Towton: Bows, wind and distance
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- Опубліковано 5 гру 2021
- In 1461 at The Battle of Towton, a decisive victory was won by the Yorkists by using a gale to their advantage to carry their arrows much further than their enemies - great story, but could it be true?
Clearly a strong wind will make a difference, but by how much? I take my bow and shoot one particularly windy morning to find out.
You will find the first Lock Down Longbow vid here - where it all began • CRAZY idea... War bow ... . and the playlist here • The Lockdown "Longbow"
My vid about elevation is here • Distance - Which angle...
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You are interested in battlefield archaeology, Towton or indeed just want to be reminded just how very grim and not at all glamorous a medieval battle was, have a look at "Blood Red Roses" 978-1842170250
You can find Joe Gibbs and his shooting here / joe8gibbs
Will Sherman and his arrows are available here www.medievalarrows.co.uk
Tod never can conceal how much fun he’s having!
It is fascinating and fantastic 😍😍😍
And I do love it - really. I am learning with all of this and understanding more and that thrills me
Why should he?
That's why this is becoming one of my favorite channels...not only is he a craftsman, but the experimental archaeology/history stuff is clearly exciting to him, and I am all in on that stuff. I really enjoy when these guys go out there and demonstrate what was plausible historically, and what was largely myth.
Can you blame him? He's got the dream job. He gets to make stuff, PLUS he gets to play with cool stuff, learn things, and share that learning with others? Dude's got it made and he knows it.
And it's a good thing, it helps him get the message through.
Could this be true? Instead of thinking about it, let's go out and shoot a few arrows to test it. I love that , thank you
One of the best commonly featured features of this channel.
I love how you explain the "lockdown longbow" every single time to silence the haters lol
And the first time viewers.
I appreciate that he generally makes each video complete unto itself. Makes it easier to reference them
I think its great he does it but bad that he has to.
Stephan, it is mostly lie Calvin says. It has been a while since I last made one of these vids so thought a refresher would be good
@@tods_workshop
I think you made a typo: lie instead of like.
I've shot against and with the wind and I can confirm they fly so. much. further. with the tailwind. I've often shot targets against a bit of wind to reduce the chance of my arrows, if missing, flying off dozens of meters out beyond the target into the field where I likely wouldn't find them anymore, and instead hitting more air sooner and thus hitting the ground closer to me. My dad once shot with the wind when I told him shit would fly further and he hit the roof of a shed that was way way beyond where he was looking to hit. Lesson learned. On the other hand, I've never shot for long distance, so this film was quite interesting. Almost 300m is a long way. Thanks for sharing, Tod.
Think the furthesr I've ever shot with my flatbow is 70 Meters
I live quite close to the battle site and have visited a few times. It's incredible to stand there and imagine what happened nearly 600 years ago. I wonder how many horrific injuries occurred in that first volley when no one expected arrows to be reaching them...
The book 'Blood Red Roses' is a a very sobering read and reminder
I'd have just left the server at that point. Terrible map balance.
@@ElZilchoYo Ye you’d think after decades of years of similar events that it’d get patched but nope, damn exploits
@@ElZilchoYo Longbow Archery only seems OP because people don't research the tech tree properly.Go for shortcuts, like Heavy Cavalry and Crossbow, and you are just asking for a schooling.
Love this stuff and Towton always reminds me of a poem by one of my Great, Great ++ Grandfathers John Nicholson 1790-1843
When York and Lancaster enrag’d,
Contended for the crown,
And brothers furiously engag’d
To cut their kindred down;
The flags with roses white and red,
Wav’d wildly on the gale,
And many a noble warrior laid
Deep wounded, cold and pale.
Then devastation, fierce and dread.
Ran frantic in the field
And rage uplifted ev’ry arm,
As all refus’d to yield
Firm as their native rocks the line,---
The terror of their foes;
And on their breast-plates bright did Shine,
In polish’d steel, the rose.
Fantastic poem. Hadnt ever seen it before. Thank you.
Thanks for the video Tod. We carried out some measured and recorded tests at Towton many years ago with Mark Stretton, Joe Gibbs and a few others. I have the data in a file if you would like a copy. At the time Mark (unofficially) broke his world distance record but that was with the wind. It was an interesting days work.
HI Tim,
Thanks and yes of course it would be very interesting
Tod, even the simplest of experiments is still so fun to watch and learn from. Loving these vids!
Thanks - I knew it would make a difference, just not how much and now I do.
If you're shooting for max range into the wind, you ought to aim at a lower angle. For shooting with the wind, it's a higher angle. The change depends on the ratio of wind speed to arrow speed and some fairly easy trigonometry if you make enough assumptions (the same kind of ones that say shooting at 45 degrees is optimal when there's no wind).
EDIT: Decided to do the maths, and the optimal angle = arcsin(w/ sqrt(2) v) + 45
Where arcsin is the inverse of sin, w is the wind speed (positive if shooting into the wind, negative if shooting against) and the answer is in degrees. This isn't going to work for large ratios of w/v, but it's for the simplest model I could think of, but it should give an idea of how big the correction needs to be in the case where the arrow and the wind are strictly coupled. I suspect that all the values below are overestimating the angular deviation for real world applications, but it's a reasonable first guess.
Tod measured the arrow speeds before at ~50 m/s and the windspeed there was around ~15m/s. This means that, in these conditions, for maximum change you should be shooting about ~12 degrees higher (into) or 12 degrees lower (against) the wind than the standard 45 degrees. This would change the range by some ~10% in both cases. As a rough estimate.
EDIT EDIT: If you want a slightly more accurate angle that works for higher windspeeds (but with all the same physical assumptions), then use angle = arccos(r/2 + sqrt(1/2 + (r/2)^2)) where r = w / v. Putting in the same values as above I get angles of 30 degrees and 57 degrees against and into the wind respectively.
Ok nerd. Now give me that lunch money.
You might take this to serious.
@Karel Šlaj maths gets you the job but the sword gets you the women and glory. Enjoy your salary nerd.
Good analysis. But Tod got a range difference of 40% (200m vs. 280m), so even if we're generous and give extra 10% to the guys shooting into the wind, there's still a 30% difference in ranges.
you forgot to account the gravity and friction! 🙊🙊🙊
you know, for a while in the beginning of the vid, I was thinking that this will be some kind of medieval clay pigeon shooting idea. Like launching pumpkins with the trebuchet and trying to hit them inflight with the crossbow bolts/arrows.
Don't give him ideas 😂
Let him challenge Joe Gibbs...
@@tl8211 As an archer, I reckon Joe would easily win. I reckon I'd easily beat myself with my bow than my Crossbow. Dunno why, just seems easier
I am with you Stuart
Again the very best of content on this site!
I think you have probably outdone yourself in this one Tod. This was probably one of your BEST research videos ever in my opinion! And ive watched pretty much all of them. Love your work! 👌
These type of experiments are why we watch you Tod, thank you, keep up the good work!
Another great video, thanks Tod
I love the exploratory science and history you do Tod. Great job!
Marvellous as ever!
Thanks for this Tod!
You're like a kid in a playground, and I mean that as the best possible compliment, because I feel like you're taking me for a ride 😁. Another amazing video, and your enthusiasm is truly contagious!
Nice video! Bows gain draw weight when cold, but they loose efficiency. As a passionate 3D-archer I tested this with different ILF bow limbs (fiberglass/wood, fiberglass/foam, Uukha carbon) last winter. Limbs with the wooden core gain up to 5 lbs in draw weight but lost 3-8% efficiency compared from -12 degrees C to +20 deg. C. I can imagine this affects a fully wooden bow much more!
What's a 3D-archer? Was your choice of sport influenced by your surname?
@@euansmith3699 excellent questions
@@euansmith3699 3D archer is one who shoots at 3D foam targets (usually in rough terrain) instead of standard circle targets in the open field/gym. 3D targets can look like animals to simulate hunting in places where it's illegal with bow and arrow.
@@yajurka Thank you. 👍
@@yajurka exactly!
Can i just say how impressed i am with the sound in this video good job.
Good video Tod! Enjoyed this one. 👌
Just what l wanted, another episode of Medieval Mythbusters. Keep 'em coming!
Brilliant test. What a great idea.
Awesome job, as always!
I wonder if that third arrow ended up in the trees on either side of the trebuchet...
Anyway this was yet another interesting little video so thanks for that :-)
Amazingly, I went back to look for it a couple of days later and someone had placed it back by the treb, so they found it somewhere
@@tods_workshop Amazing how arrows can both manage to vanish mysteriously and turn up again just as mysteriously (Bringing up memories of losing arrows in bogs back in my target shooting days)
@@tods_workshop Can imagine what went through their head, 'how, well obviously it's gotta belong to that nutjob with the trebuchet'
@@tods_workshop What a lovely person :)
@@samarkand1585 I'd have left a note with the arrow. "Hello, my name is Ian, my phone number is 07*********". Any chance you could let me know next time you're going to play with the trebuchet?"
Superbly interesting as always. Thanks!
You bring it to life. Reconstruction archeology is so valuable.
Punchy, short & informative. Love it
Thanks for testing it.
G'day,
A way to think about it is that with the identical Thrust at Launch, the Headwind is added to the Projectile's Airspeed, and as Airspeed doubles Drag SQUARES ; whereas the Tailwind is subtracted from the Projectile's Airspeed.
Assuming a 300 Ft/Second Groundspeed at launch, then into a 30 mph Headwind, the initial Airspeed would be 342.6 Ft/Sec., vs 257.4 Ft/Second when shooting Downwind, so the 85.2 Ft/Second difference in Airspeed carries a major Drag Penalty on the Arrow travelling upwind, while conferring a huge Drag Reduction on the Arrow which (like the Answers, my friend) is blowin' in the wind...
That's whereinat your 40% Range Differential cometh from.
In my humble opinion.
Such is life,
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
I love all of your videos. Thank you for making them - they inform my teaching of Medieval History!
Glad you like them!
Great test ty
Great video!!
"Is it myth about Towton? Uh Maybe.... But it's also true!" That made my day!
love content like this
Nice experiment, thanks for your hard work.
Thanks - appreciated
Even though I couldn't see the flight of the projectiles this was fun to watch and learn with.
Brilliant ,mate
How to make the most of a blustery day!
This wind thing is so cool, there is not a lot of testing/mencheoning about it elsewhere. It whud be interesting to see, how much faster arrows fly when shot from galloping horse back :)
Love your chanel, love from Latvia!
Cool, cool video. Sharing with my D&D group.
I''ll just add this to my collection of neat ideas for battlefield twists in any story I write
Well done..👏
Didn't expect such a difference. +50% range difference is very significant.
I mean, it's +40% range between firing into vs. downwind, so the effect of this wind was more like 20%~ change in distance.
Very cool
I was just a boy during the Battle of Towton but I remember it clearly.
does that mean your farts blow cave bear webs?
I was naught by a fair French Maid at the field of Agincourt; but then, I took an arrow to the knee.
@@euansmith3699 That was a little before my time but my father was there. When that awful 'play' came out, my father boxed Bill Shakespeare's ears for being so inaccurate. We're still banned from the Globe to this day.
@@Cautionary_Tale_Harris 😁😁😁
Interesting video. I've often wondered about the affect of the wind on that day of battle it seems there's some truth in it.
I get so excited when I see your video's... Then I see it's only 5 measly minutes long 🥺... love it all the same Mr Todd ... one of these days I'm going to buy one of your beautiful swords and hang above my bed for home protection lol
Cool video
Best 5 1/2 minutes of my day watching this
Thanks
How do you sound so clear in that kind of wind. Amazing stuff! ^^
That's a huge difference! Way more than I would have guessed. Really goes to show that the tales about Towton are very plausible indeed.
Agreed
Really enjoyable and informative Video. I honestly expected a greater difference
*THAT* was really interesting...
I love the way Tod flies the flag for empiricism. Try things and see what happens!
You can read other peoples speculation or you can hold and feel and taste it yourself and then you know
Entertaining video! As a slingshot/catapult enthusiast it would be interesting to see what the difference would be shooting say a 3/8 or 9.5 mm steel over a chronograph into the wind and then with the wind to see the variance speed just for fun.
Elevation should matter more if you're shooting with or against wind - the reason why you wouldn't want a 45 degrees is air resistance, and air resistance is a force that pushes against the arrow. One way you could look at shooting an arrow against the wind is to consider the wind as just an increase in air resistance, and all the same concerns apply: you want to minimize flight time within reason to give the wind least possible amount of time to affect the arrow.
Another factor is the increased corss-section relative to the wind, an arrow that flies at 45 degrees against horizontal wind has more of a surface area catching that wind than an arrow flying directly into the wind.
Conversely, shooting with the wind could mean you want angle higher than 45 degrees, so that the arrow stays up for a longer amount of time and enjoys more of that wind boost, but it all rather depends on how well a given arrow catches a given wind.
All of that means that we can't even know whether our 80 meter difference was on the high or the low end for what is possible if your archers know how to work with or against the wind. This is one of those pesky "more data is needed" situations, but at least we now have a rough ballpark number.
Also, the "45 degrees for maximum range" is a myth.
"Terminal angle" as it's professionally called varies with ballistic coefficient. For example, M855 62 rain ball, out of a 20 inch, 1-8 twist at 90 degrees weather,80% humidity at sea level shooting north (yes, direction matters thanks to the Coriolis effect) sets terminal angle at 18 degrees.
45 degrees is only most optimal in a total vacuum.
Reading your original post, I assume that if you didn't already know this, you're at least familiar with the physics, but I thought I'd post non the less, hopefully helping someone one day.
@@Ranstone 45 degrees for maximum range is absolutely true if you don't have air resistance, and can be a good approximation otherwise. In this case, arrows do suffer air resistance, but it's far smaller relative to their weight, so 45 degrees is pretty close to what you want.
@@Ranstone Yeah, that discussion was had on Tod's earlier video on crossbow range. Turns out that arrows and bolts are aerodynamically efficient to a point where air resistance is negligible for their speed, and the optimal launch angle is really close to 45 deg.
As for Coriolis effect, some back of the envelope calculations show that at 400 meters with 50 m/s arrow, it drifts by 16 cm, at 200 meters you get 4 cm. At 100 meters, a more reasonable range for shooting at armored people, you get about a centimeter. Compared to an 80 meter difference a wind makes...
We know that period archer targets for distance shooting were a yard by yard square, and the mandatory training at 200 meters used a pole about 50 cm wide. I don't think Coriolis force matters that much in these circumstances.
If it was gusting that day back then, I rekcon the attackers probably shot during the relative calms if possible, while the defenders shot during gusts.
Great video. I wonder if the snow itself would have affected the arrows?
Wind effects on projectiles in flight is something that is difficult to learn, but good to know if you want to be accurate with them. I am curious if the Coriolis effect could be measured with the lockdown longbow if it was shot for the same distance first true east and then true west. I am not certain the result would be big enough to be important, but I am curious nonetheless.
Almost certainly not. The time of flight simply isn't long enough to build up a significant impact.
Using a Coriolis force calculator an arrow at about 250 ft/s, at the latitude of London, would experience a Coriolis effect induced acceleration to the right of 0.02871 ft/s^2. The arrow's unlikely to be aloft for more than 2 seconds - during which in theory Coriolis gives it a lateral displacement of about 0.6 inches. (If you went up to the north pole the acceleration would increase up to 0.03668 ft/s^2)
That's just too small to pick out of all the other confounding factors. For it to have a significant impact you need a projectile going a lot faster for a lot longer (which is Coriolis effect was taken into account by WWII battleships' analog fire control computers)
@@jonathansmith6050 Those arrows are certainly more than 2 sec in the air (by your own numbers, just the ground distance would take 3.5 sec for his furthest shot, even more due to the highly ballistic arc).
Overall, drag and lift will have more of an effect on the accuracy then the Coriolis effect could ever have on such an arrow.
Thank you both. I love the way people here come together and share knowledge. You both just made me very happy.
I feel like you should add a little something like an adjustable protractor or primitive sextant on the side, something that you can set the angle and gives you a horizontal sightline on the side for repeatable results, doesnt have to be complicated., it can even be scribed lines into the stock.
I'd like to see a 3-man bow/xbow. Powered by "Competitive rowing" style pulling with 2 people, and 1 man aiming. It would be devastating, perhaps armor piercing.
Now i wonder why is an arrow in my shoulder blade. :D
When ever I hear _"estimates range up to X"_ I always translate it as _"less than X"_ . That's what it means once you take away the hype.
respectfully that's not a grounbreaking statement, thst' just what "up to" means : given the set conditions and instruments the result should be expected to be WITHIN the X mark.
It is a given that the maximum distance represent exactly that, the best possible result that could be achieved in the given context and thus it is similarly obvious one should normally expect the average value to be in the medium range (or somewhat below the "up to" mark) not in the optimal one.
@@rhuugh6438Of course it's not ground breaking. But giving an upper bound to a quantity in order to amaze us by how large it is, is a common trick, but rather meaningless. Like when Tod said "up to 1% of the adult British population died at Towton". It sounds bold and impressive, but it just means "less than 1%". Would much rather he gave the best guess or a reasonable estimate of the lower bound.
@@QuantumHistorian i mean, still just talking, i still think the same principle applies. I study archeology, and various historical related subjects as part of my accademic , and figure of expression like that are necessary to evaluate different scenario, could have been a less impactfull event in terms of death? sure, but if there are evidence that suggest that said amount of people might have died during said day then the "up to" formula is necessary to consider the different possible scenarios and implication
In answer to Quantum Historian You wrote "When ever I hear "estimates range up to X" I always translate it as "less than X" . That's what it means once you take away the hype."
I get what you are saying, however I carefully paced out the range with measured paces and calculated the conversion to meters and then told the truth. The point of this whole project is to tell the truth of what I do and observe; anything else is a waste of mine and your time.
In response to Quantum Historian. Yes the statement 1% is sort of meaningless, but in this context what is the alternative? I could research a number of sources into the population of England at the time, compare with all the historical evidence and estimates and prepare and present the information and that would take me ages, take a while to present that information properly and all to replace a single sentence in a vid. I understand that throwing junk information around wastes all our time but it seems that consensus is 'heading toward 1%' is reasonable if not massively exact
Hey Tod, you ought to do more tests and collect more data, then you could build a statistical model (or ask your local mathematician/statistician/physicist/engineer) to estimate the effects of the various different factors (and their interactions) on range and penetration. Did medieval generals have tables of such information available to them?
The romans had performance and data tables for their siege engines, but I don't think the medieval people did. As regards data quantity, I simply don't have the time, but also with something like this, it would need vast amounts of shooting data and accurate wind speeds to get anything really meaningful
@@tods_workshop I'm also curious how the wind is aloft. My older brother has a story about his college archery class playing a ballistics game- fire mostly up to hit a large circular target on ground not too far away. He said one day it was near calm on the ground but so fast/constant somewhere above that they had to fire behind them (beyond 90 degrees) to hit the target ahead of them. If the wind had suddenly died, someone would have gotten hit in the street behind the class). Ah the 80s. 😜
@@tods_workshop I prefer these more crude tests with fewer data points over more meticulous ones if it means a more variety of tests (which you're very good at). It's not so much about exact data as it is to figure out what affects what, and roughly how important it is. It also shows what might be worth looking deeper into.
I did not know Towton was fought in such a strong wind and had never heard how it affected the archers. Thanks Tod!
Also, what kind of cap is that you are wearing? Looks the sort of thing I could use on a jobsite.
Very interesting test. I would have expected the tail wind to help but not that much
nice to see that even after Tod has been using his own trebuchet (!!!), he still enjoys everything about his work and projects
I could swear at the end I can see the flights of the 3rd arrow behind Todd short and left of the Trebuchet as your looking at it
The white sticks are some sort of agricultural marker the farmer had out
"it's Myth but it's also true.." story of my life...:)
I have a feeling that the 3rd quarrel/bolt/arrow is in one of those bushes back there.
It came back a couple of days later!
Most people: “It’s too windy outside. I’ll stay in.”
Tod: “This is brilliant! I’m getting my crossbow!”
Quite right
Most people: "It's windy out, guess I'll have to wait on that video"
Tod: "I've got an idea!"
Great video! I had assumed it makes a difference, but not that much!
Thanks and that was exactly what happened, but when I set out it was actually a blizzard, but just need as wind, but it did the job.
Best term I've heard ™️
Interesting
Hi, how much could they use a strong crosswind to 'clear' cover & would a different type of fletching be used to suit? : )
Have you tried to ever get a micro camera onto one of those shafts, like incorporate it so it has roughly the same dynamics and weight, but allowing us to see the arrow travel?
Thanks for the cool videos, keep en coming! 😀
There are videos out there showing just that. It's pretty cool to see.
Not yet!
So the Yorkists had the Weather Gage.
It is always a good reminder that we can't never be too sure of what happened in the past, but with this test we at least know that it could have happened.
Now if you excuse me, I need to read about this battle that I never heard of before.
Agreed Jack. That is my point I suppose. We think we know what happened, but so often we make assumptions and this sort of thing just helps us to know what is or could be based in fact
the weather have always had an impact on wars and battles throughout history.
I accidently misread the thumbnail as saying "Shooting A Gale" (dropped the 'in'), and let's just say it made me very conscious of my surroundings all of a sudden in case arrows started falling around me.
Towton II ; Return of The Lockdown Longbow.
Third arrow is... Gone with the wind.
Even though cold weather increases bow draw weight it likely also decreased elasticity, which would mean you would lose some arrow velocity. If you consider the extreme child case where the wood loses almost all flexibility, the draw weight would be very high, bit the ability to spring back would be very low and it wouldn't be able to drive the arrow forward
Majority of the energy from a wood bow is from compression of the belly not the elasticity of the back.
Specific woods like Yew which have differing layers of wood that are better at compression/elasticity do increase the overall performance, as the belly does not need to work as hard to "push" the back.
In theory(my theory) a colder bow with higher draw should shoot further, however a warmer bow of the same draw(as the cold bow) will shoot further still.
@@givemeanameman1 They reportedly would repeatedly pull their bows before shooting. Maybe that was an attempt at getting the bow to a consistent level of draw weight and elasticity?
Bows will be bows
Tod of tods Tod and Tod Tod Todd
Kind of waiting for the comedy gag where the arrow goes up in the air out of frame and then a body of a bird drops in front of the camera....
A thing to think about: Wind is generally faster at some altitude than on the ground. Why? Because the ground is not moving, but the wind is. So there is friction between the wind and the ground. The ground, rocks or rises, on the ground, grass, trees, all slow the wind down at ground level. Get up above tree level and the wind might be 10 MPH or more faster. Obviously that can push the arrows along better or slow them more. I don't know the terrain at Towton, nor the ground cover situation at the time, but it might have been important. It won't invalidate your conclusion, but it could have made the difference more or less than what you saw. From the description you gave, I'm guessing they might have seen more of a difference.
Good testing. My experience with back wind and distance archery was that arrows went wobbly. I thought maybe the wind made the fletching not work so good with stabilizing the arrows,as it might decrease the drag on the back part of the arrow. Maybe it wasn't dead back on wind, maybe my looses weren't good,altough I'm fairly experienced archer,and though sometimes i skrew up the release, that windy time it was consistently happening. Do you have the same experience?
Having a sock or some way to identify the wind direction would have given slightly more context to the left or right ward sway of the arrows :).
I love a myth that could also be true! cheers mate
Shooting starts at 2:43
Shooting downhill has also got to increase the distance...
coincidentally it is really windy outside today
I fought at Towton till i got trebuchet in the knee
I know I saw you get shot. Looked painful.
Do you know about Arbalests? I think these were late, rapid fire crossbows.
That 3rd arrow landed in Lowestoft .I will get it back to you.
But... But... You were standing right next to the trebuchet, with a perfectly valid alibi to use it !😭
Next try how bad left to right the arrows go shooting into a cross wind.
Put some heavy objects in the Trebuchet , like a water jug, microwave, and see how far they go