Well memes are viruses and memes are a kind of dialect? Also I used to speak Hungarian fluently when we used to visit very often, and then we didn't anymore when my grandpa died. I went back a few years ago after having been gone for over a decade (and having lost most of my ability to speak it) and it did very much feel like I was no longer "going home". I knew nothing about this game but it's interesting they made him Hungarian since it is a language isolate. Being a monolingual Hungarian speaker is already isolating but then losing it and having only, arguably more useful, second tongues is a unique experience... Which I apparently share with a skull man.
+lyadmilo Kojima, the director of Metal Gear Solid 5, does not go in-depth with Skull Face but it is mentioned that he is a Szekely, a Hungarian from Transylvania. That's the region of Hungary that Romania took over after World War I. Szekely is pronounced C.K. and is also the last name of Louis Szekely, a famous American comedian with Hungarian roots.
+TheAbsoluTurk I think (s)he means geographically, other than the hungarian minorities in the bordering countries, there are no related (romanian, german, a bunch of slavic)
Interestingly enough and perhaps not-so-coincidentally, MGSV was the first game in the series to be voiced in English before it was voiced in Japanese. I guess Kojima succumbed to the virus.
A great book (that I'm sure you used as research for this video) is Through the Language Glass: Why the World Looks Different in Other Languages. I referenced it in a video I did about how Daredevil can "see." He always explains it in terms that we can understand, but follows it up by clarifying that his descriptions are not literally how his radar sense works. There isn't the proper vocabulary available for him to tell us precisely how he sees the world, so he's forced to use inadequate analogies. There's also a little anecdote I've heard before about how English is biased towards assigning blame. Don't quote me on this because I can't remember the source. The basic idea is if you set up a scenario where someone accidentally knocks over a vase causing it to shatter, English speakers will say "They broke the vase" whereas other languages will say something that translates to "The vase broke." Again, no idea where I heard this, so it could be completely wrong. If it is true, it's kinda interesting. Language. Fascinating stuff. :)
+NerdSync Maybe something like this one: www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703467304575383131592767868. The author actually mentions the "who broke the vase" example.
This was an absolutely fascinating video. Especially since I am an anglophone Canadian who has lived in Quebec for the last few years. Transitioning to being bilingual and being a linguistic minority has changed my perceptions from what I would have thought a few years ago. Language is definitely identity and provides a lens by which you will analyze the world. And it is a virus that can be spread, often by the more vulgar parts of human nature. It's bizarre that in my context as an anglophone, even when I am a minority, I can generally rely on people having more knowledge of my language than I do of theirs off the top of my head. English is a virulent cultural identity that has subsumed the world. Learning to converse in French has also changed some of my opinions on the role of language. When I was younger, I taught myself to speak Esperanto. Esperanto is an odd language because people of certain convictions created the language and a similar group of people speak it. It's a mindset that created a language. Which is different than a language being at the root of continuation of culture. Speaking French comes with a completely different set of baggage that didn't originally make any sense to me. Whereas speaking Esperanto didn't come with this.
+Joey Broda I agree was really fascinating! I definitely understand the virulent feeling, also being an anglophone Canadian; its weird to travel to places like Europe and just expect people to understand my language. I like the idea of language being akin to different types of coding, which often reflects the cultural identity of the people who speak it. You can hear it in the variety and compounding of words some language have compared to others. Also thanks for mentioning Esperanto; just looked it up and will try to learn more about it!
Yes Esperanto, being artificial, does mean that one does not have to learn about the culture that comes with the language. However, I think Esperanto does bring a different worldview in the same way the other languages do, which is in the grammar and words that are used to describe things. When thinking in Esperanto, one thinks of wanting and being able to do things in a similar way because it's the same grammar point, just with one different word being substituted, whereas in English, being able comes under the group of 'this is how you exist' because one can BE able, BE special, BE silly, BE important, but not BE want, and while one can be wanting of, that's a very roundabout way of saying it that is used rarely and has a slightly different nuance anyway. And being able doesn't fall under the same grammatical category as wanting, either. Another thing worth mentioning is Toki Pona, another constructed language. I haven't looked into it much, but because of the limited vocabulary, one has to describe things instead of just using it's name. One example is that 'coffee' might be described as bitter dark drink or energy black drink, depending on your particular view of coffee. So while this is obviously a rather extreme example, this concept of each person's own experience changing how they describe things and view the world would be evident in all languages, simply because a vocabulary that covers every specific thing would not be reasonable.
My point about Esperanto was more that I was of a worldview and that brought me to Esperanto. Someone who isn't cosmopolitan or interested internationalism and peace probably won't be interested by Esperanto. Though you do make a good point with the downplayed rule of "to be". I hadn't considered that. I had always classified that under efficiency. Thanks for the insight.
I hate to agree with a supervillain but English Language really is a tool of domination, you don't see it because English is your native tongue, but here in Latin America you see people replacing perfectly good Spanish words and expressions with English ones. Or there was the case of the owner of the only comic book store in Costa Rica, who refused to learn Spanish, so in a way we, the Spanish speaking costumers, were forced to abandon our native language for the benefit of a US invader. Now, this is not to say I disagree with Dorothy Lee, being bilingual has certainly expanded my worldview and allowed me to connect with other people; it's that when one language overrides another one you have a problem. You can just look at your own history and what happened to Native American languages after the British came
It's just how history works. One language becomes the dominant language for use in trade across languages. In the Mediterranean area and later expanded to the middle east, northern Africa, and most of western Europe spoke Greek as the common tongue, despite the romans ruled during most of this time. It later became Latin as Christianity spread to the scandanavian/teutonic/slavic tribes and nations. Then, it was English. I know I am missing some periods here and there, but those three were the most notable.
Language is an interesting thing, because often it is so tied to the land and culture of its native country that to remove that speaker and place them in a new area will inevitably make a new culture (or language/dialect).
I'm reminded of the mass influx of Italians during the 1900's and how they formed these massive communities where you didn't always need to know English. However, over time English did start to creep into the language making it change, and the culture of these Italian -Americans started to change into their own new... Thing! Today, it's actually kinda hard to understand someone that speaks one of these Italian-American mixes as they're now so subtly different from the original. I find this doubly funny because Italian (orig) has changed so little over the years that modern day Italians can actually read old manuscripts from the 1600's! (Compared to English speakers who wouldn't even come close to reading old English like that of the original Beowulf).
+Joshua Graham Thats probably from Norwegian/Slavic influences of the day. Just as modern English steals grammar and letters from other languages, so did the old! (Beowulf in Old English) www.northvegr.org/sagas%20annd%20epics/epic%20poetry/beowulf/002.html
if you'd like to see how far sci-fi can take this idea, you should check out Snow Crash. A central part of the plot is hackers being infected by a linguistic virus that fries their brains. Plus the main charger runs around dual-wielding katanas. It's crazy, but voted one of the top 25 sci Fi books of all time.
It may have been mentioned already, but the film Ponty Pool brings up this point as the means by which a zombie apocalypse occurs through infecting people's minds through an idea transmitted via the English language. It is really impeccably done and I highly recommend it.
In response to the part at 2:45: Quiet doesn't have to not wear clothes only as a result of the parasites, it's because her lungs have been scarred to the point they can no longer function. The sniper Skulls use the same parasites as Quiet, but don't need to be nude since they still have functioning lungs.
+Gamechamp3000 Actually, no. It's because Hideo Kojima listened to his penis during the character design process. Then he realized it might be considered in poor taste, so he came up with the scarred lung contrivance. So actually, Quiet isn't mostly nude because her lungs are scarred, her lungs are scarred because she's mostly nude.
nightfighter201 What, poking a fun at Kojima? He's a man like any other. If he masturbates does he not cum? Or something to that effect, I dunno I think I might be paraphrasing.
As somebody that has been living in Germany for some time, this video is 100% right. As an example you could use the world "darf", it is german for "allowed to", but, due to the way it is used, it is easy to mistake for "must do" or "can do", which explains the german mindset a lot. Basically, what is allowed is possible and what is not allowed is simply not possible.
I can't really contribute to this conversation, nor have I anything to add, but... This awesome. Just really, really awesome. I really like and agree with all those cool things you said there and I am now processing in my brains things I had never before considered... not so deeply, anyway. I think I'm going to watch this again...
this is the best review of MGSV. here's someone that really got the idea of the game. although, i want to add something to the conversation: i think americans (and those who have english as their native language) find The Phantom Pain to be harder to understand, because they don't really know how it feels to be in a country with a different mother tongue (mine is spanish, for example) and then have to learn since you were born to also speak other country's language (english), just because that's how the world works. That is something very strong and is a really important theme of the game, if you think about it.
There is a new factor in all of this. The internet. It has it's own culture now, a culture nearly without boarders. It has no physical fatherland or motherland. Language is quickly becoming less of an issue for commutations as technology and translation software advances. It will be interesting to see how our cultures and humanity itself changes in the long term, due to the internet. Another random thought, I wonder how the language of math would tie into theses theories. It is and isn't a language. And it's more universal than any other language. In this theory, would it be considered a language? Would sign language count in this theory too? Would people who speak sign in other languages feel more connected than they did with the people in their own country? This seems to be focusing on spoken language. How about the effects of written language vs spoken language in this theory? Or reading vs writing. I have heard that writing doesn't use the same part of the brain as reading. It's why some people can be great readers but horrible at spelling. Humans have created so many different ways of communicating throughout our history. Reading, writing, speaking, signing, drawing, music, and even feeling, even body language. Are they all viruses?
+Mr.Miles Right now though even the internet is divided by countries, language, etc. I'm not arguing that it will break down barriers, given enough time I'm sure it will. For example though, I speak Japanese as well as english, and when I visit, say, NicoNico Douga, a video sharing website, much like UA-cam, I'm bombarded by a set of videos that are completely unrelated to what is popular or trending in the english equivalent. The majority of websites that exist are still confined by the language, and therefore the physical location, in terms of what people are exposed to. I'm sure I'm not alone in this, where people who speak two or more languages see some trending content from an internet culture in one language, try to show someone who doesn't speak it, and they just can't understand or appreciate it, not because they can't understand it, but because this is an alien culture. If people were willing to abandon their language sphere in the internet, and dive into another one, complete with their own developed net culture, would they enjoy it, appreciate it? I don't think so, not for a while, even with the advent of sophisticated translation software. The only solution I see to this to this, would be use one language such as english. An english forum website I visit is full of people from around the world, who have their own separate internet cultures, precisely because they have english to fall back to.
+Mr.Miles Just to add to that idea of internet culture etc, I often thought about that in the context of the dialect I speak. I may have another accent, losely based on British accents but my dialect is truly and fully that of the internet. There are common American idioms, I don't know, same as British ones. Or Australian, or New Zealandian,... etc. But the ones I mostly use have all come from the internet and are often just known to the people who learned them there. And maybe even more than the one I grew up in, the global internet culture does feel like my own. In certain ways, at least.
This is super interesting also because written language is so different from spoken language, linguistically and psychologically speaking. The fact that an "internet language" is taking shape in an almost entirely written form (besides things like UA-cam), is almost unprecedented linguistically.
Tobias Ommer Yeah internet culture is a very strange thing. It's an entirely new way of forming connections to people and the world.. It's still new, historically speaking and we've yet to see the long term impact of it. But there are elements of culture and sub cultures for sure and those aspects are sure to grow.
Pearl127 I agree, it's super interesting to compare written vs spoken language in this kind of theory. And i agree, written language is lot of the internet culture.. Even memes tend to prefer text. Usually a picture as well but they almost always use text instead of audio. I'd even argue that a large % of UA-cam is text based language . We read the titles, most people still prefer to type a search rather than to use voice to text. We still have to do a lot of reading. And if you want to get really involved in UA-cam, you have to be able to read and write to understand their system. And lets not forget the golden section, The comment section... Actually, what we're doing right now is a great example of how UA-cam is still likely more written language, than spoken.
I think that it's not simply what language you speak, but what languages. For example, a Mexican-American who speaks English, but learns Spanish, is sort of saying, "I speak the language of the nation I was born in (English, in this example), but I want to be connected with my ethnic roots, so I will learn Spanish." The way you interpret the meaning of a work can also say something about you. If you're in a conversation with linguists and someone says the word "bi", they are probably mean to say "bilingual", but if you are talking to a bisexual, the word "bi" takes on a new meaning.
***** At least we think we do. It doesn't help me figure out who I am. Or to accept it. And what do I do with the knowledge once I do know who I am? People don't seem to accept me as who I am anyway. All the time they bounce me around like some ball...
Indeed. For much of the world speaking a language other than the one dictated by the country you're born in has many meanings. An American of Chinese descent might learn Mandarin in order to speak with their elder relatives. In many countries (e.g., Denmark), learning English is part of the normal school curriculum so they can participate in the larger international economic community.
It makes sense. I'm from Peru and learnt Spanish as my "native" language. But I also learnt Quechua during my university years, as a way to reconnect with the deeper or inner part of my culture. Strangely enough, some peers criticized this decision... As if some people found this "wrong" and even anti-nationalistic. But I think of it entierely differently, even if I'm a bit more of Spanish descent than Native descent.
Mordalon well 21 people and counting think I'm right... and does the other guy talk about those things? I thought he mostly whined about narratives or something... and for a story driven game a discussion about a major story aspect seems on topic to me for a "gaming channel"... more so than half the vids I see over there anyway.
Carson Park He mostly uses the aspect of the story as a jumping point for a larger discussion. My point being that just because the conversation is interesting doesn't make it a good game discussion. It's especially funny since most of the talk about MGSV is how few cutscenes and dialogue it has, yet it's superior mechanically to any previous Metal Gear. And there's no need to compare upvote dicks.
The metaphor of language as a virus reminds me of Mikhail Bakhtin's philosophy of Heteroglossia; basically, nothing we ever say is neutral. every word we speak every thought we have is "saturated with ideology." Thus, when people engage in conversation they fuse whatever ideologies they have. in this sense Language could act like a virus that irrevocably changes the world views of anyone engaged in discourse -Omar
Good to see general metal gear discussion being brought up, more importantly I'm glad to see people discussing metal gear's ideas on language. Super interesting stuff.
I wish to take a minute to say how much I appreciate Mr. Rugnetta and all the fine folk at Idea Channel. The content you create always challenges and inspires me. And so: chag sameach, merry Christmas, happy Yule, joyous Kwanzaa and/or Festivus. Thank you for existing. Funnybook wizard Alan Moore has ideas about the subject of this video (and every other subject, probably). The protagonist in "The Birth Caul" attempts to regress to a state before the infection of language -- and ultimately fails, which is rather the point of the thing (I think).
Best video in a while. Terrence McKenna believed that the fundamental building blocks of reality are not particles and fundamental forces, but information and language. He also believed that there is a word for an undiscovered concept that once understood would cause a paradigm shift towards global enlightenment similar to the feeling of enlightenment you had when you discovered the word schadenfreude. It helped you conceptualize a feeling you knew existed, but weren't sure how to express. Terrence, being an awesome hippie, believed the root of this undiscovered word to be love.
I enjoy thinking of native language as a fatherland. I am a native Northern California speaker. I went to Italy for a few months recently and found that even though I could understand literally every word my British companions spoke I felt an intense and instant camaraderie with the people I met who were from California. It was peaceful in a way that reminded me that British English is not my English. I didn't notice the difference until I heard a Californian speak.
As a polyglot speaking five languages with true mastery in one of them I can confirm that each language alters, or to be more precise, enriches your perception of reality. You become subconsciously more aware of the cultural cues in other people's behaviors. You get to understand the mindset of different people with each language acquired, you develop new problem-solving skills and a more generalized understanding of human nature as you - simply put - pick up more of the world's noise than someone with command of their mother tongue only would. Bonus: each language you master allows you to take a figurative further step back to examine yourself. Great episode!
what i find interesting here is the fact that as a native german speaker i grew up with the word schadenfreude. it was a natural and logical thing in my world. but because i learned another language (hint hint it was english) i was able to understand that radical and completley diffrent worldview of yours in wich it is surprising to see a word for that feeling. language is like a key the opens new ways of thinking about the world, thats why i think its actually needed for every person on the planet to learn a language with his native one too. it helps foster understanding and knowing what other people feel(theres a word for it in english but i cant remember it now).
Well. English has a word for Schadenfreude. It's "schadenfreude". I've seen it in the wild ;-) This hinges too much on Sapir-Whorf for my liking. Linguistic determinism ("language restricts thought") is dismissed by modern linguists and the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in particular was shredded to pieces (because the assumptions that inspired it where wrong). Today, linguistic relativism ("language influence thought") is debated among scientists. Proving and measuring the effects is a difficult task, but consensus among linguists seems, that if there is an effect, it's not that big. It's also worth pointing to loglan and lojban, both are constructed languages designed to test sapir-whorf. About the languages vs. dialects thing: The real world does not always fit neatly into categories. And I think the premise is off, because of that. It makes no difference if what I speak is called a dialect or a language in everyday life. I just speak it. Socio-political labels might determine how many people end up speaking my dialect and how people feel about it ( "prestige dialects" vs. others). But ultimately, the label alone does not change who I am or with whom I identify. Speaking more English ultimately changed some of my ways to think and my ideas of the world. But not because of english itself, but the doors it opened. For example: I can watch PBSIdeachannel, participate in Reddit-debates about linguistics and fully understand that Metallica song that was mostly gibberish for me just 10 years ago. Also, if this ends up on /r/badlinguistics: Hi folks! I hope I got everything right :-)
My favorite Metal Gear memory/ story comes from my job as a high school English teacher. A few years ago, one of our homecoming theme days was Celebrity Day. Kanyes and Mileys abounded, but one of my favorite students (with moderate Asperger's syndrome) showed up in full camo and spent most of the day sneaking (as best he could--he was 6" tall, 200 lbs easy) around the hallways and classrooms. Between classes, I complimented him on his Solid Snake outfit. He grinned and said, "Wait, let me show you the best part" before darting into a classroom. I shouldn't have been surprised with a full-sized refrigerator box lumbered into the corridor and plopped down beside me. Trying to silence laughter, I said aloud, "Huh. Guess Thomas disappeared, because now I certainly can't see him," and walked off. True to character, the fridge box waddled down the hallway to algebra.
Good episode. I'm glad someone is bringing this subject up. MGSV is a fine game, and its themes are very interesting, although the game bit of way too much than it could chew. Fortunately, there's people like you who research it a little further and spark a discussion.
BRILLIANT. Just to start up with the amazing part, you managed to explain one of the key themes of MGSV in a minute without it being confusing. Although I'd like to mention something that wasn't really important for this video but for Skull-Face's character and his objective, the reason he starting developing these parasites was also partially because of a man known as "Zero" his former boss and the founder of the organization called Cipher, Cipher wants to use the english language to create a unified world where information is being handled as context by A.Is...machines. Big Boss and Skull-Face are both against a world that is controlled by 4 A.I computers which censor and create context for the people, Big Boss believes the world can only be unified if the conflicts don't contain superpowers like the USA and Russia but a series of perpetual small conflicts that couldn't ever end in nuclear war or world war, he wanted to show the world that war was very much a part of us and since we can't get rid of it, we should work with it. He was the sort of "Big Brother" of war while Zero was the "Big Brother" of information. A large part of the language theme in MGSV was centered around the legend of Big Boss, he is a world famouse soldier and hero who has saved it a couple of times, people know him for that, he has become a literal legend, with true and false stories of his past spreading around, he says "Real heroes are never as polished as the legends that surround them". In MGSV TPP you are the head of the Diamond Dogs, soldiers of different ethnicities, cultures, who speak different languages, had different political agendas... Yet they all work together, because of a man they know as Big Boss. Language is something that we take for granted, but we often forget that language is man made, MGSV plays around with the theme a lot, it is the core of the major plot-twist. Legends can surpass the people they surround, we as the player know why we want revenge but on a neutral perspective, the world sees the Diamond Dogs as corrupted war mongers who only work for money. We see the words "Diamond Dogs" and different people have different concepts in their head on what these words mean, and that is something that fuels the conflicts spoken of in the game. The character of Eli hates his father, Big Boss, with a passion... He is the product of the greatest soldier of the 20th century and is being used for war, he is basically an insurance if Big Boss dies, he is sort of his replacement. That's why Eli acts so rebellious when on Mother Base, they force him to use his name "Eli" which was given to him by Zero, who uses him for war, Eli is not allowed to pick his own name or future. Almost every character has this kind of problem in the game, where their names get surrounded by myths... Finally, if you haven't beaten TPP yet, don't read the following lines *SPOILER ALERT* *SPOILER ALERT* *SPOILER ALERT* *SPOILER ALERT* The final twist in MGSV is that the truth behind the man we play is very much in line with that we see throughout the game, we haven't been playing as THE Big Boss, we are a man that went through plastic surgery and mental psychosis to be shaped into a decoy Big Boss. The game tells us that what we have done wasn't because we were Big Boss, but because we were ourselves, the avatar you create at the beginning turns out to be the original face Punished Venom Snake had. The real Big Boss uses us as a decoy for the world to see, to spread the legends of a man known as "Big Boss" so that the real Boss can build his nation of soldiers in Africa. We are the final twist in the game.
+AvramSMH add to that being a non native english speaker (that's well said? I mean, English is not my mother tongue) I often pause to read things on screen or I rewind a little if I didn't catch some word or phrase
Thank you for adding some more context to something I've been thinking about since I beat the game back in October, Mike. So, my thoughts on MGSV's theme of language relate particularly to the way language can be used as a tool to control the masses and the way words are related to abstract concepts kind of in the same way that newspeak works in 1984. Because throughout the rest of the series, speech is censored by nanomachines to remove certain phrases from people's vocabulary like "The Patriots". And in this game in particular without spoiling too much if you or anyone else hasnt reached the true ending yet, but the idea is applied in a very similar way to the entire identity of one of the main cast members.
This video was very eye opening. But on an unrelated note, when are you going to make a new idea channel playlist thingy with more music videos? That was really awesome.
A video about Language as a virus and no mention of Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash? For those who are not familiar, it is a cyberpunk novel about a hacker who stumbles upon a computer virus that uses human language to program people. The book points out how language and its effect on learning (or infection of information, if you will) have some strong parallels to a computer virus as well as actual viruses. I'm not sure how much I buy into all that but it's a neat idea. Definitely a recommended read, especially if you like cyberpuck, like Shadowrun. :)
My favorite "oh, I didn't know there was a word for that"-word is L'esprit de L'escalier ("Spirit of the Stairs" in French). From what I understand, it's when you have that moment where you think of the perfect comeback to an argument far too late after it has been taken place.
this episode blew my mind. thank you. this sort of lends even more credibility towards the concept of someone being a "citizen of the internet". we basically have our own armies and borders and languages separate from conventional armies, borders and languages. we have access to a different set of information and hence our world views are potentially different. in 1984 Orwell postulates that the language and vocabulary available to a population warps their culture, mentality and perception of "reality". oh god. WHAT IS EVEN REALITY??????
Long time viewer, by far my favorite episode so far. I do believe that languages helps shape the way in which you see the world, and this became pretty clear to me as a teenager once I'd become fluent in english as my second language, and being a native spanish speaker, which somehow created a kind of cognitive dissonance in some aspects I can't really put in words (a bit ironic). I believe anyone who is fluent in more than one language can relate to this feeling in some level, and can perhaps even relate to skull face somehow, depending on each person's circumstances.
The way language is used does offer a sense of community to me now that it did not when I was younger. A series of words possibly from different languages organized in a certain order can be meaningless to one person while linking you to others in powerful ways. This is especially true when discussing fandoms, politics, science etc... I have used language over the past few years to find my tribe so to speak and in doing so have found a homeland not in the nation-state sense but one that I identify with sometimes more fervently than I do as an American.
I can definitely see the logic in this argument. I was born in South Africa and originally spoke Afrikaans. I've lived in an English-speaking country since I was six and though I can understand Afrikaans, I cannot speak it. I have many Afrikaans speaking friends that have been here just as long as me but are still fluent. They always seem more in touch with their culture and I always wonder if their retained fluency of the language is a by-product of their strong connections to their home-country, or the cause.
Well, I was taught by my high school Spanish teacher that fluency in a language only starts when you learn to THINK in that language. So far I've found that this makes a lot of sense both because since thought is mostly abstract bursts of language and ideas you are becoming so comfortable with the language to speak it in your subconscious AND because you are learning to think as the speakers of that language do. So yeah, I think that idea lends a bit more credence to the Language-as-a-Homeland idea.
I definitely think that the Radiolab episode on color and specifically the piece about The Odessy and the color blue is very applicable here. Not only are feelings lost due to lack of vocabulary, but colors, too.
I really enjoyed this episode. Perhaps because I relate to it. But wanted to say to the makers of the show, that I really enjoy all you're doing with the channel and thanks for your hard work. This ep was my first time leaving a thoughtful response (see below) and it's made me realise I really should have contributed to the discussion before now. I have lots more thoughts on it but instead I'm gonna dive through the comments to see what others are saying
Personally, I saw the title 'is language a virus' and found that it fit perfectly with my own experiences of language. I was raised bilingual, living in Brazil in my formative years with a Brazilian father and an Irish mother - until we moved to Northern Ireland when I was 5 years old. I was immediately bullied for being different, I declared that I no longer spoke Portuguese, didn't understand what my father said and I have paid for it ever since. If we put that in the context of this video - moving to an English speaking country killed my ability to speak what had been my mother tongue since I had started learning to talk. English went from being my second language to my first (and only) language. I have since regained the ability to UNDERSTAND Portuguese after listening to my parents speak it for over 20 years, but I lack the grammar and vocabulary banks to actually form more than the most basic of sentences. I then studied Korean and Japanese in university and I noticed that as I became more proficient in the languages I was studying, I began to forget words in English. So now my brain is a mishmash of four languages, none of which I speak particularly well (esp considering I have a Northern Irish accent, which is unintelligible to some) and I find that I THINK in the last language I heard someone else speaking, eg; if I watch a Korean tv show, I will start thinking in Korean, if I hear Japanese speakers, I start thinking in Japanese.
Wonderful video with excellent points all around. I think Skull Face is wrong about English; there's nothing about the nature of the language that makes it more conducive to colonialism or imperialism, any more than Spanish, Russian, Arabic, Chinese,, Latin or any other language spoken by a large empire. As you said, English supplanting the languages of colonized cultures is a symptom of globalization and not a characteristic of the language itself. However, I wonder if Wittgenstein's concept of the language game might be appropriate for the discussion? English as a whole may not be built for imperialism, but within English we can construct a series of words, aphorisms, and easily invoked arguments that may create a "language" of imperialism, a "language" of colonialism or a "language" of militarism. You can see it in politics - how a conservative candidate might overuse the word "family," or a liberal candidate might lean on "the middle class" and how both would invoke "the people" constantly. Language may not always capture the complete spectrum of lived reality, as per your Schadenfreude example, but depending on how readily some words and aphorisms are to you, it may shape your ability to articulate lived reality, depending on what language game you play. That game might be a better understanding of the "virus" of language than Skull Face's deterministic reading.
As a linguist, I was shocked to see how accurately this depicts sociolinguistic ideas of language and identity. It's so rare that anyone outside the field bothers to think about language critically!
This is a really fascinating video and I think I might need some time to think about it more. I'm a language major itself, so these kinds of questions came up a lot in our upper division classes in considering particular focuses on our language learning post-graduation or even jobs or simply being able to understand people from different parts of the target country. In particular though, I think it's kind of interesting that all of this came from Kojima because Japan itself has a very interesting linguistic history and set of dialects. For myself, my target language that I learned was Japanese as well and as an aside, I am trying to get better at it to use it more practically in a work setting, which in itself can be difficult because you can learn a language, but levels of fluency really vary so much that a regular person who hasn't learned a language can't possibly understand. When you start on the journey of learning a new language though, you really begin to understand the idea of how language is conceptually your father country or father tongue because it's your brain's base 0. Before moving on, I do have to comment that this wording of "father tongue" or "father language" is actually super interesting too because the Japanese word for native language is actually "haha go" or "mother language" so the conceptual translation of this whole thing is fascinating as well in terms of the story and how it relates to the characters and their lives since the emphasis is more on fathers, but that's maybe an idea for another day. When you pick up a new language though, after learning the basics and grammar and skills that can help you to dynamically learn in the future, what you're left with is learning vocabulary. Vocabulary for a second language learner is limited based on what you have experience talking about. Like in school, they maybe give you projects where you learn how to order food at a restaurant and while maybe you learn all of the words for that and you can get by just fine if you go to Japan, knowing things like that don't mean that you can carry on a conversation about say flowers or gardening because you've never encountered the vocabulary for gardening before even in passing in Japanese. When you're a native speaker though, you don't really notice that you passively picked up a lot of vocabulary you would need to talk about gardening even if maybe you didn't know the specific name for the tools or the flowers, you have a wider range of vocabulary to use to at least be able to describe something. If you're a second language learner, you don't even necessarily have that, so until you get to a certain level someone faced with that kind of situation basically can only respond with silence. Japanese, however, has some cheats to it which is with katakana, and that's an alphabet that is strictly used for foreign words and most often these days, English or words derived from English. Katakana itself has a history where in the past it used to be used more for official court documents, but in terms of modern standardization it came to be used to express foreign words. I suppose linguistically it was easier than the Sinified kanji that Chinese typically use or just using the English word. That language cheat though is something that infiltrates a lot of modern Japanese and is in one sense a cultural problem where modern Japanese are starting to use more katakana-ized words in popular culture and everyday speak than the actual word in Japanese. If you look at it from that perspective you can start to see how the idea of English as a virus derives from a distinctly Japanese viewpoint and sensibility. I mean, English there is often used as a fashionable or trendy thing that we often hear about on clothes and stationary and stuff that make absolutely no sense that spawn things like Engrish.com. Us native English speakers laugh at them for sure, but also what does it mean when the Japanese language because dilluted with English words in lyrics and everyday use? This problem is also exacerbated by technology where it's a more known and common problem that remembering how to write kanji on paper is a struggle since most modern communication is with computers and devices and those items will automatically pop up the kanji that you want, so as long as you have a vague memory of what it looks like, you don't need to remember how to write it. If you try to make a handwritten note though, there's a number of people who forget the stroke count or what the specific radical for that character is and that's a problem even for native speakers and I believe in a report by one of the Prime Ministers at one point they had the wrong kanji by mistake. When you have those levels of problems it can kind of be easy to understand how the story ideas from Metal Gear may have developed.
Furthermore, I think we also have to consider the way the English language functions in terms of how it's used and how other languages and cultures are incorporated into it. In terms of etymology, we have a number of words that derive from other languages like French or Spanish and today even a few from Japanese, but the English language itself or at least how it's used by English speakers is a really asshole entitled language. While it may borrow or derive terms from other languages, the pronunciation is hardly ever kept. English speakers instead of learning HOW the word is actually spoken in the original language and incorporating that into use, they pronounce it however they damn well feel like it and just say "THIS IS HOW WE PRONOUNCE IT ENGLISH." That kind of attitude kind of makes English a jerk language. I mean, for Japanese borrowed words, we have emoji, anime, and manga for instance. Emoji probably one of the most ubiquitous these days, but everyone in English pronounces it "EE-MOH-JEE" even though in Japanese it's "EH-MOH-JEE". We don't learn from other people. We just decide on a pronunciation and then STICK TO IT LIKE STUBBORN JERKS because we have a really entitled attitude about language. In contrast, other countries and other languages including Japanese try to pronounce foreign words as close to the original as possible. Katakana also serves that purpose in order to try to phonetically break down the source word to something that Japanese can pronounce, but it still takes a lot of consideration of the source language. They don't just slap a name on it and call it a day. This kind of thinking can most easily be seen by the names given to other countries. Like in English, it's even kind of a bit offensive that we call Japan "Japan" because that's not what they call themselves. Japan is Nihon or Nippon. For Japanese at least there's kind of a etymological history that can be tracked back to the word "Nihon" in that the Southern Chinese/Cantonese pronunciation for the same characters is "yatpun" and early I believe Dutch traders were trading with Chinese traders and first heard about Japan from them. When they brought tales of the place back to Europe, they used their spelling which is I think like "Japon" or something with the J being a stand in for the Y sound in that language and not the J sound as we English speakers know it, but we took that and decided to pronounce it "the English way" so that it's even disconnected from the close Dutch pronunciation and even further removed from the original. In Japan on the other hand, the names of the countries that they give are related to what the people call themselves. One of the most difficult things for me to learn was the name for Germany because I hadn't realized before that Germany called itself Deutschland. In Japanese, Germany is called "Doitsu" in reference to the root of Deutsch from the name they call themselves. I mean, these are like differences for popular countries, but we also have this "slap a name on it" problem when it comes to northern native tribes like the "Inuits" and other people that we colloquially call "eskimos" and name problems in general and ignorance about "Native Americans" or "First People". The way we use language to talk about other people is often rather reductive and inconsiderate instead of being open and accepting. Lastly, all of that and the use of English, I think can also be used in comparison to the development of Japanese as a modern language. Dialects in Japan do exist as well, but some of them are pretty different similar to Wenzhounese. Like Okinawan and Kansai-ben are specialized fields of linguistic study for Japanese and can be quite different. Osaka-ben is even a bit different from what's becoming standardized in Kansai-ben. Japanese itself as a standardized modern language focuses quite a bit more on the Japanese spoken in Tokyo since it's the capital as of the time it was being standardized during the Meiji Period. Standardization was an important part of modernizing Japan after it ended its isolation because it provided legitimacy to the outside world and helped to open the doors for diplomacy with other nations. Having a standardized language was imperative for a developed nation and so standardizing the language was a huge amount of change that happened in the country that increased literacy for all Japanese students significantly and brought about national communication within just about 50 years time (or even less) where previously it was limited only to the rich and a bit more difficult to travel about the country and communicate. The Kansai area though, is still somewhat unchanged though which is why Kansai Japanese has become a specialization, but at least the standard is there and exists to be a common form of communication outside of the dialect. Dialects though are still quite important and for voice actors they have that denoted on their profile pages at their talent agencies that they can speak a certain dialect. But even with the standardization, what a lot of us overseas don't realize is that a lot of Tokyo programming that airs in other parts of the country get aired with Japanese subtitles as "closed captions" so that you can read the standard Japanese because dialects still exist. This was a revelation for us as well in one of my upper division courses and our instructor asked us why they would need it. Sure it helps for the hearing impaired and such, but it's because it also serves the function of allowing understanding between different regions of the country. This is pretty much all the thoughts I have on this right now. It's such an interesting topic though that I think I need to contemplate more on it too.
Igor Korzun From your example, it kind of sounds like any language/culture that historically felt itself to be a world power or dominant in some way seems to have that entitlement built into their language. Chinese I would kind of understand since it was kind of the center for a lot of cultural development in Asia, so perhaps that language entitlement comes from, "Meh, everyone else bows to us." Also, as an FYI to anyone else, I do have Chinese heritage too, so I have some language experience with it, but more on the Cantonese side. Chinese gets a lot more complicated when you start going into the dialects. The development of Mandarin I can't really speak to, but there's a country split there even with Mandarin as the official language. Dialects are typically similar to either Mandarin or Cantonese and Cantonese is more similar to classical Chinese. All that said though, the Cantonese that my grandma used when she talked about people from other cultures was actually kind of racist and I didn't know until I got older and talked to other Chinese people. When I was little those were the only words I heard, so I thought that's what they were called. Although for slurs, linguistically the words my grandma used kind of also seem to be notes of showing more of the fear of them and their capabilities, which is kind of interesting from the perspective of a vulnerable peasant.
A counterpoint to this that I found really interesting in MGSV was that (in the audio cassettes) Code Talker actually lays out an alternate evolutionary theory of language altogether, which ties the vocal chord parasites to the LITERAL evolution of human speech - basically that in symbiosis with us, the vocal chord parasite guided our vocal chords through selection to be more beneficial to it, which in turn strengthened our ability to share culture and build civilization itself. I think this is an important balancing counterpoint in the game for understanding its thematic center. At least in the West, but I'd hazard a guess elsewhere too, we most often associate the word 'parasite' (and thus concept, or maybe visa versa?) with a lot of negative associations - biological disease or social undesirables - but parasites aren't fundamentally destructive. Human digestion, as Code Talker mentions, is only possible through symbiosis with microbial organisms living inside us. And the game shows parasites doing miraculous things, saving and enriching human lives as much as utterly destroying them. SkullFace, however, has in fact internalized this Western connotation (through being "infected" by English, as he would put it) and can only see parasites as negative, as disease - while Code Talker, who has been able to maintain his own linguistic identity, sees across these distinctions. Though they both rely on the parasites to live, one has found balance, while the other is at war with himself and the world. So taking this into account, I'd say MGSV's main message is to inspire finding true symbiosis in and between languages (and thus, our global human reality of nations, ethnicities, religions, etc) - and ultimately true 'peace', which is the oft-stated goal of the series' characters over many games.
7:18 we do have a parallel and it's called sadism. It isn't perfectly synonymous but they both derive from the concept of pleasure deriving from the pain of others.
There was a study that suggested that thinking in a different language than you speak can actually help you make better decisions. So it seems to be true that language does somehow affect the way you think.
First of all, I want to tell you how much I love the Idea Channel! Second, once there are many language theories, I want to point the perspective my research group, here in Brazil, follows. Based on philosophers as Foucault and Derrida, we may say that at the same time a language creates who we are, we create it too. It' not a one way road. It's through language that the use power and we tell about the world. If you want to know more about it, search for some texts about the french perspective of discourse analysis.
I think my favorite thing about this channel is how fast you talk. I keep trying to watch Vsauce videos, but he just talks sooo slowly, it drives me crazy. Keep being awesome!
question for any gundam experts around here relating to said topic: the Gundam 00 moive thing where 00 quanta and flower was in. in order to communicate to the ''aliens'' the had to use something complicated.... what was it again? and what was it?
This reminds me a lot of CGP grey's video on thought-germs. If we say language is an idea, it would fit neatly into that category, and both of these arguments would compliment each other nicely.
thanks for this episode, one of the best in a long while IMO (not that any of them were bad). I know it's old, but MGS2 is a deep deep well of incredibly thought provoking and relevant ideas about both media and... everything else? perceptions and indoctrination? the nature of reality? democracy and censorship and MEMES? it could make a hell of an idea channel episode, to be sure.
I think an interesting thing to note that there’s a lot of dispute about this idea that your language influences the way you think (which I believe linguists call Neo-Whorfianism). Think about causality. Does language determine the way people think or is it the other way around? Which, for example, makes more sense: an isolated tribe has no word for “clothes” because they’re naked or that they’re naked because they have no word for clothes? To stick with the terminology, this critique would imply that culture is the virus and language merely a symptom. This, to me, makes a lot more sense, especially as an explanation for stuff like dialects.
did you know that in Denmark we have a word for that warm and fussy feeling you have wen you sit down with a hot drink wen you come from the cold outside, its that comfy feeling that you now so well from you're childhood.
I think at times this video strayed into strong linguistic determinism (which has little scientific support) compared to weak linguistic determinism (which is where the field stands now). Great video, very interesting!
I definitely agree that speaking a different language changes you. I lived in Japan for a number of years, and any time I speak or think in Japanese it's like I become a different person.
Coming back to this video because I love the topic, but the William S Burroughs thing is sort of interesting because in MGSV the tapes from Codetalker go on about how language isn't a VIRUS, it's a SYMBIOSIS. The Vocal Cord Parasites became symbiotic with certain apes and in doing so encouraged us to create complex languages (which in turn gave humanity the ability to become the dominant species). When the VCP died out, we still kept the languages. So it's a bit more optimistic a version of "language is a virus from outer space".
Having been born in England yet growing up in Costa Rica, i can say that there is some validity to the concept of language as my 'fatherland'. There is something of a permanent change in my English accent that marks me as foreign to any English person who hears it.
Well this is eerie. I happen to be writing my final research paper this week on linguistic relativity, the overarching theory that effectively encapsulates ideas like linguistic determinism. I guess the only substantive thing I can add to this idea after all my research would be the fact that, despite all our experimentation and research on this theory, no one has found any conclusive data on exactly how much language effects our cognition. Like, language scholars since the 1970's definitely agree it changes our perceptions but in what ways and how much is still up in the air. So it could be largely inconsequential, but this gap in our knowledge only becomes more pressing as the world gets more globalized, old languages die out, and English inches closer and closer to being the global language. It should be noted that speakers of English the world over are trying to adapt and change it for their own uses so perhaps it won't be nearly as culturally destructive as Mr. Skull Face says it is but measuring the effects of linguistic relativity so that we can understand what effect global languages could/would have on people is still a very real concern. Anyway, fantastically serendipitous video Mike!
My grandfather speaks fluent Spanish and will speak it any chance he gets, and thus despite living in America for the past 48 years, he see's himself as Spanish. However I do not know the language with like he does, my language is English, and thus I feel more American. In fact in an attempt to become more in tune with my ethnicity I tried to learn to speak fluent Spanish. So I think there is something to be said about language, and what it means to the individual, because no matter how good at Spanish I get, I still think in English, my first language, and it changes even the way I speak Spanish.
Currently reading Etymologicon by Mark Forsyth (& loving every second of it) & I gotta say that knowing the origin of words gives very decisive support to the Idea of viral language... but also kinda undermines it... I'm dancing around the details 'cause I don't want to spoil it....
I always assumed dialects were the beginnings of new languages / language splits, in the same way breeds are the beginnings of new species / speciation.
I felt uncofortable when he clarified that he is not spying on us. Like, where the idea even came from, why do you need to ensure me you're not spying on me? DO YOU SPY ON ME?!!
In my life, my language surely shapes the way that I think and the way that I feel. I often find myself describing my feelings with "there are no words..." or "words cannot describe..." My language limits me from conveying myself fully to other people so that they may empathize with me, but it also limits me from truly understanding my own feelings. It seems ridiculous to me, but my inability to come up with a word to describe a feeling means that I am forces to put that particular experience into a mental box labeled "indescribable," rather than putting it in a more complex and fleshed out box in which my experience might be fully realized. Because of this, my language is my fatherland. It has nurtured me and given me a mind only capable of experiencing infinite emotions in a finite way.
I'm surprised you talked about language being a virus but didn't talk about the film PontyPool. Were in understanding the concept someone expresses with words spreads a zombie virus. (Its been a while since I've seen this movie. I could be miss remembering it.)
The game sort of addresses the idea that your language is your fatherland in Code Talker. He goes on in conversations with Code Talker to express that the DIne are immune to all strains of the virus. Which I personally read as Kojima's rather hidden point that while English is the 'language of America' the Navajo, and original Americans are immune to this problem.
I guess for me, language is very much home, or my strongest connection to home. I immigrated to Australia when I was 8, and in the 11 years I've been here, I've only been back once. I don't remember most of my family and the ones I do, I remember vaguely. Legally I'm not really tied to my home country as it doesn't allow for dual citizenship. In addition, growing up here, I've gotten used to being the only person from my country (until recently). So for me, my language is the strongest connection I have to home as it still connects me to the music more intimately, jokes, history, people and family when I do talk to them on occasion. There are memories tied with my language some that were buried so deep within, that I didn't even know they were still there until they were triggered. I think it's important that I not only continue to maintain my ability to speak it, but i have to speak it so well and so fluently, that's it's like I never left. To me, If start to lose it, then I'll lose what's left of my cultural ties, and bits of myself might be lost to me completely as well.
Mike! any comments on Lacan's concept of language as the structure of the psique? language as a "place"? i'm too tired to expand upon this, its very late in Brazil (in my own language its spelled with an S: Brasil) i hope you can make a good enough parallel
I was born in Ireland but left as a ten year old and spent 5 years in Australia, 4 in the Netherlands (in an American English school) and now live in the UK. I am basically monolingual in English, but my accent is incredibly muddled. It is basically impossible for anybody to pin "where I'm from" down by hearing me speak. I suppose from this perspective I have a bias towards interpreting language as a facilitator of communication, and an instrument of understanding, rather than a cage restricting thought and imagination. My path has made me a very different person to the friends I had as a child who still live in Ireland. It seems to me that the development of a global lingua franca would more than make up for loss of diversity, by creating a way to share experiences that would incommunicable otherwise. Our experiences are based upon so much more than just the language you speak, and even if we were to all end up speaking one language, what we would lose in cultural variety, our heightened capacity to share, cooperate and understand each other would compensate. From somebody who has lost their identifying dialect, but gained a platform of understanding far beyond just Ireland, that's how it has worked out in my life.
I'm a Brazilian, and the fact we speak Portuguese is not only of the major aspects that define our nationality, I would say its the most important, both on a cultural level and historic one. One of the reasons language is such a defining characteristics of our nationality is in part the fact that we are the only country in the Americas that speaks Portuguese, so much so, that probably the greatest insult you can say to a Brazilian is to think we speak Spanish. But also that Brazilian society has a high degree of miscegenation between its ethnic groups and the Portuguese language was what united the country as a whole. This unification by language was so powerful and ubiquitous that even for a country of our size there is almost no dialectic difference between the regions.
Well memes are viruses and memes are a kind of dialect?
Also I used to speak Hungarian fluently when we used to visit very often, and then we didn't anymore when my grandpa died. I went back a few years ago after having been gone for over a decade (and having lost most of my ability to speak it) and it did very much feel like I was no longer "going home". I knew nothing about this game but it's interesting they made him Hungarian since it is a language isolate. Being a monolingual Hungarian speaker is already isolating but then losing it and having only, arguably more useful, second tongues is a unique experience... Which I apparently share with a skull man.
+lyadmilo See my comment, but memes are indeed viruses, but language is the vector, the medium by which they travel. They aren't their own language.
+lyadmilo Hungarian isn't a language isolate. It's related to Finnish and other Uralic languages.
+lyadmilo Kojima, the director of Metal Gear Solid 5, does not go in-depth with Skull Face but it is mentioned that he is a Szekely, a Hungarian from Transylvania. That's the region of Hungary that Romania took over after World War I.
Szekely is pronounced C.K. and is also the last name of Louis Szekely, a famous American comedian with Hungarian roots.
+TheAbsoluTurk I think (s)he means geographically, other than the hungarian minorities in the bordering countries, there are no related (romanian, german, a bunch of slavic)
+Kruglord Language is a meme.
Interestingly enough and perhaps not-so-coincidentally, MGSV was the first game in the series to be voiced in English before it was voiced in Japanese. I guess Kojima succumbed to the virus.
Is that why he has fired - Or I'm sorry "on vacation"
Konami's next project: erase all records of Hideo Kojima's existence.
+Kevin S The kojima cleansers will erase kojima and his memory from existence.
@@Renacles What's that supposed to mean? hopefully not something negative, I hope.
4 years on. Mike saying "its nice to be back" at the end of this video makes me miss him soooo much. Ahhh parasocial relationships are tough.
Sameeeeee, is he actually doing anything atm? Out of all the PBS Channels his is by far the best, second only to the Aussie Physics guy...
A great book (that I'm sure you used as research for this video) is Through the Language Glass: Why the World Looks Different in Other Languages. I referenced it in a video I did about how Daredevil can "see." He always explains it in terms that we can understand, but follows it up by clarifying that his descriptions are not literally how his radar sense works. There isn't the proper vocabulary available for him to tell us precisely how he sees the world, so he's forced to use inadequate analogies.
There's also a little anecdote I've heard before about how English is biased towards assigning blame. Don't quote me on this because I can't remember the source. The basic idea is if you set up a scenario where someone accidentally knocks over a vase causing it to shatter, English speakers will say "They broke the vase" whereas other languages will say something that translates to "The vase broke." Again, no idea where I heard this, so it could be completely wrong. If it is true, it's kinda interesting.
Language. Fascinating stuff. :)
Robert Laurence Yeah, I really need to find that source!
+NerdSync Maybe something like this one: www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703467304575383131592767868. The author actually mentions the "who broke the vase" example.
This was an absolutely fascinating video. Especially since I am an anglophone Canadian who has lived in Quebec for the last few years. Transitioning to being bilingual and being a linguistic minority has changed my perceptions from what I would have thought a few years ago. Language is definitely identity and provides a lens by which you will analyze the world. And it is a virus that can be spread, often by the more vulgar parts of human nature. It's bizarre that in my context as an anglophone, even when I am a minority, I can generally rely on people having more knowledge of my language than I do of theirs off the top of my head. English is a virulent cultural identity that has subsumed the world.
Learning to converse in French has also changed some of my opinions on the role of language. When I was younger, I taught myself to speak Esperanto. Esperanto is an odd language because people of certain convictions created the language and a similar group of people speak it. It's a mindset that created a language. Which is different than a language being at the root of continuation of culture. Speaking French comes with a completely different set of baggage that didn't originally make any sense to me. Whereas speaking Esperanto didn't come with this.
You misspelt your name.
+Joey Broda I agree was really fascinating! I definitely understand the virulent feeling, also being an anglophone Canadian; its weird to travel to places like Europe and just expect people to understand my language. I like the idea of language being akin to different types of coding, which often reflects the cultural identity of the people who speak it. You can hear it in the variety and compounding of words some language have compared to others.
Also thanks for mentioning Esperanto; just looked it up and will try to learn more about it!
Esperanto is really cool. It was fun to pick up, though I have grown a bit disillusioned with the idea over time.
Yes Esperanto, being artificial, does mean that one does not have to learn about the culture that comes with the language. However, I think Esperanto does bring a different worldview in the same way the other languages do, which is in the grammar and words that are used to describe things. When thinking in Esperanto, one thinks of wanting and being able to do things in a similar way because it's the same grammar point, just with one different word being substituted, whereas in English, being able comes under the group of 'this is how you exist' because one can BE able, BE special, BE silly, BE important, but not BE want, and while one can be wanting of, that's a very roundabout way of saying it that is used rarely and has a slightly different nuance anyway. And being able doesn't fall under the same grammatical category as wanting, either.
Another thing worth mentioning is Toki Pona, another constructed language. I haven't looked into it much, but because of the limited vocabulary, one has to describe things instead of just using it's name. One example is that 'coffee' might be described as bitter dark drink or energy black drink, depending on your particular view of coffee. So while this is obviously a rather extreme example, this concept of each person's own experience changing how they describe things and view the world would be evident in all languages, simply because a vocabulary that covers every specific thing would not be reasonable.
My point about Esperanto was more that I was of a worldview and that brought me to Esperanto. Someone who isn't cosmopolitan or interested internationalism and peace probably won't be interested by Esperanto. Though you do make a good point with the downplayed rule of "to be". I hadn't considered that. I had always classified that under efficiency.
Thanks for the insight.
I hate to agree with a supervillain but English Language really is a tool of domination, you don't see it because English is your native tongue, but here in Latin America you see people replacing perfectly good Spanish words and expressions with English ones. Or there was the case of the owner of the only comic book store in Costa Rica, who refused to learn Spanish, so in a way we, the Spanish speaking costumers, were forced to abandon our native language for the benefit of a US invader.
Now, this is not to say I disagree with Dorothy Lee, being bilingual has certainly expanded my worldview and allowed me to connect with other people; it's that when one language overrides another one you have a problem. You can just look at your own history and what happened to Native American languages after the British came
It's just how history works. One language becomes the dominant language for use in trade across languages. In the Mediterranean area and later expanded to the middle east, northern Africa, and most of western Europe spoke Greek as the common tongue, despite the romans ruled during most of this time. It later became Latin as Christianity spread to the scandanavian/teutonic/slavic tribes and nations. Then, it was English. I know I am missing some periods here and there, but those three were the most notable.
@@jamesgarlick4573 Yes, I know what colonialism is; what's your point?
SUCH A LUST FOR IDEAS?
+Mitch Gosser (PolterZeitgeist) WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?!
+Mitch Gosser (PolterZeitgeist) who is repsonsible for this?!
WHOOOOO!!!!???
+Mitch Gosser (PolterZeitgeist) Wieso benutzt ihr von all den schönen deutschen Wörtern gerade Schadenfreude, Zeitgeist und Rucksack?!
Language is an interesting thing, because often it is so tied to the land and culture of its native country that to remove that speaker and place them in a new area will inevitably make a new culture (or language/dialect).
I'm reminded of the mass influx of Italians during the 1900's and how they formed these massive communities where you didn't always need to know English. However, over time English did start to creep into the language making it change, and the culture of these Italian -Americans started to change into their own new... Thing! Today, it's actually kinda hard to understand someone that speaks one of these Italian-American mixes as they're now so subtly different from the original. I find this doubly funny because Italian (orig) has changed so little over the years that modern day Italians can actually read old manuscripts from the 1600's! (Compared to English speakers who wouldn't even come close to reading old English like that of the original Beowulf).
I can barely read English from 200 years ago, because of all them squiggly lines!
+Joshua Graham Thats probably from Norwegian/Slavic influences of the day. Just as modern English steals grammar and letters from other languages, so did the old!
(Beowulf in Old English)
www.northvegr.org/sagas%20annd%20epics/epic%20poetry/beowulf/002.html
+Joshua Graham Do you mean 1815 or 2077?
MrMonkeywrestler
Both, my original timeline had some rather odd Pre-war technical lingo.
(*cough* BIG EMPTY! *cough*)
if you'd like to see how far sci-fi can take this idea, you should check out Snow Crash. A central part of the plot is hackers being infected by a linguistic virus that fries their brains. Plus the main charger runs around dual-wielding katanas. It's crazy, but voted one of the top 25 sci Fi books of all time.
It may have been mentioned already, but the film Ponty Pool brings up this point as the means by which a zombie apocalypse occurs through infecting people's minds through an idea transmitted via the English language. It is really impeccably done and I highly recommend it.
In response to the part at 2:45: Quiet doesn't have to not wear clothes only as a result of the parasites, it's because her lungs have been scarred to the point they can no longer function. The sniper Skulls use the same parasites as Quiet, but don't need to be nude since they still have functioning lungs.
+Gamechamp3000 Actually, no. It's because Hideo Kojima listened to his penis during the character design process. Then he realized it might be considered in poor taste, so he came up with the scarred lung contrivance. So actually, Quiet isn't mostly nude because her lungs are scarred, her lungs are scarred because she's mostly nude.
Eon2641 Well of course! I only meant the in-universe explanation.
+Eon2641 you're not wrong, but that doesn't mean I appreciate what you're doing.
nightfighter201 What, poking a fun at Kojima? He's a man like any other. If he masturbates does he not cum? Or something to that effect, I dunno I think I might be paraphrasing.
ectofrost'kay, I won't then.
As somebody that has been living in Germany for some time, this video is 100% right. As an example you could use the world "darf", it is german for "allowed to", but, due to the way it is used, it is easy to mistake for "must do" or "can do", which explains the german mindset a lot. Basically, what is allowed is possible and what is not allowed is simply not possible.
I can't really contribute to this conversation, nor have I anything to add, but... This awesome. Just really, really awesome. I really like and agree with all those cool things you said there and I am now processing in my brains things I had never before considered... not so deeply, anyway. I think I'm going to watch this again...
this is the best review of MGSV.
here's someone that really got the idea of the game.
although, i want to add something to the conversation: i think americans (and those who have english as their native language) find The Phantom Pain to be harder to understand, because they don't really know how it feels to be in a country with a different mother tongue (mine is spanish, for example) and then have to learn since you were born to also speak other country's language (english), just because that's how the world works.
That is something very strong and is a really important theme of the game, if you think about it.
There is a new factor in all of this. The internet. It has it's own culture now, a culture nearly without boarders. It has no physical fatherland or motherland. Language is quickly becoming less of an issue for commutations as technology and translation software advances. It will be interesting to see how our cultures and humanity itself changes in the long term, due to the internet.
Another random thought, I wonder how the language of math would tie into theses theories. It is and isn't a language. And it's more universal than any other language. In this theory, would it be considered a language?
Would sign language count in this theory too? Would people who speak sign in other languages feel more connected than they did with the people in their own country?
This seems to be focusing on spoken language. How about the effects of written language vs spoken language in this theory? Or reading vs writing. I have heard that writing doesn't use the same part of the brain as reading. It's why some people can be great readers but horrible at spelling.
Humans have created so many different ways of communicating throughout our history. Reading, writing, speaking, signing, drawing, music, and even feeling, even body language. Are they all viruses?
+Mr.Miles Right now though even the internet is divided by countries, language, etc. I'm not arguing that it will break down barriers, given enough time I'm sure it will. For example though, I speak Japanese as well as english, and when I visit, say, NicoNico Douga, a video sharing website, much like UA-cam, I'm bombarded by a set of videos that are completely unrelated to what is popular or trending in the english equivalent. The majority of websites that exist are still confined by the language, and therefore the physical location, in terms of what people are exposed to.
I'm sure I'm not alone in this, where people who speak two or more languages see some trending content from an internet culture in one language, try to show someone who doesn't speak it, and they just can't understand or appreciate it, not because they can't understand it, but because this is an alien culture.
If people were willing to abandon their language sphere in the internet, and dive into another one, complete with their own developed net culture, would they enjoy it, appreciate it? I don't think so, not for a while, even with the advent of sophisticated translation software.
The only solution I see to this to this, would be use one language such as english. An english forum website I visit is full of people from around the world, who have their own separate internet cultures, precisely because they have english to fall back to.
+Mr.Miles Just to add to that idea of internet culture etc, I often thought about that in the context of the dialect I speak. I may have another accent, losely based on British accents but my dialect is truly and fully that of the internet. There are common American idioms, I don't know, same as British ones. Or Australian, or New Zealandian,... etc. But the ones I mostly use have all come from the internet and are often just known to the people who learned them there. And maybe even more than the one I grew up in, the global internet culture does feel like my own. In certain ways, at least.
This is super interesting also because written language is so different from spoken language, linguistically and psychologically speaking. The fact that an "internet language" is taking shape in an almost entirely written form (besides things like UA-cam), is almost unprecedented linguistically.
Tobias Ommer Yeah internet culture is a very strange thing. It's an entirely new way of forming connections to people and the world.. It's still new, historically speaking and we've yet to see the long term impact of it. But there are elements of culture and sub cultures for sure and those aspects are sure to grow.
Pearl127 I agree, it's super interesting to compare written vs spoken language in this kind of theory.
And i agree, written language is lot of the internet culture.. Even memes tend to prefer text. Usually a picture as well but they almost always use text instead of audio.
I'd even argue that a large % of UA-cam is text based language . We read the titles, most people still prefer to type a search rather than to use voice to text. We still have to do a lot of reading. And if you want to get really involved in UA-cam, you have to be able to read and write to understand their system. And lets not forget the golden section, The comment section... Actually, what we're doing right now is a great example of how UA-cam is still likely more written language, than spoken.
I think that it's not simply what language you speak, but what languages. For example, a Mexican-American who speaks English, but learns Spanish, is sort of saying, "I speak the language of the nation I was born in (English, in this example), but I want to be connected with my ethnic roots, so I will learn Spanish." The way you interpret the meaning of a work can also say something about you. If you're in a conversation with linguists and someone says the word "bi", they are probably mean to say "bilingual", but if you are talking to a bisexual, the word "bi" takes on a new meaning.
I don't know who I am.
***** At least we think we do. It doesn't help me figure out who I am. Or to accept it. And what do I do with the knowledge once I do know who I am? People don't seem to accept me as who I am anyway. All the time they bounce me around like some ball...
Indeed. For much of the world speaking a language other than the one dictated by the country you're born in has many meanings. An American of Chinese descent might learn Mandarin in order to speak with their elder relatives. In many countries (e.g., Denmark), learning English is part of the normal school curriculum so they can participate in the larger international economic community.
It makes sense. I'm from Peru and learnt Spanish as my "native" language. But I also learnt Quechua during my university years, as a way to reconnect with the deeper or inner part of my culture. Strangely enough, some peers criticized this decision... As if some people found this "wrong" and even anti-nationalistic. But I think of it entierely differently, even if I'm a bit more of Spanish descent than Native descent.
Better at talking gaming than the gaming channel. Lol.
+Carson Park This was only about one major aspect of the story, not the gameplay mechanics or any other part of what makes it a game.
Mordalon well 21 people and counting think I'm right... and does the other guy talk about those things? I thought he mostly whined about narratives or something... and for a story driven game a discussion about a major story aspect seems on topic to me for a "gaming channel"... more so than half the vids I see over there anyway.
Carson Park
He mostly uses the aspect of the story as a jumping point for a larger discussion. My point being that just because the conversation is interesting doesn't make it a good game discussion. It's especially funny since most of the talk about MGSV is how few cutscenes and dialogue it has, yet it's superior mechanically to any previous Metal Gear. And there's no need to compare upvote dicks.
The metaphor of language as a virus reminds me of Mikhail Bakhtin's philosophy of Heteroglossia; basically, nothing we ever say is neutral. every word we speak every thought we have is "saturated with ideology." Thus, when people engage in conversation they fuse whatever ideologies they have. in this sense Language could act like a virus that irrevocably changes the world views of anyone engaged in discourse -Omar
I've really been waiting for you to get out an episode like this one again for awhile. Thanks you!
A video about virulent languages and no mention to _Pontypool_?
+Arturo Gutierrez Came here to make the obligatory Pontypool post as well lol
+Arturo Gutierrez That's what I was thinking as well.
Language Zombies are always best zombies
Sydney Briar is alive!
Damn! Beat me to that Pontypool reference.
in your little animation cheerio doesn't mean hello, it means goodbye
Good to see general metal gear discussion being brought up, more importantly I'm glad to see people discussing metal gear's ideas on language. Super interesting stuff.
I wish to take a minute to say how much I appreciate Mr. Rugnetta and all the fine folk at Idea Channel. The content you create always challenges and inspires me. And so: chag sameach, merry Christmas, happy Yule, joyous Kwanzaa and/or Festivus. Thank you for existing.
Funnybook wizard Alan Moore has ideas about the subject of this video (and every other subject, probably). The protagonist in "The Birth Caul" attempts to regress to a state before the infection of language -- and ultimately fails, which is rather the point of the thing (I think).
Best video in a while. Terrence McKenna believed that the fundamental building blocks of reality are not particles and fundamental forces, but information and language. He also believed that there is a word for an undiscovered concept that once understood would cause a paradigm shift towards global enlightenment similar to the feeling of enlightenment you had when you discovered the word schadenfreude. It helped you conceptualize a feeling you knew existed, but weren't sure how to express. Terrence, being an awesome hippie, believed the root of this undiscovered word to be love.
One of the most interesting IdeaChannel videos in a while, really like this one
I enjoy thinking of native language as a fatherland. I am a native Northern California speaker. I went to Italy for a few months recently and found that even though I could understand literally every word my British companions spoke I felt an intense and instant camaraderie with the people I met who were from California. It was peaceful in a way that reminded me that British English is not my English. I didn't notice the difference until I heard a Californian speak.
As a polyglot speaking five languages with true mastery in one of them I can confirm that each language alters, or to be more precise, enriches your perception of reality. You become subconsciously more aware of the cultural cues in other people's behaviors. You get to understand the mindset of different people with each language acquired, you develop new problem-solving skills and a more generalized understanding of human nature as you - simply put - pick up more of the world's noise than someone with command of their mother tongue only would. Bonus: each language you master allows you to take a figurative further step back to examine yourself. Great episode!
P.S.: I'm Hungarian :)
I find I'm recognizing more and more of the albums on your wall, as I listen to more music. I've got three or four now.
what i find interesting here is the fact that as a native german speaker i grew up with the word schadenfreude. it was a natural and logical thing in my world. but because i learned another language (hint hint it was english) i was able to understand that radical and completley diffrent worldview of yours in wich it is surprising to see a word for that feeling. language is like a key the opens new ways of thinking about the world, thats why i think its actually needed for every person on the planet to learn a language with his native one too. it helps foster understanding and knowing what other people feel(theres a word for it in english but i cant remember it now).
Well. English has a word for Schadenfreude. It's "schadenfreude". I've seen it in the wild ;-)
This hinges too much on Sapir-Whorf for my liking. Linguistic determinism ("language restricts thought") is dismissed by modern linguists and the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in particular was shredded to pieces (because the assumptions that inspired it where wrong). Today, linguistic relativism ("language influence thought") is debated among scientists. Proving and measuring the effects is a difficult task, but consensus among linguists seems, that if there is an effect, it's not that big.
It's also worth pointing to loglan and lojban, both are constructed languages designed to test sapir-whorf.
About the languages vs. dialects thing: The real world does not always fit neatly into categories. And I think the premise is off, because of that. It makes no difference if what I speak is called a dialect or a language in everyday life. I just speak it. Socio-political labels might determine how many people end up speaking my dialect and how people feel about it ( "prestige dialects" vs. others). But ultimately, the label alone does not change who I am or with whom I identify.
Speaking more English ultimately changed some of my ways to think and my ideas of the world. But not because of english itself, but the doors it opened. For example: I can watch PBSIdeachannel, participate in Reddit-debates about linguistics and fully understand that Metallica song that was mostly gibberish for me just 10 years ago.
Also, if this ends up on /r/badlinguistics: Hi folks! I hope I got everything right :-)
Outside of the fascinating subject matter, the sheer volume of awesome movie and tv clips has me nerding out. Great vid.
Oh God, this is _so me_. I'm really happy you talk about this, because this is exactly how I experience language.
A video to surpass Metal Gear.
My favorite Metal Gear memory/ story comes from my job as a high school English teacher.
A few years ago, one of our homecoming theme days was Celebrity Day. Kanyes and Mileys abounded, but one of my favorite students (with moderate Asperger's syndrome) showed up in full camo and spent most of the day sneaking (as best he could--he was 6" tall, 200 lbs easy) around the hallways and classrooms.
Between classes, I complimented him on his Solid Snake outfit. He grinned and said, "Wait, let me show you the best part" before darting into a classroom.
I shouldn't have been surprised with a full-sized refrigerator box lumbered into the corridor and plopped down beside me.
Trying to silence laughter, I said aloud, "Huh. Guess Thomas disappeared, because now I certainly can't see him," and walked off. True to character, the fridge box waddled down the hallway to algebra.
Good episode. I'm glad someone is bringing this subject up. MGSV is a fine game, and its themes are very interesting, although the game bit of way too much than it could chew. Fortunately, there's people like you who research it a little further and spark a discussion.
BRILLIANT.
Just to start up with the amazing part, you managed to explain one of the key themes of MGSV in a minute without it being confusing.
Although I'd like to mention something that wasn't really important for this video but for Skull-Face's character and his objective, the reason he starting developing these parasites was also partially because of a man known as "Zero" his former boss and the founder of the organization called Cipher, Cipher wants to use the english language to create a unified world where information is being handled as context by A.Is...machines. Big Boss and Skull-Face are both against a world that is controlled by 4 A.I computers which censor and create context for the people, Big Boss believes the world can only be unified if the conflicts don't contain superpowers like the USA and Russia but a series of perpetual small conflicts that couldn't ever end in nuclear war or world war, he wanted to show the world that war was very much a part of us and since we can't get rid of it, we should work with it. He was the sort of "Big Brother" of war while Zero was the "Big Brother" of information. A large part of the language theme in MGSV was centered around the legend of Big Boss, he is a world famouse soldier and hero who has saved it a couple of times, people know him for that, he has become a literal legend, with true and false stories of his past spreading around, he says "Real heroes are never as polished as the legends that surround them". In MGSV TPP you are the head of the Diamond Dogs, soldiers of different ethnicities, cultures, who speak different languages, had different political agendas... Yet they all work together, because of a man they know as Big Boss. Language is something that we take for granted, but we often forget that language is man made, MGSV plays around with the theme a lot, it is the core of the major plot-twist. Legends can surpass the people they surround, we as the player know why we want revenge but on a neutral perspective, the world sees the Diamond Dogs as corrupted war mongers who only work for money. We see the words "Diamond Dogs" and different people have different concepts in their head on what these words mean, and that is something that fuels the conflicts spoken of in the game. The character of Eli hates his father, Big Boss, with a passion... He is the product of the greatest soldier of the 20th century and is being used for war, he is basically an insurance if Big Boss dies, he is sort of his replacement. That's why Eli acts so rebellious when on Mother Base, they force him to use his name "Eli" which was given to him by Zero, who uses him for war, Eli is not allowed to pick his own name or future. Almost every character has this kind of problem in the game, where their names get surrounded by myths...
Finally, if you haven't beaten TPP yet, don't read the following lines
*SPOILER ALERT*
*SPOILER ALERT*
*SPOILER ALERT*
*SPOILER ALERT*
The final twist in MGSV is that the truth behind the man we play is very much in line with that we see throughout the game, we haven't been playing as THE Big Boss, we are a man that went through plastic surgery and mental psychosis to be shaped into a decoy Big Boss. The game tells us that what we have done wasn't because we were Big Boss, but because we were ourselves, the avatar you create at the beginning turns out to be the original face Punished Venom Snake had. The real Big Boss uses us as a decoy for the world to see, to spread the legends of a man known as "Big Boss" so that the real Boss can build his nation of soldiers in Africa. We are the final twist in the game.
Glad to see you plugging Errant Signal. I stumbled upon it a while back and it's pretty great. It needs more love.
too early, no subtitles :(
Underrated comment
+AvramSMH Ah, that's what's missing. I like subtitles, I can't always listen fast enough to keep up with him, if that makes sense.
Scix i know that feel
+AvramSMH The auto cc by youtube keeps thinking it's 'school' face.
+AvramSMH add to that being a non native english speaker (that's well said? I mean, English is not my mother tongue)
I often pause to read things on screen or I rewind a little if I didn't catch some word or phrase
Thank you for adding some more context to something I've been thinking about since I beat the game back in October, Mike.
So, my thoughts on MGSV's theme of language relate particularly to the way language can be used as a tool to control the masses and the way words are related to abstract concepts kind of in the same way that newspeak works in 1984. Because throughout the rest of the series, speech is censored by nanomachines to remove certain phrases from people's vocabulary like "The Patriots".
And in this game in particular without spoiling too much if you or anyone else hasnt reached the true ending yet, but the idea is applied in a very similar way to the entire identity of one of the main cast members.
The thumbnail for this video is pure class. Mike, you're a legend.
This video was very eye opening. But on an unrelated note, when are you going to make a new idea channel playlist thingy with more music videos? That was really awesome.
A video about Language as a virus and no mention of Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash? For those who are not familiar, it is a cyberpunk novel about a hacker who stumbles upon a computer virus that uses human language to program people. The book points out how language and its effect on learning (or infection of information, if you will) have some strong parallels to a computer virus as well as actual viruses. I'm not sure how much I buy into all that but it's a neat idea. Definitely a recommended read, especially if you like cyberpuck, like Shadowrun. :)
My favorite "oh, I didn't know there was a word for that"-word is L'esprit de L'escalier ("Spirit of the Stairs" in French). From what I understand, it's when you have that moment where you think of the perfect comeback to an argument far too late after it has been taken place.
Isn't Skullface's goal that the same judgement from the story on Tower of Babel?
this episode blew my mind. thank you. this sort of lends even more credibility towards the concept of someone being a "citizen of the internet". we basically have our own armies and borders and languages separate from conventional armies, borders and languages. we have access to a different set of information and hence our world views are potentially different. in 1984 Orwell postulates that the language and vocabulary available to a population warps their culture, mentality and perception of "reality". oh god. WHAT IS EVEN REALITY??????
Long time viewer, by far my favorite episode so far.
I do believe that languages helps shape the way in which you see the world, and this became pretty clear to me as a teenager once I'd become fluent in english as my second language, and being a native spanish speaker, which somehow created a kind of cognitive dissonance in some aspects I can't really put in words (a bit ironic). I believe anyone who is fluent in more than one language can relate to this feeling in some level, and can perhaps even relate to skull face somehow, depending on each person's circumstances.
The way language is used does offer a sense of community to me now that it did not when I was younger. A series of words possibly from different languages organized in a certain order can be meaningless to one person while linking you to others in powerful ways. This is especially true when discussing fandoms, politics, science etc... I have used language over the past few years to find my tribe so to speak and in doing so have found a homeland not in the nation-state sense but one that I identify with sometimes more fervently than I do as an American.
I can definitely see the logic in this argument. I was born in South Africa and originally spoke Afrikaans. I've lived in an English-speaking country since I was six and though I can understand Afrikaans, I cannot speak it. I have many Afrikaans speaking friends that have been here just as long as me but are still fluent. They always seem more in touch with their culture and I always wonder if their retained fluency of the language is a by-product of their strong connections to their home-country, or the cause.
Well, I was taught by my high school Spanish teacher that fluency in a language only starts when you learn to THINK in that language. So far I've found that this makes a lot of sense both because since thought is mostly abstract bursts of language and ideas you are becoming so comfortable with the language to speak it in your subconscious AND because you are learning to think as the speakers of that language do.
So yeah, I think that idea lends a bit more credence to the Language-as-a-Homeland idea.
I definitely think that the Radiolab episode on color and specifically the piece about The Odessy and the color blue is very applicable here. Not only are feelings lost due to lack of vocabulary, but colors, too.
I really enjoyed this episode. Perhaps because I relate to it. But wanted to say to the makers of the show, that I really enjoy all you're doing with the channel and thanks for your hard work. This ep was my first time leaving a thoughtful response (see below) and it's made me realise I really should have contributed to the discussion before now. I have lots more thoughts on it but instead I'm gonna dive through the comments to see what others are saying
Personally, I saw the title 'is language a virus' and found that it fit perfectly with my own experiences of language. I was raised bilingual, living in Brazil in my formative years with a Brazilian father and an Irish mother - until we moved to Northern Ireland when I was 5 years old. I was immediately bullied for being different, I declared that I no longer spoke Portuguese, didn't understand what my father said and I have paid for it ever since. If we put that in the context of this video - moving to an English speaking country killed my ability to speak what had been my mother tongue since I had started learning to talk. English went from being my second language to my first (and only) language. I have since regained the ability to UNDERSTAND Portuguese after listening to my parents speak it for over 20 years, but I lack the grammar and vocabulary banks to actually form more than the most basic of sentences.
I then studied Korean and Japanese in university and I noticed that as I became more proficient in the languages I was studying, I began to forget words in English. So now my brain is a mishmash of four languages, none of which I speak particularly well (esp considering I have a Northern Irish accent, which is unintelligible to some) and I find that I THINK in the last language I heard someone else speaking, eg; if I watch a Korean tv show, I will start thinking in Korean, if I hear Japanese speakers, I start thinking in Japanese.
Wonderful video with excellent points all around. I think Skull Face is wrong about English; there's nothing about the nature of the language that makes it more conducive to colonialism or imperialism, any more than Spanish, Russian, Arabic, Chinese,, Latin or any other language spoken by a large empire. As you said, English supplanting the languages of colonized cultures is a symptom of globalization and not a characteristic of the language itself. However, I wonder if Wittgenstein's concept of the language game might be appropriate for the discussion? English as a whole may not be built for imperialism, but within English we can construct a series of words, aphorisms, and easily invoked arguments that may create a "language" of imperialism, a "language" of colonialism or a "language" of militarism. You can see it in politics - how a conservative candidate might overuse the word "family," or a liberal candidate might lean on "the middle class" and how both would invoke "the people" constantly. Language may not always capture the complete spectrum of lived reality, as per your Schadenfreude example, but depending on how readily some words and aphorisms are to you, it may shape your ability to articulate lived reality, depending on what language game you play. That game might be a better understanding of the "virus" of language than Skull Face's deterministic reading.
As a Romanian, I am so happy and impressed you pronounced Emil Cioran's last name properly!
As a linguist, I was shocked to see how accurately this depicts sociolinguistic ideas of language and identity. It's so rare that anyone outside the field bothers to think about language critically!
This is a really fascinating video and I think I might need some time to think about it more. I'm a language major itself, so these kinds of questions came up a lot in our upper division classes in considering particular focuses on our language learning post-graduation or even jobs or simply being able to understand people from different parts of the target country.
In particular though, I think it's kind of interesting that all of this came from Kojima because Japan itself has a very interesting linguistic history and set of dialects. For myself, my target language that I learned was Japanese as well and as an aside, I am trying to get better at it to use it more practically in a work setting, which in itself can be difficult because you can learn a language, but levels of fluency really vary so much that a regular person who hasn't learned a language can't possibly understand. When you start on the journey of learning a new language though, you really begin to understand the idea of how language is conceptually your father country or father tongue because it's your brain's base 0. Before moving on, I do have to comment that this wording of "father tongue" or "father language" is actually super interesting too because the Japanese word for native language is actually "haha go" or "mother language" so the conceptual translation of this whole thing is fascinating as well in terms of the story and how it relates to the characters and their lives since the emphasis is more on fathers, but that's maybe an idea for another day.
When you pick up a new language though, after learning the basics and grammar and skills that can help you to dynamically learn in the future, what you're left with is learning vocabulary. Vocabulary for a second language learner is limited based on what you have experience talking about. Like in school, they maybe give you projects where you learn how to order food at a restaurant and while maybe you learn all of the words for that and you can get by just fine if you go to Japan, knowing things like that don't mean that you can carry on a conversation about say flowers or gardening because you've never encountered the vocabulary for gardening before even in passing in Japanese. When you're a native speaker though, you don't really notice that you passively picked up a lot of vocabulary you would need to talk about gardening even if maybe you didn't know the specific name for the tools or the flowers, you have a wider range of vocabulary to use to at least be able to describe something. If you're a second language learner, you don't even necessarily have that, so until you get to a certain level someone faced with that kind of situation basically can only respond with silence.
Japanese, however, has some cheats to it which is with katakana, and that's an alphabet that is strictly used for foreign words and most often these days, English or words derived from English. Katakana itself has a history where in the past it used to be used more for official court documents, but in terms of modern standardization it came to be used to express foreign words. I suppose linguistically it was easier than the Sinified kanji that Chinese typically use or just using the English word. That language cheat though is something that infiltrates a lot of modern Japanese and is in one sense a cultural problem where modern Japanese are starting to use more katakana-ized words in popular culture and everyday speak than the actual word in Japanese. If you look at it from that perspective you can start to see how the idea of English as a virus derives from a distinctly Japanese viewpoint and sensibility. I mean, English there is often used as a fashionable or trendy thing that we often hear about on clothes and stationary and stuff that make absolutely no sense that spawn things like Engrish.com. Us native English speakers laugh at them for sure, but also what does it mean when the Japanese language because dilluted with English words in lyrics and everyday use? This problem is also exacerbated by technology where it's a more known and common problem that remembering how to write kanji on paper is a struggle since most modern communication is with computers and devices and those items will automatically pop up the kanji that you want, so as long as you have a vague memory of what it looks like, you don't need to remember how to write it. If you try to make a handwritten note though, there's a number of people who forget the stroke count or what the specific radical for that character is and that's a problem even for native speakers and I believe in a report by one of the Prime Ministers at one point they had the wrong kanji by mistake. When you have those levels of problems it can kind of be easy to understand how the story ideas from Metal Gear may have developed.
Furthermore, I think we also have to consider the way the English language functions in terms of how it's used and how other languages and cultures are incorporated into it. In terms of etymology, we have a number of words that derive from other languages like French or Spanish and today even a few from Japanese, but the English language itself or at least how it's used by English speakers is a really asshole entitled language. While it may borrow or derive terms from other languages, the pronunciation is hardly ever kept. English speakers instead of learning HOW the word is actually spoken in the original language and incorporating that into use, they pronounce it however they damn well feel like it and just say "THIS IS HOW WE PRONOUNCE IT ENGLISH." That kind of attitude kind of makes English a jerk language. I mean, for Japanese borrowed words, we have emoji, anime, and manga for instance. Emoji probably one of the most ubiquitous these days, but everyone in English pronounces it "EE-MOH-JEE" even though in Japanese it's "EH-MOH-JEE". We don't learn from other people. We just decide on a pronunciation and then STICK TO IT LIKE STUBBORN JERKS because we have a really entitled attitude about language. In contrast, other countries and other languages including Japanese try to pronounce foreign words as close to the original as possible. Katakana also serves that purpose in order to try to phonetically break down the source word to something that Japanese can pronounce, but it still takes a lot of consideration of the source language. They don't just slap a name on it and call it a day. This kind of thinking can most easily be seen by the names given to other countries. Like in English, it's even kind of a bit offensive that we call Japan "Japan" because that's not what they call themselves. Japan is Nihon or Nippon. For Japanese at least there's kind of a etymological history that can be tracked back to the word "Nihon" in that the Southern Chinese/Cantonese pronunciation for the same characters is "yatpun" and early I believe Dutch traders were trading with Chinese traders and first heard about Japan from them. When they brought tales of the place back to Europe, they used their spelling which is I think like "Japon" or something with the J being a stand in for the Y sound in that language and not the J sound as we English speakers know it, but we took that and decided to pronounce it "the English way" so that it's even disconnected from the close Dutch pronunciation and even further removed from the original. In Japan on the other hand, the names of the countries that they give are related to what the people call themselves. One of the most difficult things for me to learn was the name for Germany because I hadn't realized before that Germany called itself Deutschland. In Japanese, Germany is called "Doitsu" in reference to the root of Deutsch from the name they call themselves. I mean, these are like differences for popular countries, but we also have this "slap a name on it" problem when it comes to northern native tribes like the "Inuits" and other people that we colloquially call "eskimos" and name problems in general and ignorance about "Native Americans" or "First People". The way we use language to talk about other people is often rather reductive and inconsiderate instead of being open and accepting.
Lastly, all of that and the use of English, I think can also be used in comparison to the development of Japanese as a modern language. Dialects in Japan do exist as well, but some of them are pretty different similar to Wenzhounese. Like Okinawan and Kansai-ben are specialized fields of linguistic study for Japanese and can be quite different. Osaka-ben is even a bit different from what's becoming standardized in Kansai-ben. Japanese itself as a standardized modern language focuses quite a bit more on the Japanese spoken in Tokyo since it's the capital as of the time it was being standardized during the Meiji Period. Standardization was an important part of modernizing Japan after it ended its isolation because it provided legitimacy to the outside world and helped to open the doors for diplomacy with other nations. Having a standardized language was imperative for a developed nation and so standardizing the language was a huge amount of change that happened in the country that increased literacy for all Japanese students significantly and brought about national communication within just about 50 years time (or even less) where previously it was limited only to the rich and a bit more difficult to travel about the country and communicate. The Kansai area though, is still somewhat unchanged though which is why Kansai Japanese has become a specialization, but at least the standard is there and exists to be a common form of communication outside of the dialect. Dialects though are still quite important and for voice actors they have that denoted on their profile pages at their talent agencies that they can speak a certain dialect. But even with the standardization, what a lot of us overseas don't realize is that a lot of Tokyo programming that airs in other parts of the country get aired with Japanese subtitles as "closed captions" so that you can read the standard Japanese because dialects still exist. This was a revelation for us as well in one of my upper division courses and our instructor asked us why they would need it. Sure it helps for the hearing impaired and such, but it's because it also serves the function of allowing understanding between different regions of the country.
This is pretty much all the thoughts I have on this right now. It's such an interesting topic though that I think I need to contemplate more on it too.
Igor Korzun
From your example, it kind of sounds like any language/culture that historically felt itself to be a world power or dominant in some way seems to have that entitlement built into their language. Chinese I would kind of understand since it was kind of the center for a lot of cultural development in Asia, so perhaps that language entitlement comes from, "Meh, everyone else bows to us."
Also, as an FYI to anyone else, I do have Chinese heritage too, so I have some language experience with it, but more on the Cantonese side. Chinese gets a lot more complicated when you start going into the dialects. The development of Mandarin I can't really speak to, but there's a country split there even with Mandarin as the official language. Dialects are typically similar to either Mandarin or Cantonese and Cantonese is more similar to classical Chinese. All that said though, the Cantonese that my grandma used when she talked about people from other cultures was actually kind of racist and I didn't know until I got older and talked to other Chinese people. When I was little those were the only words I heard, so I thought that's what they were called. Although for slurs, linguistically the words my grandma used kind of also seem to be notes of showing more of the fear of them and their capabilities, which is kind of interesting from the perspective of a vulnerable peasant.
A counterpoint to this that I found really interesting in MGSV was that (in the audio cassettes) Code Talker actually lays out an alternate evolutionary theory of language altogether, which ties the vocal chord parasites to the LITERAL evolution of human speech - basically that in symbiosis with us, the vocal chord parasite guided our vocal chords through selection to be more beneficial to it, which in turn strengthened our ability to share culture and build civilization itself.
I think this is an important balancing counterpoint in the game for understanding its thematic center. At least in the West, but I'd hazard a guess elsewhere too, we most often associate the word 'parasite' (and thus concept, or maybe visa versa?) with a lot of negative associations - biological disease or social undesirables - but parasites aren't fundamentally destructive. Human digestion, as Code Talker mentions, is only possible through symbiosis with microbial organisms living inside us. And the game shows parasites doing miraculous things, saving and enriching human lives as much as utterly destroying them. SkullFace, however, has in fact internalized this Western connotation (through being "infected" by English, as he would put it) and can only see parasites as negative, as disease - while Code Talker, who has been able to maintain his own linguistic identity, sees across these distinctions. Though they both rely on the parasites to live, one has found balance, while the other is at war with himself and the world.
So taking this into account, I'd say MGSV's main message is to inspire finding true symbiosis in and between languages (and thus, our global human reality of nations, ethnicities, religions, etc) - and ultimately true 'peace', which is the oft-stated goal of the series' characters over many games.
7:18 we do have a parallel and it's called sadism. It isn't perfectly synonymous but they both derive from the concept of pleasure deriving from the pain of others.
There was a study that suggested that thinking in a different language than you speak can actually help you make better decisions. So it seems to be true that language does somehow affect the way you think.
First of all, I want to tell you how much I love the Idea Channel!
Second, once there are many language theories, I want to point the perspective my research group, here in Brazil, follows.
Based on philosophers as Foucault and Derrida, we may say that at the same time a language creates who we are, we create it too. It' not a one way road. It's through language that the use power and we tell about the world. If you want to know more about it, search for some texts about the french perspective of discourse analysis.
I think my favorite thing about this channel is how fast you talk. I keep trying to watch Vsauce videos, but he just talks sooo slowly, it drives me crazy.
Keep being awesome!
William S. Burroughs: "this is not an allegorical comparison!"
*proceeds to make an allegorical comparison*
10:30 Did you buy a pre-dandruff-ed shirt?
question for any gundam experts around here relating to said topic:
the Gundam 00 moive thing where 00 quanta and flower was in.
in order to communicate to the ''aliens'' the had to use something complicated.... what was it again? and what was it?
This reminds me a lot of CGP grey's video on thought-germs. If we say language is an idea, it would fit neatly into that category, and both of these arguments would compliment each other nicely.
thanks for this episode, one of the best in a long while IMO (not that any of them were bad). I know it's old, but MGS2 is a deep deep well of incredibly thought provoking and relevant ideas about both media and... everything else? perceptions and indoctrination? the nature of reality? democracy and censorship and MEMES? it could make a hell of an idea channel episode, to be sure.
What about created languages, like Esperanto?
I think an interesting thing to note that there’s a lot of dispute about this idea that your language influences the way you think (which I believe linguists call Neo-Whorfianism).
Think about causality. Does language determine the way people think or is it the other way around? Which, for example, makes more sense: an isolated tribe has no word for “clothes” because they’re naked or that they’re naked because they have no word for clothes?
To stick with the terminology, this critique would imply that culture is the virus and language merely a symptom. This, to me, makes a lot more sense, especially as an explanation for stuff like dialects.
0:05 well, that depends, is your time now?
Somehow the picture of Ren holding his bulging head while a fire rages behind him is not enough to convey how mind blown I am right now.
did you know that in Denmark we have a word for that warm and fussy feeling you have wen you sit down with a hot drink wen you come from the cold outside, its that comfy feeling that you now so well from you're childhood.
WHERE DID YOU GO AFTER YOU PICKED THE BOX UP?!
I think at times this video strayed into strong linguistic determinism (which has little scientific support) compared to weak linguistic determinism (which is where the field stands now). Great video, very interesting!
I'm just now realizing that I'd enjoy an Idea Channel discussion of Pontypool.
Have you ever watched "Pontypool"? It's a Canadian horror movie that explores this idea quite literally. It's pretty good y'all should check it out.
0:15 What is a dropbox and can I hide in it?
I definitely agree that speaking a different language changes you. I lived in Japan for a number of years, and any time I speak or think in Japanese it's like I become a different person.
Coming back to this video because I love the topic, but the William S Burroughs thing is sort of interesting because in MGSV the tapes from Codetalker go on about how language isn't a VIRUS, it's a SYMBIOSIS. The Vocal Cord Parasites became symbiotic with certain apes and in doing so encouraged us to create complex languages (which in turn gave humanity the ability to become the dominant species). When the VCP died out, we still kept the languages.
So it's a bit more optimistic a version of "language is a virus from outer space".
Having been born in England yet growing up in Costa Rica, i can say that there is some validity to the concept of language as my 'fatherland'. There is something of a permanent change in my English accent that marks me as foreign to any English person who hears it.
Well this is eerie. I happen to be writing my final research paper this week on linguistic relativity, the overarching theory that effectively encapsulates ideas like linguistic determinism. I guess the only substantive thing I can add to this idea after all my research would be the fact that, despite all our experimentation and research on this theory, no one has found any conclusive data on exactly how much language effects our cognition. Like, language scholars since the 1970's definitely agree it changes our perceptions but in what ways and how much is still up in the air. So it could be largely inconsequential, but this gap in our knowledge only becomes more pressing as the world gets more globalized, old languages die out, and English inches closer and closer to being the global language. It should be noted that speakers of English the world over are trying to adapt and change it for their own uses so perhaps it won't be nearly as culturally destructive as Mr. Skull Face says it is but measuring the effects of linguistic relativity so that we can understand what effect global languages could/would have on people is still a very real concern. Anyway, fantastically serendipitous video Mike!
For more words for unnamed feelings, check out The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows. Quite excellent.
My grandfather speaks fluent Spanish and will speak it any chance he gets, and thus despite living in America for the past 48 years, he see's himself as Spanish. However I do not know the language with like he does, my language is English, and thus I feel more American. In fact in an attempt to become more in tune with my ethnicity I tried to learn to speak fluent Spanish. So I think there is something to be said about language, and what it means to the individual, because no matter how good at Spanish I get, I still think in English, my first language, and it changes even the way I speak Spanish.
Currently reading Etymologicon by Mark Forsyth (& loving every second of it) & I gotta say that knowing the origin of words gives very decisive support to the Idea of viral language... but also kinda undermines it... I'm dancing around the details 'cause I don't want to spoil it....
this game had such an amazing potential to explore these ideas, shame it hardly did.
Discussing Orwell here would fit well. The book has a strong linguistic determination plot.
Wasn't snow crash along the same lines?
I always assumed dialects were the beginnings of new languages / language splits, in the same way breeds are the beginnings of new species / speciation.
I felt uncofortable when he clarified that he is not spying on us. Like, where the idea even came from, why do you need to ensure me you're not spying on me? DO YOU SPY ON ME?!!
In my life, my language surely shapes the way that I think and the way that I feel. I often find myself describing my feelings with "there are no words..." or "words cannot describe..." My language limits me from conveying myself fully to other people so that they may empathize with me, but it also limits me from truly understanding my own feelings. It seems ridiculous to me, but my inability to come up with a word to describe a feeling means that I am forces to put that particular experience into a mental box labeled "indescribable," rather than putting it in a more complex and fleshed out box in which my experience might be fully realized. Because of this, my language is my fatherland. It has nurtured me and given me a mind only capable of experiencing infinite emotions in a finite way.
I'm surprised you talked about language being a virus but didn't talk about the film PontyPool. Were in understanding the concept someone expresses with words spreads a zombie virus. (Its been a while since I've seen this movie. I could be miss remembering it.)
Guy Deutscher's book "Through the Language Glass" has some interesting insight on language informing perception.
No mention of Snow Crash?
6:26 my wife is Russian and we've had an argument about the color blue! Watching this blew my mind as I finally understood why!
The game sort of addresses the idea that your language is your fatherland in Code Talker.
He goes on in conversations with Code Talker to express that the DIne are immune to all strains of the virus. Which I personally read as Kojima's rather hidden point that while English is the 'language of America' the Navajo, and original Americans are immune to this problem.
I guess for me, language is very much home, or my strongest connection to home. I immigrated to Australia when I was 8, and in the 11 years I've been here, I've only been back once. I don't remember most of my family and the ones I do, I remember vaguely. Legally I'm not really tied to my home country as it doesn't allow for dual citizenship. In addition, growing up here, I've gotten used to being the only person from my country (until recently).
So for me, my language is the strongest connection I have to home as it still connects me to the music more intimately, jokes, history, people and family when I do talk to them on occasion. There are memories tied with my language some that were buried so deep within, that I didn't even know they were still there until they were triggered.
I think it's important that I not only continue to maintain my ability to speak it, but i have to speak it so well and so fluently, that's it's like I never left. To me, If start to lose it, then I'll lose what's left of my cultural ties, and bits of myself might be lost to me completely as well.
God I love watching you guys, I love how you all make me think, you all make my thought processes go strange and interesting places. Thank you.
Mike!
any comments on Lacan's concept of language as the structure of the psique?
language as a "place"?
i'm too tired to expand upon this, its very late in Brazil (in my own language its spelled with an S: Brasil) i hope you can make a good enough parallel
I was born in Ireland but left as a ten year old and spent 5 years in Australia, 4 in the Netherlands (in an American English school) and now live in the UK. I am basically monolingual in English, but my accent is incredibly muddled. It is basically impossible for anybody to pin "where I'm from" down by hearing me speak.
I suppose from this perspective I have a bias towards interpreting language as a facilitator of communication, and an instrument of understanding, rather than a cage restricting thought and imagination. My path has made me a very different person to the friends I had as a child who still live in Ireland. It seems to me that the development of a global lingua franca would more than make up for loss of diversity, by creating a way to share experiences that would incommunicable otherwise.
Our experiences are based upon so much more than just the language you speak, and even if we were to all end up speaking one language, what we would lose in cultural variety, our heightened capacity to share, cooperate and understand each other would compensate.
From somebody who has lost their identifying dialect, but gained a platform of understanding far beyond just Ireland, that's how it has worked out in my life.
I'm a Brazilian, and the fact we speak Portuguese is not only of the major aspects that define our nationality, I would say its the most important, both on a cultural level and historic one.
One of the reasons language is such a defining characteristics of our nationality is in part the fact that we are the only country in the Americas that speaks Portuguese, so much so, that probably the greatest insult you can say to a Brazilian is to think we speak Spanish. But also that Brazilian society has a high degree of miscegenation between its ethnic groups and the Portuguese language was what united the country as a whole. This unification by language was so powerful and ubiquitous that even for a country of our size there is almost no dialectic difference between the regions.
You should do a follow up, tying these concepts in to Neal Stephensons' Snow Crash. To wit, that language is the operating system for the human brain.