final climb anyway hence the slightly prickly post-stage.....Oh I didn't know where Ben O'Connor was BS....interview .
The reality is that, on top of the UCI penalty, Roglič punished himself with the bike change. Whatever slight advantage there was in using the other bike, it was not going to make up for the time lost during the switch and the energy expended racing back to the speeding peloton. He looked embarrassed when questioned about the tactic.
He and teh team got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. I suspect the team thought it would slip through under the radar. In my mind the time and manner of the bike swap was panned in great detail.
@@rhbusby The coverage that I saw was commented on by a couple of ex-pros. One was dead silent, and the other said that Roglič was doing exactly what he should be doing. One of them had doped during their career - I’ll let you guess which one.
This was very justified. Happy for Benny, he still got all the changes for victory. Primoz isn't the most consistent rider in terms of staying upright on he's bike either, it's certainly getting really interesting. What a Vuelta!
Without the time penalty I'm not sure if the bike change saved any time at all. Even with the drafting it still takes effort and energy catching back on.
But using th car has a real effect on reducing the the amount of energy. Try drafting a friend in a car on a lonely road and see how much it educes the enegy required. . Changing bikes - go right ahead, but no drafting back to the peleton. as long as both bikes are UCI legal
@@rhbusby I'm a retired racer and understand the benefit. I'm saying if he stayed on the 2x for the climb. Unless the 2x didn't have the gearing for the 24% pitch.
Roglic was blessed he didn’t lose the race over it… 20 seconds was a gift.
It’s very much correct. I felt already strange when he ran behind the car along w three team mates
I think bike change should only be allowed during a mountain TT stage. This is completely unnecessary in an ordinary stage (yes it's a very steep mountain stage but still).
You make a good point here. Swapping bikes cost him a lot unfortunately.
I want Roglic to win and I think that he was fairly punished.
1. Roglič
2. Mas
3. O'Connor
4. Carapaz
5. Landa
6. Gaudu
7. Lipowitz
8. Skjelmose
9. Rodriguez
10. Yates
Satisfied of this Top 10. Nothing to lose either way, and expecting to be surprised in this final week.
It appears that without the draft Roglic would never have seen the front of the race again. At the time the peleton were drilling it at 55 km/hr from 24 km to 18 km to go on a 2 degree incline. This is why the peleton was single file and 400 m long. As soon as it hits 5 degrees, then are popping out the back.
Penalize each rider on the team 1 minute.
Remember they were drafting at 72 to 78 km/ hr behind the car when the peleton was doing 55 km/hr.
This is not a flat tyre or a crash. Someone asked me,
Why he did not just get in the car and start cyling again when the car caught the peleton.
If Roglic 'wins' this tour, it will forever be known he did by cheating.
Ask Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Ricci, Contador etc.
Fair penalty. Lucky it wasn’t more
Totally agree Dan. Primos should've had the book thrown at him in my opinion. His choice to swap bikes, his time to make up. I also totally agree with you on the TT scenario! Riders choice riders problem to get back up to speed. Nobody else should be involved. I wonder what Bora Red Bull would've done if O'Conner had been given a helping hand on the toughest gradients of the final climb on Sunday!
Well said and I agree with your thoughts. If the team wants to drop back to help him, it may be OK, It's part of cycling. No drafing the cars for a tactical advantage after a strategic bike swap. I'm often a critic of UCI decisions but they got this almost right - needed more of a penalty to make ans example.
@@rhbusby amen.
Should have had a penalty proportional to the time spent drafting. Additionally, if he swaps bikes again I would fully expect Decathlon to immediately put the hammer down.
It's a bit like saying 'I' m gonna punch you in the face, but first let me go get my knuckle duster '
Excellent rant
Hello GCN !
Thanks for this new video !
I think that concerning the penalties for Roglic, it's normal. He decided to make the bike change so it's up to him (and his teammates) to get back.
For the other cases (due to breakdown or a crash) it's still difficult because there can be different cases.
Due to breakdown and brought back during a stage race is different that a breakdown on Paris-Roubaix for instance (where bringing back is just not an option).
On the stage race, you will brought back and there will be almost not impact while in the single races, you just lost the race.
What do you think ? Are all the races following the same rules ?
Lets try this. :)
1. Roglič
2. O'Connor
3. Mas
4. Carapaz
5. Gaudu
6. Landa
7. Lipowitz
8. Sivakov
9. Skjelmose
10. Rodriguez
All I know is my two favorite sports are playing out in Spain right now. I'm having to spilt my viewing time between the Vuelta and America Cup.
Fully agree with you, Dan.
Fully agree with all Dan’s comments on penalties
Fully justified drafting penalty. Unnecessary bike changes just create more messy and possibly dangerous race situations and should not be rewarded. Kudos to the UCI judges
Dangerous? Your statement makes no sense at all.
@@andrehufschmid What if multiple riders suddenly decided to change bikes and dropped back through the peloton? - with a load of teammates, cars stopping all over the road, mechanics running in all directions amongst all the other cars and riders
Fully agree, don’t like to see bike changes for perceived advantage. Should have to get back without assistance from the team car. Surely that bike Roglic took is under the 6.8kg weight limit as well?
Totally agree!
1. Roglič
2. Mas
3. O'Cooner
4. Carapaz
5. Landa
6. Skjelmose
7. Rodriguez Carlos
8. Gaudu
9. Adam Yates
10. Lipowitz
I actually think Sepp can get up into the top 10 also. He's 12th now.
@@slayer6936 Yeah, it depends on whether Lipowitz has to work hard for Roglič or anyone has a big crack
What’s a “ Coonor “ 😳
100% agree, if you make the choice to stop then you shouldn't get the leeway given to a rider forced to stop
Swapping bikes should not be allowed. End of story
it was an absolute stupid bike change - on top of the 20s penalty he arrived at the bottom of the climb with fatigued legs due to the chase and he didn't have optimal gears due to the 1x bike he was on. Hopefully RBH finally will learn something about tactics - not the first mistake after all...
RANT ON! You are so right. 20 seconds is being kind.
Way to bring the fury Dan. We don’t know when he would have caught back on without the car so the 20 seconds was a gift.
Love that classy tee shirt!
I think part of the reason they look the other way when it's a puncture is the sheer size of the convoy. With 22 teams at the Vuelta, if each team only has 2 cars, that's 44 cars, plus official cars, plus neutral support, etc. It's probably impossible not to get some draft from that anyway. Further, most riders are just "surfing" the cars, tucking in, passing, tucking in, passing, etc, likely not spending considerable time behind any one car.
Given that Vollering got a20 second penalty at the 2023 TdFF for drafting, and she was coming back from a puncture, Roglic's penalty does maybe seem light, but absolutely justified and, for once from the UCI, consistent.
Also, on that incident, DS Danny Stam said "...we can lose the Tour de France on five seconds". Congratulations on being right.
I have no problem with penalty for Roglic, but it would be nice to see them. Apply it all year long for everyone.
Spot on, Dan! He should have been docked more…
Thanks Dan and crew , it might have been him grabbing the bumper ? Kidding
Top 10 prediction:
1 Roglic
2 Mas
3 Landa
4 O'Connor
5 Carapaz
6 Skjelmose
7 Lipowitz
8 Rodriguez
9 Gaudu
10 Yates
I was surprised the penalties were delt out. It is appropriate.
I agree with your assessment.
My predictions are:
1. Roglić
2. Mas
3. O'Connor
4. Landa
5. Carapaz
6. Rodriguez
7. Skjelmose
8. Sivakov
9. Yates
10. Gaudu
That’s a great shirt for the topic
Absolutely perfect penalty. Didn't ruin the race, whilst still keeping accountability.
People will rather change the bike to a 1-by setup to avoid using a SRAM front derailleur...wow
Another questionable tactic by Roglic ... after the bike change it took him about 4km to get back to the front of the peleton, so he (and his team mates) weren't in top shape at the beginning of that last climb. As it turned out, those different gears did not seem to make any difference to his performance vs the competition. Didn't he swap bikes during a TT at the Giro last year, with similar lack of advantage?
It's standard nowadays to do the bike swap in mountain time trials that have a flat section in the beginning. The swap is from a TT bike to a climbing bike and there most definitely is an advantage to be had there. This was different though.
Yes but so did numerous other riders ut they all had to slow down and ride solo to the finish not drat like it was a pursuit on h velodrome.
Agree with you 100%
It wasn't a mechanical, he just changed bikes so I think it fair to dock him for drafting from his team car.
I agree! Since Roglic himself chose to change bikes to gain an advantage, he should be penalized. However, he was lucky that it was only a 20-second penalty.
Very nice t-shirt. How can I get one?
100% right point.
What Roglič did was incredible stupid. So 20 s penalty is a very gently reminder that he should think better.
1. Roglič
2. O'Connor
3. Mas
4. Carapaz
5. Landa
6. Gaudu
7. Sivakov
8. Rodriguez
9. Skjelmose
10. Kuss
I agree with the many comments to ban bike changes without a mechanical issue. That's the bigger ossue here. Such tactics opens a rider up to take additional liberties. A slippery slope.
Truly a slippery slope. His bike could have been set up as was the swapwed one for the entire stage. The stage profile was not a surprise. Swao plus drafting his team car plus multiple team ridrs drafting stinks of an intentinal tactic.
Oh and aren't bike changes for non-mechanical reasons already banned? I believe it applied specifically to having a bike waiting at a specific point, rather than being taken from the car. IIRC, the UCI has had to approve an exception for TTs like last year's Giro to allow riders to swap. Surely the rule could be adapted. Of course until riders start claiming a flat and then take a different bike anyway...
prediction time!
1. Roglic
2. Ricky Mas
3. B'Oconnor
4. Landa
5. Richie Carapaz
6. Lipowitz
7. Rodriguez
8. Gaudu
9. Yates
10. Skjelmose
gonna be a fun last week
Cavendish did something similar during the stage he won in the tour. Twice if memory serves. I couldn’t believe he got away with it. It should be an instant demotion to last on the stage. Dan is 100% correct. It’s calculated abuse of a reasonable leniency that everyone observes for crashes and mechanicals. In fact I would argue that changing to a significantly different specification of bike mid stage a la Team Sky should be banned altogether. Makes you wonder what other rules they think they can “bend.”
That's something I did not understand with Roglic and Bora did something so stupid. They would have easily gotten back into the group. Secondly, why wait so late to do the swap? And third but not least, why have Lipowitz go full gas on the initial final ramp of the climb for Roglic, then pretty much fade and let Mas get back to his wheel? Why not wait until 1000-500m from the top and give it a final charge up the climb? It would have ended pretty much with the same time gaps with less effort.
Excellent opinion on rth Roglic 20 second penalty. I've always understood as you infer in your presentation that th comissas turn a blind eye on 'drafting" when it is permits a rider with mechanical or crash issues to return to the peloton. I've been watching cycling fo more than 30 years. The distinction is that Roglic and his team used the bike swap and allowing him to return to the peleton as an affirmative strategy and to gain an advantage. I agree with you that he was lucky to receive the minimal (20 ses) rather than a more substantial penalty. For me the tipping point is that it was a planned strategy to gain an advantage not to put him on equal foorting with th other rides. I freely admit Roglic is talented but "something' about him just doesn't sit right with me. He seems to consider himself special and abvoe all the others. He is not.
why not:
Roglic
O‘Connor
Carapaz
Mas
Yates
Landa
Rodriguez
Lipowitz
Gaudu
Skjelmose
- hoping for the GCN Sweater, but even more for a great 3rd week.