+HoopsandHipHop, first of all, I hope it wasn't me. Secondly, you forgot one small detail. In the 90s, America had gone to war in Iraq. If the Lightning American, from Unova, went to war, it would be in a region we have not seen yet in the middle east. Just a thought.
Does anyone remember the glitch for Pokemon Crystal on how to get Mew and involved picking the female character choosing a right name and resetting it multiple times using multiple names and after you get it to a certain point and got to a certain name the female characters Sprite hair would be colored red instead of blue then after you get your first pulp one you would look out the window when you would pop up and jump in the window at you and Professor Elm so practically in Crystal you're able to get two starter Pokemon your general star that you chose and Mew if you took the time and patience
Even if Kanto wasn't involved, there was definitely a war at some point. X/Y made war canon in the Pokemon world, and if Lt. Surge was lying, I don't think the Pokemon League would be cool with him pretending to be a Veteran to everyone who enters his gym.
Simon the Gallade I agree. I've always thought the war theory pretty interesting so I don't like the idea of it being debunked completely. Sure there might be slightly variation and it might not be exactly the way people originally theorized it to be but there had to be some kind of war somewhere.
As we know there are wars in Pokemon (the war in Unova and the war in Kalos) it's possible that Surge was indeed in a war, now hard to say where it took place; also saying that because Masuda was that about the rival shouldn't be taken to the gym leaders, it would make one think that Blaine wasn't a scientist or Sabrina wasn't a psychic and that they just gave them that dialogue to be more entertaining. Also possible that war between Unova (America) and Kanto (Japan) and Surge is stationed there like how after WW2 us soldiers were stationed in Japan. Also got to think of overall npc population over trainer classes
@@henry7486 wasn't saying in those exact wars of the past, but saying that those examples showed that indeed the Pokemon world had wars and that Surge could have fought in a war (not one of the ancient ones but closer to modern day) and we just don't know when
While I agree with a few of the items listed in this video there are a few things I don't agree with. 1) time frame, this video seems to assume the war happened within the last two or so years, while if we use the player character as a base it is possible the player was born during the war, father left for war as they were born or were still many months pregnant. So the war could possibly have happened 9+ years ago 2) with this timeframe in mind if we look at surge as being possibly in his 30-40 age range, which is not unreasonable it shows he is still in the range of military draft, also possible with the not mentioning of war that people want to forget about it but surge was such a fanatic about keeping military in mind that he boasts about it. 3) now if we look at the 9+ years since the war and look at the pokemon classes we can see that a lot of the 'non Military or criminals' are likely in there 20s now so would have been too young at the time of drafting. On top of that while things like fishermen and bickers aren't military there is something called Hobbies, these could be veterans living out post war doing what they enjoy or just enjoying nature, and if we look at tamers they could be seen as military if we take in to account that pokemon were used, which would likely mean tamers being needed to train pokemon for war. So while I agree with a few points in the video I feel it is a bit too narrow thinking on how time frames and rolls could be used and I had to speak up about this.
I would agree. Lt. Surge would've been around 18-23 when going out to War imo, Surge seems like a character who would have been driven to go out and save his country, but never made it back and supported Kanto instead.
One of Surge's gym trainer's mention a war as well, but he's Surge's subordinate who was under his command during whatever war happened, so if Surge came from Unova, I think the dude would've followed him, as he seemed awful loyal the guy.
I feel the reason why we don't see a lot of these things is because they aren't important to the story. We never see washrooms, but I'm sure they exist. The towns are also kinda small, compared to real towns. Black and White 2 added new towns to Unova, so maybe from a lore perspective, regions are bigger and with more stuff then we see in game.
Jason Birkinshaw it’s a common Japanese design philosophy if it’s not necessarily important to the core story then just don’t include it, if you watch anime and wonder why a 14yo in Japan has their own apartment and parents don’t seem to be around it’s not because that’s a common thing in Japan it’s simply the creators choosing to ignore elements that are not needed for the story. Absentee parents are a huge one we see a lot.
I totally agree. They're not going to elaborate (or even touch on) on points that aren't relevant to the game. Parents are annoying and such a thought is seemingly common within children XD and then really random things like bathrooms and churches and HUMAN doctors and large, developed towns are all things that really do exist, but not necessarily within the game at a DESIGNER'S POINT only, because it would take eons to put that much intricate detail in like, 8-10 towns XD Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist!
Meh. The argument wasnt very substantial. Left out exact numbers of the sprites in Kanto. Also didn't take in effect those unable to join the military and those who may be survivors. Also there are later references to the war in other games and media. The quote also was lame because it was stretched to fit your meaning. You might want to come with more evidence the next time you 'debunk' a theory.
So this war theory is actually one of my favorites. With the limited capabilities of gen 1, the idea that there was a war going on pre game makes the world feel just a little richer. That’s kind of the point to any Pokémon theory. But you did a solid job of debunking it, so good job! However, I think you need to consider Lt Surge’s line a little more. Yeah, sure, it’s a line meant to establish a unique boss character, but it’s not fair just to write it off like that. Are we going to say that Agatha doesn’t know Oak or that Sabrina isn’t psychic, just because they’re lines of text to establish a unique boss character. Of course not, because these characters are a big part of world we’re playing in. Sabrina is psychic, Agatha does know Oak, and Lt Surge was in a war. Even if the creators weren’t thinking if a specific war, it’s established that one happened. Now, it probably wasn’t a Kanto war. Maybe. Absence of evidence doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. But it could have very well been a war in a different region. Unova, you mentioned. Or a region that we never have and never will see. I’m not saying your wrong, heck I actually think you’re right. But you can deny that a war happened when it’s so directly stated in game.
4:42 Shouldn't we count the NPCs as such despite going by their class? Especially because I know for a fact that there is a juggler in the Sliph Co. Building that is part of Team Rocket for some reason. 8:28 And even "in universe". Okay, let's say children are intrusted with Pokémon in Kanto due to the unique circumstances. How does that explain the approach of the other regions that do the very same thing?
@@SolisOfDreams And he wasn't even right! "No one else mentions the war!" uhhhh except the people who talk about how Surge is a war hero and/or the ones who say they literally served under him in battle?
Even though he's comparing trainer classes, there's still good amount of adult males. And the theory is extreme in implying that there are very few adult males in the game. Which is not true.
@@BerriesSan There is no " military characters class" , there is *only* Surge. And yes, there is lots of grunts and theives and bad "classes", *but its not hard to believe that theres EVER such a thing as a city or state/region trope as being corrupted or have high rates of crime. That sort of thing is already a IRL world experience??*
“Lots of other gym leaders that have extreme characters that aren’t plot important!” Proceeds to list Blaine whose scientist character is directly tied to the Mew Two arch, and Giovanni who is THE MAIN MOB BOSS VILLAIN
I don't see anything really wrong with the theory. Some of those trainer classes are more so teenagers and/or unfit for military action, say nerds and maniacs for example. You should also be going by the exact number of each trainer class, that may help or hurt your argument. A game however cannot just throw logic out for the sake of it. That excuse never held water for any form of media. I will also count the gym leaders and the elite four as well as the entire system to be interwoven with the entire political and military sectors. After all you got magical creatures that can cause some serious damage. Why wouldn't they? Even though I believe that it is more so a collective world culture than anything else, it doesn't change the fact that Kanto is unnaturally empty. So something happened whether it be a war or something else.
A few things to argue against, though I do agree with some of the points you make: 1. Conscription means that, unless you are physically incapable (eg. Serious illness, disability, old age), too young, female (well, originally), or a criminal (in prison or fleeing conscription), you must join the military. With as few men as the theory suggests, that would make every single scientist, rocker, biker, bird keeper, and more to be too only kids, teens at the oldest, because none have obvious affiliation with criminals or the military (ok, maybe scientist if you count the Japanese names in gen 1), and there's some he listed that are being generous for being military or criminal, like rocker and black belt, adding even more. This point in the theory then assumes there's either only one survivor that's still in the military, or EVERYONE in the military except Surge died. 2. While its never fun to say there's no lore reasoning to things, only physical reasons, the fact is that a supposed lack of men isn't the only issue with the worldbuilding in gen 1. There's very few houses, and very few adults in general, even including elderly and women. This is also due to technical limitations, because if you try explaining it with lore, you get the logic that either Kanto is full of families with numerous children (which would have to be before any sort of post-war baby boom with the lack of men the theory insists on), or a ridiculous amount of homeless orphans. And homeless people in general when you look at the sparse housing. I mean, Pallet Town alone has twice the population as it has houses, same with nearly every other town. Does this war assume that even the women and elderly are mostly homeless? 3. The theory doesn't take into account suggested explanations that factor in physical limitations. Look at the map and there's many parts of Kanto that are just blocked off from gameplay, as well as a full world (yes, this was true even before we knew about other regions). Being a trainer is confirmed a common thing, so why is a war more likely than them just being in places you can't visit in the game? 4. The gym challenge is literally stated to be a challenge to all trainers to see whom is strongest, set by the current strongest trainers. As for gyms, the games briefly mention that they do change and are decided by facing each other, as shown with the fighting gym. The show explains further, if you want to cross canons The problem with the entire theory is that it tries explaining one lore question using a single line, without considering everything in the game. It tries answering a question that is closely related to other lore issues that it ignores
I agree with tubefan90000 but would also like to add that sure, you cannot completely throw out logic, but because it's fantasy, some things can be just taken at face value. Like how for Dora the explorer, a little girl can just go out into jungles and talk with all the wild animals. Something can just happen BECAUSE it's fiction. We don't need an over explanation. Children can travel around an entire nation in days and have monstrous beings that could annihilate mountains... why??? Just because... Sometimes, we aren't supposed to over think about it. Somethings are meant to be enjoyed rather than explained. Or like how you can just watch tricks without knowing how they are done.
I agree completely. Kanto does come off empty as if something catastrophic happened. I don’t think they’d have Lt. Surge say something about a war and it be false.
Master Brad maybe it's empty because it's an old game made in a very difficult and problematic maybe chaotic working process that was almost not produced in the first place for lack of investment? Pokemon wasn't created peacefully with huge budget and fully supported by one company throughout the entire process. It was already a challenge to have it on the market in the first place. And again He's a foreigner!!! The war he was talking about could totally be elsewhere
Isn't it feasible that in the last 10 years since you/the player were conceived, the war was already over, and Surge is now middle-aged, and all the males who were not eligible for the military are now a decade older? You raise some great points that cannot be denied though. Speaking of the in-world references to our world, couldn't the Pokemon League have systematically changed the world economy over the decades since the moon landing to shift global politics and power to a Pokemon-based economy, and, could it be possible that Alola is the most recent to convert to this global Pokemon enterprise as we contribute to the founding of the Pokemon League there, but also, because of Alola's history and culture of loving Pokemon, it was a prime region to convert to the Pokemon League lifestyle, maybe being parallel to Hawaii becoming part of the USA in real life, and the other regions history could also be the same allegory for American influence in the world, but obviously over a much larger time period. The "war" could have happened in RBY but may not have been as recent as people think and I think between 10-20 years would seem right to encourage a "Scouts" style youth culture of children learning how to fend for themselves and look after others in case of losing their homes to some catastrophe, natural or otherwise. It also stands to reason that Team Rocket was founded by the mob boss as a means of training people in a similar way to the Pokemon League, but without the political and moral red tape, and to teach their associates that life isn't always fair, and to get what you want, sacrifices have to be made, even if it's something you don't want to give up. Perhaps it was Giovanni and Rocket that inspired the other regions "evil" teams to form as we see them, to realise their dreams for a better world by any means available. Also, a war gives the reason that Team Rocket is called Team Rocket, because rockets are a military super weapon based on siege engines like catapults and cannons. A mob in our world usually has access to weapons, usually in unorthodox ways, and, in the Pokemon World, your Pokemon is your weapon. I do agree with everything you said in this video Hoops, but this is a fan theory after all. Although, maybe this was intended but not thought out to much. We do know that Pokemon were going to be tamed by means like whipping because of Sabrina's artwork, and other art from early production. We also know that battles were called fights, which is a lot more aggressive rather than implying the friendly competition we now know the series for. It's food for thought, but we know that Pokemon is far deeper than what is on the surface, especially with dex entries. It's a very scary world.
You are the one taking this too seriously. The whole point of theories like this is to have fun and just understand the world more. You don’t have to get so upset.
I agree with most of your arguments, but you haven't debunked the Lt. Surge fighting a war. a war is quite a stronger thing pointing to Pokémon's world backstory than cockiness being just a trait of the two earlier rivals.
On the idea of entertainment, there is also the gyms themselves. In the anime and event in the remake in Let's Go, we see stadium like seating around many of the gyms implying that people would go watch these matches against their local gym leader and that the league itself is a spectator sport. In addition, each home of your main character has a gaming system, and there is clearly movies or tv programs being broadcasted on the tv implying there is a bigger entertainment industry at work even if it isn't something we directly interact with.
Naw, why try to debunk one of my favorite theories! lol Strictly speaking, bird keepers could be part of war, birds have been used in war to relay messages. Psychics could be part of ESP war, the Pokemon world's MK Ultra. Tamers might be the ones teaching Pokemon in warfare. Dolphins have been attempted used in naval warfare, so maybe fishers send some of their catches to the military.
Lieutenant Surge- "I still remember it like it was yesterday. It was back in the Unova region. I was stationed at Platinum harbor. All of a sudden they came from the sky riding on their Pidgeots! They attacked ruthlessly! My electric Pokemon and I fended them off. We raced down to Diamond Harbor and were able to fend them off there. But alas, the 3rd harbor fell under the attack. Many lives lost that day."
Considering the first gen's connections to the real world (references to America, Russia and India, the Space Shuttle Columbia, etc), I always just assumed he was referencing some real-world war. Given how old Surge looks and the year the original games came out, I always figured he was referring to the Gulf War.
This is the worst theory video I've ever seen (and I've seen Matpat's Sans = Ness video) 1. You use trainer classes, but don't look at the actual populations of each trainer class. 2. You ignore the fact that there are a ton of kid's game's where you play as adult characters (e.g. the various Mario games). 3. Pokémon isn't a fantasy franchise. It's a science fiction franchise (admittedly it is pretty soft science fiction). 4. I'm interested in seeing your theory about how Giovanni is only a crime boss in order for him to stand out, and how Kanto has never had a problem with organized crime. 5. That quote in no way shape or form debunks the Kanto war theory.
You do know there are different amounts of trainers in any given trainer class, right? Also, have you even seen any Pokemon theories on youtube? they are all about looking at obscure details and trying to find any evidence possible. I think Game theory did a good job with there theory.
In the case of the Celadon Game Corner, that was just a ruse for Team Rocket to make more money, so I wouldn't really count that. Otherwise, though, your point on there being forms of entertainment in Kantou is still solid.
There was another person that mentioned the war in surge's Gym. There is a old man there who said he was trained by surge for the war or something along those lines.
Best of luck on your Let's Play. Amusingly enough, I watched a 10 minute video on the theory that you're debunking and I always similarly felt it was unlikely. Here's to the upcoming Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee. Best wishes to you :)
Well there was a war that much is confirmed and all those trainer classes you mentioned are filled with younger males who could of been too young to fight in the war at the time and the few older men could of just been survivors of the war. This theory stands up better than most pokemon theories like the ash being in a coma bullshit.
Honestly even if they did intend ot to be true I don't think they would ever confirm it now. Pokemon is a child friendly franchise so bringing in a topic involving death. Still a good in dept video explaining it not being true.
@@MrInternetMan forget about the largest source of information in the pokemon world and is to be taken as fact? Are you crazy? You cannot disregard something like that.
Well, there was at least two more mentions of Pokémon War in media. First - "Lucario and the Mystery of Mew" movie, there were epic flashbacks Second - plot of X&Y games. AZ's Floette died in war
game theory actually did a cool theory about pokemon go, and mentions this "war" as part of that theory. worth checking out for a different perspective.
well if you guys think so that's your perogative, no use in aruging the merits or lack thereof of a theory, all i did wa merely mention a different yet also well thought out theory. to met with a reply like "worth my poop" is not worth any weight in conversation.
i think it is. they usually use fan theories an try to expand upon them to prove or debunk it, and they've done a fairly good job at it and seeing the amount of time they've invested per theory i can only assume it's a well substantiated claim. your disliking of a particular video doesn't make it a bad video or a video wherein effort wasn't put into it, it just means you dislike it. and as i said, this war was only part of a larger theory about pokemon go possibly being a prequel to gen 1 which is quite compelling. do you also find their how old is ash analysis to be shit as well? or not because it's more logical and less filling in non sequential information as with the pogo theory? do you hate the audible and or visual puns they're so well known for using? or the fact that they link sponsors at the end of the video? is it the video or the person you don't like there's no difference between this video hoopsandhiphop made and one with an opposing theory to it and i just wanted to let him know it exists if he didn't know just to see a different perspective. also, all questions i asked are of a rhetorical nature as i don't intend to reply again and i would ask you not to reply but i know you probably will so i'm just letting you know i likely won't. have a nice day further.
First of all, I will say that some of those trainer classes you named as "Adult male" in the first half, were designed more as teens than adults. However, that doesn't mean I don't agree with you as you put it well on the head when mentioning a good chunk of the items that easily debunk it is simply that it's a fantasy world and the technical limitations of the Gameboy. I mean, people think :O there's only 1 bedroom in the house... umm no, you just can only go to one bedroom in the house, the game's limitations just showed enough of what needed to be done. And you can be all like but the room's the same size as the one below... well need I remind you that the outside of the house is only like 3 squares grids long and 4 high? so How does each of those rooms even fit in there o.O It's really the same thing here. Most of the things come from the limitations of the system and simply the game not being super eqravagant to show every nook and cranny of the world. Also, who said Blue and Daisy are orphans? Or that Red doesn't have a dad? For all we know they could simply be at work or just else where, or simply the programmers didn't feel like messing with adding the characters. Also, Uh… what are you talking about there's hospitals all over the place? Are you talking about that building with the Red Roof? Uh... that's not a hospital.. it's a Pokémon Center. Designed to treat Pokémon... not humans. It's equivalent to a Vet's office. So uh... Yeah.
Alright, jumping in deep with my thoughts on this theory! To Point #1: I hadn't heard anyone claim that it was all adult males in the region; I just thought it was the reason why you and your rival didn't have fathers. That they were advanced battlers that were enlisted due to their skill. I think that circumstantial evidence is cool, but I don't think it really is the focus of the theory. You spend about half the video talking on this point and idk if it's really the focus of the Pokemon War theory. I agree that it would be absurd to claim that this spills over, and generally I find it to be a weaker element of the theory in sum total. To Point #2: About gyms, I personally have never thought they were a part of some military training element (though I collabed with BKT talking about how it might be to protect us against interdimensional threats). I assumed that these gyms were formed after the Pokemon war, not during or before it. The Pokemon War was the precursor to the seemingly "utopic" world of Pokemon that we know and love. To Point #3: The Lt. Surge (the actual juice of the theory): No one said this war was Kanto exclusive. Also some (like myself) believe that the regions did not exist as we knew them during the Pokemon War, and that America might have been a real place beforehand. It is weird that he shows up in Kanto though afterwards. I think it doesn't make sense to discount Lt. Surge's war comment as not happening because that simply does not make sense. Are you suggesting he spouted nonsense? Also, just because this was primarily "flavor text" for Lt. Surge given his character design does not necessarily mean that a war did not happen. They could have had him say something else to make him memorable, such as his military training giving him discipline, etc. I don't think any of the points provided truly "debunk" this theory as false. One last thing I'll say: If Pokemon theorists were to use "game design" as the reason why theories are wrong, it's very unlikely that we'd have any plot or lore related theories at all. The most we'd have are game design theories. What makes theories like this so compelling is that is builds the lore in a way that adds depth to the world. Solid video dude!
While you did a pretty good job debunking it, I think the extended version done by HybridHero and Lumiose Trainer Zac would hold up a lot better than the original one you debunked in your video, so I still somewhat believe it.
Not trying to prove this theory but the npc's in the trainer classes of the age to participate in a war may not have been the necessary age during the war.
For the numbers of class types, that isn’t a good point since it doesn’t take into account the number of members of each trainer class. You fight a lot more lass, youngster, and cool trainers than you do nerd, pokemaniac, or engineer. The cool trainers/ace trainers have always struck me as more teenage than adult, while hikers are definitely adult. Also, there is a lore reason why 10 year olds are sent out into the Pokémon world. It’s tradition (probably leftover from when 10 was considered adult since people died at 30).
🤔 . . . I have my own ‘war theory’. The creators grew up during the Cold War & there were conflicts in Korea & Vietnam, so I doubt there were any actual wars IN Kanto, but . . . 🤷♂️… THAT is the basis to my theory…
I never agreed to the "Great war theory" but I assumed there would be wars throughout pokemon history as the pokemon world mimics ours. And that Surge was a foreigner, maybe a refugee who made his own way to Kanto from a different country and that war kanto never engaged in. I always thought they wrote blue amazingly orphan boy who didn't know how to process his emotions so he was a jerk to people and he was always a head because he pushes himself so in him mind he could say his parents were proud. I always saw him as a sad boi.
I thought the war was between Mystic, Instinct, and Valor to stop the cruel use of grinding Pokémon into candy. Which also explains why rare candies are scattered throughout the region
I think that the protagonists in Kanto & Hoenn are born decades after a major war in the Pokemon Universe. We just do not know with whom. New Mauville in OR/AS and the numerous laboratories in Kanto that experiment on Pokemon (the bending or abandonment of ethics is popular during wartime) also support this idea, in my opinion. The theory treats war as having been recent, but if we think about it as several decades from the adventures of the protagonists, it makes more sense.
Made some great points, I think because I accepted it as fact when I was a kid I never really thought to question it. You should do a series on debunking old/accepted as fact theories
I didn't really have an opinion on this theory originally. I had never seen enough evidence to prove it in my mind. I was waiting for someone to come along with enough evidence to prove it one way or the other. I think you've done a pretty good job of that here. There were a couple of points you made that could've been stronger, but overall, you've done a good job and I now believe this is probably fake.
1.) Even if the male numbers aren't so much reduced, according to the theory, supposedly Kanto won the war, so one could say that Kanto devolped an strategy or a plan that allowed they to lose the less amounts of troops and pokemon. This isn't always the case, but, the point is that is possible. 2.) Respect to the point of being an orphaned kid (also girl if we count FireRed and Leaf Green), the concept is a ''weapon of double blade'', because as we don't see really a dialogue apart from the ones from the Lt. Surge that directly suggest that there was a war, we also don't have info that suggest that there wasn't a war. 3.) As I said in point 1, maybe PEOPLE ARE TRYING to forget the war, this make sense because of the following points: *Remember when you said that ''No one apart from Lt. Surge talks about a ''past war'' ''?. Well, THAT'S ANOTHER DOUBLE BLADED WEAPON, because that could mean that Lt. Surge dislikes the idea of forgetting the conflict and that's why he mentioned it, other explanation could be that as a Lieutenant, he lives from military business, and, in a ''possible creapy way'', he wants to start again hostilities. *As you can see in Gold and Silver, 3 years have passed since Red and Blue. In that períod, certain things happen and one of those is that the only ground border is basically the entrance to the Pokemon League, shared between both regions Kanto and Jotho. *OK, I have to admit that this might sound a little ''hypocrite'' from a certain point of view, but maybe the reason we don't see military outpost, bases and similar stuff is because after the end of the war, people decided to recover creating more hospitals in order to deliver a ''message of prevention'' rather than ''cure''. 4.) Just because a trainer who has the look of an engineer doesn't really means that he can't have participated in a war, maybe when things started the military started working together with civilian companies or they didn't have enough time to design ''military outfits'' for civilian professionals who supported the war's efforts. They could have served in the war and even have their own military outfits, but after the end, they are returning to their normals lifes and, therefore, they are using civilian outfits rather military ones, remember that they want to forget about it. 5. But, forgetting about the war doesn't necessarily means that you must dissolve every type of military forces or even preventive measures, maybe the reason Lt. Surge is the gym leader of a coast city is because is the only way to enter by water to Kanto from Jotho, and, from a defensive standpoint, using electricity against water is very effective, not only you can just electrify water and paralyze (if not kill) everyone, it doesn't matters if is a pokemon or a person, striking down every kind of underwater strategy or using pokemon as assault boats. At least according to science, our bodies are composed of 70-80% of water, and you know the relationship between water and electricity. 6.) Being Lt. Surge from Unova could mean that if a war occcured, there are high chances that Unova worked together alongside Kanto as allies, like when England asked for help to USNA (United States Of North America) in WWII or even, maybe a war occurred, but not mainly in Kanto, but instead on Unova, and Kanto was just another minor battlefront. 7.) There are some buildings being created for the events of Red and Blue and towns and cities seem to be a little small, that could be a hint of material losses in a war. 8.) And even if a war didn't primarily occurred in Kanto, what if the war instead occurred in Kalos, having as allies Kanto and Unova?. I'm saying this because, canonically, there was a war in Kalos, is mentioned directly in Pokemon X and Y, my point is that the main battlefront was Kalos, but eventually the war managed to spread into Kanto or Unova, that could explain in some way why Lt. Surge is on Kanto, because at some time of the war, they needed reinforces and Lt. Surge was among those reinforces offered by Unova to Kanto, I want to belive that although the main battlefront was Kalos, the war stroke even more brutally in corners like Kanto and that could explain why compared to Unova and Kalos it looks weaker as a region. 9.) Why Kanto is well-knowed for having the largest cemetery or sanctuary dedicated to the death and fallen in the Pokemon world?. This is heavily connected to my anterior point and viceversa. Anyway, those were just my thoughts. PD: I don't want to promote violence against your person, but as long reality tells the contrary, you seemed to be ''somewhat upsed'' when communicating your thoughts. Just saying in my opinion.
When you were doing your comparison of the military/organized crime classes to the non, you left out Rockets. So it's a 10-9 ratio, but your point is still valid lol.
Yo hoops is not only lt surge is talking about the war in fire red and leaf green games in lt surges gym is one gentleman who says "I was in military with lt surge" or something like that
@@injetavel279 Arguments ending with lol are surely... good enough... yeah... ... ... WTF is even your question, when you are UNDER a Video debunking it? I mean, hello? ?
@@slevinchannel7589 He's asking the question because the video does a very bad job debunking the theory because it doesn't address the very, very simple question that he's asking. Hope this helps.
I think his categorization of the trainer classes is wrong as well. a lot of the trainer classes he is saying are "adults" look to be at the very oldest early 20's, so they would have been too young to be involved in the war anyway, and when you keep in mind that the pokemon animation style typically depicts characters as older looking (like tell me for a second that you thought Brock looked 15 and Misty looked 10, their official ages), nearly all of the character classes in the game should not be considered "adult" The point is there are nearly zero like 30-45 year old males.
@@theheebs100 I wouldn't say nearly zero. All the hikers come to mind nothing else off the top of my head but it has been a while since I have played the originals.
THANK YOU! I've felt uncomfortable with this theory for some time but I had not taken the time to figure out why. Supports another theory of mine, too!
So I don't know if this theory is true or not but not really convinced by this. You leave out a lot of information that would be helpful (like how many of each trainer class there are), shrug off evidence for the war by simply saying, kids game or fantasy world, we don't have to explain it, and the quote was a huge leap. The only good point I felt was pointing out Surge might be from Unova, which is all fine and good, but I don't see any actual proof of this. Plus even if he was and he fought for Unova, that still doesn't prove Kanto wasn't involved in a war, allies are a thing, it's entirely possible that Kanto and Johto were in a war and Unova was Kanto's ally. That would also explain why he'd be in Kanto in the first place, the war was against Johto and Surge was stationed in Kanto.
I like the video and don't disagree with your conclusion, but I feel like a lot of information is missing. That was probably done because for time, but I'd still like to hear an explanation of some of your categories. I'd like to see which classes you have categorized as "children" "adult men" "adult women" and "elderly." I'd also like to see which classes you would count as being part of the military, part of organized crime, or neither. And finally, I'd like to see how many members there actually are of each trainer class, which I'm sure could be gotten off Bulbapedia or whatever, but isn't as useful without the clarification of your classifications.
If you're going to count the different trainer classes, you should note how common each one is. The war could have ended up to about 10 years ago, which is long enough for non-jingoistic fanatics to stop bringing it up in every conversation. Some of the non-military trainer classes seemed pretty young, could have definitely avoided a draft if the war ended a decade before. Saying they gave characters interesting designs and dialog to make them memorable doesn't mean the characters aren't actually scientists or ninjas or whatever. Maybe the war he fought in took place in Unova, his American influence makes that a possibility. But his referring to it as "*The* War" suggests the war at least had a significant affect in Kanto for Surge to expect a 10 year old boy to understand what he war referring to.
Here is the issue with your de-bunking. Lt. Surge is 34. He talks about the War as though it was a long time ago. let's be conservative and say he was 24 when the war took place, meaning he was in the military for 6 years prior to it taking place (maybe longer since age seems a bit different in the pokemon world. this could have been happening like 20 years ago.....). Based on this concept, individuals would need to be at least 28 to have taken place in the war. Outside of the Hiker and the tamer, the other trainer classes you mention as not being affiliated with a group all look to be young adult age at the oldest. You also need to account for fact that the characters are depicted in a way that makes them look older than they are. I mean, Misty looks like a young woman in the game, but her official age is 10. Brock looks like grown man, but he is supposed to be 15. also, your claim about extrapolating from Masuda's claims about the rival being a jerk to explain how Surge's text was just thrown in characterize him is a pretty large stretch. You really did not do a good putting the argument together.
this theory isnt lame its got way more validity than most poke conspiracies and its kinda cool playing the game and knowing theres a mysterious history to the region and its characters
The great war that was referred to in the X and Y is just the icing on the cake if you look back at mythology involving a lot of the polar opposite legendary Pokemon not a green and a true leader would end up having to put an end to their spat like Kyogre Groudon and Rayquaza it would be easy to sit there and sleep or think using your mind that the wars or war that refer to we're probably more than one and probably through the history that Pokemon used to subdue or put legendary Pokemon at ease or steal them away
Some really good points were made. Every piece of evidence was torn down perfectly. However... that doesn't completely tear down the theory that a war did happen. For all we know, Surge references an actual war he was a part of. A real world war. After all, the Pokemon world is heavily based off of our own.
This video needed to be made! I've always thought this theory was crazy. I mean, I'm all for exploring the lore of the Pokemon world (hence I watch these videos on UA-cam) but it's all been based on one single line of dialogue! Keep up the great work, Hoops :)
Glad that you debunked this theory, Hoops. I also think this is a weak theory of its own because how ridiculous it sounded. I also heard some people somehow connected the 3,000 year old pokémon war from X & Y to this theory which makes Lt. Surge 3,000-ish years old. It's just pure lols
Do we know for a fact that red and blue happened on day one after the war or has ten years passed since were survivers like surge would return to normal jobs
Before seeing this video, I was leaning toward the other side, thinking that what Lt. Surge said might actually be connected to the things mentioned in the Kanto War Theory. After seeing this video, I now figure that he was referring to some smaller war that wasn't as widely known about. But I also agree with the logic that proves that theory to be a load of BS, because nothing is ever mentioned about where the player character's father and rival's parents are. It's possible that they're still on their own Pokémon journey, exploring some other region. They might even be going through the regions in the same order as the games for all we know.
The pokemon theory about there being a Kanto war would have been cool if it were really true. Lt. Surge's line where his Raichu saved him durring the war can't just be written off as false. That would be too easy. I just have to believe that It's true, for old time's sake. It kinda makes you stop and think does Lt. Surge know something that we don't? What is his relation/ connection to the three legendary birds, along with Spark, Candella, and Blanche? I think it'd be wonderful if it really 'came together ' as they claimed it would. I just feel like I'm left on a cliffhanger! I wanna know more about Lt. Surge and his fameous buddy/ companion Raichu! I hope they can come out with a storyline that is well written and doesn't come off as lazy writing. Just saying. Don't play us like that, Gamefreak! We deserve better! Get the unbelievers back into this franchise that we all know and love! Make things make sense for this theory to work. I'd be on board with that! 😎 Until then, we'll be looking for more clues in regards to this theory! Then again, there is always fanfiction! Writers, write on! I believe in y'all! Good luck with everything!
I mean, I think people are just having fun as we do with all the theories we create based on technical errors, glitches, etc, even if they don't exactly make sense I still like to picture them being part of the game. I don't think there's any harm in it
Well there was a dedunk with this theory because it was confirmed that in the Kalos region there was a war. Can’t brush that under the rug. It’s a main plot point to X and Y because of the machine that ended that war
Yeah, the evidence used for this theory is faulty, but I wouldn't say that the possibility of there being an Kanto War to be false. We should base possibility of this theory on confirmed or likely facts, such as Lt. Surge, an American/Possible Unovaian being living in Japan/Kanto much like how American Soldiers were stationed Japan after WW2.
I have to confess something I've never played Pokemon Red or Blue, or any of their remakes or counterparts But I did read Adventure Red So because of all that, I have only ever seen Lt. Surge as some jerky rebel asshole and I honestly can not get that idea out of my head
1. You can't use trainer classes to determine if they are involved or crime or not. People of every profession can participate in crime on the side and don't often advertise it. 2. There are FAR more children than adults in the pokemon universe. Its not the norm for children to be pomemon trainers yet there are a comparable amount of children to adults. 3. The male/female ratio is very off when you consider almost all hospital workers and police officers are female.
I thought X and Y directly confirmed this theory to be true by going into depth with the War! With AZ's machine to end the war and Verizion, Terakion, and Cobalion leading the Pokemon into battle. Within the game they stated the war multiple times and directly connected it to the Gen 1 war, proving it to be an actual event within the stories history.
My question is why do all “THE HISTORY OF POKEMON” videos include this “War” as a part of the Pokemon Timeline? Idk maybe i’m trippin? Its 3 AM maybe I should go to bed
The war happened. In fact many wars have happened in the Pokemon world. Some people don't want to accept war in Pokemon because it's a geared toward children as a franchise. However, Pokemon has its dark moments too and as an adult we can appreciate the realism behind it all. This was not enough evidence to truly debunk the theory.
I liked your argument until you added the whole “it’s all a fantasy game” element to it. That’s sort of a cop out to any in-game theory. Of course it’s a fantasy game. If you can’t use in-game cannon to debunk a theory, then is it really debunked?
I'll be announcing the winner of the Let's Go giveaway at 7pm ET over on Twitter, so keep an eye out!!
Yay so excited!
I dont use twitter
+HoopsandHipHop, first of all, I hope it wasn't me. Secondly, you forgot one small detail. In the 90s, America had gone to war in Iraq. If the Lightning American, from Unova, went to war, it would be in a region we have not seen yet in the middle east. Just a thought.
@smb85 dkc94 idk
Does anyone remember the glitch for Pokemon Crystal on how to get Mew and involved picking the female character choosing a right name and resetting it multiple times using multiple names and after you get it to a certain point and got to a certain name the female characters Sprite hair would be colored red instead of blue then after you get your first pulp one you would look out the window when you would pop up and jump in the window at you and Professor Elm so practically in Crystal you're able to get two starter Pokemon your general star that you chose and Mew if you took the time and patience
Even if Kanto wasn't involved, there was definitely a war at some point. X/Y made war canon in the Pokemon world, and if Lt. Surge was lying, I don't think the Pokemon League would be cool with him pretending to be a Veteran to everyone who enters his gym.
Simon the Gallade I agree. I've always thought the war theory pretty interesting so I don't like the idea of it being debunked completely. Sure there might be slightly variation and it might not be exactly the way people originally theorized it to be but there had to be some kind of war somewhere.
Maybe he went to the XY war
@@9rr0r31 except that was 3000 years ago
Yeah DEFINITELY there was a war in the past
Pokemon conquest proves pokemon were used in war
As we know there are wars in Pokemon (the war in Unova and the war in Kalos) it's possible that Surge was indeed in a war, now hard to say where it took place; also saying that because Masuda was that about the rival shouldn't be taken to the gym leaders, it would make one think that Blaine wasn't a scientist or Sabrina wasn't a psychic and that they just gave them that dialogue to be more entertaining. Also possible that war between Unova (America) and Kanto (Japan) and Surge is stationed there like how after WW2 us soldiers were stationed in Japan. Also got to think of overall npc population over trainer classes
There’s no way Lt. Surge was in those wars tho, because those wars were happening 2500-3000 years ago
@@henry7486 wasn't saying in those exact wars of the past, but saying that those examples showed that indeed the Pokemon world had wars and that Surge could have fought in a war (not one of the ancient ones but closer to modern day) and we just don't know when
While I agree with a few of the items listed in this video there are a few things I don't agree with.
1) time frame, this video seems to assume the war happened within the last two or so years, while if we use the player character as a base it is possible the player was born during the war, father left for war as they were born or were still many months pregnant. So the war could possibly have happened 9+ years ago
2) with this timeframe in mind if we look at surge as being possibly in his 30-40 age range, which is not unreasonable it shows he is still in the range of military draft, also possible with the not mentioning of war that people want to forget about it but surge was such a fanatic about keeping military in mind that he boasts about it.
3) now if we look at the 9+ years since the war and look at the pokemon classes we can see that a lot of the 'non Military or criminals' are likely in there 20s now so would have been too young at the time of drafting. On top of that while things like fishermen and bickers aren't military there is something called Hobbies, these could be veterans living out post war doing what they enjoy or just enjoying nature, and if we look at tamers they could be seen as military if we take in to account that pokemon were used, which would likely mean tamers being needed to train pokemon for war.
So while I agree with a few points in the video I feel it is a bit too narrow thinking on how time frames and rolls could be used and I had to speak up about this.
I would agree. Lt. Surge would've been around 18-23 when going out to War imo, Surge seems like a character who would have been driven to go out and save his country, but never made it back and supported Kanto instead.
Well said!
One of Surge's gym trainer's mention a war as well, but he's Surge's subordinate who was under his command during whatever war happened, so if Surge came from Unova, I think the dude would've followed him, as he seemed awful loyal the guy.
Everyone else is out here supporting the theory but you just want everyone to give a big f to the guy who’s supported Surge his whole life
Surge didn't come from Unova. If he did, Let's Go would say so
ore wa shubachinchin ga daisuki nandayo kusa shubashuba
*Opens video*
*Intro sounds blast*
*Lowers voulme*
*Hoops start talking*
"What? I can't hear you!"
haha same
@@DCTRMN Wait that was 2 years ago that I make that comment? It fells that I did recently.
Or I missrembering with different comment.
@@PhantomDogman nope it was 2 years ago, time flies..
The amount of trainer classes doesn't matter it's the amount of trainers
One thing I will say is that when you went over the available trainer types, you never really mentioned the _frequency_ of said types.
I feel the reason why we don't see a lot of these things is because they aren't important to the story. We never see washrooms, but I'm sure they exist. The towns are also kinda small, compared to real towns. Black and White 2 added new towns to Unova, so maybe from a lore perspective, regions are bigger and with more stuff then we see in game.
Jason Birkinshaw it’s a common Japanese design philosophy if it’s not necessarily important to the core story then just don’t include it, if you watch anime and wonder why a 14yo in Japan has their own apartment and parents don’t seem to be around it’s not because that’s a common thing in Japan it’s simply the creators choosing to ignore elements that are not needed for the story. Absentee parents are a huge one we see a lot.
I totally agree. They're not going to elaborate (or even touch on) on points that aren't relevant to the game. Parents are annoying and such a thought is seemingly common within children XD and then really random things like bathrooms and churches and HUMAN doctors and large, developed towns are all things that really do exist, but not necessarily within the game at a DESIGNER'S POINT only, because it would take eons to put that much intricate detail in like, 8-10 towns XD
Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist!
Meh. The argument wasnt very substantial. Left out exact numbers of the sprites in Kanto. Also didn't take in effect those unable to join the military and those who may be survivors. Also there are later references to the war in other games and media. The quote also was lame because it was stretched to fit your meaning. You might want to come with more evidence the next time you 'debunk' a theory.
There are literally trainers who tell you Surge was their commanding officer in the war lol This dude's just ignoring them
I had the same thought. There are more Rocket Grunts than there are Jugglers lol
💯!!!
Hoops sounds REALLY mad that this theory even exists 🤣
So this war theory is actually one of my favorites. With the limited capabilities of gen 1, the idea that there was a war going on pre game makes the world feel just a little richer. That’s kind of the point to any Pokémon theory. But you did a solid job of debunking it, so good job! However, I think you need to consider Lt Surge’s line a little more. Yeah, sure, it’s a line meant to establish a unique boss character, but it’s not fair just to write it off like that. Are we going to say that Agatha doesn’t know Oak or that Sabrina isn’t psychic, just because they’re lines of text to establish a unique boss character. Of course not, because these characters are a big part of world we’re playing in. Sabrina is psychic, Agatha does know Oak, and Lt Surge was in a war. Even if the creators weren’t thinking if a specific war, it’s established that one happened. Now, it probably wasn’t a Kanto war. Maybe. Absence of evidence doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. But it could have very well been a war in a different region. Unova, you mentioned. Or a region that we never have and never will see. I’m not saying your wrong, heck I actually think you’re right. But you can deny that a war happened when it’s so directly stated in game.
4:42 Shouldn't we count the NPCs as such despite going by their class? Especially because I know for a fact that there is a juggler in the Sliph Co. Building that is part of Team Rocket for some reason.
8:28 And even "in universe". Okay, let's say children are intrusted with Pokémon in Kanto due to the unique circumstances.
How does that explain the approach of the other regions that do the very same thing?
My dude mad as hell in this video.
I'm saying. LMFAO!
Bro was hurt.
@@SolisOfDreams And he wasn't even right! "No one else mentions the war!" uhhhh except the people who talk about how Surge is a war hero and/or the ones who say they literally served under him in battle?
Why do you keep using trainer classes instead of NPC numbers?
Seems like a very bad way to work out population to me.
Or am I missing something?
I don't get it either.
Even though he's comparing trainer classes, there's still good amount of adult males. And the theory is extreme in implying that there are very few adult males in the game. Which is not true.
@@jiby911 Yeah Maybe The " Dead " Part Is Wrong But The population Of Grunts And Military Trainers Is Still Higher
@@BerriesSan There is no " military characters class" , there is *only* Surge.
And yes, there is lots of grunts and theives and bad "classes",
*but its not hard to believe that theres EVER such a thing as a city or state/region trope as being corrupted or have high rates of crime.
That sort of thing is already a IRL world experience??*
@@whirlybird6796 the military has need for Navy sailors, engineers, scientists, and things like that which are represented in RGB
“Lots of other gym leaders that have extreme characters that aren’t plot important!” Proceeds to list Blaine whose scientist character is directly tied to the Mew Two arch, and Giovanni who is THE MAIN MOB BOSS VILLAIN
Yeah
I don't see anything really wrong with the theory. Some of those trainer classes are more so teenagers and/or unfit for military action, say nerds and maniacs for example. You should also be going by the exact number of each trainer class, that may help or hurt your argument. A game however cannot just throw logic out for the sake of it. That excuse never held water for any form of media. I will also count the gym leaders and the elite four as well as the entire system to be interwoven with the entire political and military sectors. After all you got magical creatures that can cause some serious damage. Why wouldn't they? Even though I believe that it is more so a collective world culture than anything else, it doesn't change the fact that Kanto is unnaturally empty. So something happened whether it be a war or something else.
A few things to argue against, though I do agree with some of the points you make:
1. Conscription means that, unless you are physically incapable (eg. Serious illness, disability, old age), too young, female (well, originally), or a criminal (in prison or fleeing conscription), you must join the military. With as few men as the theory suggests, that would make every single scientist, rocker, biker, bird keeper, and more to be too only kids, teens at the oldest, because none have obvious affiliation with criminals or the military (ok, maybe scientist if you count the Japanese names in gen 1), and there's some he listed that are being generous for being military or criminal, like rocker and black belt, adding even more. This point in the theory then assumes there's either only one survivor that's still in the military, or EVERYONE in the military except Surge died.
2. While its never fun to say there's no lore reasoning to things, only physical reasons, the fact is that a supposed lack of men isn't the only issue with the worldbuilding in gen 1. There's very few houses, and very few adults in general, even including elderly and women. This is also due to technical limitations, because if you try explaining it with lore, you get the logic that either Kanto is full of families with numerous children (which would have to be before any sort of post-war baby boom with the lack of men the theory insists on), or a ridiculous amount of homeless orphans. And homeless people in general when you look at the sparse housing. I mean, Pallet Town alone has twice the population as it has houses, same with nearly every other town. Does this war assume that even the women and elderly are mostly homeless?
3. The theory doesn't take into account suggested explanations that factor in physical limitations. Look at the map and there's many parts of Kanto that are just blocked off from gameplay, as well as a full world (yes, this was true even before we knew about other regions). Being a trainer is confirmed a common thing, so why is a war more likely than them just being in places you can't visit in the game?
4. The gym challenge is literally stated to be a challenge to all trainers to see whom is strongest, set by the current strongest trainers. As for gyms, the games briefly mention that they do change and are decided by facing each other, as shown with the fighting gym. The show explains further, if you want to cross canons
The problem with the entire theory is that it tries explaining one lore question using a single line, without considering everything in the game. It tries answering a question that is closely related to other lore issues that it ignores
I agree with tubefan90000 but would also like to add that sure, you cannot completely throw out logic, but because it's fantasy, some things can be just taken at face value.
Like how for Dora the explorer, a little girl can just go out into jungles and talk with all the wild animals. Something can just happen BECAUSE it's fiction. We don't need an over explanation.
Children can travel around an entire nation in days and have monstrous beings that could annihilate mountains... why??? Just because...
Sometimes, we aren't supposed to over think about it. Somethings are meant to be enjoyed rather than explained. Or like how you can just watch tricks without knowing how they are done.
I agree completely. Kanto does come off empty as if something catastrophic happened. I don’t think they’d have Lt. Surge say something about a war and it be false.
Master Brad maybe it's empty because it's an old game made in a very difficult and problematic maybe chaotic working process that was almost not produced in the first place for lack of investment?
Pokemon wasn't created peacefully with huge budget and fully supported by one company throughout the entire process. It was already a challenge to have it on the market in the first place.
And again
He's a foreigner!!! The war he was talking about could totally be elsewhere
@@tpsam that doesn't exactly apply to latter iterations of the region.
Honestly this just felt too weak to be called a debunking.
Isn't it feasible that in the last 10 years since you/the player were conceived, the war was already over, and Surge is now middle-aged, and all the males who were not eligible for the military are now a decade older?
You raise some great points that cannot be denied though.
Speaking of the in-world references to our world, couldn't the Pokemon League have systematically changed the world economy over the decades since the moon landing to shift global politics and power to a Pokemon-based economy, and, could it be possible that Alola is the most recent to convert to this global Pokemon enterprise as we contribute to the founding of the Pokemon League there, but also, because of Alola's history and culture of loving Pokemon, it was a prime region to convert to the Pokemon League lifestyle, maybe being parallel to Hawaii becoming part of the USA in real life, and the other regions history could also be the same allegory for American influence in the world, but obviously over a much larger time period.
The "war" could have happened in RBY but may not have been as recent as people think and I think between 10-20 years would seem right to encourage a "Scouts" style youth culture of children learning how to fend for themselves and look after others in case of losing their homes to some catastrophe, natural or otherwise. It also stands to reason that Team Rocket was founded by the mob boss as a means of training people in a similar way to the Pokemon League, but without the political and moral red tape, and to teach their associates that life isn't always fair, and to get what you want, sacrifices have to be made, even if it's something you don't want to give up. Perhaps it was Giovanni and Rocket that inspired the other regions "evil" teams to form as we see them, to realise their dreams for a better world by any means available.
Also, a war gives the reason that Team Rocket is called Team Rocket, because rockets are a military super weapon based on siege engines like catapults and cannons. A mob in our world usually has access to weapons, usually in unorthodox ways, and, in the Pokemon World, your Pokemon is your weapon.
I do agree with everything you said in this video Hoops, but this is a fan theory after all. Although, maybe this was intended but not thought out to much. We do know that Pokemon were going to be tamed by means like whipping because of Sabrina's artwork, and other art from early production. We also know that battles were called fights, which is a lot more aggressive rather than implying the friendly competition we now know the series for. It's food for thought, but we know that Pokemon is far deeper than what is on the surface, especially with dex entries. It's a very scary world.
You are the one taking this too seriously. The whole point of theories like this is to have fun and just understand the world more. You don’t have to get so upset.
I agree with most of your arguments, but you haven't debunked the Lt. Surge fighting a war. a war is quite a stronger thing pointing to Pokémon's world backstory than cockiness being just a trait of the two earlier rivals.
JoaoG R he does mention Lt. Surge probably comes from Unova. He might ha fought some war for them, just one that didn't really involve Kanto.
On the idea of entertainment, there is also the gyms themselves. In the anime and event in the remake in Let's Go, we see stadium like seating around many of the gyms implying that people would go watch these matches against their local gym leader and that the league itself is a spectator sport. In addition, each home of your main character has a gaming system, and there is clearly movies or tv programs being broadcasted on the tv implying there is a bigger entertainment industry at work even if it isn't something we directly interact with.
Naw, why try to debunk one of my favorite theories! lol
Strictly speaking, bird keepers could be part of war, birds have been used in war to relay messages. Psychics could be part of ESP war, the Pokemon world's MK Ultra. Tamers might be the ones teaching Pokemon in warfare. Dolphins have been attempted used in naval warfare, so maybe fishers send some of their catches to the military.
+1. And there's also the possibility of some characters, like super nerds, being unable to pass the physical requirements
Wasn't there some NPCs with whips too? Ya know, those things people have used to severely injure people?
Lieutenant Surge- "I still remember it like it was yesterday. It was back in the Unova region. I was stationed at Platinum harbor. All of a sudden they came from the sky riding on their Pidgeots! They attacked ruthlessly! My electric Pokemon and I fended them off. We raced down to Diamond Harbor and were able to fend them off there. But alas, the 3rd harbor fell under the attack. Many lives lost that day."
The animation for "fly" will never be the same for me now that I have thought of that
I laughed so hard
@@redricblue8790 glad you liked it. I forgot I wrote that lol.
Considering the first gen's connections to the real world (references to America, Russia and India, the Space Shuttle Columbia, etc), I always just assumed he was referencing some real-world war. Given how old Surge looks and the year the original games came out, I always figured he was referring to the Gulf War.
This is the worst theory video I've ever seen (and I've seen Matpat's Sans = Ness video)
1. You use trainer classes, but don't look at the actual populations of each trainer class.
2. You ignore the fact that there are a ton of kid's game's where you play as adult characters (e.g. the various Mario games).
3. Pokémon isn't a fantasy franchise. It's a science fiction franchise (admittedly it is pretty soft science fiction).
4. I'm interested in seeing your theory about how Giovanni is only a crime boss in order for him to stand out, and how Kanto has never had a problem with organized crime.
5. That quote in no way shape or form debunks the Kanto war theory.
You do know there are different amounts of trainers in any given trainer class, right?
Also, have you even seen any Pokemon theories on youtube? they are all about looking at obscure details and trying to find any evidence possible.
I think Game theory did a good job with there theory.
In the case of the Celadon Game Corner, that was just a ruse for Team Rocket to make more money, so I wouldn't really count that. Otherwise, though, your point on there being forms of entertainment in Kantou is still solid.
There was another person that mentioned the war in surge's Gym. There is a old man there who said he was trained by surge for the war or something along those lines.
Best of luck on your Let's Play. Amusingly enough, I watched a 10 minute video on the theory that you're debunking and I always similarly felt it was unlikely. Here's to the upcoming Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee. Best wishes to you :)
I think what is likely is there was a war Surge participated in, but it didn't happen in Kanto and he moved to the area afterwords.
12:50 This is why the new friendly rivals are so forgettable
Well there was a war that much is confirmed and all those trainer classes you mentioned are filled with younger males who could of been too young to fight in the war at the time and the few older men could of just been survivors of the war. This theory stands up better than most pokemon theories like the ash being in a coma bullshit.
Honestly even if they did intend ot to be true I don't think they would ever confirm it now. Pokemon is a child friendly franchise so bringing in a topic involving death. Still a good in dept video explaining it not being true.
Death is nothing new for the pokemon world. Remember all those graves and the origin of many ghost type pokemon?
Yeah, forget about all those dark pokedex descriptions. They don't exist.
@@MrInternetMan forget about the largest source of information in the pokemon world and is to be taken as fact? Are you crazy? You cannot disregard something like that.
@@andresmarrero8666 Forget sarcasm. It's lost on this guy. It doesn't exist.
Well, there was at least two more mentions of Pokémon War in media.
First - "Lucario and the Mystery of Mew" movie, there were epic flashbacks
Second - plot of X&Y games. AZ's Floette died in war
game theory actually did a cool theory about pokemon go, and mentions this "war" as part of that theory. worth checking out for a different perspective.
Shiroyuki nah. That one isn’t true
That's rubbish. Worth my poop.
well if you guys think so that's your perogative, no use in aruging the merits or lack thereof of a theory, all i did wa merely mention a different yet also well thought out theory. to met with a reply like "worth my poop" is not worth any weight in conversation.
@@soldierofchaos8552 "well thought out theory" 😂😂😂😂😂 good one!
i think it is. they usually use fan theories an try to expand upon them to prove or debunk it, and they've done a fairly good job at it and seeing the amount of time they've invested per theory i can only assume it's a well substantiated claim.
your disliking of a particular video doesn't make it a bad video or a video wherein effort wasn't put into it, it just means you dislike it. and as i said, this war was only part of a larger theory about pokemon go possibly being a prequel to gen 1 which is quite compelling.
do you also find their how old is ash analysis to be shit as well? or not because it's more logical and less filling in non sequential information as with the pogo theory? do you hate the audible and or visual puns they're so well known for using? or the fact that they link sponsors at the end of the video? is it the video or the person you don't like
there's no difference between this video hoopsandhiphop made and one with an opposing theory to it and i just wanted to let him know it exists if he didn't know just to see a different perspective.
also, all questions i asked are of a rhetorical nature as i don't intend to reply again and i would ask you not to reply but i know you probably will so i'm just letting you know i likely won't.
have a nice day further.
First of all, I will say that some of those trainer classes you named as "Adult male" in the first half, were designed more as teens than adults.
However, that doesn't mean I don't agree with you as you put it well on the head when mentioning a good chunk of the items that easily debunk it is simply that it's a fantasy world and the technical limitations of the Gameboy. I mean, people think :O there's only 1 bedroom in the house... umm no, you just can only go to one bedroom in the house, the game's limitations just showed enough of what needed to be done. And you can be all like but the room's the same size as the one below... well need I remind you that the outside of the house is only like 3 squares grids long and 4 high? so How does each of those rooms even fit in there o.O It's really the same thing here. Most of the things come from the limitations of the system and simply the game not being super eqravagant to show every nook and cranny of the world. Also, who said Blue and Daisy are orphans? Or that Red doesn't have a dad? For all we know they could simply be at work or just else where, or simply the programmers didn't feel like messing with adding the characters.
Also, Uh… what are you talking about there's hospitals all over the place? Are you talking about that building with the Red Roof? Uh... that's not a hospital.. it's a Pokémon Center. Designed to treat Pokémon... not humans. It's equivalent to a Vet's office. So uh... Yeah.
Alright, jumping in deep with my thoughts on this theory!
To Point #1: I hadn't heard anyone claim that it was all adult males in the region; I just thought it was the reason why you and your rival didn't have fathers. That they were advanced battlers that were enlisted due to their skill. I think that circumstantial evidence is cool, but I don't think it really is the focus of the theory. You spend about half the video talking on this point and idk if it's really the focus of the Pokemon War theory. I agree that it would be absurd to claim that this spills over, and generally I find it to be a weaker element of the theory in sum total.
To Point #2: About gyms, I personally have never thought they were a part of some military training element (though I collabed with BKT talking about how it might be to protect us against interdimensional threats). I assumed that these gyms were formed after the Pokemon war, not during or before it. The Pokemon War was the precursor to the seemingly "utopic" world of Pokemon that we know and love.
To Point #3: The Lt. Surge (the actual juice of the theory): No one said this war was Kanto exclusive. Also some (like myself) believe that the regions did not exist as we knew them during the Pokemon War, and that America might have been a real place beforehand. It is weird that he shows up in Kanto though afterwards. I think it doesn't make sense to discount Lt. Surge's war comment as not happening because that simply does not make sense. Are you suggesting he spouted nonsense? Also, just because this was primarily "flavor text" for Lt. Surge given his character design does not necessarily mean that a war did not happen. They could have had him say something else to make him memorable, such as his military training giving him discipline, etc. I don't think any of the points provided truly "debunk" this theory as false.
One last thing I'll say: If Pokemon theorists were to use "game design" as the reason why theories are wrong, it's very unlikely that we'd have any plot or lore related theories at all. The most we'd have are game design theories. What makes theories like this so compelling is that is builds the lore in a way that adds depth to the world.
Solid video dude!
Also, the reason it's not referenced more, using your "game design" critique, is moreso because this is a game geared towards kids.
I like how he says "solid video dude!" After completely destroying his self esteem. Please dont make him cry.
Do you not understand that if a war is mentioned in the game, it's not bullshit?
While you did a pretty good job debunking it, I think the extended version done by HybridHero and Lumiose Trainer Zac would hold up a lot better than the original one you debunked in your video, so I still somewhat believe it.
Not trying to prove this theory but the npc's in the trainer classes of the age to participate in a war may not have been the necessary age during the war.
All great points.
If the war Lt. Surge talked about happened in one of the existing regions, the Orre region seems the best fit for me.
Yup shadow pokemon being used to specifically kill people
Thumbnail says lame theory yet it's better than all of yours
For the numbers of class types, that isn’t a good point since it doesn’t take into account the number of members of each trainer class. You fight a lot more lass, youngster, and cool trainers than you do nerd, pokemaniac, or engineer. The cool trainers/ace trainers have always struck me as more teenage than adult, while hikers are definitely adult. Also, there is a lore reason why 10 year olds are sent out into the Pokémon world. It’s tradition (probably leftover from when 10 was considered adult since people died at 30).
🤔 . . . I have my own ‘war theory’. The creators grew up during the Cold War & there were conflicts in Korea & Vietnam, so I doubt there were any actual wars IN Kanto, but . . . 🤷♂️…
THAT is the basis to my theory…
I never agreed to the "Great war theory" but I assumed there would be wars throughout pokemon history as the pokemon world mimics ours. And that Surge was a foreigner, maybe a refugee who made his own way to Kanto from a different country and that war kanto never engaged in.
I always thought they wrote blue amazingly orphan boy who didn't know how to process his emotions so he was a jerk to people and he was always a head because he pushes himself so in him mind he could say his parents were proud. I always saw him as a sad boi.
The music is so intense. Also great video 👍
Thank you!
I thought the war was between Mystic, Instinct, and Valor to stop the cruel use of grinding Pokémon into candy. Which also explains why rare candies are scattered throughout the region
You could add that Let's Go shows gyms having stands for people to watch the fights, so they are a form of entertainment
I think that the protagonists in Kanto & Hoenn are born decades after a major war in the Pokemon Universe. We just do not know with whom. New Mauville in OR/AS and the numerous laboratories in Kanto that experiment on Pokemon (the bending or abandonment of ethics is popular during wartime) also support this idea, in my opinion. The theory treats war as having been recent, but if we think about it as several decades from the adventures of the protagonists, it makes more sense.
Made some great points, I think because I accepted it as fact when I was a kid I never really thought to question it.
You should do a series on debunking old/accepted as fact theories
I didn't really have an opinion on this theory originally. I had never seen enough evidence to prove it in my mind. I was waiting for someone to come along with enough evidence to prove it one way or the other. I think you've done a pretty good job of that here. There were a couple of points you made that could've been stronger, but overall, you've done a good job and I now believe this is probably fake.
Man there's more forms of entertainment in the Kanto region that you listed then there is in my town lmao
hum… in Lucario movie we see flashbacks from an ancient war, however i agree with you about this issue with Lt. Surge !
1.) Even if the male numbers aren't so much reduced, according to the theory, supposedly Kanto won the war, so one could say that Kanto devolped an strategy or a plan that allowed they to lose the less amounts of troops and pokemon. This isn't always the case, but, the point is that is possible.
2.) Respect to the point of being an orphaned kid (also girl if we count FireRed and Leaf Green), the concept is a ''weapon of double blade'', because as we don't see really a dialogue apart from the ones from the Lt. Surge that directly suggest that there was a war, we also don't have info that suggest that there wasn't a war.
3.) As I said in point 1, maybe PEOPLE ARE TRYING to forget the war, this make sense because of the following points:
*Remember when you said that ''No one apart from Lt. Surge talks about a ''past war'' ''?. Well, THAT'S ANOTHER DOUBLE BLADED WEAPON, because that could mean that Lt. Surge dislikes the idea of forgetting the conflict and that's why he mentioned it, other explanation could be that as a Lieutenant, he lives from military business, and, in a ''possible creapy way'', he wants to start again hostilities.
*As you can see in Gold and Silver, 3 years have passed since Red and Blue. In that períod, certain things happen and one of those is that the only ground border is basically the entrance to the Pokemon League, shared between both regions Kanto and Jotho.
*OK, I have to admit that this might sound a little ''hypocrite'' from a certain point of view, but maybe the reason we don't see military outpost, bases and similar stuff is because after the end of the war, people decided to recover creating more hospitals in order to deliver a ''message of prevention'' rather than ''cure''.
4.) Just because a trainer who has the look of an engineer doesn't really means that he can't have participated in a war, maybe when things started the military started working together with civilian companies or they didn't have enough time to design ''military outfits'' for civilian professionals who supported the war's efforts. They could have served in the war and even have their own military outfits, but after the end, they are returning to their normals lifes and, therefore, they are using civilian outfits rather military ones, remember that they want to forget about it.
5. But, forgetting about the war doesn't necessarily means that you must dissolve every type of military forces or even preventive measures, maybe the reason Lt. Surge is the gym leader of a coast city is because is the only way to enter by water to Kanto from Jotho, and, from a defensive standpoint, using electricity against water is very effective, not only you can just electrify water and paralyze (if not kill) everyone, it doesn't matters if is a pokemon or a person, striking down every kind of underwater strategy or using pokemon as assault boats. At least according to science, our bodies are composed of 70-80% of water, and you know the relationship between water and electricity.
6.) Being Lt. Surge from Unova could mean that if a war occcured, there are high chances that Unova worked together alongside Kanto as allies, like when England asked for help to USNA (United States Of North America) in WWII or even, maybe a war occurred, but not mainly in Kanto, but instead on Unova, and Kanto was just another minor battlefront.
7.) There are some buildings being created for the events of Red and Blue and towns and cities seem to be a little small, that could be a hint of material losses in a war.
8.) And even if a war didn't primarily occurred in Kanto, what if the war instead occurred in Kalos, having as allies Kanto and Unova?. I'm saying this because, canonically, there was a war in Kalos, is mentioned directly in Pokemon X and Y, my point is that the main battlefront was Kalos, but eventually the war managed to spread into Kanto or Unova, that could explain in some way why Lt. Surge is on Kanto, because at some time of the war, they needed reinforces and Lt. Surge was among those reinforces offered by Unova to Kanto, I want to belive that although the main battlefront was Kalos, the war stroke even more brutally in corners like Kanto and that could explain why compared to Unova and Kalos it looks weaker as a region.
9.) Why Kanto is well-knowed for having the largest cemetery or sanctuary dedicated to the death and fallen in the Pokemon world?. This is heavily connected to my anterior point and viceversa.
Anyway, those were just my thoughts.
PD: I don't want to promote violence against your person, but as long reality tells the contrary, you seemed to be ''somewhat upsed'' when communicating your thoughts. Just saying in my opinion.
When you were doing your comparison of the military/organized crime classes to the non, you left out Rockets. So it's a 10-9 ratio, but your point is still valid lol.
Yo hoops is not only lt surge is talking about the war in fire red and leaf green games in lt surges gym is one gentleman who says "I was in military with lt surge" or something like that
This debunking is a stretch.
The War Theory is a ridiculous stretch. Pointing this out is not a Stretch.
Its just facts.
@@slevinchannel7589 How is the war theory a stretch? It was literally quoted by the characters in game lol
@@injetavel279 Arguments ending with lol are surely... good enough... yeah...
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WTF is even your question, when you are UNDER a Video debunking it? I mean, hello?
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@@slevinchannel7589 He's asking the question because the video does a very bad job debunking the theory because it doesn't address the very, very simple question that he's asking. Hope this helps.
While I think using number of Trainer Classes instead of actual population doesn't help your statement, I still agree with your statement.
I think his categorization of the trainer classes is wrong as well. a lot of the trainer classes he is saying are "adults" look to be at the very oldest early 20's, so they would have been too young to be involved in the war anyway, and when you keep in mind that the pokemon animation style typically depicts characters as older looking (like tell me for a second that you thought Brock looked 15 and Misty looked 10, their official ages), nearly all of the character classes in the game should not be considered "adult" The point is there are nearly zero like 30-45 year old males.
@@theheebs100 I wouldn't say nearly zero. All the hikers come to mind nothing else off the top of my head but it has been a while since I have played the originals.
All in all, I would like see the Pokémon war series as it would be an interesting plot and the ultimate conflict in the Pokémon universe.
THANK YOU!
I've felt uncomfortable with this theory for some time but I had not taken the time to figure out why. Supports another theory of mine, too!
So I don't know if this theory is true or not but not really convinced by this. You leave out a lot of information that would be helpful (like how many of each trainer class there are), shrug off evidence for the war by simply saying, kids game or fantasy world, we don't have to explain it, and the quote was a huge leap.
The only good point I felt was pointing out Surge might be from Unova, which is all fine and good, but I don't see any actual proof of this. Plus even if he was and he fought for Unova, that still doesn't prove Kanto wasn't involved in a war, allies are a thing, it's entirely possible that Kanto and Johto were in a war and Unova was Kanto's ally. That would also explain why he'd be in Kanto in the first place, the war was against Johto and Surge was stationed in Kanto.
The NES in the player's room is also regular entertainment.
I like the video and don't disagree with your conclusion, but I feel like a lot of information is missing. That was probably done because for time, but I'd still like to hear an explanation of some of your categories.
I'd like to see which classes you have categorized as "children" "adult men" "adult women" and "elderly." I'd also like to see which classes you would count as being part of the military, part of organized crime, or neither. And finally, I'd like to see how many members there actually are of each trainer class, which I'm sure could be gotten off Bulbapedia or whatever, but isn't as useful without the clarification of your classifications.
It can also talk about Kalos war which was happen way before the events of Red and Blue
And also happened 300 years ago, so long before Lt. Surge would have been born, so his comment is still completely generic.
If you're going to count the different trainer classes, you should note how common each one is.
The war could have ended up to about 10 years ago, which is long enough for non-jingoistic fanatics to stop bringing it up in every conversation.
Some of the non-military trainer classes seemed pretty young, could have definitely avoided a draft if the war ended a decade before.
Saying they gave characters interesting designs and dialog to make them memorable doesn't mean the characters aren't actually scientists or ninjas or whatever.
Maybe the war he fought in took place in Unova, his American influence makes that a possibility. But his referring to it as "*The* War" suggests the war at least had a significant affect in Kanto for Surge to expect a 10 year old boy to understand what he war referring to.
Good Stuff Hoops!
But a video on LT Surge being from the Unova region, would be interesting!
Here is the issue with your de-bunking. Lt. Surge is 34. He talks about the War as though it was a long time ago. let's be conservative and say he was 24 when the war took place, meaning he was in the military for 6 years prior to it taking place (maybe longer since age seems a bit different in the pokemon world. this could have been happening like 20 years ago.....). Based on this concept, individuals would need to be at least 28 to have taken place in the war. Outside of the Hiker and the tamer, the other trainer classes you mention as not being affiliated with a group all look to be young adult age at the oldest. You also need to account for fact that the characters are depicted in a way that makes them look older than they are. I mean, Misty looks like a young woman in the game, but her official age is 10. Brock looks like grown man, but he is supposed to be 15. also, your claim about extrapolating from Masuda's claims about the rival being a jerk to explain how Surge's text was just thrown in characterize him is a pretty large stretch. You really did not do a good putting the argument together.
this theory isnt lame its got way more validity than most poke conspiracies and its kinda cool playing the game and knowing theres a mysterious history to the region and its characters
The great war that was referred to in the X and Y is just the icing on the cake if you look back at mythology involving a lot of the polar opposite legendary Pokemon not a green and a true leader would end up having to put an end to their spat like Kyogre Groudon and Rayquaza it would be easy to sit there and sleep or think using your mind that the wars or war that refer to we're probably more than one and probably through the history that Pokemon used to subdue or put legendary Pokemon at ease or steal them away
Psychics and Cool trainers could be teenager or people who reached adulthood after the war.
Some really good points were made. Every piece of evidence was torn down perfectly. However... that doesn't completely tear down the theory that a war did happen. For all we know, Surge references an actual war he was a part of. A real world war. After all, the Pokemon world is heavily based off of our own.
8:40 you talk about 10 years old going on journey with red fight 6 or 7 year-old twin in the background.
The War could be a Poke-version of Gulf War. Because Surge is American. The War is recent to 1996. The War was US against Iraq.
This video needed to be made! I've always thought this theory was crazy. I mean, I'm all for exploring the lore of the Pokemon world (hence I watch these videos on UA-cam) but it's all been based on one single line of dialogue! Keep up the great work, Hoops :)
Game theory made a well thought out theory on this that isn't based on that one line. If you want to watch it, go ahead.
Great video!! I loved it and i'm looking foward for the next video!
Thank you!
Glad that you debunked this theory, Hoops. I also think this is a weak theory of its own because how ridiculous it sounded. I also heard some people somehow connected the 3,000 year old pokémon war from X & Y to this theory which makes Lt. Surge 3,000-ish years old. It's just pure lols
It makes sense now. I agree with you
Do we know for a fact that red and blue happened on day one after the war or has ten years passed since were survivers like surge would return to normal jobs
Theories like this are the results of adults playing kid games
Before seeing this video, I was leaning toward the other side, thinking that what Lt. Surge said might actually be connected to the things mentioned in the Kanto War Theory. After seeing this video, I now figure that he was referring to some smaller war that wasn't as widely known about. But I also agree with the logic that proves that theory to be a load of BS, because nothing is ever mentioned about where the player character's father and rival's parents are. It's possible that they're still on their own Pokémon journey, exploring some other region. They might even be going through the regions in the same order as the games for all we know.
It's not a theory. It's literally mentioned in the fucking game.
The pokemon theory about there being a Kanto war would have been cool if it were really true. Lt. Surge's line where his Raichu saved him durring the war can't just be written off as false. That would be too easy. I just have to believe that It's true, for old time's sake. It kinda makes you stop and think does Lt. Surge know something that we don't? What is his relation/ connection to the three legendary birds, along with Spark, Candella, and Blanche? I think it'd be wonderful if it really 'came together ' as they claimed it would. I just feel like I'm left on a cliffhanger! I wanna know more about Lt. Surge and his fameous buddy/ companion Raichu! I hope they can come out with a storyline that is well written and doesn't come off as lazy writing. Just saying. Don't play us like that, Gamefreak! We deserve better! Get the unbelievers back into this franchise that we all know and love! Make things make sense for this theory to work. I'd be on board with that! 😎 Until then, we'll be looking for more clues in regards to this theory! Then again, there is always fanfiction! Writers, write on! I believe in y'all! Good luck with everything!
I wonder if they'll change the description of LT. Surge to Unovan instead of American
I have a theory. There's nothing under your hat.
How did you know.....
I mean, I think people are just having fun as we do with all the theories we create based on technical errors, glitches, etc, even if they don't exactly make sense I still like to picture them being part of the game. I don't think there's any harm in it
We know of at least 2 wars. The one from the lucario movie and the one from X and Y
I heard that in the war they used to call Volkner the Yellow Flash and he had a flee on site order
Well there was a dedunk with this theory because it was confirmed that in the Kalos region there was a war. Can’t brush that under the rug. It’s a main plot point to X and Y because of the machine that ended that war
I do believe u but what if surge was just part of the war in the kalos region? Am I the only one thinking about that?
That was like 3000 years ago dude
Yeah, the evidence used for this theory is faulty, but I wouldn't say that the possibility of there being an Kanto War to be false. We should base possibility of this theory on confirmed or likely facts, such as Lt. Surge, an American/Possible Unovaian being living in Japan/Kanto much like how American Soldiers were stationed Japan after WW2.
The only Pokemon war I believe in is the 3000 yr ago one from Kalos.
Great Video Btw
I have to confess something
I've never played Pokemon Red or Blue, or any of their remakes or counterparts
But I did read Adventure Red
So because of all that, I have only ever seen Lt. Surge as some jerky rebel asshole and I honestly can not get that idea out of my head
1. You can't use trainer classes to determine if they are involved or crime or not. People of every profession can participate in crime on the side and don't often advertise it. 2. There are FAR more children than adults in the pokemon universe. Its not the norm for children to be pomemon trainers yet there are a comparable amount of children to adults. 3. The male/female ratio is very off when you consider almost all hospital workers and police officers are female.
You look Badly triggered throughout this video😅
Probably because Interest got in smash and his pathetic decidueye didn't
I thought X and Y directly confirmed this theory to be true by going into depth with the War! With AZ's machine to end the war and Verizion, Terakion, and Cobalion leading the Pokemon into battle. Within the game they stated the war multiple times and directly connected it to the Gen 1 war, proving it to be an actual event within the stories history.
3 thousand years ago, 3 THOUSAND
My question is why do all “THE HISTORY OF POKEMON” videos include this “War” as a part of the Pokemon Timeline?
Idk maybe i’m trippin? Its 3 AM maybe I should go to bed
The war happened. In fact many wars have happened in the Pokemon world. Some people don't want to accept war in Pokemon because it's a geared toward children as a franchise. However, Pokemon has its dark moments too and as an adult we can appreciate the realism behind it all. This was not enough evidence to truly debunk the theory.
I still think this is more likely than the Team Rocket being good theory.
I liked your argument until you added the whole “it’s all a fantasy game” element to it. That’s sort of a cop out to any in-game theory. Of course it’s a fantasy game. If you can’t use in-game cannon to debunk a theory, then is it really debunked?
I can use IN-Game Cannon - Blastoise (Its canon btw).