Alternate method to wiring the EG4 18KPV Hybrid Inverter without a transfer switch
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- Опубліковано 22 лют 2024
- Instead of a transfer switch with 200 amp pass thru. I tap the feed and run a disconnect, and keep the load on an interlock breaker.
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That story you told about the tech support is amazing!
pretty amazing that EG4's own tech support watched your video, reached out to you with some ideas/suggestions. most of the time, tech support criticizing installs. the K.I.S.S. method makes setup easier for everyone else. transfer switches are huge,noisy. we have 1 buzzing abnormally loudly at our complex, contractor bid some big bux to replace it or disable it since the backup genset was long since abandoned
Hi Jesse great video, being a retired Plumber I had no idea what you were talking about but enjoyed it as usual.
Really appreciate you doing a talk-through at the same time you're doing your work it makes it a lot clearer what you're doing and where you're headed. Thanks so much
@jmuller86 Nice upgrade to the wiring configuration. Putting your new disconnect above the main panel sideway would be fine, no prohibition on that in the NEC.
But I see that you have two neutral conductors terminated on the EG4 neutral busbar. Both of those originate from your main panel, one going through the new 70A disconnect above and then down the new LFMC to the inverter, the other going down through the LFMC that goes out the bottom of the main panel to the inverter. If you think about it, those two conductors are in parallel: they both originate at the same busbar (main panel) and ultimately terminate at the same busbar (inverter). Which means that constitutes a 310.10(H) violation, as they are smaller than 1/0.
Perhaps more importantly, any neutral current between the inverter and the main panel will divide along the two paths, regardless of the state of your interlocked breakers. So you'll have a 300.3(B) violation, as not all the conductors of the circuit are in the same conduit.
The solution to both problems is to use only one neutral conductor between the main panel busbar and the inverter busbar, and to route it along with both your (2) interlocked 70A breaker ungrounded conductors and your (2) new 70A tap conductors in a single conduit run that has all 5 conductors. You can use either the upper route through the new 70A disconnect, or the lower route through the bottom of your main panel. If you use the lower route, then you could also delete the neutral wire that goes from the main panel to your new 70A disconnect. Plus the lower route is shorter, so it looks like you'd be under 24" and not have to worry about derating for 4 CCCs.
thanks for the comment. After reading it I realized I had a neutral loop with my own 100amp transfer switch through 2 separate conduits. I have rewired things and now I pass the 5 conductors (2 in from grid to the inverter, and 2 back from inverter to lower lugs of transfer switch, and 1 common neutral) through the transfer switch. And removed the now empty conduit that used to hold the grid to inverter run
Beautiful solution. Where I live they require bond bushings on the nipples with unfused conductors passing through. Great video!!!
Cool setup Jesse, so if I understand correctly you've got 200amps coming in from the meter to the taps. The taps connected to both the 200amp main breaker on your panel and the 70 amp breaker you mounted above the panel. Since you don't need anywhere close to 200 amps to run your house, you leave the 70 amp breaker on, grid power normally runs through the inverter and is backfed into the 70amp breaker inside your panel which goes to all the loads. In the event the power is cut from grid the inverter can almost instantaneously switch over to the batteries without interruption. And if for some reason the inverter failed, you can turn off the 70 amp breaker in your panel and move the interlock down and throw the 200 amp main breaker and bring power directly in from the grid bypassing the inverter. Hope I got that right.
Yes, exactly
Hi Jesse… just a question so why add another 70amp breaker between tap wire and inverter? Is it required to put transformer switch or amp breaker I have seen another video where the guy just tapped the main line and connected straight to the grid inverter input and then added 70amp breaker to the main breaker with the interlock switch.. no extra 70amp breaker or transformer switch between the main line tap wire to the grid inverter input. Just trying to understand which is the correct write way.
This setup allows him run the house on grid power while he does work on the inverter.
You can definitely in most of USA turn that breaker box horizontally. And yes, running the EG4 in full time pass through functioning as a UPS is how I am running it for that last 2 months. The only down side is the EG4 has some overhead of course ( haven’t had time to perform an exact) and I have not found any factory information on the life cycle expectancy over the long haul. Great video as always.
Great video! I'm doing the same thing, but with a sub panel and critical loads. I like how you tackled this and I don't see any code infractions. I do believe you found the cheapest all in one solution. But, if people are having bigger loads with non-critical loads, your little sub panel could be a bigger subpanel. But, I think you found the best solution for yourself.
I personally have three Electric ranges, three fridges, one deep, freeze, one main air conditioner, six window, air conditioners, a 120 amp, electric furnace, a water pump, and Internet and TV I would like to keep on. By my calculation, I will need almost double what you have.
I thank you very much for the video as this has given me some good insight. I am going to go with a critical loads sub panel. But I do like your work and expertise! Thank you for posting this video.
you could do the same thing but with 100 amp backfeed breaker for the interlock. you could just shut off whatever you dont want or cant power. I did this mainly because I dont have the room for a giant transfer switch and I dont want a critical loads panel, I want the option of powering anything I need. it sounds like you might need two of the 18kpvs though. in that case you would have 100 amps
That's the coolest, most high tech utility room I've ever seen. Your house is beautiful! I've really enjoyed watching you and your crew build it. It took a lot of guts and research to tackle this project. You should be proud of yourself!
Glad you recommended re-torquing the connections on the Burndy tap's after 24 hours. It's an important step that so many miss, and loose connections can overheat and eventual fail in a very bad way (Retired electrician) Looking forward to the solar work :)
Unless the Burndy's instructions require you to do that, it is unnecessary. The initial tightening torque is supposed to be set by the manufacturer to ensure a good connection even after everything relaxes a little. Taken to an extreme, if you came back and retightened them every day, eventually you would damage the conductors.
Good update, glad your doing the heavy lifting figuring out the what if's of this configuration! It is really cool that you have people from EG 4 following your channel. Sure as heck short cuts the process figuring it out talking directly to the source!! Good post Jesse! Thanks Man!
I used feeder taps as well when wiring that inverter but I installed those in a 200amp transfer switch because there was so much more room
That totally makes sense. I can't wait to see this solar system take shape!!
You are definitely not afraid of hard work. You have an impressive wealth of knowledge on different areas of construction. As far as the mounting of your disconnect I would agree you are correct.
Enclosures containing OCPDs must be mounted in a vertical position unless this is impractical [240.33]. Circuit breaker enclosures can be horizontal if the circuit breaker is installed per 240.81.
Ecmweb Com Mag 710ecm C Bfig4
Fig. 4. Enclosures for overcurrent devices must be mounted in a vertical position, unless this is impractical.
The requirements of 240.81 specify that where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically, the “up” position of the handle must be in the “on” position. Therefore, an enclosure that contains one circuit breaker can be mounted horizontally, but an enclosure that contains a panelboard or load center with multiple circuit breakers on opposite sides of each other would have to be mounted vertically
Thanks for the videos
Above my brain capacity, but I like watching and learning. ❤❤❤❤
Great information for people who have solar 👍 Thanks for sharing!! 😊
I am thinking about installing this EG4 system, so this is great for me. Thank you very much for these videos Jesse!
Hi Jesse,
Would you please consider a rewire of your topology from a 70amp feed to a 100amp breaker with #2awg and reposition the box horizontally to eliminate the seal-tight piano string crap? Then by default, use the generator safety slide as a "Global Wrap" Maintenance Bypass. This becomes useful when servicing the EG4 or in the event of a catastrophic failure of the EG4. And add a TVSS to your main panel for the transfer spikes when the utility fails. All just my opinion because I know the way you have it now is going to bug you. Why do I know it's going to bug you is because anyone that actually uses a real torque wrench in a panel is a honorable OCD man. Also remember the limitations on the array current keep that in mind when you are thinking out loud with all the possibilities. Keep up the good work. Best regards, Patrick
Great video Jesse. Thanks for sharing.
A brilliant and very current video with increased sales of PV systems and renewable energy.
It's a shame Eg4 didn't have a trigger output with NO / NC contacts to run a grid voltage present auxiliary warning light or buzzer with time delay to notify you of restored services after an outage. It always amazes me at the conductor size of American wiring. It is very different to our British incoming mains. Great video, Jesse
Great video! My 2 18kpv's arrived yesterday. Now I'm just waiting on my 16kw of panels and 43kwh of batteries to arrive on the slow boat from China.
So awesome what you do! I remember when you brought the electric into the foundation.
American wiring codes always amaze me. In Australia we have much tougher regulations, but we also have a single phase voltage of 240ac and three phase voltage of 415ac coming into out panels. Anything to do with mains supply, or power export requires an electrical inspector, and a whole heap of paperwork and applications on line. Any sort of export is called “Embedded Generation” and requires an agreement, aproval and an inspection!
induction stoves are awesome... had a samsung for 5 years now... cooks as good as gas... surface stays clean looking because the glass doesn't reach the high temps the standard electric stovetops do. no hassle of gas either. induction for the win.
Great video. I installed my 1st solar system on my 96 year old house back in 2000. I have improved things 3 to 4 times now since then. In 1998 I upgraded the house from the old Tube and Knobs with a 4 fuse panel to a 125 amp panel and installed the main service panel then as well - with permit and inspection. I am a DIYer and have been experimenting with solar since 1992. Today, I have a 100 amp GE/ABB transfer switch that allows me to switch the mostly whole house loads panel between grid and inverter output. My loads are very modest as I worked hard to achieve smart and efficient loads
I use 2 Schneider XW Pro inverters and charge controllers. If I were installing the system today, I would now use the 18kpv like you did. Tech today is so GREAT when compared to a few years ago
My breaker from the grid to my inverter is OFF 99% of the time. I use Chargeverters to re-charge the batteries, either from grid or from small dirty power generators.
Thank you for showing the "tap" process in a real system. I will keep this in mind for possible future use on another house - if I live long enough, I am getting old now. Appreciate again the video, I am sharing it with fellow solar guys. doug
Great job Jesse !
Wow ,i was lost after the breaker was turned off to your home,,,, didnt say i was an electrician,but i bet you had some good information,,,like aways your videos are great.
You can have your 70 amp disconnect box horizontal, since the breaker would be oriented just like a typical breaker panel. You can't flip the 70 amp disconnect 180 degrees like you can a main panel (not that you would want to anyway) because then "off" would be "up" and "on" would be "down" which is confusing at a glance. Even with the breaker labeled ON and OFF you can't have it operate upside down.
Doing a schnieder 2 inverter d/c coupled now. Signature Solar has been great to deal with, I am newbie and not licensed all very knowledgeable,helpful and responsive. Good video 😊
Wow, miles above my pay grade, but so cool to watch you do this and develop your knowledge and understanding of how the system can optimize your life!!
You are the best for sharing this I have been wanting to install this but hesitant because of the knowledge to wire thk u for sharing!!!
Great video! I would love to see a schematic for this install.
Great equipment and supplier
The 6'7 rule is measured to the 'handle' in its highest position
Love your channel and videos very informative learned a lot .
Nice thanks for a great video cause I’m already planning the same way for my grid connection! 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Very cool stuff. Thanks for the videos!
Good job with your house man
Quite an informative video thank you for sharing this
Make sure you use some large labels on that disconnect. Switches can be mounted sideways as long as it’s properly labeled. Nice, well planned installation.
In the Navy we had Line Sensing ABT electro-mechanical interlocks. I believe it's legal to turn a feeder breaker sideways as long as there's permanent labels with "ON" / "OFF" in the upright position on the sideways panel and the watertight integrity isn't compromised.
I recommend to add a delay when the grid comes back on, sometimes they can do some maintenance outside on the grid and you can switch back and forth, also this can hurt some appliances that have a compressor. Good luck
Your system is very expensive and sophisticated. Have you taken any steps to protect it from surges/lightning?
Thank you for the Video.
As a fellow master electrician I love this. I have been researching solar and trying to figure out what inverter I want to get started with. I think im going to get the eg4 6000xp and set it up the same way you have with the 18k. Love it.
the 6000xp seems to be a nice inverter. I might order 2 of them for my solar trailer I am currently building
Let me help you out
1 You have to use a double throw switch or ats
2 two sources of power can't be in the same line and box .
3 A splice box have to go near to your Lb and distribution panel.
You use seal tight flex pipes but both your distribution and disconnect are not water proof plus there are plumbing line less than 3 feet from your electrical
And the list goes on please this installation is not for the do it your selfer and I recommend a riser get done , then approve then installation can happen.
I have 6.6 mega watts of installed and running solar and love the Eg4 system but recommend this installation not to be attempted by do it your selfer.
Keep up the work .
Wow, finally, a Jesse Muller video that won't take me three days to watch!
😂😂😂
Nice job
I like the methodology you used to make a transfer switch. I'd have to look at my Victron MultiPlus II to see how that it might work in a off grid setup. I am currently install mine in a motorhome where the 50 Amp supply comes through a generator/shore power transfer switch and directly to the inverter/charger. One thing I did notice as a person who specialized in electrical safety during my career is that you should put blanks in your panel to replace the missing breakers as some DIYers may not know the difference and as I found out years ago on a large electrical appliance, kids can get there hands into the strangest places. The other recommendations, always use the back of your hand when you might be dead checking your power. As you mentioned your muscles will close or contract. By use of the back of the hand the contraction of the arm muscles will bring you hand/arm back to your body. Good work on this though.
I’ve been looking at the 18KPV and I like what you’re doing here. I’ve got 15 kW of existing grid tied solar running on Enphase micro inverters. My utility only allows self-power if you’ve got batteries so currently when the grid goes down my solar goes down with it (I’ve got a production meter that goes straight to the grid). It sounds like you’re saying there’s a possibility that the Gen input on the 18KPV might be able to handle the full 15 kW of AC Coupled solar. If that’s so then this is really exciting. I’ve got 200 amp main service on aluminum lines just like you do. I’ve got some thinking to do now for sure. Thanks for the video!
Actually an engineer at EG4 told me that the 18kpv can handle up to 19kw of ac coupling on top of 19kw of dc pv. So 38kw altogether. They will coming out with an update so you can actually ac couple through the load port as well for more ac coupling. The 18kpv really does have a lot of neat features
I do not know how it is in the USA, but in EU we are not allowed to change the cable diameter on a simple block, only via fuse (breaker). So the same "AWG" has to be the out as the in feed.
AMAZING!
I hope you are writing all this info so in the future you know what you engineered when I worked we used a log book to keep track of what we did
Ummmmmmmmm.............OK! Thanks for sharing Jessie.
What i would have done differently is conecting the incoming grid power to the top side of the breaker, thats what i have been taught. It doesnt make a difference for the function ofcourse its just good practice imho.
I would like to see an audible alert to let you know when the grid power is back on and not just rely on a small light on the inverter. Nothing really loud just a simple interrupted beep to get your attention.
You should of had the service come into a 8x8 trough with end caps, then you mount the house panel on that and all your splices would be in the trough and down the trough you would be able to mount and power everything. I work and live in NYC and to code you can not slice in a service panel this is why you use a trough makes it neat and easy and safe. 38 yrs doing this stuff.
there is no code that says that you cant tap inside of a panel. There have been a few people who have said that but not one has come up with the actual NEC reference.
@@jmuller86The code is you can not use a service panel as a raceway, the taps are considered a splice that are to be done in a raceway --pull box- trough. This is NYC code maybe you have national code by you.
@@wirenut003 you still have not referenced an actual code with an actual number. This is also not NYC, you can keep that crap down there, it has no relevance up here, and the rest of the world. But I also highly doubt that it is an actual code down there, I think you just havent done enough homework. This has been done in millions of homes all over the U.S.
@@jmuller86 Jesse 38 years Local # 3 international brotherhood of electrical workers, certified lineman. so yeah I don't know crap about it. So keep that mess of a room up in your neck of the woods because it would not pass here.
@@wirenut003 you can be wrong for 38 years. It happens all the time. Its called learning. The fact that you are union explains why you dont actually know. You do one thing over and over again, doesnt mean you know anything more than that. Being a linesman doesnt mean you install solar. You still have not recited the actual code. If you could not tap a feeder, inside the panel..then there would not be many solar installations. What if the conduit enters the panel from behind the wall? Exactly....what you are saying doesnt hold water. Show me the code reference
Morning coffees on!! Here we go!!Cheers!;-)!!
AND STILL. The most talented guy on UA-cam.
If you schedule your charging from the grid you can normally charge at a lower rate if you schedule charging for early morning hours. You may not have time of use in your neighborhood but its what all the net metered customers here in California have.
Yes that is a good use of this inverter and batteries. I dont have peak rates in my area but you never know when they could switch to it
Always hard to say what an inspector in another area will allow or not. Then there is also the personal prerogative not governed by NEC which can be quite arbitrary. Having said that I mounted my Square D (not Homeline) 200 amp panel horizontally in my shop and passed inspection without a word about it. Seems I had read Square D specs which also allowed it. As I recall NEC 2023 specifies it as long as the switch is labeled and the manufacturer approves it for vertical or horizontal it meets code.
Thanks. Jesse, pardon my French, but I love this SH*T!
Great info but I would look in to putting a GFI breaker for lighting to save your inverter just saying. Keep up the cool vid's.
jesse is a pretty smart guy builds his own house and wires it all up like i want to see him do a visor talking about his upbringing and how he got all is knowledge would be so cool to learn more about this guy
That's a problem with manual transfer switches a lot of people have, that you can't tell when the power has come back on.
you can leave the main breaker off… the way you wired it now. that’s was my comment on your first video.
one plus to how you have it wired is, if the EG4 fails, you can pass your power directly to the load panel, and remove the EG4 to get it repaired… all without a 200A transfer switch (they are also pricey, as you pointed out)
Yeah I'd leave the main off now and let all the power go through the EG4 and he has completely automated backup. Only need the main if the EV4 fails or you need to run a larger than 70amp load.
for sure neat
Here in Ont. Canada you can mount any panel side ways. But I don't think. I'd have to check in this kind of set up. You can't split your main feed. Would have to be feed from a bracker in main or sub panel. So going by that. This would be a no go. Just like 200amp must be feed by a 250mcm alumunum. In 1997 when I installed my 200amp I could use 4/0 UMD90 ALUMUNUM but both are at a max of 230' over that have to go to 700 due to votage drop.
Anyone else lose audio around 22:23?
sometimes when I render in media encoder, it does this. I try to check it after I render, but by that time; I reviewed the video like 4 times and get so bored of watching it lol
There’s a plumbing clean out not even 6” away from the inverter. Wow.
But this is still a great video, I’ve always wondered if a setup like this without a transfer switch could work. Thanks for confirming.
Realistically these inverters, and victrons inverters, probably any inverters that have grid input could be used this way.
These inverters can be put outside so having a plumbing pipe next to it wont be an issue
It can be horizontal as long as the on position isn't down.
It a good idea to run it that way but that wiring is giving my OCD a stroke. I do a lot with electronics/computers and wire/cableing neatness to me is top priority.
I would double check that you have the setting to back feed solar to grid is off without an automatic transfer switch or interlock. My area fines you if the meter senses power when the service is off.
if you wanted to you could run 100 amp grid right into your inverter from the main panel and then go to a 100 amp panel for all your circuits. if you ever need more than 100 amps you run a 2nd 100 amp system and double your solar panels and batteries.
Nice work , big thumbs up
I really did not want to do a critical loads panel. It seems like a lot of needless work. Your tap that takes grid to the disconnect breaker and then to the inverter grid connection (using a generator interlock on the main panel) is exactly what I was thinking. I just did not know if it would pass code. Since you are doing it, I assume it does. I am probably going to use two inverters and this same setup will work fine. I will use a combiner breaker box to bring the two inverter leads back to the main panel so will just need two disconnect/combiner boxes with enough spaces for the breakers. Thanks!
👍👍👍
Read what someone named Jeremy wrote on Medium about his EG4 inverter: "From flicking lights to not providing acceptable power for ev chargers. I have had nothing but issues with my eg4 6500 exs that I purchased from signature Solar. The units are really hard to get all of the settings correct from the start. Then the settings will randomly just revert back to factory settings. My Tesla will charge by its self but if you try to start an appliance with a decent load the car will stop charging even though the combined 13000 watts of power was not even close to being exceeded. The inverters are also extremely loud with fans that run all of the time.
Fast forward a year and one of the inverters have thrown a f09 code (internal failure). Signature solar will honor the warranty, But they have taken nearly a month and the inverter hasn’t even been sent back yet then they will ship out another (used one) to replace it. One inverter won’t cut it because it’s only 120v so I sit without a working system."
Yea there were a lot of problems with the 6500. Signature solar for the most part has been good about customer service. I am on a facebook group called signature solar eg4 and I see all the back and forth but people are happy most of the time
Yup, I had nothing but issues with my 6500s. Had four of them replaced under warranty for different issues. Finally gave up and used their upgrade program to get a 18kpv. Will see how it goes I guess.
God blessed you in a mighty way by not letting you injure your hand. I pray you will not make that mistake ever again.
Nice job 👍.
House for me with stairs useless for me. Like stairs to the bedroom etc.
U get hurt, age comes sooner than later....
I'll take a bungalow anytime.
I was ready to copy your old design, but this is a great improvement. To clarify: there is not a 70amp limitation as you mention using 100amp or 125amp breakers? I know double pole 150’s were once available for my panel but have been discontinued. 125amp breakers are available as I’m using one on a sub panel.
I’m curious as to how long it will take to actually see a “profit” with all the money spent on wiring and all the other gadgets and the thermal loop solar panels etc, as opposed to having just a wood stove for heat and paying a normal hydro bill.
jesse i been watching your videos forever , can we hear you talk about like your first job and basically how you got to where you are today please
Ok I will try to start planning for a video. Maybe titled ...where I came from , or how I got to where I am. It is an interesting story
What you’ve done is what I want to do, except I’m not even a junior electrician. Where are you at so I can hire you?
But there is a timeout required for most new AC compressors to avoid running backward. I managed to stop mine after a power glitch before it burned up from reverse inadequate lubrication.
30:00 you do know they sell UPS towers for computers, right?.....🙂j/k...very informative video.
Jesse there's a couple of YT channels who've bought at action used U.S. Army field diesel generator boxes for the worst senario. Which got me thinking to find one myself.
yea a diesel generator is a really good idea. you can store diesel forever and you can use homemade biodiesel too.
Calm down Waldo 😂
@@jeepindave5464 Right Waldo's World is one of the YT channels.
Where’s waldo 😂
In South Africa the average houses Db board normally is limited to 60 amps or 45 amos, u guys have talking about 200 amps, or 70 amps
So if you had your solar panels feeding your house during the day, would the grid going down even be noticeable? Would your solar arrayjust keep on trucking while the grid was down during the daylight? Great Video by the way!!!
yes, I wouldnt even know about it
I remember reading that you don't really need antioxidant anymore on al cables but it's a belt and suspenders if you do. what's your opinion on it?
Interestingly different to n the UK. Most times junction boxes precede the main DB box to allow sub circuits to be tapped without altering the main board . Fully see the system you want which is not unusual.
That’s awesome your really good at what you do that’s cool your into a lot of trades I new u said once b4 u was a master electrician n a video pretty cool
Looks good. Wondering how much room you have in the right side of your main panel. Could you run your new lines from the 70A disconnect back down through the same nipple or punch out another knockout in both boxes and then drop the lines down the right side of your main panel and then over to your battery trough? That would eliminate the diagonal liquidtite on the wall.
So the only negative I see in this setup with the way my electric is configured, I dont have a disconnect upstream of the main panel where the tap is. Would need to get my meter pulled to set this up but if the 70amp breaker were to ever fail. I'd have to schedule the utility company to come back out just to swap out breaker 😑
I know in my state(WA) you can mount sideways
Flash power cuts are the order of the day in the 'UK' atm, so you never really know where you are with the grid, and they NEVER explain why.They might offer some vague excuse in the weather channels, but rarely are they localised.
It sounds to me like they just automated the t switch...😮
I think I missed something, in that I don’t understand what you were trying to accomplish, or what the problem was that you were trying to solve.
Could you not just run your feeder from the meter into the grid input of the EG4? Then the load side into the main breaker on your panel.
At first I thought it was because you were waiting for your interconnect agreement, but now it seems you’ve done this anyway, just with a 70 A tap? I guess it’s not clear to me where the 70 A line is going on the EG4.
I’m struggling with how to add an EG4 because I have a combo meter panel. I think I’m going to have to move the mast and get a new meter socket installed. But it’s a pain because the panel is set into an exterior wall.