Friend found you Joppe, all i can say is, fantastic fucking channel mate, some of your videos are incredible. I love how these turned out, the whole process was fascinating to watch, fantastic work my friend.
I think you’ve done a great job here, Joppe! I agree with only covering the membranes with fabric and leaving the wood. Because you’ve gone for a nice simple shape, I think it would look good if you put veneer or vinyl of the same colour as the grills around the edge to really highlight the shape. It might also be nice to design the feet to lift them off the ground just a little for that super clean modern aesthetic :)
thanks for the input George ! :) i myself like the edges, all those layering of birch ply :) i agree about the feet, but i have to make something that is simple, functional and works with the rest of the looks. aah well we will see :) for now my dumbbells work ;)
Sounds fantastic! I think you could definitely sell these. Pricing depends on what you think your time is worth. Don't feel pressured to lower prices beyond what will allow you to live a prosperous life. That all said, between $2-5,000 USD seems reasonable. Most consumers (even the audiophile market) are not actually that discerning and pricing something too low will make people devalue it. You're making something great, own it. Design-wise - Instead of messing with the crossovers too much, make the resonant mode/s of the panel a pleasant one. (to help with that upper/mid bass peak) After watching your videos, it's made me suspect that what goes into optimizing a planar design is not the same as what goes into optimizing a sealed box design. I think with planars, part of what makes them nice is the fact that they are resonant (to a point). If I had to guess you have a pretty intense peak around 100 hz? Getting that first resonant mode of the mylar down to 50, or even 30 hz might resolve many of your crossover problems. Is there anything to stop you from having a different shape, other than a rectangle on the mylar/ foil? Simply making the panel longer to get lower is probably not the answer. Is it possible to do an elliptical foil?, (actually vagina shaped might be good too) with the primary source of tension extending directly up and down the Y axis. That way when you do a calculation, the first fundamental will be easier to find and the standing waves in the panel will be more "full range", since the width will not be held constant. ua-cam.com/video/k2XekDqKOJc/v-deo.html
thank you sir :) hahaha the vagina shaped speaker :) but yeah i know what you mean. well since this is a recording :) its hard to say what is my room mode and what is my panel resonance :) but i can tell you the resonance of the panels is 53hz +- , i actually want it to be slightly higher though. but thats no option anymore for this set :) this panel is not tuned like magnepans are. (might still do some, but it does not all that much when the resonance it already this low, another problem is that tuning knobs also often produce some rattling and screw up my esthetics if people want it without fabric.... i tried using strong tiny magnets but at higher volumes i can hear them :( ) Right now the panels are damped on the back with pieces of velt , to keep the Biggest peak down (it still has some) i have a demo with multiple people on Thursday. see what they think. also see what they do in a room that does not have a room node at 50 hz.. problem with all my builds is that i already think of things that i could do different etc etc and say its just a test. but i somehow never seem to be finished anything that way. so i decided i let allot of other people listen and see what we get. good enough might be good enough. :)
Yes, set them free! I think you are being overly critical of yourself at this point. I hope you know how fun and helpful your channel is to your viewers, even if there arent a million of us. It’s kept me going with my own set of noise makers, which are many miles away from sounding this good.
Last thing that popped into my head - You could try using iron pipe and a pair of flanges for the base. If you get the kind with a black coating on it (sold in hardware stores for gas lines), you can expose the metal using acetone or similar chemical solvent. The rod iron look would go well with the birch ply and have the added weight you are after.
ja snap hem !, en die doet me sterk denken aan apogee :) je kunt maar een paar kanten op als je een ribbon en een planar bass hebt :) , het lijkt al snel op elkaar :)
I like your design choices. A good well thought out loudspeaker. Kind of sounded like my computer speakers. Wait, I was listening to this on my computer speakers. That's why!
true ! problem i had as well was i ordered slightly wrong parts :( so the added resistance made it work :) i will order some new parts and then use a Lpad i think to keep it around 4 ohm. depending on where i end up i can either make the ribbon wider or less magnets :) since i dont need the extra output. who knows :)
I love your dedication, wish you just offered plans for those who wanna DIY themselves, I'm more curious about playing around with speaker configs like you, but I just got into Planar speakers and been going through your collection, probably experiment with your kapton tape speaker recipe and some neodynium magnets.
I Think that its a great mistake, many youtube wiewers make. Trying to show how their hifi system sound...through the very limited sound quality that UA-cam can bring. Its as most often in no use.
well not really, people i hope are aware of it. problem is your not making speakers i guess. but viewers want some result even if it is not representing what the creator build. why the fuck look at a speaker thats finished. ?? says even less. might be looking good. but does it even make sound ? and for most peaple that might nog be a thing since they buy all there drivers and actually only make a cabinet/filter... nothing else..
I have no doubt that your speakers probably sound pretty good. They seem to be well constructed. As dipole and no cabinet noise. So they are probably a pleasure to listen to. And probably a lot better than what even a good UA-cam streamer will be able to reproduce. That was really the only thing I meant with my comment. Good luck with your speaker projects 👍🌝
Love your channel man. Always excited when you post stuff like this. Also, screw the fabric and leave the turns exposed! It looks sexy. The recording sounds 👍! I listened with an amp and some midrange Sennheiser headphones. I'm surprised how much low end I could hear. The top end did not sound too hot to me at all, but it could be the recording...hard to say from here.. It could also be my personal preference because I use some older Klipsch RF-82 ii's with very sensitive horn drivers that really celebrate the highs. But I think that is really what creates an open airy sound, great (low mass) tweaters. IMO, the "lighter" the sensitivity the more "micro" nuances come through like subtle wind wisps, room reverberations of live recordings, or even how real the audience feels during an applause. I.E. could you make out that conversion over the clamor?... How many separate distinct voices could you make out in the crowd?.. etc The more small details the more you "feel" like your in the room. A lot of that information is carried on the highs. There is still debate about if we actually hear over 20k, but are only consciously aware of the signals below that level. It's also really hard to make traditional drivers that are low mass enough to capture that sound..I've tried lol... I think planar speakers may be the best root design to start from due to the low mass of the entire driver. I plan to attempt a similar build at some point. I have so many planar experiments in mind that I want to try. Have you thought about a circular design with low frequency coils in the middle, then mid, high mid, and tweeter on the outside edge? I'm thinking the middle of the mylar will have the lowest tension, and the outside the highest. Rectangular shapes look nice as furniture.. but I think the shape may be what creates the 50hz distortion etc. The mylar is pulled unevenly when the coil is repelled because there are corners as well as uneven sides in the frame. The coil will also repel itself laterally, so there is stretching (albeit small) between each line / pass of wire. Enough voltage and the vertically biased (long) coil would want to burst towards the sides (imagine a lightning strike and the aftermath). A spiral coil would want to expand evenly outward, and benefit from a more even tension across the mylar substrate. For instance, look at cheap Walkman style circular headphone drivers. They have heat moulded plastic with spiraled ripples to allow for even expansion and contraction. They are guiding how the plastic cone stretches, as well as how it returns to form. Planar is very similar and is basically a light weight plastic driver, with that headphone design being a cross between a traditional cone driver and planar. My thoughts are that the speakers shape and mylar tension has a lot to do with the distortion of the different frequencies. The flat surface also has certain constraints for airflow. For instance, the best subwoofers move air efficiency. This is the same reason a speaker exciter cannot drive deep base through a flat foam board, but an oscillating cone driver can permeate a city block. The cone's shape packs the air creating a high pressure zone. Too solve this I've also thought about taking 2 sheets of mylar and bonding/framing their outer edges over a halbach array. (Like a standard magnapan but with a back sheet to seal it up.) Then slightly inflating it to control the exact distance to the magnets as well as even out the tension. It would allow for a slightly convex surface making them less directional sounding. The back sheet wouldn't have a coil, and ould be a back facing passive driver. Or even a rock solid back panel like steel... Different gas mixtures could also have an effect on its dynamics. Sorry, I totally geeked out there. 😆
When we have two or more way open baffle design where tweeter is also open on both sides (like this ribbon tweeter) bass pressure from the woofer will move the tweeter diaphragm (ribbon in this case) 180* out of phase because the pressure differential on either sides of the baffle will try to equalize through the tweeter ribbon, If this is in fact the case, tweeter with high pass filter will behave like it doesn't have a high pass filter and counterintuitively adding some amount of bass to the tweeter should counteract that. You could test this by for example playing some low frequency at high spl and looking if tweeter ribbon is moving, then if it is moving try to add some bass to the tweeter to see if this will counteract that displacement of the ribbon.
Sound very good. Enough low for my taste. Can they handle big dynamic range? Like drum hits and piano keys. But man this baffle is massive. The wife factor says no ;) Needed for strength? I would definitely chamfer the tweeter edges if possible. Overall it looks promising!
depends what kind of dynamics you use in a small home setting :) they wont play 100dB , they are to small for that. even when having such a wide baffle :) i never had a girlfriend that was bothered by such a thing. she did not like the magnepan tymphani 1D to be fair.. but i think thats to much for such a room myself.
@@joppepeelen Agree, in general people don't have very big listening/living rooms I guess. This size will be more than enough. Is it an idea to "fold" the baffle 90 degrees backwards (extended), use them as stands, and so minimize the front surface so they look less massive? I see open baffle designs do that. Filter the 50Hz passively will add a lot of expensive parts. And is it really necessary to enjoy these wunderful sounding speakers? Btw what did your listening audience think of these?
I think they sound terrific. I use OTL triodes that like 8 ohms and love 16 ohms. Could one use an autoformer to bump the impedance up to those levels? Is that something you have played with?
These are the prettiest ones you've made so far, you could even add veneer but I don't think it's necessary. or stain it to get more grain. Btw I can hear "Eunice" raging in the background.
Fantastic looking speaker! Would a wider frame/baffle make any difference to the sound? And yes, you probably should round off the inner edges, I can't wait to buy a pair
Love the look without fabric. I think that fabric would make them look cheap. To cover the problem at the bottom, just use painter's tape and spray black a thin area at the very top and the very bottom to conceal the connections as needed. As for the room acoustics, it is time for you to build a nice set of quadratic diffusers.
@@tiggerblox9402 thanks, well i need to make some more acoustic panels like i did before. its in the planning stage :) but the low end wont be solved even with his builds im afraid.
@@joppepeelen For most frequencies, he uses dispersion rather than absorption. Having used absorption in many situations and in various degrees, I like his approach. For all intents and purposes, what he does is make the room seem bigger. This seems to be a must for open baffle speakers and panels. On the other hand, for frequencies below 80 Hz, he uses pure absorption. He uses a very clever system where the long waves enter a closed cavity (which is different than a Helmholtz resonator). This reduces the velocity while keeping the pressure. He then suspends a cavity filled with activated charcoal within the closed cavity. In other words, he captures the bass energy and prevents it from reflecting into the room. His method seems unique in its efficacy at solving bass problems. Thanks for all your work. You inspire the next generation of speaker builders. My generation was inspired by Speaker Builder and Glass Audio Magazines.
A really good pink panther tune recording can be found - original motion picture soundtrack. Joppe can we have measurements? They look a real great job! I build a great speakersystem which i would like to show but cant upload pictures here. Its not complete planar, its a open baffle system using the NEO's tweeter and mid, with 2 low (SEAS) and sub low(Daytona) sounds awesome! Its a big system, kinda d'appolito. in the future im goin to put another sub woofer on top of it, when im making the nice cabinets. As it is now, looking not nice but ya it was a few times altered during testing using scrap wood panels i had laying around and from an old office desk (heavy mdf 32mm). now that is behind me, i can make the nice looking cabinets.
I believe you're correct in your thoughts regarding tilt, relative to the floor (making it happen is something else). As they launch, propagating into the room, perhaps they'd be best if firing directly forward, perpendicular to the floor. Typically this helps MF/HF energy from being damped or decaying too soon... as it's essentially on the same lateral plane. This scenario is one of the downfalls of big, studio soffit mounted mains... as the primary axial direction is somewhat downward toward the seated ear position. Thus, any potential immersiveness and envelopment contained in MF/HF diffuse soundfield return energy from wall surfaces, may not be fully retained. Of course, even if it's a theoretical ideal, doesn't mean it's easy to achieve. Your efforts are so inspiring to me... what you've pursued... the choices you've made up against the challenges before you.. You're just such a great follow. Best of luck
Thank you sir ! well besides the propegation , it being such a tall tweeter essentially but not a true line source also creates a few wiggles. when the sound of the middle of the ribbon is not at ear height (or getting at ear height). witch is hard even when listening alone... let alone multiple rows haha
Looks sweet! How big are they? Τhe bass sounds a bit undamped...but it may be the room. In case of a subwoofer, you could make it as an integral base that can hold them vertical. Anything lower than 50 Hz would be fine. But it needs to be fast.
It seems you're crossing at maybe 800Hz? I think that would give some pretty horrific lobing in the off-axis response... Moving the ribbon in just a few centimeters closer to the panel and trying to lower the XO by just 10-20% would increase the coherency in the first side wall reflection (and in the off-center listening positions) by quite a lot... If the ribbon can take it. Awesome project, looks good... I'd add in some solid wood edge trim along the edges to contrast the ply. And maybe add some stain and hard-wax oil, like you do on solid wood floors to increase the longevity of the wood.
yeah it would be nice crossing lower ( but i dont think it can handle it. moving them closer is physically not possible because of the size of the magnets :(. maybe i could have gotten away with a wider ribbon, being able to cross lower. ill give it a try anyhow tomorow. since i went back to active. since some things i did not like. i switched out the ribbon today as test to one that still had the paper backing :) its smoother and does not require 9Khz to be trammed. :) i like acoustic solutions intead of filtering :) ofcourse its also less efficient. so maybe ill make a new one tomorow :) who knows :) maybe i can add 0.5mm-1mm in width as well
Hi Joppe! Impressive work and lately also beautiful. I would absolutely not have fabric covering the fantastic membrane, if you start taking orders, maybe leave the fabric just as an option. I have a few comments, based from much experience with small Magnepans, and an intensive co operation with the late Steen Duelund. 1. I think that many of your "problems" do not come from the speakers at all, but from having a listening room that has no diffusors, especially the wall behind the speakers will make a mess in many frequencys. Just a couple of small wall carpets will make a big improvement. 2. In the small gap between the big membrane and the frame, you should add some soft felt. And it must touch the membrane. Becouse the membrane will get return vibrations from all around where it is attached to he frame. A litte strip of soft felt, will dampen this before it gets back to the visual membrane. 3. Your extreme detailled membranes will clearly show the quality of the crossover parts. Use a top resistor for the tweeter, or at least remove the white ceramic shit from it by careful hammering it. 4. Hold your hand on the back plate and check if it vibrates. If yes, add some 2mm car-door dampening material in 6-8mm. wide strips. 5. Everything will be better if they play from 80Hz and up. A small closed sub, like the new KEF which is suprisingly good, will be enough in the botton. 6. In my experience, the felt you use on the back plate is good! The light nivau dampening makes the back radiation more correct as "ambient" function. And reduces back wall influence. 7. The optimal posision will probately be vertical, and not tilted back. And even better if raised 10-15 cm. up from the floor. 8. Maybe you can fix the resonant peaks you use the felt for now, by doing what Magnepan does. Even if the membrane they use ig mush stiffer and heavier then your beautys! They attach the membrane in 3-5, Ø10mm. points near the middle to the back plate. Maybe you could make small "support pints" from felt that support the membrane just from behind. Then the membranes resonances probably will be damped. Maby you know all this things, but hopefully some of it can be a little inspiration to you. Keep up the good work!
Thanks m8 for the long reply ! I try to explain what i think about some of the options or how i do it. 1. damping the room etc does miracles. but most of the things i address , like not being a real line source, diffraction etc, remains pure physical problems that cannot be solved except making them larger or tiny :) 2. the small gap from the frames dont need damping i think. (i know some push pull planars have that, but in this case i would press the mylar closer to the magnets) the mylar itself needs actual damping directly of the transition to spacer or just before. often i use a piece of thick gaffer for that only on top of where it is glued on the spacers of the frame (transision from spacer to free hanging mylar). the reflected sound from the gap of the frame would have such high frequencies (just looking at the size of the gap and the corresponding wavelength.) it wont matter much since the whole panel does not emit the corresponding frequency. 3. im no crossover guru so thats the hard part. but esoteric parts or tweaks i do not trust without a proof in measurement. i would not know why a resistor with or without ceramic would sound different. if it even does. 4. the backplate will vibrate, i would like to tame it a bit more, but it will always have some vibrations in the end. 5. totally agree. it would be better. although i like them fullrange as well, by crossing at 80-100 you get rid of majority of the distortion the panels creates. (dont own a sub :)) 6. thanks :) 7.I agree! , although raising them from the floor like some magnepan rises etc... i would advice not to do it with leaving room between speaker and floor. it screws up the fact it uses the floor as an endless baffle increasing the low end output. ideally they should be longer to get the middle of the panel at ear height. or put it on a sub to achieve the same. 8 well the tuning knobs from magnepan do only spread resonances. but they are still there :) no damping is used except the natural air damping by all the small holes. damping is an easy way to get rid of a part of the resonance without creating new ones. at resonance distortion rises quite a bit. by plitting up the main resonance into 2 more resonances will make the main res lower but also creates more distortion at the new created resonances. it does give a bit more output at theses frequencies so that is nice. in the end the best but most expensive would be bigger panel lower resonance some felt damping and cross to sub before it reaches the resonance. you end up with the lowest distortion. at the costs of extension. Thanks for writing it all down and thinking along !!!
terrible, like all planar speakers of this height im afraid. even de bigger ones i have 150 cm tall have this problem . really need to go longer then that to fix it. but not everyone is willing to have floor to ceiling planars :) so its what it is.
@@sorinsorin8137 yes it helps to get into the middle of the ribbon while seated, it also makes dispersion above the speaker go a bit higher (if that makes sence.) ideally you would like them to stand not tilted and at ear level (middle) even better much longer and ears at middle. anyhow standing in the room does not give you a nice sounding soundstage at the current tilt
Well i hope one step up in sound and specs at least. But maybe i should stop comparisons in prices etc. See what one whould think its worth and see where it goes . I need to focus on finishing them first. This week i take the unfinished ones to a group of audio enthusiasts. See what they think. Balance etc and see how they do in a bigger space
@@joppepeelen Very nice, I found your channel when I was looking to learn a bit how planar magnetic headphones work. You did a great job with your headphones series teaching that. Good luck with this project.
it being a ribbon :) no metal behind it, stronger magnets, lower resonance, lighter foil, smaller in width (better dispersion) and is not sitting on the same foil driven by the low end. thats about it :) negatives would be fragile, further away from the midbass driver more expensive, more work for me :)
i wish he did :) but to the nature of planars and being non symtrical im sure the pink panther (from the webs) does not aprove :) but we can enjoy it anyways :)
Sounds solid, bass is nice, but as you said, cutting it with a servo for deep low would probably do magic. As for the price, not really sure you could price those around 1800 euro. Yes it has its forte, but people can get dynaudio that are trully good from low to top at similar price point.
@@joppepeelen true, but you also need to factor in brand awareness, magnepans have a strong brand name that didn't come cheap, lots of money in marketing and review samples, paid articles etc. Everything affects the cost. Not trying to burst your bubble, but i don't think you can come near the price of a comparable speaker on those points alone.
@@ABC-rh7zc yep, many will have to be sold underpriced to cover expences, not even that, and many have to be given away as review samples and comparisons, just to get the name out there. I understand the labor going in your product joppe, as i myself do so, and it takes years of doing business in minus, and several years just to get to zero expences, to start earning. Raal tweeters are one of the best, if not the best ribbons out there, and they had to do business with loss for a while, and they work oem.
@@ZaklanaCeljadd Sadly they'd have to be 2x as good or half the price. I think they are awesome. Consider licensing the cnc files and instructions for diy outside your region.
yes, i must admit my room is rather bass heavy. so it should be slightly less normally (got a peak at 51 where the recorder is sitting so that helps) when that is removed the whole thing might be to bright right now.
Find someone that will bring a pair of magnepan 1.7 and then compare them. Then you will get and idea what you can sell them for. Lookwise you are in another leage then magnepan
Only just discovered your Great channel. Liked and subscribed.
Really nice to see these , you do great work my friend . It bums me out that I live so far away and cannot hear them or purchase from you .
Friend found you Joppe, all i can say is, fantastic fucking channel mate, some of your videos are incredible. I love how these turned out, the whole process was fascinating to watch, fantastic work my friend.
thank you sir ! hope there is more to come :) there is still over 400 videos alike :) some suck some are ok :)
Wow! Very, very realistic! Condrats!
I think you’ve done a great job here, Joppe!
I agree with only covering the membranes with fabric and leaving the wood. Because you’ve gone for a nice simple shape, I think it would look good if you put veneer or vinyl of the same colour as the grills around the edge to really highlight the shape. It might also be nice to design the feet to lift them off the ground just a little for that super clean modern aesthetic :)
thanks for the input George ! :) i myself like the edges, all those layering of birch ply :) i agree about the feet, but i have to make something that is simple, functional and works with the rest of the looks. aah well we will see :) for now my dumbbells work ;)
Thwy sound great!! Now, how much for a pair?
They were sold to a friend , never came up with a commercial price
Sounds fantastic! I think you could definitely sell these. Pricing depends on what you think your time is worth. Don't feel pressured to lower prices beyond what will allow you to live a prosperous life. That all said, between $2-5,000 USD seems reasonable. Most consumers (even the audiophile market) are not actually that discerning and pricing something too low will make people devalue it. You're making something great, own it.
Design-wise - Instead of messing with the crossovers too much, make the resonant mode/s of the panel a pleasant one. (to help with that upper/mid bass peak) After watching your videos, it's made me suspect that what goes into optimizing a planar design is not the same as what goes into optimizing a sealed box design. I think with planars, part of what makes them nice is the fact that they are resonant (to a point).
If I had to guess you have a pretty intense peak around 100 hz? Getting that first resonant mode of the mylar down to 50, or even 30 hz might resolve many of your crossover problems. Is there anything to stop you from having a different shape, other than a rectangle on the mylar/ foil? Simply making the panel longer to get lower is probably not the answer. Is it possible to do an elliptical foil?, (actually vagina shaped might be good too) with the primary source of tension extending directly up and down the Y axis. That way when you do a calculation, the first fundamental will be easier to find and the standing waves in the panel will be more "full range", since the width will not be held constant.
ua-cam.com/video/k2XekDqKOJc/v-deo.html
thank you sir :) hahaha the vagina shaped speaker :) but yeah i know what you mean. well since this is a recording :) its hard to say what is my room mode and what is my panel resonance :) but i can tell you the resonance of the panels is 53hz +- , i actually want it to be slightly higher though. but thats no option anymore for this set :) this panel is not tuned like magnepans are. (might still do some, but it does not all that much when the resonance it already this low, another problem is that tuning knobs also often produce some rattling and screw up my esthetics if people want it without fabric.... i tried using strong tiny magnets but at higher volumes i can hear them :( )
Right now the panels are damped on the back with pieces of velt , to keep the Biggest peak down (it still has some)
i have a demo with multiple people on Thursday. see what they think. also see what they do in a room that does not have a room node at 50 hz.. problem with all my builds is that i already think of things that i could do different etc etc and say its just a test. but i somehow never seem to be finished anything that way. so i decided i let allot of other people listen and see what we get. good enough might be good enough. :)
Yes, set them free! I think you are being overly critical of yourself at this point.
I hope you know how fun and helpful your channel is to your viewers, even if there arent a million of us. It’s kept me going with my own set of noise makers, which are many miles away from sounding this good.
Last thing that popped into my head -
You could try using iron pipe and a pair of flanges for the base. If you get the kind with a black coating on it (sold in hardware stores for gas lines), you can expose the metal using acetone or similar chemical solvent. The rod iron look would go well with the birch ply and have the added weight you are after.
Thank you sir thats realy nice to hear @
Successful!!! You have done a nice job
Ziet er mooi uit, doet me sterk denken aan de La Folia's uit het deense tijdschrift High fidelity.
ja snap hem !, en die doet me sterk denken aan apogee :) je kunt maar een paar kanten op als je een ribbon en een planar bass hebt :) , het lijkt al snel op elkaar :)
La folia. is not steeds te vinden als bouw beschrijving :) erg leuk om te lezen. (vind ik zelf)
Excellent work ma man! Very impressive.
Impressive, good sound quality and the clarity is awesome, I can't imagine if I'm there in person. Good job.
Thank you sir !
Wow!it's incedibile sound ! You are the best !
Incredibile
I like your design choices. A good well thought out loudspeaker. Kind of sounded like my computer speakers. Wait, I was listening to this on my computer speakers. That's why!
haha very true :) they sounded when i watch it also like my computer speakers here ! :) how is that possible ? its magic !!
Put on some headphones 🎧 and stop being a p@#"
@@joppepeelen Great sounding loudspeakers. Well done 👏✔
They sound great! Im in the "don't cover it" camp -- besides, why damp it if you are already padding the tweeter?
you can maybe add a parrallel reisitor L-pad thingy to fix the extra padding for the highs, they are already really nice tho!
true ! problem i had as well was i ordered slightly wrong parts :( so the added resistance made it work :) i will order some new parts and then use a Lpad i think to keep it around 4 ohm. depending on where i end up i can either make the ribbon wider or less magnets :) since i dont need the extra output. who knows :)
They sound great! Good workmanship too! Like the look.
We're getting closer to a sellable product. It was a fun to see how it was born. I agree that lower high freqs are too bright.
I love your dedication, wish you just offered plans for those who wanna DIY themselves, I'm more curious about playing around with speaker configs like you, but I just got into Planar speakers and been going through your collection, probably experiment with your kapton tape speaker recipe and some neodynium magnets.
well i dont have compelte plans. but i think there is enough material to make some planars , in video :)
Very nice sound great job on construction too.
- Will make the design available to diy folks?
not sure yet. first have to complete a passive filter :( since it does not fit in the housing currently :(
I Think that its a great mistake, many youtube wiewers make. Trying to show how their hifi system sound...through the very limited sound quality that UA-cam can bring. Its as most often in no use.
well not really, people i hope are aware of it. problem is your not making speakers i guess. but viewers want some result even if it is not representing what the creator build. why the fuck look at a speaker thats finished. ?? says even less. might be looking good. but does it even make sound ? and for most peaple that might nog be a thing since they buy all there drivers and actually only make a cabinet/filter... nothing else..
I have no doubt that your speakers probably sound pretty good. They seem to be well constructed. As dipole and no cabinet noise. So they are probably a pleasure to listen to. And probably a lot better than what even a good UA-cam streamer will be able to reproduce. That was really the only thing I meant with my comment. Good luck with your speaker projects 👍🌝
Love your channel man. Always excited when you post stuff like this.
Also, screw the fabric and leave the turns exposed! It looks sexy.
The recording sounds 👍! I listened with an amp and some midrange Sennheiser headphones. I'm surprised how much low end I could hear. The top end did not sound too hot to me at all, but it could be the recording...hard to say from here.. It could also be my personal preference because I use some older Klipsch RF-82 ii's with very sensitive horn drivers that really celebrate the highs. But I think that is really what creates an open airy sound, great (low mass) tweaters. IMO, the "lighter" the sensitivity the more "micro" nuances come through like subtle wind wisps, room reverberations of live recordings, or even how real the audience feels during an applause. I.E. could you make out that conversion over the clamor?... How many separate distinct voices could you make out in the crowd?.. etc The more small details the more you "feel" like your in the room. A lot of that information is carried on the highs. There is still debate about if we actually hear over 20k, but are only consciously aware of the signals below that level.
It's also really hard to make traditional drivers that are low mass enough to capture that sound..I've tried lol... I think planar speakers may be the best root design to start from due to the low mass of the entire driver.
I plan to attempt a similar build at some point. I have so many planar experiments in mind that I want to try.
Have you thought about a circular design with low frequency coils in the middle, then mid, high mid, and tweeter on the outside edge? I'm thinking the middle of the mylar will have the lowest tension, and the outside the highest.
Rectangular shapes look nice as furniture.. but I think the shape may be what creates the 50hz distortion etc. The mylar is pulled unevenly when the coil is repelled because there are corners as well as uneven sides in the frame.
The coil will also repel itself laterally, so there is stretching (albeit small) between each line / pass of wire. Enough voltage and the vertically biased (long) coil would want to burst towards the sides (imagine a lightning strike and the aftermath). A spiral coil would want to expand evenly outward, and benefit from a more even tension across the mylar substrate.
For instance, look at cheap Walkman style circular headphone drivers. They have heat moulded plastic with spiraled ripples to allow for even expansion and contraction. They are guiding how the plastic cone stretches, as well as how it returns to form. Planar is very similar and is basically a light weight plastic driver, with that headphone design being a cross between a traditional cone driver and planar.
My thoughts are that the speakers shape and mylar tension has a lot to do with the distortion of the different frequencies.
The flat surface also has certain constraints for airflow. For instance, the best subwoofers move air efficiency. This is the same reason a speaker exciter cannot drive deep base through a flat foam board, but an oscillating cone driver can permeate a city block. The cone's shape packs the air creating a high pressure zone.
Too solve this I've also thought about taking 2 sheets of mylar and bonding/framing their outer edges over a halbach array. (Like a standard magnapan but with a back sheet to seal it up.) Then slightly inflating it to control the exact distance to the magnets as well as even out the tension. It would allow for a slightly convex surface making them less directional sounding. The back sheet wouldn't have a coil, and ould be a back facing passive driver. Or even a rock solid back panel like steel... Different gas mixtures could also have an effect on its dynamics.
Sorry, I totally geeked out there. 😆
When we have two or more way open baffle design where tweeter is also open on both sides (like this ribbon tweeter) bass pressure from the woofer will move the tweeter diaphragm (ribbon in this case) 180* out of phase because the pressure differential on either sides of the baffle will try to equalize through the tweeter ribbon, If this is in fact the case, tweeter with high pass filter will behave like it doesn't have a high pass filter and counterintuitively adding some amount of bass to the tweeter should counteract that.
You could test this by for example playing some low frequency at high spl and looking if tweeter ribbon is moving, then if it is moving try to add some bass to the tweeter to see if this will counteract that displacement of the ribbon.
not had that problem yet, maybe i dont move that much air :) but thanks for the tip !
Sound very good. Enough low for my taste. Can they handle big dynamic range? Like drum hits and piano keys. But man this baffle is massive. The wife factor says no ;) Needed for strength? I would definitely chamfer the tweeter edges if possible. Overall it looks promising!
depends what kind of dynamics you use in a small home setting :) they wont play 100dB , they are to small for that. even when having such a wide baffle :) i never had a girlfriend that was bothered by such a thing. she did not like the magnepan tymphani 1D to be fair.. but i think thats to much for such a room myself.
@@joppepeelen Agree, in general people don't have very big listening/living rooms I guess. This size will be more than enough. Is it an idea to "fold" the baffle 90 degrees backwards (extended), use them as stands, and so minimize the front surface so they look less massive? I see open baffle designs do that. Filter the 50Hz passively will add a lot of expensive parts. And is it really necessary to enjoy these wunderful sounding speakers? Btw what did your listening audience think of these?
I think they sound terrific.
I use OTL triodes that like 8 ohms and love 16 ohms. Could one use an autoformer to bump the impedance up to those levels? Is that something you have played with?
i think that would be hard., shooting for 16 ohm could be done though. but effieciency would be lower. since i cant crap in more traces
These are the prettiest ones you've made so far, you could even add veneer but I don't think it's necessary. or stain it to get more grain. Btw I can hear "Eunice" raging in the background.
yes it is windy outside :) to say the least
Fantastic looking speaker! Would a wider frame/baffle make any difference to the sound? And yes, you probably should round off the inner edges, I can't wait to buy a pair
the wider the baffle becomes less of the low en shorts out. so you get a bit more low end :) but diffraction wise things change to.
Love the look without fabric. I think that fabric would make them look cheap.
To cover the problem at the bottom, just use painter's tape and spray black a thin area at the very top and the very bottom to conceal the connections as needed.
As for the room acoustics, it is time for you to build a nice set of quadratic diffusers.
This is the best guy to understand quadratic diffusers: ua-cam.com/users/Acousticfields101
@@tiggerblox9402 thanks, well i need to make some more acoustic panels like i did before. its in the planning stage :) but the low end wont be solved even with his builds im afraid.
@@joppepeelen For most frequencies, he uses dispersion rather than absorption. Having used absorption in many situations and in various degrees, I like his approach. For all intents and purposes, what he does is make the room seem bigger. This seems to be a must for open baffle speakers and panels. On the other hand, for frequencies below 80 Hz, he uses pure absorption. He uses a very clever system where the long waves enter a closed cavity (which is different than a Helmholtz resonator). This reduces the velocity while keeping the pressure. He then suspends a cavity filled with activated charcoal within the closed cavity. In other words, he captures the bass energy and prevents it from reflecting into the room. His method seems unique in its efficacy at solving bass problems.
Thanks for all your work. You inspire the next generation of speaker builders. My generation was inspired by Speaker Builder and Glass Audio Magazines.
A really good pink panther tune recording can be found - original motion picture soundtrack.
Joppe can we have measurements? They look a real great job!
I build a great speakersystem which i would like to show but cant upload pictures here.
Its not complete planar, its a open baffle system using the NEO's tweeter and mid, with 2 low (SEAS) and sub low(Daytona) sounds awesome!
Its a big system, kinda d'appolito. in the future im goin to put another sub woofer on top of it, when im making the nice cabinets. As it is now, looking not nice but ya it was a few times altered during testing using scrap wood panels i had laying around and from an old office desk (heavy mdf 32mm). now that is behind me, i can make the nice looking cabinets.
Great work, and interesting explanation! Panels are notorious for needs massive amounts of power and very large rooms.
I believe you're correct in your thoughts regarding tilt, relative to the floor (making it happen is something else).
As they launch, propagating into the room, perhaps they'd be best if firing directly forward, perpendicular to the floor.
Typically this helps MF/HF energy from being damped or decaying too soon... as it's essentially on the same lateral plane.
This scenario is one of the downfalls of big, studio soffit mounted mains... as the primary axial direction is somewhat downward toward the seated ear position.
Thus, any potential immersiveness and envelopment contained in MF/HF diffuse soundfield return energy from wall surfaces, may not be fully retained.
Of course, even if it's a theoretical ideal, doesn't mean it's easy to achieve.
Your efforts are so inspiring to me... what you've pursued... the choices you've made up against the challenges before you..
You're just such a great follow.
Best of luck
Thank you sir ! well besides the propegation , it being such a tall tweeter essentially but not a true line source also creates a few wiggles. when the sound of the middle of the ribbon is not at ear height (or getting at ear height). witch is hard even when listening alone... let alone multiple rows haha
@@joppepeelen
You've got this...
You're doing great
Keep moving forward
Looks sweet! How big are they? Τhe bass sounds a bit undamped...but it may be the room. In case of a subwoofer, you could make it as an integral base that can hold them vertical. Anything lower than 50 Hz would be fine. But it needs to be fast.
they are around 121 cm high 48 cm wide 3.6cm thick
These don't actually need a subwoofer. But it is Preferential to the listener.
It seems you're crossing at maybe 800Hz? I think that would give some pretty horrific lobing in the off-axis response... Moving the ribbon in just a few centimeters closer to the panel and trying to lower the XO by just 10-20% would increase the coherency in the first side wall reflection (and in the off-center listening positions) by quite a lot... If the ribbon can take it.
Awesome project, looks good... I'd add in some solid wood edge trim along the edges to contrast the ply. And maybe add some stain and hard-wax oil, like you do on solid wood floors to increase the longevity of the wood.
yeah it would be nice crossing lower ( but i dont think it can handle it. moving them closer is physically not possible because of the size of the magnets :(. maybe i could have gotten away with a wider ribbon, being able to cross lower. ill give it a try anyhow tomorow. since i went back to active. since some things i did not like. i switched out the ribbon today as test to one that still had the paper backing :) its smoother and does not require 9Khz to be trammed. :) i like acoustic solutions intead of filtering :) ofcourse its also less efficient. so maybe ill make a new one tomorow :) who knows :) maybe i can add 0.5mm-1mm in width as well
Hi Joppe! Impressive work and lately also beautiful. I would absolutely not have fabric covering the fantastic membrane, if you start taking orders, maybe leave the fabric just as an option. I have a few comments, based from much experience with small Magnepans, and an intensive co operation with the late Steen Duelund.
1. I think that many of your "problems" do not come from the speakers at all, but from having a listening room that has no diffusors, especially the wall behind the speakers will make a mess in many frequencys. Just a couple of small wall carpets will make a big improvement.
2. In the small gap between the big membrane and the frame, you should add some soft felt. And it must touch the membrane. Becouse the membrane will get return vibrations from all around where it is attached to he frame. A litte strip of soft felt, will dampen this before it gets back to the visual membrane.
3. Your extreme detailled membranes will clearly show the quality of the crossover parts. Use a top resistor for the tweeter, or at least remove the white ceramic shit from it by careful hammering it.
4. Hold your hand on the back plate and check if it vibrates. If yes, add some 2mm car-door dampening material in 6-8mm. wide strips.
5. Everything will be better if they play from 80Hz and up. A small closed sub, like the new KEF which is suprisingly good, will be enough in the botton.
6. In my experience, the felt you use on the back plate is good! The light nivau dampening makes the back radiation more correct as "ambient" function. And reduces back wall influence.
7. The optimal posision will probately be vertical, and not tilted back. And even better if raised 10-15 cm. up from the floor.
8. Maybe you can fix the resonant peaks you use the felt for now, by doing what Magnepan does. Even if the membrane they use ig mush stiffer and heavier then your beautys! They attach the membrane in 3-5, Ø10mm. points near the middle to the back plate.
Maybe you could make small "support pints" from felt that support the membrane just from behind.
Then the membranes resonances probably will be damped.
Maby you know all this things, but hopefully some of it can be a little inspiration to you.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks m8 for the long reply !
I try to explain what i think about some of the options or how i do it.
1. damping the room etc does miracles. but most of the things i address , like not being a real line source, diffraction etc, remains pure physical problems that cannot be solved except making them larger or tiny :)
2. the small gap from the frames dont need damping i think. (i know some push pull planars have that, but in this case i would press the mylar closer to the magnets) the mylar itself needs actual damping directly of the transition to spacer or just before. often i use a piece of thick gaffer for that only on top of where it is glued on the spacers of the frame (transision from spacer to free hanging mylar). the reflected sound from the gap of the frame would have such high frequencies (just looking at the size of the gap and the corresponding wavelength.) it wont matter much since the whole panel does not emit the corresponding frequency.
3. im no crossover guru so thats the hard part. but esoteric parts or tweaks i do not trust without a proof in measurement. i would not know why a resistor with or without ceramic would sound different. if it even does.
4. the backplate will vibrate, i would like to tame it a bit more, but it will always have some vibrations in the end.
5. totally agree. it would be better. although i like them fullrange as well, by crossing at 80-100 you get rid of majority of the distortion the panels creates. (dont own a sub :))
6. thanks :)
7.I agree! , although raising them from the floor like some magnepan rises etc... i would advice not to do it with leaving room between speaker and floor. it screws up the fact it uses the floor as an endless baffle increasing the low end output. ideally they should be longer to get the middle of the panel at ear height. or put it on a sub to achieve the same.
8 well the tuning knobs from magnepan do only spread resonances. but they are still there :) no damping is used except the natural air damping by all the small holes. damping is an easy way to get rid of a part of the resonance without creating new ones. at resonance distortion rises quite a bit. by plitting up the main resonance into 2 more resonances will make the main res lower but also creates more distortion at the new created resonances. it does give a bit more output at theses frequencies so that is nice. in the end the best but most expensive would be bigger panel lower resonance some felt damping and cross to sub before it reaches the resonance. you end up with the lowest distortion. at the costs of extension.
Thanks for writing it all down and thinking along !!!
How is the vertical dispersion? Given the fact that the ribbon height is not ideal ( to small ) ?
terrible, like all planar speakers of this height im afraid. even de bigger ones i have 150 cm tall have this problem . really need to go longer then that to fix it. but not everyone is willing to have floor to ceiling planars :) so its what it is.
@@joppepeelen thanks, does the fact that you incline a little bit backwards the panel helps with that? Or no improvement ?
@@sorinsorin8137 yes it helps to get into the middle of the ribbon while seated, it also makes dispersion above the speaker go a bit higher (if that makes sence.) ideally you would like them to stand not tilted and at ear level (middle) even better much longer and ears at middle. anyhow standing in the room does not give you a nice sounding soundstage at the current tilt
Stunning Sound !
And they sound pretty good, I listen to your words through subtitles with translation, but there is no su in this video
This job turned out really nice. Show
thanks they where much work :) to
sold them for peanuts :) but i needed the room :)
Looks great Joppe! How do these sound compared to the Magnepan LRS in your opinium?
no clue, since i never heard the LRS.
Finally been waiting since the pics
Nice, are they competing with the Magnapan LRS? Or do you aim for the more higher segment?
Well i hope one step up in sound and specs at least. But maybe i should stop comparisons in prices etc. See what one whould think its worth and see where it goes . I need to focus on finishing them first. This week i take the unfinished ones to a group of audio enthusiasts. See what they think. Balance etc and see how they do in a bigger space
@@joppepeelen Very nice, I found your channel when I was looking to learn a bit how planar magnetic headphones work. You did a great job with your headphones series teaching that. Good luck with this project.
Very good !
1 word great
Great work!! What is the benefit of the separate ribbon tweeter?
it being a ribbon :) no metal behind it, stronger magnets, lower resonance, lighter foil, smaller in width (better dispersion) and is not sitting on the same foil driven by the low end. thats about it :) negatives would be fragile, further away from the midbass driver more expensive, more work for me :)
The Pink Panther approves
i wish he did :) but to the nature of planars and being non symtrical im sure the pink panther (from the webs) does not aprove :) but we can enjoy it anyways :)
Sounds solid, bass is nice, but as you said, cutting it with a servo for deep low would probably do magic. As for the price, not really sure you could price those around 1800 euro. Yes it has its forte, but people can get dynaudio that are trully good from low to top at similar price point.
well they need to compared to similair speakers i think. so most likely magenpans and other planars :)
@@joppepeelen true, but you also need to factor in brand awareness, magnepans have a strong brand name that didn't come cheap, lots of money in marketing and review samples, paid articles etc. Everything affects the cost. Not trying to burst your bubble, but i don't think you can come near the price of a comparable speaker on those points alone.
@@ZaklanaCeljadd I agree - you need an early adopter price for people taking a gamble on a one-man company.
@@ABC-rh7zc yep, many will have to be sold underpriced to cover expences, not even that, and many have to be given away as review samples and comparisons, just to get the name out there. I understand the labor going in your product joppe, as i myself do so, and it takes years of doing business in minus, and several years just to get to zero expences, to start earning. Raal tweeters are one of the best, if not the best ribbons out there, and they had to do business with loss for a while, and they work oem.
@@ZaklanaCeljadd Sadly they'd have to be 2x as good or half the price.
I think they are awesome. Consider licensing the cnc files and instructions for diy outside your region.
*❌✅ Sounds Awesome 👏😎 _where can I get that Panther Tune my Man‼️*
i dont know :) its one of those weird albums i downloaded once yeaaaaars ago :)
Great, I can live with them, despite the low dbl bass out put, compare to the Caver silver edt..
01:50 and who told you that's not nice to see the curves underneath? Are yoy realizing your Loudspeakers are really stylish the way they are?
thank you, well the problem is they are not exactly the same and top bottom is not symmetrical of what you see of the coil. (it iritates me :)haha)
magnetic frame grille!
AMAZING!!!!…is that bass actually coming from the magnapans?!?
yes, i must admit my room is rather bass heavy. so it should be slightly less normally (got a peak at 51 where the recorder is sitting so that helps) when that is removed the whole thing might be to bright right now.
I want to learn how to build one of these I also love DML speakers as well as Rubanoid speakers and Transitional speaker designs
Sound awesome . Would be great if your were ever interested in selling
i agree, must say that would be the end goal. but i am not sure whats the most interesting for the customer as well for me to produce consistently.
@@joppepeelen where are you located?
Netherlands
Great job man, well done
Job well done
Find someone that will bring a pair of magnepan 1.7 and then compare them. Then you will get and idea what you can sell them for. Lookwise you are in another leage then magnepan
You are a sound Guru Joppe, I love anything you build. Very Impressive ‼️ 🎵🎵 man, you rock.
Muy buen sonido ;o)
Thanks !