TMV banter when malding is always top tier, does it so well with anyone, plat chat should seriously do a TMV vs Sliggy debate session in the off season, ace attorney style
thank you for making this, the dramatic irony of them basically trolling each other (more like sliggy is doing all the trolling), without hearing each other is amazing. love that both were counting throughout the whole map
@@madclownzz1985 if a yoru ult runs through site and clears space it still got value, same with a raze rocket, if it gets a kill thats great, but if it forces them to give up space its still a win, obviously you want a kill of it, but even if it doesnt get one the space is still a win, in the same way as with clove ult, ofc you want the res, but u can use it like a pheonix ult and clear so much space with it that without a kill it still gets value
@@joehicks929The case with yoru ult is that u can tp back to safety and use ur util and info that u gather all over again. This case of clove is like if ur using raze ult and got insta sniped mid air, or using yoru ult and just cancel ult in front of the enemy to die instantly. Thats clearly not an ult lvl value.
this perfecly demonstrates how personal prefference/bias in how a game should be played ties into what you think is value. top content and both are right btw
I think TMV argued that the concept of providing utility after death isn’t so meaningful when you’d have more value being alive, anyway, no matter what agent you’re playing. Being okay with dying isn’t the smartest playstyle, even if you can provide util after death. I guess his point is that a 5v5 retake is more ideal than a 4v5 retake where the Clove died early in the round trying to be Reyna. Picking Clove just to play aggressively isn’t the best choice; you’re better off with Reyna or Iso. For double smokes, you’re better off with Viper or Omen. Put simply, with everything considered, a living Omen is still much likely better than a dead Clove. Or a live Clove, even.
@@whereami. yeah. And that point very much stands, Sliggy didnt even argue it on platchat lol. This fnatic bind game was more fnatic playing well than clove being good. TMVs definitely got a point, the smoke range is just too much of an issue for most maps in my opinion. You just cant smoke the other side.
@whereami. clove is that good because you can take some risk to win a round and if the risk fails you can still smoke. But you saw in this game that the clove had not many situations in which she did take a risk and got a advantage of it. So the usage of clove in this game was not really based of Sliggy arguments. The rest of the abilities like meddle nearly don't matter so yeah a omen flash would be way better.
@@whereami. Those are good points but you’re only talking about the bad instances where Clove dies early. What about all the rounds where Clove can get a first kill because they’re able to be more flexible/aggressive on their role? I agree that I’d rather have an Omen/Viper over Clove right now, but I do think people are discussing the agent with too much bias (both positive and negative)
@@Lucio20 Clove being more flexible and aggressive on the role of controller sort of contradicts the roles, if anything. Clove can smoke after death, but what about all the times a Clove wished they died a little closer to the other side of the map because their smokes are out of range? Or better yet, what if they didn’t die at all trying to take the first fight because that’s a duelist’s job, not a controller’s? Clove’s design is a controller that leans close to being a duelist, but it just means they’re a worse controller _and_ a worse duelist. In fact, since Clove’s kit is deliberately selfish and their smokes are shorter range & duration, they’re basically forced to be proactive and aggressive to find meaningful value that another controller can’t find. Sort of like how Sage doesn’t really act as a sentinel because she can’t truly fulfil that role; you gotta do specific stuff with Sage to get value. Just as it’s easier, safer and more reliable to pick another sentinel over Sage, there’s better options over Clove. Unless it’s ranked and you’re filling smokes, but this is VCT. Clove seems to create a weird middle ground between an aggressive comp and a double smokes comp where there’s better agents for either of those comps, so the middle ground is kind of awkward and problematic. I’d guess Icebox is likely Clove’s best map - with Icebox being the most poorly designed map - and even then, there’s probably better agent options. I reckon you’d have to be on Paper Rex levels of aggression to get some good mileage out of Clove before counterplay gets figured out. And even then, there’s always better, safer options you’re leaving behind.
To give Clove some credit, I do remember FPX running it down on Icebox at hyperspeed with Clove ult available. Which was good, and I can see other teams trying it, but I’d expect that to be antistratted soon enough, like everything eventually. That strat relies on the ult; the rest of the kit seems too lackluster.
Clove smoke after death is similar to omen tp where it allows you to take an off-angle without the risk of one, because smoke characters play safer due to how important having smokes are but when it’s clove, it doesn’t matter. So teams have to clear more angles and have a harder time executing into sites and even if the do get the clove, it doesn’t matter.
MTV looks for direct value from the abilities like decaying an enemy and killing them or using a pick me up to survive. Slug takes into account the mental aspect of playing the agent like confidence to swing cuz you know you’d be able to smoke if you die. IMO I feel like I lean towards mtv’s take.
@@the_monarch2172 agreed, the confidence and the ability feels too situational for now to be worthy of picking up in pro play but maybe that could change with tweaks. I do like having it in ranked, I know my teammates will push anyway, might as well have a smoke. Sliggy is a great master baiter though
but at the same time TMV isn't counting emergent situations in terms of map control/pressure/disruption in which the value isn't as tangible but still exists solely because of what clove can do whereas sliggy was counting those. TMV was definitely coping on some of those "no value" calls lol
Honestly I understand sliggys pov it's basically like not being tied down by the leash of being a controller, a controller typically has to stay alive and almost be a lurker so they don't die but clove is fine dying so it takes off a big weight from the team
I fully agree. Just play any other agent and it would be much better. Fucking play Omen man. Except for certain pros being comfortable with not worrying about util and fullt focused on their mechanics and game sense.
I have no clue what riot was going for when they released clove, only thing I can think of is a smoker geared for ranked. Her pick me up requires a kill and doesn’t last long, the meddle can’t actually clear corners nor does it fly far, the ult is easily countered when the opponents are coordinated, even her smokes dissipate the quickest, even faster than a harbour cove. Smoke after death is cool, but as a controller won’t u try to stay alive and provide way more value throughout the entire round anyway?
@Sugarist0 the good thing about clove is that you can take some risk to have a higher chance to win the round. But this was not really the case in that game.
I agree with tmv on this one. Like 90% of the time the value that clove creates would also be created by any other controller, but the other controllers have way better smokes overall.
It does seem like tmv is just a clove hater. But he is also right that the most value is alfa has a smokes agent he looks comfortable on much more than viper
@@fixihartmann9051 how many round would the omen flash have resulted in a kill or assist? If that’s what he’s basing it off. Also can’t open the TP with omen. Only consistent value would b fake TP and one ways
@@archanagavli8628 yes but most of controllers value comes from their smokes anyways. If you take away omens smoke what value is he getting from his TPS? From his ult? And based on TMVs definition of value how often do you actually get an assist from paranoia. Definitely not every round
@@tobe.moemekabut omen flash is definitely one of the best abilities in the game. Clear a site? Omen flash, hold a site? Omen flash? Having a setplay? Omen flash. It just has a long enough and wide enough range. Also why on earth would u take omen smoke away from omen? That's his value, he has unique oneway, unique smoke mechanic (like timing oneway), it's just part of his kit
The only thing I will say, TMV is 100% wrong about the no value ult round. Alfa took a risk flanking because he knew he had ult and could still smoke after death. He gets a kill. Uses ult and then just runs to the site with no hesitation, clearing all the angles while his team mates follow. He could only do that as clove, it’s value.
How is that impact tho? He’s using the clove ult as a bonafide skye dog what does that ult do that a skye dog doesn’t? Tmr is fully correct because if your agents ult is literally just a skye dog what’s the point of using them? Omen gives you a quick rotate/getting spike. Brim gives you an orbital laser. Astra gives you a giant smoke you can’t shoot through. Clove ult gives you nothing that makes her better than the other three. the death after smoke doesn’t really matter because you never want your smokes to die first and if the site they died at was stacked you have to hit it with short smokes or rotate and lose the advantage of having more smokes
Not just that but he didn’t even fully clear the angles he just ran to the site far ahead of his team forcing them to check the angles anyway in case someone took a timing
@@WitheredW I'm not comparing between agents. I'm not saying whether Clove is better than Omen. I'm stating what is and isn't value. Cloves ult and using smokes after death allows u to take risks. That's what Sliggy was saying the entire time. What Alfa did was take a risk, knowing he had ult. That is value. And compared to a skye dog it was Alfa, Afla has better vision than the dog. Has a vandal, and if he got a kill would've stayed alive. "the death after smoke doesn’t really matter because you never want your smokes to die first" except that is only the case for every other smoke except Clove. Clove can die first, if the player takes a risk, gets two kills and then gets traded. They still have the smokes for retake. That is value.
@@WitheredW Its the same way if Phoenix ulted and didn't see anyone but allowed the rest of his team to get space. Its basically a better skye dog and TMV counted skye using dog through the tp even tho it didn't see anyone. Its the same thing.
@@unincognito3689 Your forcing your player to play a style that depends on taking risks that is extremely risky in this game it worked because vitality were not shooting back but any team that is shooting back is more than capable of shutting down that player. And then when that happens the players has no impact because they get shutdown every time they take said risk. Also taking a risk isn’t a clove specific playstyles every character can play like that just because she can smoke after death doesn’t mean you want to play a 5v4 retake with the shortest smokes in the game.
I feel like TMV does a lot of bad faith arguing about the value, like a meddle thrown into a corner that nobody is in gets as much value as a raze nade doing the same thing but you never see anyone complain "oh that molly was a waste" when it effectively cleared the corner/made it easier to clear. In pro play a lot of util is used to guarantee things that might not need guaranteeing, you just wanna make sure nobody is gonna be there. In the round with the shower smoke sliggy was talking about, if you wanna argue like TMV it got no value bc nobody was there, but if they were it would've been massive and thats how util is used. Same could be said with a lot of the uses of the ult and pick me up, sure the health didn't "technically" matter, but it damn well could've and it increases that player's chances of winning the next 1v1 if they maybe don't shoot perfect. TMV has a lot of smart and analytical things to say and knows what hes talking about, but hes obnoxiously blind to how this util is being used lmao
Nah u gave a bad example If u throw raze nade into a corner and there is no reaction u know its 100% empty (unless u miss or something) but with meddle u dont know that, they can still just sit there until the decay end So in the end you still need to check it anyway😂
This argument doesn’t hold up though, because in maps where he tracked other agents, he also didn’t count things like raze nades that hit nobody (but cleared an angle) as value. If he counted meddles like that, he’d also be counting nades like that, and the floor for all utility value would go up across the board, but it wouldn’t give Clove util an advantage. Also you can tank a meddle if nobody clears you, you can’t tank a raze nade, so your examples fails on two levels lmao
the clove hate is over the roof. skye dog clears space - value. clove ult clears space - no value. clove put smokes while alive - no value (??????). so then any controller has no value. clove ult in lamps so funny - value on meddle and ult, TMV: smallest amount of value. yes, clove should have killed all 5 to get a bit of value there. highly delusional from TMV, makes me think his calculations about clove only having value in 2-8 rounds out of 100 played is way WAY off.
@@JustFloo. Oh yeah I do understand that. Its just the fact that wasted skye util is called as "value" and clove smoke assists are not. A bit hypocritical. P.s. very nice video, loved it!
@@teoriskai A Skye flash can also bring value, I dont want my ult to be a skye flash though. I want my ult to have more value than basic abilities, which is why clove ult is bad. It's value but it's not value worth thr ult points
@@corvetteguy2223 clove is a bad agent, the “good cloves” in your games arent good because the agent is good, its because they’re inherently a good player. their (clove’s) kit is very selfish, which is a big red flag for a controller that’s supposed to be an assist/teamplay kind of role, everything about clove’s kit is about THE USER outpreforming the lobby. so no, clove is NOT a good agent, it’s just the good cloves you met are cracked players / even smurfs.
@hellothere8381 I think you're forgetting that selfish abilities are incredibly good in ranked play. Clove had to be nerfed recently because they had such a high win rate in ranked, and reyna has been a problem in valorant for years because her selfish abilities are so potent in regular play but utterly useless in pro play.
love seeing them argue without talking to eachother
average british banter
They really should stream together idk why they don't 😂
TMV banter when malding is always top tier, does it so well with anyone, plat chat should seriously do a TMV vs Sliggy debate session in the off season, ace attorney style
@tron3747 that would be hilarious
@@JustFloo. Oh definitely, we have two definite debate cases, TMV supporting Wingaman, Sliggy supporting Clove
They're too funny, fuck man I wish Brits were real
The contrast between the two povs is hilarious 😂
thank you for making this, the dramatic irony of them basically trolling each other (more like sliggy is doing all the trolling), without hearing each other is amazing. love that both were counting throughout the whole map
@bluemilkteee haha yeah. It was so funny seeing them both talk about the same thing but having completely different opinions.
The "no value" at 7:56 LMAO
The Clove hate is real. This is fun to watch
it has a value as a normal ability not a value of ULT
@@madclownzz1985 how is the value the clove got there any different to a gekko ult
@@madclownzz1985 if a yoru ult runs through site and clears space it still got value, same with a raze rocket, if it gets a kill thats great, but if it forces them to give up space its still a win, obviously you want a kill of it, but even if it doesnt get one the space is still a win, in the same way as with clove ult, ofc you want the res, but u can use it like a pheonix ult and clear so much space with it that without a kill it still gets value
the scale of "if it has or doesn't have value" is different for an ult. If a ult only gets low impact info, it shouldn't be counted as value.
@@joehicks929The case with yoru ult is that u can tp back to safety and use ur util and info that u gather all over again. This case of clove is like if ur using raze ult and got insta sniped mid air, or using yoru ult and just cancel ult in front of the enemy to die instantly. Thats clearly not an ult lvl value.
"What , are they gonna play single somkes viper???" Broke me , poor sliggy
This is what makes TMV entertaining 😂😂. He malds so much
Classic tory man's valorant. Hateful as ever.
tory mans valorant lmfao
@@corvetteguy2223 lmao
hates clove for being non-binary, but still likes the NB icon Omen. Hypocrite?
pessimism vs optimism 😂😂
this perfecly demonstrates how personal prefference/bias in how a game should be played ties into what you think is value. top content and both are right btw
It's an interesting debate because it's clear Clove's value is extremely complex and it's all about reducing the punishment of risk
I think TMV argued that the concept of providing utility after death isn’t so meaningful when you’d have more value being alive, anyway, no matter what agent you’re playing. Being okay with dying isn’t the smartest playstyle, even if you can provide util after death.
I guess his point is that a 5v5 retake is more ideal than a 4v5 retake where the Clove died early in the round trying to be Reyna.
Picking Clove just to play aggressively isn’t the best choice; you’re better off with Reyna or Iso. For double smokes, you’re better off with Viper or Omen.
Put simply, with everything considered, a living Omen is still much likely better than a dead Clove. Or a live Clove, even.
@@whereami. yeah. And that point very much stands, Sliggy didnt even argue it on platchat lol. This fnatic bind game was more fnatic playing well than clove being good. TMVs definitely got a point, the smoke range is just too much of an issue for most maps in my opinion. You just cant smoke the other side.
@whereami. clove is that good because you can take some risk to win a round and if the risk fails you can still smoke. But you saw in this game that the clove had not many situations in which she did take a risk and got a advantage of it. So the usage of clove in this game was not really based of Sliggy arguments.
The rest of the abilities like meddle nearly don't matter so yeah a omen flash would be way better.
@@whereami. Those are good points but you’re only talking about the bad instances where Clove dies early. What about all the rounds where Clove can get a first kill because they’re able to be more flexible/aggressive on their role?
I agree that I’d rather have an Omen/Viper over Clove right now, but I do think people are discussing the agent with too much bias (both positive and negative)
@@Lucio20
Clove being more flexible and aggressive on the role of controller sort of contradicts the roles, if anything. Clove can smoke after death, but what about all the times a Clove wished they died a little closer to the other side of the map because their smokes are out of range? Or better yet, what if they didn’t die at all trying to take the first fight because that’s a duelist’s job, not a controller’s?
Clove’s design is a controller that leans close to being a duelist, but it just means they’re a worse controller _and_ a worse duelist. In fact, since Clove’s kit is deliberately selfish and their smokes are shorter range & duration, they’re basically forced to be proactive and aggressive to find meaningful value that another controller can’t find. Sort of like how Sage doesn’t really act as a sentinel because she can’t truly fulfil that role; you gotta do specific stuff with Sage to get value. Just as it’s easier, safer and more reliable to pick another sentinel over Sage, there’s better options over Clove. Unless it’s ranked and you’re filling smokes, but this is VCT.
Clove seems to create a weird middle ground between an aggressive comp and a double smokes comp where there’s better agents for either of those comps, so the middle ground is kind of awkward and problematic.
I’d guess Icebox is likely Clove’s best map - with Icebox being the most poorly designed map - and even then, there’s probably better agent options.
I reckon you’d have to be on Paper Rex levels of aggression to get some good mileage out of Clove before counterplay gets figured out. And even then, there’s always better, safer options you’re leaving behind.
To give Clove some credit, I do remember FPX running it down on Icebox at hyperspeed with Clove ult available. Which was good, and I can see other teams trying it, but I’d expect that to be antistratted soon enough, like everything eventually. That strat relies on the ult; the rest of the kit seems too lackluster.
Have sliggy and TMV on next platchat and make kurt run this video as preshow waiting screen 😂
Clove smoke after death is similar to omen tp where it allows you to take an off-angle without the risk of one, because smoke characters play safer due to how important having smokes are but when it’s clove, it doesn’t matter. So teams have to clear more angles and have a harder time executing into sites and even if the do get the clove, it doesn’t matter.
MTV looks for direct value from the abilities like decaying an enemy and killing them or using a pick me up to survive. Slug takes into account the mental aspect of playing the agent like confidence to swing cuz you know you’d be able to smoke if you die. IMO I feel like I lean towards mtv’s take.
@@the_monarch2172 agreed, the confidence and the ability feels too situational for now to be worthy of picking up in pro play but maybe that could change with tweaks.
I do like having it in ranked, I know my teammates will push anyway, might as well have a smoke.
Sliggy is a great master baiter though
I love how Eggshow is just snacking away in the background during the TMV rant
ive been mentally keeping note of cloves value in games since watching that tmv video on it
Honestly man, as much as clove is fun to play, i can't help but agree with TMV lmaoooo
Watching TMV cope is just too good
banger video the cuts are so on point
Thanks man. appreciate the comment
Sliggy counting normal smokes is so tilting bro that wasn’t the point man 😭
but at the same time TMV isn't counting emergent situations in terms of map control/pressure/disruption in which the value isn't as tangible but still exists solely because of what clove can do whereas sliggy was counting those. TMV was definitely coping on some of those "no value" calls lol
They weren't playing the same game either way
for all you fellas the if you know you know was GE playing solo viper on bind im pretty sure
@mossmaiolo316 yeah
Honestly I understand sliggys pov it's basically like not being tied down by the leash of being a controller, a controller typically has to stay alive and almost be a lurker so they don't die but clove is fine dying so it takes off a big weight from the team
TMV actually just hating clove and giving them no value when there is obvious value is hilarious 😭😭
Great editing! Keep the sliggy content comming ❤
Thxx
library of liggy
4:05 Global esports my international indian kings
Watching live was the funniest thing 😂
10:52 talk about poor guy trying so hard to not admit singular value of the agent lmao
I fully agree. Just play any other agent and it would be much better. Fucking play Omen man. Except for certain pros being comfortable with not worrying about util and fullt focused on their mechanics and game sense.
Im not sure who i agree with... They both make valid points about the exact same scenarios. Im not good enough to tell whos right.
All of the sudden yoru ult useless
I have no clue what riot was going for when they released clove, only thing I can think of is a smoker geared for ranked.
Her pick me up requires a kill and doesn’t last long, the meddle can’t actually clear corners nor does it fly far, the ult is easily countered when the opponents are coordinated, even her smokes dissipate the quickest, even faster than a harbour cove. Smoke after death is cool, but as a controller won’t u try to stay alive and provide way more value throughout the entire round anyway?
@@Sugarist0 TMV that you?
@@realEpicGold fortunately British ppl don’t exist irl so no
*their
@Sugarist0 the good thing about clove is that you can take some risk to have a higher chance to win the round. But this was not really the case in that game.
I'm with TMV on this one
I agree with tmv on this one. Like 90% of the time the value that clove creates would also be created by any other controller, but the other controllers have way better smokes overall.
It does seem like tmv is just a clove hater.
But he is also right that the most value is alfa has a smokes agent he looks comfortable on much more than viper
real ones know tmv is right and they should buff astra
Sliggy counting smokes (while alive) as value is crazy when brim omen and astra can all do the same thing is wild 😂 the unfathomably rare Sliggy L
@westhefitting4105 yeah I mean he is just baiting half the time haha
You can hear the sarcasm in his voice so actually sliggy W. However when clove is dead the smokes are value.
I mean idk abt pro play, but at least in ranked clove gets tons of value lol idky he’s hating on the agent this hard.
TMV is right here, stop glazing sliggy, he is literally giving points for normal smokes nay smoke character can do
TMV take L this round xD
its value coz the smoker is dead if it was any other controller you wouldnt be able to have any smokes at all??
Exactly 💯
WWW VIDEO YES!!!
@@royalknight2808 thxx
everyone forgets cloves movement speed its so broken but people dont even know about it
TMV bias is hilarious. What value would an omen have gotten in the cloves place?
flash ???????????????????
Tf are you smoking brother, omen is the controllee besides viper
@@fixihartmann9051 how many round would the omen flash have resulted in a kill or assist? If that’s what he’s basing it off. Also can’t open the TP with omen. Only consistent value would b fake TP and one ways
@@archanagavli8628 yes but most of controllers value comes from their smokes anyways. If you take away omens smoke what value is he getting from his TPS? From his ult? And based on TMVs definition of value how often do you actually get an assist from paranoia. Definitely not every round
@@tobe.moemekabut omen flash is definitely one of the best abilities in the game. Clear a site? Omen flash, hold a site? Omen flash? Having a setplay? Omen flash. It just has a long enough and wide enough range. Also why on earth would u take omen smoke away from omen? That's his value, he has unique oneway, unique smoke mechanic (like timing oneway), it's just part of his kit
The only thing I will say, TMV is 100% wrong about the no value ult round. Alfa took a risk flanking because he knew he had ult and could still smoke after death. He gets a kill. Uses ult and then just runs to the site with no hesitation, clearing all the angles while his team mates follow. He could only do that as clove, it’s value.
How is that impact tho? He’s using the clove ult as a bonafide skye dog what does that ult do that a skye dog doesn’t?
Tmr is fully correct because if your agents ult is literally just a skye dog what’s the point of using them? Omen gives you a quick rotate/getting spike. Brim gives you an orbital laser. Astra gives you a giant smoke you can’t shoot through. Clove ult gives you nothing that makes her better than the other three.
the death after smoke doesn’t really matter because you never want your smokes to die first and if the site they died at was stacked you have to hit it with short smokes or rotate and lose the advantage of having more smokes
Not just that but he didn’t even fully clear the angles he just ran to the site far ahead of his team forcing them to check the angles anyway in case someone took a timing
@@WitheredW I'm not comparing between agents. I'm not saying whether Clove is better than Omen. I'm stating what is and isn't value. Cloves ult and using smokes after death allows u to take risks. That's what Sliggy was saying the entire time. What Alfa did was take a risk, knowing he had ult. That is value. And compared to a skye dog it was Alfa, Afla has better vision than the dog. Has a vandal, and if he got a kill would've stayed alive. "the death after smoke doesn’t really matter because you never want your smokes to die first" except that is only the case for every other smoke except Clove. Clove can die first, if the player takes a risk, gets two kills and then gets traded. They still have the smokes for retake. That is value.
@@WitheredW Its the same way if Phoenix ulted and didn't see anyone but allowed the rest of his team to get space. Its basically a better skye dog and TMV counted skye using dog through the tp even tho it didn't see anyone. Its the same thing.
@@unincognito3689 Your forcing your player to play a style that depends on taking risks that is extremely risky in this game it worked because vitality were not shooting back but any team that is shooting back is more than capable of shutting down that player. And then when that happens the players has no impact because they get shutdown every time they take said risk.
Also taking a risk isn’t a clove specific playstyles every character can play like that just because she can smoke after death doesn’t mean you want to play a 5v4 retake with the shortest smokes in the game.
nice vid bro
imo both tmv and sliggy are a bit delusional and biased but sliggy def is right
Thx man
I mean both are baiting a bit and streching it for content
I feel like TMV does a lot of bad faith arguing about the value, like a meddle thrown into a corner that nobody is in gets as much value as a raze nade doing the same thing but you never see anyone complain "oh that molly was a waste" when it effectively cleared the corner/made it easier to clear. In pro play a lot of util is used to guarantee things that might not need guaranteeing, you just wanna make sure nobody is gonna be there. In the round with the shower smoke sliggy was talking about, if you wanna argue like TMV it got no value bc nobody was there, but if they were it would've been massive and thats how util is used. Same could be said with a lot of the uses of the ult and pick me up, sure the health didn't "technically" matter, but it damn well could've and it increases that player's chances of winning the next 1v1 if they maybe don't shoot perfect.
TMV has a lot of smart and analytical things to say and knows what hes talking about, but hes obnoxiously blind to how this util is being used lmao
Nah u gave a bad example
If u throw raze nade into a corner and there is no reaction u know its 100% empty (unless u miss or something) but with meddle u dont know that, they can still just sit there until the decay end
So in the end you still need to check it anyway😂
This argument doesn’t hold up though, because in maps where he tracked other agents, he also didn’t count things like raze nades that hit nobody (but cleared an angle) as value. If he counted meddles like that, he’d also be counting nades like that, and the floor for all utility value would go up across the board, but it wouldn’t give Clove util an advantage.
Also you can tank a meddle if nobody clears you, you can’t tank a raze nade, so your examples fails on two levels lmao
the clove hate is over the roof. skye dog clears space - value. clove ult clears space - no value. clove put smokes while alive - no value (??????). so then any controller has no value. clove ult in lamps so funny - value on meddle and ult, TMV: smallest amount of value. yes, clove should have killed all 5 to get a bit of value there. highly delusional from TMV, makes me think his calculations about clove only having value in 2-8 rounds out of 100 played is way WAY off.
Haha
He doesn't count normal smokes cause they are the same as other controllers. He is counting the difference.
@@JustFloo. Oh yeah I do understand that. Its just the fact that wasted skye util is called as "value" and clove smoke assists are not. A bit hypocritical.
P.s. very nice video, loved it!
@teoriskai if you mean the Skye dog into bath, that's not wasted. They got info that there is noone and can focus on short.
Thanks :)
why are we comparing ult vs basic ability lol
@@teoriskai A Skye flash can also bring value, I dont want my ult to be a skye flash though. I want my ult to have more value than basic abilities, which is why clove ult is bad. It's value but it's not value worth thr ult points
TMV is being a little bit disingenuous honestly.
LOL its hilarious but TMV is just plain wrong. But the yapping is hilarious
clove is still an awful controller and if i see my teammate run her in ranked i will be flaming them
They're good in ranked. The value is purely mental in pro play. Even reyna is better.
@@corvetteguy2223 clove is a bad agent, the “good cloves” in your games arent good because the agent is good, its because they’re inherently a good player.
their (clove’s) kit is very selfish, which is a big red flag for a controller that’s supposed to be an assist/teamplay kind of role, everything about clove’s kit is about THE USER outpreforming the lobby. so no, clove is NOT a good agent, it’s just the good cloves you met are cracked players / even smurfs.
@hellothere8381 heavy disagree. All the abilites are useful in ranked.
@@corvetteguy2223 yes its very useful in a selfish way, not in a teamplay way as a “normal” controller are
@hellothere8381 I think you're forgetting that selfish abilities are incredibly good in ranked play. Clove had to be nerfed recently because they had such a high win rate in ranked, and reyna has been a problem in valorant for years because her selfish abilities are so potent in regular play but utterly useless in pro play.