This is coming from an old school DM from way back in the early 1980's. You aren't looking at this module the right way. I've run the original "Tomb of Horrors" MANY times. It's a great deal of fun to run for both DM AND players. Here's the catch. This module is NOT balanced. D&D was NOT balanced back in the day. Balance wasn't even a word we uttered. We rolled with the punches and had fun with the imbalance. Now with a crazy module like Tomb of Horrors, it's made to kill characters. And it's usually a meat grinder. This is a tournament module. It was designed for tournaments. Play it like one. It comes with a long list of pre-gen characters in the back. Prepare them before-hand. keep them in a stack. Hand them out before play. When a death happens, hand out the next one. This isn't a dungeon to have your players run with their favorite characters that they're attached to. This is more a "fun-one-off". Have fun with it. Have fun with the goofy situations. Have fun with the deaths. Here's the other thing with this module. This isn't your typical module. HAVE FUN WITH THE DEATHS!!! Don't try to lead the characters into their deaths cackling as you do it. Don't smirk as they die. However, KILL THE BASTARDS. It's not you killing them. It's the damn dungeon and their own stupidity and their own dumb luck. This is the mantra of the game "Paranoia" as well. Players embrace character deaths in that game and often initiate their own deaths to cackles of glee from everyone around the table as their cause chain reaction deaths to occur. So don't be afraid of player killing or players not having fun in this module. This module is different than your typical dungeon module. It's NOT a campaign style module, or something that you fit into a long story, or something you use to advance long running characters or use characters that players are attached to. It's also NOT a module for people who prefer role playing and, once again, getting attached to their characters. This is.. send pre-generated characters in.. some die.. send in more pre-generated characters.. until some players succeed. And it can be a LOT of fun.
Absolutely THIS. Tomb of Horrors was designed when D&D wasn't even called a "roleplaying game" yet. Players didn't get so attached with their characters (which barely had any personality, I mean the characters not the players, haha). This is from a time when character death could be seen as fun. Tomb of Horrors tests the perception (and paranoia) of the players, more than the characters. Characters are supposed to be disposable. It remind me of some retro-clone (can't remember the name) where each player starts with like 3-4 level 0 characters, and they begin to die en masse... and the character that DOES SURVIVE the initial dungeon becomes the definitive adventurer at level 1.
@@Arvaniz One thing that I've always wanted to do was adapt "The Tomb of Horrors" to be used in the game "Paranoia". It would fit that game so well. Imagine the computer sending the troubleshooters to this newly dug out section of Alpha Complex that no one knew was there... TMB sector or something like that. Or maybe it's some complex that was put together by some long, forgotten secret society, and there's something really important in there.
The tomb of horrors is supposed to be hard. Bumping the player level and giving them extra lives goes against the design of the module. If you don't want your players to die then that's fine, but you are un-doing the difficulty level. Also, your players should be aware of the difficulties associated with the module and accept that they probably will die. That's the whole allure of the tomb. But most importantly: if they're having fun then you did good. Don't beat yourself up over it if they enjoyed it lol
Going to second this^^..... This module was designed with the sole intent of being a glorified kill room. This was Gary Gygax's middle finger to characters he thought had become too overconfident in their ability to overcome anything. It was originally presented as a speed run at conventions and players were bringing loads of characters to the party for the specific reason that they knew going into it that the DM was trying to be a murderous bastard. So the players always knew what they were getting themselves into prior to attempting the module, and character death was almost a given. That said, and knowing that history (which is pretty well known in the D&D community), it sounds like you may have gone too soft on your players, or it simply just wasn't the appropriate campaign for your group.
As Brian Jones stated in the old days players were supposed to bring several characters so they could be replaced after one died. So they are supposed to get extra lives. This way is slightly faster, and doesn't feel as bloody, so probably wasn't the best way. Although at least their spell slots would still be used up.
Brian Jones well, it depends on the context, they have to clear the tomb fast enough so they don’t get bored, but they also need to be frustrated(but not enough so that they throw a punch or rage-quit) and it’s not fun if they don’t win in the end. And besides, if you want to have something other than a Players VS DM game, it could be you and the players vs the tomb(you might need to make it MORE lethal... probably not but you never know.
I have yet to run the module (but I will be at some point). I think I will run it as written, because my players have handled character death a number of times in campaigns and I know what they don't like about it, and what they do like about it.. all they really want is a memorable demise for their character, in fact, it's almost like a character needs to have a grim end for them to really catapult to legendary status in the annals of our gaming history. That being said, characters are professional risk takers, they know more about deadly danger than any of us, real-world players, do, and so I will occasionally say "Your character gets a roll for Intelligence or Wisdom here, because they may have seen something like this before".
I used to have around 50 of the AD&D modules (S!1 included), but they all wound up being a weak handshake to the actual role playing we did after we got tired of the whole 'module' idea. Now we prefer to act out who are characters are and the multiple GMs in our group who take turns running stuff will tailor the story to fit the characters. Modules don't do that. Modules can't so that, at least not without rewrites. 'nuff said.
From what I understand, the intent of the Original Tomb of Horrors was designed to challenge and punish Power gamers who had a shit ton of magic items to support them. I think it was something like AD&D lvl 15-20 characters with a hoard of minions/followers to help. From what I understand, thats why Gary wrote the module the way it is.. Did they rescale the the module for 5e? I wonder if thats part of why they haven't died yet.
I was the dm for this module in 1982-1984 on super bowl Sunday. I am enjoying the video. I instinctively saved my group several times specifically a saving throw miss on the lava ramp that would have finished the group. They were clever and we were just a bunch of kids playing a game. Super bowl Sunday today, thus I revisit the tomb. By the way if you have not read ready player one, you must.
The way you described the Tomb, how everyone is scared of it, means that it makes perfect sense for the party to be cautious. It would have been kinda ridiculous for the party to kick in the door like a SWAT team and barrel through
the first tomb of horrors was run at conventions. it was competitive and player had a time limit. this meant players had to take risks. They also went in with multiple characters.
I think they should stop remaking the old modules, come up with some new ones. If they want to play the old modules then convert it to 5e but dont change it
I feel like you're very rigjt to have doubts when DMing this module. I did when i first did it. And i feel you were right to preface the difficulty of the module beforehand. When i did it thats what my players appreciated the most. They wanted that challenge and to know it was there. I feel by telling them the risk, i feel thats fair. I do think this could be a nightmare with a DM that doesn't care if they players know and is the type of DM to revel in TPKs TLDR I think youve got the right idea telling your players about the challenge ahead of time. I think a winning combo for a challenging game of D&D is a fair DM with an unfair dungeon.
i absolutely love it when my players prepare stuff beforehand and play cautiously, and often drop maybe more hints than i really should because i want my players to feel accomplished when something they prepared fires off and works out well. so i don't really think you messed up at all telling them beforehand that it's a difficult module that would probably result in them dying if they weren't cautious, because from a player's standpoint, having your caution and preparation pay off feels really good. it's not like you gave them the answers to just breeze through it, all you told them was "hey, be careful". Gygax himself said the tomb of horrors is "the thinking player's dungeon". also, as far as the final battle is concerned, if it turns out to be WAY too difficult and they end up not having fun with it, you can always give them some way to escape when things get too hairy. or you can stick something in the environment that will weaken the boss to make them incapacitated so the players can get away.
Jorphdan, You have now entered into the world that ALL dungeon masters eventually find themselves in. The quandary where "you care for your players" vs "the intent of the module". The trick a lot of us try to put over on ourselves is that there has to be a right answer for the question you have just asked. Sometimes this is not the case, it is different for each DM and similarly the same with each player. So, now that we have this in front of us, you have a few options, none of which are easy. I could see your wheels spinning as you were explaining your problem, trying to find this solution you found yourself in. -One solution is trust in your players, if they die, they die, and hope they are ok with it, resolving your fear for the inevitable. -Two, you can let up on the battle(s) and see how they respond to the win.(Shrugging my shoulders) -Third, show them what a really nasty creature can do to a party and prepare them for other campaigns down the road. This may be a letdown, but I do not have a good answer for you. This may "take the wind our of your sails" a bit but I turn back to what I said earlier, trust in your skill, and trust in your players. Good luck and have fun trying to kill them.
Back in the day when tomb of Horrors first came out we quickly dubs the phrase Killer Dungeon Master. And other phrases like campaign of pain. No matter how you slice the pie it's a handful and no matter how it sucks is out you're going to look what bad one way or the other. If you have a party of veteran players think they can take anything the DM throws at them, this is the modules that throws down the gauntlet. And they think it's going to be a breeze, oh Gods... Nope now they think you're suddenly out to get the party. Drunk on Power is what they say about you after this is all over. KillerDm is what they'll say. He's trying to kill the whole party with this business. It wasn't you at all of course you did put the trap here. you didn't make the thief roll shity. You did not make them turn left they should have gone right. None of this is your fault. Oh no wait don't go... in that room. Shit!! They're going in that room... that module doesn't leave you with a lot of options. As a dungeon master I want my players to have fun and enjoy the adventure. But you can't ease up on the group at this point... Of course you can, but will the players pick up on the sudden Stroke Of Fortune? So at what cost?... You will likely get away with some coddling. Now you own self-respect is on the line. So what's it going to be? Them or you? Just, just ahh.. let things play out right..? That's all you got a do, lek the dice fall. Let the dice decide, these guys know what they're doing. And then that ever faithful. 1 critical failure damn!!! and you die. You're such an ass hole of a DM...! What what did I do? You're going to get blame, no mattr what happens and sadly there's not a lot you can do to help. So get resign, to be the asshole dungeon master. You did encouraged the playing group to take on the Tomb of Horrors. Come on guys, I remember saying, it will be fun. So yeah, it's a really great, Maybe more like goodish with an emphasis on the ish module, it's so so so much fun... 😥 Nope shaking my head, nope nope nope nope nope nope..... just leave me alone and go away😖
Yeah, the original module was a hurt locker for a player group, especially if they went in thinking they were going to bulldoze through it. There's a 2nd Edition version, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, where it gets turned into a full blown campaign with the "oh crap" factor turned up to 11.
The original module was meant to be played in a convention tournament session, which imparted a time constraint. The time constraint would act in opposition to an abundance of caution. With that time pressure, they may've been less cautious and taken more risks.
I probably wouldn't have allowed each of them to gather this soul magical item, probably just one for the group. Maybe you could solve it by the further they go in, acereraks phylactery fights their soul gem? But you have great players. They're cautious, they are not cocky. You're doing a great job
Sounds like you did the right thing every step of the way. I love the idea of the soul bracelets. It allows you to make things even harder to challenge them.
Tomb of horrors is a thinking mans dungeon. Most of the instant kills in ToH can be avoided by thinking before you act and being careful about how you proceed. And Rpgs aren’t about being fair and balanced. This mentality is brought on by a society where everyone gets a trophy. Old school gaming was anything but fair and balanced and the hobby thrived even through the satanic panic.
I went through this for the first time back in 93 or 94, the DM ran it mostly as written in 2e. The exception being that in 1e and 2e the only weapons that affected the demi much were plus 5 and then unless it was a holy sword it only did 1 damage. So he gave us (or my specialty priest of Cyric) a special purpose longsword that could do damage to him. Aside from that, we started with 6 or 7 players at 9th level and ended with 1 player. While 3 of us made it to the final fight. Yeah a lot of us died, and I was the only survivor, but we all loved it. Yeah there were a few resurrections after, and some ppl just made new characters. We had no clue what we were going into at the time. It's still to this day one of our favorite adventures. It created memories. And that's what is really important.
I just watched part 1 and thought I'd throw in my 2 coppers before watching part 2. I DMed a classic AD&D campaign that lasted about 8 years and ending with the grand finale "The Return to the Tomb of Horrors." It was the 2nd edition boxed set of the game that was a campaign in itself and went on for months. My players were all very experienced having played since the early 80s and everyone knew the reputation of the original module, but not this update which I ran around 2008. My group ran with 6 players and myself and there was an even mix of character classes and character races with magic items acquired and created along the course of the years we played. Basically they were going to be using characters that they were really attached to and not something created just for the tomb. First off the 1st edition version of this module was deadly and can easily result in TPKs if players aren't on their toes. The 2nd edition version included the original module along with lots of new material that ends in the Negative Material Plane where Acerack himself hangs out in his Fortress of Conclusion. This one by far could be even deadlier and my players lost some characters in it. I believe since this module has the reputation it does there should be no punches pulled or "get out of death free" magic items handed out. The 5th edition version of the demi-lich is slightly nerfed. The soul drain effect in 1st edition didn't allow for a save unlike the 5th ed. However, if played as I believe, it should be very deadly encounter. The party should take a beating with a few casualties before they take Acerack out. If not then the lich wasn't played as a 20 INT 18 Challenge rating monster.
Hey, Jorphdan, I've not yet run ToH (though I hope to), but I've given it a lot of thought and I have an idea for the ending with Acererak that allows for character death but also gives them a way to "win". Consider giving them a winning condition that doesn't require _killing_ Acererak. Perhaps Acererak is working on what will become part of his contraption for the Atropal in ToA. and by destroying that macguffin they can set back his plans. Perhaps instead of killing him there is a way to banish him from the tomb for some period of time giving relieve to the people in the area, and allowing for the plundering of the tomb. To accomplish this, have some mechanism is the last encounter that can be triggered to banish or teleport him away. If a PC dies during this climactic battle, the necromantic forces at work bring them back as a ghost (use actual ghost stats) for a limited number of rounds. Perhaps in this ghost form they can either help by hindering Acererak while the living work to banish him, or vice versa. When the battle is done, those who died can never be raised because their souls become the first victims of the soul monger. This is the penalty for death. They still get to help "defeat" Acererak, but then they don't get to come back for future adventures with this group.
There was an adventure arc in 2nd edition that was called the Secret of the Slavelords . It was based on a series of modules for 1st edition , a series designed for tournament play. In those modules at one point the players are captured , devested of all their magic items , and equipment left with nothing in which to fight their captors. I have fonder memory of my character killing one of his captors with a sling made from his loin cloth than I did with numerous other victories done with his magic sword that was taken away. The point is that there is value and enjoyment in a game where the stakes are high , the consequences less certain and sweet victory is achieved through greater adversity. It just a matter of perspective.
If your players are still alive this far into the Tomb, then you accurately sold them on the adventure, so they are being cautious. This is good. Very good. Luck is good, too. Your group (so far, haven't watched Part 2 yet) is playing well and having fun, and that is largely due to you. Well done, Jorphdan. - MINOR SPOILER FOR TOMB - FWIW, I ran the Tomb in 3.5e (my own conversion, using the published 3.5 maps, because they look better), and my players were cautious and smart, because I warned them just as you did. Nobody died until the demilich. And the survivors NOPED the hell out of there and never looked back. My players know death is a very real possibility in my games. They know I am on their side, but I am not afraid to let them die. Without that risk, the rewards lack weight. If they die to Acererak, they die in glory. Multitudes have died at his hand. There is no shame in it. Now I'm going to watch Part 2. ;)
Your party seems VERY lucky to not have died yet, but maybe not. When Gygax wrote the adventure, he claims it is a thinking man's Dungeon. In other words, if they are cautious they should survive.
I've run it twice, running it again a third time now as part of the Return To The Tomb of Horrors. It was designed for 1st edition, thus the power creep in subsequent editions has made it less deadly. I absolutely agree in having the players get a feel for the difficulty they are facing. I disagree with giving the players extra lives. If you're giving players crutches, then they are deprived of the full accomplishment of finishing a legendary module THEY wanted to be run through. I use npcs extensively as a mouthpiece to give the party information that lessens deadly surprises. An intelligent weapon with knowledge arcana and knowledge history is a good tool. The end is tough, it's likely one of the party will die if you target the party members appropriately. The longer the end drags out, the more likely this will happen.
You're basically a Mommy-Master but that's all right :) I've played ToH with a tough DM and despite of deaths, I freaking enjoyed it a LOT. It's one of my all time favourites. The scare, the caution, the fear is part of the enjoyment. That's precisely why Dark Souls is such a loved and popular videogame despite being extremely tough and ruthless: it just makes you a better player.
Trust your players, if your players are experienced enough, at LV 11th a well built ded character has fair tools to fight, they might surprise you... In addition, you can play the lich in a slightly less deadly way during the first couple of rounds (ex: you can use the 1st round of the lich to cast a made-up-spell that negates the soul protecting item you gave them) , so that the party has the time to become aware of what they are fighting (and they also have the time to cast some spells of protection).
Acererak could divulge that the soul bracelets were crafted by a cultist loyal to him, then during the final battle Acererak could begin concentrating on a spell to draw their souls out of the bracelets/ attempt to control those who wear the bracelets /give an obvious boon to Acererak. This could be a fun twist and give the players reason to remove the bracelets (only on a successful saving throw), thereby upping the tension as their safety net is removed and allowing the first few rounds of combat to include less deadly spells being cast by the litch.
I played this in the 80's and still have flash backs at times to the 'Tomb'. It is one of the greatest games that TSR put out back then and one of the best times I had with my friends back then. All I'm going to say is river of blood surfing.
ToH is written as a super-challenge dungeon. What the module doesn't make clear, is that Spells [and advanced planning] WILL by-pass most the the challenges. Consider a wizard who uses several summoning spells to "test" all the bad doors, and traps - both magical and normal. Patient players can spend days, if not WEEKS in the dungeon; casting Augury, detect traps, Find the Path, knock, etc. and various protective spells - and information gathering spells, all are crucial in choosing proper ways / activities. Another "tomb buster", somewhat not anticipated is a potion of gaseous form. Or the cloak of Etherealness [but note, entering the astral plane causes several demons to arrive, soon...].
Them knowing they should be cautious is okay, especially because this tomb is riddled with obstacles that can kill them so easily. Giving them that advice though should be the one handicap you give them rather than also allowing them to by those bracelets. If you don't warn them about the difficulty but allow them to buy the bracelets that could work to because it gives them the chance to figure out that this is an immensely difficult adventure on their own without exactly spoon feeding them that information. The way you ran it is okay and it's great that your players had fun so ultimately it's up to you to decide whether you want to make adjustments or run it the same way again, whichever way the players will enjoy more.
I haven't read the 5th edition tomb of horror's, but in the original when you reach Acererach's room, so long as they don't attack the body and just gather the treasure they can win without fighting a lich. Also a big reason nobody died so far is probably because each new version of the tomb of horrors seems to get her feed and becomes easier to survive.
I have been a DM for a long time (20 + years) and I usually start my players at level one. I am a neutral DM, meaning that I am as realistic as I can get within a fantastic game setting. I run the Forgotten Realms and I still use some of the old 3.5 rules (multiclass penalties for 3 mixes or higher, xp cost for magical item creations, so forth) mixed with the Pathfinder system which i love more than the 5.0 system. I also have house rules that I go by such as: armor points (5hp per AC value, a hit that does damage = 1 point loss in armor no matter what the damage did; acid would do full damage as well as possibly fire as an example rule); Either way I think you are on the right track, the best games are the ones where the players have skin in the game and might have real chance of their characters dying. Of course I usually have them warned, like: "Those are the troll hills, there be trolls spotted there at night or day many do not trod there unless you know the path." They might be first level characters but if they go there I will roll randomly for trolls as encounters. If there is an encounter with a troll or a group of trolls the party members need to run. If they don't, well, they get what's coming to their stupid characters for going there in the first place and being so inexperienced. Maybe they should have hired that ranger in the tavern who would have lead them safely through those mountains. Maybe the ranger him or herself would tell them that they are crazy to even try. This will enforce the idea that not everyone is an adventurer. The lower the level they start at and the longer they play the more they take their characters life seriously (they invested so much in them already) and as long as you are neutral the more excitement you bring because you are true to the game and they know anything can happen (like watching Game of Thrones,Walking Dead). They will ready themselves more and really care more. Also from your descriptions, I would keep my cards closer to my hand and don't outright tell them things. Sometimes use other adventuring corpses as an example to tell the story as well as providing the story plot if they can figure it out. As far as magical items is concerned, I personally don't sell them like candy. Magical items are actually uncommon to rare even in high fantasy. They are not extremely rare but people who sell them in bazaars are usually selling fake or superstitious wares that don't really work. Maybe one might have an actual magical potion. Remember that mages put time, money, rare components, external and internal energy into each item they craft. Also they must have a certain level of experience to be able to raise that much energy to give into the item itself (at least that's how I explain it). In the old 2nd edition games monster manual mages were a rare category class. So magical items could be found in specialized shops under protected glass somewhere in the back. That wand would sell for thousands of silver and even the shop owner might not know how to use it exactly. Maybe it's cursed and not for sale just for show. Usually only those who have a lot of coin and are eccentric look for such items (eccentric nobles or other weird and mysterious mages, other people would be too scared to even try). Even a first level wand of magic missiles runs almost 700 or more in silver. That's more than a life's wage for a commoner and several years for a soldier. When I describe magic in this way, it makes player mages feel special, which they are. If done wrong, magic items will become common, unspectacular and a crutch that can lead to number crunching math mechanics turning the game into a video game mod instead a story and kills immersion. "My character has a +2 longsword of ass kicking which gives him a +5 to attack when hitting a target with the flat of the blade towards their backside" I mean it gets ridiculous. But I follow the rules and role for random treasure and keep things balanced. But sometimes there will always be the anomaly. That invisible thing they keep nudging on the floor that smells but they can't see. Well that was a dead adventurer wearing a ring of invisibility (example). Have fun.
It seems like you’ve held their hand a little. This module was originally designed for the players who have been through it all, and to provide them with a challenge. In all other cases I’d say yeah make things fair and balanced; that is fun. However that’s not what this module is about, it should feel oppressive and uphill and unfair battle.
As a expert DM i would advice players NOT to take their favourite characters as there is a very high chance of them dying,its a unfair module to run to be honest but very good fun for the DM :}
I think a module like this is meant for players who want to face a hard challenge with humor and share funny stories of their fratfalls. It's really easy for a module like this to feel like an insult, waste of time, or an unfair destruction of characters they have invested time into. But in a version of DnD where fighting a pile of giant rats might bring a beholder to investigate, players might be used to that kind of thing and accept this challenge. Players used to composed adventure paths in worlds with regular relationships with factions or societies would not see this adventure as a fun challenge. This is vintage 1e where an easy room might give way to a killer room through the next door. The later editions trimmed off the peaks and valleys a bit so that the game is more a simple break from reality instead of something so intensely episodic. Make sure you set your players' expectations before going into this.
So I have dm d for 15 years. I also have played the OG tomb of horrors and won it. It was amazing because I had to be meticulous and prepared for every room. I also got lucky. However tomb of horrors is a moduel where if you die, you are meant to die. Multiple people with your setting is hilarious and awesome, but lives is a no. That goes against the intent of the moduel. It is kind of like saying, "I want the student to do well on a test, so I am going to give them 3 chances in a row after they are told each time what they did wrong." Kind of messed up, and the lives cause this issue. Prepping your players to be cautious though is good. It is good to tell your players beforehand about a potentially screwed up situation. The end fight... if it is possible for your party to win, keep it. If it is impossible, then add a way to win. Hard option but one way. Check the conditions. Do they need a paladin a d don't have one? Add something. Give a chance, but that is all. Your players seem to be suprisingly competent, So just make sure that there is a small chance.
Oh forgot to add that yes I won tomb of horrors. I played an entire party by myself (1 dm 1 player) and won with 1 death. The dm did exactly what I told you, and it was a fun amazing fight.
you can play the game however you want... i though have played that module several times, and each time i play it as a death trap. i've never had a group complete it. survive yes, complete, never.
I've always thought that ToH lends itself to a death-rebirth cycle. Some ultra-powerful wizard bids the adventurers to plunder the Tomb. He grants them a special power where they are reborn automatically each time they die. The dungeon's can be impossibly hard, but its trials become almost funny as the PCs are constantly destroyed and reborn at the beginning. Maybe add a complication that they each time they die Acererak grows stronger...
I did back in the 90s for AD&D 2ed. One of the players was not happy that his knight did not fare too well. I'd seen him rage quit games on the NES, but never at a game.
Sounds like you did an great job Dming it, try not to overthink this one Jorphdan, I always believed that Gary designed it to reward cautious and clever players, not all adventures can be resolved by the swinging of a sword or a few well placed fireballs, love the channel and all of your videos, Have a safe and happy new year, looking forward for much more from you in 2018
Fun is the point of role-playing if winning is how your players have fun then the question is what is winning? Do they merely want a victory or do they they want loot? But maybe it's the story's of highjinx and not "winning" at all. Knowing your players is important
Hey dude all I got to say is go with it. It is a difficult fight I'm not gonna lie. I was in a party that just beat it (it was also a party of 5) But dude as long as your party has fun and it's a challenge. You did your job. I really don't care much for the grind house campaigns and when I dm I try to give my party a challenge and make it a difficult situation, but I always make it to where they can over come it. It's just my dming style but I like to tell a story and to me having a story where the hero's face death multiple times but find a way thru or find a way to bring there friends back sounds a lot more satisfying than every road side encounter being something they barely scrapped by and the party is full of people who didn't even start out with the group. As far as tomb goes it's meant to be difficult yeah but they give you the books as a guide to the campaign but you don't have to follow along exactly you can make it your own story still. Advice the guy who taught me how to dm gave me along time ago sticks out to me right now and that's "If you aren't having fun as a dm, then there is no point in running the game. So run your game the way you and your party both enjoy."
Having played this in 2nd and every other edition, I can safely say that it is hard if you are not experienced and careful. If you have played several Ravenloft campaigns then you are prepared for such kinds of adventures
It of course depends on the players, but most people I've played with have enjoyed the over the top you're just going to die at the end of ToH (also sort of the end of ToA). Acererak is a powerful dude, he put this tomb here to mess with people, you made it through, now he's going to obliterate you. You the player are not the most powerful people out there, and when you mess with the people who are, you're going to get slapped down. That IS fair. "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life" - Captain Picard
If you are interested, I am nearly finished...two more rooms to go...in building Tomb of Horrors in Minecraft. Once I am finished, I will make the world available for free to anyone interested. Of course, there are differences, because of the limitations of the Minecraft engine. For instance, in ToH, the walls are covered in hieroglyphics and without mods you cannot do that so I replaced them with paintings. Also, some traps work differently than described in ToH, but are in my opinion, are as equivalent as possible. Leave a reply to my comment and I will do what i can to make it available. If anyone knows of a place that I can save the world for everyone, please share that.
Really interesting thoughts there. Stuff like that worries me to no end when I GM a campaign or adventure. I think, in the end it always comes down to communication. As you said, you prepared them for this kind of adventure, over-prepared them even. Now I don't know your players, but I assume they did listen to what you were telling them. Meaning, even if the end fight might feel cheap at first, they'll probably quickly see that this was exactly what you were preparing them for.
I'm running Tomb of Horrors this week. I haven't given all this free stuff and free clerical casts: However....One Prince, five squires, and five pirates are with them. They are level 6, not level 11. I expect all the 'hirelings' will meet their end, bringing the party alone by the 11th room. And here we go. I can't run Acerak at level 6, so I'll have to punch that down. My players are noobies...my expectation is a Cleric and Warlock: Celestial will be working overtime keeping them alive or reincarnated.
Aside Yawning Portal ToH being easier than the original, ToH per se was thought as a tournment dungeon where the dm was supposed to try to kill the players. Maybe you did overprepared them. But the important thing is that they had fun.
I know you’re done and all, but the thing about DMing is that you are in control. I know you know this, but if you feel an encounter isn’t going the way you would like it to, change it. Fudge a dice roll, introduce a new complication for either your players or their enemy, etc. You can tweak this stuff ahead of time too, obviously. If the lich is hitting your party too hard and they are groaning and moaning just don’t hit them as hard. The trap they triggered? It malfunctioned and just snapped apart or isn’t operating correctly, no harm done. With the freedom a DM has its difficult to blame the module. However, don’t underestimate your players either. I can’t tell you how many times I thought “there’s no way they are going to be able to clear this” and they proceed to steam roll the encounter and are left wondering what the fuss was about. Bottom line, do what you can, even on the fly, and things will be fine.
What you're saying is true, and normally I do change stuff a bit to either balance it or make it feel more "fair" on the fly. However I felt the point of Tomb of Horrors was to defeat your players, to kill them. The module is more adversarial between DM and Player. This was why I had a difficult time with it, I wanted to honor the module without my players feeling cheated.
the horrible thing about the first and second edition version of TOH is there is really no way of killing the lich at the end unless you get really, really,lucky,killer module indeed!
Use a high DEX wizard, casting [2nd lvl] "forget" spell, while a sufficiently high paladin / ranger [hasted] attacks with a +4/+5 quality sword; Properly timed, the skull sinks to resting spot; repeat several-several times. 4 attacks/round means 10-15 damage (minimum). At ~ 60 hit points [ or 6 rounds of combat ] the skull will shatter to dust, "apparently" destroyed. Finish it off with gobs of holy water, and a Wish [1], and the demi-lich is toast.
I'm about to run it, and I see that a lot of the 1e traps are different from the 5e traps. 5th edition isn't nearly as deadly, and first edition often doesn't give saving throws for some of the traps. would recommend to running 5e to keep the original next to you, so if someone does fall into a trap look at what the original said. example (spoiler) for the first spiked pit trap, in the first edition you would take damage and make a save against poison. If you failed your dead, that's it. 5e, you just take damage equal to about half your health on average. I would give the spike damage, do the save vs poison 5e DC fail=death. I think it's important to keep the spirit of the original game in mind when running this.
You can definitely tell you're a new school DM. Also the 5E conversion of ToH is watered down from the original as far lethality. Also....you don't always win in life....D&D is the same way, unbalanced encounters are essential. It's not always about hacking and slashing your way to victory.
I thought by this time, DMs and PCs alike would know what the Tomb contain and what it’s about given its reputation. Running this module as written will require a disclaimer beforehand and as a one off with disposable one shot characters.
Thank you for this frankness. All these fears and weird balancing issue is the reason I've been cautious of it. :S Take it easy, fellow. This level of unknown is so ripe for unforeseen awesome. Hope.
I think it's good to dive in. If I never took a chance I would have never started DM'ing in the first place. Don't get me wrong I'm having a good time with ToH it's just a different beast to go through :) I hope you get to run it or play in it sometime!
Hey Jorphdan, any thoughts on running the Tomb of Horrors with a higher level party? Is it possible to adapt the traps and puzzles to still be interesting for level 15-17 characters?
Magic can do so much for you at higher levels. So perhaps adding some more antimagic fields at certain traps would level the playing field. And upping the DC to find magic doors and traps. Right now at level 11 the Rogue (thanks to an ability they get) can't roll below a 21 to find traps and every DC has been around 15-20.
Nice thanks! I'm not quite sure when I will put it in but I really think the Tomb of Horrors would be a blast with my group and your comments here kinda confirm that, especially the part about consequences being a big part of this module. Thanks for sharing ;)
The Tomb of Horrors Draw sword and wand and follow the guide, Bring courage if the youth be strong in bloom; The skull grins upon the mountain side, Acererak is in his tomb. Pull down the walls, bring sword and light That there be no foot silent in the room Nor mouth from screaming , nor from blood unspent; Acererak is in his tomb. In vain, in vain; the grinning skull still cries The everlasting taper lights the gloom; All wisdom shut into his jeweled eyes Acererak sleeps in his tomb. -James Gerald Koch -
Change up the traps little leave it where they disable all the traps the tomb collapses or a secondary trap when they deactivate all the traps you can't let them run through the full tomb without at least one of them dying
So I don't know the module as I haven't look through it or played in it yet but I did watch the force Grey season 2 that Matthew Mercer Rin for all the voice actor friends. It seemed to me that he gave them and Escape and that made it okay. There was a portal in the room where they fight the Lich that allowed them to leave if they can make it to it. So that became part of the fight is how do we get everyone out. Not sure if that is in there or if that's something they came up with
Jorphdan it would give them a chance to have a chance. If that makes sense. I don't think having an unwinnable fight is a bad thing in D&D but having a unwinnable fight without either prep that it's coming or a chance of Escape would be bad. For instance if I knew I was going to face the biggest baddest glitch around then I would understand what I was getting myself into. But if I don't think he is going to show up then I would at least want a way to get out of there when he does
ToH rules. There has to be a few insane, extreme examples of any art form. This is brutal death metal. It's supposed to sound like that, it's doing its job and achieving its objectives, it's not for everyone, other things are not supposed to be like it, and it's not supposed to be like other things.
we just started it, and i think im being a bit heavy handed with telling them to make perception checks in places where theyd normally not ask. i started my players at 12 because theres only 3 and they have no healer
To run it the correct way, you have to describe what the players see and they have to make questions if they want more details, no rolls needed. Perception checks kinda ruin the point of it being a thinking-player's scenario. This dungeon shouldn't be the first old school dungeon crawl of any group, as it either ends up being a complete massacre or too hand-holdy that just defeats the purpose.
My one and only time running ToH I was obliterated in the first hallway. How was my dumb warrior supposed to know the black orb was a sphere of annihilation?
I let intend to let them play two characters each and send 8 into the dungeon as some sort of raid team, no magic items, expecting at least one of their characters to die. That way they can see some of the gruesome deaths and keep going.
They're fighting Acererak himself, I don't think that expecting to lose against this legendary demi-lich is unreasonable. I think it's far more unreasonable to go into a module such as this and expect to win the final battle. I can understand that losing at the end can be somewhat unsatisfactory but I honestly don't think that it's a bad conclusion to the module. And on top of that I think that, even though your PCs haven't died in this hard module, it's not like you're spoiling them and making it particularly easy for them. They were warned that it's a very difficult module and they're dealing well with it so I think that they're not going to be particularly bitter or salty about losing to Acererak.
1e is much more difficult and deadly compare to 5e. In 5e it is too easy to heal all the time, really don’t die but mostly leaves you naked and penniless (which can be funny at times). PCs really have to try really really hard to die in 5e, to make it work, spell restrictions could be an option, if the pc use an spell slot to cast a spell they can no longer use it until a long rest.
I feel like they may not find the fight fair but they would as Matt Colville says, "Believe" in the fight. They are immersed in its unfairness because this is the ancient tomb of a DemiLich. They are trespassing. D&D isnt a videogame, its a living breathing world too. If you kick down someones front door whose a KNOWN powerful wizard, then expect to be barbecued. I think your players will find it funny that they got through his entire dungeon and then get flattened by him. This is a comedy module, so play up how exasperated the Lich is for having to reset all of his traps and use a mop to clean up the 10th set of adventurers today, complaining about stupid kids. 😂
For players that like to think: Tomb of Horrors is the hard challenge. For players that like to just roll dice, that award goes to Doomvault. Fuck Doomvault.
You need to completely split the group up for 1 and to you need to incapacitate any Rogues or bards and make spellcasters burn through their spells per day you should be able to accomplish this if you split them up use a trap or something that divides the group some way of making them go off on their own
Absurdly difficult fights are the best last week I had one of the most fun fights in my life where I 1v1 an owl bear and won as a level 3 barbarian/rouge
I have oversold a the death rate. It is part learning the craft of DMing. I find getting the pulse of the players can be more relevant. Than asking people here on your channel. Just my opinion.
Fair and balanced unfortunately have no place in ToH, it's legit to say; oh yeah we were ultra cautious and slinked through the dungeon almost carefree, only to get TPKed by the lich because we weren't high enough lvl!
I mean.... The Tomb was meant for the DM to have fun, not the players. The entire dungeon was made to take down Gygax's arrogant players a notch and show them that even the mightiest warrior can be slain like a dog and the strongest wizard and be slaughtered like a mere mortal.
You need to know your players. If your players like to explore, then it's fine for them to survive. If they want a challenge because the players are very achievement oriented, there should be guides for how hard things will be for your players at each level. The difficulty should be JUST above their typical skill level so that they have to get in the flow of things to succeed. Taking damage and dying will give the player feedback for their next try.
i think the original intention of the module was to fuck with and kill as many players as you could because gary gygax made it for a small wargame convention where players would come with 20-30 characters because of how brutal the dm's had to make their small adventures and to fuck with the players that could slap through dungeons and not care about the dungeon itself
*on the next DM thoughts*: "So my players crushed the lich in 5 turns. I'm feel I my have aided my players too much and the fight may have been anti-climactic, but my players had an awesome time steamrolling something I told them was really hard."
1: Its just a game, man 2: Where is no way to run a module wrong, you can do whatever you want with it 3: A challenging adventure is fun 4: You can run this module with different players and see for yourself what you like better 5: I think you overly prepared them, they know the tomb is deadly and when they die its just part of the game 6: Your players are no children, if they cant handle defeat then its their problem 7: In my opinion you overthinking this, which keeps you from having fun as a DM
I feel you man, i´ve been through these problems too and I learned that you can do your best but life is random, therefore sometimes you succeed and sometimes not although you did the exact same thing. So just enjoy yourself
You're not wrong except that if his player can't handle defeat, it does become his problem, because now he has to find new players if he doesn't feel he has enough. He only ran this because his wife left her spot open. Sometimes you have to capitulate to another player IF you value that relationship more then DND.
I'd just keep on keeping on. CRs aren't very reliable in 5e and, as you illustrated with the part of your video where you talked about worrying the dungeon hadn't been deadly enough for them, you should never underestimate your players.
This is coming from an old school DM from way back in the early 1980's. You aren't looking at this module the right way. I've run the original "Tomb of Horrors" MANY times. It's a great deal of fun to run for both DM AND players. Here's the catch. This module is NOT balanced. D&D was NOT balanced back in the day. Balance wasn't even a word we uttered. We rolled with the punches and had fun with the imbalance. Now with a crazy module like Tomb of Horrors, it's made to kill characters. And it's usually a meat grinder. This is a tournament module. It was designed for tournaments. Play it like one. It comes with a long list of pre-gen characters in the back. Prepare them before-hand. keep them in a stack. Hand them out before play. When a death happens, hand out the next one. This isn't a dungeon to have your players run with their favorite characters that they're attached to. This is more a "fun-one-off". Have fun with it. Have fun with the goofy situations. Have fun with the deaths. Here's the other thing with this module. This isn't your typical module. HAVE FUN WITH THE DEATHS!!! Don't try to lead the characters into their deaths cackling as you do it. Don't smirk as they die. However, KILL THE BASTARDS. It's not you killing them. It's the damn dungeon and their own stupidity and their own dumb luck. This is the mantra of the game "Paranoia" as well. Players embrace character deaths in that game and often initiate their own deaths to cackles of glee from everyone around the table as their cause chain reaction deaths to occur. So don't be afraid of player killing or players not having fun in this module. This module is different than your typical dungeon module. It's NOT a campaign style module, or something that you fit into a long story, or something you use to advance long running characters or use characters that players are attached to. It's also NOT a module for people who prefer role playing and, once again, getting attached to their characters. This is.. send pre-generated characters in.. some die.. send in more pre-generated characters.. until some players succeed. And it can be a LOT of fun.
Absolutely THIS. Tomb of Horrors was designed when D&D wasn't even called a "roleplaying game" yet. Players didn't get so attached with their characters (which barely had any personality, I mean the characters not the players, haha).
This is from a time when character death could be seen as fun. Tomb of Horrors tests the perception (and paranoia) of the players, more than the characters. Characters are supposed to be disposable.
It remind me of some retro-clone (can't remember the name) where each player starts with like 3-4 level 0 characters, and they begin to die en masse... and the character that DOES SURVIVE the initial dungeon becomes the definitive adventurer at level 1.
@@Arvaniz One thing that I've always wanted to do was adapt "The Tomb of Horrors" to be used in the game "Paranoia". It would fit that game so well. Imagine the computer sending the troubleshooters to this newly dug out section of Alpha Complex that no one knew was there... TMB sector or something like that. Or maybe it's some complex that was put together by some long, forgotten secret society, and there's something really important in there.
Warning! This module is so hard that I’m the first hour of the tomb of horrors I lost my left hand reaching into a giant mouth. And I’m the DM!
Gary's "Intention" was killing the Players of Tenser and Kavaros, the immortal players of his group loaded with powerful items.
The Yawning Portal ToH is WAY easier than the original ToH.
They had to tone down for the new players, most new players can't handle their characters dying.
The tomb of horrors is supposed to be hard. Bumping the player level and giving them extra lives goes against the design of the module. If you don't want your players to die then that's fine, but you are un-doing the difficulty level. Also, your players should be aware of the difficulties associated with the module and accept that they probably will die. That's the whole allure of the tomb. But most importantly: if they're having fun then you did good. Don't beat yourself up over it if they enjoyed it lol
Going to second this^^..... This module was designed with the sole intent of being a glorified kill room. This was Gary Gygax's middle finger to characters he thought had become too overconfident in their ability to overcome anything. It was originally presented as a speed run at conventions and players were bringing loads of characters to the party for the specific reason that they knew going into it that the DM was trying to be a murderous bastard. So the players always knew what they were getting themselves into prior to attempting the module, and character death was almost a given. That said, and knowing that history (which is pretty well known in the D&D community), it sounds like you may have gone too soft on your players, or it simply just wasn't the appropriate campaign for your group.
As Brian Jones stated in the old days players were supposed to bring several characters so they could be replaced after one died. So they are supposed to get extra lives. This way is slightly faster, and doesn't feel as bloody, so probably wasn't the best way. Although at least their spell slots would still be used up.
Brian Jones well, it depends on the context, they have to clear the tomb fast enough so they don’t get bored, but they also need to be frustrated(but not enough so that they throw a punch or rage-quit) and it’s not fun if they don’t win in the end. And besides, if you want to have something other than a Players VS DM game, it could be you and the players vs the tomb(you might need to make it MORE lethal... probably not but you never know.
I have yet to run the module (but I will be at some point). I think I will run it as written, because my players have handled character death a number of times in campaigns and I know what they don't like about it, and what they do like about it.. all they really want is a memorable demise for their character, in fact, it's almost like a character needs to have a grim end for them to really catapult to legendary status in the annals of our gaming history. That being said, characters are professional risk takers, they know more about deadly danger than any of us, real-world players, do, and so I will occasionally say "Your character gets a roll for Intelligence or Wisdom here, because they may have seen something like this before".
Ha, sounds like our DM, except that if we as players don't remember something we don't get the roll.. XD
I used to have around 50 of the AD&D modules (S!1 included), but they all wound up being a weak handshake to the actual role playing we did after we got tired of the whole 'module' idea. Now we prefer to act out who are characters are and the multiple GMs in our group who take turns running stuff will tailor the story to fit the characters. Modules don't do that. Modules can't so that, at least not without rewrites. 'nuff said.
From what I understand, the intent of the Original Tomb of Horrors was designed to challenge and punish Power gamers who had a shit ton of magic items to support them. I think it was something like AD&D lvl 15-20 characters with a hoard of minions/followers to help. From what I understand, thats why Gary wrote the module the way it is..
Did they rescale the the module for 5e? I wonder if thats part of why they haven't died yet.
I was the dm for this module in 1982-1984 on super bowl Sunday.
I am enjoying the video.
I instinctively saved my group several times specifically a saving throw miss on the lava ramp that would have finished the group.
They were clever and we were just a bunch of kids playing a game.
Super bowl Sunday today, thus I revisit the tomb.
By the way if you have not read ready player one, you must.
The way you described the Tomb, how everyone is scared of it, means that it makes perfect sense for the party to be cautious. It would have been kinda ridiculous for the party to kick in the door like a SWAT team and barrel through
the first tomb of horrors was run at conventions. it was competitive and player had a time limit. this meant players had to take risks. They also went in with multiple characters.
I think they should stop remaking the old modules, come up with some new ones. If they want to play the old modules then convert it to 5e but dont change it
I feel like you're very rigjt to have doubts when DMing this module. I did when i first did it. And i feel you were right to preface the difficulty of the module beforehand.
When i did it thats what my players appreciated the most. They wanted that challenge and to know it was there.
I feel by telling them the risk, i feel thats fair.
I do think this could be a nightmare with a DM that doesn't care if they players know and is the type of DM to revel in TPKs
TLDR
I think youve got the right idea telling your players about the challenge ahead of time.
I think a winning combo for a challenging game of D&D is a fair DM with an unfair dungeon.
"Fair DM with an unfair dungeon." That's a really good way to put it.
i absolutely love it when my players prepare stuff beforehand and play cautiously, and often drop maybe more hints than i really should because i want my players to feel accomplished when something they prepared fires off and works out well. so i don't really think you messed up at all telling them beforehand that it's a difficult module that would probably result in them dying if they weren't cautious, because from a player's standpoint, having your caution and preparation pay off feels really good. it's not like you gave them the answers to just breeze through it, all you told them was "hey, be careful". Gygax himself said the tomb of horrors is "the thinking player's dungeon".
also, as far as the final battle is concerned, if it turns out to be WAY too difficult and they end up not having fun with it, you can always give them some way to escape when things get too hairy. or you can stick something in the environment that will weaken the boss to make them incapacitated so the players can get away.
Jorphdan, You have now entered into the world that ALL dungeon masters eventually find themselves in. The quandary where "you care for your players" vs "the intent of the module". The trick a lot of us try to put over on ourselves is that there has to be a right answer for the question you have just asked. Sometimes this is not the case, it is different for each DM and similarly the same with each player. So, now that we have this in front of us, you have a few options, none of which are easy. I could see your wheels spinning as you were explaining your problem, trying to find this solution you found yourself in.
-One solution is trust in your players, if they die, they die, and hope they are ok with it, resolving your fear for the inevitable.
-Two, you can let up on the battle(s) and see how they respond to the win.(Shrugging my shoulders)
-Third, show them what a really nasty creature can do to a party and prepare them for other campaigns down the road.
This may be a letdown, but I do not have a good answer for you. This may "take the wind our of your sails" a bit but I turn back to what I said earlier, trust in your skill, and trust in your players. Good luck and have fun trying to kill them.
Critical Masterpiece a
Back in the day when tomb of Horrors first came out we quickly dubs the phrase Killer Dungeon Master. And other phrases like campaign of pain. No matter how you slice the pie it's a handful and no matter how it sucks is out you're going to look what bad one way or the other. If you have a party of veteran players think they can take anything the DM throws at them, this is the modules that throws down the gauntlet. And they think it's going to be a breeze, oh Gods... Nope now they think you're suddenly out to get the party. Drunk on Power is what they say about you after this is all over. KillerDm is what they'll say. He's trying to kill the whole party with this business.
It wasn't you at all of course you did put the trap here. you didn't make the thief roll shity. You did not make them turn left they should have gone right. None of this is your fault. Oh no wait don't go... in that room. Shit!! They're going in that room... that module doesn't leave you with a lot of options. As a dungeon master I want my players to have fun and enjoy the adventure. But you can't ease up on the group at this point... Of course you can, but will the players pick up on the sudden Stroke Of Fortune? So at what cost?... You will likely get away with some coddling. Now you own self-respect is on the line. So what's it going to be? Them or you? Just, just ahh.. let things play out right..? That's all you got a do, lek the dice fall. Let the dice decide, these guys know what they're doing. And then that ever faithful. 1 critical failure damn!!! and you die. You're such an ass hole of a DM...! What what did I do? You're going to get blame, no mattr what happens and sadly there's not a lot you can do to help. So get resign, to be the asshole dungeon master. You did encouraged the playing group to take on the Tomb of Horrors.
Come on guys, I remember saying, it will be fun. So yeah, it's a really great, Maybe more like goodish with an emphasis on the ish module, it's so so so much fun... 😥
Nope shaking my head, nope nope nope nope nope nope..... just leave me alone and go away😖
Yeah, the original module was a hurt locker for a player group, especially if they went in thinking they were going to bulldoze through it.
There's a 2nd Edition version, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, where it gets turned into a full blown campaign with the "oh crap" factor turned up to 11.
The original module was meant to be played in a convention tournament session, which imparted a time constraint. The time constraint would act in opposition to an abundance of caution. With that time pressure, they may've been less cautious and taken more risks.
I probably wouldn't have allowed each of them to gather this soul magical item, probably just one for the group. Maybe you could solve it by the further they go in, acereraks phylactery fights their soul gem?
But you have great players. They're cautious, they are not cocky. You're doing a great job
Ya know, they are good players :) Thanks good advice and great comment!
Sounds like you did the right thing every step of the way. I love the idea of the soul bracelets. It allows you to make things even harder to challenge them.
Tomb of horrors is a thinking mans dungeon. Most of the instant kills in ToH can be avoided by thinking before you act and being careful about how you proceed. And Rpgs aren’t about being fair and balanced. This mentality is brought on by a society where everyone gets a trophy.
Old school gaming was anything but fair and balanced and the hobby thrived even through the satanic panic.
I went through this for the first time back in 93 or 94, the DM ran it mostly as written in 2e. The exception being that in 1e and 2e the only weapons that affected the demi much were plus 5 and then unless it was a holy sword it only did 1 damage. So he gave us (or my specialty priest of Cyric) a special purpose longsword that could do damage to him. Aside from that, we started with 6 or 7 players at 9th level and ended with 1 player. While 3 of us made it to the final fight. Yeah a lot of us died, and I was the only survivor, but we all loved it. Yeah there were a few resurrections after, and some ppl just made new characters. We had no clue what we were going into at the time.
It's still to this day one of our favorite adventures. It created memories. And that's what is really important.
I just watched part 1 and thought I'd throw in my 2 coppers before watching part 2.
I DMed a classic AD&D campaign that lasted about 8 years and ending with the grand finale "The Return to the Tomb of Horrors." It was the 2nd edition boxed set of the game that was a campaign in itself and went on for months. My players were all very experienced having played since the early 80s and everyone knew the reputation of the original module, but not this update which I ran around 2008. My group ran with 6 players and myself and there was an even mix of character classes and character races with magic items acquired and created along the course of the years we played. Basically they were going to be using characters that they were really attached to and not something created just for the tomb.
First off the 1st edition version of this module was deadly and can easily result in TPKs if players aren't on their toes. The 2nd edition version included the original module along with lots of new material that ends in the Negative Material Plane where Acerack himself hangs out in his Fortress of Conclusion. This one by far could be even deadlier and my players lost some characters in it.
I believe since this module has the reputation it does there should be no punches pulled or "get out of death free" magic items handed out. The 5th edition version of the demi-lich is slightly nerfed. The soul drain effect in 1st edition didn't allow for a save unlike the 5th ed. However, if played as I believe, it should be very deadly encounter. The party should take a beating with a few casualties before they take Acerack out. If not then the lich wasn't played as a 20 INT 18 Challenge rating monster.
Hey, Jorphdan, I've not yet run ToH (though I hope to), but I've given it a lot of thought and I have an idea for the ending with Acererak that allows for character death but also gives them a way to "win". Consider giving them a winning condition that doesn't require _killing_ Acererak. Perhaps Acererak is working on what will become part of his contraption for the Atropal in ToA. and by destroying that macguffin they can set back his plans. Perhaps instead of killing him there is a way to banish him from the tomb for some period of time giving relieve to the people in the area, and allowing for the plundering of the tomb. To accomplish this, have some mechanism is the last encounter that can be triggered to banish or teleport him away. If a PC dies during this climactic battle, the necromantic forces at work bring them back as a ghost (use actual ghost stats) for a limited number of rounds. Perhaps in this ghost form they can either help by hindering Acererak while the living work to banish him, or vice versa. When the battle is done, those who died can never be raised because their souls become the first victims of the soul monger. This is the penalty for death. They still get to help "defeat" Acererak, but then they don't get to come back for future adventures with this group.
There was an adventure arc in 2nd edition that was called the Secret of the Slavelords . It was based on a series of modules for 1st edition , a series designed for tournament play. In those modules at one point the players are captured , devested of all their magic items , and equipment left with nothing in which to fight their captors. I have fonder memory of my character killing one of his captors with a sling made from his loin cloth than I did with numerous other victories done with his magic sword that was taken away.
The point is that there is value and enjoyment in a game where the stakes are high , the consequences less certain and sweet victory is achieved through greater adversity. It just a matter of perspective.
If your players are still alive this far into the Tomb, then you accurately sold them on the adventure, so they are being cautious. This is good. Very good. Luck is good, too. Your group (so far, haven't watched Part 2 yet) is playing well and having fun, and that is largely due to you. Well done, Jorphdan.
- MINOR SPOILER FOR TOMB -
FWIW, I ran the Tomb in 3.5e (my own conversion, using the published 3.5 maps, because they look better), and my players were cautious and smart, because I warned them just as you did. Nobody died until the demilich. And the survivors NOPED the hell out of there and never looked back.
My players know death is a very real possibility in my games. They know I am on their side, but I am not afraid to let them die. Without that risk, the rewards lack weight. If they die to Acererak, they die in glory. Multitudes have died at his hand. There is no shame in it.
Now I'm going to watch Part 2. ;)
Your party seems VERY lucky to not have died yet, but maybe not. When Gygax wrote the adventure, he claims it is a thinking man's Dungeon. In other words, if they are cautious they should survive.
I've run it twice, running it again a third time now as part of the Return To The Tomb of Horrors.
It was designed for 1st edition, thus the power creep in subsequent editions has made it less deadly.
I absolutely agree in having the players get a feel for the difficulty they are facing. I disagree with giving the players extra lives. If you're giving players crutches, then they are deprived of the full accomplishment of finishing a legendary module THEY wanted to be run through.
I use npcs extensively as a mouthpiece to give the party information that lessens deadly surprises. An intelligent weapon with knowledge arcana and knowledge history is a good tool.
The end is tough, it's likely one of the party will die if you target the party members appropriately. The longer the end drags out, the more likely this will happen.
You're basically a Mommy-Master but that's all right :) I've played ToH with a tough DM and despite of deaths, I freaking enjoyed it a LOT. It's one of my all time favourites. The scare, the caution, the fear is part of the enjoyment. That's precisely why Dark Souls is such a loved and popular videogame despite being extremely tough and ruthless: it just makes you a better player.
Trust your players, if your players are experienced enough, at LV 11th a well built ded character has fair tools to fight, they might surprise you...
In addition, you can play the lich in a slightly less deadly way during the first couple of rounds (ex: you can use the 1st round of the lich to cast a made-up-spell that negates the soul protecting item you gave them) , so that the party has the time to become aware of what they are fighting (and they also have the time to cast some spells of protection).
Oooo that's not a bad idea at all! Thanks!
Acererak could divulge that the soul bracelets were crafted by a cultist loyal to him, then during the final battle Acererak could begin concentrating on a spell to draw their souls out of the bracelets/ attempt to control those who wear the bracelets /give an obvious boon to Acererak. This could be a fun twist and give the players reason to remove the bracelets (only on a successful saving throw), thereby upping the tension as their safety net is removed and allowing the first few rounds of combat to include less deadly spells being cast by the litch.
@Gregory Barrett that's also brilliant :)
I played this in the 80's and still have flash backs at times to the 'Tomb'. It is one of the greatest games that TSR put out back then and one of the best times I had with my friends back then. All I'm going to say is river of blood surfing.
Ultimately the question is whether or not the group enjoyed the module
ToH is written as a super-challenge dungeon. What the module doesn't make clear, is that Spells [and advanced planning] WILL by-pass most the the challenges. Consider a wizard who uses several summoning spells to "test" all the bad doors, and traps - both magical and normal. Patient players can spend days, if not WEEKS in the dungeon; casting Augury, detect traps, Find the Path, knock, etc. and various protective spells - and information gathering spells, all are crucial in choosing proper ways / activities. Another "tomb buster", somewhat not anticipated is a potion of gaseous form. Or the cloak of Etherealness [but note, entering the astral plane causes several demons to arrive, soon...].
Them knowing they should be cautious is okay, especially because this tomb is riddled with obstacles that can kill them so easily. Giving them that advice though should be the one handicap you give them rather than also allowing them to by those bracelets. If you don't warn them about the difficulty but allow them to buy the bracelets that could work to because it gives them the chance to figure out that this is an immensely difficult adventure on their own without exactly spoon feeding them that information. The way you ran it is okay and it's great that your players had fun so ultimately it's up to you to decide whether you want to make adjustments or run it the same way again, whichever way the players will enjoy more.
As long as everyone is having fun. It's all good.
I haven't read the 5th edition tomb of horror's, but in the original when you reach Acererach's room, so long as they don't attack the body and just gather the treasure they can win without fighting a lich. Also a big reason nobody died so far is probably because each new version of the tomb of horrors seems to get her feed and becomes easier to survive.
I have been a DM for a long time (20 + years) and I usually start my players at level one. I am a neutral DM, meaning that I am as realistic as I can get within a fantastic game setting. I run the Forgotten Realms and I still use some of the old 3.5 rules (multiclass penalties for 3 mixes or higher, xp cost for magical item creations, so forth) mixed with the Pathfinder system which i love more than the 5.0 system. I also have house rules that I go by such as: armor points (5hp per AC value, a hit that does damage = 1 point loss in armor no matter what the damage did; acid would do full damage as well as possibly fire as an example rule); Either way I think you are on the right track, the best games are the ones where the players have skin in the game and might have real chance of their characters dying. Of course I usually have them warned, like: "Those are the troll hills, there be trolls spotted there at night or day many do not trod there unless you know the path." They might be first level characters but if they go there I will roll randomly for trolls as encounters. If there is an encounter with a troll or a group of trolls the party members need to run. If they don't, well, they get what's coming to their stupid characters for going there in the first place and being so inexperienced. Maybe they should have hired that ranger in the tavern who would have lead them safely through those mountains. Maybe the ranger him or herself would tell them that they are crazy to even try. This will enforce the idea that not everyone is an adventurer. The lower the level they start at and the longer they play the more they take their characters life seriously (they invested so much in them already) and as long as you are neutral the more excitement you bring because you are true to the game and they know anything can happen (like watching Game of Thrones,Walking Dead). They will ready themselves more and really care more. Also from your descriptions, I would keep my cards closer to my hand and don't outright tell them things. Sometimes use other adventuring corpses as an example to tell the story as well as providing the story plot if they can figure it out. As far as magical items is concerned, I personally don't sell them like candy.
Magical items are actually uncommon to rare even in high fantasy. They are not extremely rare but people who sell them in bazaars are usually selling fake or superstitious wares that don't really work. Maybe one might have an actual magical potion. Remember that mages put time, money, rare components, external and internal energy into each item they craft. Also they must have a certain level of experience to be able to raise that much energy to give into the item itself (at least that's how I explain it). In the old 2nd edition games monster manual mages were a rare category class. So magical items could be found in specialized shops under protected glass somewhere in the back. That wand would sell for thousands of silver and even the shop owner might not know how to use it exactly. Maybe it's cursed and not for sale just for show. Usually only those who have a lot of coin and are eccentric look for such items (eccentric nobles or other weird and mysterious mages, other people would be too scared to even try). Even a first level wand of magic missiles runs almost 700 or more in silver. That's more than a life's wage for a commoner and several years for a soldier. When I describe magic in this way, it makes player mages feel special, which they are. If done wrong, magic items will become common, unspectacular and a crutch that can lead to number crunching math mechanics turning the game into a video game mod instead a story and kills immersion. "My character has a +2 longsword of ass kicking which gives him a +5 to attack when hitting a target with the flat of the blade towards their backside" I mean it gets ridiculous.
But I follow the rules and role for random treasure and keep things balanced. But sometimes there will always be the anomaly. That invisible thing they keep nudging on the floor that smells but they can't see. Well that was a dead adventurer wearing a ring of invisibility (example). Have fun.
It seems like you’ve held their hand a little. This module was originally designed for the players who have been through it all, and to provide them with a challenge. In all other cases I’d say yeah make things fair and balanced; that is fun. However that’s not what this module is about, it should feel oppressive and uphill and unfair battle.
This video makes me want to play ToH as a player - I kinda want that DM vs PC experience in a short adventure
As a expert DM i would advice players NOT to take their favourite characters as there is a very high chance of them dying,its a unfair module to run to be honest but very good fun for the DM :}
I think a module like this is meant for players who want to face a hard challenge with humor and share funny stories of their fratfalls. It's really easy for a module like this to feel like an insult, waste of time, or an unfair destruction of characters they have invested time into. But in a version of DnD where fighting a pile of giant rats might bring a beholder to investigate, players might be used to that kind of thing and accept this challenge. Players used to composed adventure paths in worlds with regular relationships with factions or societies would not see this adventure as a fun challenge. This is vintage 1e where an easy room might give way to a killer room through the next door. The later editions trimmed off the peaks and valleys a bit so that the game is more a simple break from reality instead of something so intensely episodic. Make sure you set your players' expectations before going into this.
So I have dm d for 15 years. I also have played the OG tomb of horrors and won it. It was amazing because I had to be meticulous and prepared for every room. I also got lucky. However tomb of horrors is a moduel where if you die, you are meant to die. Multiple people with your setting is hilarious and awesome, but lives is a no. That goes against the intent of the moduel. It is kind of like saying, "I want the student to do well on a test, so I am going to give them 3 chances in a row after they are told each time what they did wrong." Kind of messed up, and the lives cause this issue. Prepping your players to be cautious though is good. It is good to tell your players beforehand about a potentially screwed up situation. The end fight... if it is possible for your party to win, keep it. If it is impossible, then add a way to win. Hard option but one way. Check the conditions. Do they need a paladin a d don't have one? Add something. Give a chance, but that is all. Your players seem to be suprisingly competent, So just make sure that there is a small chance.
Oh forgot to add that yes I won tomb of horrors. I played an entire party by myself (1 dm 1 player) and won with 1 death. The dm did exactly what I told you, and it was a fun amazing fight.
you can play the game however you want... i though have played that module several times, and each time i play it as a death trap. i've never had a group complete it. survive yes, complete, never.
I've always thought that ToH lends itself to a death-rebirth cycle. Some ultra-powerful wizard bids the adventurers to plunder the Tomb. He grants them a special power where they are reborn automatically each time they die. The dungeon's can be impossibly hard, but its trials become almost funny as the PCs are constantly destroyed and reborn at the beginning. Maybe add a complication that they each time they die Acererak grows stronger...
I did back in the 90s for AD&D 2ed. One of the players was not happy that his knight did not fare too well. I'd seen him rage quit games on the NES, but never at a game.
Sounds like you did an great job Dming it, try not to overthink this one Jorphdan, I always believed that Gary designed it to reward cautious and clever players, not all adventures can be resolved by the swinging of a sword or a few well placed fireballs, love the channel and all of your videos, Have a safe and happy new year, looking forward for much more from you in 2018
Thanks!
Fun is the point of role-playing if winning is how your players have fun then the question is what is winning? Do they merely want a victory or do they they want loot? But maybe it's the story's of highjinx and not "winning" at all. Knowing your players is important
I ran it once on halloween as a one shot. It was fun and I told them I was curious how far they could get. Let them make 20th level characters.
Hey dude all I got to say is go with it. It is a difficult fight I'm not gonna lie. I was in a party that just beat it (it was also a party of 5)
But dude as long as your party has fun and it's a challenge. You did your job.
I really don't care much for the grind house campaigns and when I dm I try to give my party a challenge and make it a difficult situation, but I always make it to where they can over come it.
It's just my dming style but I like to tell a story and to me having a story where the hero's face death multiple times but find a way thru or find a way to bring there friends back sounds a lot more satisfying than every road side encounter being something they barely scrapped by and the party is full of people who didn't even start out with the group.
As far as tomb goes it's meant to be difficult yeah but they give you the books as a guide to the campaign but you don't have to follow along exactly you can make it your own story still.
Advice the guy who taught me how to dm gave me along time ago sticks out to me right now and that's "If you aren't having fun as a dm, then there is no point in running the game. So run your game the way you and your party both enjoy."
Sounds like you guys have both a great DM & a great group of intelligent players. I happily enviable ;)
I grew up in Gary Gugax AD&D. When o am in a dungeon, I check EVERYTHING every 5 feet!
Having played this in 2nd and every other edition, I can safely say that it is hard if you are not experienced and careful. If you have played several Ravenloft campaigns then you are prepared for such kinds of adventures
It of course depends on the players, but most people I've played with have enjoyed the over the top you're just going to die at the end of ToH (also sort of the end of ToA). Acererak is a powerful dude, he put this tomb here to mess with people, you made it through, now he's going to obliterate you. You the player are not the most powerful people out there, and when you mess with the people who are, you're going to get slapped down. That IS fair.
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life" - Captain Picard
Judging from what you're saying. I would let them win after a very hard end boss. I would let them feel like heroes.
If you are interested, I am nearly finished...two more rooms to go...in building Tomb of Horrors in Minecraft. Once I am finished, I will make the world available for free to anyone interested.
Of course, there are differences, because of the limitations of the Minecraft engine. For instance, in ToH, the walls are covered in hieroglyphics and without mods you cannot do that so I replaced them with paintings. Also, some traps work differently than described in ToH, but are in my opinion, are as equivalent as possible. Leave a reply to my comment and I will do what i can to make it available. If anyone knows of a place that I can save the world for everyone, please share that.
Really interesting thoughts there. Stuff like that worries me to no end when I GM a campaign or adventure. I think, in the end it always comes down to communication. As you said, you prepared them for this kind of adventure, over-prepared them even. Now I don't know your players, but I assume they did listen to what you were telling them. Meaning, even if the end fight might feel cheap at first, they'll probably quickly see that this was exactly what you were preparing them for.
This is my hope!
I'm running Tomb of Horrors this week. I haven't given all this free stuff and free clerical casts: However....One Prince, five squires, and five pirates are with them. They are level 6, not level 11. I expect all the 'hirelings' will meet their end, bringing the party alone by the 11th room. And here we go. I can't run Acerak at level 6, so I'll have to punch that down. My players are noobies...my expectation is a Cleric and Warlock: Celestial will be working overtime keeping them alive or reincarnated.
I loved this video as much as I love your other content! Keep it up! =)
Aside Yawning Portal ToH being easier than the original, ToH per se was thought as a tournment dungeon where the dm was supposed to try to kill the players. Maybe you did overprepared them. But the important thing is that they had fun.
Tomb of Horrors! I played that module back in... 1985? The AD&D version. Wow, that was a tough one. I'll comment more on your part 2...
TPK incoming from BBEG. I think the manual literally says the lich looks at you and kills you, no save lol.
I know you’re done and all, but the thing about DMing is that you are in control. I know you know this, but if you feel an encounter isn’t going the way you would like it to, change it. Fudge a dice roll, introduce a new complication for either your players or their enemy, etc. You can tweak this stuff ahead of time too, obviously. If the lich is hitting your party too hard and they are groaning and moaning just don’t hit them as hard. The trap they triggered? It malfunctioned and just snapped apart or isn’t operating correctly, no harm done. With the freedom a DM has its difficult to blame the module. However, don’t underestimate your players either. I can’t tell you how many times I thought “there’s no way they are going to be able to clear this” and they proceed to steam roll the encounter and are left wondering what the fuss was about. Bottom line, do what you can, even on the fly, and things will be fine.
What you're saying is true, and normally I do change stuff a bit to either balance it or make it feel more "fair" on the fly. However I felt the point of Tomb of Horrors was to defeat your players, to kill them. The module is more adversarial between DM and Player. This was why I had a difficult time with it, I wanted to honor the module without my players feeling cheated.
the horrible thing about the first and second edition version of TOH is there is really no way of killing the lich at the end unless you get really, really,lucky,killer module indeed!
Its been decades but I think high level clerics can mess him up pretty good
Use a high DEX wizard, casting [2nd lvl] "forget" spell, while a sufficiently high paladin / ranger [hasted] attacks with a +4/+5 quality sword; Properly timed, the skull sinks to resting spot; repeat several-several times. 4 attacks/round means 10-15 damage (minimum). At ~ 60 hit points [ or 6 rounds of combat ] the skull will shatter to dust, "apparently" destroyed. Finish it off with gobs of holy water, and a Wish [1], and the demi-lich is toast.
I'm about to run it, and I see that a lot of the 1e traps are different from the 5e traps. 5th edition isn't nearly as deadly, and first edition often doesn't give saving throws for some of the traps. would recommend to running 5e to keep the original next to you, so if someone does fall into a trap look at what the original said. example (spoiler) for the first spiked pit trap, in the first edition you would take damage and make a save against poison. If you failed your dead, that's it. 5e, you just take damage equal to about half your health on average. I would give the spike damage, do the save vs poison 5e DC fail=death. I think it's important to keep the spirit of the original game in mind when running this.
You can definitely tell you're a new school DM. Also the 5E conversion of ToH is watered down from the original as far lethality. Also....you don't always win in life....D&D is the same way, unbalanced encounters are essential. It's not always about hacking and slashing your way to victory.
Nothing wrong with new DMs! ;)
Definitely not....my comment was more concerning the mindset of those from the older editions of the game to those starting it now.
I thought by this time, DMs and PCs alike would know what the Tomb contain and what it’s about given its reputation. Running this module as written will require a disclaimer beforehand and as a one off with disposable one shot characters.
Treat it as a drinking game. Every time a character dies, take a drink.
Thank you for this frankness. All these fears and weird balancing issue is the reason I've been cautious of it. :S Take it easy, fellow. This level of unknown is so ripe for unforeseen awesome. Hope.
I think it's good to dive in. If I never took a chance I would have never started DM'ing in the first place. Don't get me wrong I'm having a good time with ToH it's just a different beast to go through :)
I hope you get to run it or play in it sometime!
Hey Jorphdan, any thoughts on running the Tomb of Horrors with a higher level party? Is it possible to adapt the traps and puzzles to still be interesting for level 15-17 characters?
Magic can do so much for you at higher levels. So perhaps adding some more antimagic fields at certain traps would level the playing field. And upping the DC to find magic doors and traps. Right now at level 11 the Rogue (thanks to an ability they get) can't roll below a 21 to find traps and every DC has been around 15-20.
Nice thanks! I'm not quite sure when I will put it in but I really think the Tomb of Horrors would be a blast with my group and your comments here kinda confirm that, especially the part about consequences being a big part of this module. Thanks for sharing ;)
The Tomb of Horrors
Draw sword and wand and follow the guide,
Bring courage if the youth be strong in bloom;
The skull grins upon the mountain side,
Acererak is in his tomb.
Pull down the walls, bring sword and light
That there be no foot silent in the room
Nor mouth from screaming , nor from blood unspent;
Acererak is in his tomb.
In vain, in vain; the grinning skull still cries
The everlasting taper lights the gloom;
All wisdom shut into his jeweled eyes
Acererak sleeps in his tomb.
-James Gerald Koch -
This module was created to test advanced players. It is intentionally hard and is more of a tournament module.
Change up the traps little leave it where they disable all the traps the tomb collapses or a secondary trap when they deactivate all the traps you can't let them run through the full tomb without at least one of them dying
a video I have not noticed before.. its like finding a crisp 20 in an old jacket :)
noice!
Happy New Year.
So I don't know the module as I haven't look through it or played in it yet but I did watch the force Grey season 2 that Matthew Mercer Rin for all the voice actor friends. It seemed to me that he gave them and Escape and that made it okay. There was a portal in the room where they fight the Lich that allowed them to leave if they can make it to it. So that became part of the fight is how do we get everyone out. Not sure if that is in there or if that's something they came up with
+Grevari Games I think that's something they came up with, but not a bad idea.
Jorphdan it would give them a chance to have a chance. If that makes sense. I don't think having an unwinnable fight is a bad thing in D&D but having a unwinnable fight without either prep that it's coming or a chance of Escape would be bad. For instance if I knew I was going to face the biggest baddest glitch around then I would understand what I was getting myself into. But if I don't think he is going to show up then I would at least want a way to get out of there when he does
pussified one of the greatest modules ever...congratulations
ToH rules. There has to be a few insane, extreme examples of any art form. This is brutal death metal. It's supposed to sound like that, it's doing its
job and achieving its objectives, it's not for everyone, other things are not supposed to be like it, and it's not supposed to be like other things.
we just started it, and i think im being a bit heavy handed with telling them to make perception checks in places where theyd normally not ask. i started my players at 12 because theres only 3 and they have no healer
To run it the correct way, you have to describe what the players see and they have to make questions if they want more details, no rolls needed. Perception checks kinda ruin the point of it being a thinking-player's scenario.
This dungeon shouldn't be the first old school dungeon crawl of any group, as it either ends up being a complete massacre or too hand-holdy that just defeats the purpose.
My one and only time running ToH I was obliterated in the first hallway. How was my dumb warrior supposed to know the black orb was a sphere of annihilation?
I let intend to let them play two characters each and send 8 into the dungeon as some sort of raid team, no magic items, expecting at least one of their characters to die. That way they can see some of the gruesome deaths and keep going.
I shall call thee Sharkey of Bag End.
They're fighting Acererak himself, I don't think that expecting to lose against this legendary demi-lich is unreasonable. I think it's far more unreasonable to go into a module such as this and expect to win the final battle. I can understand that losing at the end can be somewhat unsatisfactory but I honestly don't think that it's a bad conclusion to the module. And on top of that I think that, even though your PCs haven't died in this hard module, it's not like you're spoiling them and making it particularly easy for them. They were warned that it's a very difficult module and they're dealing well with it so I think that they're not going to be particularly bitter or salty about losing to Acererak.
1e is much more difficult and deadly compare to 5e. In 5e it is too easy to heal all the time, really don’t die but mostly leaves you naked and penniless (which can be funny at times). PCs really have to try really really hard to die in 5e, to make it work, spell restrictions could be an option, if the pc use an spell slot to cast a spell they can no longer use it until a long rest.
Just a suggestion: when you put the text in the bottom right it can be covered by the time stamp. Maybe try the top left or bottom left
good idea, thanks. Maybe I'll change the thumbnail when I get a chance
I feel like they may not find the fight fair but they would as Matt Colville says, "Believe" in the fight. They are immersed in its unfairness because this is the ancient tomb of a DemiLich. They are trespassing.
D&D isnt a videogame, its a living breathing world too. If you kick down someones front door whose a KNOWN powerful wizard, then expect to be barbecued.
I think your players will find it funny that they got through his entire dungeon and then get flattened by him. This is a comedy module, so play up how exasperated the Lich is for having to reset all of his traps and use a mop to clean up the 10th set of adventurers today, complaining about stupid kids. 😂
For players that like to think: Tomb of Horrors is the hard challenge. For players that like to just roll dice, that award goes to Doomvault.
Fuck Doomvault.
You need to completely split the group up for 1 and to you need to incapacitate any Rogues or bards and make spellcasters burn through their spells per day you should be able to accomplish this if you split them up use a trap or something that divides the group some way of making them go off on their own
Absurdly difficult fights are the best last week I had one of the most fun fights in my life where I 1v1 an owl bear and won as a level 3 barbarian/rouge
I have oversold a the death rate. It is part learning the craft of DMing. I find getting the pulse of the players can be more relevant. Than asking people here on your channel. Just my opinion.
Fair and balanced unfortunately have no place in ToH, it's legit to say; oh yeah we were ultra cautious and slinked through the dungeon almost carefree, only to get TPKed by the lich because we weren't high enough lvl!
Yeah, Level 11 isn't nearly high enough Level to be taking on a DemiLich... Hell, a regular lich is like what, 18 cr? Imagine the Demi's cr.
Can you give details of your group? How many peeps and what classes / races?
+misomiso 5 players. Drow fighter, dragonborn monk, bugbear rogue, tiefling warlock, and elf cleric
I mean.... The Tomb was meant for the DM to have fun, not the players. The entire dungeon was made to take down Gygax's arrogant players a notch and show them that even the mightiest warrior can be slain like a dog and the strongest wizard and be slaughtered like a mere mortal.
You need to know your players. If your players like to explore, then it's fine for them to survive. If they want a challenge because the players are very achievement oriented, there should be guides for how hard things will be for your players at each level. The difficulty should be JUST above their typical skill level so that they have to get in the flow of things to succeed. Taking damage and dying will give the player feedback for their next try.
i think the original intention of the module was to fuck with and kill as many players as you could because gary gygax made it for a small wargame convention where players would come with 20-30 characters because of how brutal the dm's had to make their small adventures and to fuck with the players that could slap through dungeons and not care about the dungeon itself
I think you missed the point of the module. Somebody's got to bite it early to set the tone
IDK, that just sounds like you have really good players :)
Yup, you 'messed up'. Bracelet of 'no-death' is good idea tho
*on the next DM thoughts*: "So my players crushed the lich in 5 turns. I'm feel I my have aided my players too much and the fight may have been anti-climactic, but my players had an awesome time steamrolling something I told them was really hard."
In 5 turns the demilich should have killed 5 players ...how many did he have make it to the boss fight ?
1: Its just a game, man
2: Where is no way to run a module wrong, you can do whatever you want with it
3: A challenging adventure is fun
4: You can run this module with different players and see for yourself what you like better
5: I think you overly prepared them, they know the tomb is deadly and when they die its just part of the game
6: Your players are no children, if they cant handle defeat then its their problem
7: In my opinion you overthinking this, which keeps you from having fun as a DM
Number 7 especially :) I'm totally overthinking this, and was from the start. Good comment!
I feel you man, i´ve been through these problems too and I learned that you can do your best but life is random, therefore sometimes you succeed and sometimes not although you did the exact same thing.
So just enjoy yourself
You're not wrong except that if his player can't handle defeat, it does become his problem, because now he has to find new players if he doesn't feel he has enough.
He only ran this because his wife left her spot open. Sometimes you have to capitulate to another player IF you value that relationship more then DND.
"my wife didn't want to play... so we replaced her."
So no ones armor melted ?
I'd just keep on keeping on. CRs aren't very reliable in 5e and, as you illustrated with the part of your video where you talked about worrying the dungeon hadn't been deadly enough for them, you should never underestimate your players.