A Critical Look at the 1619 Project | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter [The Glenn Show]
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- 3:26 Critiquing the NYT’s series on American slavery, the 1619 Project
11:19 Why did this package come out now?
21:17 Are today’s racial disparities a “predictable” result of slavery?
27:31 The imaginary black man riding the subway who thinks “y’all gotta watch out for me”
39:40 The elided history of black shopping districts
47:48 Does this narrative dehumanize whites?
54:07 Is this whole argument a bluff?
Glenn Loury (Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs, Brown University) and John McWhorter (Columbia University, Lexicon Valley, The Atlantic)
Recorded September 4, 2019
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Wao...I've been floored by this amazing conversation. What a pair of amazing intellectuals. Conversations like this gives me a lot of hope for America, despite the seemingly depleting fabric of our society.
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
The transatlantic slave trade wouldn't have existed if there hadn't been dense slave trading networks in West Africa, connecting the continent's interior to the Muslim empires in the Maghreb and Near East and the pagan coastal states (viz. the Yoruba and Dahomey Empires). These networks were established centuries before Europe entered the slavery business and acquired the ability to project real power overseas. A narrative that leaves this pre-history of slavery out cannot lay any claim to objectivity and truth.
Lol the transatlantic slave trade wouldnt have happened if Europeans did crave slaves, in Europe and especially In the "new world"
LiquidSoul Obviously that’s true, but it doesn’t mean what Jude’s is saying isn’t true as well. I very much doubt they were simply try to replace one overly simplistic reductive history with a different one equally simplistic & reductive.
LiquidSoul It wasn’t so much about “craving slaves” so much as it was craving wealth, and slaves were a conduit to that wealth.
@@daffyduck4674 hmm except jude conveniently left out the very important point, the slavery in the "new world" that developed here was solely because of European greed. His seemingly attempt to excuse, or ignore European instituting chattel slavery in the "new world" is childish
Yikes! "We come in peace," and it's all downhill from there...
Glenn Loury is brilliant. He always makes me see things from perspectives I’ve never thought of.
1619 Project = “...low rent thinking disguised as higher wisdom” lol and just started listening. More fun and enlightening conversation between Glenn and John.
Blacks have a knack for saying things in an interesting war. Natural poets.
Judy S. Nice to know that you recognise that those “Blacks” have some artistic skills!!
Yours is the most racist comment so far! Please don’t think me a “troll” & ignore what I’m saying. I believe that the attitude displayed in your comment is extremely damaging at this time in history...
Is this the first time that you’ve heard balanced intellectual discussion on the subject of race? I do NOT mean one-sided, blinkered activists talking unchallenged...
Rhetoric & statistics can be blinding.
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
I call this 1619 phenomenon fashionable racism
@GOWDER2414 then try a dictionary, look up " fashionable" then look up "racisim"(pre recent change in definition) and youl figure it out, see not to hard to do for yourself.
Well, unfortunately TRUTH hurts & it just IS...
@@luvintolrn9665 but the 1619 project has some obvious gaping fallacies, so many that historians requested corrections to flagrant omissions and errors. So yes the truth is the truth, but if your given partial truths ,or important omissions that is a lie. and that's the problem with the 1619, it is bullshit. I mean factually its BS. IN 1619 that had not h ing to do with America, America didn't exist yet. If you have a problem with slaverybin 1619 bring it up with England, France and Portugal. as far as America, it was founded understanding that slavery was abhorrent, and had the structure built into the constitution to actually end slavery. It never said the country was perfect, in order to form a "MORE" perfect union, does not read in order to for "A perfect union". And as time has gone on, our western civilization has done more to obliterate slavery world wide then ANY other culture. America has legally achieved equality( actually, over equality, but that's another story).( your welcome!). looking at the modern day slavery map, you will see that slaverybis still prominent in the same cultures that it has historically started and continued, mainly the middle East, Asia and Africa.
www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/data/maps/#prevalence
@@SM-bu9bz ohh how the decadent jeweled veil is lovely..😂🤣🤔😞
@GOWDER2414 The decadent veil must be beautiful.......
An interesting anecdote about subway etiquette. I'm a man in my early 50's who uses a cane because of a back injury. Last year I was sitting on a folding seat in a middle subway car. I had my head down reading, when I felt something hit my head. I looked up an older lady had a cane in her hand. She said "excuse me." I said that's OK and went back to my reading. She hit me on the head again. I looked up realizing she was telling me she wanted me to get up. I thought about it for a second and decided to get up. That's when she saw my cane and became extremely apologetic, waving at me to sit down." She then pointed at a young woman sitting across from me as if to say "I'll hit her on the head and make her get up." Either that or she was suggesting I hit the woman myself. I insisted she sit down and leaned against the door until she got off the train and I could reclaim the seat. I had never seen much less experienced anything like that before. A week later I was sitting in the same spot and a much younger man with a cane did the same thing to me. This time I just held up my cane and said no. I don't sit in the middle section anymore. Those seats give me headaches...
Apparently some people just don't believe back injuries unless it's their own back.
Enjoyed the last sentence by the way. Great punch line. Better than a swat with a cane.
Hah!
I'm listening to this in the middle of July 2020 ... When cities are drowning in BLM and antifa riots.
And the media is barely covering it.
About 45 days of riot/protests in Portland and MSM is silent. Glad the Federal Protective Service/DHS is standing up to these spoiled children!!!
Me, too. Saw these guys on Bret Weinstein's show and have been watching them.
@@williamcullen8756 Thank goodness for that roundtable! I didn't know about any of these amazing intellectuals and they've been saying all things I've been thinking…. ANDDD they're BLACK!!!
I've only had Eric, Brett and Sam Harris (Not that Glenn's opinion is more valid than theirs simply because of skin color, but the crazy zoomers and media make it seem like your opinion doesn't matter if you're white. So, how about the opinions of Glenn/John/Coleman/Kmele then, ya crazy PC police?!)
"drowning" poor little snowflake
I'd read a book of John McWhorter's "Subway Stories".
I love how both of you are so capable of taking both sides of the argument so easily. Sometimes I get the impression that John is the liberal and Glen the conservative, but you guys really explored this well.
Their positions may be better explained through their academic fields: one is a linguist, the other a mathematician/economist. Pure brilliance on both sides, though!
The fact that there are 2.8K Likes; and only 137 Dislikes -gives me hope. Wow-what an education I'm getting from these two. Bravo!
Glenn & John, you never fail to cast light. Thank you.
Glenn, I am Irish American and thank you for the shout out. My ancestors were oppressed, murdered and "transported" by the English for nearly 1000 years. As you know, many of them were used as labor on American jobs considered too dangerous to risk valuable slave "assets."
John, Thomas Aquinas's intellectual descendants actively helped the English accomplish that oppression. Perhaps Ta-Nehisi Coates could help me develop an Irish reparations regime for London and Rome. We could get the new African Catholic Bishoprics to cover Rome's part of the cost.
Can’t dump that on Aquinas or Rome Our ancestors stayed Catholic for a good reason, which is that the English were Protestants. It was Elizabeth who funded the pirates including Ralegh and Drake when raided the Irish coasts as well as Spanish treasure fleets. She redubbed them Privateers, and thereby changed international law which had hitherto been regulated by the Pope.
Gosh awful history. As unfortunate as the Poles. Course they had glory days, too. Days to come, too.
I absolutely love this thorough break-down of the "1619 Project." The feelings I had when I heard it was unsettling, but I thank you gentlemen for reassuring me I'm not crazy.
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
Also articles exposing identity politics.
Please do a podcast on "Mideast Slave Trade", "Sub-continent Trade",
Its well documented; but we don't hear it about it
Well, your narrative does not fit into the story the left wants to tell. Yes, they ignore the middle-east-slavery and also the suppression of women and so on, hence, seeing the middle east also as the victim as they see themselves too. An other try to undermine the winning system, against leftist utopias called communism, socialism and their thinking, from the once leading paper NT. How much hatred must they have against the winners, to pull out all these old rags and call this historical, although its just a tiny aspect of history, blown up for political and virtue signaling reasons. So the left wants to install 1619 as the founding moment of the US, an absurd and ideology driven twist of perspective and standpoint, with the only goal to tear it all down, so the winner and losers are rushed on the ground. Its so obvious, when leftists do something, their main motive is always envy and hatred of the successors, camouflaged by fake-compassion.
@@SEAsiaTraveler Slavery was an ugly constant in human history and the US are probably one of the most critical countries towards its past concerning slavery. I think we have quite good numbers by the European colonialists and just think of the slaves, the Osmans and other Muslim conquerors collected throughout history, by attacking European coasts, so the people escaped from there to the inlands, in northern Africa and throughout the belt from Cordoba to east Asia. It seems, the more open and self critical a system is, the more the left is hitting. Thanks for the numbers! Didn't know, the US had "only" 4% of the transatlantic slaves. The NT has become a leftist paper, so it follows a hidden agenda, that's why it keeps on being blind concerning the whole picture. They don't want to see it, cause the theme of slavery is only a left-leaning tool to hit the conservatives by shaming them, and they are quite successful with that, cause they feel guilt, which is actually a sign of humanism, whereas in other regions of the world people don't give a damn concerning their past of slavery. In a way they abuse the African Americans for their purposes by giving them the sweet poison victim card, so they have the benefit of being fake-virtuous and their enemies drown in guilt. Its an ugly patronizing game only the left gets a benefit, surely not the blacks, remember John telling the story from the sub in NY. Blacks will decline further and the left will say it was the ugly system. They are not interested in the outcome of all the poison goodies they offer, they want to feel good by being ignorant, otherwise they would teach to fish and not give fish.
Lol this is America. The 1619 project was about slavery in UsA and the effects through out American history . But ok dude
There is a sense in the West (especially "Left") that the Slavery was, directly or indirectly, caused by Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution.
But as Steven Pinker says countless time, that slavery was before the Enlightenment; slavery in ancient Rome, slavery in the Islamic world.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world
It was the Enlightenment values that abolished slavery around the world.
@@LiquidSoul06 There is a sense in the West (especially "Left") that the Slavery was, directly or indirectly, caused by Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution.
But as Steven Pinker says countless time that chattel slavery was before the Enlightenment; slavery in ancient Rome, slavery in the Islamic world.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world
It was the Enlightenment values that abolished slavery around the world.
Yes, Glenn, it's like being a musician (and particularly songwriters), where you're always trying to come up with things that push you just a bit further, and make your work a bit more interesting and revealing. I dig it... thanks for clarifying that, for those who seek the truth, and wish to further their skills, the work is never done. Of course that's what makes our fields of study, interesting. About the rest of the interview: bravo ! Glenn and John are always compelling to listen to. Their throught provoking analysis demands a focused listener's mind.
Cover? That must be White Lefties or Center Lefties looking for cover under which to be able to criticize the "1619" project.. As a Conservo, it took me about a minute to see that the idea was way too simplistic. The examples of two ancient cultures we know deeply from vast scholarship - Ancient Rome and Ancient Classical Athens - show us this. Both had much longer, much deeper involvement with slavery, and slavery by no means was the one big thing that dictated how people thought and acted. Oy! Yet, it's not hard to see why they would pursue this idea. These NY Times folks are the same bunch who have already decided to go from their failed "Trump-Russia" conspiracy theory push, to an "America is Racist through-and-through" push.
Powerful. This is exactly what we need right now to counter this nonsense - persistent, clear, intelligent speaking of the truth. Thanks Glenn and John!!
I am watching this for the second time. I love those two much. I could listen to them all day long!!!! 🙏🏾❤️
1:02:48 The utterly predictable Woke counterargument to Glenn's point here about the universality slavery is that slaves were not treated as chattel until the Transatlantic Slave Trade, but Orlando Patterson demolishes this myth in "Slavery and Social Death", and other historians have chronicled the chattel status of slaves in such far-flung locales as Kerala, Angkor, Mauritania, Yemen, Zanzibar, Transoxiana, Mindanao, Korea, etc.
An other try to undermine the winning system, against leftist utopias called communism, socialism and their thinking, from the once leading paper NT. How much hatred must they have against the winners, to pull out all these old rags and call this historical, although its just a tiny aspect of history, blown up for political and virtue signaling reasons. So the left wants to install 1619 as the founding moment of the US, an absurd and ideology driven twist of perspective and standpoint, with the only goal to tear it all down, so the winner and losers are rushed on the ground. Its so obvious, when leftists do something, their main motive is always envy and hatred of the successors, camouflaged by fake-compassion.
I believe in Mauritania the rates of slaves is @ 20% is of the chattel or familial type.
The racial animus and slave society vs. society with slaves: two things those who do history point out for the poor narrative retelling and revision of universal slave states all being equivalent. Sorry, but as much as you’d like to escape history, it’s not as simple as you’d like to make it.
GOWDER2414 I might not want to get bogged down in a 1940s account of race.
GOWDER2414 I say this because a ton of racists wrote and informed the history of the 30s and 40s. This is why WEB Dubois work on The Reconstruction was so transformative. Up until his work, it was thought that The Reconstruction was a failure of black people not being able to adequately take their place on the political and economic stage, and that was nothing more than racist narrative at work. So, unless those works from 1940 have anything important to add to the conversation that’s diametrically opposed to current thought, I’d rather not waste my time. I’m currently reading Francis Bacon’s collected works. It’s something that would keep us all thinking, of we really internalized them.
My family arrived in 1629 settled in salem area 12 generations ago. There are great records kept and many places with family name. There was slavery and it was the elite British ruling class. Many settlers didn't own and shunned slavery. Alot of settlers were indentured servants with no rites until debt was paid. Slavery was shunned in most colonies but England laws applied. Could go into more detail but wont. This has to be told and truthful. Most had no slaves but the pro england elite did use slavery but for there needs and Massachusetts was the most anti slavery state even before it was a state
Solipsism, postmodernism (a justification for intellectual solipsism), and emotional self-indulgence are a dangerous combination.
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
Write a book about the NY subway John
You guys are awesome. Thanks for your thoughts on this. At a bare minimum this discussion highlights the complexity of human behavior, motivation, and understanding and the risks of oversimplification.
So technically it was British citizens who brought slaves. Many wrong thing happened before 1776. That is why we had a 1776. To correct the wrongs. And we did it.
How can we stop the partiality of the 1619 Project from being taught in our schools? My former city of Newark, NJ is among the cities planning on teaching this version of history this 2020 season.
Look up the 1776 Project. And demand that your child’s school not teach it. Newark is tough, (I was born there) but if you have enough parents with you, you may get it taken out of the curriculum. It’s poison.
You have to get on the school board and gather support from like minded parents. To confront this insanity you need to familiarize yourself with the ideology. It's essentially post modernism. neomarxism and critical theory that has been taught at universities since about the 60's. The reason this is taking over is because the once students have taken over all out institutions ( government, education, business journalism, law etc etc etc). So it's not just limited to a small but vocal minority. I am still learning about this toxic ideology. It's very complicated. It explains why rioters are destroying Confederate statues as well as statues of abolitionists. Why the gender unicorn is being taught to kindergarteners. Why it's not that they dont listen to diverse opinions but that they dont think there is no such thing as free speech. Why the rioters shout kill America, and why they are calling for a revolution to tear down all out institutions. I can recommend you listening to James Lindsay, Helen Pluckrose and Boghossian ( authors of the grevience studies hoax). I suggest starting with James Lindsay. Watch as many of his interviews on u- tube as you can. Good luck. The more you understand what's going on the more terrified you will be.
Just to be perfectly clear, you have to be familiar with this ideology in order to prevent it being taught in schools. Supporters will say that 1619, just like the book White Fragility, is ultimately meant to reduce racism. Implicit in this will be that naysayers are themselves uminformed and racist. When the truth is that 1619 distorts/ rewrites history and support the narrative that our country is institutionally and systematically racist. You will not be able to win without using their own arguments. against them.
Pontificating rubes.I've always loved the word solipsism because it's all about one point of view. You can only tell a story from the perspective that you know. I love how they didn't cover any of the history in the first 20 minutes which is when I turned it off. You guys are supposed to be College professors and don't understand that people come from a lot of different backgrounds. To build a documentary or book that is compelling, you have to lay a solid foundation and that's exactly what I found this project to be.If a student turned this in at the doctoral level I would think it's a very lightweight attempt but as a large picture overview I think it's brilliant.
Just want to say that I rarely comment publicly but just have to now: this is a fantastic conversation! Thank you guys
I can’t believe Glenn is 71! He looks so much younger.
its because hes still using his mind , once you stop learning and thinking everyday thats when your mind and body start to age
Black don't crack.
Damn I’d give him 50-55 at most
Glad we AMERICANS have guys like Hughes coming up to replace him. Would love to have a conversation with either man. Not black, but crazy how much we look at things the same way.
He and his wife. They look like people in their early ‘60s.
Great conversation! This makes me feel a bit better about this whole Woke crap sweeping across universities. Thank goodness there are professors who are still this logical. Thank you, gentlemen! I'm going to look for more of these videos.
When I was in college in the 1950s, this is what liberal professors were like.
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
Also articles exposing identity politics.
The thing I love so much about these is not that they're always right - that, of course, is debatable - but that they always at least try to speak on the other side of the argument. It's something you rarely see from Coates, Hannah Jones and their ilk, even if I occasionally enjoy their points, it's an honesty that just isn't present
love this conversation, need people like this in Scandinavian higher ed.
Glenn, I've been around long enough and thought about it long enough that I don't need your cover. I'm capable of rational/logical thought. I'm just glad that I'm no longer teaching at the University. Keep up the good work.
My righteous indignation shouldn't effect the manner in which I sit on public transportation. If it does, maybe my indignation isn't righteous.
A commenter elsewhere put it succinctly: "There's a reason that American history has traditionally been taught starting with the Plymouth Colony, and not with Jamestown: because culturally and politically, it was Plymouth that laid the foundation for the nation, not Jamestown."
Hard to disagree with that.
Puritanism laid down the intellectual foundations of the United States. It is not found in Germany reform or Lutheran culture. Americans are surprise that Germans are not prudes as we are. “Wokeness” has a Puritan quality to it. Even Calvinist. They think themselves the Elect.
"When the Spanish conquistador Pedro Menendez founded St. Augustine in 1565, not only were there black members of his crew, but he noted that his arrival had been preceded by free Africans in the French settlement at Fort Caroline, just a few miles north.
Our oldest written records, the Cathedral Parish Archives, list the first birth of a black child here in 1606--thirteen years before many textbooks say that the first blacks on these shores arrived at Jamestown in 1619." www.visitstaugustine.com/history/black_history/introduction/index.php
Why do non-Black American people have such a hard time giving Blacks credit for anything other than being slaves?
Who do you hang out with that you don't hear anyone giving blacks credit for anything but slavery. Really?
@Tarek Jabal - I grant you the point, but is the point that valuable in the context of history... other than as an identitarian one? The only reason we track the English, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, and French .... and not other European countries... is that the countries tracked did most of the exploring and had the wars.
Are all black people responsible for an individual black person’s achievements?
I’m Not A Gamer - Interesting question. Are all whites responsible for the sins of some whites? If the answer to your question OR my question is “No,” then the answer to both questions must be “No.” That is true....unless you want the answer to both to be “Yes.”
@@StrategicWealthLLC All I am saying is the US own historical records show that the first Blacks on American soil did not arrive as slaves in 1619. And the records show free Blacks built a settlement before 1565. Thats at least about 54-years before Jamestown. But this kind of inaccuracy in the face of known facts to the contrary is rife in US and indeed European rendition of world history and the place of Blacks in the pantheon of history.
Third time I've listened to this discussion and each time it gives me more insight. I am disappointed that this discussion hasn't eclipsed one million views. Sadly we've become a very unserious society lead, willingly, by pseudo-intellectuals instead of doing the heavy lifting and learning from folks like Dr. Loury and Dr. McWhorter.
We seem to always skip over reconstruction after the civil war during Grant’s 8 year presidency where Black rights were enforced … Jim Crow came in after Reconstruction
Is possible that the 1619 Project is being used to bolster the case for reparations?
Im surprised they didn't say this within 2 seconds, seems quite obvious. The second point is an attack against capitalism.
@@truthseeker3397 Did they mention it somewhere in the discussion? I was hesitant about posting my original comment because I thought they might've said something about reparations somewhere in the video and I might've missed it.
@@AmandaFromWisconsin i didn't hear it... don't think i missed it
Just for reference the editor of the 1619 project avoided the issue but finally supported the notion of reparations. There is no evidence reparations would "work" Im fairly sure reparations would leave the African American population worse off after 5 years.
@@lairdgarvin1170 agreed. Reparations would be the ultimate form of welfare... with an even more deadly result.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments and comprehensive analysis.
Every race within any given community should want to represent their race. Represent in a way that creates a narrative connecting to an America which over came... to be come, one nation...with justice for all.
On the topic of 1619; may I suggest a bit of research pertaining to a plantation owner named Anthony Johnson, a former indentured servant, and his connection to a 1654 court ruling in response to a petition he filed.
Here we are, not even a year later, and the ideology discussed here has planted its roots deep into the heart of this nation.
Glenn, John and Coleman on Joe Rogan's podcast.
People forget correlation is NOT causation
I guess an argument could also be made that the USA is all about how white Europeans came here and between diseases and guns, displaced the Indian civilization.
Re: your closing note, yes, hurry back. There's a pressing need for your services, and thank you both - deeply - for your services.
@9:50 Duh? Not shocked at all by John's answer to Glenn's question, YES! I could get into my feelings and just stop listening as this is what I expected to hear from this perspective. But I won't. I will keep an open mind as I am intrigued enough to continue.
Actually that bit with the subway poles is a way of lowering yourself straight down into the seat and thereby being less likely to hit up against people on either side than if you just sat down in a regular manner (which is sort of landing from the side). So might have been done as a courtesy. However it might also indicate that he was a very tight fit for the seat and it’s an unspoken courtesy not to squeeze into a space like that in order to sit and if it’s a function of broad shoulders you don’t sit all the way back (for men, many times your hips fit but your shoulders do not). There are far larger points being made here, however, and wow would I love to run into JM on the train!
What we now call systemic racism is real, and it is evident in our school system through neglect and low expectation. Many of the policies that the democrats have forced into our school system have shifted our education away from classical education to activism. We now teach our children what to think and not how to think. We now have teachers proclaiming that math and science are racist. We neither expect our children to be able to fathom the complexities of a traditional education nor to have enough self control to be expected to behave appropriately inside of a classroom setting. When we expect little--excepting a few very strong willed and disciplined children--we get little. I myself had parents who told me "you can't" throughout my youth--you can't be a marine biologist; you can't be an archaeologist; you can't be a scientist. I became a housewife with a master's degree. I had it instilled from a very early age that I couldn't do anything that I would actually enjoy doing; so, I floundered. I am doing something I love now, but I lost time. A lot of it. The low expectation was wearing. This is what we are doing to our minority communities. The left has pushed it in the guise of respect for cultural differences, and the right has, as per usual, let the left have its way. Another comment, I was a white person integrated into a predominately black school where I was not welcome by the other children. It wasn't pretty. The black children didn't want us there, at least the ones that had been there in previous years. My parents told me to keep my head down and never, never confront a black person. I was told to take the abuse and just keep going because I had no recourse. Racism can be a very complex issue.
Slavery did not build this country. The northern economy was an economic powerhouse vs the southern plantation system.
Where can I read more about those black thriving districts that only went under due to desegregation?
Keep it up fellas (fellows?)
I found Dr. McWhorter's anecdote at 30:23 very depressing. I get how a young person could get to that point described but it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. It is easy to tell him to pull himself up by his bootstraps but that would only be possible for people who believe they even have bootstraps to pull up. I am not sure I see any remedy to the problem. I'd like to hear them discuss how we get past that.
A Glenn Loury & John McWhorter day is a good das
lol @ John's "Black guy" voice when he's telling the subway story? XD
Two beautiful souls. Dennis Pragers goodness detector is sounding off clear and steady.
Is a black man suffering from Schizophrenia, homeless and enjoying few social relationships really suffering as a result of slavery? Is a white man suffering from Schizophrenia, homeless and enjoying few social relationships benefiting from white privilege ? These ideas are juvenile.
"You win WITH people."
Mr. McWhorther gives a spot on definition of "scholastics" here. My fear is that we are almost at the stage of 1200AD again.
I agree 100% with John’s last minute. Lincoln, a garden variety racist in a ‘woke’ telling of his habits of thought, was light years ahead of his contemporaries not only in his understanding of race, but in his own inner flexibility to grow through the infernal struggle of the war years. As John contemptuously says of what I’ll simplistically call ‘woke ideology’, views of Lincoln that elide Lincoln’s fundamental hermeneutic of the slave owning founding father, Jefferson, are missing a simple, but profound seed of human freedom buried in the compost and blood of our founding.
FYI - I got a lot out of 1619 project without buying altogether into the so called anti-racist ideology. Glenn touched on this but I’d like to hear more about your thoughts on systemic racism as opposed to slavery or Jim Crow. For example the fact of redlining and its impact on Black wealth accumulation through home buying and maintenance. Wasn’t that systemic racism and didn’t that contribute to the many ills of black communities to the present day? Didn’t that erode primary school opportunities for later prosperity enjoyed by the white middle class?
I’m going to take a look at Orland Patterson... thanks for a thought provoking video.
This conversation is so sad. We need to be repaired. These two brothers, I don't know...
Why? Why do you NEED to be repaired? You can't be healthy if you're not repaired? You can't find love if you're not repaired? You can't be decent to your neighbor and teach your children to be decent to their neighbor unless you're repaired?
Is it a need or is it an excuse to feel miserable?
So much slavery all over the world and so many countries used slavery as a part of their economy. Had to have slave labor in order to compete until market economies gained sufficient productivity that slavery was no longer necessary to maintain competitiveness.
This nation is not unique in that way. It is fairly unique in its being among the first to abolish slavery and unique to have 600,000 people die in a fight that, whether it was fought exclusively for that reason or not, resulted in slavery’s abolition.
Shelby Steele’s recognition that America has corrected a recognized historical immorality is also true.
One of the many powerful moments in the film Selma was when MLK, Jr and the others, before a march, had a prayer session to examine their own hearts, to confess the things they were doing that they themselves needed to work on personally and as a group, and to clear anything that was based on hate and revenge away do that the movement was one promoting live and justice. To look at the specks in their own eye before protesting against the log in White America’s eye.
BLM deserves less respect for their lack of this self-examination.
Thomas Aquinas and The Middle Ages needs more respect from John. Took in the anti-religious fake news of Protestant and Enlightenment propagandists a bit too much.
I am so glad I've been following you both. I am boring midwest white -- and finding myself increasingly self-censoring around my black co-workers. On always has cool hair, I've commented on the changes over the years, but noted I was consciously NOT doing it at the last meeting. I hate this.
There are many whites in the Midwest who are not boring.
Standing ovation.
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times....... Life goes on though we very diverse people do our absolute best to destroy what has often been described as the very best system ever devised on the planet. Warts and all. It is an imperfect country. But it is my country and I love it. Love
Brilliant. Not looking for African Americans to critique. The problems with the project are so pervasive that anyone can take a shot. But as these professors note, it is not with glee that the project should be trashed. NYT and NHB missed an opportunity for education on black history by having to create, as these guys incisively noted, has become religion.
Fantastic discussion, I'm going to check out other discussions.
The elocution of Mr. McWhorter is impeccable.
So are they debating the truth or the effect that it puts on white fragility?
The end of slavery in America did not, necessarily, equate to “freedom” for the formerly enslaved Black people in this country. To blow past terrorism, Jim Crow, lynching, not to mention, the repeated destruction of Black communities by the hands of mobs and/or the repeated results of imminent domain applications, after Emancipation is problematic.
This is an interesting conversation. I like to hear different opinions argued intelligently and honestly. Thank you.
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
Also articles exposing identity politics.
Great conversation. I'm looking forward to more.
Very good conversation between two very smart men. I feel like part of the last point needs further discussion though. As I understand it lincoln feared the sort of racism and discrimination that eventually emerged and that is why he considered relocating the freed slaves. I could be wrong though which is why I'd like the further discussion.
It's really not only race, but, also gender which has been used to "retell" history. Girls could possibly conceive children at the age of 13. So if a child is 10 and the mother in the census is 23, the automatic presumption is that it is likely that IS the mother of that child and if one fails to find documentation that another woman was a previous wife it is commonly accepted that she was. The prevailing viewpoint being that older men consistently married teenage girls and had babies by them when they were that young. The census document is cited as PROOF that this WAS the case. The problem is not that more documentation is needed to prove a "fact." The problem is that the standard has been "lessened." And less documentation is needed to prove a "fact." Or lack of documentation is accepted as a reason to merely accept whatever IS available as long as it fits the accepted socio-political narrative of the "revised" history. The idea of a teenage bride is more fitted to the accepted narrative than the idea that there was an older wife who died and documentation simply has not survived to identify her. It's acceptable to do whatever it takes to fill in the blank rather than leave the information blank because we don't have the documentation with the information to fill it in. Emotional hysteria around older men having sex with teenage brides takes precedence over rational resignation and acceptance of the lack of surviving documentation.
Also (probably stupid question because this project doesn't sound like it was a well thought out, well researched, detailed study of history, but the European political systems in 1619 were all monarchies. None of them were essentially "American" democratic republics. That nation didn't exist in 1619. So a monarchy in 1619 that was not "America" couldn't really be said to be the beginning of "America".
Also if one looks at the Muster Lists of the early to mid 1620s in Virginia (only a few years after 1619) there were very few black people listed. I don't know if there is any real way to determine what their lives were like either. Were they actually slaves or were they servants? Were they treated any differently than the much more enormous number of white servants in Virginia at the time? I believe the black servants or slaves were all in households of officers of the colonial government. I would suspect that their treatment actually might have been better in those households than white servants in the households of lower ranking masters and/or mistresses.
I also notice there has been an attempt in recent years to nod at the existence of white servants in Virginia, but, the phrase always used is "Indentured white servants" to make some kind of distinction between their treatment as opposed to the treatment of black slaves. The problem with that argument is that there is no evidence that all (or even most) white servants in Virginia at that time were "indentured." Can these "historians" produce copies of the Indenture Agreements?
Coldham's books, in fact, make it very clear that a large number of British servants in Virginia were shipped there against their will and were not indentured at all. They were vagrant children picked up off the streets. Their parents were told that they were being shipped to the English colonies to be servants. The parents COULD refuse, but, they were then advised that they could no longer expect relief from the parish. Also large numbers of men and women in the jails were shipped off against their will as servants. At that time in England standing up to your "betters" was a crime and the sentence for petty crimes like that could be hanging or a long prison sentence which was possibly a death sentence as well given the unhealthy conditions of British prisons at the time.
So the tapestry of history is far too complicated to merely hit upon the idea that 1619 was some kind of monumental year or that white labor played no role or very little in creating the foundation of wealth in "America."
This argument runs into the same problem as the argument in favor of reparations. Who is entitled to reparations today? And who should be required to provide it? Are the descendants of Eastern Europeans who escaped to America from Soviet regimes behind the Iron Curtain responsible to pay for reparations? And are the descendants of Bahamians who came to America during the Depression entitled to receive them? What arguments for or against these questions could be given?
It is disturbing that this project has been adopted by some elementary schools as the accepted curriculum for teaching history. I'm not surprised that it has been, but it's still disturbing.
No, I don’t believe that is the reason. That was just obvious to you. It’s not about disparities.
Wow, what a roller coaster ride. It all seems true to me.
Slavery abolished 1807 in England
If only we had this attitude about revisionist white American history... I am fine with correcting the record. But the elitism is thick. The black Boule is running rampant.
Thank you gentlemen,for being a perfect example of am axiom from John Henric Clarke. He said that "all you've told me about is how much you haven't read"... It's amazing to me with all the accessibility to data,along with our legacy. That you all don't see 1619 as an origin point? That's when our toxic trip began and when conditioning us for the holocaust that we deal with on a daily basis.
Adolph Reed has a great analysis.
Great again!
Thank for being smart thoughtful and very educating
Shameful!
Brother Loury:-Pls let John speak more! You're very learned but it feels sometimes as if John is an audience member and not an interlocutor.
John speaks when he wants. I don't see what you are saying.
So here is a chilling thought: If someone is willing to short change reality to gain power, how far will they go to retain it?
@Timothy Somerville TDS. He lives in your head for free.
Look at examples like the Soviet Union, Maoist China, and many others and you can see where this all goes. It always ends the same way. Millions dead.
No one ever listens to the warnings because we always forget the lessons of history. That's why we are always on repeat.
This sort of thing is typical nationalist behavior. Like the Irish who tried to revive the Irish language after it had been dead as living language for several generations. but not for its own value but as a way of dissing the English. Didn’t work, whereas the Welsh language survives, as a valuable legacy of the country.
I feel the chill !
The answer is in front of your nose if you’re an American citizen.
who wants to chip in to buy Glen a new camera?
I prefer a better mic first.
Sailorforlife BESTTI I’ve thought about sending him a microphone. I’ve got an extra usb mic I don’t use.
He spent all the money on books
@@matthewharvey3556 money well spent.
Lol
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, these two need their own show.
Skeptical but open is this not their own show?
Anthony David no, a large group of individuals make up bloggingheads.tv. They needs their own channel. With a weekly video.
@@skepticalbutopen4620 My hunch is that they are both appearing exactly as much as they want to. Glenn pretty much does do a show a week when he has the time. I don't get the feeling that John wants to talk about race with Glenn for an hour each and every week. They are both busy with their academic careers and John is raising children.
They can call it “The John Glenn Show” to mess with people.
@Megalodon Unlocked That sounds nice, but they live kinda far apart.
Read Thomas Sowell's "The Real History of Slavery". The section on slavery in America and the process of it's abolition is eye opening.
As an African-immagrant-American I have benefited a lot from these dialogues! It's like thatfeeling I got when first discovered Moby Dick or Sowell.
Gad Saad too, check him out.
Welcome to America! Make your dreams come true!
WOW!!!! What a conversation... there's so much in here... Thank you, professors!
real men know how to wear pink
Pink shirts were “in” in the 1950s.
I think the trick is getting a pink piece of clothing and putting it on.
Judy S. Hahahah ... Are you saying his fashion is antiquated? I have worn pink from time to time. But, I find that a plum color (maybe had one the same as Glenn’s) matches better with my complexion.
@James Gray i love it even more now.
I'm a "double-woke" white guy who just stumbled onto your show while seeking some context to understand the 1619 project. Thanks for enlightening me.
GOWDER2414 Try not to be overly paranoid. It’ll cause you to have a clear lack of judgment. 😁😘
Just dont double park in the hood cause you'de be woke no mo
Check out Gad Saad and Rubin to continue your enlightenment. :-)
Try reading the world socialist website articles on the 1619 project, the following link is a good place to start
www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/12/28/nytr-d28.html
The WSWS articles exposes the historically fraudulent 1619 project.
Do a search on the WSWS website as there are numerous articles and interviews.
@GOWDER2414
And the link I posted debunks the 1619 project. Try not to shoot from the hip.
There are numerous articles.
As for socialism being an appendage of white supremacy is nonsense.
Socialism stands for workers of the world unite.
These guys should have 5 million views, 10 million views for each discussion.
I wish. People are accustomed to memes. This discussion is complicated.
If Glen released a music video where he sang about drugs, shooting & his “stable of prostitutes”, surrounded by half naked young black women twerking etc he would achieve “10 million views for each discussion”.
Should he “play the game”?
Why not?
Agreed!
Maybe they do. UA-cam manipulates the views numbers.
UA-cam quashes the organic spread of topics its soulless bureaucrats dislike, and promotes the hate-filled garbage that they prefer.
If you have any doubt of that, search for "white fragility" (no quotes) while not logged in (so your own recommendations don't influence it), and you will get two pages of exclusively pro-DiAngelo videos...despite the fact that even with this corrupt help they aren't getting many views.
And then make the effort to find the anti-DiAngelo videos. You'll see that, despite the corrupt suppression of being lowered in results, they get far more views. Which, in a fair system, would drive them to the top of the results.
Google is corrupt and dishonest, distorting views through its agenda in exactly the sort of way "the Russians" supposedly did in 2016.
Frankly, there is NOTHING wrong with Russia buying ad space for their own political posts. That is not actually "election interference".
But a social media company secretly showing more of their political side and less of the other IS election interference.
I've been trying to understand the purpose of the 1619 Project. As an older white woman thank you for helping me understand a little bit better. I thoroughly enjoyed your program and plan to listen to others in the future.
I’ve been a fan for a long time. First time commenting. Thank you for being willing to have these conversations, in public and sharing them.
Glenn's laugh made me smile for the 1st time in days. Thank you.
He seems to be a nice man. His wife, whom I have seen briefly, is a good match for him.
Would you all ever talk to Thomas Sowell or Walter E Williams?
let them enjoy their retirement.
Dr Sowell just released another book at 90 years old. He is still sharp as and on point.
13:45 - "Isn't it curious, slavery is commonplace in human history. What's unique, what's interesting, what's different, is the abolition of slavery." -Glenn Loury
I never looked at it that way. We still have a long way to go, but we can't just take these kinds of heroic feats for granted.
26:06 Voldemorting Coates :P
Hah. I thought that's who they were talking about.
These men are undoubtedly educated far above my level. There is no doubt in my mind there will always be some type of evil in our world, however as they got closer to the end of this talk I found myself almost weeping. There ability to search for truth and the honesty with which they shared, reached a platform of which to be desired. I am so tired of each view being so slanted that any truth presented reeks of excrement. I would be a better person if I were more like you two. Thank you.
Glenn/John - Thanks for your thoughts, as always. I have been reading a lot about Critical Theory/Critical Race Theory. Frankly, it scares the hell out of me... especially given its spread thru colleges, law, education,and journalism. Do you think that people have been influenced by that theory (whether they know it or not) and that influence is driving the creation of concepts like “whiteness” and projects like 1619?
@Rebecca Mattis - I agree. Furthermore, I am increasingly of the opinion that CRT is as dangerous to the world today as Marxism was a century ago. Of course, those ideologies are just derivations each other.
Bruce Wing: Actually, it begins before college...my child was indoctrinated with critical theory and CRT in high school. (This is a school where Ta-Nehisi Coates is worshipped and required reading). The debate team is proudly committed to critical theory and CRT as a team. Students adopt the doctrine on faith. They never see alternative perspectives like John, Glenn, Coleman, and so many other brilliant, thoughtful and scholarly minds.
What scholars have you been reading in that tradition?
Have you read the 1619 project?
If you have not, I encourage you to read it for yourself. The 1619 project will appear as a single mote against the mountainous pile of historical research that reveres the Founders, and all the typical narratives of American exceptionalism. It is a good thing to have other narratives.
@@StrategicWealthLLC America is a country where in 1931 hundreds of whites gathered outside a hospital, dragged out an unconscious black man, stabbed him with an ice pick and burned him alive. They then tore pieces of his body off as souvenirs. There are black people alive today who were children when this kind of thing would happen. There is something deeply unsettling about how America relates to those with black skin.
@Omar W - That was truly an awful thing that happened to Matthew Williams. Do you know how many blacks were hung in the 150 years since the Civil War? About 3,000. That is not black history. That is American history. Unbelievably cruel and stupid that stuff was.
Does that happen anymore? No, it doesn’t.
But there are nearly 17,000 American citizens murdered in the US every year. I don’t know what percentage are white, black, etc. Frankly, I don’t care. I simply want those murders stopped. Most Americans feel the same way.
I don’t want to diminish the horrible things that blacks have gone through in America’s history. At the same time, we have to put things in some kind of perspective. While a poor analogy, think about other historical events that have occurred since Matthew Williams’ murder. We had WWII, but today, we don’t hate the Japanese or Germans....despite their rape and murder of women, children, the attempted elimination of an entire race of people, and massive use of torture (by Japanese). We had Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq, too. Outside of concerns about Muslim extremism, we don’t hate the Vietnamese, Koreans, or Iraqis.
We also understand that children should not be held responsible for their fathers' sins.
I am not saying that there is no racism in America. I am saying that the overwhelming majority of Americans are not racist. It is wrong to forget the past, but it is also wrong to project the past onto the present.
The 1619 Project takes truths and writes them too large. It makes no reference to the fact...the FACT...that Benjamin Franklin led the largest abolitionist society in America. It makes no mention of the FACT that slavery was outlawed in the northern states by 1805. The federal government also outlawed the international slave trade in 1807. The 1619 Project makes no mention that the view of the role between federal authority and state authority prior to the Civil War was that the federal government could not stop existing states from legalizing slavery because of states rights. The federal government could halt slavery in new states, however....which is what it did (for the most part). There is no reference to the fact that black soldiers led Lincoln's casket as it was led through the center of Washington DC after Lincoln's assassination.... and whites that admitted liking Lincoln being killed were beaten by other whites. Jim Crow laws were state laws, not federal laws. Red lining was a state issue, not a federal issue. I am not saying that the federal government did nothing wrong (separation of troops by race in WWI and WWII).
At the same time, if everything is about power, the power dynamics between the races, and that races will do what they can to maintain their power as Critical Race Theory suggests, then explain: (1) why whites were advocating for the end of slavery 100 years before the Civil War, (2) why slavery was outlawed and blacks were made citizens under the US Constitution, and (3) why there were federal civil rights acts passed in the 1860s, 1950s, and 1960s...through legislation signed by white US representatives, senators, and presidents....and advocated for by white citizenry.
If everything is about racial power, then none of those things could have happened...because whites were the majority in America at the time. Yet, those things did happen...suggesting that race isn't the only thing that matters. People will respond to reason and justice...even if they may have to be hit over the head with it.
America's history with race is filled with nuance that the 1619 project does not even attempt to address.