Orchestration Tip: Timpani Phrasing
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- Опубліковано 1 бер 2022
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On behalf of all timpanists everywhere...THANK YOU!!!
I once asked my conducting prof. why Toscanini always sounded so good. "What did he do to make it so exciting and alive?" Answer: "His timpani were always in TUNE! Not just 'close'"
As a percusion player...I'm amaze by the accuracy of the video issue.
I would say that any orchestrator who isn't percussionist, as well as the ones who are should see this video to understand the timpani functioning in every context.
Excellent stuff Thomas. Thank you so much, on behalf the percussion world.
I'm honoured by your words, Frano. All I do is to make scores better for the players from the composers. It's great to hear that I got it right.
@@OrchestrationOnline I'm the honoured one by your teachings, Thomas..., thank you besides for your reply.
As a percussionist I totally appreciate this video
As its author, I'm grateful for your comment.
Perc 🔛🔝
As a percussionist and orchestral timpanist for about 22 years now, just hear the fourth movement of Nielsen’s 4 as background music from the very beggining, i can say that you really understood what we really like to do when playing with an orchestra.
As a high school timpanist I 100% agree. I hate it when a piece expects me to play 7 different notes in the span of 2 measures.
If I have a long rest and the notes stay the same, I do sometimes switch over to a simple percussion instrument. I loved playing a Phantom of the Opera piece because it told me exactly what to tune to and even when I had to switch to Slapstick I had enough measures to retune the kettle
I’m not a professional timpanist but I have studied it at the collegiate level. Everything here makes sense. Especially the thing about note values. If you write rests timpanists will dampen and cut off notes. If you write longer notes they won’t. So, if you want sustained connected passages you have to write it like you would for any other instrument. You cannot get away with approximation like you can with something like glockenspiel or cymbals where a player may let the instrument ring through a rest if dampening isn’t specified. And yeah if you wasn’t something extremely specific you had better notate it, write in a note, and make super obvious. Otherwise the player will make whatever assumption is easier or makes sense to them musically. There’s a lot of gray area, such as playing location on the head, which drum gets what pitch, mallet selection, dampening choices… if it ain’t 104% obvious, write it in. But then on the flip side, make sure what you write is possible and what you reeeeaaally want.
Brilliant. I know little about timpanis - but have always loved that Nielsen work. Great seeing the score as well.
Henry Blixenblox, eh? 😂
That may have to be the title of my first Timpani Concerto in which the timpanist dashes boldly across the stage to play a surprisingly tricky oboe solo for 16 measures while the oboist taps the triangle ... albeit, just once. Maybe, after the timpanist's exhausting oboe solo, one of the second violinists could be kind enough to reach waaaaaay back and continue the timpani part with her violin bow.
Sounds like I'll need to channel Victor Borge for that one. 😂
Toooo funny, Laura~! ♥
He deleted his facebook account. LOL.
As a pianist-composer I appreciate this video immensely. Working daily with sample libraries (CS) I love this kind of insight, especially when it comes to final score and parts preparation. Mr. Thomas, thanks so much for clarification on note durations in parts to achieve “legato” effect. Very valuable point :-)
Thanks so much for this explanation! I've learnt a lot in this 10 minutes!
Carl Nielson s Symphony No 4 is such a challenging piece for the 2 timpanists at the end at a fast 3/4 tempo
I would like to add that timps should not be scored with "obsessive retunings". Last year I was handed a part from a "well respected contemporary composer" that had 124 retunings. The part was junk. It was obvious this "composer" was just plugging in notes in to his computer without thinking about the real instrument. Many of the other percussion parts were just as bad. In summary, give the timpanist ample time to retune and reset. This is especially true if rehearsals are short or in a recording sessions where everything is "get in and out".
Man, these videos are incredibly informative, but they also make me nostalgic. ... In my role conducting pit orchestras, I'm often called upon to reduce orchestrations to match the production's scale, venue, and budget. This can result in some wild demands. None greater than the time my poor reed player (primary instrument, tenor sax, but very capable on all the single reeds) had to bring *seven* instruments with him every night. And when he wasn't juggling all of those (and three books), I needed him to play a cymbal roll so the percussionist had both hands free for the muted triangle part in the last beat. Sounded great though!
This is really helpful. Thank you.
wow. I genuinely thought that the timpani is just to make some background deep noise in the orchestra, or to emphasize the rythm. I actually needed this video, im trying to write down an orchestral piece with timpani in it, and all this information was usefull. Thank you
Love your animations.
Also those guidelines for the whole orchestra would be worth an extra video.
Out of interest, why do you specify a 28" drum when analyzing the Schuman? It is far more standard to have a 29" drum.
Because I'm old-school, and grew up in a long-ago era when kettles tended to be a bit smaller. Hopefully there's no harm done here, as I doubt most timpanists will interpret that section of the tip as exclusive of more generous sizing.
excelent ¡¡
I'm not a timpanist, but it's one of my favorite instruments.
I highly recommend analyzing the tympani part of the works "Santa Cruz de pacairigua" by Evencio Castellanos and "Antetación e imitación fugaz" by his younger brother, Gonzalo Castellanos; without a doubt a melodic, rhythmic and even solo use that is worth seeing.
I would also recommend analyzing the Venezuelan nationalist music of the 20th century, it has an impressionist style with high rhythmic quality
Thank you for the recommendations, Carlos!
@@OrchestrationOnlinefor me, it would be a pleasure to share the score of both pieces with you :)
So, what you're saying is, Timpanists should double on the horn in-between entries, got it
Concert music isn't my world, and I appreciate the note on screen mentioning other forms of music and timpani playing, but I think more could have been made of the fact that band and theatre percussionists double timps alongside thousands of other instruments, and it doesn't seem to bother them.
But like I say, concert music is a form I have hardly any familiarity with, and Thomas is of course the expert.
It is the toughest for the timpanist to "Bring" the note (sound effect) out precisely!
In my national orchestra we even treat violonists as percussion 😂
Thomas I'm a bit confused now. Previously you had said what I understood to mean that the timpani's tuning did not matter so much because (to paraphrase) it takes on the intonation of the rest of the orchestra. I had since been taking a more liberal approach to my timp scoring often using notes that were a 4th or a 2nd or some other non-chord tone because it was easier than re tuning. But now you are saying the microtonal differences in intonation are very important to the timpani? Help me understand.
Hi iTzNoxy! Tuning in sympathetic relationship to pitches still requires exact intonation. What's more, hitting related pitches or adjacent pitches is a special case, which one might assume would not be happening all the time, because remember the other tip that "Timpani is (not) a Bass Instrument." If you're doing that from time to time, no big deal. If you're doing it all the time, not so great. But you're still possibly okay. Nothing that I wrote before should be taken to assume that the timpani's tuning didn't matter so much. It's just that from time to time a related or adjacent pitch may substitute for a quick change.
Overall, I would definitely recommend making sure the timpani are playing chord tones. A lot of older orchestral works would use non-chord tones to avoid retuning, but more frequently they would just omit the timpani when the orchestra moved out of the key it was tuned to. At a college level and up, it's pretty much expected that all timpanists will be able to do melodic pedalling, so fast tuning changes (1-2 measures) isn't really all that crazy. It definitely does add difficulty, but it's just a part of the job.
The only situation I would recommend simplifying the timpani tuning is when you are writing for high school level ensembles and below. At this level, just tuning the drums can be enough of an issue, asking for multiple retunings in a piece could be overwhelming depending on the level of the timpanist.
I think the largest flaw with a lot of composers is the range notes are placed in. I've noticed that a lot of composers will concentrate their notes in the lower range of the drums. One piece I'm playing in band at the moment has the tuning of Eb2, Gb2, and Bb2. Due to the speed of the passage, pedaling isn't super practical. This places the Eb on the 32", the Gb on the 29" and the Bb on the 26". According to the PAS, the accepted range for timpani is D2-A2 (32"), F2-C3 (29"), Bb2-F3 (26") and E3-B3 (23"). When you see the ranges laid out like that, it should be pretty clear that the tuning that was requested in that piece is not particularly strong. All of those notes sound very tubby and lack the clarity they would have higher in the range. If we played with two 32" drums it would be fine. The Eb is very low in the range but there's not much that can be done about that. The Gb is really pushing the range of the 29", but would sound great on a 32". And the Bb on the 26" is kind of insane. It's technically within the range of the drum, but in typical playing, I wouldn't go below C3. C3 sounds okay on the 26", but the drum doesn't really start to shine until you get higher in the range. But if it were a 29" playing that note, it would again sound great.
Anyway, I say all this to say that tuning changes are fine, but composers need to stop putting notes so low in the range. They're just hurting themselves. Mid to upper range will always sound clearer. Going below the middle of a drums range should be thought of as a special effect.
@@mattheasboelter5217 Great perspective and also a good confirmation of my Timpani Tuning Shortcuts video in which I recommend that composers learn more about the value of centring pitches.
@@OrchestrationOnline My favorite trick when I used to play was to sing into the drum, humming softly. When it was in tune with the pitch I was singing, it would resonate!
OK- quick question- I have this percussion part where I'm in a jam- I have only 3 percussionists, one of them is timpani. The notes I want played can't be played by the other 2 players, and the timpanist is unoccupied for several bars. Is it totally taboo to ask the timpanist to pick up the claves and play them just for like 4-5 bars????
Just two tiny little claves- they don't even have to leave the timpani- and play like maybe a dozen notes give or take?
What if I PINKY PROMISE TO NOT ask them to play ANYTHING ELSE but timpani FOR THE REST OF THE OPERA?
Theatrical music, especially a small-scale opera score, can be a little different from a concert score in how the roles are divided between percussionists and the timpanist. I would suggest you consult your client orchestra's percussion section, and write in the clave part in the main percussion score and also as a possible ossia for the timpanist.
@@OrchestrationOnline Thank you, sir. I actually don't have players yet and don't have any percussion friends I'm in touch with anymore. It's still a spec score in progress, but I'm trying to keep the number of orchestral players as low as possible as I imagine when we put it on we'll be lucky to afford even a tiny number of the players I'm writing for. I'm thinking when/IF it first gets staged it'll most likely be a canned score/mockup, or a mix of synth players/recordings and live players. Think of Jonathan Larson in "Tick Tick Boom"... that's a little like me and my playwright friend right now. (Except... I'm trying to get an orchestra instead of a 4 piece rock band. LOL)
@@OrchestrationOnline But your info is very useful. This is indeed not a symphonic context, this is more a musical theatre context, so as usual your knowledge is greatly appreciated.
7:16 what instrument is this? It sounds amazing.
That's erhu - a violin-like instrument from China.
Thanks for the love for long-haired people. It’s little details that can mean a lot.♥
lag time is big time
This comes off super pretentious in the first half. Timpanists are percussionists. They are not above the rest of the section. "Multiple Percussion" is a thing. In fact, one of the exciting things of playing percussion is taking on the task of covering multiple instruments.
Of course, a composer needs to be aware that timpanists are often switching mallets and tuning during rests, but don't pigeon hole them.
Perhaps you missed the screen in which I list the many instances in which timpani does trade off, and where I give guidelines to the orchestrator in case circumstances dictate that the dedicated timpanist must double on other percussion. As far as it being "super pretentious," you'll have to take that up with the pro timpanists and percussionists who advised me on this tip. They're not telling me that they're "above" anything - merely that their job is more complex than simply watching them from the audience during a tacet might suggest to the audience member. If they want to focus on that job during a demanding series of passages, I am going to listen to what they say. I even point out that the context of the warning is during demanding passages, and not a complete blotting-out of any kind of doubling ever. I think you misinterpreted my tip, M R.