Voyager Lore : Year of Hell (Failure of Time Agents)
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- What's up Lore Masters,
Let's discuss the Year of Hell and some of its implications.. .. Cause any of this will matter..
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Year of Hell is a closed time loop, they don't need to intervene as Voyager is predestined to destroy the ship and reset the timeline.
Tuvok is the only really deranged One on Board. The others are ALL just Mentally Unstable...
Well, except Naomi Wildman - her Intellegence was weirdly varying for some reason, going up and down, but i still liked her.
Since the time agents are from a point post voyager, it would be reasonable to infer they can tell the temporal anomaly occurred and corrected without intervention. Unlike their inability to determine their own involvement is what triggered the destruction of Earth, causing them to create the event where Voyager was part of the destruction of Earth, the stranding of one of their officers in the past, placing their timeship in the hands of a “viewing audience era” opportunist and subsequently their previously stranded officer’s effort to destroy Voyager preemptively, in another set of episodes. Maybe the time agency should clean its own house before meddling in the past?
To quote the O'Briens: I hate temporal mechanics.
To quote Ford Prefect, "Time is an illusion; lunchtime, doubly so."
ah, the HHGTTG
Hey! My sister is a temporal mechanic!
If the Delta quadrant time tampering didn't affect the known events in the Alpha quadrant, would the Federation Time Agents bother?
Depends on their "jurisdiction". We don't know if they were responsible for monitoring time changes across the Alpha Quadrant, the Milky Way or the entire cosmos. We have no indication of what the full scope of their duties are, their technological level, full agent equipment loadout, training curriculum or personal capabilities (I would also argue that they might be genetically engineered in some minor ways, like Bashir for example, maybe for things like immunity against common illnesses or sickness, better eyesight/hearing/smell, etc, increased intelligence, increased strength, speed, endurance, survivability and agility - that would seem to be just some of the basic traits for someone from the future who needs to be able to adapt to any situation- you would of course use any advantage that future technology gives you in able to increase probability of mission success). We merely see glimpses of some temporal tricks that current time period Federation has, and advanced tech tricks or knowledge of how to adapt current tech for specific purposes that temporal agents have across multiple Trek series. We see current Federation ships, for example, able to create temporal shielding, but no ships doing any kind of time travel like Kirk did, either in preventing disasters or for temporal experiments?
One of the Biggest Plot Holes is the Fluid Space - they know how to go there and come back.
Any idea how many options that gives them?!
From the second they learned this, they could have never been trapped again, and even in fights, they can just leave!
They could arguably have done this even BEFORE making Peace with 8472, but without argue AFTERWARDS!!
They also didnt even tried to tell 8472 to continue hunting the Borg, which is also a HUGE Thing, aint it?
But the ability to enter and leave the Fluid Space alone is a Plot Hole.
It wasn't my understanding that they were Federation specific Time agents. And dealing with time, they wouldn't have just limited themselves to the alpha and beta quadrants which is officially where the Federation overlaps I think or at least it's where the well-known sections we view of Star Trek exist
That's.... A good question
"The tactile interface was a feature of 24th century LCARS panels, which altered the normally flat panels (intended to be read) so that beings with poor eyesight or who were blind could still use the consoles. A Starfleet officer could activate it by telling the computer to "activate the tactile interface."
It also helps them if they do not want to look at eh panel. You don't have to be blind to need it.
Still damn impressive that he could use it quite well after spending his entire prior career using a visual interface.
Yeah, but Star Fleet has yet to get rid of those claymore mines known as their various consoles, @@Silverhawk100.
Tuvok is the only really deranged One on Board. The others are ALL just Mentally Unstable...
Well, except Naomi Wildman - her Intellegence was weirdly varying for some reason, going up and down, but i still liked her.
With projections of micro-forcefields, you could also give your tactile-interface touch panels a haptic feedback element, which could be useful in partitioning the LCARS display to prevent a wandering finger from slipping off the subspace fine-tuning controls into the Arm Weapons cluster and onto the Fire Torpedo key, resulting in an amiable first-contact hailing frequency chit-chat with the Newalienoftheweekians turning into an all-out Beta Quadrant battle royal.
The Prime Directive doesn’t apply to warp-capable civilizations. But I guess it also only apply when it drives the plot forward.
It does apply to interference in another government's internal affairs, as shown with the Klingon Civil War in the Next Generation.
Yes, I think Memory Alpha also says that, but I think that is an example of plot necessity. 🤷♂️
I think also given Voyager's unique circumstances, they sometimes pretty much ignored it or stretched it a little because, where is starfleet?
@@dumaskhanThe Prime Directive has been flat out ignored or "accidently" broken in multiple instances, like with Garth of Izar's actions, Kirk giving weapons to a primitive race, Kirk destroying a computer that oversaw a race, .. Dmit, Kirky, you had one job to do (Prime Directive)… :P
I would say the 'prime directive' as it relates to interfering in another government's internal affairs is based on a different set of rules than that of the 'prime directive' in relation to pre-warp civilisations.
But overall I find the implications of the early TNG episode 'angel one' to be the most fascinating, and also the most problematic.
Because they imply the 'Prime Directive' is a STARFLEET regulation, NOT a Federation law...
Given that the planet in question is definitely pre-warp (technological, but comparable to current day Earth, not a warp capable civilisation), the fact that even in a context like this, Federation civilians can apparently 'ignore' the prime directive (as the freighter captain pointed out to Riker) is...
Interesting, to say the least...
I think that Red Foreman was really trying to reset everything to the 70’s...but really, this was a good episode. Voyager plot holes aside, this showed a lot of the core of how these characters were in their base functions. Their base emotions and character flaws exposed for all.
And it failed because Janeway was a dumbass
Well, he tried to put his foot into too many asses and I guess karma caught up
@@munkykng416 Probably why the time agents stayed away. They found out he wasn't kidding and they're a bunch of weedy nerds who couldn't escape a good ass kickin'!
"you screwed up the timeline you dumbass!"
Wasn't he also the President of the Federation?
My argument for why the 29th century temporal agents didn't get involved is because this is a 24th century timeship. So while it's interfering with the timeline, but the 29th century it is part of the history books and correcting whatever damage it did would be kind of like going back in time to stop a war. My understanding of the temporal agents is that their primary responsibility is to clean up their own messes or messes made by other 29th century agents, not to undo all time manipulation that occurred prior to their establishment.
It's also possible that they just didn't care because this temporal ship was dealing strictly with a sector in the Delta Quadrant. It's not known what the borders are of the cold war factions, but this might have simply been too far from home for them to focus on.
Or that they are already a known quantity. No other time traveler interacts with them and thus they are stuck in a loop of creating the time ship, making change after change, until eventually erasing themselves away and starting again. While they are making changes, it's localized to the sector and time period in which they operate.
I agree with you. The Krenims’ temporal changes are only effecting their local space and probably all the changes are “part of history”....
8:36 I'm going to have to disagree with you that the information about the Borg being present during first contact was hidden by Starfleet. Here's why:
Voyager went missing in 2371, the events of First Contact happened later in November 2373 while voyager was in the Delta Quadrant. There is no way that when the Enterprise returned home to 2373 and filed their mission logs that the crew of Voyager would know as at that point, Voyager had no contact with Starfleet.
Also Lily and Zefram were the only people to know about the Borg and that the Enterprise was from the future. I'm pretty sure they were given the temporal prime directive speech and told to keep it quiet about it. It was confirmed in the Enterprise episode "Regeneration" that Zefram made only a single reference to the Borg at all and later dismissed it as a joke.
So all of this is to say that there was no cover-up, it's just happened in 2373 and by then Voyager was out of contact and the only people in 2063 that knew about it kept the secret for the sake of preserving the future. It's pretty funny to imagine the Voyager crew being told though, Barclay calling them up and telling them:
Barclay: "Hey, did you know that Riker and La Forge were on the first ever warp flight"
Janeway: *Visable Confusion*
Further evidence: First Contact, the Mk I EMH made a cameo. The EMH was one of the brand new technologies that Voyager was supposed to be field testing, so the Enterprise wouldn’t have gotten one until after Voyager was dragged to the delta quadrant.
He's a doctor not a doorstop!
Star Fleet and the United Earth, possibly later the upper echelon of the Federation, knew about the Borg over 200 years before the official first contact with them. They also learned more about them from Guinan's people. So people did know about them, but it took Q interfering to bring about much wider knowledge about them to the Alpha Quadrant powers.
@@henrynorcrossii3363 until Q's actions starfleet probably didn't even consider them a real threat to keep their captains briefed on. Their only information on them was reports from survivors from Guinan's people which if someone bothered to look at and cross reference with incidents from before the existence of the federation might've notice the description of the borg matched those of a small group of aliens that stole a ship and transmitted a message to the delta quadrant.
Tuvok is the only really deranged One on Board. The others are ALL just Mentally Unstable...
Well, except Naomi Wildman - her Intellegence was weirdly varying for some reason, going up and down, but i still liked her.
Hi again, just wanted to point out something that made me chuckle.
13:06 you say "With Voyager completely destroyed and near inoperable" lol
Yeah I would think it would be inoperable if it was COMPLETELY DESTROYED lol
Regarding Seven’s knowledge of the Battle of Sector 001, keep in mind that Voyager left DS9 long before the battle and has only had intermittent, somewhat insecure communication since then. So, saying that the Borg traveled back in time, might not be on the “let’s spread this across the whole galaxy list”
1st: love this intro. it feels right for these types of episodes
2nd: I was expecting a mention of when Kes told Janeway about this and how they remembered... oh-wait-they-didn't
Kes' powers have often looked at the wrong timeline enough times, they've likely just kind of realised that they are only relevant when they haven't changed the timeline--and they have usually already changed the timeline to make it not relevant, that it because a "boy who cries wolf" type reaction.
I would even consider it a fair attempt at paying it off if in the final timeline, when they were warned about the contested space, Janeway said, "oh, the Krenim? We've been warned about them. We'll go around."
Voyager pushed to their limits... heartache... and sympathetic villain...
Oh, he's a level 1. He doesn't care how many lives he destroys as long as he gets his wife back. No wonder "time wouldn't let him."
Okay...first, time agents likely didn’t intervene as they knew Voyager closes the loop, but the time ship has a weapon that deletes things from time. Unless ships like Relativity are immune to such a weapon, imagine the paradox of being shot by such a weapon. Second, we learn how things end. When Voyager rams the time ship, the weapon detonates...erasing the time ship. The episode ends with the time ship’s captain looking at designs for the ship but putting them away.
The plot was thus. He made the time ship. He used it to erase an enemy race. This results in his wife being dead as a disease ravaged his species that the enemy race cured. His pursuit was for 100% restoration...which was unobtainable. He became like Ahab hunting his white whale.
I believe the time ships are immune to such weapons, since they police time they need to be able to notice the differences between what is and what should be and the only way they would be able to do that is with temporal shields.
@@frag2k12 And temporal sensors (they've got temporal transporters, so it's plausible they have other temporal technologies as well). However, you need something to happen in "real space" otherwise you can't get a fix on an origin point (and the time ship existed in a place beyond space-time, and was unaffected in any way technologically by any of the temporal changes). Also, tiny changes in time might have massive consequences further down the line in the timestream, so if a critical technology isn't invented for use by the Temporal Agency, their operational capability can be upgraded or downgraded at any moment for any reason (unless shielded permanently from temporal changes, which seems unlike due to shield gaps necessary for temporal transportation - beam-ins and beam-outs).
You forgot to mention the issue where Voyager shouldn't have needed to go through this space to begin with. Half a season earlier in the episode "Before And After," Kes experiences life in reverse, and goes through the Year of Hell, including finding that exact same frequency. At the end of the episode, the crew is chatting it up about Kes's experiences. It ends with Tuvok pointing out a report on "these Krenim" might prove useful, which she goes and writes up right away.
Enter Season 4's episode "The Gift". Kes dematerializes/ascends and sends the ship hurling over 9,000 light years, or "ten years closer to home," as Janeway states. Then, 6 episodes later we get "The Year of Hell". Given that Ocampa have a life expectancy of 9 years, this makes no sense. They should have been thrown years past that, given that Kes was there during the Year of Hell flashback/futureback timeline she experienced. This timeline is different, but the territory is the same.
To top it off, even though the crew DOES experience the Year of Hell anyway, they act like the Kremin are something they know nothing about, as if Kes's report or conversations never existed.
Unless the actions of the Krenim altered these events.
Perhaps there’s a wormhole they never found due to the 8472/Borg war. But... Kes wrote a report and they already had the temporal frequency of the torpedo because they used it to save Kes. Oh, and it was 47 so I’m kinda amazed it’s not standard Starfleet policy to try imputing a 47 First whenever they need to guess a number.
I'll grant you that voyager should have known about the krenim through the report of kes, that also bugged me a lot... But:
First: the thing about Kes being there in the year of hell does make sense IMO. If i remember correctly (i might not be as it has been a while since i saw the episode) it is said in this episode that kes by this time is the oldest ocampa that has ever lived. This is probably thanks to federation medical advances unknown to the ocampa, and maybe treatments the doctor invented in this future timeline. For all we know Kes is 18y old when she is dying, not 9. Not sure if her age is ever mentioned? And yes maybe they did find a shortcut if kes remained on board, but kes now not being onboard changed the timeline?
Secondly: when kes experiences the year of hell, the krenim are quite able to cause quite some serious damage. When Voyager meets the krenim the second time in year of hell, the krenim can barely make a dent in voyagers shields. So this definitely is a different timeline from what Kes experienced. The territory is not the same. The krenim claim the territory, but it is not recognised by anyone else and is actually claimed by the zahl at first in this version of the year of hell. It is only when everything changes becasue of the incursion that it becomes Krenim territory again. My reasoning is that what kes experienced is an alternate future, and what we see in the year of hell proves that. The year of hell with the weak krenim is a result of a time incursion the time ship did, that turned out bad for the krenim, reducing them to nothing. What Kes experienced was a differnt time before one or multiple other time incursions. We see the change from weak krenim to powerfull krenim happening in the episode "the year of hell", and it is due to another incursion by the time ship.
And this makes sense too, it is reasonable to assume that the time ship is doing incursions all the time, but that voyager simply is not affected very much as they are not from the delta quadrant, so history doesn't affect them much. And when history changes, they don't notice as they change with the incursion. And they are travelling in a straight line all the time and travel great distances, so the time incursions don't affect voyager much since they are far away in regions that aren't affected. Voyager isn't affected until they come near (former) krenim space since this is the region of space that is affected the most by all the time incursions.
But yes, it would have been cool to see some small changes in the episodes between "the gift" and "year of hell", which aren't explained until "year of hell". That would have been super cool. Wondering what the hell is going on for a few episodes only to have the big "oooooh wow" moment in year of hell...
But in the end voyager was a traditional episodic-format series, which was the standard at the time. DS9 was the exception, not the rule... That is my main gripe with voyager: that they stuck to the episodic format so much. Every episode we got a reset to default. It would have been so cool to have voyager as a "frankenship" by season 7, with all kinds of alien tech strapped to it, panels changed, armour in patchwork colours and so on... Really show that they had to make due with what they could get and what they were able to obtain from alien races... I was so happy to see voyager with borg tech all over in scorpion. Finally! But then an episode later they invent some lame excuse of "incompatibility" and have voyager back to its pristine state...
Can't have it all i guess?
The whole catalyst for the year of hell was because Janeway didn't want to let a piss ant walk all over her. And completely disregarding the locals because fuck the prime directive, this guy was rude to me. Low point in janeways character development indeed, glad it never happened
@@johanwittens7712 That was a pet peeve of mine as well - the fact that Voyager was in a brand new region full of exotic and advanced technologies and it took no steps to actually study any of the technologies for utilization in their journey back home or for further study purposes once they got home for integration into Federation science - the Sikarian trajectory with 10,000s of light years range, the weapon's dealer cannon that could shoot through armored targets (that we never got to see in action again), the Voth, the ion cannon bombardment from the planet that imprisoned the Voyager crew (which would have been a cool addition to planetary security for the several times that the crew wanted/were forced to ditch Voyager for a possible colony. The times that Voyager bartered with alien races with Federation tools and technology, and hardly seemed to gain any useful tech back. No new technology created for Voyager, despite having multiple detailed scans of planets with civilizations, ships, stations, etc. No ability to use transwarp corridor, yet Picard could somehow enter one with a Galaxy class. Borg enhancements to … "systems" (no indication of which systems, by the way). Tricobalt warheads that were only used once. A probe that was "revolutionary", only used once. The Delta Flyer - an improvement over shuttles, only used a couple of times. Several Borg crewmembers, but nobody has the "connection" to the Borg that Picard has to hear where weak spots or critical systems are on vessels in battles against the Borg? The space platform of the Delta Quadrant, or the fact that Iconian and stargates exist in the Alpha Quadrant, and if Iconian tech can take you anywhere in the galaxy/universe, it would mean that multiple other nodes/hubs exist elsewhere. The Hirogen communications network, used only a couple of times, despite being the only link to the Alpha Quadrant for a long time. Hirogens being ruthless and relentless hunters, yet Voyager always a way to get past them with little or no problem. The fact that slipstream technology existed flawlessly on an alien vessel, but somehow was short-range and flawed on a Federation ship which was on a comparable technological scale, or the fact that the race that invented slipstream was assimilated, but Borg vessels have no slipstream capability, even after assimilating a vessel with a working drive. Shuttles dropping likes flies across the episodes, yet Voyager never runs out of shuttles to use. Voyager losing key components or technologies due to damage, sabotage or infections (gel packs come to mind), and yet everything is fine with the ship and crew in the very next episode. The inconsistencies just goes on and on and on. For all the fun that Voyager was, consistent writing across episodes wasn't one of its strong points. I mean, in one example, the Doctor cannot go anywhere on the ship without his mobile emitter, and in another episode holographic emitters everywhere on a ship is the answer to his problem? Couldn't Voyager have the capacity to do that at the start, with some minor modifications by its engineers? :P
He shouldn't even be alive, he got stabbed in the neck by Robocop.
Twin brother separated at birth. It happens eventually with so many time incursions. (^:
The prime directive doesn't really apply to the Krenim. Sure, non-interference in general is the idea but to quote the Wikipedia article on general order 1- "The Prime Directive applies particularly to civilizations which are below a certain threshold of technological, scientific and cultural development; preventing starship crews from using their superior technology to impose their own values or ideals on them."
It applies in both non interference and internal affairs.. regardless of what a wiki says :p Its most clearly defined in several tng episodes
It's original purpose was and is to not screw around pulling ancient aliens type nonsense on non-developed civilizations. Secondly, the Krenim are hostile jerks and no Starfleet captain I've ever seen (barring Picard occasionaly) seems to care about the prime directive anyhow. Insaneway gets a pass on this one in my view
janeway has entered other species territory without permission twice in the the episodes innocence and the swarm so what happened in year of hell was not a one off
Though to be fair the fact that the ship itself the Krenim time ship as the problem itself. Also I think the time ship itself has protections equal to most time ships of the 29th century time ships.
unintended consequences.
What?
I sort of followed what you said. They would have countermeasures against time cops, gotcha
@@michaeldriggers7681 the kremmin are a good example of the law of unintended consequences.
@@paulfusko8566 that makes sense.
The Time Agents didn't get involved because Braga hadn't dreamed them up yet. It would be exceedingly weird if they _were_ involved. You can do time travel in-universe, but not with the show's real-world production history.
The time ship is what made all the temporal changes. That was quite clearly stated. The white whale the ship's captain was hunting was a way to fix the change he made, I'm nearly 100% sure it was clearly stated to have been the first one, that erased his wife from the universe. The restored empire that used temporal weapons was due to one of those attempts. It certainly isn't clear they had always used temporal tech in their weapons.
Where were the time agents, beside the obvious not made up yet, it is possible that from the future of the time agents this was all history and the end result was the correct timeline. Since time travel that established the "correct" timeline was clearly allowed why would they interfere as long as nothing was changed?
from what i understand of krenim temporal science (its shaky at best yall) the reason why the time agents never messed with the time ship was because it was messing with the history of the Delta Quadrant, a Quadrant that at the time wasn’t that critical to the galaxy as a whole.
another thing that maybe the reason why it wasn’t stopped was because of its inevitable destruction by Voyager, as Annorax’s ship was destroyed all history about it permanently changed to what we know now, the annorax of this new timeline never completed it, only made new advances in temporal technology, especially in shielding, and only had designs of it before Krenim went into further collapse for him to actually build it.
that or the Time Agents assigned to the Delta Quadrant weren’t the best agents
That final one is prolly the most accurate one. I mean... it is where Janeway brings back temporal technology for humans to be a time travel species.
I can easily imagine any beat that involves proximity to Janeway is the job they give to the Agents they don't particularly like.
Katrina Payne Probably lol, i would imagine that the agents watching over Voyagers journey and its history must have gotten either lazy, bored and were half assing everything to do it all
@@zeropianozeronetwork4107 Wasn't it someone like Pax I think his name was that was involved with Voyager and the 29th century? Considering the number of them at one point running around the same timeline who is to say it wasn't a later version of himself deleting the records and sensor reports of the incident to try and stop what happens to him in the past.
frag2k12 that could be the case but i dont think thats it, it might have showed in the temporal logs but i highly doubt they would be important considering how little effect it would have on the galaxy as a whole and that the ship was destoryed and its history permanently changed before the temporal distortions were logged
(edit: im a grammar nazi 😂)
Temporal science is INCREDIBLY shaky at the best of the times across Trek. What time travel does or doesn't do is
largely dependent on what the story of each time travel
episode needs it to do, and one can say the only consistent
thing about time travel in Trek is that it merely "resets"
the timeline, sometimes with no changes, sometimes with minor changes. We've seen multiple time travelers, each
using different temporal technologies or temporal vechiles, with vastly different motives, from different time periods and with different temperaments and/or behaviors.
I have to disagree with the history of the Delta Quadrant
being of no consequence to the Alpha Quadrant. It is, after
all, home to the Borg, a scourge to all living things in the
galaxy and beyond. We also know that some Krenim were among the Borg, so it would make sense that the Borg would have know how to shield themselves against temporal changes in the timeline or at least be aware that the Krenim had temporal science knowledge. It might also explain how the Borg were able to have an exponential tech base and an uninterrupted tech development curve for at least a third of its known 900 year history (Seven's says records from 900 years ago are incomplete), when it is largely a dysfunctional society that has none of the elements for a functional society, lacking an economy, has no diplomatic ties with anybody, no research or development facilities, no artistic or creative endeavours, no known leadership succession protocols in place.
It may be what perhaps also allowed them multiple victories on multiple fronts against previous assimilated species - it all depends on the locality of the temporal changes. While I would like to think that the temporal changes would be localized, one has to consider that the Krenim empire shrinks or expands a lot depending on the changes implemented, so the area of affect seems to be variable with
each change. Weirdly enough, none of the changes seems to completely destroy the Krenim, so one has to consider that
the Krenim time ship crew had some pretty significant temporal manipulation knowledge to allow them to, at the
very least, not manipulate time to such an extent that it
erases them in the process.
I see the Borg also as a reflection of many of the races we see in the Delta Quadrant - someone who takes what they want with force because they want/need it either because they need it to become stronger or because they don't want to become weaker, with the Borg lording mostly over weaker races that are, for the most part, no match for the Borg, the ultimate bully in the quadrant. In this, I can easily see that the Krenim unintentionally allowed/created another Delta Quadrant species' rise to power as a direct threat to all races in the quadrant, without even knowing they have done so via the timeship as the catalyst. I can't, however, place the blame all at the Krenim's feet, as we all know the time shenanigans that multiple groups and organizations have littered across all time, but it's fun to think that all the small problems and failures stacked up to a one single massive catastrophe in incremental steps while no-one was looking or paying any attention to it, and by not knowing that a specific outcome was due to tiny manipulations, most will simply assume it's "natural history".
I also have to point out that the Alpha Quadrant has had
a rather large effect on the Delta Quadrant's history and
technological development, even when it was not their fault or intention. We have 2 Caretakers (of which one pulled in
multiple ships from the Alpha Quadrant, and those crews
and ships have gone on to have contact with multiple
peoples in as far those they have traded technology
with (boosting those local tech bases of those peoples and
species), those who were attacked/defended, encountered, saved, not saved, items taken away from certain groups or given to others, etc. by the Federation and Klingon ships. The Federation has also allowed genetic materials of Alpha Quadrant races into the hands of Delta Quadrant races (and who knows how that may be utilized in the future), created a Borg splinter group in the Delta Quadrant, an evolved Kes was unleashed, the female Caretaker hates all things Federation and Starfleet, and with the Borg transwarp hub severely crippled, the Borg will probably turn their attention to all other systems and sectors within the Delta Quadrant. One can point out that every single episode in Voyager impacted the Delta Quadrant in some small or large
way, either by helping out with old problems or by creating new problems for others.
Tuvok used the tactical station with a “tactile” interface. It’s actually not far fetched at all, my dad is blind and he has an interactive Braille display on his laptop. They have been around since the mid 90’s. Those were pretty basic, just little plastic rods that would go up or down. But I’ve seen some videos of tactile touch screens that look promising. In the future please apply your regular level of diligence and attention to detail to researching disabilities. That being said I know you run a lore channel and are less concerned with the real world. I still really like your channel and will continue subscribing.
The destruction of the Timeship allowed for the timeline where starfleet started policing time.
So which one came first: the chicken or the egg? ;)
Maybe the reason the time agents weren't involved, to try and use this during the temporal cold war, was because if they could get it, so could others, so they hid all knowledge of it existing in the first place, to prevent any faction in the TCW from gaining the technology.
I wish the whole series was like this, damaged ship, stressed crew... would have been amazing and watch worthy
Agreed. When Voyager arrived back at Earth it should have looked how it did before the reset in Year of hell
It would be watch worthy enough that they pretty much sold the series with a similar idea.
It woukd have been brilliant to have the doctor getting pissed off cause his sick bay is being turned into crew quaters as crew quarters is put over to food production.
Doctor :I'm.a doctor... not a...
Paris: take this crate won't you doc?
Doctor: I'm not a bell hop!
Agreed, I remember they tracked how much fuel they had for all of one season before it became TNG in the Delta Quadrant. There should've been a board where they tracked how much damage and resources the ship had left and writers would change the totals as the episodes were written.
Um so y'all heard of Battlestar Galactica?
The Battle of sector 001 occurs in 2373 so the Crew of Voyager wouldn't know about it anyway. Its understandable that Seven would have knowledge of the events of the battle and the Borg being around at the flight of the Phoenix.
Exactly. The Borg share info, with one another. So voyager wasn't aware of any of it. I like first contact.
A problem with that theory: the Borg needed to build a beacon over the Enterprise-E's deflector to send a message requesting reinforcements to that time's Borg located in the Delta Quadrant. The beacon was never completed so the message could not have been sent. I very much doubt the Queen's sphere had the capability to send data back over an entire quadrant back to Borg HQ; when it is obviously a much weaker vessel in every way compared to the Cube. The only way that anyone knew the Borg tried to inference with the Phoenix was before the Queen detonated the Borg Cube during the Battle of Sector 001. That would be the only time that the Borg could have known about their involvement in that specific event, because the Queen herself would have sent that command via the Collective.
This two-parter highlighted both the great potential and failure of Voyager, the former in that for the first time did an acutal story where over time damage and injuries piled up, with supplies running low. The latter in that after such a great and epic story, they hit the reset button and none of it ever mattered.
That is what I hate about time travel stories. The end literally becomes the beginning, but minus the story. ;)
I'm going to assume replicators are down but would have been intresting if they replicated a visor for Tuvok.
VXGAMING The visor requires a connection to the brain (as seen by the metal nodes on Geordis head), so it’d require brain surgery to install, and Voyager just wasn’t equipped for that at the time.
That and the replicators were likely working double time to repair parts required for life support system.
I mean... they did manage to jerry rig the ship to function while being literal swiss cheese. That has GOT to take up resources to set up.
@@eugenideddis But didn't Geordi's later implants/contact lenses eliminate the need for the visor altogether? ;)
I hate Voyager, but if they had made year of hell a season long arc like it was originally supposed to be, I would have forgiven it of all its flaws, and it would be high up there on my favorite show list, Year of Hell is my second favorite arc in all of Star Trek, next to the Xindi arc, and hands down my favorite 2 parter of any tv show I have ever seen.
i agree. year of hell is like Voyager but if it was the Equinox.
PollAll
Yeah of Hell is what the entire show should’ve been.
Matthew I couldn’t agree more...
Captain Forman’s only vice was wanting every last individual in his empire restored (also fine dining and souvenirs).
Staring That 70’s Time Lord!
staRRing - staring is done with the eyes
Tuvok is the only really deranged One on Board. The others are ALL just Mentally Unstable...
Well, except Naomi Wildman - her Intellegence was weirdly varying for some reason, going up and down, but i still liked her.
I disagree that the Borg interference in First Contact was classified by Starfleet. Seven was disconnected from the Borg after the Battle of Sector 001 (around 2374 I think) and so would know of that battle and the time travel plan, perhaps more if the signal from the Borg found in the Arctic got through. Voyager was lost in 2371, 2 years before Sector 001, so it’s no surprise that Kim and Torres knew nothing about it.
Yeh those events might have been classified, but it’s not the reason for them not knowing about it here.
Classified by Star Fleet or redacted by Section 31?
Matthew Mccoll not sure what you mean. Yes she was a kid when she was assimilated and spent time in a maturation chamber, but she would still have had full access to the Borg knowledge at least when she became an adult drone. She would have left the Collective after FC and would have know about what went on, even if no one on Voyager did.
This was a good episode.
This has always been one of my favorite Voyager episodes, it should have been a few episodes longer but I like how the crew have to struggle without most of their technology just to get by . 😎✴
The Prime Directive stop Starfleet from interacting with non warp capable species.
That's only part of it, the prime directive also says that Starfleet has to respect the laws of any culture they happen across. At least going by the TNG interpretation.
It's also utilized in a non-interference system with what is considered to be internal affairs of other powers, as seen in the 2-parter TNG episode 'Redemption'. This Voyager example surely falls into that category.
@@AgentExeider They barely have, I always look at the directive as more of a guideline and not much more for primitive people.
Myeah, even Spock finds that directive stupide, so...
@@AgentExeider At least that point of the Directive makes the Directive Nonsense.
It is the best voyager episodes☝️
The dinosaur one was good too
Completely agree with you
bradwolf07 🙏thank you
Two problems with this storyline bugged me:
1. They hit the "reset" switch at the end.
2. It should have been a multi-episode arc, not just a two-parter.
Depending on which interview you watch itwas supposed to be at least a 4 parter if not last the whole season. Also depending on which said interview you watch some combination of Rick Berman and Paramount interfered with that
@@wcoleman99 I could have lived with the two-parter if they hadn't done the reset at the end. It's a long time problem with trek that they're unwilling to follow up on their own stories.
It's odd that DS9 and Discovery (and Enterprise's 3rd season) which have long story arcs all got a lot of hate on their release for this same reason though.
@@maisiesummers42 well that was the main problem I had with voyager overall was the hard reset on anything that mattered
Maisie Summers if you include the keys reverse life episode, and the keys returning to cause havoc “freeing her younger self”... it is a 4 part story...
Braga wanted it as a season arc, Berman reduced it to what we have now with reset button, on the grounds a season long arc would have been too interesting.
I don't think the time agents were needed, as the "flow" of events resulted in the correction of the time line. This might suggest as self fulfilling temporal event.
Also any event that wasn't influenced by an entity after the establishment of the the temporal agents would be considered established history and therefore the temporal agents aren't needed as it would influence the established timeline, the very reason the agency was established. It would be self defeating.
Space is so vast, maybe it has a range.
@@samdog8087 possibly. It's also possible that the krenim time ship weapon only affects local areas and not Galaxy wide.
@@apophis40123 Didnt I just say that ? Lol
@@samdog8087 I misread that as the temporal agents having a range lol my bad.
Temporal Agents would not have known of the Krenim. As explained in one of the novels, Space averages-out changes on various timelines, and since Voyager was in an entirely different quadrant the Temporal Agency would never have noticed time-changes that had no effects on the alpha quadrant by the time they got to their space.
It would have been nice to see this storyline flushed out and spread across an entire season.
That was the original plan.
well no I thing the time cops stayed out of it because all of time was restored by voyager so no need to change anything as it all fixed itself
Thats what I was thinking too. They only seem to step in when the timeline doesnt correct itself like it did in this episode.
Wee note....the Krenim called Voyager component 49-Beta. So, what about component 49-Alpha ? Could that mean that the USS Equinox was around for these event ?
Considering that multiple vessels was taken from the Alpha Quadrant by the Caretaker, and that both a Klingon vessel and the Equinox was taken before Voyager, the naming convention seems fishy? :P
I stress again that after seeing Relativity that the "Time Agents" do not feel canon... or are not an official part of the federation.
Equally I can only assume that Relativity didn't intervene because they saw time would "fix itself" or it was outside of w/e parameter they deemed worth meddling with. Keep in mind they also did nothing when Janeway traveled back in time for End Game. The only time they intervened was when a part of their crew the captain did several jumps to try and destroy voyager, twice even.
So. Who knows.
I think there were changes, the absence of Kes and the presence of Janeway during "Year Of Hell".
If I remember correctly, the Chakotay would attack the Krenim torpedo launchers directly, while Janeway would try to upgrade shields. One did not effect what the Time Ship was supposed to do, while the other one did
Ummm Voyager was launched a year or two before the Battle of Sector 001 took place so how could the crew know about that?
They don't even know about the Dominion yet and that was a BIG thing going on in the Alpha Quadrant so that solves that issue.
So why would you say Starfleet hid the information? How can they since ALL OF STARFLEET was involved with the battle.
If we are talking the time travel aspect only then yes that part would be quiet do to that being VERY sensitive information but either way Voyager would not be privileged to that information even if they were home.
And Who thought that the Sovereign class was not Cannon? That is beyond silly and just weird.
The conspiracy is more about the Borg's interaction with humans when Humans first gain Warp Flight technology. As oppose to the Battle of Sector 001.
As Riker was aboard the first Warp Flight of humanity after Janeway was in the Delta Quadrant... and the Prime Temporal directive would have had Riker's passenger status on that ship be knowledge that wasn't shared... as it would have far reaching consequences after Riker was born.
Also... English sucks when talking about atypical temporal movements.
@@NimhLabs Or the fact that a future crew had to fix the launch facility after an attack to allow the Phoenix to launch on time. Or the fact that the Phoenix was attacked by same future ship. Guess you will never hear that in the Federation's official Phoenix account? Considering what we saw in First Contact, I'm asking myself if the inventor of the warp drive was ACTUALLY the inventor of anything, and not just some crazy scavenger that had the right mix of tools and components lying around when time travellers visited him? ;)
@@NimhLabs Also, I still maintain that Temporal Mechanics was an attempt by sadistic instructors at Starfleet Academy to punish know-it-all students who make them look bad with a subject that is nigh impossible to understand when you have storylines that have shifting parameters for anything to do with time. But that's only my honest opinion? :P
Shane you are the most well versed trekkie on the web! Dont really like your other content, but you found really something here
Doesn't the Prime Directive only apply to pre warp civilizations, though?
I think it is that and internal affairs.
Unless it's section 31.
Going by TNG yes but no depending on which episode you go by.
I honestly think they could have made an entire season out of these two episodes.
Is year of hell considered one of the best story arcs in voyager? When I recently watched all of voyager I was actually serverely let down with it especially after the massive build up it got in the episode where kes was experiencing life backwards
For Janeway's character, yes it was the best story arc for her as a character in Voyager. She was deconstructed and became unhinge beyond even her norms.
If you ever get a chance to read the novels, the novel "Pocket full of Lies" covers this story arc and Krenim are featured as being a faction in the Temporal Cold War in the future in the Department of Temporal Investigation novels.
I know Post Voyager, nothing is Canon, but I loved the author's idea of a "major invasion by the Borg", Janeway's Endgame made the Borg re-evaluate Federation, so they sent an armada against Alpha Quadrant of several thousand cubes, Star Trek Destiny book series is epic.
It's generally regarded as a highlight of the series, yes. There certainly are detractors and many people who praise the two-parter still criticize its use of the reset button, but the general consensus is very positive.
Species 8472 is better, I think
@@BryanTerran Wow, I'm surprised to hear that, maybe it you were there at the time it felt a lot more grandiose and "WOW" but when just watched as part of a string of episodes it fails to reach such highs, but yeah the reset thing was the absolute worse though (among other little things)
I'm at work, and so havnt sat down to watch this. But I've been looking forward to a "year of hell" video for a year myself. Definately looking forward to this one
@Lore, I do think the novels explain this better than the shows. In the shows, it makes no sense why the Krenim are able to do this with the amount of oversight Starfleet Temporal agents have. Also, Anorax's little sojourn of eradication is so unbelievably destructive that even 29th Century Wells-class ship with similar technology (I assume the Federation eventually acquired or invented Annorax's technology eventually too).
In DTI novel series: "Watching the Clock" we learn the Krenim are a faction, maybe even founding member race as 31st Century Temporal Agent Jena Noi noted them as among the early adopters of Temporal Shielding technology invented and shared by Federation/Klingon Scientists (surprise plot twist, the Klingons are useful) as terms for the Temporal Accords. This would establish that in one set of timelines, the Krenim eventually recognized that they cannot use their temporal technology to lord over other powers and also feared a Federation with equivalent power as to accept the Temporal shields.
In post Voyager series, the novel "Pocket Full of Lies", we started seeing elements of what DTI series hinted at with Krenim changing their ideals slightly. They still alter history on "small Scale", but they are steering clear of Federation ships and attempt to use their fearsome temporal technology only as a method of foreign policy control. Too bad for them, they're views on time travel and technology is so mechanical, they couldn't acknowledge that their technology can be made ineffective by others or even "highly evolved beings", (spoiler: an old friend/enemy/annoying god is in this novel).
Basically, the novels help retcon what in the shows is impossible to understand.
I would argue that similar technologies might be developed, but others might not. The Krenim timeship had a weapon that could erase a ship from history, but we don't see future Temporal timeships with such a weapon. All encounters with future timeships either resorted to conventional sabotage during the timeline (bomb onboard Voyager during it's construction phase), or powerful conventional weaponry (in the time travel where Voyager is sent back to contemporary Earth and it accidently ends up being responsible for the introduction of future tech as contemporary invention on Earth). Sisko, Kirk and Picard also had time adventures, as did Archer (that mysterious guy giving orders in Enterprise was rumoured to be Archer trying to manipulate events from the future) and future Admiral Janeway. I would say that all captains either interfered or directly affected the original timeline in some way or another. Temporal pollution is a reality? :P
@@sigmacademy Actually the bomb is temporal technology based. Also in the Episode where Voyager is shattered in several different timelines, it is hinted at though not confirmed in canon that this was not a natural phenomenon. In the Novel, "Pocket full of lies", it is revealed that the Krenim engineered this temporal incursion by accident as their technology was countered by "other" forces *(Another aspect of the Krenim in novel form I like, they're strictly scientific atheists, they don't believe in "God-like" beings and have a strict belief in perceptive knowledge. When a Star Trek higher being does act, they can't calculate it as they don't believe in "random causality".)
Right from the beginning, you missed something. The Krenem time ship didn't change history all over the galaxy. It only changed history for those who had contact with with those whose histories were changed.
just a moment ago I had a theory (not sure how to adequately put this), What if Admiral Janeway from the 'Endgame' episode was not actually the same Captain Janeway who she mistakenly thought was her 'past' version of herself that she meets in that episode but rather she came from an alternate time-split created by one of the time shifts from the 'Year in Hell' episode and her actual past self future was somewhat different and certainly more tragic than the other Janeway's (or something along those lines), incidentally what you said about character levels was pretty informative (also indirectly explains how Mary & Gary Sues usually go wrong) I need to keep this in mind about my Sailor Moon fan-fic, my OC Yuzuki (a shy but friendly vampire superhero) is a supposed to be a tragic character who some might see as a Mary Sue at first glance (and when it comes to video games she is a bit, but that's a just a running gag tuned plot point, and she gets a little teased by this by Sailor Venus ) ultimately her abilities and nature are both her greatest strengths and her greatest weakness, which turns inwards on herself when she starts to uncover the dark secret about herself...
I doubt that something like that could work in the original storyline - Admiral Janeway was already a different person than her old post-Year in Hell version, because Year in Hell was reset so it never happened (which doesn't explain how Kes had a pre-vision of it, but reasons, I guess), but also because in the future Janeway's history many crewmembers had died in their journey back to the Alpha Quadrant, which of course didn't happen in the new timeline, because they used Borg tech to get back to the Alpha Quadrant much quicker and with future tech as well. What you could probably do is let Janeway order the crew to abandon the ship, never reach the Alpha Quadrant and live out her life on a colony in the Delta Quadrant, die valiantly fighting her enemies (she made a string of them in the Delta Quadrant) or try to make her fight a guerrilla war with the Krenim or wait until the Federation develops technology to visit the Delta Quadrant and hop onboard on a ride back to the Alpha Quadrant onboard a Federation starship.
I think it was Baer who lamented that Year of Hell was two episodes that should have been 2 seasons. Brilliant premise, well written, so much more story there that could be explored and isn’t.
This was really a glimpse at the background conflict over the heart of that show. It’s obvious that the Voyager people who then made BSG learned a lot about how important it is to have consequences to what happens in your universe.
@10:00 - I agree with you. That said, I feel like a separate video might be interested based on the episode Before and After, which presents an alternate version of this era with Kes. Lore-wise, the idea that things could still run parallel with Seven of Nine absent and Kes present is interesting (somehow, they must still have found a way to skip Borg space around the time of 'The Gift'), but also the idea that 7 of 9's presence vs. Kes' leads to events being undone, whereas without 7, these events would have been permanent (but not led to Voyager's destruction).
It could actually be down to the development of these temporal shields, actually; this is what gives the time ship a reason to hunt down Voyager in earnest; without them, owing to 7's contribution, Voyager would've apparently made it through intact and eventually rebuilt the ship.
So I disabled ad blocker just out of curiosity...3 ad breaks so far at 7:42. How does anyone tolerate this?
Isn't the prime directive for cultures that are pre warp
So first contact would be different
william flynn ... yes and no... the fact that they’re warp capable and the fact that they’re in the Delta Quadrant gives some Janeway some leeway
If the TNG movies are canon and running in tandem with the TV series there is a WAY bigger issue...Generations happened BEFORE the Dominion War...so why in the hell wouldn't Section 31 build a Soran weapon and use it on Caradssia? The Enterprise got detailed scans of Soran's weapon, knew what kind of fuel it used, how fast it was, etc so they should be able to use that to build another one. And even if you say "they don't have enough details" Section 31 would get the reports and know EXACTLY where AND when the weapon was constructed and since it was on a Federation Outpost it would be trivial with their connections to send someone back in time (hell Kirk did it with a busted up old Warbird, you can't tell me Section 31 doesn't have better ships than that) with the right clearance to be on that outpost where they could have months to take readings to get enough data to build a Soran weapon.
This is why I had a problem with Generations, once you introduce a weapon capable of winning wars with a single shot and have a universe populated with races that would have no issues using it? You have to wonder why someone wouldn't just use it. This is especially an issue with the Federation as it was established that Section 31 was just as nasty as the Romulans and had no problem with ideas like genocide so finding out there is a weapon which can cause stars to explode with a single shot? Would be right at the top of their "gotta get us one of those" list.
Section 31 likes to do it's stuff subtle and quiet,not loud and explosive. How else do they keep their existence a secret?
@@edgardox.feliciano3127 And we did see an attempt to use Soran's weapon on the star of the Bajor System, by the Dominion.
@@edgardox.feliciano3127 But the Federation was LOSING THE WAR and the entire purpose of Section 31 to quote Sloane was "We deal with threats to the Federation that jeopardize its very survival. If you knew how many lives we've saved, I think you'd agree that the ends do justify the means."
So with the Federation losing Betazed and being pushed across the Alpha Quadrant? That would seem like the perfect reason to use a Soran weapon. And remember they don't give a shit about genocide, as long as it doesn't trace back to THEM and with the Dominion war there is oh so many "unsavory" actors you could pin the blame on, the Breen, The Romulans, hell you could even say they did it to themselves. In a bit of poetic justice they tried to create a superweapon and blew themselves up in the process...oh so many ways they could do it that wouldn't trace back to Section 31 while letting them win the war.
Again this is the problem with having a war winning weapon added to canon when you have a ton of races that would use it as you have to wonder why the Soran weapon didn't become their own version of the Atomic bomb with every race scrambling to get their hands on it.
@@TheHangarHobbit how about why don't they use transporters to transport the crew of the enemy ship to space to suffocate? As for the soran weapon, the TV show crew either forgot about it, or the weapon was SO TOP secret, that even section 31 didn't know about it
@@edgardox.feliciano3127 The transporters has built in safety features to keep you from doing that to your own crew (see TOS where they didn't have that and one episode actually beamed some red shirts into space) so I assume the same features would also keep you from using it on an enemy. Plus that brings up the whole "can you transport through shields" debate and even the creators of the damn shows can't make their minds up on THAT one so you could argue that all damn day and never get a straight answer.
But with the Soran weapon we are talking about mission reports from the flagship of the fleet, you can't tell me Section 31 with so many in high ranking positions don't get to see the action reports from the flagship. And I'm sure a report that says "someone has built a weapon that can kill entire star systems in a single shot" would rush through the halls of Starfleet as there would be a LOT of questions you would want answered ASAP, such as "Did this person show anyone else how to build it?" "How hard was it to build?" "What was it made of?" "Who has access to the materials to build one?" "How can we defend against a bad actor with one of these weapons?" etc etc.
And according to another poster in one of the DS9 episodes the Dominion DID try to deploy a Soran weapon against the Bajorian Star, which means they must have stolen it from the Federation which again begs the question if Section 31 has access to the Soran weapon why did they not deploy it, especially when the enemy is trying to deploy one of their own?
this is the problem with adding a superweapon as canon, every time your heroes backs are against the wall you have to say "dumbshits just use the superweapon". Its the same reason Last Jedi fucks up Star Wars as if hyperspace can be used as a weapon then you should be able to wipe out a fleet of Star Destroyers in minutes with any old crap you have lying around by strapping big ass hyperspace engines on them and having robots kamikaze them into the Destroyers. So while the Soran weapon wouldn't work against EVERY threat to the Federation (for example it wouldn't do shit against the Borg who have no home world to blow up) with the Dominion their alpha quadrant attacks were all launched from Cardassia, the bulk of their fleet was in Cardassia, the founder was on Cardassia, if Cardassia goes boom? The war is over. And Generations happened nearly 2 years before "In The Pale Moonlight" which gives the Federation more than enough time to develop the Soran weapon and a way to deploy it.
The crew of Voyager not knowing about the Battle of Sector 001 does have a lore basis. In the Dominion War book Behind Enemy Lines, Picard reflects on traveling back to 2063, and how all participants were under strict orders not to discuss the incident. So, Seven was due for a reprimand that was preempted by temporal reset which was regarding a Borg attack which was preempted by temporal intervention, which is classified, begging the question of how you reprimand someone about something that’s top secret and where the violation took place in a timeline that didn’t actually take place...
...wow, no wonder Janeway’s always complaining about headaches on episodes with time travel.
Time agents didn't need to intervene. Janeway solved this.
That being said, the xindi arc would have been a lot better had they made the Krenim arc for an entire season and developed the time agents then and used future Krenim as one of the time factions.
Krenim might not even be a future time faction? We've seen plenty of time travellers in Trek series, and each of them comes from different time periods, controlled by different overseers (or being sole operators), so I would say that the future time factions might not appear to be the conventional understanding of what they are, but more multiple interests consolidated around singular pursuits, like temporal archaeology, or temporal terrorism, temporal politics or illegal temporal tech advancement, etc. Several races might wish to pursue the same agenda, with the same approach, while freelancers/proxies and operators might exist to "facilitate" certain actions.
Great episode. We got to see a big part of Voyager's rock collection. The explodium hull plating was also fun.
Still don't understand why they store their rock collection in consoles next to the stores of nitroglycerin. So many dead crew members.
Perhaps in a timeline where the Krenim timeship exists, the Federation time police never get formed?
As you say in the video, the ship is a massively powerful, near omniscient pice of technology that could easily usurp Federation efforts if it wanted to
Or perhaps the Time Agents saw that the Krenim were about to pick a fight with Janeway and were all, "oh bitch you didn't... oooh, get the popcorn their ass is about to get whoooped hard!"
It would be fun if the Federation time agency was actually formed using a combination of Alpha, Beta, Delta and Gamma Quadrant temporal technologies (including Krenim). STD is going to the far future, so perhaps we will receive some Temporal Agency and time faction information then. :)
@@NimhLabs I doubt it (even it sounded bad-ass!!!). Wasn't there a time-travel episode in Voyager where a temporal agent tells someone from Voyager that Voyager was one of their worst headaches due to its large amounts of times they had changed time and how it fitted into later events in the timeline?
@@sigmacademy I was using that same episode as proof of my statements... and a few other episodes where history books about Voyager have the same effect as books of Eldritch Horrors do in Lovecraftian Fiction.
I mean, Janeway eats 1d6 investigators per turn and what not.
@@NimhLabs Always wondered why there's a shortage of "investigators" in the Lovecraftian Fiction - I mean, Miskatonic professors can battle eldritch beings no probs, but normal people can go "crazy" from just looking at these beings? (are Miskatonic professors eldritch beings themselves?) :P On a related note, isn't Voyager history books in "future" episodes based on alternate timelines? (wiped out when Voyager does something differently - like the episode where Voyager crashes on an ice planet, for example - or where the Doctor gets activated by an alien race several hundred years after an alien encounter where Voyager is a museum and the aliens present a revisionist history of what had happened).
Well, it's simple why the Time Feds didn't do anything against Annorax and the krenim timeship. The Temporal Queen allowed it. None question Janeway's wisdom.
Well, they don't OPENLY question Janeway's wisdom.
They know better.
@@NimhLabs Didn't Seven OPENLY argue with Janeway multiple times in front of the crew? ;)
Didn't the Krenim timeship exist outside of space-time? That would mean that they would be untraceable, wouldn't it? They also had chronoton-based weapons, so any assault against it would have failed, not to mention the ability to reset encounter scenarios multiple times. I wouldn't be very surprised that the Caretaker Array and its inability to find a medical treatment was due to multiple temporal "resets" by the Krenim timeship. Would kinda make sense, in an extended kind of way. The Krenim timeship, after all, had been at it for quite some time. It could also explain why the Borg had time-travel technology during First Contact, but not at any other time during previous contacts.
@@sigmacademy The Borg didn't have proper time travel... they just accidentally stumbled into figuring out time travel.
That being said, The Borg are not allowed to have time travel technology as they failed the trail put on them.
Ik it’s not strictly canon but, krenim technology is used in the temporal Cold War in Star Trek Online, as it’s discovered that Noye (a Krenim science officer) is in fact the Envoy that we see in Star Trek: Enterprise, he uses a replica of the Krenim timeship to travel through time and unite the Krenim resistance, Na’Kuhl, Terran Empire, Vorgon and Sphere builders in an effort to erase the Federation from history, ultimately concluding in the Battle of Procyon V with the alliance with the help of 26th and 31st century allies destroy the Spheres there and recapture the Krenim timeship with noye aboard (fun side note, although not shown in the game or episode, is often recounted that the Xindi also participated on the side of the federation but were decimated by the Terran empire ships in the Andoria system prior to arriving to Procyon)
What if temporal agents knew what is going to happen so they just sat back and ate popcorn 🍿 😊
‘’Insaneway” hilarious
I remember this being a let-down when I saw it, because they'd been building up to it for some time beforehand but it turned out to be just another episode of Gilligan's Island In Space, with everything back the way it started at the end.
A very nice, evenhanded look at Janeway. Despite it all, I do like the character in the first half of Voyager; before her obsession outweighs her wisdom and principles. But I think you did a nice job of breaking down the character's virtues and problems.
I love the term “Insaneway”! Classic! Haha
I'm inclined to believe that the time agents only get involved in alterations to time that impact their own existence. While it may seem like the Krenim warship is a threat, keep in mind that from our perspective the past is fixed in time. The only risk to the past is from a time traveler. Therefore, the reset button was effectively predetermined. If they got involved it would threaten their own existence.
That being said, an alternative faction SHOULD have become involved.
Perhaps the Krenim's actions were what started the Temporal Cold War?
Seven of Nine knowing about the Phoenix doesn't necessarily mean she learned about it because she was a Borg, or that First Contact - & therefore the Enterprise-E - is strictly canon. Don't forget, her parents were also assimilated along with her. Captain Picard was also assimilated at one point. And, I cannot conceive of a universe where the Borg wouldn't have assimilated a few (thousand) other Federation ships & crew, even if they couldn't swallow the whole even by going back in time. Since whenever the Borg assimilate people they gain their knowledge & every ship they take they access the computer systems of, the Borg being present for First Contact doesn't HAVE to be the ONLY way Seven - or the Borg, for that matter - know about it.
And for that matter, her parents were researchers & scientists, & brought their daughter along while researching the Borg. (A move that definitely knocks them out of contention for "Best Parents of the Year," even in a fictional future universe.) For all we know, they could've been home-schooling the child & made the name of the first-ever human-built warp-capable ship a part of the curriculum. So, she could've memorized it as a child, before the Borg were ever brought into the equation.
(And that brings up a timeline/continuity error of major proportions. If Q had to introduce the TNG crew to the Borg initially, how in the Hell did Seven's parents already know about them some 20 or more years prior to her appearance on Voyager? And for that matter, how did her parents get to the Delta Quadrant, where the homing beacon could guide Seven to its location, to study the Borg in the first place? Did they come up with a Trans-Warp drive of their own, or figure out a way to both hide their ship from the Borg's sensors AND manage to ride on the subspace wake of a Borg ship through the Trans-Warp field it was generating? And if they did the latter, how did they deal with the temporal stresses? It's all very, very confusing.)
Well, to answer some of your questions, I believe the Hansens developed a bio-cloak, despite the Borg Queen knowing all about them, which begs the question whether the Hansens were studying the Borg, or whether the Borg was studying the Hansons. Also, Guinan was part of the El-Aurian race, which was destroyed by the Borg in Kirk's time, so the Federation would have heard of them, just not be familiar with them, since they had not encountered them in first contact yet (which kinda begs the question where the homeworld and colonies of the El-Aurians were (in the Delta Quadrant or somewhere in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant). As for traveling with the Borg, one can either speculate that it was near enough to the Cube to be carried along or it had someway of accessing the transwarp conduit (like the Enterprise did), but then again, it wouldn't explain how a relatively weak civilian research vessel could withstand the speed stresses of a transwarp conduit, but then again, Voyager or the Enterprise had zero issues, so "reasons" I guess? I can also accept First Contact's ships as canon because we see several of them in other Trek series like DS9 and Voyager (Akiras, Defiants, Steamrunner). So just because I don't see an Sovereign class in there, doesn't really mean anything story wise - there could be many reasons why they would be missing from the screen - secret missions, patrol duties, research duties, intelligence gathering, etc.
Also, by powering down we've seen a shuttle coming up real close and personal to a Borg cube in a TNG episode. As for Best Parents of the Year award, I don't think having any kids on Voyager is a good idea, considering you are on a Federation starship with a warp core that is disabled or crippled by a mere sneeze? :P
Year of Hell was supposed to be an entire season arc... That would have been amazing to see.
Very nice breakdown of an excellent 2-parter. After watching this video, you made me want to hop onto STO and play the Temporal War arc with one of my characters. And you could say that this episode would have later reprecussions of the Temporal Cold War, if you count STO in the semi-canon to canon range. However, I will not reveal episodes from two story arcs in STO that have been influenced by this 2-parter from Voyager.
no need for the time cops to act: they know that voyager reverses everything. no need to go out there.
Of course they had to act and did act!
They needed to make popcorn for when somebody is dumb enough to pick a fight with Janeway.
The time agents were to busy 'working' on Risa to help.
13:04 "Voyager *completely destroyed and nearly inoperable*..." LOL. Yes, I suppose it would be nearly inoperable if completely destroyed.
That TimeShip looks like Babylon5
I just started this episode for the first time. I'll have to come back when it's done.
The Krenim temporal weapon is very similar to the D-Mat gun used by the Doctor to defeat the Sontarans in the classic Dr. Who episode "Invasion of Time ".
Exactly, exactly. When I saw these episodes I loved it and I figured out that the Krenim time ship was part of the problem. You see they thought that by them being outside of the "timestream" they wouldn't be a part of the time and any changes they made. The captain of the Krenim ship was wrong and out of his league in dealing with time.
There are two theories for time travel, the butterfly effect aka a stream of time that goes from A to Z etc. etc., and the multiverse theory where you truly don't go into time or make changes in time but really go into another universe where changes from the minute to the most extreme exist. We will go with the timestream aka butterfly effect. The Krenim time ship even existing made changes and even though they had shields that protected them from the time wave of the changes, their actions still made them part of the time stream. That is why it seemed that they where close but not close enough. As if the universe was making a joke of their issue.
Hell maybe the universe didn't like the idea that this machine was changing time like they changed their underwear and somewhere in the universe or the nature of the universe was making it where they would never get what they wanted. Also as the vid said, we don't know how long they have been doing this but it seems to hint at centuries, centuries. Can you imagine them changing the fabric of the universe and time 3 to 6 times a month, month in month out year in year out for over a century?
The reason why the time cops or agents from the future federation didn't do nothing is because they didn't know. What I mean is that they have been changing time so much that time waves must rush over all away over the galaxy and even into earth (which I don't believe because if they are changing time like that it there would be waves of time going out for infinity into the universe that is why I believe the multiverse theory) where it changes even the time agents.
Also I think it would have been good for them to have either the start of that season where that episode of the Krenim was happening or the season before that showing small and subtle changes that they are noticing but can't figure out and after a few years they see what is causing it.
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One of the funniest things I feel about this episode is whenever the krenim timeship fires on that one planet and basically reduces the krenim imperium back to the Stone age essentially and causes all their ships to go from battleships to little tiny freighters the thing is at this point in the show Voyager has already put up their temporal shielding. here's the thing though if Voyager had not put up their temporal shielding whenever the shockwave that reduced the krenim timeship reduce their imperium back to nothing Voyager would have undone almost all the damage that they had stashed sustained because all of the ships that had been attacking them would have been reduced back ages in their technology and weaponry so by implementing the temporal shielding and then having it in place whenever the krenim imperium timeship makes that huge mistake and reduces our civilization back to the Stone age it's screws Voyager very hard and they could have undone almost all the damage that they had taken but of course there was no way that probably anybody could have known that and that's what caused the anomaly that led to the point 1% failure that homeboy was so mad about
except the whole reason the krenim got reduced back to a low tier power running freighters instead of battleships was because of voyagers shields disrupting the time wave. So if they didn't have their shields up either nothing would've happened or they could've just been erased as they got destroyed by the first ship they encountered.
Great analysis, as always.
There's a discussed theory that's popped up on the Internet over the past couple of years that the temporal agents do not interfere with events in the 23rd or 24th century due to the danger of the Borg becoming the dominant species in the Galaxy. This is why we never see them appear in Kirk's day or in time travel episodes involving Picard and his crew nor Voyager as well.
Originally they were going to mention that kes fore saw this species in an episode in the previous season,when she was traveling back in time.However for some reason,they dropped that,i guess because Jennifer lien had left the show,but they didn’t even mention it. Infact at the end of that episode Kes says she is going to write down everything had she had seen in the future.
@Lore Reloaded - The recent Voyager novel series did address why the Time Agents didn't deal with the Krenim, and even connect the Krenim to the events of VOY: Shattered. Beta canon, of course. But at least someone has tried to address it.
Time Travel, in a series not specifically set up for, [is] happens when you are out of ideas.
Voyager holds the record for the most violations of every directive no wonder Bratton was driven mad having to clean mess after mess
The time agents didn’t deal with it because they knew that Voyager would handle it.
Having inconsistencies would be mostly unnoticed, as the crew would be unable to perceive them, unless a crew member or named device is explicitly killed, crippled, or destroyed, then explicitly referenced intact later. Until Voyager implemented their temporal shields, they could not perceive changes in the timeline.
I always figured there were buoys or something, to inform ships of boundaries.
It would certainly make sense if there were some kind of markers. It's in the interest of powers to keep their borders defined and easily accessible public informations. Buoys that transmit data to any ships within reach where their borders lie wouldn't be out of the question.
Another possibility for Seven's mapping system is that it's approximating based on ship movements with the assumption that a vast majority of a nation's ships would reside within its borders, so whatever power has a majority of ships in thay sector probably controls the sector.
@@BryanTerran It may also be a system that pulls in all transmissions from a space-faring race, and uses that information to determine where their boundaries are, number of ships & planets, etc. Like SIGINT, but for starships lost in the Delta Quad.
I do agree that Seven probably did a data dump of Borg intel into the system as well, as a compare/contrast sort of database against info from the sensors.
I would say the missile was disabled/ damaged, it basically malfunctions and ejected the worst of it where it came from in a smaller series of explosions rather than one big one.
The possibility also occurs to me that the torpedoes could be multi-stage devices perhaps even one that requires textbook activation of the primary stage in order to trigger the far more powerful secondary stage. Think analogous to how an implosion-type nuclear device in the sense that to generate the pressure necessary to compress the secondary U-235 stage to critical mass all the high explosive shell of the primary stage must be triggered by multiple detonators simultaneously. If anything like the same massive disparity in yield of the primary and secondary stage a misfire would very much be the difference between maybe putting a few meter hole in the hull vs reducing the ship to a cloud of centimeter sized fragments.
@@seraphina985 Boom! Exactly. Also, fantastic example.
There have been cases of troops picking up an IED and the device would explode, but the chain reaction didn't quite work correctly. In one particular case, it knocked out two soldiers from the blast, bit the only injury sustained was a slightly burned finger from the person holding it. They got incredibly lucky.
We all know the reason why janeway was able to get passed the time agents was because she was secretly a changeling
oh shit that tracks
Dunno, I assumed it was because they knew all about her and what she was capable of and thought better of pissing her off lol
@@highlandoutsider8148 I concur. They just knew better.
The Krenims were just a bitch who didn't know any better.
PAST, unless Janeway is a ball...
Fantastic episode if the rest of the show did a tenth of that it would have been great
In one episode they seemed to establish that the escape pods only had functioning life support for 10 days, so a lot of the people that evacuated Voyager probably died unless they just settled on a random planet.
From what I gathered when I saw this episode, it would have taken years to go around
One of the Biggest Plot Holes is the Fluid Space - they know how to go there and come back.
Any idea how many options that gives them?!
From the second they learned this, they could have never been trapped again, and even in fights, they can just leave!
They could arguably have done this even BEFORE making Peace with 8472, but without argue AFTERWARDS!!
They also didnt even tried to tell 8472 to continue hunting the Borg, which is also a HUGE Thing, aint it?
But the ability to enter and leave the Fluid Space alone is a Plot Hole.
Have you ever played Star Trek Online? It has the entire Krenim story line and includes the Kitomer Temporal Accords. It is free to play.
Year of When Janeway Ignores Other Civilization's Space.