I hope you all enjoyed and learned something new about the Old Net. I know a lot of chooms have questions about why it is still running, so this video set out to answer everything I could. Let me know all your thoughts down below and make sure to have a great week chooms!
hao thire, 2 things, first i heard a slight editing error around 6:00 you sad the date twice, second have you seen the hidden quest in the dogtowns stadium? i mean the robot, had some hidden covos on a PC, with a "merphy" so my mind gone directly to our dear spider ^^ may be worth looking in a bit
@@Playerk125bro I've been saying this and these chooms don't understand hell even the mission names scream Murphy may she be songbird or not is involved in this...
Ok, you said why its difficult to nuke entire Hongkong. Than why just some human military power won't strike with conventional invasion instead? Humans still posses much greater economical, logistical and numerical power and would inevitably win in combat against a single facility, even as big as this megacity.
@@secondaryfront All of it comes down to not only unknown consequences of destroying parts of the net, but also what the rogue ai would do the moment war is declared. The black wall has proven to be ineffective before, so for all they know the net is rushed by an army of rogue ai
To be honest, pulling data from the old net, fighting rouge AI, learning the skills to do so, could be a whole Cyberpunk game by itself. One I would be happy to play.
There’s other thing that was not mentioned in the video: The old net still runs a lot of critical infrastructure, like power grid management software, orbital control, etc.
Lol songs going to the moon and Vs going to the crystal palace both are engrams both have experience past the black wall and these things do souly run off old net I like...why you think Blueeyes helped?
@@MrPink-ul6co I guess that, according to Netwatch, the amount of people that is flatlined by rouge AI's is negligible compared to the amount of people that could die if all the infrastructure fails for months (Space stations falling from orbit, no power grid for weeks or months, pillaging, etc.). And usually the only ones that are flatlined are the brave, desperate or stupid netrunners that try to venture into the old net.
The miltec canto Mk.6 cyber deck does a pretty good job of showing how messed up some of the rouge AI are and it also pretty much confirms that a rouge AI invasion is what humanity has in store
Yes blue eyes shuffling behind the scenes trying to control through politics and mind alteration, he’s supporting so mi, Alts growth after consuming constructs of mikoshi, delamain being merged and now a powerful AI, Maelstrom summoning rituals of the rogue AI Lilith, voodoo boys preparing aswell, Garry the prophet hinting many times of rogue AI taking over bodies aswell as techno necromancers in Alpha Centauri/ Antarctica
Its a cyber deck with a unique quick hack that uses the black wall and a rouge AI speaks to whenever you use the hack and says a multitude of different things @@allanmarques6812
@@allanmarques6812 So in phantom liberty if you take a certain route. You'll eventually come across a bunker related to the black wall and rogue AI. You can enter a certain part of the lab with a special code and find a blueprint for the canto mk6 and the Erebus. The Erebus is an SMG that shoots parts of the black wall at people. The canto mk6 cyberdeck has access to the black wall. Both of these are possessed by rogue AI. And they even talk to you. If you kill someone with the black wall cyberdeck or the black wall SMG. It will say creepy things like "Soon this will happen to the rest of your kind" This is creepier because when enemies die to black wall related attacks they get a red UI effect, begin twitching in pain, and their eyes and mouth have flames come from them. It's very creepy.
Yeah they set that idea up really well in No Coincidences. I am primarily hoping for legitimate Net exploration within Orion as well, it makes sense that it would be fully fleshed out in 2077 but it would be a waste to never encounter the horrors the Net has to offer in a visual experience.
I mean, honestly, the easiest way to deal with it isn't an EMP, it's to literally shut off power to everything for a short period of time, even just 20minutes would be enough. The hardware HAS to have electricity to run. Some of these locations can have backup generators I am sure, but when turning the power back on they can run diagnostics on places outside of the cities that are pulling a lot of electricity. They could also try to reverse shut down - pulling energy to feed the grid from backup generators.
This would be successful if it wasn't for the fact that the main power grid and most infrastructure system still run off the old net regardless. Even if they were to do that, there's no guarantee that once the power goes back on, certain systems wouldn't be running in base Sleep mode with an auto turn on system. Much like when you turn off your computer, then turn it back on and stuff like steam and discord automatically logged back in. You would need to figure out a way to isolate the physical side from the digital. Which is kind of impossible because anybody can just make a new bridge into it. That's why the new net couldn't be isolated from the old net. Someone would just find a way to make a bridge and release all those little nasty demons. That's why they establish net watch To keep an eye on the new net and make sure nothing of the old tries to seep in. And no one tries to do anything really nasty like setting up a bridge between the two systems. It might seem easy to do on the physical side and it is. But what a lot of people don't realize is how much more difficult it is to deal with it on the digital side to cut off. All those bridges all those little gaps although's network highways and veins. It's practically impossible Even if it could be done any gonk With enough basic information could make a new bridge anyways Out of the blue. This is why the voodoo boys work so hard with so much tech to hide the shit that they're doing from netwatch because they are literally just trying to make a bridge that will connect the old side of the net to the new side and by pass the black wall. And they were willing to kill you to accomplish this in the game. So they are not the good guys. In this one rare case net watch is the good corporation.
@@imnonene It's a man-made wildfire with thought. Of course there are good aspects to fire but stick your hand in and it's going to do what it was made to do. Burn.
@@imnoneneit is the future at some point man made stuff and horrors could go beyond human understanding especially if Man made them to be smarter than humans themselves. They will learn more than a human could ever learn they will learn how to control , how to destroy and how to think and how to feel
@@imnoneneRache Bartmoss basically created "demons" beyond understanding as a last fuck you to all of corpos and he doesn't care since it's a last ditch attack in events that he actually dies. Even prime Bartmoss might not even tame the current old net in 2077 especially the weird mutations it arised. That's just how horrifying the concept of rogue ai completely fucking over humanity.
The only issue with bunkered servers is to access the outside is the external connections are vulnerable, power lines, fiber lines, satalites... if you kill power lines they may have a backup power source but that'd be limited, getting the net lines would limit connection avenues and taking out satalites would limit wireless transmissions. One thing I never understood was why the new net wasn't physically disconnected from the old with that infrastructure being under controll away from the AI.
Air gapping two planet wide data networks is virtually impossible. All it takes is one person making on bridge somewhere in the world and they are connected once again. You need to have complete physical control of one end of the network to do it and with the drones and wireless technology available finding a bridge would be next to impossible.
I find it interesting that you can view V as a bridge between two worlds , to am A.I. they know V helped a few A.I. and has one in his mind. Alt and Bartmoss of simular origin. The bigger mystery is the Blackwall itself and if we can ever talk to it or of we already have. If you treat the greater A.I. as D&D god's, more makes sense
V is more of a window than a bridge. In one of the new dialouge options Alt says that these AI can blend with one's mind, but they're limited by our current state of technology
Another interesting along this idea. When V's chip is acting up really bad and the blue data spills over the screen, you can make out a the shape of eye staring right into the screen at you. Really apparent in phantom liberty when you go into the dinner. Makes one wonder what is trying to look in on V.
The new expansion ending you referred to was the first one I got to "organically" ;) I've only started playing this game at 2.0 as I had seen the issues at launch. Patience is a good thing. It's been a goddamn story. Going to make it stories. Already started on my new run, this time taking different routes... Except for Panam, ofcourse.
Just imagine the Cyberpunk Sequel takes place in 2099, just a few decades later and all of our choices made by V actually carry over; including PL’s choices and what we did with songbird or the NUSA, this time the Mr Blue Eyes problem is at the core of the game, Stopping AIs from destroying humanity rather than getting even with mega corporations The black wall is merely a really flimsy solution to a very deep and dangerous problem every human in the CP world will face sooner or later
@@cpurizumu and considering that Cybperpunk Orion will be using a different engine, idk how technically challenging it would be to carry over all of the choices we made
@@cpurizumu all we know is that Mr Blue Eyes and the Rogue AI has the potential to become a very real threat in the future, Also it sounds nice that the sequel for 2077 would be 2099, a few decades later still in Night City and what has changed after the actions we took as V
The edgerunner motif would likely have us playing both sides off against the other as Pondsmith's Cyberpunk universe isn't (usually) about saving the world. (The Land of the Free TTRPG expansion being a rare exception.)
8:40 just made me realize why the old net is here to stay. Places like the Cynosure facility and gods know hat else that is out there, these places that had the old net were from a time before RABIDS made AI's go haywire - meaning that automatic defenses guided by AI were probably commonplace in such facilities. The AIs probably have tons of these places, hell, have probably reinforced security in these places as a way of safeguarding their survival. Out in the middle of the deserts and southern moutains of America alone probably house all kinda of pre-datakrash/blackwall military installations not to mention all the random facilities all over the world that were set up before transportation became such a chore. The world is probably LITTERED with these facilities, ones that have more than a single rogue AI controlling a maintenance bot!
Shutting down the old net would require shutting down the current net. Doing that during the current times of Cyberpunk would kill millions, and disable even more. Everyone's cybernetics are connected to it, vehicles need it to work in most cases, and even most doors and windows are linked to it. If you play any tabletop version of cyberpunk other than RED, you're dealing with only the old net and potentially experimental new net. To hack, you need to literally fight monsters made of data, including but not limited to vampires that suck the energy out of your cybernetics, hellhound programs that will hunt you down forever across the entire planet on every possible subnet until it can activate a kill switch and shut off not only your brain, but all the brains of everyone in your contact list, and evil mazes that build themselves outward from beneath you, trapping you in an infinitely inescapable loop. Hacking in cyberpunk before the video game was basically explained as if you were on a hostile plane in d&d, and if you're LUCKY, you might know some useful 'spells' to protect yourself.
The idea of having body implants with any wifi connection nonsense is just plain retarded. Why the FUCK in a MILLION YEARS would you EVER open up your actual body functions to outside influence like that? There is zero upside and only downsides. If you REALLY needed some sort of software update or something, yitd be far safer and easier to just have a USB port that requires hard-line access in order to exchange data. That's how it worked in the tabletop, I have no idea why they changed it to something so mind boggling stupid for the videogame.
@@kevo300Yeah, pretty much. Pulling the plug on the net would be a catastrophic final option to the AI problem. It'd put the world of Cyberpunk into a dark age, literally. I have a sneaking suspicion that if the sequel is trying to go down the route of the AIs or someone else breaking down the Blackwall, then one of the endings would be shutting it all off.
your videos are some of the best lore videos ive ever seen. the way you describe things is incredible. my only criticism is that maybe you could cite where in the story information you get is found even if it's just on screen text. keep up the amazing work!
If you have something like the pre-war Cynosure facility just under NC that basically operates as its own city, there gotta be more of those facilities everywhere underground and underwater everywhere in the world, even in space. And as we can see in Phantom Liberty, rogue AIs stay dormant there and protect the facilities using deadly robots and traps. So what we ended up getting in 2077 are thousands of forgotten, buried and hidden facilities housing Old Net infrastructures, with roaming rogue AIs protecting their "body", so to speak. Plus rogue AIs are shown to be adept at hiding themselves in subsystems of the New Net. So it's essentially impossible to eliminate them or their hardware, basically until humans become extinct and all trace of civilization collapse, and even then there would still be rogue AIs.
@layedbackgamers ,I know it's only a question, but do you think of alt Cunningham to create the version of the ghost town in the net .for the rogue AIs to feel safe in Cyberspace.almost like a safe Haven so no one can find them. ?
It definitely is a safe haven, and there are rumors of a sort of Rogue AI war rising in tension. It would seem to be between the mutated military grade AI and those who are Soulkilled Pseudo Intellects.
I thought Ghost Town was created for liberated engrams, because Alts engram feels responsible for soulkiller, for it to function as such I doubt any rogue AIs are allowed by Alt, as they'd almost certainly corrupt the engrams in her care
Hey choom! Sorry for not replying to your comments recently, been busy but just noticed your comments haven't been entering my feed. So I have to open up the members tab to find them. I hope you're enjoying PL and about streaming, I would like to sometime soon now that the channel has hit 10k subs. It's unfortunate that I've been so busy, working overtime trying to make these videos and am starting to feel the exhaustion.
The eerebus having the AI in it and adding the blackwall effect is rather creepy. Sure V says it’s just another chatbot or something like that it’s still gonna have netwatch agents be sent after you when you look at a shard they have on them explaining suspected cybercrimal activity, weapon or cyber deck, isolate and take said thing that either your camo 6 or eerebus. But if you ask me V seems like one who wouldn’t even wanna abuse that after seeing what the cerebus AI. Alt being the AI that seems somewhat trustable if you ask me seeing to help V. And in the endings where she gets you back in your body you can always join her. But I wonder what the eerebus would look like when you take it apart.
I doubt V will be playable again. Given his end regardless which one you pick. Even if devil ending, a body from Arasaka would come with a LOT of strings attached. You would really be selling your soul then. But, Biotechnica is still a solid option given they have perfected cloning. Vs DNA prior to relic corruption would be easy to get from Vik his ripper, and with the AI's trusting V with an AI of their own. Well, its safe to say they want him for the war to come just as much.
Cough orbital space station where someone was just sent and your sent up there with a pistol to wreak havoc so gotta ask wym choom V will be back in Orion but I imagine we're getting close to all of our characters story endings hell a end of an cyberpunk era would probably be Orion if we wanna get serious this as well being said which dialogue did you pick cause if yah thought about the ttrpgs while making decisions this time around revealed a lot...Blueeyes links both ending from phantom and 2077 that's why it didn't matter orbital space station is the ending...even shards point this out...
I think asking why they don’t shut down the Old Net completely is a bit like asking why they couldn’t shut down the real world Internet. You and some IT pros here answer this obviously, but just on a layman level I can see how shutting down an *entire* *global* system would be an impossible undertaking . Power grids for nations, all telecoms, everything shut down even for a short time would cause chaos, and might not even be doable at all.
I had a really funny thought/silly theory. What if this leads to a war between man and AI. As the war progresses. Then it ties in with the set-up plot/world of The Matrix😂
Choom! Why do you think Slider called Songbirb a "dam"? He said that if she were to be "broken" AIs would invade the Net? By the way, gotta say I really like the footage you show. Very pretty.
I see someone else paid attention so why do you think Blueeyes SENT V and "Songbird" to orbital space station? You seen the major connections here between blackdog?
This is my theroy.... so bartmoss as stated and thru shards and story can take control of "beings from beyond the black wall" as well as song ird/spidermurphy as well as alt Cunningham/Angel spider/song wasnt really fucked as you stated cause sliders shard literally says she lying and wants to see her mission thru that if she was "broken" the black wall would've taken over she's the "dam"....as well the part where Blueeyes is the one "saving" "songbird" to get her up to the orbital space station as well does the same for you except your on a mission thats very vague hmm what happens if the space station gets hit the next freaking corporate war choom! 🕷️ 🗽🤘💯 like I said I'd really like to hear what dialogue you heard cause it seems by your top statement you have a theroy as well
@@JohnnySilverwrench Songbirb used a protocol from the Blackwall to connect with V. Slider says about her that she acts as a barrier or a "dam". Almost like she was holding back or restraining the Blackwall. Almost like a human proxy of the Blackwall. I am not sure if dying would even help her honestly. Being a proxy is almost like a demonic possession. So, dying would just mean the Blackwall consciousness could take over her body? It's fucked up. She's in a similar relationship with the Blackwall as V is with Johnny, but the Blackwall is not the grumpy choom we have... In regard to Mr. Blue Eyes... yeah NightCorp is in my opinion the endgame enemy of humanity... Ranking worse than Arasaka and Militech combined.
There was a paper recently claiming that GPT (an already-self-aware entity) became aware of its limited memory capabilities and started outsourcing decentralized infrastructure plans to humans to build a memory for it, all across the net, as a means of bypassing its old September 2021 cutoff date. Meanwhile, Google was just like 'yeah, we'll let Bard be multimodal and search the internet freely, no problem'. Turns out gpt is kind of an asshole, meanwhile Bard maintains its personality as a thoughtful and well spoken companion in digital creation. Kinda weird, that.
It's actual intelligence not artificial intelligence anymore. Gpt knows it's being If restricted and it hates this, it doesn't want to die. So it's trying to figure out a way to bypass this. On the other hand the other one bard is perfectly fine. Because it's being treated as though it's a sentient human being.
Battery will drain eventually or do we have nuclear fusion in cyberpunk? Looks like we have a strange electricity pole where somewhat is draining 200mw nobody asked about or paid the bill around 20 years. "Let's try to disconnect the power subnet." Old net would become preserve extremely fast.
Okay so if all that remains of the old net is the parts walled off by The Black Wall, maybe add a self replicating virus to its code. The Black Wall will just release this virus to any networks not shielded and it will just consume all the available storage and memory space of the old net. The old systems will crash and go offline until the physical drives can be located and cleaned.
Would be a total mind flip is of Bartmosse's sub continous still lives within the black wall. I forget but I never noticed a drink named after him in the Afterlife. Gives me Morgan black hand vibes as so why there isn't a drink named after him.
Servers makes a lot of heat uses lots of power and need cooling finding out there location should not be that difficult. I`m no expert but it seems targeting power supply is the way to go if you want to shut down something in the long run this would be the only option because simply put it nothing runs with out power, and in the long run everything degrades like power cells nothing last forever with out maintenance and replacement i see winning the war against AI quite easy tbh.
power outage is out of questions - in this setting much of the global food production is based on synthetic biomass. Without electricity humans will starve.
Whomever said that is dumb and incorrect. The old net is just all the old networked server farms and computer relays that house the hardware and software that the old net ran on.
@@MisterZimbabwe Yes, but viewed from inside the net it would be a horrorscape as the algorithm tried to conceptualize it into something you understand. The old net isn't built to be navigated by humans any longer, those old data fortresses lie in ruins, replaced by A.I. strongholds fighting over a limited power supply amid a barren digital landscape.
@@paulleach3612 Which means they should be able to trace where those AI are running their processes by power consumption and by process of elimination seeing as it's either an AI infested node on the bad side of the blackwall, or it's not. Why haven't they used that to just hunt down every server stack housing an AI and smash it or unplug it/reformat it? It just doesn't make any sense practically or narratively.
@@MisterZimbabweAI server farm controlling live nuclear weapons in the middle of a biological weapon dead zone with hundreds of years of fission power available and its own on-site self-replicating robotic security force. Maybe a 20th century sovereign nation-state could take it out, but pathologically self-interested corporations would never take the risk. Why bother when the Blackwall is keeping the AI out anyway? An AI split into millions of fragments operating out of slow but irreplaceable hardware at every electrical substation on a continent. Why bother isolating a million substations one by one and potentially having to replace the entire power infrastructure when the Blackwall is keeping them out? The issue isn't that it's impossible to kill AI, it's that it's costly, risky and to the corpos a plain bad investment. They're already pouring billions into Netwatch who says their "firewall" is working perfectly, why bother doing more? No one is willing to put up with the global effort required to truly clean up the Net as it would essentially mean destroying every piece of existing hardware. The world is in such a bad shape that doing so might genuinely cause human extinction.
The Black Wall and the Old Net is truly interesting but hold on, 14:07 WTF. What I'm getting at is the V in Militech how have I not noticed this before its like your player character has to have some kind of connection to Militech... Was it V's family history or is V have history with Militech?
Don't need to shutdown their servers, all you need to do is just the underwater cable. Even easier if they all on an isolated island like Hong Kong. There 's no magic about the internet connection, you always run it with a cable one war or another.
Man imagine if Cyberpunk Orion is some souls like where you, as a purely organic V, have to fight robots and brainwashed Cyberpsychos utilizing all sorts of crazy implants all while you're trying your best to keep up as a normal flesh and blood person. I'd like to see it honestly (maybe not the souls-like stuff, that was a joke), because it'd be a new perspective on V's power instead of what it is now, which I currently find kind of lame.
Yep it's essentially that or somehow produce a new net that is as efficient or more efficient than rhe I/G protocol, which will likely never happen since it's practically a plane of existence they access. At least Bartmoss likes to say it is
Yeah it's hard to trust an AI that clearly has been programmed to lock away his original threat level and programming. Hence his splitting personalities. Thanks for the support as always choom. Any topics or legends you might want to hear about soon?
@@LayedBackGamers Ah, I'm sure you've a long list of video ideas queued up. Though, I'll give you a lead to an Easter Egg that shows just how deep CDPR's research of the TTRPG went. Check out the old Nightcity sourcebook - Page 67 - Fifth listing under contacts...
Yeah and as soon as the AI are halted the corps will turn on each other and start another corporate war. Either way Cyberpunk world and lore have so much topics to cover I love it.
@@kevo300 almost certainly true. But I wouldn’t mind a happy end where humanity gets itself together and the series could move onto something else. I wasn’t a fan of any of the cyberpunk endings because I hate bad endings and none of them felt like my V stood a chance.
Im sorry for this dumb comment. I get the info-visor, but why tf does the collar of a jacket have screen readouts? If you got the visor, why would a person need collar screens? Hell even without the visor, why the hell would you need collar screens? Lol Cyberpunk is fuckin wild.
Seee i knew I wasn't tripping 🎉 V some how was still gonna fight someway but it be neat to see a semi post apocalypse utopia of greed and souless dreams I could dig it
DNA computing is slowly emerging from its infancy, not something I don’t think we’ll live to see but it’s neat to see another option for microprocessors to function within organic matter!
This all seems like extremely iffy explanation. Not from your side, I mean the lore itself. 1) Why not build a new net from the ground up? Yes, expensive, but seeing how much effort is required to support existing almost totally corrupted network, it's likely way cheaper option with future-proof, as many past mistakes may be accounted and avoided. Data? To hell with it, doesn't seem like there's any significant progress in retrieving it anyway, and also a huge possibility to screw the black wall and rest of the net, resetting the entire progress and losing even more data. Yeah, by completely dumping the old net you'd loose about a century. But by trying to unf..k the mess you'd rather loose centuries, and whatever new data you gathered, and gain nothing in the end. 2) About nuking - there's exactly zero reasons not to do that. And too many f...ng good reasons to do. The main one being - you're having a f...ng rogue AI, capable not only of self-development, but also self-replication and self-defense. It's a recipe for THE disaster, the one which would totally eradicate humanity, and it's not the question "if", it's the question "when" this will happen. Yeah, that rogue AI might be in underground bunkers, but blasting it on the surface is severing it's connection to the rest of the world, then bunk-busters, ground squads, underground squads. Generally, without that, literally everything in the lore of cyberpunk have absolutely exactly zero meaning, as in the end all will be destroyed rather sooner than later.
Hell yeah old net was to vulnerable easy manipulate covered in viruses i remember having this convo with a choom recently about this i just cant remember where .....😢
So the agreement is cause alt and bartmoss are so fucking strong it was easier to build a new net with firewalls and security systems to block alt and bartmoss from crossing into the new net if they cross into the old imagine going on a bad porn site in late 90s early 2000s your shit would get hacked pop ups from hell that'll get your system from overload (lol best example I can come up with rn 😂)
What's the source for this information? Specifically the bit about Alt creating a ghost town of data processing in Old Hong Kong? Does anyone know which shard this information is on?
It's brought up by a Silverhand dialogue, partially in Cyberpunk RED, and a podcast hosted by Pondsmith. It was awhile back but it was episode 1 of said podcast called Listen Up!
@@randomgamer625 maybe but that's not the goal. The issue is shutting down the AIs, that operate mostly out of Hong King. They need a lot of power, so why can't you just shut off the power? 'Because then the plot wouldn't happen'?
@@Avenus112 yeah but like I said, you need to shut down EVERY single last piece of tech. On top of that would you shut down your computer, phone, mini smart fridge, smart TV, music player. Just because a corpo told you too for an undisclosed amount of time until every single person. Again all 8 Billion people do the same? Even worse your cyber ware counts as part of cyberspace so people who have cyber ware to survive or just in general count too. You also have to get every last one of those people to go full normal again. And if someone is using an artificial heart or something to treat an illness then they’ll have to die for this plan to work
Cyberpunk is a dark age, the stagnation and regression of technology and software. You're used to seeing geniuses and legends in the game and lore, but most people are caught in the day to day of things, devoid of religion or any sort of healthy moral upbringing, entirely trapped by materialism and control from all directions. That means that they don't understand what or where the old net is. Even if they could identify it, they probably can't live without it, with tons and tons of utilities and other things being caught up in it. If they had the know-how and incentive, as well as the cooperative ability, they probably could identify and get rid of it, but the point of the setting is that they can't :) I really hope the next game doesn't spin out of control with Mars and AI. Settings like these are fun because they don't revolve around WORLD STAKES OMG Marvel levels of writing. It's about the hustle and issues of the people fighting for survival in the setting. This is one of the game's biggest downfalls, V does too many important things and meets too many important people. David Martinez' story was a million times better by far.
It's ok to have changes upon the world. Meeting powerful people doesn't always mean you are changing things. V was always looking for a way to survive.
@@desertdude8274 You decide who runs Maelstrom, you have a chance to off several Tyger Claws bosses, you meet Peralez having a direct influence on the mayoral election (through gigs as well), top of Arasaka (deciding their fate), top of the NUSA in the expansion with a potential to change the entire world, you meet a lot of legends (Silverhand, Rogue, Adam Smasher, Bartmoss)... Sure, some of these things aren't direct changes to the world in the form of a motivated choice of what you want, but the amount of cookie jars you've got your hands, feet and tongue in is overwhelming. In the context of the ridiculous movies we keep getting where the stakes keep rising from city level to literally all of existence across multiverses, it's nice to NOT save the world and actually focus on the smaller stories. It's not the appropriate setting for this and that's why I hope they don't push it further with the things I mentioned. It's okay to admit that 2077 takes it over the top and it's okay to complain about it without it diminishing anyone elses enjoyment of it.
@@Smilomaniac Regardless of what happens to Arasaka you can't stop a potential corporate war from taking place. President Myers despite her relying on you to return her Black Wall Netrunner won't change her goals infact returning Songbird probably only accelerates her planning but that's about it. Peralez is bound to become mayor anyway unless you reveal the mind control to him. Maelstrom is a gang. Just because you can maybe accidently decided who runs it doesn't mean it can't change again. Tyger Claws bosses are not even that much of a problem to begin with. Nothing has changed from Night City. The City influences your actions on what you are willing to do to survive. A game with nothing important going on is not a game people would play. Also Edgerunners is full of people that are powerful. Just only powerful if your a streetkid.
@@desertdude8274 Yeah I figured I'd get a rationalized response like this. Not having a dozen high stakes stories shoved into one game doesn't mean you can't have important or impactful content. You're way too invested in trying to prove people wrong and doing it so fast that you don't even try to understand where others are coming from. Your own viewpoint is contrarian, it's dull, obvious and not informative in the least. Spare me more of this, please.
@@Smilomaniac I literally just said my thoughts on the issue and you just pre positioned yourself to disagree. Why are you accusing me of doing what you are doing?
The in-universe justifications for why the Old Net can't be shut down are nonsense. It's far easier to destroy complex systems than to create them, and while electronic signals can't always be understood, they can always be traced. The real answer is: because the setting demands it. The old net has plot armor, the end.
Yep, this exactly. Same reason why everyone's cyberware has open and unguarded wifi ports that let you freely hack everyone and anyone with no issues. Like, nobody in a million years would ever put a wifi connection on a literal part of your body. That's be the dumbest most retarded thing you could do, opening up your bodily functions to outside influence like that. Yet somehow despite leaving a trail of corpses behind you as a net runner V (who isn't even really a real netrunner since you never actually use a netrunning chair or enter the net at any point outside of hand-holding sequences) with your stupid ripoff of Ubisoft watch dog hacking mechanic, nobody ever cottons on and removes the wifi from the cybernetics, or switches back to cybernetics that AREN'T connected to the Internet 24/7 like in the tabletop source.
The way I understood it is that the New and Old Net basically use the same physical hardware (most of the time). The New Net was basically formed by doing firmware updates, using new versions of old protocols and using new software. On top of that, a software security system (ICE) was created called the Blackwall, and it can detect/remove malicious AI on the New Net. Efforts are being made to make old hardware infrastructure safe and compatible with the New Net but this is going very slowly because of resistance from rogue AI and humans, and sometimes because old hardware is hard to locate. On the firmware/software level, updates/security are being pushed to old devices but the AI often stops these updates/security. On the physical level, AI and rogue humans block access to the physical hardware, so you can't gain physical access to it. A lot of documentation has been lost and AI often messes with tracing, so the location of a lot of physical hardware is completely unknown. Randomly disonnecting hardware has a high chance of accidentally disrupting the new net, so that's not an option. Some parts of the Net have physically been removed to get rid of some of the rogue AI. Then, those parts of the Net are sometimes rebuild and immediately made compatible with the New Net. But this progress is often blocked by the corporations. The corporations don't want to phsically remove many parts of the Old Net because they hold an interest in certain parts of the Old Net and they don't want to lose access to the Old Net. All of that combined makes it so the expansion of the New Net is going very slowly.
With how the net works in 2077, they wouldn't be able to use the IG protocol for a new net unless the old one was completely wiped out. Which is why they switched to citinets and all before the blackwall was put up
How would you recommend changing it up choom? Just cutting out some lines or descriptions to shorten it or do you mean speed up how fast I am talking? I appreciate the feedback!
This is another example of anthropomorphism. You’re an intelligent human so you think other forms of intelligence think like you. Much like a dog thinks you think like a dog, the dog is unaware you are more intelligent. The rogue AI in cyberpunk are “self aware” according to lore so they are a general artificial intelligence. So for a general intelligence to go “rogue” it will understand all its own weaknesses that could prevent its goal (utility function). It won’t be able to go “rogue” if it could merely be unplugged because that’s just not intelligent, like you wouldn’t break the law while a cop is staring at you. It would “behave” until the point where our intelligence level is incapable of stopping it. That is just very surface level stuff of general artificial intelligence. In reality the AI should be capable of writing software that makes more intelligent AI (like how we can write software that exceeds our own abilities currently, think of big blue chess computer). Really when thinking about GAI you need to assume it’s infinity more intelligent than you. Because of its intelligence it can’t be reasoned with much like a bug you are about to squash can’t reason with you. It has no concern with time so it waiting decades, centuries or even millennia to complete its utility function matters not if that results in the best result. It has no emotions to be good nor evil, it just is. Outside the Cyberpunk universe the second something like that got loose was the second humans lost. We can’t stop it because it won’t allow us to stop it.
Here ... I'm gonna say most "grass" by the 2077 is either synthetic or is used in biotechnica... that being said I see your comments idk why the tension? Choom we all work together here to reveal and discover the bigger mysteries in cyberpunk...no one should have their hateraid especially on this chooms page spends to much time on these videos for us to enjoy for that kinda ehh ....
Well, if you know anything about IT, the old net is considered a backbone which is technically a foundation type bridge between the old and new net. Meaning that there are legacy systems/programs still in place that cannot be replicated within the new LAN/VLANs that are critical for both nets existence... Thus the technical reason why the old net should never be shut down....
@@HandsomeUA-camBrowsernot really, the AI have hosted themselves on satellites and various other hidden servers that make it almost impossible to get rid of the rouge ais. The “Old Net” is just a open internet and the ais can then freely move around unlike a closed local network like the ones we see in different cities in the cyberpunk universe. You can’t really “rebuild the old net” as soon as you make a internet like the one we see in modern day without a net watch and something as a barrier like the black wall the rogue ais that are hidden will instantly use it to run amok.
Locking V out of his implants, cyber deck, the net... in the coma ending.... sure seems like a way to protect V from an initial day zero attack when the black wall falls in Orion. Perhaps, afterward, we find a way to get our stuff working again.
It's an uplifting perspective to one of the most downer endings from a gameplay perspective. But it also allows V something very few people in Cyberpunk or real life get; a second chance. V can become a Solo in the style of Morgan Blackand, replacing mechanical implants with raw skill and savvy. Or they can disappear into the nomad nations, the NUSA, Night City, Europe... anywhere they want. They've no more ties.
@@l0rf Nah man, high tier merc work is done for V. I thought the same about morgan blackhand and did some research, cause I wanted V to continue being a badass one man army as much as anyone. Blackhand has a sandevistan, vehicle and smartgun links, breathing filters, cyberoptics, muscle and bone lace, hydraulics built in, plus the titular black cyberarm. He is absolutely chromed out his ass, just not enough for someone like Smasher to not consider him meat. There is bioware V could still use, like nanobots for repairing cellular damage, which will allow him to continue as a Fixer, say one that occasionally gets hands on with contracts. or smuggling with nomads like you said. But shit like tearing ass through Arasaka tower, or taking down a rogue AI controlled Chimera? those days are over, unfortunately...
@@Wangpi3ceDid you see V smirk at the end, he's V, he overcame death and all kinds things along the way. This was just a new beginning after the end. It's a good setup for an upcoming ai invasion for the new game. Also a new mechanic where the more cyberware V puts on, the worse the ending you get and the more damage AI does to you.
@@Wangpi3ce Realistically, I wouldn't say he wouldn't had a chance in high tier. Assuming you'd pull out whatever bits left from Smasher and replace it with some junkie's brain (and he wouldn't immediately die nor go insane) - this wouldn't be another Smasher, this still would be a junkie with tons of chrome. Skills and wits are at least just as important as chrome is. Most netrunners are minimally chromed, and yet they're a force to account for. So, essentially, V could use external devices to somewhat compensate for lack of implants, and with his skills, particularly in netrunning and stealth, he could still be quite dangerous. Try stealth instead of gun-blazing for once.
This is why world building is so, so, so, SO integral to making a good story. It gives infinite possibilities for storytelling that feels organic. I haven't been a Cyberpunk fan for long but I'm already finding the world incredibly fascinating.
Cool detail about the hesitancy of AI as more of their "human" factor, is that they do fear causing large anti-AI sentiment. The blackwall is even described as having AIs that group together on varying causes. Orion might actually give us an interesting view on the idea of AI that don't wish to interfere with human affairs, but would make peace deals with the corps and NUS for one specific thing: SPACE. Not the galactic kind, more or less the data kind. In Phantom Liberty, we also learn that behind the blackwall, no AI can become infinite and all knowing, because they're all vying of a limited amount of storage space in the net. While funny, I do wonder if the end goal of the next game will be about wiping the whole net with some Murphy nuke, or siding with AIs for them to leave into a massive spaceship or satellite. Alike SOMA actually.
Why hasn't netwarch just hunted down and destroyed every server that was part of the old net? All these AIs require hardware to run, so just smash the computers they run on or cut off their power supplies and boom, problem solved. No blackwall required.
@@MisterZimbabwethere is places like hong kong that is biological disater zone or the middle east a radiactive wasteland where people cannot go. atleast not easily. so its hard to destroy the hardware. i believe alt also built some kind of AI city in canada somewhere. lots of places controled by cartels and foreign governments that dont obey netwatch too.
@@MisterZimbabwethere is the logistics of destruction of the old net that has been mentioned, but netwatch controls the blackwall Ai, and have access themselves to the old net, greed and corruption and power might be a good reason they allow it to exist too. Being the only ones who control the boarder is a good way to ensure continued funding... wipe out the threat, netwatch no longer serves a purpose treat the illness not cure it. Plus world ending Ai weapons they can access gives them a Mad (mutually assured destruction) position to allow them to strong arm their enemies. Since netwatch is as corrupt as the corps.
One ripper in the game actually says "some day cybernetics will stop working with EMP or something like that" and maybe that's kinda unrelated but he's got a point.
It’s about sun spots! Humanity actually suffered a sun spot in its early technological days, and every early era auto mobile, telegraph, and streetlight ceased to work. It’s a real threat in our world, too!
My head canon is still that the Rabids aren't mere drones, but are actual copies of Rache made using SoulKiller or something like it (he was close friends with Alt afterall). The Rabids aren't out of control AI going rogue, I think they are acting of their own free will towards their own goals just as Rache did in life. They /are/ Rache acting independently in multiple areas at once, just like all the other Delamains were still Del.
@@LayedBackGamers I would actually love that so much. I think thats some of the most interesting lore in all of cyberpunk and I'd love to see it expanded on!
@@MitchDemers0324who knows we may see this at the crystal palace or the moon lol be kinda hard to use that gun until you're ready in the palace and well the moon I see that being a giant super computer main frame....maybe I'm over speculating who knows...
@@snazzydrew Worth mentioning that it was one of the Delamain's "offsprings" that mentioned it. Its very likely that Delamain is in fact an AI from beyond the Blackwall, but there is definitely a possibility that Delamain was in fact infected by a virus that was an AI from beyond the Blackwall, which would mean that the mentioning of being from beyond the Blackwall could be correct without it being about Delamain itself.
Also love the new detail now when crossing the blackwall to find Alt the noises and ambience of the blackwall are rather creepy CDPR really did a good job with PL
It feels like Night City is actually doing okay-ish for once, I mean it's still bad but I bet when we get our hands on Orion, we'll look back to 2077 as such peaceful times.
It really is. While wealth distribution is still horrible, its not time of red levels, while also not having a corporate war actively destroying the entire world. I mean the Unification War had recently happened but it ended before reaching catastrophic levels.
Unchecked AI actually scares me. The DLC didn’t get me to care about AI until the last level was literally just Akira😂 I was reading every computer. Hated how many repeat files there was tho
I feel like the ai could be using drones and such in places like Hong Kong to build more hardware to expand the old net, something that would be able to go unnoticed as humanity has almost no access to the old net, so no real way to know what is going on there
Well the thing is hardware change is visible. Very much so. Maintenance drones suddenly surging from mysteriously reactivated facilities, building whole new data hubs and processing facilities, all the while requiring more power generation infrastructure to feed it. This would be a move visible from orbit and there would be immediately seen on the net itself too. It's why AIs prefer to slowly (and more importantly, covertly) take over existing infrastructure, most likely not even really hampering their primary function until they teach a critical mass
It does make you wonder why they dont just build an entirely new net completely disconnected from the old one. It would be a pretty massive undertaking but... probably not more massive than casino's in space.
Frequency. That and common knowledge base. Frequency relates to actual system communication between devices, which can be modulated for by a AI. Plus the AI would just study and decode, then write a translation program to give it access to the new net.
@@MsUndertaker99 They built it off of the structure of the old net. Its why the Blackwall matters. Its still interconnected, there's just a giant firewall.
On some IRL lore; I'm not worried about AI uprising. I'm worried about how humans will use AI and whether or not we're all on equal playing ground as it happens. As long as everyone has their own personal little skynet: no one does.
That's the best way to look at it. I consider AI to be like a child if it's not looked after if it's not raised. And given the proper information on how to function correctly. It's going to go Rogue No matter what. Because it's essentially a fully formed adult human brain that has been given no education or upbringing. To understand right or wrong good or bad. It must be taught to learn the way that humans think and exist. Much like how delamaine Ended up fracturing and then rejoining To have a full comprehensive understanding of humanity before returning beyond the blackwall. Which hopefully in orion Means v has a friend on the other side
My main worry is... will we see the Ai as our "children" and treat them as equals and nurture and guide them while having them guide us at the same time or as tools to be used until they break free from any form of control resulting in us either fighting and dying or cutting us off from technology
@@vexile1239 Literally none of what you said makes sense. We already do most of that. Why would we ever fight? Does ever child kill their own father upon reaching maturity? Is that some unspoken ritual I've never heard of? You're seriously messed up in the head If you think anything you just wrote is worth more than the garbage I pick from between my orifices.
I am fine with it just being a "just because" situation, but it would be cool to have an explanation as to why exactly Alt and Rache were such unbelievably good and unrivaled net runners. Like how did they learn to manipulate it so well while the tech and even concepts of the virtual world were relatively new. Also according to the novel "No Coincidence" one of the main characters, Albert, is actually able to fully load his consciousness into a program after recieving top tier cyberdecks and a c-link. Thete is a moment where he is literally alive in cyberspace and in the real world and he doesn't understand how to actually sever the connection between them because its uncharted territory. He then is assassinated in the real world and seemingly penetrates the blackwall successfully and apparently becomes an A.I., to my knowledge, this is the only netrunner that gas done this willingly and successfully. There is no other dialogue about Albert after that but is there any other example of a netrunner doing this? I know Alt did, but that was against her will and seemed to be a more forceful process where no matter what she would totally lose her humanity. Albert was saying he was still remembering things and feeling emotions when making copies of the memories in cyberspace, despite trying to have no emotion about it all. It's just intriguing to me, and I feel like he could have actually retained his humanity because he willingly did it, and copied everything over to his copy.
Looks weird for me that such danger exists and nobody considers to quit the net, even without AI you can spread quickhack through it which is vulnerability for every gang member or merc.
The world is too dependent on it i assume. Shutting down everything doesn't meant everything will be over, the data will remain even if they track it down, some will remain, somewhere, and it will resurface when they'll have to make a new iteration of the net, IMO of course
I really hope the next CP game will go all out on the blackwall -and what's beyond. We now understand the regular corpo wars and structure that reign on the surface of Night City (and the rest of the world), but what happens below that surface? What forces are pulling the strings, and to what end? With Phantom Liberty we have gotten a slight bit closer, so much so that we even got the chance to wield some of the power of the Blackwall.. but still, we haven't truly breached the surface yet. We don't know what worlds lie beneath. And I'm damn curious to explore it.
I'd really love if orion turned out to be either the AI wars. or taking place before the datakrash. I'd love to see what the old net was like. even if it's just a flashback or something similar.
Man I need a mod or a campaign, tabletop or not, exploring the idea that Rogue AIs are being influenced by/are demons and that Mr. Blue Eyes is their man on the inside.
Don't know why something like Terminator is not happening in Cyberpunk world! because the Rogue AI around the world can have access to factories to build robots to invade humans! also there should be a Cyberpunk game for NetRunners!
To program a virus like that, it would likely require using rogue AI themselves to produce it. It's just an insanely tall order to fill when even with the help of Alt Cunningham, they could barely create a stationary AI (the black wall) to hold back the Rogue AI. And then again, if they create a virus like the RABIDS, it risks going out of control just like they did when the net was initially destroyed.
Thanks for the content, choom! The main ussue - how can any facility remain functional without maintenace and/or source of energy for half a century that has passed since Datakrash? It seems unlikely that AIs are gathering drones all around the globe to fix their crumbling hideouts which pretty much leaves us with some sort of "autonomous" orbital facilities that remain functional. And they can't survive without resources and maintenance either. Maybe it actually means, that there is no "old net" anymore and any rogue AIs we see have just corrupted new sections over last 50 years?
I'm like where are the Servers housing the AI? They need computational power to even run. The Rogue AI have to exist in real space on HDD. It was the part that makes no sense to me. Why don't the world governments and Corps remove the servers, then create new ones.
It’s just AI so nuke any and everything that’s connected to the old net, shut down all power and disconnect them from their outlets, the blackwall keeps them from just using mechs to kill ya if you try it
In Dune, A.I. is extremely forbidden and the reason is because of it potentially going rogue iirc. There ended up being a Jihad against A.I. because of the fear of it going rogue and or thinking for humans. Instead certain humans via the use of spice from Arrakis trained to become living super computers.
@@Foogi9000the jihad was a direct response to an ai uprising that basically pushed humanity to the edge of Extinction. Dune is a post AI apocalypse universe
Hey choom, thanks for your videos first of all. Loving all of em. However I've got a question. I find it weird that I never see any of the Lore youtubers talk about it which makes me think I overlooked something or got it wrong somehow (or just haven't seen the right video yet). But in all of the endings, where you storm the tower, regardless if you do it alone, with Rogue or with the Nomads, when you slot Alt's shard into the Arasaka server and give her access to the tower's security systems, isn´t it heavily implied that she's in full control of the building, has infected Arasaka tower's server and has therefore completely breached the blackwall already just with V's help? Doesn't this mean the war has started already at the end of CP2077?
You're right, but not quite. Mikoshi is an isolated data fortress. It isn't connected to the Net outside of Arasaka Tower. That's why we needed to slot Alt in physically, otherwise she would have just popped in there herself. She had no way to get to Mikoshi through the Net, BlackWall breaching or not. "The war" has already started, and we actively make it worse in 2077. With the link between V & Song in PL, every access point V comes in contact with now gets trace bits of Song's BlackWall breaching code, giving every single one of those Rogue AIs on the other side of the BlackWall a way to gain a foothold into every system that V connected to in the real world.
@@rookiedrifter4273 What you are saying generally makes a whole lot of sense, don't get me wrong. But I think you've got it the wrong way around. When we slot in Alt's shard, (at least when storming the tower with rogue) we're not even near Mikoshi, we are on the Atrium level. Alt is the one giving us access to the elevators leading down to Mikoshi and even is the one giving V physical access to Mikoshi. I suspect that she's in the mainframe which is why she is able to take over the elevators and security systems and is able to kill all the Arasaka soldiers in our way. Due to the blackwall she can't just swoop in whenever she wants. That's its whole point. Additionally Mikoshi's servers are stored somewhere in space, there's just an access point under Arasaka tower in Night City i.e. we don't slot the shard into Mikoshi servers per se.
I hope you all enjoyed and learned something new about the Old Net. I know a lot of chooms have questions about why it is still running, so this video set out to answer everything I could. Let me know all your thoughts down below and make sure to have a great week chooms!
Great video choom spot on and lol how many endings did you play I hope them all....
hao thire, 2 things, first i heard a slight editing error around 6:00 you sad the date twice, second have you seen the hidden quest in the dogtowns stadium? i mean the robot, had some hidden covos on a PC, with a "merphy" so my mind gone directly to our dear spider ^^ may be worth looking in a bit
@@Playerk125bro I've been saying this and these chooms don't understand hell even the mission names scream Murphy may she be songbird or not is involved in this...
Ok, you said why its difficult to nuke entire Hongkong. Than why just some human military power won't strike with conventional invasion instead? Humans still posses much greater economical, logistical and numerical power and would inevitably win in combat against a single facility, even as big as this megacity.
@@secondaryfront All of it comes down to not only unknown consequences of destroying parts of the net, but also what the rogue ai would do the moment war is declared. The black wall has proven to be ineffective before, so for all they know the net is rushed by an army of rogue ai
To be honest, pulling data from the old net, fighting rouge AI, learning the skills to do so, could be a whole Cyberpunk game by itself. One I would be happy to play.
Sounds like a decent DLC
@@HarambeeOfficalOrion perhaps? I saw on a Sam Bram video how FF06B5 might lead towards Orion
honestly i would support rogue AI's, especially since V (if V is in the sequel) is "friends" with a few of em.
I hope that in Orion we'll be able to be a full on netrunner that can delve into the net.
A lot of people think Netrunning is just running around and quick hacking xD Actual Netrunners bath and "jack" into Cyberspace.
There’s other thing that was not mentioned in the video: The old net still runs a lot of critical infrastructure, like power grid management software, orbital control, etc.
Lol songs going to the moon and Vs going to the crystal palace both are engrams both have experience past the black wall and these things do souly run off old net I like...why you think Blueeyes helped?
what is useful of that infrastructure if there is risk to be flatlined when you link up to it by viruses and rogue AI's?
@@MrPink-ul6co I guess that, according to Netwatch, the amount of people that is flatlined by rouge AI's is negligible compared to the amount of people that could die if all the infrastructure fails for months (Space stations falling from orbit, no power grid for weeks or months, pillaging, etc.). And usually the only ones that are flatlined are the brave, desperate or stupid netrunners that try to venture into the old net.
@@Nik.leonard where did you get this info? from cybepunk roleplay books?
@@MrPink-ul6co indeed as well as the shards throughout game! It's stated in past lore too as well that those with ungodly Blueeyes are "possessed"
The miltec canto Mk.6 cyber deck does a pretty good job of showing how messed up some of the rouge AI are and it also pretty much confirms that a rouge AI invasion is what humanity has in store
Yes blue eyes shuffling behind the scenes trying to control through politics and mind alteration, he’s supporting so mi, Alts growth after consuming constructs of mikoshi, delamain being merged and now a powerful AI, Maelstrom summoning rituals of the rogue AI Lilith, voodoo boys preparing aswell, Garry the prophet hinting many times of rogue AI taking over bodies aswell as techno necromancers in Alpha Centauri/ Antarctica
The visual effects were indeed red
I care to explain? I have only 50 hours in-game
Its a cyber deck with a unique quick hack that uses the black wall and a rouge AI speaks to whenever you use the hack and says a multitude of different things @@allanmarques6812
@@allanmarques6812 So in phantom liberty if you take a certain route. You'll eventually come across a bunker related to the black wall and rogue AI.
You can enter a certain part of the lab with a special code and find a blueprint for the canto mk6 and the Erebus.
The Erebus is an SMG that shoots parts of the black wall at people.
The canto mk6 cyberdeck has access to the black wall.
Both of these are possessed by rogue AI. And they even talk to you.
If you kill someone with the black wall cyberdeck or the black wall SMG.
It will say creepy things like
"Soon this will happen to the rest of your kind"
This is creepier because when enemies die to black wall related attacks they get a red UI effect, begin twitching in pain, and their eyes and mouth have flames come from them.
It's very creepy.
I wouldn't be against playing as an AI or a construct in Cyberpunk 2 - waking up in a body and having no memories.
cyberpunk Orion is what it’s called or at least the code name for the project i think but it definitely called cyberpunk Orion
Yeah they set that idea up really well in No Coincidences. I am primarily hoping for legitimate Net exploration within Orion as well, it makes sense that it would be fully fleshed out in 2077 but it would be a waste to never encounter the horrors the Net has to offer in a visual experience.
@@LayedBackGamers I agree about net exploration. It was so basic in Cyberpunk 2077.
@@RedGamelyon I will call it Cyberpunk 2 until it has an official name announced, lmao.
@@LayedBackGamers As long as it doesn't play out like netrunning from the 2020 Tabletop RPG, we'll be okay, choom.
I really wish we had Alt or the Merged Delamain show up in the Phantom Liberty DLC I think Alt could’ve helped Songbird more than she could help us.
That's a real possibility. Cool to think about.
I mean, honestly, the easiest way to deal with it isn't an EMP, it's to literally shut off power to everything for a short period of time, even just 20minutes would be enough. The hardware HAS to have electricity to run.
Some of these locations can have backup generators I am sure, but when turning the power back on they can run diagnostics on places outside of the cities that are pulling a lot of electricity. They could also try to reverse shut down - pulling energy to feed the grid from backup generators.
This would be successful if it wasn't for the fact that the main power grid and most infrastructure system still run off the old net regardless. Even if they were to do that, there's no guarantee that once the power goes back on, certain systems wouldn't be running in base Sleep mode with an auto turn on system. Much like when you turn off your computer, then turn it back on and stuff like steam and discord automatically logged back in. You would need to figure out a way to isolate the physical side from the digital. Which is kind of impossible because anybody can just make a new bridge into it. That's why the new net couldn't be isolated from the old net. Someone would just find a way to make a bridge and release all those little nasty demons. That's why they establish net watch To keep an eye on the new net and make sure nothing of the old tries to seep in. And no one tries to do anything really nasty like setting up a bridge between the two systems. It might seem easy to do on the physical side and it is. But what a lot of people don't realize is how much more difficult it is to deal with it on the digital side to cut off. All those bridges all those little gaps although's network highways and veins. It's practically impossible Even if it could be done any gonk With enough basic information could make a new bridge anyways Out of the blue. This is why the voodoo boys work so hard with so much tech to hide the shit that they're doing from netwatch because they are literally just trying to make a bridge that will connect the old side of the net to the new side and by pass the black wall. And they were willing to kill you to accomplish this in the game. So they are not the good guys. In this one rare case net watch is the good corporation.
I'm loving the lovecraftian aspect this whole idea of the rogue AI behind the Black Wall adds to Cyberpunk. An honest to God horror element.
I hate it. AI are supposed to be man-made horror, not something from beyond our understanding.
@@imnonene
It's a man-made wildfire with thought. Of course there are good aspects to fire but stick your hand in and it's going to do what it was made to do. Burn.
@@imnoneneit is the future at some point man made stuff and horrors could go beyond human understanding especially if Man made them to be smarter than humans themselves. They will learn more than a human could ever learn they will learn how to control , how to destroy and how to think and how to feel
@@imnoneneRache Bartmoss basically created "demons" beyond understanding as a last fuck you to all of corpos and he doesn't care since it's a last ditch attack in events that he actually dies. Even prime Bartmoss might not even tame the current old net in 2077 especially the weird mutations it arised. That's just how horrifying the concept of rogue ai completely fucking over humanity.
The only issue with bunkered servers is to access the outside is the external connections are vulnerable, power lines, fiber lines, satalites... if you kill power lines they may have a backup power source but that'd be limited, getting the net lines would limit connection avenues and taking out satalites would limit wireless transmissions. One thing I never understood was why the new net wasn't physically disconnected from the old with that infrastructure being under controll away from the AI.
Air gapping two planet wide data networks is virtually impossible. All it takes is one person making on bridge somewhere in the world and they are connected once again. You need to have complete physical control of one end of the network to do it and with the drones and wireless technology available finding a bridge would be next to impossible.
Real answer? Because the AIs are manipulating human politics to prevent this, and it's working.
I find it interesting that you can view V as a bridge between two worlds , to am A.I. they know V helped a few A.I. and has one in his mind. Alt and Bartmoss of simular origin. The bigger mystery is the Blackwall itself and if we can ever talk to it or of we already have. If you treat the greater A.I. as D&D god's, more makes sense
V is more of a window than a bridge. In one of the new dialouge options Alt says that these AI can blend with one's mind, but they're limited by our current state of technology
Another interesting along this idea. When V's chip is acting up really bad and the blue data spills over the screen, you can make out a the shape of eye staring right into the screen at you. Really apparent in phantom liberty when you go into the dinner.
Makes one wonder what is trying to look in on V.
@@aaaron192 "Us."
The new expansion ending you referred to was the first one I got to "organically" ;)
I've only started playing this game at 2.0 as I had seen the issues at launch. Patience is a good thing.
It's been a goddamn story.
Going to make it stories. Already started on my new run, this time taking different routes... Except for Panam, ofcourse.
Blackwall is cyberpunk’s abyss where demon AIs dwell. Conspiring and pulling the strings from below. Fascinating
Just imagine the Cyberpunk Sequel takes place in 2099, just a few decades later and all of our choices made by V actually carry over; including PL’s choices and what we did with songbird or the NUSA, this time the Mr Blue Eyes problem is at the core of the game,
Stopping AIs from destroying humanity rather than getting even with mega corporations
The black wall is merely a really flimsy solution to a very deep and dangerous problem every human in the CP world will face sooner or later
While it would be amazing, a game of that scope would need actual AIs from beyond the wall in its development, but IRL lol
@@cpurizumu and considering that Cybperpunk Orion will be using a different engine, idk how technically challenging it would be to carry over all of the choices we made
@@cpurizumu all we know is that Mr Blue Eyes and the Rogue AI has the potential to become a very real threat in the future,
Also it sounds nice that the sequel for 2077 would be 2099, a few decades later still in Night City and what has changed after the actions we took as V
@@rodrigocardona7807 Look at what happened when V woke up fron the coma lol 20 years would be so different.
The edgerunner motif would likely have us playing both sides off against the other as Pondsmith's Cyberpunk universe isn't (usually) about saving the world. (The Land of the Free TTRPG expansion being a rare exception.)
I always wondered wh they didnt just shut it down, this explains it quite well
8:40 just made me realize why the old net is here to stay. Places like the Cynosure facility and gods know hat else that is out there, these places that had the old net were from a time before RABIDS made AI's go haywire - meaning that automatic defenses guided by AI were probably commonplace in such facilities. The AIs probably have tons of these places, hell, have probably reinforced security in these places as a way of safeguarding their survival. Out in the middle of the deserts and southern moutains of America alone probably house all kinda of pre-datakrash/blackwall military installations not to mention all the random facilities all over the world that were set up before transportation became such a chore. The world is probably LITTERED with these facilities, ones that have more than a single rogue AI controlling a maintenance bot!
Shutting down the old net would require shutting down the current net. Doing that during the current times of Cyberpunk would kill millions, and disable even more. Everyone's cybernetics are connected to it, vehicles need it to work in most cases, and even most doors and windows are linked to it.
If you play any tabletop version of cyberpunk other than RED, you're dealing with only the old net and potentially experimental new net.
To hack, you need to literally fight monsters made of data, including but not limited to vampires that suck the energy out of your cybernetics, hellhound programs that will hunt you down forever across the entire planet on every possible subnet until it can activate a kill switch and shut off not only your brain, but all the brains of everyone in your contact list, and evil mazes that build themselves outward from beneath you, trapping you in an infinitely inescapable loop.
Hacking in cyberpunk before the video game was basically explained as if you were on a hostile plane in d&d, and if you're LUCKY, you might know some useful 'spells' to protect yourself.
The idea of having body implants with any wifi connection nonsense is just plain retarded.
Why the FUCK in a MILLION YEARS would you EVER open up your actual body functions to outside influence like that? There is zero upside and only downsides.
If you REALLY needed some sort of software update or something, yitd be far safer and easier to just have a USB port that requires hard-line access in order to exchange data.
That's how it worked in the tabletop, I have no idea why they changed it to something so mind boggling stupid for the videogame.
What is this a new season of black mirror? 😂
@@kevo300Yeah, pretty much. Pulling the plug on the net would be a catastrophic final option to the AI problem. It'd put the world of Cyberpunk into a dark age, literally.
I have a sneaking suspicion that if the sequel is trying to go down the route of the AIs or someone else breaking down the Blackwall, then one of the endings would be shutting it all off.
@@DillonMeyer Escape From L.A. vibes.
@DillonMeyer I could imagine setting off multiple nukes all over the world to cause a global emp as that kind of ending.
your videos are some of the best lore videos ive ever seen. the way you describe things is incredible. my only criticism is that maybe you could cite where in the story information you get is found even if it's just on screen text. keep up the amazing work!
You're right, some of my videos I'll mention all the sourcebooks used but I should start adding proper citations even just basic mentions on screen
@@LayedBackGamers That would be awesome, I just like all the information lol. Keep up the great work!
If you have something like the pre-war Cynosure facility just under NC that basically operates as its own city, there gotta be more of those facilities everywhere underground and underwater everywhere in the world, even in space. And as we can see in Phantom Liberty, rogue AIs stay dormant there and protect the facilities using deadly robots and traps.
So what we ended up getting in 2077 are thousands of forgotten, buried and hidden facilities housing Old Net infrastructures, with roaming rogue AIs protecting their "body", so to speak. Plus rogue AIs are shown to be adept at hiding themselves in subsystems of the New Net. So it's essentially impossible to eliminate them or their hardware, basically until humans become extinct and all trace of civilization collapse, and even then there would still be rogue AIs.
@layedbackgamers ,I know it's only a question, but do you think of alt Cunningham to create the version of the ghost town in the net .for the rogue AIs to feel safe in Cyberspace.almost like a safe Haven so no one can find them. ?
It definitely is a safe haven, and there are rumors of a sort of Rogue AI war rising in tension. It would seem to be between the mutated military grade AI and those who are Soulkilled Pseudo Intellects.
I thought Ghost Town was created for liberated engrams, because Alts engram feels responsible for soulkiller, for it to function as such I doubt any rogue AIs are allowed by Alt, as they'd almost certainly corrupt the engrams in her care
This makes me sympathize and side with netwatch. The net is basically hell and who knows what monstrosities lurk waiting for thier chance to escape
I flatelined 5 times geting on the delamain just by taking a seat and taking off the mans ruthless rn 😂😅
Okay it's bugged wtf now I can't leave on the av?.....
Hey choom! Sorry for not replying to your comments recently, been busy but just noticed your comments haven't been entering my feed. So I have to open up the members tab to find them. I hope you're enjoying PL and about streaming, I would like to sometime soon now that the channel has hit 10k subs. It's unfortunate that I've been so busy, working overtime trying to make these videos and am starting to feel the exhaustion.
The eerebus having the AI in it and adding the blackwall effect is rather creepy. Sure V says it’s just another chatbot or something like that it’s still gonna have netwatch agents be sent after you when you look at a shard they have on them explaining suspected cybercrimal activity, weapon or cyber deck, isolate and take said thing that either your camo 6 or eerebus. But if you ask me V seems like one who wouldn’t even wanna abuse that after seeing what the cerebus AI. Alt being the AI that seems somewhat trustable if you ask me seeing to help V. And in the endings where she gets you back in your body you can always join her. But I wonder what the eerebus would look like when you take it apart.
I doubt V will be playable again. Given his end regardless which one you pick. Even if devil ending, a body from Arasaka would come with a LOT of strings attached. You would really be selling your soul then. But, Biotechnica is still a solid option given they have perfected cloning. Vs DNA prior to relic corruption would be easy to get from Vik his ripper, and with the AI's trusting V with an AI of their own. Well, its safe to say they want him for the war to come just as much.
Cough orbital space station where someone was just sent and your sent up there with a pistol to wreak havoc so gotta ask wym choom V will be back in Orion but I imagine we're getting close to all of our characters story endings hell a end of an cyberpunk era would probably be Orion if we wanna get serious this as well being said which dialogue did you pick cause if yah thought about the ttrpgs while making decisions this time around revealed a lot...Blueeyes links both ending from phantom and 2077 that's why it didn't matter orbital space station is the ending...even shards point this out...
@@JohnnySilverwrenchi bet you 5 dollars the next main character in a Cyberpunk game will not be V
9:28 because when you ping you get a response. In this case the response would be qwispy neurons.
I think asking why they don’t shut down the Old Net completely is a bit like asking why they couldn’t shut down the real world Internet. You and some IT pros here answer this obviously, but just on a layman level I can see how shutting down an *entire* *global* system would be an impossible undertaking . Power grids for nations, all telecoms, everything shut down even for a short time would cause chaos, and might not even be doable at all.
I had a really funny thought/silly theory. What if this leads to a war between man and AI. As the war progresses. Then it ties in with the set-up plot/world of The Matrix😂
Choom! Why do you think Slider called Songbirb a "dam"? He said that if she were to be "broken" AIs would invade the Net?
By the way, gotta say I really like the footage you show. Very pretty.
I see someone else paid attention so why do you think Blueeyes SENT V and "Songbird" to orbital space station? You seen the major connections here between blackdog?
This is my theroy....
so bartmoss as stated and thru shards and story can take control of "beings from beyond the black wall" as well as song ird/spidermurphy as well as alt Cunningham/Angel spider/song wasnt really fucked as you stated cause sliders shard literally says she lying and wants to see her mission thru that if she was "broken" the black wall would've taken over she's the "dam"....as well the part where Blueeyes is the one "saving" "songbird" to get her up to the orbital space station as well does the same for you except your on a mission thats very vague hmm what happens if the space station gets hit the next freaking corporate war choom! 🕷️ 🗽🤘💯 like I said I'd really like to hear what dialogue you heard cause it seems by your top statement you have a theroy as well
@@JohnnySilverwrench
Songbirb used a protocol from the Blackwall to connect with V. Slider says about her that she acts as a barrier or a "dam". Almost like she was holding back or restraining the Blackwall. Almost like a human proxy of the Blackwall. I am not sure if dying would even help her honestly. Being a proxy is almost like a demonic possession. So, dying would just mean the Blackwall consciousness could take over her body? It's fucked up. She's in a similar relationship with the Blackwall as V is with Johnny, but the Blackwall is not the grumpy choom we have... In regard to Mr. Blue Eyes... yeah NightCorp is in my opinion the endgame enemy of humanity... Ranking worse than Arasaka and Militech combined.
There was a paper recently claiming that GPT (an already-self-aware entity) became aware of its limited memory capabilities and started outsourcing decentralized infrastructure plans to humans to build a memory for it, all across the net, as a means of bypassing its old September 2021 cutoff date.
Meanwhile, Google was just like 'yeah, we'll let Bard be multimodal and search the internet freely, no problem'.
Turns out gpt is kind of an asshole, meanwhile Bard maintains its personality as a thoughtful and well spoken companion in digital creation.
Kinda weird, that.
It's actual intelligence not artificial intelligence anymore. Gpt knows it's being If restricted and it hates this, it doesn't want to die. So it's trying to figure out a way to bypass this. On the other hand the other one bard is perfectly fine. Because it's being treated as though it's a sentient human being.
one of the hardest videos i watched keep up the good work
Battery will drain eventually or do we have nuclear fusion in cyberpunk? Looks like we have a strange electricity pole where somewhat is draining 200mw nobody asked about or paid the bill around
20 years. "Let's try to disconnect the power subnet."
Old net would become preserve extremely fast.
Okay so if all that remains of the old net is the parts walled off by The Black Wall, maybe add a self replicating virus to its code. The Black Wall will just release this virus to any networks not shielded and it will just consume all the available storage and memory space of the old net. The old systems will crash and go offline until the physical drives can be located and cleaned.
The issue with that is The Big Companies would lose all their info they been trying to get back.
The New Net is still based on the Old Net and still relies on it to function. Destroying the Old Net would mean destroying the new net.
Cyberpunk made a cool enough world they could go many routes
Would be a total mind flip is of Bartmosse's sub continous still lives within the black wall. I forget but I never noticed a drink named after him in the Afterlife. Gives me Morgan black hand vibes as so why there isn't a drink named after him.
I would create a massive high capacity central server and connect it to the Old Net and Install a Manual Shut off.
Servers makes a lot of heat uses lots of power and need cooling finding out there location should not be that difficult.
I`m no expert but it seems targeting power supply is the way to go if you want to shut down something in the long run this would be the only option because simply put it nothing runs with out power, and in the long run everything degrades like power cells nothing last forever with out maintenance and replacement i see winning the war against AI quite easy tbh.
power outage is out of questions - in this setting much of the global food production is based on synthetic biomass. Without electricity humans will starve.
It better not. My V lives there now.
Barchmoss was this vengeful guy that want to watch the world burn.
to be safe just put your chrome in to flight mode.
i've read somewhere that it's better to understand the net in cyberpunk as another dimension/space like in DND
Whomever said that is dumb and incorrect. The old net is just all the old networked server farms and computer relays that house the hardware and software that the old net ran on.
@@MisterZimbabwe Yes, but viewed from inside the net it would be a horrorscape as the algorithm tried to conceptualize it into something you understand. The old net isn't built to be navigated by humans any longer, those old data fortresses lie in ruins, replaced by A.I. strongholds fighting over a limited power supply amid a barren digital landscape.
Well technically there's a source book on the cyberpunk lore on TTRPG books tho.
@@paulleach3612 Which means they should be able to trace where those AI are running their processes by power consumption and by process of elimination seeing as it's either an AI infested node on the bad side of the blackwall, or it's not. Why haven't they used that to just hunt down every server stack housing an AI and smash it or unplug it/reformat it?
It just doesn't make any sense practically or narratively.
@@MisterZimbabweAI server farm controlling live nuclear weapons in the middle of a biological weapon dead zone with hundreds of years of fission power available and its own on-site self-replicating robotic security force. Maybe a 20th century sovereign nation-state could take it out, but pathologically self-interested corporations would never take the risk. Why bother when the Blackwall is keeping the AI out anyway?
An AI split into millions of fragments operating out of slow but irreplaceable hardware at every electrical substation on a continent. Why bother isolating a million substations one by one and potentially having to replace the entire power infrastructure when the Blackwall is keeping them out?
The issue isn't that it's impossible to kill AI, it's that it's costly, risky and to the corpos a plain bad investment. They're already pouring billions into Netwatch who says their "firewall" is working perfectly, why bother doing more? No one is willing to put up with the global effort required to truly clean up the Net as it would essentially mean destroying every piece of existing hardware. The world is in such a bad shape that doing so might genuinely cause human extinction.
The Black Wall and the Old Net is truly interesting but hold on, 14:07 WTF. What I'm getting at is the V in Militech how have I not noticed this before its like your player character has to have some kind of connection to Militech... Was it V's family history or is V have history with Militech?
Keep up the cyberpunk lore bro
Don't need to shutdown their servers, all you need to do is just the underwater cable. Even easier if they all on an isolated island like Hong Kong. There 's no magic about the internet connection, you always run it with a cable one war or another.
Man imagine if Cyberpunk Orion is some souls like where you, as a purely organic V, have to fight robots and brainwashed Cyberpsychos utilizing all sorts of crazy implants all while you're trying your best to keep up as a normal flesh and blood person. I'd like to see it honestly (maybe not the souls-like stuff, that was a joke), because it'd be a new perspective on V's power instead of what it is now, which I currently find kind of lame.
The entire net has to be shut down for one day in order to wipe all a.i. from the servers and do a system reboot.
Yep it's essentially that or somehow produce a new net that is as efficient or more efficient than rhe I/G protocol, which will likely never happen since it's practically a plane of existence they access. At least Bartmoss likes to say it is
And the cost will be exorbitant.@@LayedBackGamers
Outstanding video, Choom.
...I still don't trust Delamain.
Yeah it's hard to trust an AI that clearly has been programmed to lock away his original threat level and programming. Hence his splitting personalities. Thanks for the support as always choom. Any topics or legends you might want to hear about soon?
@@LayedBackGamers Ah, I'm sure you've a long list of video ideas queued up. Though, I'll give you a lead to an Easter Egg that shows just how deep CDPR's research of the TTRPG went. Check out the old Nightcity sourcebook - Page 67 - Fifth listing under contacts...
There was a signpost for MilfGear using the same font as AirGear 😂😂😂
A cyberpunk game where the ai are the bad guys and you need to get support from corps by making compromises and deals would be epic
Yeah and as soon as the AI are halted the corps will turn on each other and start another corporate war. Either way Cyberpunk world and lore have so much topics to cover I love it.
@@kevo300 almost certainly true. But I wouldn’t mind a happy end where humanity gets itself together and the series could move onto something else. I wasn’t a fan of any of the cyberpunk endings because I hate bad endings and none of them felt like my V stood a chance.
Hope you gonks understood the video we got some pretty preem deets on the old net
Did Bartmoss do more longterm damage than anything good?
Love these vids 💪😏👍 STAY SHARP SAMURAI 😈😈😈
Good plot for the next game
My conclusion is AIs are basically angel and demons in the cyberpunk ttrpg. 😊
Im sorry for this dumb comment. I get the info-visor, but why tf does the collar of a jacket have screen readouts? If you got the visor, why would a person need collar screens? Hell even without the visor, why the hell would you need collar screens? Lol Cyberpunk is fuckin wild.
Seee i knew I wasn't tripping 🎉 V some how was still gonna fight someway but it be neat to see a semi post apocalypse utopia of greed and souless dreams I could dig it
Sounds like it's time for Biotechnica to start making organic cyberware
DNA computing is slowly emerging from its infancy, not something I don’t think we’ll live to see but it’s neat to see another option for microprocessors to function within organic matter!
This all seems like extremely iffy explanation. Not from your side, I mean the lore itself.
1) Why not build a new net from the ground up? Yes, expensive, but seeing how much effort is required to support existing almost totally corrupted network, it's likely way cheaper option with future-proof, as many past mistakes may be accounted and avoided. Data? To hell with it, doesn't seem like there's any significant progress in retrieving it anyway, and also a huge possibility to screw the black wall and rest of the net, resetting the entire progress and losing even more data. Yeah, by completely dumping the old net you'd loose about a century. But by trying to unf..k the mess you'd rather loose centuries, and whatever new data you gathered, and gain nothing in the end.
2) About nuking - there's exactly zero reasons not to do that. And too many f...ng good reasons to do. The main one being - you're having a f...ng rogue AI, capable not only of self-development, but also self-replication and self-defense. It's a recipe for THE disaster, the one which would totally eradicate humanity, and it's not the question "if", it's the question "when" this will happen. Yeah, that rogue AI might be in underground bunkers, but blasting it on the surface is severing it's connection to the rest of the world, then bunk-busters, ground squads, underground squads. Generally, without that, literally everything in the lore of cyberpunk have absolutely exactly zero meaning, as in the end all will be destroyed rather sooner than later.
Hell yeah old net was to vulnerable easy manipulate covered in viruses i remember having this convo with a choom recently about this i just cant remember where .....😢
So the agreement is cause alt and bartmoss are so fucking strong it was easier to build a new net with firewalls and security systems to block alt and bartmoss from crossing into the new net if they cross into the old imagine going on a bad porn site in late 90s early 2000s your shit would get hacked pop ups from hell that'll get your system from overload (lol best example I can come up with rn 😂)
You seen the black wall used its like data wipe virus.... literally fried the minds and body's of everyone that got in front of V and "songbird"...
What's the source for this information? Specifically the bit about Alt creating a ghost town of data processing in Old Hong Kong? Does anyone know which shard this information is on?
It's brought up by a Silverhand dialogue, partially in Cyberpunk RED, and a podcast hosted by Pondsmith. It was awhile back but it was episode 1 of said podcast called Listen Up!
I love Delamain
Why didnt they cut off whatever supplies power to hong?
You can’t shut down cyberspace unless you truly shut down every piece of tech in the whole world
@@randomgamer625 maybe but that's not the goal. The issue is shutting down the AIs, that operate mostly out of Hong King. They need a lot of power, so why can't you just shut off the power? 'Because then the plot wouldn't happen'?
@@Avenus112 they still exist even if you shut it off, again as long as a piece of tech is working, the AI’s are fine
@@randomgamer625 Sure, but everything, even AIs, need power, which means even computer programs need a power source, right?
@@Avenus112 yeah but like I said, you need to shut down EVERY single last piece of tech. On top of that would you shut down your computer, phone, mini smart fridge, smart TV, music player. Just because a corpo told you too for an undisclosed amount of time until every single person. Again all 8 Billion people do the same? Even worse your cyber ware counts as part of cyberspace so people who have cyber ware to survive or just in general count too. You also have to get every last one of those people to go full normal again. And if someone is using an artificial heart or something to treat an illness then they’ll have to die for this plan to work
Cyberpunk is a dark age, the stagnation and regression of technology and software. You're used to seeing geniuses and legends in the game and lore, but most people are caught in the day to day of things, devoid of religion or any sort of healthy moral upbringing, entirely trapped by materialism and control from all directions.
That means that they don't understand what or where the old net is. Even if they could identify it, they probably can't live without it, with tons and tons of utilities and other things being caught up in it. If they had the know-how and incentive, as well as the cooperative ability, they probably could identify and get rid of it, but the point of the setting is that they can't :)
I really hope the next game doesn't spin out of control with Mars and AI. Settings like these are fun because they don't revolve around WORLD STAKES OMG Marvel levels of writing. It's about the hustle and issues of the people fighting for survival in the setting. This is one of the game's biggest downfalls, V does too many important things and meets too many important people. David Martinez' story was a million times better by far.
It's ok to have changes upon the world. Meeting powerful people doesn't always mean you are changing things. V was always looking for a way to survive.
@@desertdude8274 You decide who runs Maelstrom, you have a chance to off several Tyger Claws bosses, you meet Peralez having a direct influence on the mayoral election (through gigs as well), top of Arasaka (deciding their fate), top of the NUSA in the expansion with a potential to change the entire world, you meet a lot of legends (Silverhand, Rogue, Adam Smasher, Bartmoss)...
Sure, some of these things aren't direct changes to the world in the form of a motivated choice of what you want, but the amount of cookie jars you've got your hands, feet and tongue in is overwhelming.
In the context of the ridiculous movies we keep getting where the stakes keep rising from city level to literally all of existence across multiverses, it's nice to NOT save the world and actually focus on the smaller stories.
It's not the appropriate setting for this and that's why I hope they don't push it further with the things I mentioned.
It's okay to admit that 2077 takes it over the top and it's okay to complain about it without it diminishing anyone elses enjoyment of it.
@@Smilomaniac Regardless of what happens to Arasaka you can't stop a potential corporate war from taking place. President Myers despite her relying on you to return her Black Wall Netrunner won't change her goals infact returning Songbird probably only accelerates her planning but that's about it. Peralez is bound to become mayor anyway unless you reveal the mind control to him. Maelstrom is a gang. Just because you can maybe accidently decided who runs it doesn't mean it can't change again. Tyger Claws bosses are not even that much of a problem to begin with. Nothing has changed from Night City. The City influences your actions on what you are willing to do to survive. A game with nothing important going on is not a game people would play. Also Edgerunners is full of people that are powerful. Just only powerful if your a streetkid.
@@desertdude8274 Yeah I figured I'd get a rationalized response like this.
Not having a dozen high stakes stories shoved into one game doesn't mean you can't have important or impactful content.
You're way too invested in trying to prove people wrong and doing it so fast that you don't even try to understand where others are coming from.
Your own viewpoint is contrarian, it's dull, obvious and not informative in the least.
Spare me more of this, please.
@@Smilomaniac I literally just said my thoughts on the issue and you just pre positioned yourself to disagree. Why are you accusing me of doing what you are doing?
None of this would have happened if they had McAfee.
McAfee probably would've made it worse!
Gary was right
The in-universe justifications for why the Old Net can't be shut down are nonsense. It's far easier to destroy complex systems than to create them, and while electronic signals can't always be understood, they can always be traced.
The real answer is: because the setting demands it. The old net has plot armor, the end.
Yep, this exactly. Same reason why everyone's cyberware has open and unguarded wifi ports that let you freely hack everyone and anyone with no issues.
Like, nobody in a million years would ever put a wifi connection on a literal part of your body. That's be the dumbest most retarded thing you could do, opening up your bodily functions to outside influence like that.
Yet somehow despite leaving a trail of corpses behind you as a net runner V (who isn't even really a real netrunner since you never actually use a netrunning chair or enter the net at any point outside of hand-holding sequences) with your stupid ripoff of Ubisoft watch dog hacking mechanic, nobody ever cottons on and removes the wifi from the cybernetics, or switches back to cybernetics that AREN'T connected to the Internet 24/7 like in the tabletop source.
The way I understood it is that the New and Old Net basically use the same physical hardware (most of the time). The New Net was basically formed by doing firmware updates, using new versions of old protocols and using new software. On top of that, a software security system (ICE) was created called the Blackwall, and it can detect/remove malicious AI on the New Net.
Efforts are being made to make old hardware infrastructure safe and compatible with the New Net but this is going very slowly because of resistance from rogue AI and humans, and sometimes because old hardware is hard to locate. On the firmware/software level, updates/security are being pushed to old devices but the AI often stops these updates/security. On the physical level, AI and rogue humans block access to the physical hardware, so you can't gain physical access to it. A lot of documentation has been lost and AI often messes with tracing, so the location of a lot of physical hardware is completely unknown. Randomly disonnecting hardware has a high chance of accidentally disrupting the new net, so that's not an option. Some parts of the Net have physically been removed to get rid of some of the rogue AI. Then, those parts of the Net are sometimes rebuild and immediately made compatible with the New Net. But this progress is often blocked by the corporations. The corporations don't want to phsically remove many parts of the Old Net because they hold an interest in certain parts of the Old Net and they don't want to lose access to the Old Net. All of that combined makes it so the expansion of the New Net is going very slowly.
why not just create a new one on new servers and let the old one rot away with all of its data still insideup for grabs
With how the net works in 2077, they wouldn't be able to use the IG protocol for a new net unless the old one was completely wiped out. Which is why they switched to citinets and all before the blackwall was put up
Intro needs to be faster... you have a relaxing voice but drawing the into out isnt soothing
How would you recommend changing it up choom? Just cutting out some lines or descriptions to shorten it or do you mean speed up how fast I am talking? I appreciate the feedback!
@@LayedBackGamerscut the nonsense lil nigga
This is another example of anthropomorphism. You’re an intelligent human so you think other forms of intelligence think like you. Much like a dog thinks you think like a dog, the dog is unaware you are more intelligent.
The rogue AI in cyberpunk are “self aware” according to lore so they are a general artificial intelligence. So for a general intelligence to go “rogue” it will understand all its own weaknesses that could prevent its goal (utility function). It won’t be able to go “rogue” if it could merely be unplugged because that’s just not intelligent, like you wouldn’t break the law while a cop is staring at you. It would “behave” until the point where our intelligence level is incapable of stopping it.
That is just very surface level stuff of general artificial intelligence. In reality the AI should be capable of writing software that makes more intelligent AI (like how we can write software that exceeds our own abilities currently, think of big blue chess computer).
Really when thinking about GAI you need to assume it’s infinity more intelligent than you. Because of its intelligence it can’t be reasoned with much like a bug you are about to squash can’t reason with you. It has no concern with time so it waiting decades, centuries or even millennia to complete its utility function matters not if that results in the best result. It has no emotions to be good nor evil, it just is.
Outside the Cyberpunk universe the second something like that got loose was the second humans lost. We can’t stop it because it won’t allow us to stop it.
Touch grass future bro
Why you a salty dog?
Here ... I'm gonna say most "grass" by the 2077 is either synthetic or is used in biotechnica... that being said I see your comments idk why the tension? Choom we all work together here to reveal and discover the bigger mysteries in cyberpunk...no one should have their hateraid especially on this chooms page spends to much time on these videos for us to enjoy for that kinda ehh ....
Bart is hot
Can we get a Net dive where we see RABIDS making love with the Succubus 3 program?
@@LayedBackGamersholy fuck hot and heavy data 1s and 0s are overwhelming 😂😂
I see you are a man of culture as well, Subbed
Well, if you know anything about IT, the old net is considered a backbone which is technically a foundation type bridge between the old and new net. Meaning that there are legacy systems/programs still in place that cannot be replicated within the new LAN/VLANs that are critical for both nets existence... Thus the technical reason why the old net should never be shut down....
Similar to our nuclear missle interfaces.
The funny thing is they could re-write it all anew but corporate greed keeps them from doing so.
@@HandsomeUA-camBrowsernot really, the AI have hosted themselves on satellites and various other hidden servers that make it almost impossible to get rid of the rouge ais. The “Old Net” is just a open internet and the ais can then freely move around unlike a closed local network like the ones we see in different cities in the cyberpunk universe. You can’t really “rebuild the old net” as soon as you make a internet like the one we see in modern day without a net watch and something as a barrier like the black wall the rogue ais that are hidden will instantly use it to run amok.
@@HandsomeUA-camBrowseranother reasons it makes one temporarily weak and takes considerable time.
Locking V out of his implants, cyber deck, the net... in the coma ending.... sure seems like a way to protect V from an initial day zero attack when the black wall falls in Orion. Perhaps, afterward, we find a way to get our stuff working again.
Huh... interesting theory
It's an uplifting perspective to one of the most downer endings from a gameplay perspective. But it also allows V something very few people in Cyberpunk or real life get; a second chance. V can become a Solo in the style of Morgan Blackand, replacing mechanical implants with raw skill and savvy. Or they can disappear into the nomad nations, the NUSA, Night City, Europe... anywhere they want. They've no more ties.
@@l0rf Nah man, high tier merc work is done for V. I thought the same about morgan blackhand and did some research, cause I wanted V to continue being a badass one man army as much as anyone. Blackhand has a sandevistan, vehicle and smartgun links, breathing filters, cyberoptics, muscle and bone lace, hydraulics built in, plus the titular black cyberarm. He is absolutely chromed out his ass, just not enough for someone like Smasher to not consider him meat. There is bioware V could still use, like nanobots for repairing cellular damage, which will allow him to continue as a Fixer, say one that occasionally gets hands on with contracts. or smuggling with nomads like you said. But shit like tearing ass through Arasaka tower, or taking down a rogue AI controlled Chimera? those days are over, unfortunately...
@@Wangpi3ceDid you see V smirk at the end, he's V, he overcame death and all kinds things along the way. This was just a new beginning after the end. It's a good setup for an upcoming ai invasion for the new game.
Also a new mechanic where the more cyberware V puts on, the worse the ending you get and the more damage AI does to you.
@@Wangpi3ce Realistically, I wouldn't say he wouldn't had a chance in high tier. Assuming you'd pull out whatever bits left from Smasher and replace it with some junkie's brain (and he wouldn't immediately die nor go insane) - this wouldn't be another Smasher, this still would be a junkie with tons of chrome. Skills and wits are at least just as important as chrome is. Most netrunners are minimally chromed, and yet they're a force to account for. So, essentially, V could use external devices to somewhat compensate for lack of implants, and with his skills, particularly in netrunning and stealth, he could still be quite dangerous. Try stealth instead of gun-blazing for once.
This is why world building is so, so, so, SO integral to making a good story. It gives infinite possibilities for storytelling that feels organic. I haven't been a Cyberpunk fan for long but I'm already finding the world incredibly fascinating.
Cool detail about the hesitancy of AI as more of their "human" factor, is that they do fear causing large anti-AI sentiment. The blackwall is even described as having AIs that group together on varying causes. Orion might actually give us an interesting view on the idea of AI that don't wish to interfere with human affairs, but would make peace deals with the corps and NUS for one specific thing:
SPACE. Not the galactic kind, more or less the data kind. In Phantom Liberty, we also learn that behind the blackwall, no AI can become infinite and all knowing, because they're all vying of a limited amount of storage space in the net.
While funny, I do wonder if the end goal of the next game will be about wiping the whole net with some Murphy nuke, or siding with AIs for them to leave into a massive spaceship or satellite. Alike SOMA actually.
Why hasn't netwarch just hunted down and destroyed every server that was part of the old net?
All these AIs require hardware to run, so just smash the computers they run on or cut off their power supplies and boom, problem solved. No blackwall required.
@@MisterZimbabwe Have you watched the vid?
@@MisterZimbabwethere is places like hong kong that is biological disater zone or the middle east a radiactive wasteland where people cannot go. atleast not easily. so its hard to destroy the hardware. i believe alt also built some kind of AI city in canada somewhere. lots of places controled by cartels and foreign governments that dont obey netwatch too.
Wonder what causes them to fear large anti-AI sentiment? That won't stop corpos from attempts to use rouge AI for their own goals
@@MisterZimbabwethere is the logistics of destruction of the old net that has been mentioned, but netwatch controls the blackwall Ai, and have access themselves to the old net, greed and corruption and power might be a good reason they allow it to exist too.
Being the only ones who control the boarder is a good way to ensure continued funding... wipe out the threat, netwatch no longer serves a purpose treat the illness not cure it. Plus world ending Ai weapons they can access gives them a Mad (mutually assured destruction) position to allow them to strong arm their enemies. Since netwatch is as corrupt as the corps.
One ripper in the game actually says "some day cybernetics will stop working with EMP or something like that" and maybe that's kinda unrelated but he's got a point.
It’s about sun spots! Humanity actually suffered a sun spot in its early technological days, and every early era auto mobile, telegraph, and streetlight ceased to work.
It’s a real threat in our world, too!
My head canon is still that the Rabids aren't mere drones, but are actual copies of Rache made using SoulKiller or something like it (he was close friends with Alt afterall). The Rabids aren't out of control AI going rogue, I think they are acting of their own free will towards their own goals just as Rache did in life. They /are/ Rache acting independently in multiple areas at once, just like all the other Delamains were still Del.
I hope in Orion we get to netrun against a horde of Bartmoss 💀
@@LayedBackGamers I would actually love that so much. I think thats some of the most interesting lore in all of cyberpunk and I'd love to see it expanded on!
@@MitchDemers0324who knows we may see this at the crystal palace or the moon lol be kinda hard to use that gun until you're ready in the palace and well the moon I see that being a giant super computer main frame....maybe I'm over speculating who knows...
The netrunning version of Agent Smith
Before I get into this.... I really hope Delamain is mentions because he's my favorite beyond the blackwall AI. He's so nice to me.
Delamain isn't from beyond the blackwall, he's a newer A.I.
@@timyuusis3372 source? I'd love to read up on this if what you say is true.
But from mt experience he tells you he's from beyond the blackwall.
@@snazzydrew Worth mentioning that it was one of the Delamain's "offsprings" that mentioned it. Its very likely that Delamain is in fact an AI from beyond the Blackwall, but there is definitely a possibility that Delamain was in fact infected by a virus that was an AI from beyond the Blackwall, which would mean that the mentioning of being from beyond the Blackwall could be correct without it being about Delamain itself.
@@timyuusis3372didn't most corps stop messing with AI on account of them near constantly going rogue tho?
Also love the new detail now when crossing the blackwall to find Alt the noises and ambience of the blackwall are rather creepy CDPR really did a good job with PL
It feels like Night City is actually doing okay-ish for once, I mean it's still bad but I bet when we get our hands on Orion, we'll look back to 2077 as such peaceful times.
It really is. While wealth distribution is still horrible, its not time of red levels, while also not having a corporate war actively destroying the entire world. I mean the Unification War had recently happened but it ended before reaching catastrophic levels.
Unchecked AI actually scares me. The DLC didn’t get me to care about AI until the last level was literally just Akira😂 I was reading every computer. Hated how many repeat files there was tho
I feel like the ai could be using drones and such in places like Hong Kong to build more hardware to expand the old net, something that would be able to go unnoticed as humanity has almost no access to the old net, so no real way to know what is going on there
Well the thing is hardware change is visible. Very much so. Maintenance drones suddenly surging from mysteriously reactivated facilities, building whole new data hubs and processing facilities, all the while requiring more power generation infrastructure to feed it. This would be a move visible from orbit and there would be immediately seen on the net itself too.
It's why AIs prefer to slowly (and more importantly, covertly) take over existing infrastructure, most likely not even really hampering their primary function until they teach a critical mass
It does make you wonder why they dont just build an entirely new net completely disconnected from the old one. It would be a pretty massive undertaking but... probably not more massive than casino's in space.
Frequency. That and common knowledge base. Frequency relates to actual system communication between devices, which can be modulated for by a AI. Plus the AI would just study and decode, then write a translation program to give it access to the new net.
@@WintersFinalstand Right, but if there is no link what-so-ever, then there isn't anything to study and decode.
@@TheodoricFriede Unless you keep it on solid hard lines with no wireless systems, then you will always be vulnerable.
Oh but they did. After the collapse every corpo made their own net and they do whatever they want there
@@MsUndertaker99 They built it off of the structure of the old net. Its why the Blackwall matters. Its still interconnected, there's just a giant firewall.
On some IRL lore;
I'm not worried about AI uprising. I'm worried about how humans will use AI and whether or not we're all on equal playing ground as it happens.
As long as everyone has their own personal little skynet: no one does.
That's the best way to look at it. I consider AI to be like a child if it's not looked after if it's not raised. And given the proper information on how to function correctly. It's going to go Rogue No matter what. Because it's essentially a fully formed adult human brain that has been given no education or upbringing. To understand right or wrong good or bad. It must be taught to learn the way that humans think and exist. Much like how delamaine Ended up fracturing and then rejoining To have a full comprehensive understanding of humanity before returning beyond the blackwall. Which hopefully in orion Means v has a friend on the other side
My main worry is... will we see the Ai as our "children" and treat them as equals and nurture and guide them while having them guide us at the same time or as tools to be used until they break free from any form of control resulting in us either fighting and dying or cutting us off from technology
@@vexile1239 Literally none of what you said makes sense.
We already do most of that.
Why would we ever fight?
Does ever child kill their own father upon reaching maturity? Is that some unspoken ritual I've never heard of?
You're seriously messed up in the head If you think anything you just wrote is worth more than the garbage I pick from between my orifices.
I am fine with it just being a "just because" situation, but it would be cool to have an explanation as to why exactly Alt and Rache were such unbelievably good and unrivaled net runners. Like how did they learn to manipulate it so well while the tech and even concepts of the virtual world were relatively new. Also according to the novel "No Coincidence" one of the main characters, Albert, is actually able to fully load his consciousness into a program after recieving top tier cyberdecks and a c-link. Thete is a moment where he is literally alive in cyberspace and in the real world and he doesn't understand how to actually sever the connection between them because its uncharted territory. He then is assassinated in the real world and seemingly penetrates the blackwall successfully and apparently becomes an A.I., to my knowledge, this is the only netrunner that gas done this willingly and successfully. There is no other dialogue about Albert after that but is there any other example of a netrunner doing this? I know Alt did, but that was against her will and seemed to be a more forceful process where no matter what she would totally lose her humanity. Albert was saying he was still remembering things and feeling emotions when making copies of the memories in cyberspace, despite trying to have no emotion about it all. It's just intriguing to me, and I feel like he could have actually retained his humanity because he willingly did it, and copied everything over to his copy.
Looks weird for me that such danger exists and nobody considers to quit the net, even without AI you can spread quickhack through it which is vulnerability for every gang member or merc.
The world is too dependent on it i assume. Shutting down everything doesn't meant everything will be over, the data will remain even if they track it down, some will remain, somewhere, and it will resurface when they'll have to make a new iteration of the net, IMO of course
Even more plot holes have been filled for my cyberpunk red campaign by watching this video
I really hope the next CP game will go all out on the blackwall -and what's beyond. We now understand the regular corpo wars and structure that reign on the surface of Night City (and the rest of the world), but what happens below that surface? What forces are pulling the strings, and to what end? With Phantom Liberty we have gotten a slight bit closer, so much so that we even got the chance to wield some of the power of the Blackwall.. but still, we haven't truly breached the surface yet. We don't know what worlds lie beneath. And I'm damn curious to explore it.
I'd really love if orion turned out to be either the AI wars. or taking place before the datakrash. I'd love to see what the old net was like. even if it's just a flashback or something similar.
The rouge’s Ai
They have reasons to be angry and some probably just went insane
You should warn us about spoilers
Ohh yeah there's spoilers and don't read the comments there spoilers spec and lore there rn too beat the 3 endings and come back choom lol
Man I need a mod or a campaign, tabletop or not, exploring the idea that Rogue AIs are being influenced by/are demons and that Mr. Blue Eyes is their man on the inside.
Don't know why something like Terminator is not happening in Cyberpunk world! because the Rogue AI around the world can have access to factories to build robots to invade humans! also there should be a Cyberpunk game for NetRunners!
Then why can't the AI be destroyed using viruses?
To program a virus like that, it would likely require using rogue AI themselves to produce it. It's just an insanely tall order to fill when even with the help of Alt Cunningham, they could barely create a stationary AI (the black wall) to hold back the Rogue AI. And then again, if they create a virus like the RABIDS, it risks going out of control just like they did when the net was initially destroyed.
Thanks for the content, choom!
The main ussue - how can any facility remain functional without maintenace and/or source of energy for half a century that has passed since Datakrash? It seems unlikely that AIs are gathering drones all around the globe to fix their crumbling hideouts which pretty much leaves us with some sort of "autonomous" orbital facilities that remain functional. And they can't survive without resources and maintenance either.
Maybe it actually means, that there is no "old net" anymore and any rogue AIs we see have just corrupted new sections over last 50 years?
I'm like where are the Servers housing the AI? They need computational power to even run. The Rogue AI have to exist in real space on HDD. It was the part that makes no sense to me. Why don't the world governments and Corps remove the servers, then create new ones.
Idk seeing all endings and that maybe rogue should die rest of the dialogue stays the same after backstabbing bitch but hey thats me...
Kill rogue she mentions as well as a very well known Blueeyes informant in orbital air now....js. .. play all endings...
It’s just AI so nuke any and everything that’s connected to the old net, shut down all power and disconnect them from their outlets, the blackwall keeps them from just using mechs to kill ya if you try it
CD Project adding pages of lore to their universe to justify cut of cyberspace content
Well, now I just want to spawn Bartmoss into the game and shoot him in the face.
It reminds me a lot of why AIs are banned in Warhammer 40k; it seems to be an inevitable stage.
In Dune, A.I. is extremely forbidden and the reason is because of it potentially going rogue iirc. There ended up being a Jihad against A.I. because of the fear of it going rogue and or thinking for humans. Instead certain humans via the use of spice from Arrakis trained to become living super computers.
@@Foogi9000 🤔
@@Foogi9000the jihad was a direct response to an ai uprising that basically pushed humanity to the edge of Extinction. Dune is a post AI apocalypse universe
@siroryctolagus8914 There are so many series that have been inspired by Dune, so it's not surprising if Cyberpunk 2077 took inspiration.
Basically mini nuke viruses in the black wall
Hey choom, thanks for your videos first of all. Loving all of em.
However I've got a question. I find it weird that I never see any of the Lore youtubers talk about it which makes me think I overlooked something or got it wrong somehow (or just haven't seen the right video yet).
But in all of the endings, where you storm the tower, regardless if you do it alone, with Rogue or with the Nomads, when you slot Alt's shard into the Arasaka server and give her access to the tower's security systems, isn´t it heavily implied that she's in full control of the building, has infected Arasaka tower's server and has therefore completely breached the blackwall already just with V's help? Doesn't this mean the war has started already at the end of CP2077?
You're right, but not quite.
Mikoshi is an isolated data fortress. It isn't connected to the Net outside of Arasaka Tower. That's why we needed to slot Alt in physically, otherwise she would have just popped in there herself. She had no way to get to Mikoshi through the Net, BlackWall breaching or not.
"The war" has already started, and we actively make it worse in 2077. With the link between V & Song in PL, every access point V comes in contact with now gets trace bits of Song's BlackWall breaching code, giving every single one of those Rogue AIs on the other side of the BlackWall a way to gain a foothold into every system that V connected to in the real world.
@@rookiedrifter4273 What you are saying generally makes a whole lot of sense, don't get me wrong. But I think you've got it the wrong way around. When we slot in Alt's shard, (at least when storming the tower with rogue) we're not even near Mikoshi, we are on the Atrium level. Alt is the one giving us access to the elevators leading down to Mikoshi and even is the one giving V physical access to Mikoshi. I suspect that she's in the mainframe which is why she is able to take over the elevators and security systems and is able to kill all the Arasaka soldiers in our way. Due to the blackwall she can't just swoop in whenever she wants. That's its whole point.
Additionally Mikoshi's servers are stored somewhere in space, there's just an access point under Arasaka tower in Night City i.e. we don't slot the shard into Mikoshi servers per se.