My problem with Neil Gaiman

Поділитися
Вставка
  • Опубліковано 25 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 767

  • @alastairdaivis1241
    @alastairdaivis1241 2 роки тому +1081

    Part of what I love about Gaiman’s writing is that it encourages this idea that there is magic in the mundane. His stories work for me because the amount of time (and more importantly, thought) spent on each character gives each of them a “bigger on the inside” feeling. There’s a sense of beauty and love for the world that he evokes in a way that I don’t think a story that I don’t think a story that stayed directly on the plot could.
    For another example, consider games like The Witcher series or Mass Effect (2 and 3 especially). The main plot is fine, but the game really shines in the vignettes and side missions. They’re less about knowing, and more about internalising and marinating in the world, and the experience of playing the game is stronger for having them.

    • @Duiker36
      @Duiker36 2 роки тому +29

      Yeah. Calling Gaiman a "character writer" isn't really quite capturing what's going on. It's more that Gaiman is a milieu writer, and some characters are milieux.

    • @justmanbunisfine
      @justmanbunisfine 2 роки тому +6

      Is that a reference to the doctor who episode "the doctor's wife", written by Neil Gaiman?

    • @inmybestdaysidontdocrack
      @inmybestdaysidontdocrack 2 роки тому +6

      This is why I love Gaiman as a writer, his writing genuinely fills something in my hearts.

    • @briankeys5941
      @briankeys5941 Рік тому +2

      to the channel voice, Gaiman is a tool now, but bro, THEY DID COME BACK. the tree, shadows death and rebirth. his wife in the halls of the dead and dude helping her with the feather scales Egyptian death life deal. DID YOU READ THE BOOK lol. anyway i do agree with u on the stretching that part out in the Egyptian funeral home deal.

    • @carwashgirl3541
      @carwashgirl3541 5 місяців тому

      Giving TARDIS energy ❤

  • @groofay
    @groofay 2 роки тому +1088

    I feel like Neil Gaiman is a very "loose" author, where he just lets his imagination go on whatever it wants. He is a brilliant author, and he knows where he wants to go, but he'll take his sweet time getting there, for better or worse.

    • @moonleafteaofthemonth
      @moonleafteaofthemonth 2 роки тому +46

      I agree. He's definitely one of those authors that just seems to have a wellspring of ideas and doesn't let much if anything confine him, if that makes sense.

    • @mistared4021
      @mistared4021 2 роки тому +51

      If he wasn't so great at telling mundane things in very interesting ways this would be a much bigger problem imo.
      In anansi boys he spends like a whole page describing why Charles is called fat Charlie and I remember thinking how awesome it is that he's making me interested in listening/ reading about something so inane.

    • @grandsome1
      @grandsome1 2 роки тому +9

      That's why I think his comic run is probably his best medium. Comics land themselves well to episodic and anthologic storytelling.

    • @Skinniest_Kween
      @Skinniest_Kween 2 роки тому +8

      As should all writers be.

    • @wickedarctiinae4132
      @wickedarctiinae4132 2 роки тому +9

      "He'll take his sweet time getting there", awesome, I would do the same.

  • @kenbrandon6434
    @kenbrandon6434 2 роки тому +552

    Neil Gaiman has a bit of an “older style”. He’s more of a storyteller than a novelist. Just listen to him talk or narrate an audiobook. He also seems to be very influenced by various mythologies, which are written as short collections of stories/lessons, set in a defined “universe”. There will be stories within stories, all under a longer story arc. I’ve always described The Sandman as a modern day mythology. Comic books, in general, are done similarly. Stephen King’s books are very long, longer than the movies themselves, because he adds in some much other information and character development that is often cut out of movies to streamline them.

    • @MamaGator
      @MamaGator 2 роки тому +3

      How I see him too. He does so well on a stage

    • @richstoehr3247
      @richstoehr3247 2 роки тому +4

      I love how you can see Gaiman's influences over the years. He steeped himself in Japanese culture while translating the English version of 'Princess Mononoke' and it shows up in a lot of his other work around that time, including 'The Dream Hunters,' the stand-alone Sandman graphic novel illustrated by a Japanese artist. He's just endlessly curious and puts all that curiosity into his work.

  • @rush4in
    @rush4in 2 роки тому +676

    It's really interesting because what you consider a drawback, I think is the best part about books - these overly detailed rabbit holes that ultimately go nowhere/serve no purpose in the plot. They are what make the world feel lived in, otherwise it's just a connection of tropes and neatly concluded character arcs. Also, one of the reasons that I love when authors kill off characters (if thye do it well) in the middle of their arc.
    I am a worldbuilder first though so I guess I have different expectations from media

    • @Romalac
      @Romalac 2 роки тому +33

      I've finally found someone else with the same mindset!

    • @LadyAneh
      @LadyAneh 2 роки тому +17

      I completely agree!

    • @evilcoffeemug5605
      @evilcoffeemug5605 2 роки тому +21

      as someone who still hasn't read these books, I kinda found his criticism made me more interested for this exact reason

    • @FelisImpurrator
      @FelisImpurrator 2 роки тому +13

      I think these are good when they're fun. And always better than plot contrivance to force things to work out the way the author needs them to.

    • @zenithquasar9623
      @zenithquasar9623 2 роки тому +9

      When you have ADHD, it gets frustrating at times because you panic over you struggling to tie things together in your head.

  • @rmsgrey
    @rmsgrey 2 роки тому +390

    The key to Sandman is that it was originally released as a monthly comic book running for 75 issues - and is technically a part of the DC universe. So it's caught between the expectation of running long and the intention to tell a story; between constant immediate deadlines and the long wait for the next part. It's not the single polished tale that might have been produced if the whole were conceived as such and reworked and edited into its finished form with full knowledge and time to work.
    The seemingly isolated Dream of a Thousand Cats is an odd choice of example of a standalone story within the series - it pays off in a big way in the much later prequel, Overture (2013-5). However, the point, that the series is more of an anthology of thematically linked story arcs (with recurring characters) than a single coherent narrative, still holds true.

    • @turtleanton6539
      @turtleanton6539 2 роки тому +3

      Yes it does

    • @russellharrell2747
      @russellharrell2747 2 роки тому +9

      As the comic progressed I tended to enjoy the anthology stories more than the overall arcs, but I could still appreciate the whole after the last arc. Gaiman tied it up nicely.

    • @EmberLeo
      @EmberLeo 2 роки тому +4

      Yeah, the Sandman is more of an anthology than an epic single story.

    • @HubertMotleyJr
      @HubertMotleyJr 2 роки тому +5

      I came here to say this. Now I'm here to say I agree with you.

    • @sanityisrelative
      @sanityisrelative 2 роки тому +2

      I think this is going to be the biggest issue with continuing the TV series. It's not presented as an anthology, like American Horror Story, so folks unfamiliar with the source material (or that didn't realize it's anthology nature) are expecting an cohesive narrative and get whiplash when they don't get that. You can see it in the reviews for the episode 24/7. People that get it, get it, and people that don't are confused why they focused a whole episode on people that don't seem to matter. I fear this reaction will impact Netflix and they'll cut it loose after this first season.

  • @princessthyemis
    @princessthyemis 2 роки тому +194

    I can kinda understand a story not meeting your expectations, and here's why I think that is: you might go in expecting plot- or character-heavy writing, but--in my opinion--Neil Gaiman's writing is 100 percent about TONE. Tone is king. If you don't vibe with that, it might be hard to get into his writing and why he writes the way he does. Just my thoughts. 😊😊

    • @LeilaAMMartin
      @LeilaAMMartin 2 роки тому +19

      I agree with you here. Neil's specialty is in setting a mood and creating an atmosphere, with a minor in exploring various mythologies. The characters are almost secondary, like he needs to have people in the world but only so he can have an excuse to tell a story set there. He's had commercial success, but his writing is definitely not in the model of traditionally successful commercial fiction---so if that's what you go in expecting, I can see how you'd be disappointed.

    • @lavenderbee423
      @lavenderbee423 2 роки тому +4

      This makes so much sense and I think will help me settle in and enjoy a Gaiman book better.

    • @sanityisrelative
      @sanityisrelative 2 роки тому +3

      @@lavenderbee423 also, I strongly recommend giving one of his collections of short stories a try. They're also all about tone and he does wonderful things in the short story format. My personal recommendation is to give Smoke and Mirrors a try. It's one I always go back to.

    • @spartanghost_17
      @spartanghost_17 Рік тому +1

      Lmao tone? Story telling is important lmao

  • @Feral_Badger
    @Feral_Badger 2 роки тому +146

    I haven't read any of Gaiman's adult books. But I really enjoyed The Graveyard book. It kind of just sat right for me at the time I read it.

    • @LadyAneh
      @LadyAneh 2 роки тому +9

      I absolutely love The Graveyard Book. One you might try (which one of my top 5 favorite books of all time is Neverwhere).

    • @hcstubbs3290
      @hcstubbs3290 2 роки тому +7

      If you're interested in his adult stuff, I think Neverwhere, Ocean at the End of the Lane, and Good Omens (also written by Pratchett) are the best imo. The Graveyard Book is amazing and a great one to have started with. Coraline is also great.

    • @serrasedai
      @serrasedai 2 роки тому +4

      The Graveyard Book, Anansi Boys, and Neverwhere are my favorites!

    • @juliamay8580
      @juliamay8580 2 роки тому +5

      Oh yeah, The Graveyard Book is amazing!

    • @omniscient.nescience
      @omniscient.nescience 2 роки тому +4

      I loved the Graveyard Book! Coraline and Neverwhere are my other favourites

  • @EmberLeo
    @EmberLeo 2 роки тому +879

    "The Sandman would have worked better as a collection of short stories" - That's exactly what it already is.

    • @kohhna
      @kohhna 2 роки тому +24

      Exactly...

    • @anonymous36247
      @anonymous36247 2 роки тому +81

      @@kohhna Came here to say this. Has twothefuture never heard of a comic book?!?!

    • @flaviacaribe4993
      @flaviacaribe4993 2 роки тому +28

      It might be, but that's not how it's marketed.

    • @schubertuk
      @schubertuk 2 роки тому +94

      @@flaviacaribe4993 Surely, it _was_ exactly how it was marketed, and released? We only got a small vignette issued to us at regular intervals for a good many years. It is only the recent omnibus editions that suggest/imply a single story that is muddying the issue.

    • @nadiamayer11
      @nadiamayer11 2 роки тому +5

      That's what I was thinking

  • @jackbharucha1475
    @jackbharucha1475 4 місяці тому +57

    Well now people have a very different problem

  • @lucasmilone5902
    @lucasmilone5902 2 роки тому +98

    My favorite Gaiman book was Neverwhere, I loved the mythology and atmosphere of the world he created. I feel like it also doesn’t have the large plot promises that you mentioned for American Gods, which is great.

    • @nualaseamus
      @nualaseamus 2 роки тому +2

      Same here!! Loved that book.

    • @Golmov_the_Wretched
      @Golmov_the_Wretched 2 роки тому +4

      Neverwhere was fabulous, as was Good Omens. I could never get I to American God's personally though.

    • @lucasmilone5902
      @lucasmilone5902 2 роки тому +2

      @@Golmov_the_Wretched Good Omens is great too! While I liked American Gods, I couldn’t get into it in the same way, like you said. If you haven’t read it, The Ocean At The End Of The Lane is another great Gaiman book, pretty short too.

    • @brycejensen6946
      @brycejensen6946 Рік тому

      My favorite too!

  • @NunyaBiznessss
    @NunyaBiznessss 2 роки тому +130

    I've read American Gods and Coraline and loved them both. AG was fascinating, even when it meandered. I often felt tired while reading it, but never bored. I could really imagine what Shadow was going through. And my God, the atmosphere and the prose are gorgeous. I don't think he's the type of author I'd like to be, but nevertheless I adore his works.

  • @AutumnsFlameDances
    @AutumnsFlameDances 2 роки тому +268

    Tim, you mentioned a few times reading and thinking 'i need to remember this' or 'this will be important' - that's the wrong mindset for Gaiman's work. It's about the journey not the destination, finding magic in what's normally mundane and lettings your imagination take control. That's why so many of his children's books are huge hits. If something is in the story it's usually for tone (as someone else commented), not as a puzzle piece for later. If you're reading his work wanting twists or looking for storyline bullet points instead of just enjoying the ride then you're going to have a bad time. If that's what you like then maybe he isn't the author for you and that's fine.
    However a lot of your book suggestions over the years have aligned with my own, so i suggest you give Gaiman another shot as he is fantastic. Try some short stories or children's books then go from there on to something like Neverwhere. I ADORE Terry Pratchett's work and can appreciate The Colour Of Magic, but if I'd started with that book then I'd have been put off reading Pratchett's other works - Same thing as you starting with American God's for Gaiman (which is one of the only books by him I didn't like).
    ♥️ to your new puppy!! Respect and love to our Supreme Leader Momo, forever love and missed Mishka - ALL HAIL MISHKA!!

    • @shupak2004
      @shupak2004 2 роки тому +9

      when i first found out about Discworld i figured it was best to read it chronologically and just couldn't get trough The Colour Of Magic after several attempts, i decided to read Equal Rites and fell in love with his writing after that

    • @tangentreverent4821
      @tangentreverent4821 2 роки тому +2

      Two words are very important for understanding Gaiman's writing style
      Narrative filligre.

    • @megroy6396
      @megroy6396 2 роки тому +7

      I think if someone needs to tell you what to expect or how to approach a book in order to enjoy it, that's a flaw in the author, not the reader.
      People don't tend to like being told that they're "wrong" just because a style of storytelling doesn't mesh with them.

    • @pepeedge5601
      @pepeedge5601 2 роки тому +8

      ​@@megroy6396
      Wrong.
      It is a matter of taste.
      some people have no problem with this style and the comment above is just a descriptiom of the mindset people who DO enjoy it have.
      There is no fault in the writer.

    • @lilypond5158
      @lilypond5158 2 роки тому +1

      I think it's just jard for him to enjoy because he reads the books from an author/reviewer point of view, so he looks at details and structure more, basically thinking more than trying to experience the book, I don't think it's "wrong" it's just how he approches things

  • @Laogeodritt
    @Laogeodritt 2 роки тому +66

    I'm so glad you ended up with The Ocean at the End of the Lane-it's one of my favourites of his! I haven't read Sandman, but of Gaiman's work, I've personally never felt American Gods is at the top of the list, especially for showing Gaiman's strengths (that's not to say it isn't good!).
    Gaiman's a character writer, like you said, and I feel small modern-fairy-tale-like stories like The Ocean at the End of the Lane and Stardust really show what he can do with his particular prose style and his ability to delve into the characters. Plots of the scale you expected from American Gods don't seem like they entirely suit Gaiman.

  • @Sajirah
    @Sajirah 2 роки тому +40

    I actually agree with you about American Gods. The small town child disappearance story was the best part. That and all the interlude ‘coming to America’ chapters. They were all perfectly self contained stories and helped flesh out the world and those stories gripped me 1000% more than the main story. Nothing against the main story but it’s never what I remember when I look back on the book, it’s those little side stories and Shadow’s small town interlude that stick out most.

  • @GhostRydr1172
    @GhostRydr1172 2 роки тому +123

    Sandman is a prolonged redemption tale about Dream, the Prince of Stories. And the story of the Prince of stories is peppered with many stories related and unrelated to him but ultimately all have to do with him because Dream IS the Prince of Stories. I think that's what you failed to understand about Sandman. Yes, Sandman is a love letter to storytelling. We really needed nothing else.

    • @neuralmute
      @neuralmute 2 роки тому +19

      I love how Neil Gaiman summed up Sandman in under 20 words: "The King of Dreams is forced to change or die, and so he makes his choice."
      That's not precise, but it's very close.

    • @GhostRydr1172
      @GhostRydr1172 2 роки тому +7

      @@neuralmute "So he chose to die, because there was only so much he could allow himself to change."

    • @neuralmute
      @neuralmute 2 роки тому +5

      @@GhostRydr1172 That was the unspoken bit in the version of the quote I read, but yes, basically. (Did he write that bit somewhere?) Although it could be argued that since the Endless are immortal, to them death is simply a change of perspective or aspect; Dream still exists, just a different version.
      Well, and Death is *also* their big sister... such a complicated family.

    • @tylerdurham6091
      @tylerdurham6091 2 роки тому +4

      @@GhostRydr1172 I see it slightly differently. He chise to die TO change. He was too much himself to consciously let himself change, so he backed himself into a corner where he had no choice. He orchestrsted his own suicide so that he could become more human.

  • @darrenalmgren634
    @darrenalmgren634 2 роки тому +45

    I think Gaiman captured the feeling and attitude of the Midwest - particularly the northern Midwest - really well. The coasts and south have clear cultures they’ve developed or they have strong ties and memories of Europe or Asia.
    But the Midwest is a clusterfuck of cultures where one state doesn’t line up great with another or even within states, cities are completely different from each other. As someone who has grown up in Minnesota and the Midwest most of my life, American Gods is honestly one of the best representations of it.
    The most Midwest most things get is stuff set in Chicago with maybe references to other states, or you get something like Fargo that can sometimes feel like a caricature of the state or region.

  • @Sarah-uj4pg
    @Sarah-uj4pg 2 роки тому +72

    I think my favourite part of American Gods was either the end where Shadow uncovers the mystery of what's happening to all the kids that keep disappearing. It was really satisfying to have that loose end tied up, and the atmosphere was very spooky and mysterious, I liked it a lot!
    (ETA: either that or the vignettes about the gods coming to America between the actual chapters of the book)

  • @AmrSabbagh
    @AmrSabbagh 2 роки тому +44

    American Gods is literally my favorite novel of all time, so I'm saddened to see it didn't work for you. what I appreciate about his books is specifically how meandering they are, while still having each turn and twist on the winding path tie into the larger exploration of theme in the story, even if it doesn't tie into the literal plot. I find his stories cohesive in atmosphere and theme, instead of just with plot, if that description makes any sense

    • @AmrSabbagh
      @AmrSabbagh 2 роки тому +1

      my favorite parts of AG are when Shadow is on the road trip alone and meets Sam and the Lakeside section

  • @ldovratrelundar
    @ldovratrelundar 2 роки тому +35

    As an ongoing comic series, Sandman sort of *is* a collection of short stories. The first arc is about him reconstructing his realm, but as an ongoing series (as opposed to a miniseries which tells one story over a shorter time) it isn't seventy issues of following a plot, it's monthly issues featuring the recurring sandman cast, often in wider story arcs of six or so issues that serve as one story, or individual short stories set in the universe.
    Honestly the problem with how sandman often gets advertised is that it ends up being read as if it's a book, and people who aren't as experienced with comics (no shade, the medium doesn't eat away at the life of everyone the way it does mine lol) will go in with different expectations, reading it all as one book rather than a series of issues over many years
    Having not actually finished American gods yet but Having read it over a year at this point, I can absolutely see how that story is Gaiman shifting his comics writing style into the medium of the novel (idk how early it was in his novel writing) and treating the stories more like an arc in a comic, which functions in itself but isn't absolutely necessary to the entire story overall, which might mean it doesn't work so well (if that makes sense fjsfjsj)

  • @tomwesfog
    @tomwesfog 2 роки тому +24

    The ocean at the end of the lane is so, unbelievably beautiful. My favourite part of his horror writing is that, he taps into a visceral, primordial part of your brain. He reminds you of what it was like to be scared as a child. The horror in this book is woven with a really immediate sense insurmountable grief.

  • @ryand5509
    @ryand5509 2 роки тому +20

    I love American Gods, but never read Sandman. I still think Neil’s best work is his collaboration with Terry Pratchett in Good Omens. One of my favorites of all time.

    • @turtleanton6539
      @turtleanton6539 2 роки тому +1

      Nice pick

    • @maximeteppe7627
      @maximeteppe7627 2 роки тому +1

      I'd have to re-read it. In my recollection, it felt like it was 90% terry pratchett and about 10% gaiman. Great book, but it kind of felt like gaiman got eaten by pratchett in this collaboration - although I will never resent him to have taken this opportunity to work with his idol and become friends with him.

    • @VeryDryBones
      @VeryDryBones 2 роки тому

      Honestly sandman is one of the greatest masterpiece humans ever created

  • @dayalasingh5853
    @dayalasingh5853 2 роки тому +15

    I read Sandman in middle school and I had no expectations going in, so really it just blew me away. I'm definitely a big Gaiman fan and I think I've gotten pretty used to his unique style and I never even noticed what you brought up about promises that the story makes. I loved those small stories, one of my favourite is about the guy who falls into the dream of a city and it ends by saying that he moved to the country not out of fear of falling into another dream, but what happens when the cities wake up. Also Dream killing Orpheus always breaks your heart. I remember I predicted perfectly that Daniel would become the new dream after we FIRST meet him and I've never been prouder. Also I suggest the four issue mini series Books of Magic a lot.

  • @Twisted_Logic
    @Twisted_Logic 2 роки тому +34

    This reminds me of a similar exchange I had with a friend of mine some years back (I was Benji in this situation). I lent him my copy of Lord of Light because he was a big fan of the Amber books by the same author. He gave it back saying he couldn't get past the first chapter because of the lack of exposition; it just drops you into a world that tbe characters already understand and you're more or less left to piece it together yourself.
    That was one of my favorite things about the book, but for him it was overwhelming and confusing. Sometimes people are looking for different things out of their stories and that's awesome. The world would be a lot more boring if we all wanted the same thing.

    • @nathancarter8239
      @nathancarter8239 2 роки тому +4

      I'll point to Malazan Book of the Fallen as an example of this. There is purposefully *no* worldbuilding or explanations for what's going. You're just dropped in (and out! That's really confusing!) situations and you have to decide what feels important. (Also, minor spoilers, but apparently that confusion and style is important.)

    • @Twisted_Logic
      @Twisted_Logic 2 роки тому +8

      @@nathancarter8239 That sounds right up my alley. Will definitely take a look.
      I grew up with my parents relatively often accidentally buying me books that were in the middle of a series and I grew to kinda dig the experience.

    • @neuralmute
      @neuralmute 2 роки тому +1

      Lord Of Light is one of my favourite books, and figuring out the world it's set in was one of the thing I loved most about reading it, then reading it again. I love books that make me think, which is probably also why I'm a fan of Neil Gaiman, William Gibson, and N.K. Jemisin. (If you haven't read her Broken Earth trilogy, you probably should!)

    • @kat8559
      @kat8559 2 роки тому +2

      it's weird to me that people are calling his approach "wrong." It's simply different. We all have different tastes and expectations, and that's what makes discourse worthwhile.

    • @neuralmute
      @neuralmute 2 роки тому +2

      @@kat8559 Definitely! There's no "wrong" or "right" way to write, especially in the fields of comics and fantasy, where Neil Gaiman has done most of his work. There are just different approaches, that may or may not work for different people. And that's fine.

  • @juliahenriques210
    @juliahenriques210 2 роки тому +40

    I love Gaiman to death, and part of this love stems from the fact that his writing is about the ride, about savouring each and every twist and turn of each story. That and his unapologetic matter-of-factly fantasy. He knows where he's getting at, but that's more of a sidenote for many of his narratives. Neverwhere and the Graveyard, though, are pretty plot driven, and can maybe cater more to your expectations in the sense that most of what seems important is actually important.
    A teacher and friend of mine translated The Ocean when it first came out, and she talked to him about it when he hadn't finished his last version yet. She travelled to England and even went to the damn lane (which actually exists) and saw the actual pond. It's interesting that you liked The Ocean for being more "tightly packed", when in fact it was created from an assortment of autobiographical anecdotes and then woven into a story. Perhaps the smaller scope of the narrative made for smaller digressions? Who knows.

  • @TonberryV
    @TonberryV 2 роки тому +13

    Gaiman is probably my favorite author. He doesn't seem to allow the belief that anything is JUST that thing. There is always something more, little (or often, not so little) nods to great classics or more obscure works that have touched his life. He also tends to follow the paths of unintended consequences, where you hope you get to ride along with the butterfly but often catch the hurricane anyways.

    • @princessthyemis
      @princessthyemis 2 роки тому +1

      Following the path of unintended consequences...I've never thought about it that way but that's an absolutely beautiful way to describe his writing. I absolutely love it!!!!!

  • @Zomburai45
    @Zomburai45 2 роки тому +18

    I think the discussion about Sandman is extremely interesting.
    Because like everyone I've talked to about Sandman kind of inherently groks things like the story from the point of view of a cat--that collection was a collection of single issues that was meant to tell individual stories from Morpheus's world, kind of fill that space, and wouldn't necessarily tie back into it. Sort of a very format-driven way of telling a long-form story. (Also kind of the inverse of how The X-Files handled their mytharc episodes. Two series, started within a few years of each other, that were in mediums kind of defined by their episodic nature at the time.)
    But it never occurred to me (and it makes perfect sense) that if you come into it without kind of an instinctual sense of the monthly-floppy-into-collection format and how that makes storytelling choices--yeah, you might be expecting that the cat might be extremely important! (Which has the potential for further frustration since some of the characters and plot points introduced in the single-issue stories DO end up playing important parts later.)
    Very interesting sort of perspective. I've got some thinking to do on that.

  • @juliapaoli1681
    @juliapaoli1681 2 роки тому +9

    When I finished American Gods I felt just like you. I had high expectations of a grandiose and hectic plot, in which we would be deeply introduced to a new world. It took me a long time to finish reading and I was very upset when my expectations were not met. After thinking a lot I came to a conclusion/theory that, as much as it doesn't make me love the book, makes me respect its writing and storytelling a lot.
    The way the story is presented to the reader is in tone with Shadow's personality. "He's not dead, but he's not alive either" is an important part of the plot, remember? He's just been introduced to a world where Gods are real and his life has been turned upside down but he doesn't go insane. Everything happening around him and he just accepts things, doesn't ask questions, doesn't demand answers. Why should we be satisfied by hearing about peaceful life in a small town while there's a war between gods going on? Because he was satisfied by staying there .
    I don't know if Gaiman thought this as he wrote it, but I don't care, it makes perfect sense to me. I wouldn't reread the book precisely because I didn't like Shadow hahaha, but I can't not admire it.

  • @packman2321
    @packman2321 2 роки тому +4

    I always enjoy Gaiman when I come across him (I'm a somewhat frenetic reader) but then I think I've always enjoyed stories that meander and travel. Stuff like Alice in Wonderland, Voyage of the Dawntreader or House of Leaves where the aim isn't to follow a specific finished plot but to travel with some characters for a while and see the world and I remember getting that same feeling from American Gods when I read it (though this is going years back). I'm also a mythology nut though, so that helped a bunch.
    I was thinking throughout this, before you mentioned Ocean at the End of the Lane that Gaiman's children's books (Ocean at the End of the Lane, Coraline, Wolves in the Walls) tend to be tighter plotted just by virtue of having less pages to play with and an audience less used to these meandering works. So I'm glad you found one that worked for you.
    It's also nice that Gaiman's an author that isn't afraid to cross into and sometimes blur that Adult/child line in writing since often children's literature gets viewed as dumbed down adult work (the same with comics) so it's really cool to see a writer who can put his all in to create excellent stuff across genres and across audiences, rather than keeping their A game for the literati adults that tend to be most served by notions of 'good books'.

  • @johnnymillar9056
    @johnnymillar9056 2 роки тому +7

    I love American Gods but I'm not going to comment beyond that.
    Sandman on the other hand. I wish someone had told you the structure of the work before you read it. It switches between a plot arc and a series of standalones back and forth. Standalones that you could easily just skip and not lose much of the plot.
    But also standalones that articulate ideas and themes that the plot will then pick up and explore in more detail or vice versa. Like the whole point of the cat issue (which is only one issue, so I'm curious to what you mean by it lasting a long time) is that what we dream changes the universe. Belief is power. A recurring theme for Gaiman but sandman was his first big success, so this is one of its earliest examples.
    Gaiman has said in interviews when asked what the Sandman is broadly about "it's about how the world has changed while Sandman has been gone and now he needs to either change with it or die"
    (Paraphrased)
    I feel like that thematic element is promised, progressed and paid off beautifully throughout the run. The first arc is just about regaining his items of power. Then the arcs regarding what's changed with the world, what's changed in hell and with the gods, what's changed in his family of Endless, what's changed with his love interests, what's changed within Dream himself.
    The reveal at the end that Dream has subconsciously orchestrated his own death because he knows the version of Dream that he is right now is not the one that can fully interact with this world. So he both dies and changes. (How often is personal growth a kind of death of the old you?)
    And sometimes Gaiman will set up something as a plot promise but pay it off thematically, or set up a thematic question and pay it off with plot mechanics. And he tends not to explain that he's doing this. The conversation between Death and Dream right before Dream is killed and revived as new Dream is really the only indication we get that Dream is aware that he's done this to himself. But it's definitely there.
    And I think there is beauty to the vignettes, which is why Gaiman alternates plot arc and standalones. He likes to tell stories about stories. Stories about ideas. Stuff that isn't intended to click into place at the end like some Brandersonian avalanche of payoff, but provide context. Provide emotional and philosophical context for what is happening.
    Don't have much to say in Ocean Lane. Fucking masterpiece 10/10. I like Sandman the most out of all of his work but Ocean Lane easily rivals it as his best work. Which is amazing considering the size difference between the two.

    • @dominictemple
      @dominictemple 2 роки тому +2

      Johnny, you hit the nail on the bloody head there. Well said. 👍

  • @J_Halcyon
    @J_Halcyon 2 роки тому +20

    Agree with the problems with Gaiman. He's fantastic at setting the scene and starting plot threads; he's terrible at wrapping up those threads and letting the story end. He's at his best when he has another voice to move things along and wind down side-quests (Hi there, Good Omens).

    • @shupak2004
      @shupak2004 2 роки тому +4

      damn i was looking for a good omens related comment and i totally agree TP was doing a lot of lifting in that book in my opinion especially humor-wise

    • @thedestroyasystem
      @thedestroyasystem 2 роки тому +6

      I don’t know if I’d say it’s a problem, per se, it’s a quirk to the way he tells stories. One thing he does a lot in his short stories is give an ambiguous ending, and I think that illustrates that in the majority of his stories it isn’t ABOUT the end. It’s about what the characters do, how they feel, all the mundane things that he makes us care about. A journey, not the destination, type thing. And it’s totally okay if that’s not for you, but I don’t think it’s accurate to call it a problem with his writing. It’s what many, including myself, specifically love him for.

  • @shizueigaki702
    @shizueigaki702 Рік тому +1

    That's what I love about Gaiman: plot structure doesn't matter. He's not trying to write with a formula, and trying to neatly tie ribbons on things. Some characters come, become important for a part of our lives, and then disappear completely never to be heard from again. And we think, "Well, what's this about then?" And that is what makes Gaiman's writing so alive. They come, and then, they are gone, never to be heard from again.

  • @BigOlTrashMan
    @BigOlTrashMan 2 роки тому +9

    funny enough I bought American gods a few days ago, and in my opinion it is one of if not the best books I've read full stop. It works perfectly for me, the pacing and the massive side stories witch make the world feel more alive and real to me. I fully understand where you're coming from but in my opinion that makes the story better. I will definitely read gaimans other works and i appreciated hearing you're perspective.

  • @6ixpoint5ive
    @6ixpoint5ive 2 роки тому +1

    yeah 100% Gaiman is a ‘journey is more important then the destination” kinda writer and ‘theme over plot’. I think it’s also important to remember that Gaiman is inspired by myths, fairytales, and folklore, which are also way more about themes than plot (myths don’t make a lot of sense, but their messages are powerful.)


    His side stories DO tie back into the story, BUT they do so symbolically/thematically than in terms of plot. Gaiman loves writing stories. He comes up with little ideas that connect then thematically into the larger story, with characters coming back etc and often through different time periods, worlds, universes, and realms within human history and human imagination. 
It’s a big reason I love his works. Its epic fantasy, in an urban and magical realism clothes. It’s all the wonder and ethereal mysticism of mythology/folklore packaged together as a larger modern fantasy novel. 


    He’s said that the Chronicles of Narnia is one of his biggest inspirations for writing his books, and I think once you know that, all of his books make sense. He uses the same narrative tropes, the same story structure, and the same overall attitude of ‘theme over plot.’ Combine this story structure with bursts of short stories that are written like folktales/fairytales/myths that tie back into the overall novel’s themes and that’s Neil Gaiman.
    
I love his books with a passion, but yeah, definitely not for everyone. - however if you want Gaiman’s essence with more structure and plotting, definitely try Terry Pratchett. Pratchett’s first few novels are more Gaimany, but by Guards Guards (and also a few other ones before then, but definitely by this point), his plots are super tight. Things come back that you didn’t expect to and everything’s tied together in a neat little bow, to the point where a lot of his books have Return of the King levels of endings haha (which I love), making each re-read that much more rich.
    Anyway, sorry you didn’t love AG or Sandman Gaiman, but I’m glad you enjoyed Ocean :)

  • @sad_divorced_dad_
    @sad_divorced_dad_ 2 роки тому +4

    I'm currently half way through good omens and wow is it fantastic so far. I'm stoked to read more from both Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett.

    • @mintyice2468
      @mintyice2468 2 роки тому +3

      Unfortunately Terry Pratchett has passed away but on the bright side there is the first season of the tv series in part dedicated to Pratchett and the season 2 coming out in 2023 that was based on the unreleased sequel to good omens that the both had plans to release but never got around to doing :)

  • @lsu1992
    @lsu1992 4 місяці тому +7

    He has a pretty serious one rn.
    😂

  • @wildlynervousdaze9243
    @wildlynervousdaze9243 2 роки тому +7

    I was just about to suggest you read "The Ocean at the End of the Lane" when you were describing why you were put off by Gaiman's other works. Personally, I have loved all books/ comics of his that I have come across, but "The Ocean at the End of the Lane" has a special place in my heart. The Graveyard book is similar in that it was fun to read, and only till you get to the end you get the whole theme that he was diving into with the story, and it hits you hard, specially if you read it as a young adult I think.

  • @themightykahn24
    @themightykahn24 2 роки тому +5

    Sandman was initially published as a monthly comic book from D.C.comics. Comic books can be single issue stories or year-long arcs. It's just the nature of the beast. 'A dream of a thousand cats' was one such single issue story. Wasn't meant to have lasting significance to the overall narrative of Morpheus's journey as a charcter.
    Take smaller bites.
    My favorite story was 'Three septembers and a january'. That last page shook me.

    • @rhaenyralikesyoutube6289
      @rhaenyralikesyoutube6289 2 роки тому +1

      I loved A Dream of a Thousand Cats, but then again, I'm a cat person, and if you're not into cats it won't be for you.

  • @birdy-black
    @birdy-black 2 роки тому +4

    I've read every novel he's ever written and most of his short stories. And listened to the full cast sandman part one and two. Hands down my all time favorite author. His career is inspiring, he never went to college and started writing novels rather late. He admits he's not the best "author" or "novelist" in the world, but I think his absolute value is as a story teller. His personality, humor and mercurial wandering is etched in every page. When I read Gaiman, I am left with inspiration and wonder. Joy and energy. I think that the way he writes lets us know as creators that you don't have to think so hard about what is technically perfect and follow old tropes and structures, but rather as creators you are allowed to go into a state of flow and allow a tale within you to be spun into the world.

  • @רוןגורליק-ה5ע
    @רוןגורליק-ה5ע 2 роки тому +6

    I’ve read Sandman and loved it, I’ve read Coraline and Ocean at the end of the lane (which was my favorite) I also have read good omens which I loved and The Graveyard book which is wonderful and I said that Gaiman is the best author ever and I started American gods and I really didn’t enjoy the story to the case of closing the book and hoping that some day I will open it again 🤨
    Gaiman is still one of my favorite authors and I recommend on reading his poems and short stories he’s not always great with plot or climax but he’s great with characters and with writing which makes the whole book for me

  • @sarachapman969
    @sarachapman969 2 роки тому +8

    For crying out loud, I was 15 when I read Sandman and could still grasp once I got a few trades in that it was often meant to be taken more as an anthology series than something where everything serves an over-arching plot thread. That it basically does both throughout is part of what makes it a great and rewarding series to get all the way through.

  • @dallasgrey4247
    @dallasgrey4247 2 роки тому +1

    I’ve never understood why people believe that Morpheus is the protagonist of The Sandman. He barley does anything, and leaves all the other characters to do the interesting stuff, while he mopes around until his cool older sister comes along to make that issue ten times better.

  • @Duiker36
    @Duiker36 2 роки тому +12

    I've disagreed with a lot of the writing advice I've seen you give on your main channel, and I think some of that disagreement actually factors in here. You've a tendency to prefer tightness and a very steady cadence in your style, I think, and Gaiman is almost the exact opposite in that he's the kind of storyteller who you'd listen to declaim, slowly, ponderously, for hours over a campfire. I've been to some of the appearances he makes where it's just "give him something to talk about that he feels like talking about" and that's it and they're *great* because his natural voice is perfect for that kind of hypnotic, languid drumbeat and doesn't well fit a more frenetic or clipped pacing. Sometimes he speeds up and it's more like building thunder than cruising down a highway, if you get my drift.
    You can often tell that Gaiman is a horror writer almost first and foremost, if not for his genre-defying topics otherwise.

  • @PackRatGirl
    @PackRatGirl 2 роки тому +1

    Woof! THANK YOU! I love Neil Gamien but you have managed to NAIL what's been frustrating me about his writing. I wanted everything to tie together and a lot of the times, it didn't. This happens with a lot of his work, even the ones I cherish.

  • @linkow
    @linkow 2 роки тому +4

    That's exactly my problem with Gaiman. He has a lot of cool ideas, but somehow they are deeply unsatisfying. It feels like he's meandering, aimless, and he has taken us hostage in this creative, but ultimately meaningless exploration. I can honestly see why people love his work. I just never got into it, and it wasn't for lack of trying.

  • @deaddhianna
    @deaddhianna 2 роки тому +3

    I read the ocean at the end of the lane out loud to several of my friends and each one of them said they immensely enjoyed it. Some parts of it seemed oddly graphic compared to the rest of the book. This, for me, included the cat, the business man being found in his car, and the way the boys family treats him when they're sort of spellbound by the creature. I did really enjoy all the visual aspects of the novel but I still can not picture what the thing even looks like. Flapping canvas over a parasol like frame.. just reminds me of sheets on a hills hoist.

  • @kittensmakingcandles
    @kittensmakingcandles 2 роки тому +4

    Gaiman is one of my favorite comic authors. For me, I think in most his writing, his main strength is in finding ways to build out elements from his story into complex and characterized permutations. Finding an adventure in the creative exploration of the handful of elements at hand, alone and interplayed with each other. Rather than racing through a chain of shallow, throwaway elements to get to some final destination payoff.
    When I worked as an MMO quest writer, I mainly adopted a Gaiman-esque writing style, and to great success. Because it allowed me to develop deep and profound experiences within the small spaces and few elements that each quest was (for practical reasons) bounded by. Enabling me to add rich and explorable texture onto otherwise face value props and settings. Mundane nuances became a foot in the door to fabulous worlds and tales.
    Like taking any single object in your room, and writing a tale of how it was auctioned in a witches estate sale, where it had been inventoried as a spell reagent because it was the sole possession of an enslaved gremlin who cried her last tears upon it. And that this enchanted property had enabled its use in a binding spell which a kitchen magi had used to anchor a pet house ghost to it. Blah, Blah, Blah.

    • @prajwaljayaraj5887
      @prajwaljayaraj5887 6 місяців тому

      That's very true, which MMO's did you write for?

  • @praskovyakasyanenko6420
    @praskovyakasyanenko6420 2 роки тому +3

    This just proves how different people are, I guess. I've always loved the regular kind of story that goes from plot point to plot point but when I read Neil Gaiman for the first time I fell in love with his casual "magic in the mundane" kind of slow storytelling. It makes his worlds feel properly lived in, in my opinion.

  • @wilsonsauls2899
    @wilsonsauls2899 2 роки тому +1

    I can kinda see and understand your point but also your argument in a sense is “If you disregard all the substance, there isn’t much going on”. I’m not a massive comics reader and my knowledge of Gaiman is only what little of Sandman I’ve read but I really appreciate how the series is more or less an anthology with light overarching threads and that the story is very much about the stories it tells
    I know this style isn’t for everyone and it doesn’t have to be for you, but that argument just kinda bothered me a bit. That’s all

  • @cosa_oscura
    @cosa_oscura 2 роки тому +1

    It’s so funny - when I saw your selections, and heard the thesis of your video, I was taking up arms in defense of OATEOTL. It was so pleasant when I realized you agreed with me. I love your analysis and I think it’s spot on, even though I love Gaiman for the very reasons you list as issues (like your friend did). I THINK you might enjoy his The Graveyard Book and Coraline, too. A bit silly but also lovely. As per the usual.

  • @2ndhandbookclan274
    @2ndhandbookclan274 2 роки тому +1

    Dude, are we the same person? I had the exact same experience with those Gaiman books! I was so confused by the fanfare for AG after I finished it. It felt like a promising outline at best and yes it was creatively spectacular. But my goodness, where are we going here Gaiman?

  • @CraftyVegan
    @CraftyVegan 2 роки тому +3

    I fell in love with American gods because it feels like a series of beautiful memories and vignettes where despite how unconnected they are, they’re still important to the entire plot, the same way that a frog’s story in Michigan has no actual connection to a Wolf’s story in Oregon, but they’re still important and connected because they’re both living stories that define each of them.
    The American versions of gods are no less authentic for being memories of the original gods from each separate country just the same as how diasporic descendants of immigrants are no less authentic in being themselves and embracing some and pushing away other aspects of their parents and grandparents cultures.
    It spoke to me directly because, to me, it says it’s good to know your and others’ history, but it’s detrimental to stagnate and insist that traditions be strictly adhered to, just as it’s detrimental to embrace every single new thing that comes by just because it’s new.
    And the way the book was written, the adaptation to screen, regardless of how well or poorly they stuck to the exact content of the book, they could get away with exploring any deity who did or didn’t appear in print as long as they kept the same thematic elements. Every difference in the book felt more like Neil was adding chapters and expanding the universe rather than “breaking” the world by changing it, because with the additions and deletions (especially knowing how the books explain the gods existence) it feels right.
    I loved the little stopovers and vignette side stories along the the main plot because it showed that these main characters, despite being kinda busy, still had time to stop and learn about different people and their individual experiences. Neil didn’t treat them like disposable plot points, he treated them like full people, regardless of their direct effect on the main story, and because of that, each person in the story feels heard and valid. Even on the “bad guys” side.

  • @QuestingRefuge
    @QuestingRefuge 2 роки тому +1

    Haha as soon as you mentioned the cats I felt like your friend as I went "but that's one of the best parts!"
    This was interesting to hear because it makes sense why this could be frustrating for some. I think Gaiman is one of my favorites because of this.
    So glad you ended up reading Ocean at the End of the Lane though! It's one of my favorites I made sure to mention a scene in my essay on Gaiman.

  • @jpboy79
    @jpboy79 2 роки тому +5

    I think both American God's and Sandman have to also be looked at in context to when they where published. Especially Sandman, as it was a ground breaking comic series.
    Also Sandman was a series of short stories published monthly. Reading them with the idea of enforced pacing that way does change my perception of them. Of course having the cat story interrupt things and cause a month or more delay before plot moves might be even worse for you.
    I love his works but about 6ish years ago I have not been able to read him, beloved books I have read many times or new works. Not sure why but always hope I will one day pick up his works up and fall back in love.

  • @lauren1779
    @lauren1779 Місяць тому +1

    You’ve said things I have avoided admitting to myself. It’s all well and good but it could be great 😭

  • @brettn8029
    @brettn8029 2 роки тому +2

    I am so glad you gave The Ocean At the End of the Lane a try! It’s my favorite of his novels. Incredibly creepy, compelling, and really shows how Gaiman can turn the mundane into the fantastic.

  • @archangel1of7
    @archangel1of7 2 роки тому +1

    The Egyptian gods do come back though. They are at the end of the book when Shadow is hanging from the tree.

  • @paxtenebrae
    @paxtenebrae 2 роки тому +10

    Especially in the case of The Sandman, I tend to view Gaiman's work as him not telling one big story, but developing the canon of his own modern mythology. The story about how Dream appears to cats doesn't further Morpheus' story at all but it doesn't exist for that. It's there to provide the reader with a modern mythological explanation for why cats are the adorable, weird assholes that we all know and love today...and where they go when they mysteriously disappear. It tells you the Secret Origin of cats! That, I assure you, is more than reason enough for it to exist. It doesn't then have to also further the plot. The Shakespeare stuff is there purely as a mythological explanation for why Shakespeare is so damned good. So on. The purpose is that weird emotional satisfaction when you hear a good myth and you're like, "Yeah, that feels true. I know it rationally isn't, but it resounds truly in the chamber of my soul. Neat!"
    Nearly all of Gaiman's stories are as if an oral storyteller told tales to a small village around the campfire every night for years...and then someone adapted every one of those stories into a comic book or a novel. It doesn't all match up, it doesn't all go somewhere, but all of it is awe inspiring or funny or tells you some emotional truth about your world. This stuff is heckin' cozy and makes me feel like I'm swimming in creative juices. It is easily the best part of any story he tells.
    No one is like "I wonder why that story about Loki cutting off all of Sif's hair is in the Edda. Never paid off in Ragnarok at all! They don't fight or anything, I guess I didn't have to care about that story." Like...no, that's not how telling myths works. Gaiman is just playing a very, very old game with new media. That is his essential schtick.

  • @sertaki
    @sertaki 2 роки тому

    Thank you.
    Your exploration of Gaiman's writing really helped me understand why I love his work, I could never quite put my finger on what speaks to me so strongly (apart from strong themes and beautiful prose, which he both delivers in droves without question)

  • @aguywithalotofopinions412
    @aguywithalotofopinions412 2 роки тому +1

    Naming your dog Willow is the most fantasy fan thing I’ve ever seen

  • @chloeeastwood6696
    @chloeeastwood6696 2 роки тому +1

    I like his work. It's got a meandering dreamlike quality. Things just happen. They matter when they matter and that's it.

  • @carowolff4702
    @carowolff4702 2 роки тому +1

    The first book I read by Gaiman was 'Neverwhere'. Similarly to 'American Gods', it drags for the first two thirds, but the ending is worth the journey. But what I really fell in love with was the colourful cast of characters, both main and minor. They all got their own distinct looks, habits, and speaking quirks, which came alive in his magical writing style. I can put up with the flimsy story because I highly enjoy the characters and settings. It feels as if I am there with them. "A book is a dream you hold in your hand" holds very true.
    I can recommend 'Smoke and Mirrors', which is a collection of short stories that are just as vimsical and vivid as any of his books

  • @lordphinix3
    @lordphinix3 2 роки тому +2

    I enjoyed American gods and I enjoyed it, mostly for the middle part where he's hiding out in the small town. Given that I also enjoyed a similar part when reading King's 11/22/63 I think I might just be vicariously enjoying small town bliss.

  • @FirionLeFleur
    @FirionLeFleur 2 роки тому

    You just earned a sub.
    I was worried with the title this would be another reviewer bashing something I love and I was very surprised at how nuanced it was.
    Also I want to point out I'm not sure which version of Sandman you read (issues, paperback, hardcover) but I find it interesting the main paperback releases always said on the back these can be read in any order except The Kindly Ones and The Wake. And you can definitely tell they were written that way, Book one sets up three paths, book two delivers on one and then allows breathing room for two others, book three is listed in paperback as a short story collection so I knew with hindsight already, book four delivers on a promise in book one (and also has a returning character from a short story in book three), book five(?) brings back a character from book two. I really like that they're dreamlike in that they kinda glide and meld but are still disconnected enough while still making sense. And then all those threads weave back together in 9 and 10 in a way I think is incredible. But it definitely gets muddled in single issue format since we have that short story in the middle of the book two plot and the paperback release just moved it to the short story collection book 3. Because comics 🙃
    But yeah I very much appreciate this review.

  • @moonleafteaofthemonth
    @moonleafteaofthemonth 2 роки тому +3

    The only other part that really freaked me other than the worm, wasn't really anything Ursula did, at least not directly. It was the scene where his father almost drowned him in the bath, and did it while he seemed to be under some sort of compulsion that might have been Ursula, and probably was. Or we'd like to think so, anyway.

  • @Master30006
    @Master30006 2 роки тому +1

    Before watching the video: I've considered Neil for a long time to be my favorite author and that mostly spawned from my enjoyment from the ideas he created. My first was American Gods, with it's intermixing of Old gods, many of whom I didn't know about, and New gods, many of whom I understood why he chose these. After that I've been intermittently reading Sandman, his short stories, and Ocean At The End Of The Lane and Coraline. He is no longer my favorite author (Ursula K. Le Guin, the master herself), but I've always admired his tone of voice and storytelling that felt reminiscent to me of fairy tales, set in modern settings. It felt to me like there was a quiet old-world wonder to his stories that didn't need to explain magic or monsters, or even the wisdom that comes not from growing older, though there is wisdom in maturing, but is found innately in children. That's my thought anyways.
    After watching the video: I'm glad that Tim addresses that a big part of his issue with these stories was his "expectations" going in. I've found expectations to be one of the biggest hinderances in properly engaging with what a book/story is about. People have already addressed that Sandman is a comic series that came out in issues, so in a way, it's already a grab-bag of short stories with occasionally some story arcs over certain volumes. If American Gods wasn't for him, that's fine, to each his own, and I say this as someone who considered it one of his favorites for years. Ocean At The End Of The Lane is spectacular, and feels like it's in the same vein as Coraline, for "children being faced with larger-than-life fairy tale monsters." He's right that you can't deny his quality of writing, even if his stories aren't for everyone, but sometimes you just find other writers who you enjoy more or do things in a way that's more what you're looking for.
    Still, a great video! It's nicely explained and thought-out without resulting in too much generalization of an entire author's writing style.

  • @VoidedFilms
    @VoidedFilms 2 роки тому +1

    After my viseral reactions to Amarican Gods, Sand Man and Norse Mythology, I've shrugged off Neil Gaiman's writing and themes as not for me. However, your reaction to OCean at the end of the Lane as me interested and if I ever check it out I should do an updated comment! Thanks so much for the recommendation!

  • @lauramcdonald5004
    @lauramcdonald5004 2 роки тому +2

    I feel very similarly about Neil Gaiman. I absolutely love the concepts and ideas he explores. On paper he should be my favorite author of all time, but usually I am left a little disappointed (mostly because, like you hinted, my narrative expectations aren't met). Like you, I am not really a plot driven reader. I usually am much more interested in characters, but I also absolutely hate absurdism. I think Gaiman has a certain affinity for absurdism in his writing, even though he doesnt have both feet completely in that camp.
    I have found that I really enjoy his shorter books like Ocean and The Graveyard Book. His strengths work in short stories. When I can sense the short stories woven throughout his longer books I tend to like them more (like Neverwhere, which seemed more quest/episodic in its pacing). But for whatever reason I could NOT get into either American Gods, or Sandman, despite being really excited by both when I started them.

  • @vyt2622
    @vyt2622 2 роки тому +1

    My introduction to American Gods described it as a road trip book. And it definitely is! It's a lot of the characters traveling place to place, meeting people, even going to tourist spots. And of course the Road Trip is another one of those aspects of Americana. But it also generally works as a metaphor for the writing style. When you take a road trip you (probably) have a destination in mind, but it's going to take a long time to get there, and the vast majority of the memories made will be in between: the people you were with, the jokes made in the car, the silly attractions along the way. The destination was just there to give a direction to point in.

  • @ansk6850
    @ansk6850 2 роки тому

    It’s quite possible, that you’ve hit the nail on the head. The stories are a fascinating conversation, the thought tunnels burrowed and excavated in my own brain. Not a journey I could , necessarily, undertake on my own, without a promp. Thanks for that.

  • @Shaijn815
    @Shaijn815 2 роки тому

    I think what i really enjoy about Gaiman's work is the texture he imbues his characters and worlds which feel so rich and alive. They remind me a lot of those wierd random stories you come home with after travelling something you completely didn't plan or expect that life put in front of you through an bunch of random chance and coalesced into a wonderful impression that left a lasting indelible memory you can dip back into from time to time to enjoy some warm fuzzy nostalgia. His characters and worlds often give me such similar feelings they are all doing things or trying to do things but the coolest moments are the side quests where they get to just chill and meet some cool people and share a conversation or a meal respite before heading back to whatever quest is awaiting their urgent attention. One of my favourite tv shows ever was Treme which was basically also just a character study of various characters living in New Orleans as well the culture of the city and the state. I have never lived or visited new orleans yet so not sure how accurate it goes but that show felt to me like something of a love letter for the city and culture that exists in of which the people past, present and future make up the threads of it's tapestrt. I guess this is the most succintly i can put my thoughts togther on how Gaiman's works make me feel and why i enjoy. Worth mentioning i need to be in a kind of meandering curious imaginative mood to read his work sometimes as others i can defintely lose patience if i am unable to appreciate the tangent we are going on a bit like what you described with the mortuary scene with our two egyptian deties. I would honestly love if we saw alot more short stories from the american gods universe i don't think i found any of the characters he introduced uninteresting.

  • @ericksemones9681
    @ericksemones9681 2 роки тому +1

    I loved Ocean at the End of the Lane. It was wild and weird and horrifying. It was a story that was about a lot of things but never stopped to belabor those points. It the first book that made me cry - the cat at the end got me.

  • @lauralalu6165
    @lauralalu6165 2 роки тому

    I really enjoyed your video, but to be honest my favorite part was when the cute puppy sneezed. Kinda what I needed today. 💚

  • @jerseyfanel
    @jerseyfanel 2 роки тому

    I love the three books you mentioned. I connect to Gaima's writing because of his character driven stories, when I started The Sandman was because of the interesting plot but I stayed for the characters. I love that every time I read a book by Neil Gaiman, I will connect with a character in a personal way.

  • @LilyShimizu
    @LilyShimizu 2 роки тому +1

    As someone who thought she didn’t like books well into middle school, Coraline was the first ever fictional novel I actually picked up to read for myself. But I’ve never delved into his other work decided the two other books I got along in a childrens novel box set when I later wanted to own a copy of Coraline. I wonder if his other works would interest me.

  • @gi581d7
    @gi581d7 2 роки тому +1

    Gaiman is a writer for people who like anthologies. He writes stories for the sake of stories and they're good stories, Gaiman is one of my favorites

  • @calvinbethea3369
    @calvinbethea3369 2 роки тому +1

    One of the things that made Neil Gaiman’s Sandman a hit was it’s break from the central character. Like a dream it was fractured with each piece being relevant. That’s how I found American Gods to be. I remember vignettes as apposed to a whole conclusive story. Unlike Coraline or the Graveyard Book. I think you should have read the comic first to see his interconnected reality of stories. It might have made American Gods an easier or more understandable read.

  • @briannalee1998
    @briannalee1998 2 роки тому +1

    When you said Sandman was a love letter to fiction and the imagination, that reminded me of Promethis, which is my second favorite comic book series after Monstress! Another great story by GAimon is the comic Snow, Glass, Apples which is a dark and twisted retelling of Snow White that definitely delivers on the plot promise!

  • @DayDreamsofaStranger
    @DayDreamsofaStranger 2 роки тому

    I've really only read one of Gaiman's works (and it's good omens, because of course it is) but I truly loved how each character was given a life of their own, a life that didn't need to progress the plot or mean anything going forward. It fleshed out the world for me, made me care about the characters and believe the world much more than I might a streamlined story where everything introduced is important or serves a purpose. I enjoyed the human feel of it.

  • @inescamarinha3009
    @inescamarinha3009 2 роки тому

    Neil Gaiman is one of my favorite writers, so I feel compelled to comment. The Ocean at the End of the Lane is a book I have been meaning to reread, because I feel there is still a lot there that I didn't quite took in, but there is also so much that is so vividly etched into my brain (and soul - the discomfort, the tension, the anxiety) that I haven't managed the stomach to do it.
    I would just like to mention that Gaiman has a couple of short story collections published and you might enjoy those.

  • @MadDogRyan
    @MadDogRyan 2 роки тому +1

    All of the sand man comics are amazing they are my favorite pieces of western literature all of the comics that that have come from the sand man like Lucifer and Hell Blazer etc… I’m huge on reading and the wheel of time is favorite novel series but in terms of western literature in general is anything in the sand man universe

  • @g4r4b4tos
    @g4r4b4tos 2 роки тому

    I relate to Benji a lot.
    My favorite one is The Graveyard Book. It's technically a book for kids, one that I found at an airport's bookstore and knew that, Gaiman being Gaiman, could be enjoyed by an adult. It's simple, yes. But also incredibly dark and hard at times. And when you read the after words of Gaiman about it, it makes it even more emotional (same with The Ocean At the end of the Lane). It does suffer from the same thing you don't like about the other novels (I don't like it either, but I enjoy the process so much, the pictures that he paints are so vivid, that I just don't care), but it's beautiful anyway. I really, really like that book.

  • @agrumpymonkey5800
    @agrumpymonkey5800 2 роки тому

    The thing that I love about The Sandman series is how certain stories stick with me long after I read them. Years later I would remember bits of the stories and the way it made me feel or think differently about life, death, dreams, and everything else.
    The Sandman series is Timeless…….

  • @thesamuraiman
    @thesamuraiman 2 роки тому +1

    I listened to the Sandman audio drama adaptation on Audible. I really enjoyed it. Probably partially biased because the audio drama was very cool.
    Going through Sandman, I felt early on that it was just a collection and I was just enjoying the journey. The cat thing was definitely hilariously random, I totally agree 🤣🤣

  • @dawngrrrl
    @dawngrrrl 2 роки тому +1

    I felt the same way about Gaiman and felt alone in that reaction so I'm glad I found this video. Beautiful writing, clearly a creative force, but I couldn't finish American Gods and never went back.

  • @ghostlyerlkonig
    @ghostlyerlkonig 2 роки тому

    My dad hates the way gaiman writes but I adore it. It's so comforting and pulls you into it, it genuinely feels like I'm standing in the story, Ocean At The End of the Lane is a favorite (I'm more attracted to his short stories) and the scene with the monsters and the worm it just. It felt so real. The protag not having a name is very. It's just right.

  • @Jay-Kay-Buwembo
    @Jay-Kay-Buwembo 2 роки тому +1

    I like Neil Gaiman but a lot of his work underwhelms...

  • @The_Open_Book
    @The_Open_Book 2 роки тому

    I think what you describe leaks into Gaiman's The Graveyard Book too! (I read the graphic novel version) and I kept getting wound around on small inconsequential adventures of the protagonist while growing up, and feeling utterly blue balled when he finally brought up the inciting plot event again only at the very end. The stories themselves were all very amusing but I started asking myself what I was doing there*, you know?
    Although, I also read The Ocean at the End of the Lane and loved it like I've never loved a soft magic book before (I typically struggle quite a bit with fantastical descriptions and this one just worked!).
    So I think you're right. As overarching and complicated as his universes/stories might be, if you're a reader that relies on engagement through plot, payoffs, or continuity, he's pretty hard to get into. Thanks for your thoughts, as always!

  • @caitlinjones5984
    @caitlinjones5984 2 роки тому

    Thank you for this, I had never been able to put my finger on the things that bothered me and didn't click for me in his writing. His writing can be very VIBES in his short stories, metaphors and leading you but holding back on delivering, or possibly meandering into an ending with no conclusion other than what you feel. I've learned to love them more and understand more as I've grown up, reading American Gods, his short stories etc in high school and then revisiting over and over later in life. The Ocean at the End of the Lane is so beautiful and heartbreaking and like you said, had a tight narrative. I feel he does his best when he's telling his own fairytales Like Ocean, Stardust, and Coraline.
    Also, I super enjoyed the end with the old norse God and the children he had drowned to save his town, it was the part I remembered best other than The Internet was a pudgy white teenager with bad acne, that was just so on point for the time it was written.

  • @lilchief1117
    @lilchief1117 2 роки тому

    I generally tended towards fantastical, overtly magical stories, like Percy Jackson or Harry Potter, for example, but I really like how ordinary things feel in a lot of Gaiman's books, but then you get some moments of "Huh, that seems a little odd" before you're like "Yah, there's definitely something going on here".
    My favorite thus far is Anansi Boys. The audio book features some amazing performances and I love what Gaiman does with Anansi's stories that I heard as an African American kid & others from Ghana to Jamaica grew up with

  • @interro_liv9185
    @interro_liv9185 2 роки тому

    What a fantastic analysis! I also struggled with American Gods, Sandman and also Ocean. However, I greatly enjoyed Anansi Boys and Neverwhere. Maybe it's because they were a smidge more focused than the aforementioned books?

  • @lostboi2271
    @lostboi2271 2 роки тому +3

    Could you perhaps post links to the beautiful artwork behind you? I'd really appreciate it
    Other than that I'll just continue watching the video now

  • @blablablair1
    @blablablair1 2 роки тому

    The Ocean at the End of the Lane is honestly my favorite novel. So lyrical, poignant, even cryptic. I love returning to it from time to time.

  • @ArcaneAvian19
    @ArcaneAvian19 2 роки тому +1

    So I've only read American Gods, but I think the thing that appeals to me most is sorta the vibe. The feeling and ebb and flow of the world. The sense of all these greater forces and ancient traditions, these powers beyond our understanding, waging wars and bidding for power.
    And yet, they're sort of... pathetic. They're disconnected from their context, they've been marooned in this large, empty, mixed up land, and they feel like their power has slipped away and they don't even properly know themselves anymore.
    And it hits at these feelings about the nature of culture, the nature of America, the dark and dangerous and bright and beautiful and everything we can imagine and everything we've forgotten.

  • @NedTalbert
    @NedTalbert 2 роки тому +1

    I really like his norse mythology, its packed with storytelling and informationl, beautify written.

  • @moonleafteaofthemonth
    @moonleafteaofthemonth 2 роки тому +1

    Neil Gaiman's definitely one of those authors that just seems to have a wellspring of ideas and doesn't let much if anything confine him, if that makes sense. Like when I'm writing, I find myself getting concerned about certain genre mechanics, and I can't imagine that he's all that concerned about that when he's writing. I'm currently reading his short story collection "Trigger Warning", and it's just wonderful. As much as I love Stardust, American Gods, The Ocean at the End of the Lane, The Graveyard Book, and The Sandman, I still think Neverwhere is my favorite. He literally put the urban in urban fantasy with that one. Not the first one to do that, mind, but still my favorite. One of my favorite audiobooks too.

    • @moonleafteaofthemonth
      @moonleafteaofthemonth 2 роки тому

      Oh yes and Good Omens. Love that Good Omens. Big Good Omens fan me.

  • @Manormouse-04
    @Manormouse-04 2 роки тому +1

    This reminds me of Victor Hugo.

  • @yog-sothothery5720
    @yog-sothothery5720 2 роки тому +2

    I read American gods back in junior high I loved the book.

  • @LADYCLOVER18
    @LADYCLOVER18 2 роки тому

    My favorite Gaiman books IS The Ocean at the End of the Lane (I didn't put Good Omens because it's a wonderful collaboration with Sir Terry Pratchett and not JUST a Neil Gaiman novel). I was starting to write it down when you mention it, hahaha. I'm glad you like it too :)

  • @jezackr3500
    @jezackr3500 2 роки тому +2

    As someone who fell in and out of love and in again with Gaiman's writing a lot during my formative years, I kinda see where you're coming from and kinda see why. I have some gripes with his manner of writing and the way he builds his protagonists and so on, as every writer has a certain manner one vibes with or not.
    A thing that I can say with surety is that NG has a massively varied library that is hard to match by 'modern' writers - novels, comic books, poems, short stories, articles. This is something that I think modern audiences rarely take into account and explore - book authors nowadays are focused on pumping out book after book of a successful series, each almost the same, but just about different than the last one to keep interest, not too long and not too short, written in a direct snappy prose to keep turning these pages... and I can see how a reader can get conditioned to these sort of books and discouraged when encountering something else.
    Rarely ever an author nowadays is allowed to move away from their Signature StyleTM and experiment. Neil is, sadly, an example of a dying breed of an author that wanted to give you an experience more than a story to chew through, that took you along on a journey not sent you out to get groceries from a list.
    I am personally a so-so fan of NG's novels, but his short stories are something that largely formed my reading taste. They are a great way to start building understanding how Neil builds on his ideas and what one can expect from him as a writer.
    I think that with the sudden popularity of Sandman and Good Omens, more and more people will discover Gaiman's writing and be hit in the face with a fact that this isn't just 'the guy who wrote creepy-child-book Coraline' - that the spread is varied here and that the author's voice speaks loud an clear with opinions and ideas you are kinda expected to muse on. Sandman is not a 'binge it and move on' story so many modern fantasy became.

  • @punkinholler
    @punkinholler 2 роки тому +1

    Neverwhere is one of my favorites of his and it has fewer detours than some of his work. Few people talk about it but I think it's brilliant. That said, The Ocean at the End of the Lane is the best thing he's ever written, IMHO