pre-empting some potential criticisms here. Sure, the concept of this process is fine to teach. It's a methodical way to air grievances, and if that works for you and your partner, great. The question, though, is what the video *actually* teaches, the sort of behaviors it's meaningfully encouraging. In other words, i don't think it's just a tiktok about the communication process, it's also a titkok about weaponizing that process. Just to rephrase in a more simple way, this is a video meant to model healthy communication. And it doesn’t.
I think the weaponization is a big thing that people underestimate. Abusive partners (usually men) tend to be extremely aware of communication strategies like this and they are experts at hiding behind them similar to how a bureaucrat hides behind their bureaucracy. The abusive partner can often utilize these pseudo counselling methods to deflect blame, gaslight their partner and most importantly maintain a position of power in the relationship. That's what we see on display in this TikTok. The man is confronted with a problem where he is clearly in the wrong, he maneuvers his way back into a position of power and then he exerts that power in the most obnoxious way possible by forcing his partner to recite his own words back to him as if she's a child. Her immediate instinct to back down also suggests that she's completely dejected when it comes to direct confrontations because she knows she won't ever get through to him. This is what an abusive relationship looks like.
If he just explained to the camera how to better communicate without using aggressive language, I feel like it would be fine. But the way this is set up with this scripted scenario with him talking down to his partner like a child is so strange
I don't think so. I like that my friends and partners can yell at me. I know they don't mean it so if it is not a habit just calm them down make them a drink and talk about it. Take out the trash as a couple no matter how stupid that sounds to you. Ask if something upset them. If you do this and they are not really yelling at you they can talk about whatever it was, perhaps they had a headache or someone cut them off in traffic, or just their boss was being a jackass. Now they can tell you, they are less angry, and you are the reason. You are their partner, if they are mad at you you simply are the problem. If not _and that is the most likely case_ they can talk it out with you and that builds your relationship.
Reminds me of scenes from god's not dead. Probably seemed reasonable to the person making the tiktok but is completely disconnected from how people talk/should talk to each other in reality
RE: the "Men are From Mars" quote. I wonder if this same advice would be given to a man. Like, if this wife started neglecting her household chores, stopped cooking meals, going shopping, etc. would the husband just be told to suck it up, never criticize, and only compliment her?
What really gets me is the weird clinical feeling of the "non-violent" conversation. Not only does it only really serve to shift the blame from the woman to the man, but it also divorces the conversation from any sort of natural feeling. It feels like a tutorial video for a voice-commanded machine. People just don't talk like this, and doing so is probably going to damage any relationship you're in in far deeper and longer lasting ways than if you just speak honestly.
I think it isn't meant to be seen as a literal conversation. It starts with the "bad example," and explains what's wrong with it, and presents a "healthy alternative," going through it step by step and explaining how it's better. The problem comes when all of the explanation is done in-universe. The TikTok lands in a weird uncanny valley between tutorial and skit, and that's a big part of why we hate it so much, I think
@@comp.lex4It's not just this video though. There is endless content in non-violent communication, self-help, gentle parenting, enthusiastic consent, etc spaces online that seems to be incapable of giving actual examples or modelling in a way that doesn't make everything sound like a form mandated by an HR department. I'm not saying these things are bad but I am saying that people are very bad at modelling how to do them in realistic scenarios while maintaining the affect of an actual human, and that's a problem on multiple levels.
I was actually taught a similar style of communication to this in college but it was specifically in the context of preparing to become a social worker. There is actually a lot of very good advice there when it comes to communication. It's primarily about expressing your expectations in a way that's going to be understood by the recipient and won't cause them to become defensive and stop listening. The way I was taught it the most important parts were: -clearly stating the thing you need to be changed in clear behavioral terms (so "the trash is still in the bin. You haven't taken it out" is good) -clearly stating the agreement or expectation that was violated by the displeasing action (so there should have also been a "you have agreed to take out the trash this morning" or a "keeping the trash can empty is an important part of caring for our shared space and I need you to share this responsibility") -there could also be an expression of what this issue is causing you to feel but I've been told specifically to skip this step in a professional context -lastly to very clearly and behaviorally state what you expect to be done to remedy the situation (like "I need you to take out the trash right now and to also do it when it becomes full again in the future" it's very important to be as specific as possible here so phrases like "clean your room" aren't great and ones like "pick up the trash from the floor, make your bed, and vacuum the floor" are much better) It's important to remember that certain conditions can make some expectations more difficulty to meet. From experience I can say that as a person with ADHD I simply don't notice things like full trashcans on my own. In those cases it's better to look for a solution like "I will remind you to check if the trash needs to be taken out in the future" or "I'll help you look for a system to remind you (like sticky notes for example)" Obviously all that only works if we assume the other person is at least willing to work together with you and won't just not listen to you out of spite. Edit: I forgot to mention that there is supposed to also be an establishment of consequences which is also missing in the video (so a "if this continues to happen It will damage our relationship and my trust in you" for example)
“Yes, I request that you please take out the trash next time you see it’s full” Girl he just spat patronizing word soup at you, he doesn’t deserve that from you 😭
This tiktok would work so well if it was the woman explaining to herself these things. Yes, on paper, a lot of what he said is a healthy thought process that when expressing grievances with someone it is helpful to do when effectively communicating. But when he’s both the person that she’s rightfully mad at AND the one in position of power demonstrating the “right” way to express upsetness, it just comes off with an extreme power imbalance that could so easily be avoided
it's so strange because this tiktok is nearing something realistic. on paper this almost sounds like the way I've learned to talk myself through feelings I don't fully understand - what is the source behind these feelings? is there anything I could do to solve the core problem? how does the intensity of my emotions compare to how worried I need to be about fixing this? but the key point is that this is a conversation I have by myself in my head when I'm trying to regulate difficult emotions. not in some attempt to "correct" my initial reaction but rather to understand it and decide what I'm going to do about it. and even THEN the way I think through it on my own sounds so much kinder than it was actually posed in the tiktok, coming from a place of sympathy for myself rather than labeling my initial reaction as "violent" but to pose this as communication you might actually have with another person, to narrate their feelings in an attempt to supposedly help them? not only feels gross but just terribly unhelpful. you can ask someone to clarify what they're upset about but god don't narrate a thought process you're imposing on them
P sure the video is just trying to illustrate the technique by having the man explain the technique, and the woman then demonstrate what he just explained. I don't think they're literally suggesting that you should instruct your partner mid-conversation this way. It comes off clunky and awkward in the video, but I'm fairly certain that was the intent.
@@sockpuppetqueen ok, maybe, but that is worthless. I need an example of how to ACTUALLY implement such a communication technique. It's inherently unnatural, and showing a way to make it smoothly integrated IS the entire point. Do we really need to be told that nagging your partner isn't helpful?
@@sockpuppetqueen I’m like 99% sure Henry is ND (as am I, not invalidating him) and really doesn’t understand how a script like this isn’t literal, but rather a broad stoke thought process. I have a very emotionally sensitive wife and a video like this would help a lot. Not in a verbatim way, not even a little, but in a structural way. I.e. How can I get to the bottom of why she’s belittling me over a full trash can?
@@skeetsmcgrew3282 there's more in-depth explanations out there, but that doesn't mean that super quick illustrations don't have their place for some people. When a tiktok shows, like, a sped-up video of the process of cooking a meal, I don't get mad it isn't a full recipe tutorial. I go "oh, I see, I never thought about roasting my vegetables with those seasonings, sounds tasty" and then maybe check if there's a full recipe linked in the description. Tiktoks are super, super short. Some people find that format of content useful, and some people don't. It's not, like, new to this channel, though- it's an established style of presenting information on the platform. People use it for all kinds of stuff.
I just recently went on An If Books Could Kill binge and watching the original clip IMMEDIATELY reminded me of the Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus episode where the dude says he wasn't at fault for not doing something because his wife asked if he "could" do it instead of 'would' he do it. Like the trash example here is probably just used because it's simple to illustrate this way of communicating, but it totally comes off as "Oh, I *could* take out the trash! I just haven't been asked in the right perfect way to do so... Seems you're not doing this right."
Yup and she’s still supposed to carry the mental load of knowing when to remind him to do all his chores, as if he’s a literal child. Also caring for him like one of her children is not supposed to diminish her sex drive. /s
It seems like he already knows exactly how she feels about the situation but tries to gaslight her into thinking that she has an anger/communication problem. He could have just responded like a normal human being and say, "Sorry, guess I forgot to take out the trash this time." Instead he gets the slightest amount of criticism and rather than admitting any fault he tries to twist this into a lesson where he acts like a parent scolding a child. I guarantee anyone who tries this stupid tactic on their family member/partner/roommate will just add gasoline on the fire.
I think the problem is the way the advice is delivered by the guy. If this guy had the emotional wherewithal to chide her for how she did her request he could have said “sorry I’ll take out the trash” then did that. If this video was set up such that someone gave her the advice and we saw a before and after of it not working when she is mean, and it works when she is not, that would be much better, if a little cheesy.
The vibes are definitely off but the process reminds me of how I was taught to conflict resolve with others in rehab. It seemed like a fine idea at the time.
It IS a fine idea, but the video is clunky, and the idea of one partner teaching this to the other in response to a valid complaint is pretty infuriating. The concept itself works fine in real life, between two partners who are acting as equals, instead of a condescending teacher and a student.
Yeah, they completely sabotage the vibes by having the guy who didn't take out the trash also be the one who defines the protocol for the correct way to tell him to take out the trash. It seems like a conflict of interest.
@@beccak8166 oh that's just the name of that style of communication the video is trying to teach, where you start with an accurate observation, state your feelings, make your request, etc.- nonviolent communication. it's not a specific commentary on the lady in the video
This tiktok doesn't disgust me, it just makes me laugh that the conversation was so weird. I was honestly expecting one of them to either start laughing or the woman to call him out for being so weird.
Its like they applyed the technique for dealing with an agressive violent situation. And they applied it to someone being told they forgot to take out the trash.
I think the core advice is sound when it comes to how to formulate a request in a way that's polite but firmly, but the framing makes it look like he's using a Jedi mind trick on her.
If Books Could Kill is a great podcast! I thought of this right away too. Oh if only you'd said "would you take out the trash" instead of "can you" I would've done it. Like, no you wouldn't.
I agree overall with this, I think if there was an actor playing the partner who failed to take out the trash and the mediator was a third party taking us through the issue it'd be a different vibe entirely. The sentiment that attacking someone verbally for a failure will only put them on the defensive and not accomplish easing your frustration is, I think, a positive idea overall regardless of what gender the failing partner is.
he asks her how she’s feeling but really only uses it to show how “irrational“ she’s being, he does nothing to validate her emotional experience. a simple “I can see why this would upset you because I told you the trash is a chore I would take care of but I have a habit of slacking on it, I’m going to make sure this doesn’t keep happening” would change everything about the situation
LOL. Yeah that TikTok was pretty awkward. NVC is actually a form of conflict resolution developed by a guy named Marshall Rosenberg, an ex military guy who dedicated his life to peacemaking in war torn countries. I highly recommend checking him out, there are quite a few lectures here on UA-cam. NVC I believe has a lot of potential for de-escalating tense situations and I don’t think that TikTok is the best representation of it.
Agreed! The TikTok is so cringe because this is not how NVC works. NVC is about changing your own behavior, not other people's. It's about learning to identify your own needs and feelings (surprisingly difficult). It's about learning to hear other people's needs and feelings even when they aren't stating them explicitly.
I think this would be a good response for a parent child relationship honestly. I got a lot of “always” “never” and “you are” language from my mom growing up and it really destroyed my self esteem for a long time, and my therapists have recommended this communication style for her. However that’s an adult and their kid, not two people of similar age in a romantic relationship.
There are a couple of steps between seeing that the trash hasn't been taken out and just emptying out the trash where the man really doesn't want it to be, but what is shown in this video is neither of those steps.
The video simultaneously demonstrates the basic format of NVC and also how toxic and manipulative people who've picked up some therapy tricks may try to weaponize it!
Analysing myself, i realized that maybe because i am a weird person, or lack social skills or because i have autism. I tend to really talk this way in real life in many situations because i struggle to understand the real intentions and feelings of the person, like i could be honestly divided if she could be implying: i should take the trash now/later/you messed up forever so i'm gonna stop talking to you/i'm trying to be mean to you/i'm offended/ and so on and so on... I really try to ask the person to be slow and very explicit about what are their intentions and what are my thoughts, because i feel like we both can understand/and or enter in an agreement this way
I agree with you, Joel. Watching this is painful because it's obviously staged and they are not good actors, but on top of that, you hit the nail on the head that the man is insisting on this weird unnatural conversation and patronizing his wife, and the woman is just blindly accepting it. If I tried speaking to my wife that way, the fight would just get worse! My suggestion: Dude, take out the trash already, THEN try to talk it over with your wife.
I have been married for 8 years and sometimes I am just wrong and need to own up to it and fix the situation I caused. In those instances frustration from my partner is completely justified and going through a whole exercise of rehashing the entire issue to get it resolved is more childish than expressing frustration. I did not do something I was asked to, something that can be resolved immediately, and insisting I be asked nicely repratedly is ridiculous. Frustration needs to be expressed and each of us needs to demonstrate an ability to complete tasks without requiring the other person to harass us.
The trash is still in the bin, and he's agreed to take the trash out next time he sees it. He's not gone off to take the trash out, and he effectively defer taking out the trash until he looks at the bin.
This is how family therapists teach people to communicate, sans the word violent. But it does come off terribly in this video because of all the reasons you said
this is uhhhh. this is a lot like how you train animals to do stuff, like not even changed a little; except a little doggo can't express "i'm mad the trash has not been put out"
I think what's annoying to me, aside from the whole condescending guidance from the guy who is ultimately at fault, is that it didn't resolve anything. He knew he was supposed to empty that bin, the problem is that he was careless and either forgot or didn't really care. He said he'll do it next time, but realistically nothing has changed. There's no reason he won't be careless again. He's not even acknowledging he did anything really wrong in the first place and trying to come up with something to address that.
I like that he was laying around like a slug in bed watching tv when she confronted him. I say, if your partner talks like that to you, throw them in the bin and take the trash out yourself.
it's bait. Everything on tiktok is designed to get comments, they intentionally make it ridiculous and exaggerated so that people will comment on it saying that it's ridiculous and then argue with eachother about it. There is way more incentive to give intentionally bad advice than good advice on tiktok
god this viscerally reminded me of an activist group i was in a few years ago. the leader was this exact guy - if anyone had issues with him, theyd be subject to an all out interrogation that just intimidated/embarrassed them into letting it go, but because he always had this hippie, soft-spoken, benevolent patriarch energy no one saw it as the controlling bullshit it was. and of course he, a white cishet bloke, was more knowledgeable and virtuous than anyone (especially women) who had any ideas, even people whod spent their whole lives organising actions. bet you anything he’ll start a cult one day
You know, the thing you mentioned in the end of the video reminds me of people saying that protests of any kind are too 'violent' and that we all should just have a civil conversation to convince people in power (who benefit from how things are right now) to make changes. Maybe they'll see how reasonable we are being and just get convinced.
I think the guy is right and subservient wife women need to know their place and respect the man they decide to be subservient towards by being appropriately subservient.
@@camelopardalis84 your wrong? What do you mean it doesn't work. All its suppose to do is talk about someones feelings in a way that doesn't attack other people... which it objectively does? even Joel's pinned comment admits that, which actually makes me fine with this video. the alternative is telling someone that they are annoying you, which automatically makes people defensive. like what do you even mean "It's been known for quite a while that this "I feel/Me need" stuff doesn't work." go the fuck outside.
Ive definitely done similar stuff like this in my relationship and my partner was not fuckin having it. They didn't snap back at me, but after explaining how dismissive that sounds, i was like "oh yeah, that's really not helpful and makes me look like im belittling you to dodge responsibilities". Needless to say, we communicate a lot more effectively these days.
I feel like because of the way the video if framed, with him adressing the feedback his partner, some people wont take the message about how they're "supposed" to communicate non-verbally. They'll instead take his role as the "unemotional, rational man" and tone police their partners. One last weird thing in the video is how it explicitly asks her to consider how the situation makes her feel, but then her emotions are completely absent from the final request. Its like saying "your emotions are just there for you to reflect on inwardly but never express, otherwise thats literally violence".
He’s so incredibly condescending. Maybe she shouldn’t insult him to start off, but he should take the responsibility and take the damn trash out. Yes babe, I was being careless. I’ll work to not do that in the future.
I sort of looked at it from the other perspective of “how to do this thing non-violently” as the onus belonging to the guy… as in, “hey guys, if your partner is coming at you like a normal person frustrated by your lack of action, here is a great way to respond without violence in order to better see her side.” But I guess I could se the narrative going either way.
If she was really mad and frustrated like the very first thing he told her to say was then that conversation would've sounded eay worse cus her tone would be angry
First off, I also don't always believe name calling is a healthy punishment for failing to do a chore. But, she's obviously frustrated because he didn't take out the trash, and he should have just admitted his carelessness, said "sorry", swallowed his pride, and just went and done it, especially if it was his responsibility. He already knew why she was angry. Now he's the one patronizing and controlling her. What's with his "observations, feelings, needs and values" nonsense? Just go take the trash out like a person who shows their own initiative. I like the message of nonviolent communication, but I don't like this failure to accept responsibility.
Man, your hair is really starting to resemble a kind of separate, symbiotic organism to the rest of your head. I wonder if at night, when you're lying down to sleep, if your communication with this eldritch beast - with which you share literal headspace - involves violent or nonviolent communication.
This kind of thing is why a lot of hetero women are bowing out of the dating scene. Bad faith arguments, carrying the mental, and emotional burden of maintaining the relationship. It's not worth it. I'll take my own trash out, sit on my own couch, and have peace. 🤷🏾♀️
The presentation of this is weird and clunky, but this works well when both parties are familiar with the process and good for preventing short term arguments. Less so for ongoing issues. Pretty sure this has been studied a fair amount
The main problem is that real people just dont talk like this, so it feels fake, but to get analytical here, the problem is that the dude basically attacks her being in a heightened emotional state (this state being irritation) as being violent, and because of that fails to examine the reason the real reason that she is upset. The way she begins is, "you've left the trash in the bin *again*, youre so careless!" *again.* she's asked him to take out the trash before, maybe multiple times. The root of her issue is that he doesn't listen and is neglecting his end of the chores. So what it seems like, is that all he's managed to do is successfully swerve the heart of the issue and avoid taking responsibility for his real transgression here, which is a repeated failure to listen and pull his weight. Sure he's promised her that he is going to take the trash out next time, but since they've clearly already had this conversation, who is to say that he will even follow through? This is something that his partner in the scenario doesnt bring up, because he managed to make the conversation about her manner of approach to him, and steered the conversation in a way that suited him best. Whats gonna happen the fourth, fifth and sixth times she walks past the trash and finds it overflowing? How far is her patience supposed to stretch, before she is finally allowed to communicate "violently"? He didnt even go to do the bin right away, he said that he was going to take out the trash, the next time he saw it full, implying that he expects her to take care of it right now. That word "violent" is also pretty hyperbolic. Anyone who has been in a verbally abusive relationship, or even just a stronger than usual argument, knows the kind of animosity that can be considered violent. "You've not taken out the trash again, youre always so careless!" Is not 'violent', its basically an expression of mild but palpable irritation. It probably sucks to be called careless, but on the flipside, maybe if he is constantly neglecting the chores then the comment is justified. Meanwhile this lowering the bar for what constitutes violence, just seems a little gaslighty. The subtext here is basically that his feelings need to be shielded, even when he is blatantly disregarding her feelings through his actions and by dog walking her through her own emotions, he is able to paint the frustration that is evidently owed to him, both as irrational, and as a personal attack. Also his hat. His fucking hat was pissing me off that whole video. Firstly, why are you wearing a hat indoors AND in bed you utter pillock, and secondly that hat dont even look good, Dripless Wonder, you look like a sea captain who also makes artisanal craft beer and won't stop talking about it.
It’s funny how the scenario, created by the OP, as such a misogynistic undertone. The way the woman seem to concede to his word play just to get over it she just repeat after him what He says She feels. I’m sure it’s not intended but the TikTok really does feel demeaning
pre-empting some potential criticisms here. Sure, the concept of this process is fine to teach. It's a methodical way to air grievances, and if that works for you and your partner, great. The question, though, is what the video *actually* teaches, the sort of behaviors it's meaningfully encouraging. In other words, i don't think it's just a tiktok about the communication process, it's also a titkok about weaponizing that process.
Just to rephrase in a more simple way, this is a video meant to model healthy communication. And it doesn’t.
It's too late Joel. No matter how little you are, you can't hide from cancel culture.
I think you’re overthinking it. It’s probably just supposed to be a nice message about healthy communication.
The paternalism is a little weird tho.
I think the weaponization is a big thing that people underestimate. Abusive partners (usually men) tend to be extremely aware of communication strategies like this and they are experts at hiding behind them similar to how a bureaucrat hides behind their bureaucracy. The abusive partner can often utilize these pseudo counselling methods to deflect blame, gaslight their partner and most importantly maintain a position of power in the relationship. That's what we see on display in this TikTok. The man is confronted with a problem where he is clearly in the wrong, he maneuvers his way back into a position of power and then he exerts that power in the most obnoxious way possible by forcing his partner to recite his own words back to him as if she's a child.
Her immediate instinct to back down also suggests that she's completely dejected when it comes to direct confrontations because she knows she won't ever get through to him.
This is what an abusive relationship looks like.
@@warlordofbritannia I don't think the tiktoker is hoping that's what he's teaching. But these sorts of things have a way of instructing people.
@@littlestjoel
It’s such a weird little video either way
If he just explained to the camera how to better communicate without using aggressive language, I feel like it would be fine. But the way this is set up with this scripted scenario with him talking down to his partner like a child is so strange
Yeah I feel like he's supposed to be her thought process, but just looks like a dude being really weird about how his gf is communicating.
Yeah, the video was just poorly conceived
I don't think so. I like that my friends and partners can yell at me. I know they don't mean it so if it is not a habit just calm them down make them a drink and talk about it. Take out the trash as a couple no matter how stupid that sounds to you. Ask if something upset them.
If you do this and they are not really yelling at you they can talk about whatever it was, perhaps they had a headache or someone cut them off in traffic, or just their boss was being a jackass. Now they can tell you, they are less angry, and you are the reason. You are their partner, if they are mad at you you simply are the problem. If not _and that is the most likely case_ they can talk it out with you and that builds your relationship.
Yeah, this entire video could have had a completely different tone if he'd put in a record scratch sound effect and a freeze frame.
Reminds me of scenes from god's not dead. Probably seemed reasonable to the person making the tiktok but is completely disconnected from how people talk/should talk to each other in reality
RE: the "Men are From Mars" quote. I wonder if this same advice would be given to a man. Like, if this wife started neglecting her household chores, stopped cooking meals, going shopping, etc. would the husband just be told to suck it up, never criticize, and only compliment her?
Lol exactly
No because Women are from Venus honey, this doesn't apply to such creatures!!!
@@scooterfifelsa7763 I think you mean *Jupiter* sweaty, to get more stupider.
It would be pretty decent advice, tho. "Just tell her how wonderful she is, and never mention cooking dinner again. Cook it yourself, you lazy f*ck."
I think in that case you get that leaked Steven Crowder emotional abuse clip
This is what steven crowder imagined happened in his head in that CCTV footage of him and his wife
What really gets me is the weird clinical feeling of the "non-violent" conversation. Not only does it only really serve to shift the blame from the woman to the man, but it also divorces the conversation from any sort of natural feeling. It feels like a tutorial video for a voice-commanded machine. People just don't talk like this, and doing so is probably going to damage any relationship you're in in far deeper and longer lasting ways than if you just speak honestly.
I think it isn't meant to be seen as a literal conversation. It starts with the "bad example," and explains what's wrong with it, and presents a "healthy alternative," going through it step by step and explaining how it's better. The problem comes when all of the explanation is done in-universe. The TikTok lands in a weird uncanny valley between tutorial and skit, and that's a big part of why we hate it so much, I think
@@comp.lex4It's not just this video though. There is endless content in non-violent communication, self-help, gentle parenting, enthusiastic consent, etc spaces online that seems to be incapable of giving actual examples or modelling in a way that doesn't make everything sound like a form mandated by an HR department. I'm not saying these things are bad but I am saying that people are very bad at modelling how to do them in realistic scenarios while maintaining the affect of an actual human, and that's a problem on multiple levels.
@@lukehawksbee yeag
I was actually taught a similar style of communication to this in college but it was specifically in the context of preparing to become a social worker.
There is actually a lot of very good advice there when it comes to communication. It's primarily about expressing your expectations in a way that's going to be understood by the recipient and won't cause them to become defensive and stop listening.
The way I was taught it the most important parts were:
-clearly stating the thing you need to be changed in clear behavioral terms (so "the trash is still in the bin. You haven't taken it out" is good)
-clearly stating the agreement or expectation that was violated by the displeasing action (so there should have also been a "you have agreed to take out the trash this morning" or a "keeping the trash can empty is an important part of caring for our shared space and I need you to share this responsibility")
-there could also be an expression of what this issue is causing you to feel but I've been told specifically to skip this step in a professional context
-lastly to very clearly and behaviorally state what you expect to be done to remedy the situation (like "I need you to take out the trash right now and to also do it when it becomes full again in the future" it's very important to be as specific as possible here so phrases like "clean your room" aren't great and ones like "pick up the trash from the floor, make your bed, and vacuum the floor" are much better)
It's important to remember that certain conditions can make some expectations more difficulty to meet. From experience I can say that as a person with ADHD I simply don't notice things like full trashcans on my own. In those cases it's better to look for a solution like "I will remind you to check if the trash needs to be taken out in the future" or "I'll help you look for a system to remind you (like sticky notes for example)"
Obviously all that only works if we assume the other person is at least willing to work together with you and won't just not listen to you out of spite.
Edit: I forgot to mention that there is supposed to also be an establishment of consequences which is also missing in the video (so a "if this continues to happen It will damage our relationship and my trust in you" for example)
You're being ableist to autistic people.
This feels like buzzword soup and I’m not even halfway out
“Yes, I request that you please take out the trash next time you see it’s full” Girl he just spat patronizing word soup at you, he doesn’t deserve that from you 😭
i love eating soup
@@theadamant7125bruh.. god forbid people talk in exaggeratedly civil way to illustrate a lesson about communication..
@@table2.0I sure hope god forbids him
Feels like a textbook for narcissistic people to use
This tiktok would work so well if it was the woman explaining to herself these things. Yes, on paper, a lot of what he said is a healthy thought process that when expressing grievances with someone it is helpful to do when effectively communicating. But when he’s both the person that she’s rightfully mad at AND the one in position of power demonstrating the “right” way to express upsetness, it just comes off with an extreme power imbalance that could so easily be avoided
it's so strange because this tiktok is nearing something realistic. on paper this almost sounds like the way I've learned to talk myself through feelings I don't fully understand - what is the source behind these feelings? is there anything I could do to solve the core problem? how does the intensity of my emotions compare to how worried I need to be about fixing this?
but the key point is that this is a conversation I have by myself in my head when I'm trying to regulate difficult emotions. not in some attempt to "correct" my initial reaction but rather to understand it and decide what I'm going to do about it. and even THEN the way I think through it on my own sounds so much kinder than it was actually posed in the tiktok, coming from a place of sympathy for myself rather than labeling my initial reaction as "violent"
but to pose this as communication you might actually have with another person, to narrate their feelings in an attempt to supposedly help them? not only feels gross but just terribly unhelpful. you can ask someone to clarify what they're upset about but god don't narrate a thought process you're imposing on them
It’s like something from a parallel universe, or an alien trying to imitate human interactions 😂
P sure the video is just trying to illustrate the technique by having the man explain the technique, and the woman then demonstrate what he just explained. I don't think they're literally suggesting that you should instruct your partner mid-conversation this way. It comes off clunky and awkward in the video, but I'm fairly certain that was the intent.
@@sockpuppetqueen ok, maybe, but that is worthless. I need an example of how to ACTUALLY implement such a communication technique. It's inherently unnatural, and showing a way to make it smoothly integrated IS the entire point. Do we really need to be told that nagging your partner isn't helpful?
@@sockpuppetqueen I’m like 99% sure Henry is ND (as am I, not invalidating him) and really doesn’t understand how a script like this isn’t literal, but rather a broad stoke thought process.
I have a very emotionally sensitive wife and a video like this would help a lot. Not in a verbatim way, not even a little, but in a structural way. I.e. How can I get to the bottom of why she’s belittling me over a full trash can?
@@skeetsmcgrew3282 there's more in-depth explanations out there, but that doesn't mean that super quick illustrations don't have their place for some people. When a tiktok shows, like, a sped-up video of the process of cooking a meal, I don't get mad it isn't a full recipe tutorial. I go "oh, I see, I never thought about roasting my vegetables with those seasonings, sounds tasty" and then maybe check if there's a full recipe linked in the description. Tiktoks are super, super short. Some people find that format of content useful, and some people don't. It's not, like, new to this channel, though- it's an established style of presenting information on the platform. People use it for all kinds of stuff.
This is literally how I scold my students who I can’t cuss off lest I get fired lmfao
this is exactly how you talk to an angry child lmao
I don’t know how I feel about the big Joel framing on little Joel channel with little Joel runtime. It’s like some kind of… medium Joel
If you thought that power imbalance is bad, wait til you see the toxic power dynamic between Big Joel and Little Joel!
I just recently went on An If Books Could Kill binge and watching the original clip IMMEDIATELY reminded me of the Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus episode where the dude says he wasn't at fault for not doing something because his wife asked if he "could" do it instead of 'would' he do it. Like the trash example here is probably just used because it's simple to illustrate this way of communicating, but it totally comes off as "Oh, I *could* take out the trash! I just haven't been asked in the right perfect way to do so... Seems you're not doing this right."
Yup and she’s still supposed to carry the mental load of knowing when to remind him to do all his chores, as if he’s a literal child. Also caring for him like one of her children is not supposed to diminish her sex drive. /s
This reminds me of the video I watched recently about how "therapy talk" is manipulative when it is part of ordinary conversation.
Do happen to know the video title? It sounds very interesting!
@@4swordsluver Yes! It was "Is therapy talk gaslighting us?" By Wisecrack
@westvirginiaglutenfreepepp7006 thank you so much!!
It seems like he already knows exactly how she feels about the situation but tries to gaslight her into thinking that she has an anger/communication problem. He could have just responded like a normal human being and say, "Sorry, guess I forgot to take out the trash this time." Instead he gets the slightest amount of criticism and rather than admitting any fault he tries to twist this into a lesson where he acts like a parent scolding a child.
I guarantee anyone who tries this stupid tactic on their family member/partner/roommate will just add gasoline on the fire.
Thanks for making me cringe with another strange tiktok video before going to bed little joel. Appreciate it
Imagine having to tell the person you live with that you “value cleanliness “ like you shouldn’t already be cleaning after yourself
I think the problem is the way the advice is delivered by the guy. If this guy had the emotional wherewithal to chide her for how she did her request he could have said “sorry I’ll take out the trash” then did that. If this video was set up such that someone gave her the advice and we saw a before and after of it not working when she is mean, and it works when she is not, that would be much better, if a little cheesy.
The vibes are definitely off but the process reminds me of how I was taught to conflict resolve with others in rehab. It seemed like a fine idea at the time.
It IS a fine idea, but the video is clunky, and the idea of one partner teaching this to the other in response to a valid complaint is pretty infuriating. The concept itself works fine in real life, between two partners who are acting as equals, instead of a condescending teacher and a student.
Good idea, probably fine intentions….weird execution lol
It was the use of the word "violence" for me. I feel like that way overstates the frustration of the woman at the beginning.
Yeah, they completely sabotage the vibes by having the guy who didn't take out the trash also be the one who defines the protocol for the correct way to tell him to take out the trash. It seems like a conflict of interest.
@@beccak8166 oh that's just the name of that style of communication the video is trying to teach, where you start with an accurate observation, state your feelings, make your request, etc.- nonviolent communication. it's not a specific commentary on the lady in the video
i would rather take out the trash myself than have to deal with this and i think that’s the plan
Unironically just found my new favorite podcast, thank you Joel
This tiktok doesn't disgust me, it just makes me laugh that the conversation was so weird. I was honestly expecting one of them to either start laughing or the woman to call him out for being so weird.
That ticktok seems like gaslighting 101
Its like they applyed the technique for dealing with an agressive violent situation. And they applied it to someone being told they forgot to take out the trash.
of particular note is how he addresses the real issue immediately, meaning he *knew* he didn't take out the trash when he was supposed to
I thought the hangers in the thumbnail were a machine gun and was waiting for the out of nowhere machine gun punchline.
If Books Could Kill is so freaking great. Found out about it from the 5-4 Podcast, another phenomenal podcast that EVERYONE should listen to.
"That hurt my feelings--Now we're both in the wrong."
I think the core advice is sound when it comes to how to formulate a request in a way that's polite but firmly, but the framing makes it look like he's using a Jedi mind trick on her.
If Books Could Kill is a great podcast! I thought of this right away too. Oh if only you'd said "would you take out the trash" instead of "can you" I would've done it. Like, no you wouldn't.
I prefer the silent approach.
1. Make bonfire
2. Send smoke signals
3. Incenerate house because you don't know how to send a smoke signal...😅
I love If Books Could Kill! Cool that you're a listener, I loved hearing the podcast's take and your take on the 5 love languages book.
"anyway, those are my thoughts, 😐" I love the way these videos end. he's such a little guy vibes
Can we all just agree that Henry is our special guy?
I agree overall with this, I think if there was an actor playing the partner who failed to take out the trash and the mediator was a third party taking us through the issue it'd be a different vibe entirely. The sentiment that attacking someone verbally for a failure will only put them on the defensive and not accomplish easing your frustration is, I think, a positive idea overall regardless of what gender the failing partner is.
he asks her how she’s feeling but really only uses it to show how “irrational“ she’s being, he does nothing to validate her emotional experience. a simple “I can see why this would upset you because I told you the trash is a chore I would take care of but I have a habit of slacking on it, I’m going to make sure this doesn’t keep happening” would change everything about the situation
Bro just didn't want to take the trash out and pulled a "Wabbit Season" on her.
If only this hypothetical woman had had a hypothetical rifle.
You have no idea how happy it makes me to see my favorite Goya painting gaining so much popularity these days.
LOL. Yeah that TikTok was pretty awkward. NVC is actually a form of conflict resolution developed by a guy named Marshall Rosenberg, an ex military guy who dedicated his life to peacemaking in war torn countries. I highly recommend checking him out, there are quite a few lectures here on UA-cam. NVC I believe has a lot of potential for de-escalating tense situations and I don’t think that TikTok is the best representation of it.
Agreed! The TikTok is so cringe because this is not how NVC works. NVC is about changing your own behavior, not other people's. It's about learning to identify your own needs and feelings (surprisingly difficult). It's about learning to hear other people's needs and feelings even when they aren't stating them explicitly.
I think this would be a good response for a parent child relationship honestly. I got a lot of “always” “never” and “you are” language from my mom growing up and it really destroyed my self esteem for a long time, and my therapists have recommended this communication style for her. However that’s an adult and their kid, not two people of similar age in a romantic relationship.
Sure seems like he said he would do it and then takes zero responsibility for not doing what he agreed to do.
Words are not violence. Every time you claim they are, you validate those who respond to words with violence.
Please complete a C-835 Request for Waste Management and interfile it in the chore folder.
There are a couple of steps between seeing that the trash hasn't been taken out and just emptying out the trash where the man really doesn't want it to be, but what is shown in this video is neither of those steps.
Recognized both books recommended from If Books Could Kill!!! I second your recommendation they’re fantastic. Great video, I appreciate this analysis!
The video simultaneously demonstrates the basic format of NVC and also how toxic and manipulative people who've picked up some therapy tricks may try to weaponize it!
Analysing myself, i realized that maybe because i am a weird person, or lack social skills or because i have autism. I tend to really talk this way in real life in many situations because i struggle to understand the real intentions and feelings of the person, like i could be honestly divided if she could be implying: i should take the trash now/later/you messed up forever so i'm gonna stop talking to you/i'm trying to be mean to you/i'm offended/ and so on and so on... I really try to ask the person to be slow and very explicit about what are their intentions and what are my thoughts, because i feel like we both can understand/and or enter in an agreement this way
The hard cut at the end of "those are my thoughts" had me giggling a bit too much this morning
I agree with you, Joel. Watching this is painful because it's obviously staged and they are not good actors, but on top of that, you hit the nail on the head that the man is insisting on this weird unnatural conversation and patronizing his wife, and the woman is just blindly accepting it. If I tried speaking to my wife that way, the fight would just get worse! My suggestion: Dude, take out the trash already, THEN try to talk it over with your wife.
I feel like the abrupt ending to this video is an example of violent non-verbal communication.
I have been married for 8 years and sometimes I am just wrong and need to own up to it and fix the situation I caused. In those instances frustration from my partner is completely justified and going through a whole exercise of rehashing the entire issue to get it resolved is more childish than expressing frustration. I did not do something I was asked to, something that can be resolved immediately, and insisting I be asked nicely repratedly is ridiculous. Frustration needs to be expressed and each of us needs to demonstrate an ability to complete tasks without requiring the other person to harass us.
2:27 not to mention wasting so much time for the other person, which could be taken as an aggression or passive aggression in and of itself...
"So...are you going to take out the trash, then?"
"Hey, hey, hey - let's talk about the division of labor in the household."
As someone who has work at customer service/call center, this sounds like a QA interaction, like corpo-speak, not... like humans
The trash is still in the bin, and he's agreed to take the trash out next time he sees it. He's not gone off to take the trash out, and he effectively defer taking out the trash until he looks at the bin.
This is how family therapists teach people to communicate, sans the word violent. But it does come off terribly in this video because of all the reasons you said
"I'm hearing that you feel a lot of shame."
this is uhhhh. this is a lot like how you train animals to do stuff, like not even changed a little; except a little doggo can't express "i'm mad the trash has not been put out"
im becoming genuinley impressed by how crazy your hair is
Bro just take out the trash.
you know what feels like violent communication? not saying bye at the end of a little Joel video
I think what's annoying to me, aside from the whole condescending guidance from the guy who is ultimately at fault, is that it didn't resolve anything. He knew he was supposed to empty that bin, the problem is that he was careless and either forgot or didn't really care. He said he'll do it next time, but realistically nothing has changed. There's no reason he won't be careless again. He's not even acknowledging he did anything really wrong in the first place and trying to come up with something to address that.
And what did she learn from this?
That no amount of talking at the trash is going to make it take itself out 💅
I like that he was laying around like a slug in bed watching tv when she confronted him. I say, if your partner talks like that to you, throw them in the bin and take the trash out yourself.
it's bait. Everything on tiktok is designed to get comments, they intentionally make it ridiculous and exaggerated so that people will comment on it saying that it's ridiculous and then argue with eachother about it. There is way more incentive to give intentionally bad advice than good advice on tiktok
That tiktok is a great example of weaponizing 'therapy speak'.
He was supposed to take out the trash before this whole conversation
"This hypothetical woman here"
- little joel circa 2023
Also, it's pretty normal and healthy to occasionally get frustrated with your partner? That's like, normal I think?
god this viscerally reminded me of an activist group i was in a few years ago. the leader was this exact guy - if anyone had issues with him, theyd be subject to an all out interrogation that just intimidated/embarrassed them into letting it go, but because he always had this hippie, soft-spoken, benevolent patriarch energy no one saw it as the controlling bullshit it was. and of course he, a white cishet bloke, was more knowledgeable and virtuous than anyone (especially women) who had any ideas, even people whod spent their whole lives organising actions. bet you anything he’ll start a cult one day
You've just described at leasts 90% of Swiss social workers in these first three lines (on desktop).
You know, the thing you mentioned in the end of the video reminds me of people saying that protests of any kind are too 'violent' and that we all should just have a civil conversation to convince people in power (who benefit from how things are right now) to make changes. Maybe they'll see how reasonable we are being and just get convinced.
Of course this manipulator would tell her she needs to do something when he literally did not do the thing he was supposed to do. What an asshole.
he should-ve been acting as a couple-s therapist or something, not a partner
I think he needs a nonviolent choice of headwear. That sailor hat is an assault on my spirit.
I think the guy is right and subservient wife women need to know their place and respect the man they decide to be subservient towards by being appropriately subservient.
I can imagine this situation would last, say, 24 hours at most before the woman strangles the man with his own stupid sailor hat.
This looks like a PSA made for aliens about how to behave like a human
Y'all are fucking wild.this TikTok is literally just explaining I feel statements. That's therapy 101
Outdated therapy 101. It's been known for quite a while that this "I feel/Me need" stuff doesn't work.
@@camelopardalis84 your wrong? What do you mean it doesn't work. All its suppose to do is talk about someones feelings in a way that doesn't attack other people... which it objectively does? even Joel's pinned comment admits that, which actually makes me fine with this video.
the alternative is telling someone that they are annoying you, which automatically makes people defensive. like what do you even mean "It's been known for quite a while that this "I feel/Me need" stuff doesn't work." go the fuck outside.
This video feels like a set up too a joke that the dude still hasnt put the trash out
The most disturbing part of this video is how he’s slowly approaching her
If someone ever talked to me like he did, wearing that hat, I would do literal violence.
If Books Could Kill
You'd be bleeding from the brain,
and you'd never read a line again,
if books could kill!
Love that podcast
Ive definitely done similar stuff like this in my relationship and my partner was not fuckin having it. They didn't snap back at me, but after explaining how dismissive that sounds, i was like "oh yeah, that's really not helpful and makes me look like im belittling you to dodge responsibilities".
Needless to say, we communicate a lot more effectively these days.
I appreciate the spirit of little joel and your minimal goodbyes, but this was a bridge too far.
Ah, giving a lecture about not needing lectures
I feel like because of the way the video if framed, with him adressing the feedback his partner, some people wont take the message about how they're "supposed" to communicate non-verbally.
They'll instead take his role as the "unemotional, rational man" and tone police their partners.
One last weird thing in the video is how it explicitly asks her to consider how the situation makes her feel, but then her emotions are completely absent from the final request. Its like saying "your emotions are just there for you to reflect on inwardly but never express, otherwise thats literally violence".
The fact that he uses the word violent makes it feel like gaslighting
He’s so incredibly condescending. Maybe she shouldn’t insult him to start off, but he should take the responsibility and take the damn trash out. Yes babe, I was being careless. I’ll work to not do that in the future.
I sort of looked at it from the other perspective of “how to do this thing non-violently” as the onus belonging to the guy… as in, “hey guys, if your partner is coming at you like a normal person frustrated by your lack of action, here is a great way to respond without violence in order to better see her side.” But I guess I could se the narrative going either way.
If she was really mad and frustrated like the very first thing he told her to say was then that conversation would've sounded eay worse cus her tone would be angry
First off, I also don't always believe name calling is a healthy punishment for failing to do a chore.
But, she's obviously frustrated because he didn't take out the trash, and he should have just admitted his carelessness, said "sorry", swallowed his pride, and just went and done it, especially if it was his responsibility.
He already knew why she was angry. Now he's the one patronizing and controlling her.
What's with his "observations, feelings, needs and values" nonsense?
Just go take the trash out like a person who shows their own initiative.
I like the message of nonviolent communication, but I don't like this failure to accept responsibility.
imagine the guy who sees the og vid and thinks he's got an ace up the sleeve next time his gf tells him to take out the trash
I don’t think you’re supposed to actually model this behaviour
Bet he still never took out the trash.
I love that you listen to if books could kill. I fall asleep to that podcast almost every night. Love those funny guys
Man, your hair is really starting to resemble a kind of separate, symbiotic organism to the rest of your head. I wonder if at night, when you're lying down to sleep, if your communication with this eldritch beast - with which you share literal headspace - involves violent or nonviolent communication.
What he's doing is basically the same stuff Tina was doing in Mr. Fronds Conflict resolution class in Bobs burgers. 'Jocelyn you skank, I hate you!'
Mr. Frond is actually comparatively competent when it comes to people in his position and his type of educational background.
Also no verbal language is horrible. The way he aproveches is hostile.
This kind of thing is why a lot of hetero women are bowing out of the dating scene. Bad faith arguments, carrying the mental, and emotional burden of maintaining the relationship. It's not worth it. I'll take my own trash out, sit on my own couch, and have peace. 🤷🏾♀️
The presentation of this is weird and clunky, but this works well when both parties are familiar with the process and good for preventing short term arguments. Less so for ongoing issues. Pretty sure this has been studied a fair amount
The main problem is that real people just dont talk like this, so it feels fake, but to get analytical here, the problem is that the dude basically attacks her being in a heightened emotional state (this state being irritation) as being violent, and because of that fails to examine the reason the real reason that she is upset. The way she begins is, "you've left the trash in the bin *again*, youre so careless!" *again.* she's asked him to take out the trash before, maybe multiple times. The root of her issue is that he doesn't listen and is neglecting his end of the chores. So what it seems like, is that all he's managed to do is successfully swerve the heart of the issue and avoid taking responsibility for his real transgression here, which is a repeated failure to listen and pull his weight. Sure he's promised her that he is going to take the trash out next time, but since they've clearly already had this conversation, who is to say that he will even follow through? This is something that his partner in the scenario doesnt bring up, because he managed to make the conversation about her manner of approach to him, and steered the conversation in a way that suited him best. Whats gonna happen the fourth, fifth and sixth times she walks past the trash and finds it overflowing? How far is her patience supposed to stretch, before she is finally allowed to communicate "violently"? He didnt even go to do the bin right away, he said that he was going to take out the trash, the next time he saw it full, implying that he expects her to take care of it right now. That word "violent" is also pretty hyperbolic. Anyone who has been in a verbally abusive relationship, or even just a stronger than usual argument, knows the kind of animosity that can be considered violent. "You've not taken out the trash again, youre always so careless!" Is not 'violent', its basically an expression of mild but palpable irritation. It probably sucks to be called careless, but on the flipside, maybe if he is constantly neglecting the chores then the comment is justified. Meanwhile this lowering the bar for what constitutes violence, just seems a little gaslighty. The subtext here is basically that his feelings need to be shielded, even when he is blatantly disregarding her feelings through his actions and by dog walking her through her own emotions, he is able to paint the frustration that is evidently owed to him, both as irrational, and as a personal attack.
Also his hat. His fucking hat was pissing me off that whole video. Firstly, why are you wearing a hat indoors AND in bed you utter pillock, and secondly that hat dont even look good, Dripless Wonder, you look like a sea captain who also makes artisanal craft beer and won't stop talking about it.
It’s funny how the scenario, created by the OP, as such a misogynistic undertone. The way the woman seem to concede to his word play just to get over it she just repeat after him what He says She feels. I’m sure it’s not intended but the TikTok really does feel demeaning