Narrated D&D Story: Why All BBEGs Are Not Big, Bad And Evil
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- Опубліковано 3 чер 2020
- Are we the baddies? All hail the BFFEG!
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Story Source (by u/Exvind, Reddit): bit.ly/BBEGsNotEvil
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Hello friends! This really was my magnum opus, I hope you all enjoy!
Exvind you mind if I use this guy as my next games BBEG?
@@Overclocked-nm2vu Go for it! The Kurst Empire is appropriately scary to any outsider, but is fiercely dedicated to its citizens!
@Josiah Sepulveda i.imgur.com/NNzJ8G8.gif
Werner is literally Oda Nobunaga. As you may or may not know history has been rather kind to him
@@firestorm165 That it has!
This story reminded me of a kind of old joke:
- "There's an army aproaching!"
- "Are they friends or foes?"
- "They're friends"
- "You sure? How can you tell?"
-"Well, theyre holding hands"
By the sound of it there was never any Evil intent, there was no innocent blood spilt, he kept his word, he made the entire continent a better place, he didn't rule by fear, he looked out for and was loved by his subjects, and didn't do anything that wasn't necessary. You can't really call him a bad guy at all, his motives were pure.
Means to an end, but I agree, this is the BEST BBEG I ever saw, totally would join him :D
I agree. This guy, while seeming menacing, has made everyone under his reign benefit. However, this rule of peace could very easily be compromised if somebody else were to take the throne.
Yeah, I mean, he's kind of the opposite of "the Smiler." He's a strangely evil-looking but actually good guy who benefits everyone he touches, so long as they don't mind an edgelord motif.
Innocent blood was spilt. He conquered his neighbors for their resources and killed many innocents to do it
@@JakeConrad666 Well, that kind of depends on the outcome though, doesn't it? I mean, conquering them was at the very least in the best interests of his own people, because it expanded their resources, but also by the accounts of the DM he was a good ruler, so it's reasonable to believe it was also in the best interests of the nations he conquered. So long as the invasions weren't _too_ bloody, most of the people probably turned out for the best. Aside form the local nobility, who nobody probably liked much anyway.
This Werner guy is just a very friendly and human Ains Ooal Gown
Personally I believe what he was truly doing what's creating Peace by war most fictional leaders cannot achieve this but this one did and I think personally think that he handled this power really well so no I really do not think they are
I know RIGTH?
I think that a good example of friendly evil in media is actually in overlord as Sebas. He is a good dude who helps people out but is aligned with the "bad guy"
Overlord generally just has a good number of Friendly Evil
@@baxterbruce9827 i would say that it has 2 which are cocytus and sebas
An evil overlord that knows that happy people is working people?
_Impossible_
It's a simple thing, really, but hard to pull off. To create a person like this, one must balance the iron fist and velvet hand. Be kind to the populous, your allies, and your friends. Show mercy, compassion, and respect. But know when to put on the mask of a tyrant. Do not let your mercy and compassion be mistaken for hesitation and weakness. If your empire is struck, strike back in kind and then some, show no mercy for those that wish harm to your people. Leave a hand out for potential friends but if they slap it away and disrespect you, do not be afraid to give them the same courtesy.
Why do you think dr. Doom is loved in Latveria
I’m actually playing a necromancer who is leading a rebellion. By all means I am an evil character attempting to take over a kingdom that wronged my. So ya.
why not? even Sauron treated his subjects well initially.
This response reminds me of Charlton Heston's line from The Ten Commandments when talking about why he gave the slaves more food and they 7th day to rest. *holds up a brick* "The strong make many, the weak make few." *places it on a scale, it clatters* "The dead make none."
Ah, yes. The easiest way to convince an adventuring party to do the DM's bidding; bribing them with magical weaponry.
Thanks for the video, and stay safe!
yes.
That's half of it. The other half is camaraderie
New alignment... "Friendly Evil". Because compromise.
I've had a character with the alignment chaotic good with sadistic tendencies that character could treat anything evil as if his alignment was chaotic evil
This is just Lawfull-Evil, albeit with good intentions. Maybe Lawfull-Netral.
"That just sounds like 'Chaotic Good' with extra steps!" Lol.
this story was on neckbeardia a while ago, the video was called "the rise of friendly evil"
Just because you are evil does not mean that you are hostile. It can mean that while you intend to be a good individual, your actions tend to cause harm and suffering. In this case, this individual would actually believe they are good and doing the right thing, unable to truly see the consequences of their actions. Unfortunately, this information has not been included in the current edition as the discussion on alignment is now down to a single page and extremely limited whereas alignment used to be its own chapter in earlier editions due to the complexity of the subject.
This guy sounds like what Handsome Jack was trying to be.
The best bad guys are the one you never realized were better then your heroes and idols and if you're very ambitious, your gods. Bffeg is best lol, who says you're the baddies, he has a dark motif sure but still could be worse
When villains in movies talk about there being no such thing as good or evil, they need to be like this BBEG.
Also, they're wrong.
Samuel Evans I mean, they arnt
Good and evil are concepts based on opinions of if you like what another person or thing is doing
@@thealchemistking4063 There are some things that can't be defended and will always be evil. Rape (in all its forms), torture, scat porn, etc.
Gyrre that’s perspective
There are people who both do and enjoy that.
What makes your distain for it any greater then their love for it
Your both humans with different perspectives. And if your religious don’t use it as an excuse as I am an atheist and it dosnt matter to me.
Simply put. What is one human to decide what is wrong for another human to do
@@thealchemistking4063 I'm just going to disagree with you there. There's no defending kiddie fiddlers.
When you get down to it, Werner was a ruler. Everything he had the party do that was described to us is about the needs of the kingdom, from expanding its influence to claiming more resources, to hunting down threats. The only thing I personally would call evil is the mind control with charm magic, but that's on the sorceress.
I don’t think she needed to use magic to charm him
And the Family heirloom that turns souls into spell slots lol
I feel like this empire would do well with that nation of friendly necromancers (both the one led by Astoshan, and the one massacred by those “chaotic neutral” murder-hobos).
They'd all prosper in that aspect
Hmm... MORE ASTOSHAN!
I could definitely see a campaign world that included all 3 with the mountain city of dead being surrounded by the country of necromancers. Actually makes sense on food stuffs and maybe live stock farming for the undead appetites. This might be one of their best trade partners as they could have a heavily mutually beneficial trade system and hey, insurgents get a one way ticket to the dinner plate.
Wholesome evil alliance
Actually
Edgy chaotic good alliance.
This story is amazing. Just because he is the "bad guy" doesn't mean that he's a bad guy.
This vaguely reminds me of a campaign backdrop I came up with a while ago where I'd have two major factions on far sides of a large continent, initially separate but eventually coming to blows.
On one side, a kingdom of law and good. A capital city of splendor and prosperity, held up and defended by the angels of Celestia themselves. Currently lead by the great grandson of a legendary human priest/general who united the lands under the glory of the heavens for both righteousness and good. Unfortunately, the current king is, while appearing regal and refined. Giving off an air of kindness and humility. Is actually a chaotic-neutral member (not the leader of) a demon worshiping cult which has spread it's influence to most of the kingdoms hierarchy. Slowly turning the shining beacon of hope into a ivory-tower dystopia.
On the other side, an oddly intelligent Tejumin-esc fey worshiping, lawful-neutral, half-orc barbarian war chief is running a successful campaign of conquest across all of the lesser kingdoms. Destroying those who refuse to surrender, or outright insult him. And butchering anyone seen as traitorous or treacherous, regardless of which side they betrayed. All while leaving behind good aligned leaders to bring prosperity to those who have surrendered peacefully, and sending his most trusted commanders to lead war bands against those who rebel.
While not necessarily the core plot of the campaign, it seems like a fun enough idea to make the players decide over time what brand of peace/cruelty they side with when good and evil are much more obscure.
Edit: IDK, Genghis might be more accurately described as a ranger. perhaps a multiclass build
Or the much simpler point of reference. Wreck it Ralph!
Honestly the war chief sounds better all told, yeah he seems brutal at surface level, but think of it logistically, if a town refuses to surrender, odds are they'll continue a resistance force if just conquered, and with effectively a rival superpower brewing on the opposite side of the continent, you can't afford to waste resources putting down insurrections in your own land. Traitors, regardless of whom they betray, are just as likely to go turncoat again to an opposing force for their own gain as they are to remain loyal, making an example of them instills loyalty, or if loyalty cannot be found through it, fear. Not to mention he seems to have a fairly libertarian way of running things, make sure they can survive, but otherwise staying fairly hands off.
Genghis. I see what you did there.
on the one hand, mr barbarian man seems kind of a jerk, though it would look like his heart is at least somewhere near the right place? I think?
on the other hand, mr demon-worshipper sounds like he has ZERO redeeming qualities.
@@christopherbravo1813 One of my favorite potential lines of conversation from this setting, if the party decided to jump down the rabbit hole, is a (decidedly rambling) line from an old blind scholar they might meet during downtime. He has no name, but is an loose allegory for Utnapishtim from the epic of Gilgamesh.
"If the fair people knew of the warrior priest, what had must be done to establish the Kingdom of Light. They would not blame the warlord. The angels might favor it. **he trails off for a bit** "
This feels a lot like a practical guide to evil, doing the wrong things for the right reasons and all that. practical guide is one of the best writeen webnovels out there and i strongly recommend to anyone who wants something to ready this quarantine, it follows the history of catherine, who wanted to change her country for the better, and ended up becoming a "villain" to do so, in a world where narrative has a lot of power. It is on its book 6 if i am not mistaken, the last one as well.
That's why the Evil Overlord Checklist is something to live by!
I second the Guide, amazing series that I feel will be remembered as one of the best in Fantasy once it gets officially published. For now, enjoy the "first draft" that is the amazing web novel.
What's the precise name of the guide? I seem to gravitate towards morally ambiguous characters that are "evil" but are evil with the right intentions. You know, doing it for the right reasons but using the wrong methods and way of thinking sort of deal.
@@ErikaWeiss633 If you want the webnovel/serial name then it is "A practical guide to evil".
@@matheusataide3368 Thank you.
Are we the baddies? All hail the BFFEG!
Who's with me? 🤔
Thank you and the team for making this happen!
I honestly love these kinds of questions, you look evil, sound evil, implement policies some would consider to be evil, and call your self emperor and want to expand, but you aren't. Your people love you, you have less crime than the most prosperous nation's, built a planet side Dyson sphere for clean energy for all, and they are genuinely happy. Honestly, is it worth it? Do the pros outweigh the cons? Will the great emperor's descendants continue his benevolence? Only time and history shall tell...
We're running into an opposite problem in our villain campaign (mutants and masterminds very loosely incorporating elements of John Wick, the X-Men and the cthulhu mythos). We're bad guys, immoral to the bone, looking for money and revenge. And yet, we keep getting thrown against EVEN WORSE people, and accidentally doing good. All I want is to pilot my invulnerable mech and punch a deep old God, and make tons of money from the various online videos of the event, but can't get rich off of views if everyone's dead...
@@windyface9383 Accidental heroes are my favorite kind!
This is very much like the game tyranny, but better cause they actually care about their citizens, and I think that who is the bad guy, is dependent on who is losing the fight, aside from obvious things like, killing off its own citizens for illegal/and or immoral reasewrch and covering it up, and the like.
In this case, it’s a no to them being the bad guys, but a no to them being the good guys.
You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. The only way to subvert that fate is to become a legend. Because hero's get remembered, but legends never die. My hint to my future players when I DM'ed in Adnd 2nd and 3rd e. I really have to DM a 5th e. game one day.
My sentiments exactly! In fact, I have many "sayings" that I came up with regarding such in my spare time but here's three of them:
- "You either die a hero, live long enough to see yourself become the villain, our outlive the two and become a fulfilled legend. A man is only full when he eats everything on his plate"
- "If every idealistic hero got their way, then the world would run out of heroes quickly. That's why I'm here. To make sure heroes continue to be here.
Whether the heroes help the world reach paradise or help the villain reach my goals first well... that's where the fun is."
- "That is to say the villains follow their own journey. Or perhaps there is no villain at all in stories. Rather, it is simply a clash of two heroes and the
winner of the conflict is deemed heroic and the loser a villain. What if the villain is actually a competing hero? But instead of success they failed their
journey?"
They’re not villains, they’re just really evil looking
One of my favorite games there was no ambiguity: we were the Big Bads.
I like to make everyone the big bad but only tell each of them they are the big bad 😁
"What if the Fire Nation actually wanted to help"
Ah, the Dark Lord Rogers story. I remember this one.
All hail the friendly neighbor,my neighbor!
Now all we need is for him to become allies with an ancient horror with a soft voice and has a knack for painting trees and clouds
@@Mr.2Dirty how can I make a deal with the elder god Bob Ross?
Emperor Werner Von Deitrich, he's a really awesome guy to his people and has ended all violent evils in his land. It's only right he spread his justice and benevolence to his neighbors... and he believes all of this and it is kind of hard to say no since he probably would make these conquered places really nice to live in. The party where still the heroes in this one since they actually did build an empire people would want to live in, basically tamed the dangers of their land and did something rarely done in a D&D game which is make the usually evil races more tolerate and friendly, probably even dare to say GOOD.
That was the intent!
Kinda like how, at least according to Fate/Zero, Alexander the Great conquered many lands but they loved him for it.
Oh god, they're playing D&D British Empire
sips Tea menacingly
mmm enchanted monocles
The sad thing is, you're kinda not wrong.
As if the British empire was the only one who tried to conquer more territory...
Leo Sciotti no but they did it most effectively out of all of the various conquering nations.
Warner: exists
Me: COGNITIVE DISSONANCE INTENSIFIES
Werner: I have brought peace, security, and justice to my new empire
*Democracy dies with thunderous applause*
@@richardarriaga6271 The kingdom next door is like, "your new empire?" and Werner replies, "Sorry, I mean't *our* new Empire
@@richardarriaga6271 When people live well and the ruler is capable and cares about his people without laying a hand on them, it does not matter what political system the ruler choose.
@@alexplayer8367 You say that til the ruler goes mad or dies, leaving the idiot son to rule. In any case, systems of government can encourage behavior. Western societies generally don't see genocidal behavior because there is another faction to oppose them or hold them to account. (small d) Democratic Presidents can be impeached (re: South Korea) or voted out. Or sometimes bad ones don't have control over all the levers of government to enact their evil. A dictator answers to no one.
ATDND: the barbarian is uncomfortable
Subtitle: the ranger is uncomfortable
I think Handsome Jack said it best when he said: “Everyone thinks they’re the hero of their own story...”
I mean he's not really evil, he's just got a dark aesthetic that I can appreciate. Everything else seems to have been good intentioned
He the mandatory "trade deals" was a clear step into evil territory but up until then he is pretty typical Lawful Good. Well those toys seem to be a bit shady too... But yeah, up until thene he just has a dark aesthetic.
I can appreciate this I have an Lawful Good Albino Paladin who wears black armor. He serves a goddess of the moon, and basically plays the role of team dad. He's just a all around good guy with aheart of gold, who happens to be s spooky red eyed albino with a pitch black suit of armor. I mean he has some Blue and silver on his sir coat and armor, but most of his armor has been lacquered black to prevent rust, and cut down on maintenance during long journeys (His order the Knight Guard is devoted to potrolling roads and protecting travelers as Travel and Protection are two of his Goddesses primary domains.) Basically everything has an innocent explination, well except the red eyes that was a spot of bad luck on my part which saddled the poor bastard with an evil blood line.
@@patrickbuckley7259 looks evil but not actually evil, you wouldn't kill your own people to keep them from starving.
At least everyone is happy
literally everyone:"All hail BFFEG!"
Me, an intellectual:"All hail All Things DnD!"
Villains like these are my favorite, as they present something of a paradox. On the one hand, they're doing something that (from a certain point of view) is normally considered evil. On the other hand, they're motives/personality are (from a certain point of view) almost noble, and we can't help but cheer them on.
That story was awesome. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Also, maybe the econography of Werner's civilization is why the party had reservations about their friend and ruler. If it was all golden columns, arches of marble, prussian blue royal capes and flowery, italian fountains, with some arcane lighting touches for good measure, they wouldn't even flinch.
Bingo~
I'd actually like to run a campaign doing exactly that. Maybe make it so the party, after a long old while not asking/questioning it, have reality warped to a false reality where literally only the color pallet is switched.
It's like how you can go throughout the entirety of Dragon Age: *Inquisition* , being someone called "The Inquisitor", and leading an *actual* inquisition, before it dawns on you that you are, well, leading an inquisition and are a religious figure.
This is one of these "It's not just black and white" scenarios, where the bbeg isn't evil, but it seems like he is from the view of sn outsider. I just love it when the "villian" has "good" motives, and is really likable when you know him. The befriendable villian makes a great story, especially when it's a bit harder to become his ally, so if the players are forced to kill him (or let him die) it has greater impact. Sadly, all of their charm is lost, when your party consists of murderhobos...
"Shall we be allies? No? Then, I'm afraid, you MUST kneel "
For all the CN PCs that take that to be 'We can do whatever we want and kill whoever we want but we're not evil we're just chaotic.' We now have the LN NPC that makes them all look like amatuers.
I know there could be a strong argument for any lawful alignment but I personally feel like LN is the most accurate.
Actually, lawful evil, but I would doubt the individual is aware of their actions causing harm, something that used to be part of the description for the majority of evil individuals in D&D. After all, it's not a comic book where you have evil individuals laughing and making machinations for world dominance. It is just a character that is unaware that their actions are actually causing harm while believing they are doing the right thing.
And for those that are chaotic neutral that do whatever they want, actions have consequences. Too many acts of good or evil will change their alignment, unless the DM is incompetent. Murder a bunch of people and you get chaotic evil murderhobos. One cannot murder scores of people and remain neutral unless the DM is a fool and refuses to alter their alignment accordingly.
@@craigtucker1290 like I said an argument could be made for either (depends how the other kingdoms were conquered). Also from what was said it appears that they were aware that wars cause harm but believed they had to in order to feed their people, I would argue it's a slightly more extreme version of the US in the middle east with better intentions.
We all know those CN players should be switched to CE (but even then they'll probably get killed by consequences, even the weirdest serial killers made sure not to openly attack people in broad daylight with multiple witnesses) but I was using them as the antithesis of the paladin in the story.
@@justanotherglorpsdaymornin5097Hardly a sterling justification for being neutral as there are quite a few that would make the argument that the actions of US place it as an antagonist, opponent, and meddler in world affairs while others would just call the US evil. Using that comparison would still place this story more on the evil side than the neutral as lawful neutral respects the rule of law (sound familiar), which includes treaties, sovereignty, and rights of even its own citizens accused of treason. Expansionism, even if intended to help your citizens, is seen as imperialism which by our standards today (changes through time) is oppressive and the source of much strife even now.
An apt point about even serial killers show restraint, usually, though the ones that go on a spree tend to come to an end quickly just like all murderhobos should as well. The problem is when the DM does not have any other significant leveled NPCs to enforce a believable reality to their game due to a misguided belief that only the PCs should be allowed to excel to greatness. It was partly for this reason why there were so many detailed canon NPCs for specific campaign settings along with the typical reasons to allow NPCs to have high levels as a matter of verisimilitude. I always shake my head when I hear of CN murderhobos as it is a sign of a DM that does not know how to use alignment or how to stop such behaviour from occurring. I don't recall this really being an issue back in the day as it seems to be more of a problem for these later editions due to the glossing over of alignment (one page? really?), how it applies, and that it is an ever fluid thing based on each character's actions.
I do see part of the problem with the current edition as well in that they removed alignment detecting spells. Detect evil/good has been radically altered from how it used to work to its current incarnation and true seeing used to reveal alignments (for priests), but I see they removed that property in this edition. And whatever happened to the know alignment spell? This used to be a standard spell in such situations for this very reason. Perhaps they should have completely removed alignment from this edition since it seems to be so fundamentally deficient in explanation and many do not seem to know how it is/was supposed work or how to classify individuals these days...
@@craigtucker1290 I've never really thought alignment was all that important (granted I started on 5e) because real life humans have differing priorities that will supersede alignments. I build the character's personality, backstory and views and then pick the alignment that best fits (even if it sometimes feels a little off).
I can definately see that he could be LE but the other kingdoms are (assuming this is much like medieval kingdoms as most fantasy settings are based on a high fantasy slightly rose-tinted view of the medieval period) dictatorships and if they are run by a inept dictators/kings (as the cesation of trade deals for the sake of traditional hatred of certain races implies) a violent uprising could well be considered CG because an inept king could easily cause far more damage than an evil one. So considering a violent invasion as LN isn't much of a stretch.
My point about the US was that whilst it was (in most people's minds) a stupid and probably evil (at least in the alignment sense) move the US government (at least at that point) would probably have a LN alignment overall.
@@justanotherglorpsdaymornin5097 Alignment was important to the game originally, but it did have to be revised several times with AD&D 2nd edition actually exploring the subject the best. Original D&D actually only had chaos, neutral, and law for alignments, while AD&D added another axis of good and evil. This was how your character generally behaved and could change with prolonged behaviour typical of another alignment. Alignment would not change because you stole a dagger as a lawful good character, but if you continued to steal, your characters respect for the law no longer applies. Also, changing alignment was a big deal back in the day and doing so would restrict level advancement so one would generally try to pick the alignment that best suits their character and follow (and no, the DM was not supposed to let the player know if they changed alignment). I can see that the current designers have moved to eliminate alignment in some ways, yet they keep it without explaining how it works or what it means. Alignment is difficult to use if you are used to it and it is explained with some guidance, but this does not seem the case in the current edition which makes me wonder why bother. There isn't any penalty associated with changing alignment in the game nor is there any instruction on if the DM should change alignments of PCs acting differently than their declared alignment or when to do so.
The problem with this example is that as far as alignment is actually defined (or lack thereof in the current edition) in D&D, this individual is lawful evil in that their actions continue to promote oppression within their own kingdom though the rule of law and order. Try as hard as he can, each time the character does something to bring his people together, he just causes more harm and suffering, despite having noble intentions.
As to the US, I think more people in the world see the US as a problem than a shining beacon or even a neutral 3rd party.
Me, who plays 'Stronghold: Crusaders' and beat the entire first Crusader Trail trails by ruling with no taxes and had the people's full support, but also decorated their castle with a ton of nooses, cages, and heads on spikes:
"I can relate." XD
8:28 Destroying souls?
That amulet is EVIL, MUST be DESTROYED!
...
Edit: Also, anyone with a soul should be insulted that it's aparently only worth a single 1st level spell-slot.
it has a crapy power conversion rate
propably created by overly ambitious alchemist
I agree
I mean, I have a strong suspicion that it was the Sorceress who was the true BBEG of this campaign....
Might be it tries to stop soul from slipping and uses the force of it actually doing so into power.
I don't know how I feel... I think they stayed mostly good, depends on how he ruled and how he conquered places
Very fairly with a reliance on the party to keep him in check if he went too evil! Invasions were more to oust the powers that be and provide the same boons of his Empire to the people, and to have access to the resources needed to maintain that quality of life for the masses!
@@JakVonSerialarsonist You constructed a plausible political landscape where there is no good an evil, just struggles for power. I would wholeheartedly embrace your campaign.
@@OurayTheOwl Well, it helps that Good and Evil exist in high fantasy as tangible forces and can be managed. Vis A Vis binding devils and ensuring they cannot go around tormenting mortals. BUT STILL THANK YOU!
I kinda feel that he was Lawful Neutral. Bringing order to chaos by civilising barbarian tribes, elevating the standards of living, respecting traditions of his people, conquering those who would not trade (to presumably giving them the same standards). Not evil, not good, just lawful, a pursuer of order and civilisation. I love lawful alignments!
His servant consumed the souls of people she defeated, leading her to murder to taste more power.
The concepts of "good" and "evil" are completely subjective. Also, the concepts of "right" and "wrong". And by "subjective", I mean, how one interprets a normally evil act might not be the same based on their personal experiences or reasons. A good case in point would be one Louis Edward Curdes, the only U.S Army Air Force pilot during World War II to have a friendly kill marked on his plane. The thing is, he had to shoot down a U.S C-130 transport plane because the radio for the C-130 wasn't working and it was heading for an Imperial Japanese air field. Thankfully, everyone on the C-130 made it off alive and safe. Curdes earned the U.S kill mark on his plane was well as a medal for his efforts. Edit: The Curdes story has an interesting ending to it. A nurse who was on that C-130 turned out to be a girl he had met at a USO club not too long before the shooting down of that plane. They wound up marrying each other and stayed happily married until their deaths.
Sad to say but this kind of incremental evil is all too easy to overlook, like the frog being slowly boiled in a pot of slowly heating water.
That said. I would have done the exact same thing these guys did. That BFFEG did this perfectly. Kudos!
Very proud of my players, I miss them all greatly! Ah college!
Ah the Anti-Villain! A personal favorite nothing like setting a noble hero against an equally noble evil. The fact of the matter is that most of what Werner did was pretty typical Lawful Good/Neutral. He started off Good aligned but slowly became evil as he allowed his good intentions to blind him to the reality of what he was doing. It was never the dark armor, the big spooky black tower, nor was it the ghoulish banner, or the macabre crown, all of this merely distracted from the truth, it was his action of forcing his will upon neighboring kingdoms simply because they where being uncooperative. He only proved them right, realistically his empire would have fallen to rebellion quite quickly, even Rome and Britain made heavy use of Diplomacy even as they conquered there empires, not so with this man, while he was Friendly to his allies, his enemies only ever really received a boot to the face. That is textbook lawful evil behaviour, doesn't matter how nice, or polite he was when he gave the order. Also soul destroying necklace, that's just plain evil.
Well to be fair, if they did it out of political maneuvering and political power then it's fair game since there really was no reason for them to constantly deny his offer when all he wanted was trade and nothing more.
Heck what did they expect? Him to crumble? Most probably
@@alexanerose4820 Well to be fair, no it's not. Forcing others to trade with you in this manner is not acceptable behavior. The trick is to find someone who will, and find a way to make them filthy rich, that's how you win these sort of trade wars. Hecl normally his plan wouldn't have even worked, he'd be facing a war alliance in no time, Real Politic is a fools game on the world stage.
@@patrickbuckley7259 you are over thinking in a DND game.
IDK, In the story he literally stated that NO OTHER COUNTRY would trade with them because there were half populated by "evil tribes of orcs and the like". And without those trades his people would die. Which is what the other countries would have wanted. They hate the tribal races and want them dead. So what would you do if your "Family" was starving to death and literally no one would give you food no matter how much you offered to pay for it? He tried to make heavy use of Diplomacy everywhere he went. Invading was his last ditch effort to save his people. . .
As others have stated if he changed the color theme the party would have never had a problem. If it was all gilded marble towers and silver banners they wouldn't have hesitated as much . . .
I remeber this story is called the rise of the Dark Emperor: Mr. Rogers.
Werner sounds like a great leader. He is lawful evil as it schould be. He cares for his allies and applies structure. Don't cross him or the laws of the land and you schould be fine. I would support him 100%
I’d say lawful neutral that majorly leans towards lawful evil. Because invading people to improve their lives and for resources you don’t strictly speaking need is not okay in my book. Still would totally join him.
H240909 lawful evil is fun since it leaves a lot of grey area, to mess around in
@@ultamaflare Lawful Neutral leaves grey areas. Lawful Evil is... well, evil. I mean its literally in both the names.
H240909 However what evil is varies based on a persons perception. For example if you save a persons life that is normally considered a good act. However, if you save a persons life and then that person (unknowingly to them) is then used as a pawn in a dark potentially malevolent plan, that act would then be considered an evil act. Lawful evil is following a code and in following that code there are eventually going to have situations where good actions will occur.
@@ultamaflare But in your example, that wasn't an evil act that the person you saved committed. Its something that was done to him. Therefore the person you saved is an innocent.
And even if that person you saved had turned out to be evil, that wouldn't make your deed of saving him evil. You aren't responsible for other people's choices. That's how free will works.
Wow, This is AMAZING! Evil is a point of view. So by that logic, everyone does what he sees as right, in this case uniting a continent under a red banner. again amazing story.
Meh red is a pretty nice color
That's why i never make a "hero" char, i totally agreed with the DMPC, and do not think any of the PCs as bad guys, just sayn' Dr Doom country is one of the most peacefull and with the happies people in all of Marvel Comics
Latveria was an inspiration I used!
@@JakVonSerialarsonist a man of culture
@@eddmenaced2prejudmentday840 It was a college experiment that turned out grand! Thank you!
and Doom loves his country and citizens. He'll fight vampires, evil gods, and deranged corporations to keep them safe. Just don't break any laws or try to speak against him
Also when Bast looked into all the futures, the one where Doom rules the Earth is the only one free of strife.
I actually want to have no BBEG and just have it be a strange object do all of the bad stuff
so....soul edge, from the Soul Calibur series?
That sounds fun, I'd do that
*Mani-Mani would like to know your location*
@@calanon534 Wasn't the Mani Mani statue was still caused by Giyagas?
@@baxterbruce9827 Hey! Someone actually got the reference!
Getting some Griffith Flashbacks from the Paladin (Only halfway through)
My last campaign was like this. My DM told us to pick a class she race and make it level 3 no subclass he'd fill that in. I ended up as an oath of conquest paladin and daughter of the bbeg. I ended up betraying my father and my DM goes you have broken your oath to the demon that your dying father hosted. It blesses/curses you with it's powers. The rest of my party walked away. I decided to take the throne becoming the new bbeg. They didn't realize until I poisoned them all.
I'm sorry that was forced on you. No player should be just a puppet of the GM. I hope you have found more joy in the game.
At the end of the day, still the good guys. Seriously, this guy was doing what was best for his people. He never killed without need, he never took more than he needed, he always put his people first and he gave his enemies every chance to join him. He's just a practical good guy who knows what looks awesome.
This guy, while seeming menacing, has made everyone under his reign benefit. However, this rule of peace could very easily be compromised if somebody else were to take the throne.
And that's why he became a Lich in the sequel.
I mean that’s the problem with insight and things like detect evil etc etc. It’s all about perspective! From the BBEG side, he’s just trying to help and unify. He wholeheartedly believes that he’s doing good and helping the world progress but the signs should have been clear.
This party’s fault is that they relied too much on their insight checks instead of just doing what they felt was the right thing.
Still an interesting story though 🤷🏻♂️
Although I see the perspective of the DMPC as a guy who wants what’s best for everyone, I would have called it quits when he started asking the party to conquer other nations in his behalf unless they attacked first. This is actually a good example of evil is a path of good intentions.
Well is it really evil if after peaceful negotiations they outright refuse because or racism and fear of maintaining their power by not allowing advancement to come?
I mean the point of morality is so that most people benefit and the BBEG did just that.
Alexane Rose is it bad if your forcing your ideology on other people that don’t want it? Yes it is, even if your intention is considered “good” and could help them. Some of the most ruthless dictators had “good” intentions that altered when reality slapped them in the face when people didn’t agree. Conquering and KILLING your neighbors because they don’t agree, trust and even fear you is vulgar and hyenas act. If that BBEG really wanted to advance, he needed to DO peaceful acts instead of talking peace as an alternative to declaring war. Anyone can talk peace like the BBEG and do some acts of good among your own people. However, what REALLY defines someone as a good person is if they do good acts for anyone, including those who hate them. If they continue to hate you, then leave them alone, it’s their choice and it is not up to you to decide for them.
Why though? He sent diplomatic envoys and was denied any trade. The other nations would have sooner or later attacked him purely because of the fact that his kingdom/empire was too powerful to ignore. It's only "EVIL" when you apply movie logic of he wares black and goes to war, so he must be bad.
@@Fankas2000I believe the term you should look for is "Innocent until proven guilty". In other words, none of the nations actually attacked first. Just because your neighbors are dush bags, doesn't give you the right to attack first. Now, if they attacked first, he is 100% in the right and can retaliate with as much prejudice as it pleases him!
@@davidjohnson6665 If are applying real world logic and not fantasy logic. He did a preemptive strike. Any leader worth his title would have done the same...
So obviously astoshan is amazing and is my favorite character, but this is honestly inspiring. I would love to DM this kind of game!
See, this is the only kind of Evil I could ever play, and to see it so masterfully done is fantastic. Werner might have, on the face of things, done exactly what a BBEG does, but his cause and methods overall were juuuuuust right.
“WITNESS THE TRUE POWER OF DARKNESS! making sense when you take the chance to think about it!” Also YIRBEL LIVES
This sounds like it was an extrmely fun campaign. Good on them. The bbeg sounds like a fantasy version of the enlightened despote. Very nicely done.
The rogue of all people asking “Are we the bad guys?”
My character for what was supposed to be a one-shot has in our fourth (I think) session had a moment, that made me think of the "Are we the baddies?" quote. He was, alongside our master detective rogue gnome, our cowardly Fighter halfling and our "effecient" human storm sorcerer, on a mission to deal with a band of mercs who terrorizes a village. But whilst he, a mostly heroic human paladin, simply wanted to incapacitate the mercs, the sorcerer had other plans. And in an attempt to save a merc from being eldrithcly blasted, he threw a merc into another room, but hurt as we was and landing head first into the floor, he died from it, making this his first actual human kill in the game yet. Whilst not as obviously questionable as this amazing BFFEG, this was definitely something that is going to be interesting to roleplay the followthrough of.
The Party:"Are we the bad guys?"
Puffin Forest:"You guys aren't evil, you're pure."
The Party:"Yay!"
Puffin Forest:"Pure Evil!"
But in all seriousness, just cause someone likes using dark and threatening colors or images doesn't mean their evil. You have to remember that some of the more...dark images in the kingdom was probably to help the beastal tribes (Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds, etc) feel more at home and welcomed in the kingdom, as dark imagery and colors is what they'd be used to. And I'm pretty sure most people would be willing to overlook dark themes in the place they live as long as the quality of living there is good and not oppressive. Which the kingdom seems to be a "Dark" Place in appearance, it seems quite peaceful and nice to live in despite the dark theming.
I mean, it's a kingdom with a king who has the best intentions of his subjects in mind, has made peace with beast races, and everything else. What's a bit of black and red dark images here and there when everything else is so good?
Ah, yes, I'd nearly forgotten: the Warlord Skitter Effect! When you rationalize more and more questionable actions, digging yourself into a deeper and deeper moral and/or ethical hole, all with the idea that you're not really a bad person.
Even as you turn into someone you wouldn't have hesitated to fight on first starting your journey. Even as you start conquering territory, when you only wanted to be a hero. Even while you castrate a man by rotting poisons, putting him in a coma.
Even while you hold a bank hostage. Even when you torture a mayor and his family. Even as you work for the man who kidnapped his 12 year old niece, who is currently held, drugged to the gills, in his basement in slavery.
Even as you help puppet a girl's body, in order to ruin her reputation. Even when you kill the local director of a government's law enforcement branch. Even as you murder your invincible childhood hero, stuffing bugs down her throat, until she chokes to death on them.
Even when you shoot a toddler to (attempt to) stop the end of the world. Even as you force a healer to perform brain surgery on you, aprking alongside one of your world's most infamous serial killers. Even while you mind control an army of uncountable victims, to battle the closest thing you have to a god.
You're not a bad guy. Really, you're not! You promise... after all, I'm only infiltrating villains as part of an illegal sting, that only I'm actually aware of! It's not like the only law enforcement official aware of this attempt has expressly told me not to, and that it's a bad idea... right?
tl;dr
This be the Skitter effect, where you rationalize your own downward spiral into deeper and darker depths, drilling right past rock bottom, as if it wasn't there, and you never noticed it, nevermind knew it existed to begin with.
tl;dr 2: electric boogaloo
"I couldn't possibly be that bad!" -Warlord Skitter, at some point (probably).
We all know how this ends, don't we?
"We're s-so very small, in the end."
@@marionette8739 In his case there is no downward spiral leader must fight at some point.
"Thus begins my reign of blood..."
"That sounds a bit grim, sire"
"Not at all! Blood is good, you need blood to live."
"Oh yeah, when you put it like that..."
Now that's Nuetral evil played very well. When it comes to subtlety the nuetral evil alignment tends to work best for villains.
My favorite games are when the players are the bad guys.
Same.
Dude literally made Talion from Shadow of War lol
I lost it at BFFEG.
"The Grimdark Evil Empire is neither Grim, nor Dark, nor Evil. Discuss among yourselves."
"Have you looked at our caps recently?"
"...Our caps?"
"Yea'the badges on our caps. H-have you looked at them?"
"...No. A bit?"
"They've got *SKULLS* on them."
“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”-Charles Baudelaire
“The second greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he is the good guy”-Ken Ammi”
"Where is this Devil so I can End It?" - Werner
WOW. I love the way this was handled.... there is no doubt in my mind that they are Evil [capital "E"] and were the BBEG without realizing how they've been manipulated with "Honesty".
But he is 100% honest.
You can be a dictator if everyone agrees with you. Doubly so if you don't have to Make Them. Thank you!
This is probably one of the best examples of villains being the hero of their own story.
Hearing this story makes me think of Mr. Rogers as an Evil Overlord.
"Do you think they're villains or heroes?"
I mean, I think at this point it's considered a gray area. On one hand, they're heroes to their people and helped keep crime at an all-time low. On the other, the flag bearing crimson and skulls on black spires drives a very compelling message....
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
Though, it should be said that if Werner is really helping out _everyone_ and not just his own, it's a pretty interesting state of things.
"It's traditionally garb."
"It's made from the skullcaps of conquered kings."
Literally Sauron, turning the party into his Nazgul
Stories like these demonstrate quite well the limitations of the alignment chart, I feel. It also reminds me of the saying/writing advice that "most villains don't see themselves as evil." There's at least two sides to every story, after all.
I absolutely adored this story. Very well done on the DM's part. :)
Thank you!
that emperor had a very doctor doom mentality with the whole "they will be happier if i was in charge"
And I was Right.
This was amazing! I’m doing something kind of similar in my current game (though not to this level). The party is trying to help this city return to glory after the literal apocalypse and a plague, and they heard rumors of the Man in the Mask who was controlling things from behind the scenes. He sounded sinister so they went to investigate. They were ready to fight in all their level one glory, and then the Man in the Mask invited them in for tea. Explained how he was trying to help the city, and sent them on a quest. He’s been serving as quest giver for awhile now and a party member recently upgraded his headquarters into a literal underground fortress.
Werner: " You are bad guy but you are not bad guy"
Change the color of the decor, and this guy becomes a legendary benevolent king, uniting varied peoples of the realm.
Notes from a NG Human idiot;
Greetings from lovely Restenford(i've got in-laws visiting on the 'Morrow, so we're a touch busy here.......)!
The DM in this story did a wonderful job showcasing what i personally feel is the most insidious part of Evil: it's an ernest, vivacious person willing to help all those it knows and slowly turns them to their way of thinking...."It's just One Kingdom."(they've now conquered most of the Continent), "It's just A Dark Tower."(they allow instant transportation of all the Kingdom's Shock troopers). Icould go on further, but i think you got my point. I'll leave this note off with something a Roguish friend of mine told me recently:
"Be careful who you trust;The Devil's were once Angels."
May your pantheon ever favor you(especially in these trying times),
Baron Trevelyan of Restenford
"Die a hero, or live long enough to become a villain"
0:42 "distinct lack of tank... partys overwhelmng squishiness" Barbarian "excuse ME?"
This is probably one of the best ways to make the party into unwitting villains. The only other story I can think of that rivals it is when the DM subtly builds up a climax with a weak necromancer while spreading rumor of a party of bandits, with none of the party ever realizing their the bandits!
I think this is one of my favorite stories on this channel, I truly loved it !
This kind of situation reminds me a lot of an alignment from the Palladium game system: Abberant. An Abberant character, although technically evil, simply has a moral compass that points in a different direction. This person truly believes that everything they do is right, and just, and for the greater good, it's just different from what your standard good alignments would do. Alternatively, this kind of character could hold honor above all things, including morality itself, and if the demands of honor require the worst evil, because of being sworn to serve a demonic master for example, then they might mourn their fate, but they would carry out their orders without hesitation.
Most villains are the heroes of their own stories, but this one takes it to a whole new level.
Best BBEG ever. Kinda reminds me of Dr. Doom, "All I want is the best for my people"
Your eyes in the thumbnail are filled with wonderment and not evil and I love it.
The nat 1 on insight saved the BFFEG. If he rolled high, it's possible that he could have been insulted and banished them from his kingdom. Because he rolled a nat 1, he was able to keep his friendly persona.
As a counterpoint I should mention my lawful evil warlock/assassin, who I have recycled as an npc in my campaigns. He’s an incredibly effective government agent and spy, and comfort in a leadership role.
He’s also a sociopath, but only towards people who deserve it (sort of like Dexter.) He absolutely recruits the party into shady missions, but every one of them has a purpose to further peace in the kingdom he serves.
He also was lawful with a strict, though twisted, moral code. Anyone who proved themselves a friend, he would do everything in his power to protect. Everyone else was an object to be used.
This story is the definition of "you either die a hero or live long enough to become the villan"
no my man is a legend
This is a really great concept for a DnD game- perfectly outlining the idea that in reality, nobody truly considers themselves to be evil or wrong.
A fine example of not judging a book by its cover. Sure he looks like a normal bbeg,with the skulls,black spikey armor,and menacing spires, but he is really just a nice guy who wants the best for those he rules. All Hale Grand Emperor Warner.
He elected just to stick with Emperor because adding grand seemed like overkill.
This DM was a Genius in creating Weirner and making him so genuine
Thank you.
this is a great way of showing how subjective good and evil can be what one could see as "bad" is another's "good" and vice versa
I'd say that this guy is a mixture of Affable Evil and Obliviously Evil, with a touch of Necessarily Evil. He doesn't think that he's Evil, doesn't act Evil, doesn't "kick puppies", tries to help his people, but has to make certain hard choices.
They didn't want to trade so... (Picks up unholy sword) WE ARE GOING CRUSADING!!!
That last line though, Laugh everytime BFFEG! HA
I love that, it’s such a good concept for a campaign
A classic case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Hats off to DM.
I love your voice for the overlord. You do great with these stories.
*in Zangief voice* you are bad guy. But does not mean you are ‘bad guy’. This is great, I really like this story.