This video is irrelevant for 99% of raiders. Unless you're going for world firsts, or speed running there is no information here that is useful to an average raiding guild. EDIT: The rolling ignite information can be used by an average guild. EDIT 2: The title was updated for speed clearing. Credit where credit is due, this video is very useful for that purpose :)
This is right, the tue behind the world first racing guild is that they dont represente the average population, so blizzard should not balance the game around them. My guild always got the first server kills but we never got this crazy amount of warriors, or rogues, it is really difficult to gear up so many chars of the same class, you will waste a lot of gear a lot of drama etc. Our roster was more normal, bring the player not the class.
+Your Wrong I'm not a speed runner, so no. A better title would of been "The Best Raid Compositions for speed running In Classic WoW - From MC to Naxx"
I think you missed the entire point, the point wasn't about speed running. It was using speed runs / optimized raids to exemplify what classes to prioritize depending on what raid tier you are doing.
Some extra information about healer rankings: Priests get really good with full tier 2 and can maintain top healer status into Naxx (even though they generally wear full T2 in Naxx because its BiS forever) thanks to the 8 piece set bonus. Paladins are very efficient particularly in later raids but in terms of HPS and tank healing druids are arguably better at all levels of content - hots are very powerful even though only one druid will be able to blanket them on the raid. Druids are not just brought for combat rez and innervate, if anything they're brought more for faerie fire and mark since those are much more valuable than a rez you might use once per raid and innervate which is used on the druid half of the time for extra HPS (if a good priest runs out of mana on most boss fights hes doing something wrong). I think of the vanilla healers kind of like the 3 tank specs in TBC - they're all viable, one is a better all rounder than the others (priest), but the others have important niches that make them valuable healers to bring. Also you really want minimum two warlocks for curse of the elements and curse of recklessness - curse of reck is arguably better even in Naxx because it boosts damage of all melee which in total is often more than the total mage damage.
@@troydenbrum2979 It actually is in many cases depending on the needs of the fight. At the very least it's close enough that there is significant theorycrafting debate about if you should wear 8/8 t2 all the way to the end of Naxx.
@@TheHyperion11 I can totally see it still being viable, but even in just AQ (pre c'thun), swapping out only tier pieces, you can keep 3pc, swap out 5 pieces and gain 126~ healing and some other stats. With T3 you'd probably gain over 200 and even more stats. T2 8pc Does give you a 2nd renew that will scale with other non T2 slot items as well, with a 100% [20% per tick] coefficient. The hot is worth ~40 HPS per target with only T2 unenchanted equipped. You would have to find a breakpoint in +healing/stats (through only items in the t2 gear slots) to warrant breaking it.
take a quick look under those bosses debuffs you can clearly see the Crystal yield buff applied to the boss immediately which lowers that bosses def by 200 and stacked in all the private servers. This is why they brought all the Melee because you could drop the bosses armor to 0. This cannot be done in classic WoW the most you can do is use 1 but that would push off another important buff from the boss. The only ungoro crystals youll see is the armor buff for the tank the spirit buff for the casters and the explosive crystals because you can have all 40 people hit the boss for 300 dmg with the crystal = 12k free dmg
@@mezz9159 because I used a simple thing called (MATH) oh gosh and something called (RESEARCH) oh my god! to look up how much dmg it is per crystal and 12k dmg for FREE instantly at the start of a fight is quite a bit.
Everything you have just said is why i will be joining a casual raiding guild that does not care about the optimum setup. How boring is this game going to be if everyone is playing the same thing. Oh wait that's BFA. Keep forgetting people are blaming blizzard when its actually the player base killing the game.
That's like complaining about anything competitive. A lot of people also enjoy to excel at their class and the game in general, which a guild is necessary. If it's not for you than that's fine.
I am not saying it is wrong to excel at your class and it is always good to have competition. I was a top resto shaman on twisting nether for season one of mythic +. I was clearly not the best shaman on the realm but the thing I noticed was that I could not get in to Mythic + groups because I played a shaman, so all the players who were good at shaman obviously moved to other classes to be included in the content. The player base not blizzard decided shamans were not best for that content so I was excluded by the player base even though I could do a better job than most healers and was forced to play with a warrior tank which was not very good at that time and between us both working together we still had a very respectful IO score. Moving on to Mythic raids. I cleared every boss in the first raid on mythic but got replaced on the last because they were finally able to replace me by a healing class that was "meta". In my opinion the guild took longer to take down the boss because of this move, player skill was not taken into consideration. The point I am trying to make is it's the player base that decides the Meta and the player base that decides to make things easy. It's only a small percentage of people in WoW that play by the meta but this then rubs off on the lower skilled players making it harder to get into content and therefor finding it harder to do things as a group. All I said in previous comment was I won't be playing with people who play only optimised setup's because I want to fully enjoy the game no matter how long that takes. Not run out of content in the first 3-4 months. I actually do think the top players will have all content done within a month. Rightly so they are going for world first and that is what they enjoy.
You just showed us raid frames... u don’t even fully understand the real reasons why certain classes are brought. Druid is for hotw, ff and strong hots. Priest are increased when casters are increased due to PI. Warlocks are brought for curses. Hunters for tranq. Paladins for their unique buffs. Shamans for totem twisting wf and threat reduc. Rogues for kicks and ability to drop threat. Mages for max caster dps. Warriors for max melee dps. (This is strictly for high end PS raiding) healing doesn’t matter as bosses die so quick. So the minimum number of the non top dps classes are brought as required.
@Alistair Bolden World buffs aren't so easily obtained though in retail-classic, since everyone and their mom is killing Onyxia/Nef nonstop, having them on perma cooldown. Most private servers had no cooldown on worldbuffs.
maybe you should look at raid comps for MC at very early stage of the server. 20man melee stacking speed run is with t2 guys and stuff and u wont do that on a fresh server due to high gear dependency. Im interested in the comps of MCs first clears
Indeed, it is also rather stupid to show only the early bosses that go down quickly to this composition. I assume they switched in some healers once they get to Ragnaros and Deathwing, because they will not fall over in seconds...
I suppose the first raid that clears MC will consist of a lot of hunters and mages. For the simple reason that these are the onese who likely ding 60 first and you'll start as soon as you have enough tanks/healers and then just use whatever DPS already are 60 at the time.
I have been watching SkarmTanks channel and it has made me realize how good druids are in Raids for utility/tanking/healing (all 3 during raid, not just one). I can't wait to see how the meta will change from vanilla to now. Most people wont be interested in playing the game the way shown in the video.
Bucky Performance honestly the content is forgiving enough that it frankly doesn’t matter, the hardest part is going to be finding 40 players who are competent, if 5 of them are druids it’s not going to stop you from clearing mc
Don't get stuck with the Druid haters. Not only is druid one of the most FUN class to play in vanilla (precisely because of the HotW build you're referring to), but it is a class that can perform key roles in ALL aspects of the game (5man, 10man, 20man, 40man, PvP, etc.) really well without having to sacrifice much talents/performance to do so. For instance, in order to play the HotW tree (for Tank/Heal) you only realistically sacrifice 1 talent from the Resto tree that is very good (Gift of Nature), in order to gain all the benefits from the Feral tree; and the 20% Intellect from Heart of the Wild (Feral tree) makes you have one of the biggest mana pool in the game for healers which is not negligible especially for intense cleansing/decurse fights where other classes cannot help. On top of that, Rank 4 Healing Touch is the most mana-efficient heal in the entire game (in terms of Mana/Heal ratio), and you'll be on par or sometimes better than Pallies for Main Tank healing due to HT R4 but you also add HoTs on top of it which Pallies can't. If you encounter real haters in your guild (maybe don't stay there?), just let them have their 2-3 warriors as tanks and let them be jerks about it, if you're okay with it. But on fight where you need a 3-4th tank you can just step in for that fight, do what you gotta do, and then move on with healing most of the raid. I think most people's idea of "droods can't tank" is that they imagine them being 1st and 2nd tank for an entire raid and they're afraid of their spot being taken. Although it IS possible to be 1st-2nd tank for your raid as Druid, you can also simply use your HotW build to provide the extra 3rd-4th tank needed for SOME fights and perform as well as any Warriors for that spot. Although it is sad to see it, there's still a lot of Druid haters out there. But don't worry too much, most people now knows that they are good at whichever role they fulfill - haters aren't the majority, at least on private servers. And trust me, once the DPSes and Heals are going to waiting 30mins for a Tank to join their 5/10/20man groups, they'll be more than grateful for a DRUID Tank to join if it allows them to get their loots (provided you are able to Tank decently, of course).
Priest don't heal more than paladins, they are considered more for extra shackles. Which is a side effect of not running hunters. So yeah guilds will pick their poison. Going 3 hunters might be the best call because of the gear that needs to be split.
All of these raid comps that stack melee rely on private server boss armor values and armor debuff stacking, as well as old boss parry chance values. All of these things have been proven to be wrong in the beta. All of those comps probably won't work in classic.
Yep, due to the fact that hunters don't have melee hit problems, there will be more hunters in early raids for steady DPS and threat control, and as few as possible melee to stand in the fire and pull agro. A few rogues for steady melee damage and a few warriors that can offtank and specced fury for improved battleshout.
Itll work just fine, armor values arent "THAT" different. Look at melee DPS from the actuall 2006 vanilla screenshots i provided from kungen's stream. rogues / warr are pretty much on the same level.
@@Punkrat actually it will be off by quite a bit as the meta in private servers was to gather ungoro crystals and use them to drop the bosses armor to 0 you can't do that in classic.
guys remember one thing: in MC and BWL armour drops that only ONE class can equip. So even if 8 warriors, 2 hunters would be best it would take MUCH longer to equip/gear them all than 5 warriors 5 hunters (class armour as well as melee/ranged weapons). Later on these settings we see at the beginning might be correct but I thing a lot of people dont want any item drop wasted at the beginning of the game or play half a year until all 10+ warrior/mages are geared. Warlocks can also summon people and since healthstones/soulstones/summons require a shard (inventory place is limited) taking a few warlocks more would ensure you dont run out of shards. I think I will play 3 classes, druid (i try tank), warlock, paladin (heal or nightfall retri).
@@boots911 that might be true, but hunters can equip tier 1. It might be not BIS but it will give them some decent gear. I dont know right now what is BIS for classes in MC but it will take FOREVER if 15+ people want ONE item and imagine that item has very bad drop RNG. I would rather have a high chance to get an item with some minor improvement than a low chance for an BIS item (at least at the beginning of the game). Must be frustrating to play with 7-9 other warriors and knowing chances to get loot are
@@Anno1602player you realize that there's no avoiding 15 people wanting 1 item? Items aren't made for specific classes besides tier sets. For example all casters want spell power, mp5, and intellect. All physical classes want hit, and crit. Certain items are all time BIS for multiple classes.
@@boots911 thats true but there are some items only one class can use. Imagine 7 mages, 3 warlocks. rings, cloaks, weapons with spellhit, spellcrit are desired by both mages and warlocks. However since mages deal more damage then warlocks the raid will benefit more if mages get them first. Therefore a hardcore progression guild will equip their mages first. Getting these items are pretty difficult (you need a lot of dkp or /random 100 luck). But there are also Tier 1 drops only one class can use. As far I know the drop rates are equal for all classes. It will be much harder to get T1 armor set if you roll against 6+ of your own class rather then just roll against one or two others. So even if I know there is no/little chance to get that imba spellcaster ring i wouldnt have a problem as long i know I do have a pretty decent chance to get T1 warlock chest because there are only 3 warlocks and one already has it.
The boss resistance and armor values are not correct on private servers. Also, will armor reduction debuffs stack or not? Its gonna be cool to see if the new values will change the meta for classic.
There is always a cookie cutter composition. The main reason why you can't just stack 30 Warriors is gearing them would be close to impossible. There were raids composed of single classes (like 35 Hunters/Warriors/Mages) doing Ragnaros in less than 90sec. Those were for fun though and all of them were geared in separate raids.
Yo Punkrat, I have been watching almost every video you post for the past couple months. I have a similar story to yours in the matter of when you started playing WoW and your nostalgia you get from it. I started about 2 years younger than you did and still play today. If you’d like I’d love to connect further and learn more about the experience you’ve had
Anyone have any experience with raiding with a visual handicap? I used to raid in Vanilla and TBC as the MT for a guild that cleared BWL, a large portion of AQ40 and some Naxx (Knights of Steel and later Fiasco on Sylvanas (EU)), but I never got to see the true end-game. Now I would like to do so, but a couple of years ago I sustained some serious occular nerve damage and as a result my peripheral vision is really bad. I can see what I am looking at directly perfectly, but things that happen a few centimeters below or to the left of it I do not register. (Below a lot worse then to the left). I am wondering if anyone has any experience with raiding with such a visual handicap, is it possible? And if so, what roles/classes would you recommend? I prefer being tank or healer. I don't think I could raid-heal since I visually can't keep track of that many health-bars, but perhaps MT-healer? As a tank I can imagine some problems when having to react quickly to adds and changing targets (4 horsemen for example), but tanking things like Onyxia, Ragnaros, Deathwing, etc I don't expect my visual limitations to be a problem... The thing I worry most about is being able to notice fire and such (things on the ground below me) in time. Debuffs that require reactions can be handled by placing that part of the UI within my vision but like I said, things that happen below my character are pretty much invisible to me... :-/
The problem with playing a reactive role (such as tanking or healing) in a raid is that there is not neccesarily a set rotation, if you were to play a ranged dps that would allow you to focus more on environmental threats and less on your dps rotation. Pretty much automating the rotation is probably the best way to perform the best :P
@Riouh Dps has to switch targets for add phases though. I am afraid I would be slow to react because I don't see the adds coming... Other then that I agree, anyone can spam frostbolts in MC... ;-)
So pretty much, after MC and BWL, as a hunter I'm screwed....and mine as well create an alt mage/warrior/rogue because hunters suck at later phases... kinda lame how Blizzard screwed hunters....
I feel like now that everyone has the idea that if you role a warrior you are going to get a spot in raids is going to lead my druid to get a decent spot in raiding. If you have all the warriors and rogues geared then maybe you could just take all melee but it is going to take forever get them all geared. You are much better off just taking a couple from each class so that you actually have a geared raid group for the next patch. Not to mention that the idea of "you wouldn't take x class if they didn't have x ability" is just silly, Of course, that's why you are taking that class. That's like saying you wouldn't take a rogue if they couldn't auto-attack, that is basically the only reason they are there and if they didn't have those few skills then they probably wouldn't be a class in the game.
@dick McGibbon Basically just saying it would take way too long to gear a full raid worth of Warriors and Rogues if you wanted to go with the melee strat. Also, saying that you won't take a class if it didn't fulfill the main role of the class is a silly statement because each class has a role and if it didn't perform that role then it would no longer even be a class. This is what I get for trying to take my thoughts and write them out in the short amount of time I am on the toilet.
@@Whiteliger1 You don't need 10 warriors geared in T2 to clear MC. You need them geared to their teeth to clear it in 20 mins. Also, I would be sad if I rolled a hunter only to kite the trash. Tho it makes your role unique and some ppl would like that. Not my cup of tea. Point is , 99% of the guilds wont be doing these kind of speed clears so roll what you want *. Learn about your class , itemization , rotations. Learn boss mechanics. Get reasonably good at you're always gonna get a spot in raids. *dont play moonkin or ret :)
Check out SkarmTank, He is making me realize that although feral DPS kinda sucks, Feral tanking is very viable, and even maybe better early in MC vs warriors for a lot of bosses.
@@durkadur27 but... that IS the case. druid's threat is just AMAZING, while his tankiness is quite a bit higher than warrior's early. exclusion are some bosses, like chromaggus, but overall they can tank quite well. also, MC is quite easy (always has been)
@@durkadur27 well, you have your own way to do things and your own "prejudices" or beliefs. i know for a fact that any hardcore guild, especially those pursuing realm firsts will use a druid MT for the entire MC and even onyxia (on alliance at least due to fear ward). gearing up a feral takes way less than gearing up a warrior and on the plus side, a druid with both armor trinkets, inspiration and armor pot has 75% or really close to 75% damage reduction from armor vs bosses, while possessing a significantly higher health pool and generating about twice as much threat as warriors do (with MCP). threat will be a HUGE issue early on as your DPS dictates how much mana will your healers have - the sooner the fight is over, the less risky it is - in other words, the more DPS you can pump out without pulling aggro, the better it is - and druid surpasses a warrior by a huge margin. skarm also tanked the entire vanilla content with his feral - i know, i know, you're gonna mention how private servers got everything wrong and how bosses aren't doing the correct damage. and you're not wrong, bosses on private servers are doing MORE damage than they will do on classic. naxx scripting was done purely as a speculation as there wasn't enough data available and the philosophy was that it's better to overbuff bosses than make them weaker. so yeah, if a druid can tank that on private servers and even outperform a warrior during high DPS fights, there should be 0 problems on classic, i guarantee it.
Plus Druid’s hots seem do be under rated. Plus as a priest main tank healer in vanilla it was nice to have Druid hot rolling with renew. Plus druids can hot whole raid on boss zeroing rad health mechanics
Druid HOTs are under-rated because the priests/pallies in the raid top up un-necessarily, and a lot of the hot goes to over-healing. If you are working with a team of healers that understand that the tank/raid doesn't absolutely have to be full health all the time, then the HOTs start to show their value, and the druid can even use the innervate on some one besides the priest, because the priest isn't OOM :p
These are the optimal setups for raids when guilds are trying to speed run. 99% of players should not use this as a guide for picking a class. It depends what kind of player/person you are but druids can be a ton of fun. No other class can give such a varied play style.
That initial stacking of warriors and rogues... Why no enhancement shamans? Arn't they kings of quick burst and then fizzles out? If you have really quick fights then their value should grow to a useful level right? Or maybe I'm missing something...
1 they use 2 handers, meaning that they'll barely be able to get a swing off before the mob is dead. 2. They don't cleave particularly well. (other than CL, but your tanks won't appreciate shammys pulling with that :p) 3. windfury is just not frequent enough in terms of PPM , and that the biggest burst an enhancement shamans have.
Hey Punkrat, do you think raids will be able to be pugged? I started late vanilla, and never got to raiding. Now my life has changed and I can't play on a schedule. so raid team will not be an option for me. I still hope to see the raids tho. What are your thoughts on this? Once again thanks for the great content.
Pugged Raid is possible. I’ve seen it happen on Private Server and also because MC and BWL are generally easy to do especially MC. It’s better if you play class that can fulfill certain roles like a Healer or owning Nightfall/Annihilator and you can offtank.
MC is pugged easily, more so for guilds who are looking to get their main tanks Thunderfury after BWL becomes Progression. T1 is also pugged as guilds can use it to see prospective raiders in a raid. Pugs will start to drop off at BWL as far as 40 mans, you may see a few slots in later content if there are absences, but most don't look to bring pugs to AQ 40 & Naxx. ZG and sometimes AQ 20 are also pugged a bit.
@dick McGibbon yeah but guild typically means a roster of 40-50 core members who can do a schedule. Which is my problem. I might be able to play 3 hours straight or only 5 min. I only know that on the day itself.
Man is impossible make naxx with out depoison + decurse . ! Having 10 decursers on raid is minimum for naxx. You can not compare the actual naxx with that of the private servers. The time / damage of the curses in the private servers that I played were very wrong.
Mages do more damage that warlocks because warlocks are forced to sacrifice using a curse DoT on the boss for curse of elements, which buffs the mages. Due to the debuff limit this is obviously what's best for the raid damage overall, but has nothing to do with warlocks being inferior to mages
Just join a guild that doesnt do speed runs. not like its default to make a setup like this for people who dont speed run, generic guilds will still use 3-5 warlocks.
@punkrat I actually didn't know that they bring those aswell, as I watch your vids for info maybe also include that info instead of being toxic to your fan base?
This must be based on private server data I cleared Naxxramas in original wow don’t remember warriors being gods at dps most raid comps I raided with we had 6-8 warriors maximum and only for off tanking.
you don't think that people will advance the meta of a game in 15 years? The neckbeards of the PS community tryhard to a degree that you never did. Progress for instance, had multiple warrs rank to 14 for the 1h weapons, each of them having edgemasters (this MIGHT be overpowered on private servers, but just to point out how tryhard they go), then they gather every world buff (including the blasted land ROIDS), even getting themselves mind-controlled by a horde priest to recieve Warchiefs blessing.
On private servers you can stack armor reduction, while in original, it was impossible, and bosses should have higher dodge chance, so melee set up should be not as good. If I remember correctly best way to blast MC is to stuck frost mages. They pile tons of frost debuff and as range you getting ez on agro. Back at vanilla time, mage raid was able to put ragna down super fast. They almost zerg him w/o tank...
Armor reduction works exactly the same way on private servers that it does in vanilla - there's plenty of evidence for how armor reduction debuffs worked in vanilla. And having higher parry on bosses makes little difference to melee since they hit the boss from behind.
Threat isnt that much of a issue if you have a Fury Prot or a Feral tank. The issue with why people bring less Lock is because the are regard as a Utility/DPS hybrid more than pure DPS caster like Mages do. Also, Lock have quite a bit of hit issue
@@lolwhatever7307 if you're top geared.... and u have already your -30% agro with tranq air totem for example.... and u still hit threat ceiling ..what is more valuable ...150-200 some AP trinket that will boost your damage by ...10-12% or -70% threat for that time you can do leash out all the damage and still drop in threat severely, allowing you to go full bananas with your crits. If encounter is threat sensitive it is absolute beast, otherwise ofcourse you can use other trikets. Actually it is VERY VERY good for ignite rolling mage. We had that in our guild in vanilla. 1 mage specs full fire crit (scourch build) and have a boomkin in his party for +3 spell crit. You can stack ignite indefinitelly because mage keeps ignite rolling and it won't drop... and for that it is very usefull to have -70% threat,... that helps alot.
It's got nothing to do with threat reduction. (Though, that doesn't help.) The issue is damage numbers. Warlocks don't have Mage damage potential, period. Especially when a Lock can cast COE for them. Just watch the examples he showed of ignite ticks. Mages are higher DPS by a relatively small margin, then you add in Ignite, CoE, and threat reduction and it's not close anymore.
Punkrat Warlocks in full BIS Naxx gear vs Mages in full BIS Naxx gear, The Warlocks will win if you actully did the numbers for it all and yes I'm also taking into account of the rolling ignite. And this is coming from a die hard Mage from both retail and Nost/Lights Hope.
I'm waiting just to have all the private server Warriors cry because Warriors I'm not as high DPS as people think private servers have normalized armor which can always be reduced to zero while vanilluxe could not
When I raided Back in vanilla(original wow), we only had 1 or 2 dps-warriors they could never follow rogues and mages on the dpsmeter. Only on waelstraz worriors shinned. Funny how people just don’t know and rely on private-server data.
@@TheHyperion11 that's not what I'm saying what I'm saying is this proof that the armor values are different and resistance values are non-existent in private servers
@Thelondonbadger IDK what pservers you've been playing but none of the popular recent ones allow crystal ward to stack or expose and sunder to stack. Also there is absolutely 0 evidence anywhere on the internet or in old videos that its impossible to reduce vanilla boss armor to 0. In TBC it was practically impossible because armor was high enough that all the armor reduction/penetration combined couldn't get it to 0, but in vanilla there is lots of evidence that no boss has more than 3731 armor. You could always have multiple rank 14s at the same time, in vanilla at first it was 0.2% of active pvpers could get the ranking points to get r14, then it was changed in 1.8 to 0.3% as long as the server is high pop (by vanilla standards) you can have 2-3 r14s on a server.
You shouldn't consider full donated bis gear...and yes private servers provide donation services... In that 40 man raid 50% r full bis donated gear.. I have played in private server for 6 years thats how the raiding scene in private servers work.. So that speed run is invalid..
Right? I noticed that too, since i'm planning to roll Feral for tanking dungeons for pre-bis, and have no problems being OT or healing for raids as required. I may even try out this power shifting/pummeler DPS kitty if needed, for the lols.
Great Vid! You forgot to mention that you would always bring one Druid for MotW even if he didn't have Innervate or CR. On the Warlock topic: They are inferior pretty much all the way to late AQ40/early Naxx. They will never out DPS the one Mage that holds the Ignite on Bosses but they excel at killing trash packs with their multi-dots. So if your aim is to clear the entire Raid as fast as posible you might want to bring some more Warlocks than just one. The main reason there is such an abundance of Warlocks in raids is that they are simply not that popular.
for every mage that holds the rolling ignite, there are four that have their damage reduced. The real reason that warlocks are less preffered probably comes down to threat issues
I don't really subscribe to the optimal class theories. Like you also gotta find those people that are willing to put in the work and during progression, while your team isnt as geared there are some differences. I am someone who for example loves to have a cat and a bear in his raids while progressing. Like last time I played on a vanilla server one of our top 3 DPS in Naxx was a Cat, also a Bear got us through AQ40 because he could switch to a healer on one boss and tank another. A lot of the druid stigma comes from the first patches where the class truly was trash, but keep in mind this is patch 1.12 and Druids got buffs/reworks through the entirety of vanilla and were really good at the end. (Just look at the video. 4 Druids in Naxx, 1 in MC and most classic Servers roll out the patches as they were, so the 4 Druid thing is where we start this time, although AQ does help.)
the reason why there are so little shamans in all the contant raid is because they aren t as many shamans in progress guilds who push content as i know from our server all the top guilds wanet to invite as many shamans as possible 8 if there are 8 shamans how are willing to raid
The thing is he mostly just describes the numbers on the screen, pointing out there are more mages in Naxx isn't an explanation. I liked some of Punkrat's videos but this one needed more of a script. I think that trying to think about "best raid compositions" with data on "average raid composition" is flawed. The relevant data would be from world firsts or speed runs. Druids are one of the least played classes on private servers so it isn't a huge surprise there are less of them in average raid compositions, that does not make them the worst class (although they may well be).
sorry man, but using pserver data combined with some 0.1% vanilla guild data (nihilum) this vid is rather heavily unreliable. Love most of your vids tho
you saw reference pictures from kungen that are from the original classic times that confirm the same thing. So in this case it doesnt matter that p servers arent accurate. In terms of optimal raidcomps in high end its the same outcome.
I have to disagree. I think palas are the top healers in classic. Didnt play one, I was on the Horde as shaman healer, but I sure lvled a bloodelf pala in BC. No other class stood a chance against my hps in early BC. And I can remember specifically that I leveled a paladin because they were the dominant healer in late vanilla and would also be the top healer in BC, cause the skilltree was known. Raiding in general was easier for Alliance in classic wow. Of course that has also to do with racials, 5% int, mace and sword weapons specialisation, fear ward and so on. But the most important factor was the paladin. Auras, top hps and 5 raidbuffs. Some of them are better than any other class buffs, like kings or Salvation...~~
@@n0tz034 clueless btw, the "wf" chasers set the meta for the rest of the raiding community. The point of showing those speed clears was to exemplify the different class priority at different levels. It wasnt to tell casual guilds to run 20 warriors / rogues. You can do whatever u want, as I stated, but I showed you aggregates then speed running comps. Find a middleground. You're off base with your comment, just projecting negativity for no reason.
You should make a video about the biggest fraud in wow content creators Asmongold, he claims on stream he played Vanilla and ranked up claiming the reason he couldnt get a high rank is he ran out of time and BC was released, if this was the honest truth he would have a feat of strength ach of the highest rank he got, like i have 2 General ach/titles one from Vanilla one from Cata, which means Asmongold didn't kill anyone in pvp or didnt play vanilla, also Warcraftrealms.com tracks all player data since Vanilla go ahead search yourself, heres Asmons his char wasnt seen till 2010 www.warcraftrealms.com/charsheet/121533813 another thing is i asked him about the reasons why and he's ignored every tweet every question ive asked because he knows he has no answers will be exposed and loose a lot of money.
@@mu551988 Along with thinking Mages had spellsteal, being suprised a Shadow priest could beat a warrior in duel, Not knowing the Pat Pvp film was done when there was a bug to get extra talent points, theres been loads of things like that in the classic beta, anyone that played vanilla can tell he didnt play.
@@mu551988 Its really obvious to me, you look at his first ever videos WOTLK, he has no online presence till WoTLK, and he claims that he loves making videos and thats what he wanted to do, why wait 5 years to post your first vid?
Yeah u wont learn anything from Asmon, ive played Warr since vanilla 2367 highest rating, he doesnt even use focus macros, and didnt know how to use stances. plays like a 1750 hero
![DONT Vendor These Items While Leveling In Classic WoW!! [Secret Value]](/img/n.gif)
This video is irrelevant for 99% of raiders. Unless you're going for world firsts, or speed running there is no information here that is useful to an average raiding guild.
EDIT: The rolling ignite information can be used by an average guild.
EDIT 2: The title was updated for speed clearing. Credit where credit is due, this video is very useful for that purpose :)
This is right, the tue behind the world first racing guild is that they dont represente the average population, so blizzard should not balance the game around them. My guild always got the first server kills but we never got this crazy amount of warriors, or rogues, it is really difficult to gear up so many chars of the same class, you will waste a lot of gear a lot of drama etc. Our roster was more normal, bring the player not the class.
Everyone knows this. Thanks for chiming in.
+Your Wrong I'm not a speed runner, so no.
A better title would of been
"The Best Raid Compositions for speed running In Classic WoW - From MC to Naxx"
its irrelevant for pugs, every guild that raids 2 or more times a week will at least try to optimize their raid comp.
I think you missed the entire point, the point wasn't about speed running. It was using speed runs / optimized raids to exemplify what classes to prioritize depending on what raid tier you are doing.
32 WARRIORS AND 8 SHAMAN.
And so the question becomes...who gets stuck wielding Nightfall?
@@richie616 for the warrior spells i guess
better question is who is using the annihilator
Curse of reck and faerie fire, 1 lock and druid needed :(
A good horde setup for pre aq40 would be 7 shamans, 1 priest, 1 druid, 1 warlock, 2 mages, 2 rouges, and 26 warriors, 32 is a bit extreme.
Some extra information about healer rankings:
Priests get really good with full tier 2 and can maintain top healer status into Naxx (even though they generally wear full T2 in Naxx because its BiS forever) thanks to the 8 piece set bonus.
Paladins are very efficient particularly in later raids but in terms of HPS and tank healing druids are arguably better at all levels of content - hots are very powerful even though only one druid will be able to blanket them on the raid. Druids are not just brought for combat rez and innervate, if anything they're brought more for faerie fire and mark since those are much more valuable than a rez you might use once per raid and innervate which is used on the druid half of the time for extra HPS (if a good priest runs out of mana on most boss fights hes doing something wrong).
I think of the vanilla healers kind of like the 3 tank specs in TBC - they're all viable, one is a better all rounder than the others (priest), but the others have important niches that make them valuable healers to bring.
Also you really want minimum two warlocks for curse of the elements and curse of recklessness - curse of reck is arguably better even in Naxx because it boosts damage of all melee which in total is often more than the total mage damage.
T2 8pc isnt better than being able to replace half or every piece of gear with better pieces.
@@troydenbrum2979 It actually is in many cases depending on the needs of the fight. At the very least it's close enough that there is significant theorycrafting debate about if you should wear 8/8 t2 all the way to the end of Naxx.
Druids are better than paladins in Vanilla. Ok ...
I remember Usually one priest got stuck wear T2 8 piece for free renew because I believe it stacked with renew.
@@TheHyperion11 I can totally see it still being viable, but even in just AQ (pre c'thun), swapping out only tier pieces, you can keep 3pc, swap out 5 pieces and gain 126~ healing and some other stats. With T3 you'd probably gain over 200 and even more stats. T2 8pc Does give you a 2nd renew that will scale with other non T2 slot items as well, with a 100% [20% per tick] coefficient. The hot is worth ~40 HPS per target with only T2 unenchanted equipped. You would have to find a breakpoint in +healing/stats (through only items in the t2 gear slots) to warrant breaking it.
take a quick look under those bosses debuffs you can clearly see the Crystal yield buff applied to the boss immediately which lowers that bosses def by 200 and stacked in all the private servers. This is why they brought all the Melee because you could drop the bosses armor to 0. This cannot be done in classic WoW the most you can do is use 1 but that would push off another important buff from the boss. The only ungoro crystals youll see is the armor buff for the tank the spirit buff for the casters and the explosive crystals because you can have all 40 people hit the boss for 300 dmg with the crystal = 12k free dmg
How do you know that when classic isn't even released? 12k dmg isn't that much btw.
@@mezz9159 because I used a simple thing called (MATH) oh gosh and something called (RESEARCH) oh my god! to look up how much dmg it is per crystal and 12k dmg for FREE instantly at the start of a fight is quite a bit.
@@charlesherbert1519 how wrong you were
Looks like the class changes from MC to Naxx gained a priest and lost a hunter. Everything else seemed to remain similar. Cool to see.
Everything you have just said is why i will be joining a casual raiding guild that does not care about the optimum setup. How boring is this game going to be if everyone is playing the same thing. Oh wait that's BFA. Keep forgetting people are blaming blizzard when its actually the player base killing the game.
Wtb the ability to like this 2920294884292020 times!!!
That's like complaining about anything competitive. A lot of people also enjoy to excel at their class and the game in general, which a guild is necessary. If it's not for you than that's fine.
I am not saying it is wrong to excel at your class and it is always good to have competition. I was a top resto shaman on twisting nether for season one of mythic +. I was clearly not the best shaman on the realm but the thing I noticed was that I could not get in to Mythic + groups because I played a shaman, so all the players who were good at shaman obviously moved to other classes to be included in the content. The player base not blizzard decided shamans were not best for that content so I was excluded by the player base even though I could do a better job than most healers and was forced to play with a warrior tank which was not very good at that time and between us both working together we still had a very respectful IO score. Moving on to Mythic raids. I cleared every boss in the first raid on mythic but got replaced on the last because they were finally able to replace me by a healing class that was "meta". In my opinion the guild took longer to take down the boss because of this move, player skill was not taken into consideration. The point I am trying to make is it's the player base that decides the Meta and the player base that decides to make things easy. It's only a small percentage of people in WoW that play by the meta but this then rubs off on the lower skilled players making it harder to get into content and therefor finding it harder to do things as a group. All I said in previous comment was I won't be playing with people who play only optimised setup's because I want to fully enjoy the game no matter how long that takes. Not run out of content in the first 3-4 months. I actually do think the top players will have all content done within a month. Rightly so they are going for world first and that is what they enjoy.
3:25 well you need at least one druid to buff motw regardless of innervate and BR
You just showed us raid frames... u don’t even fully understand the real reasons why certain classes are brought. Druid is for hotw, ff and strong hots. Priest are increased when casters are increased due to PI. Warlocks are brought for curses. Hunters for tranq. Paladins for their unique buffs. Shamans for totem twisting wf and threat reduc. Rogues for kicks and ability to drop threat. Mages for max caster dps. Warriors for max melee dps. (This is strictly for high end PS raiding) healing doesn’t matter as bosses die so quick. So the minimum number of the non top dps classes are brought as required.
This guy knows what he's talking about.
I trust punkrat over Sam wood
calm down there moonkin.
Is this progression comp, or speed run comp?
I'd imagine the comp changes as more people get BiS geared
@Alistair Bolden World buffs aren't so easily obtained though in retail-classic, since everyone and their mom is killing Onyxia/Nef nonstop, having them on perma cooldown. Most private servers had no cooldown on worldbuffs.
maybe you should look at raid comps for MC at very early stage of the server. 20man melee stacking speed run is with t2 guys and stuff and u wont do that on a fresh server due to high gear dependency.
Im interested in the comps of MCs first clears
Sup my hunter brother
Indeed, it is also rather stupid to show only the early bosses that go down quickly to this composition. I assume they switched in some healers once they get to Ragnaros and Deathwing, because they will not fall over in seconds...
@@Kholdaimon deathwing? doesnt exist in vanilla. gj
I meant Nefarian, made the same mistake at my other post. ;-)
I suppose the first raid that clears MC will consist of a lot of hunters and mages. For the simple reason that these are the onese who likely ding 60 first and you'll start as soon as you have enough tanks/healers and then just use whatever DPS already are 60 at the time.
"Geared for the content" -> Every fucking warrior and Rogue in the raid has grand marshal weapons in BWL...
I have been watching SkarmTanks channel and it has made me realize how good druids are in Raids for utility/tanking/healing (all 3 during raid, not just one). I can't wait to see how the meta will change from vanilla to now. Most people wont be interested in playing the game the way shown in the video.
You are in for a rude awakening.
Why is that? @@simonbuysse8559
Bucky Performance honestly the content is forgiving enough that it frankly doesn’t matter, the hardest part is going to be finding 40 players who are competent, if 5 of them are druids it’s not going to stop you from clearing mc
Don't get stuck with the Druid haters. Not only is druid one of the most FUN class to play in vanilla (precisely because of the HotW build you're referring to), but it is a class that can perform key roles in ALL aspects of the game (5man, 10man, 20man, 40man, PvP, etc.) really well without having to sacrifice much talents/performance to do so. For instance, in order to play the HotW tree (for Tank/Heal) you only realistically sacrifice 1 talent from the Resto tree that is very good (Gift of Nature), in order to gain all the benefits from the Feral tree; and the 20% Intellect from Heart of the Wild (Feral tree) makes you have one of the biggest mana pool in the game for healers which is not negligible especially for intense cleansing/decurse fights where other classes cannot help. On top of that, Rank 4 Healing Touch is the most mana-efficient heal in the entire game (in terms of Mana/Heal ratio), and you'll be on par or sometimes better than Pallies for Main Tank healing due to HT R4 but you also add HoTs on top of it which Pallies can't.
If you encounter real haters in your guild (maybe don't stay there?), just let them have their 2-3 warriors as tanks and let them be jerks about it, if you're okay with it. But on fight where you need a 3-4th tank you can just step in for that fight, do what you gotta do, and then move on with healing most of the raid. I think most people's idea of "droods can't tank" is that they imagine them being 1st and 2nd tank for an entire raid and they're afraid of their spot being taken. Although it IS possible to be 1st-2nd tank for your raid as Druid, you can also simply use your HotW build to provide the extra 3rd-4th tank needed for SOME fights and perform as well as any Warriors for that spot.
Although it is sad to see it, there's still a lot of Druid haters out there. But don't worry too much, most people now knows that they are good at whichever role they fulfill - haters aren't the majority, at least on private servers. And trust me, once the DPSes and Heals are going to waiting 30mins for a Tank to join their 5/10/20man groups, they'll be more than grateful for a DRUID Tank to join if it allows them to get their loots (provided you are able to Tank decently, of course).
lol druids
Druids, you want at least 1 druid for Thorns, Faerie Fire and Motw. Not just bres and innervate even if they of course are the major abilities
Don't forget to mention that against Onyxia the winning setup is always 40 priests.
Hail Dream Evil, Hail the Chosen Ones.
Priest don't heal more than paladins, they are considered more for extra shackles. Which is a side effect of not running hunters. So yeah guilds will pick their poison. Going 3 hunters might be the best call because of the gear that needs to be split.
All of these raid comps that stack melee rely on private server boss armor values and armor debuff stacking, as well as old boss parry chance values. All of these things have been proven to be wrong in the beta. All of those comps probably won't work in classic.
Yep, due to the fact that hunters don't have melee hit problems, there will be more hunters in early raids for steady DPS and threat control, and as few as possible melee to stand in the fire and pull agro. A few rogues for steady melee damage and a few warriors that can offtank and specced fury for improved battleshout.
Itll work just fine, armor values arent "THAT" different. Look at melee DPS from the actuall 2006 vanilla screenshots i provided from kungen's stream. rogues / warr are pretty much on the same level.
Punkrat it must be a full time job to reply to all these garbage comments. good content. keep up! ;)
@@Punkrat actually it will be off by quite a bit as the meta in private servers was to gather ungoro crystals and use them to drop the bosses armor to 0 you can't do that in classic.
Good video. Explained everything well
guys remember one thing: in MC and BWL armour drops that only ONE class can equip. So even if 8 warriors, 2 hunters would be best it would take MUCH longer to equip/gear them all than 5 warriors 5 hunters (class armour as well as melee/ranged weapons). Later on these settings we see at the beginning might be correct but I thing a lot of people dont want any item drop wasted at the beginning of the game or play half a year until all 10+ warrior/mages are geared. Warlocks can also summon people and since healthstones/soulstones/summons require a shard (inventory place is limited) taking a few warlocks more would ensure you dont run out of shards. I think I will play 3 classes, druid (i try tank), warlock, paladin (heal or nightfall retri).
Dps warriors should not need tier 1/2. Random drops are their BIS and most pieces are shared with rogues/hunters/rets
@@boots911 that might be true, but hunters can equip tier 1. It might be not BIS but it will give them some decent gear. I dont know right now what is BIS for classes in MC but it will take FOREVER if 15+ people want ONE item and imagine that item has very bad drop RNG. I would rather have a high chance to get an item with some minor improvement than a low chance for an BIS item (at least at the beginning of the game). Must be frustrating to play with 7-9 other warriors and knowing chances to get loot are
@@Anno1602player you realize that there's no avoiding 15 people wanting 1 item? Items aren't made for specific classes besides tier sets. For example all casters want spell power, mp5, and intellect.
All physical classes want hit, and crit.
Certain items are all time BIS for multiple classes.
@@boots911 thats true but there are some items only one class can use. Imagine 7 mages, 3 warlocks. rings, cloaks, weapons with spellhit, spellcrit are desired by both mages and warlocks. However since mages deal more damage then warlocks the raid will benefit more if mages get them first. Therefore a hardcore progression guild will equip their mages first. Getting these items are pretty difficult (you need a lot of dkp or /random 100 luck). But there are also Tier 1 drops only one class can use. As far I know the drop rates are equal for all classes. It will be much harder to get T1 armor set if you roll against 6+ of your own class rather then just roll against one or two others. So even if I know there is no/little chance to get that imba spellcaster ring i wouldnt have a problem as long i know I do have a pretty decent chance to get T1 warlock chest because there are only 3 warlocks and one already has it.
you bring druids for ff.
armor shred is criminally underrated.
curse of reck also. buffs all the physical as well as pushes the threat cap up.
The boss resistance and armor values are not correct on private servers. Also, will armor reduction debuffs stack or not?
Its gonna be cool to see if the new values will change the meta for classic.
I feel pretty exemplified right now, team.
I love how tbc fixed specs. Your close to optimal raid comp is pretty much one of each, then stack resto shaman + bm hunters/ warlock.
There is always a cookie cutter composition. The main reason why you can't just stack 30 Warriors is gearing them would be close to impossible. There were raids composed of single classes (like 35 Hunters/Warriors/Mages) doing Ragnaros in less than 90sec. Those were for fun though and all of them were geared in separate raids.
For Brutallus the best ranged group comp was 3 arcane mages, shadowpriest and elesham.
Yo Punkrat, I have been watching almost every video you post for the past couple months. I have a similar story to yours in the matter of when you started playing WoW and your nostalgia you get from it.
I started about 2 years younger than you did and still play today.
If you’d like I’d love to connect further and learn more about the experience you’ve had
The reason locks were scarce pre naxx is they didn't have 1.12 talents. No guilds generally didn't force you to have a soulstone lock. Don't lie.
Clearly he is referring to private server shenanigans here.
Listen to your videos every morning at work haha
What video editing software and mic do you use punkrat?
Anyone have any experience with raiding with a visual handicap?
I used to raid in Vanilla and TBC as the MT for a guild that cleared BWL, a large portion of AQ40 and some Naxx (Knights of Steel and later Fiasco on Sylvanas (EU)), but I never got to see the true end-game. Now I would like to do so, but a couple of years ago I sustained some serious occular nerve damage and as a result my peripheral vision is really bad. I can see what I am looking at directly perfectly, but things that happen a few centimeters below or to the left of it I do not register. (Below a lot worse then to the left).
I am wondering if anyone has any experience with raiding with such a visual handicap, is it possible?
And if so, what roles/classes would you recommend?
I prefer being tank or healer. I don't think I could raid-heal since I visually can't keep track of that many health-bars, but perhaps MT-healer? As a tank I can imagine some problems when having to react quickly to adds and changing targets (4 horsemen for example), but tanking things like Onyxia, Ragnaros, Deathwing, etc I don't expect my visual limitations to be a problem...
The thing I worry most about is being able to notice fire and such (things on the ground below me) in time. Debuffs that require reactions can be handled by placing that part of the UI within my vision but like I said, things that happen below my character are pretty much invisible to me... :-/
The problem with playing a reactive role (such as tanking or healing) in a raid is that there is not neccesarily a set rotation, if you were to play a ranged dps that would allow you to focus more on environmental threats and less on your dps rotation.
Pretty much automating the rotation is probably the best way to perform the best :P
deathwing isnt in vanilla man
I meant Nefarian, lol :)
@Riouh Dps has to switch targets for add phases though. I am afraid I would be slow to react because I don't see the adds coming... Other then that I agree, anyone can spam frostbolts in MC... ;-)
So pretty much, after MC and BWL, as a hunter I'm screwed....and mine as well create an alt mage/warrior/rogue because hunters suck at later phases... kinda lame how Blizzard screwed hunters....
ye u litterally have to be ur guilds best/pull hunter
You also bring Druids for M/GotW.
1 warrior 1pally 1 Druid 1 lock 1 priest the rest hunters
I feel like now that everyone has the idea that if you role a warrior you are going to get a spot in raids is going to lead my druid to get a decent spot in raiding. If you have all the warriors and rogues geared then maybe you could just take all melee but it is going to take forever get them all geared. You are much better off just taking a couple from each class so that you actually have a geared raid group for the next patch. Not to mention that the idea of "you wouldn't take x class if they didn't have x ability" is just silly, Of course, that's why you are taking that class. That's like saying you wouldn't take a rogue if they couldn't auto-attack, that is basically the only reason they are there and if they didn't have those few skills then they probably wouldn't be a class in the game.
@dick McGibbon Basically just saying it would take way too long to gear a full raid worth of Warriors and Rogues if you wanted to go with the melee strat.
Also, saying that you won't take a class if it didn't fulfill the main role of the class is a silly statement because each class has a role and if it didn't perform that role then it would no longer even be a class.
This is what I get for trying to take my thoughts and write them out in the short amount of time I am on the toilet.
@@Whiteliger1 You don't need 10 warriors geared in T2 to clear MC. You need them geared to their teeth to clear it in 20 mins.
Also, I would be sad if I rolled a hunter only to kite the trash. Tho it makes your role unique and some ppl would like that. Not my cup of tea.
Point is , 99% of the guilds wont be doing these kind of speed clears so roll what you want *. Learn about your class , itemization , rotations. Learn boss mechanics. Get reasonably good at you're always gonna get a spot in raids.
*dont play moonkin or ret :)
Could you provide a link to the stats you showed in the video? Thanks a lot!
I am surprised by the number of Shamans.
Totem buff limitations.
So, you say that I'll have troubles with having place in raids as a hunter?
Well, at least you still have the respect of those around you for playing such an interesting and complex class....
No you won't - not everyone's this hardcore, most guilds will take a handful of hunters gladly.
I’m going to be one of those 2.7 druids.
Check out SkarmTank, He is making me realize that although feral DPS kinda sucks, Feral tanking is very viable, and even maybe better early in MC vs warriors for a lot of bosses.
@@Kame682 hell no.
@@durkadur27 but... that IS the case. druid's threat is just AMAZING, while his tankiness is quite a bit higher than warrior's early. exclusion are some bosses, like chromaggus, but overall they can tank quite well. also, MC is quite easy (always has been)
@@LikeVenom18 I'll only let a druid tank for shits and giggles nothing serious.
@@durkadur27 well, you have your own way to do things and your own "prejudices" or beliefs. i know for a fact that any hardcore guild, especially those pursuing realm firsts will use a druid MT for the entire MC and even onyxia (on alliance at least due to fear ward). gearing up a feral takes way less than gearing up a warrior and on the plus side, a druid with both armor trinkets, inspiration and armor pot has 75% or really close to 75% damage reduction from armor vs bosses, while possessing a significantly higher health pool and generating about twice as much threat as warriors do (with MCP). threat will be a HUGE issue early on as your DPS dictates how much mana will your healers have - the sooner the fight is over, the less risky it is - in other words, the more DPS you can pump out without pulling aggro, the better it is - and druid surpasses a warrior by a huge margin. skarm also tanked the entire vanilla content with his feral - i know, i know, you're gonna mention how private servers got everything wrong and how bosses aren't doing the correct damage. and you're not wrong, bosses on private servers are doing MORE damage than they will do on classic. naxx scripting was done purely as a speculation as there wasn't enough data available and the philosophy was that it's better to overbuff bosses than make them weaker. so yeah, if a druid can tank that on private servers and even outperform a warrior during high DPS fights, there should be 0 problems on classic, i guarantee it.
Plus Druid’s hots seem do be under rated. Plus as a priest main tank healer in vanilla it was nice to have Druid hot rolling with renew. Plus druids can hot whole raid on boss zeroing rad health mechanics
Druid HOTs are under-rated because the priests/pallies in the raid top up un-necessarily, and a lot of the hot goes to over-healing. If you are working with a team of healers that understand that the tank/raid doesn't absolutely have to be full health all the time, then the HOTs start to show their value, and the druid can even use the innervate on some one besides the priest, because the priest isn't OOM :p
Isnt warlock 2nd or 3rd in dps in t3 (between him and warrior) with mage being 1st?
Sure, but still worse then a mage so no reason to bring them other then soulstones and healthstones
Warlock did good damage but more about utility than actual dps cause you want Mage more.
@@petterskoglund2228 they did more damage than all but 1 mage, the one that had the ignite...
Wait, shouldn't an old God Be The Last tier in an expansion? Wouldn't an old God be more powerful than one of the Lich King's lackeys?
so your thoughts on druids are pretty shit? was looking to roll one, dya think they are pretty much worthless outside of innervate/rebirth? cheers man
They are far from useless! Check out Ebbnflow here on youtube he does really good content on druids, showing how fun and valuable they can be :)
These are the optimal setups for raids when guilds are trying to speed run. 99% of players should not use this as a guide for picking a class.
It depends what kind of player/person you are but druids can be a ton of fun. No other class can give such a varied play style.
for naxx paladins take the cake and eat it too. #Exorcism+power infusion
That initial stacking of warriors and rogues... Why no enhancement shamans? Arn't they kings of quick burst and then fizzles out? If you have really quick fights then their value should grow to a useful level right? Or maybe I'm missing something...
1 they use 2 handers, meaning that they'll barely be able to get a swing off before the mob is dead.
2. They don't cleave particularly well. (other than CL, but your tanks won't appreciate shammys pulling with that :p)
3. windfury is just not frequent enough in terms of PPM , and that the biggest burst an enhancement shamans have.
Hey Punkrat, do you think raids will be able to be pugged? I started late vanilla, and never got to raiding. Now my life has changed and I can't play on a schedule. so raid team will not be an option for me. I still hope to see the raids tho.
What are your thoughts on this?
Once again thanks for the great content.
Pugged Raid is possible. I’ve seen it happen on Private Server and also because MC and BWL are generally easy to do especially MC. It’s better if you play class that can fulfill certain roles like a Healer or owning Nightfall/Annihilator and you can offtank.
@@tengu6160 thanks, I am either Going hunter for nostalgic reasons, or mage for some nice aoe farming.
MC is pugged easily, more so for guilds who are looking to get their main tanks Thunderfury after BWL becomes Progression.
T1 is also pugged as guilds can use it to see prospective raiders in a raid.
Pugs will start to drop off at BWL as far as 40 mans, you may see a few slots in later content if there are absences, but most don't look to bring pugs to AQ 40 & Naxx.
ZG and sometimes AQ 20 are also pugged a bit.
@@Visias-Games thanks, this only adds to my excitement about being able to play classic, and trying the end game content. 😊
@dick McGibbon yeah but guild typically means a roster of 40-50 core members who can do a schedule. Which is my problem. I might be able to play 3 hours straight or only 5 min. I only know that on the day itself.
Man is impossible make naxx with out depoison + decurse . !
Having 10 decursers on raid is minimum for naxx.
You can not compare the actual naxx with that of the private servers. The time / damage of the curses in the private servers that I played were very wrong.
not gonna lie, watching that first melee group just ravage that first boss was insane.
Mages do more damage that warlocks because warlocks are forced to sacrifice using a curse DoT on the boss for curse of elements, which buffs the mages. Due to the debuff limit this is obviously what's best for the raid damage overall, but has nothing to do with warlocks being inferior to mages
Damn, will I find it hard to find raid groups as a warlock once it’s aq40?
Just join a guild that doesnt do speed runs. not like its default to make a setup like this for people who dont speed run, generic guilds will still use 3-5 warlocks.
Thanks for the raiding tips, Jewish Drake!
Andreas Brandt lmfao
Is warlock good choice for casual player? :X I dont have time playing 20 hours a day as back in day :D
Yes warlocks have free mounts, pets that tank. As well as being very easy to level
In private servers, guilds were always recruiting warlocks. They're not that popular and you always need a few.
@Thelondonbadger Thank you for this! I going for Lock !
What about alliance versus no shamans
Looks like you just cut 2 hunters for 2 priests and that's the difference between mc and naxx (you need enough mages to keep the ignite rolling)
I thought you need more priests in naxx for MC for the first military wing fight...?
you do, he is talking about aggregates.
Druids bring Mark of the Wild buff, Faerie fire debuff, battle rez, innervate, hibernate for dragonkins ..
obviously
@punkrat I actually didn't know that they bring those aswell, as I watch your vids for info maybe also include that info instead of being toxic to your fan base?
This must be based on private server data I cleared Naxxramas in original wow don’t remember warriors being gods at dps most raid comps I raided with we had 6-8 warriors maximum and only for off tanking.
you don't think that people will advance the meta of a game in 15 years?
The neckbeards of the PS community tryhard to a degree that you never did. Progress for instance, had multiple warrs rank to 14 for the 1h weapons, each of them having edgemasters (this MIGHT be overpowered on private servers, but just to point out how tryhard they go), then they gather every world buff (including the blasted land ROIDS), even getting themselves mind-controlled by a horde priest to recieve Warchiefs blessing.
On private servers you can stack armor reduction, while in original, it was impossible, and bosses should have higher dodge chance, so melee set up should be not as good. If I remember correctly best way to blast MC is to stuck frost mages. They pile tons of frost debuff and as range you getting ez on agro. Back at vanilla time, mage raid was able to put ragna down super fast. They almost zerg him w/o tank...
Armor reduction works exactly the same way on private servers that it does in vanilla - there's plenty of evidence for how armor reduction debuffs worked in vanilla. And having higher parry on bosses makes little difference to melee since they hit the boss from behind.
@@TheHyperion11 Pretty sure, it was impossible, but if you can do this in beta, then mele meta sertanly comming to us.
Kinda funny that 3 of the strongest solo levelling clases in hunters, warlocks and druids are also 3 of the least represented classes in raiding.
Half Dead in the game
You just gotta be that 1 ultra-good one that gets invited and gets all the gear for ur class lol
if locks could mitigate threat more they'd do more damage :(
they would be able in nax with - threat trinkets//same as dps warriors.. and don't forget to put tranquil air totem in lock group )
Threat isnt that much of a issue if you have a Fury Prot or a Feral tank. The issue with why people bring less Lock is because the are regard as a Utility/DPS hybrid more than pure DPS caster like Mages do.
Also, Lock have quite a bit of hit issue
@@obeybosss -70% of threat for 20sec and lose 1 trinket slot or get -30% for free. L U L
@@lolwhatever7307 if you're top geared.... and u have already your -30% agro with tranq air totem for example.... and u still hit threat ceiling ..what is more valuable ...150-200 some AP trinket that will boost your damage by ...10-12% or -70% threat for that time you can do leash out all the damage and still drop in threat severely, allowing you to go full bananas with your crits. If encounter is threat sensitive it is absolute beast, otherwise ofcourse you can use other trikets. Actually it is VERY VERY good for ignite rolling mage. We had that in our guild in vanilla. 1 mage specs full fire crit (scourch build) and have a boomkin in his party for +3 spell crit. You can stack ignite indefinitelly because mage keeps ignite rolling and it won't drop... and for that it is very usefull to have -70% threat,... that helps alot.
It's got nothing to do with threat reduction. (Though, that doesn't help.) The issue is damage numbers. Warlocks don't have Mage damage potential, period. Especially when a Lock can cast COE for them. Just watch the examples he showed of ignite ticks. Mages are higher DPS by a relatively small margin, then you add in Ignite, CoE, and threat reduction and it's not close anymore.
Drake started playing WoW?
Hmmm this still didn't help me decide what to take into a raid. Priests.. shadow or healers. It doesn't say man
nice vid man :)
Punkrat Warlocks in full BIS Naxx gear vs Mages in full BIS Naxx gear, The Warlocks will win if you actully did the numbers for it all and yes I'm also taking into account of the rolling ignite. And this is coming from a die hard Mage from both retail and Nost/Lights Hope.
Excuses excuses. If average statistics says mage wins vs warlocks, and the opposite happens to you, consider changing ur mind
@@BrutalacePSN mate you should learn math, the rotations of the two classes and then lets talk again cause you clearly dont have a clue.
You miss a major feature of Druids. MOTW! They bring us because of that!
the most imporant part is faerie fire tbh, but the point was they bring certain utility...not to cover every single aspect of their class lol.
I didnt learn anything about aq raid comps
I'm waiting just to have all the private server Warriors cry because Warriors I'm not as high DPS as people think private servers have normalized armor which can always be reduced to zero while vanilluxe could not
When I raided Back in vanilla(original wow), we only had 1 or 2 dps-warriors they could never follow rogues and mages on the dpsmeter. Only on waelstraz worriors shinned. Funny how people just don’t know and rely on private-server data.
There's no evidence that armor reduction worked differently in vanilla than it does on private servers.
@@TheHyperion11 that's not what I'm saying what I'm saying is this proof that the armor values are different and resistance values are non-existent in private servers
@@TheHyperion11 ignore john wagz, he's an alcoholic.
@Thelondonbadger IDK what pservers you've been playing but none of the popular recent ones allow crystal ward to stack or expose and sunder to stack. Also there is absolutely 0 evidence anywhere on the internet or in old videos that its impossible to reduce vanilla boss armor to 0. In TBC it was practically impossible because armor was high enough that all the armor reduction/penetration combined couldn't get it to 0, but in vanilla there is lots of evidence that no boss has more than 3731 armor.
You could always have multiple rank 14s at the same time, in vanilla at first it was 0.2% of active pvpers could get the ranking points to get r14, then it was changed in 1.8 to 0.3%
as long as the server is high pop (by vanilla standards) you can have 2-3 r14s on a server.
You shouldn't consider full donated bis gear...and yes private servers provide donation services... In that 40 man raid 50% r full bis donated gear.. I have played in private server for 6 years thats how the raiding scene in private servers work.. So that speed run is invalid..
So the best classic guild used 4-5 druids while progressing naxx, interesting
Right? I noticed that too, since i'm planning to roll Feral for tanking dungeons for pre-bis, and have no problems being OT or healing for raids as required. I may even try out this power shifting/pummeler DPS kitty if needed, for the lols.
Great Vid!
You forgot to mention that you would always bring one Druid for MotW even if he didn't have Innervate or CR.
On the Warlock topic: They are inferior pretty much all the way to late AQ40/early Naxx.
They will never out DPS the one Mage that holds the Ignite on Bosses but they excel at killing trash packs with their multi-dots.
So if your aim is to clear the entire Raid as fast as posible you might want to bring some more Warlocks than just one.
The main reason there is such an abundance of Warlocks in raids is that they are simply not that popular.
for every mage that holds the rolling ignite, there are four that have their damage reduced. The real reason that warlocks are less preffered probably comes down to threat issues
Video should be renamed rolling ignite
40 Druids, fuck all the rest.
Mage looks so boring to play.
Fireball, Fireball, Fireball.
Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt.
Don't know who would want to play that.
peeps that like big deeps. Also farming with them is super fun.
good video, damn i was playing rogue in vanilla and had and alt priest, i was gonna roll warlock but i dunno now
1 Mage does more once they go Fire, the others lose to Warlocks.
World of Meleecraft is real in classic too x)
Sure, you go without Mark/Gift of the Wild and then tell me how your raiders feel.
world buffs are going to be slow in coming for a while.....
Yo is that drake?
Is that Drake?!
In Classic u won't be able to have R14 Gear while progressing in BWL...
That depends on what guild your in, doesn't it?
pvp is phase 2 and bwl is phase 3 so yes it will be possible.
Don't some of these players have "privilege" weapons like most pservers
maybe, but most of them stream frequently enough for people to call them out if they were given weapons.
@@disrupt94 all 40? C'mon
@@greischwitz you don't need 40 melee's with r14 weapons.
I don't really subscribe to the optimal class theories. Like you also gotta find those people that are willing to put in the work and during progression, while your team isnt as geared there are some differences. I am someone who for example loves to have a cat and a bear in his raids while progressing. Like last time I played on a vanilla server one of our top 3 DPS in Naxx was a Cat, also a Bear got us through AQ40 because he could switch to a healer on one boss and tank another. A lot of the druid stigma comes from the first patches where the class truly was trash, but keep in mind this is patch 1.12 and Druids got buffs/reworks through the entirety of vanilla and were really good at the end. (Just look at the video. 4 Druids in Naxx, 1 in MC and most classic Servers roll out the patches as they were, so the 4 Druid thing is where we start this time, although AQ does help.)
the reason why there are so little shamans in all the contant raid is because they aren t as many shamans in progress guilds who push content as i know from our server all the top guilds wanet to invite as many shamans as possible 8 if there are 8 shamans how are willing to raid
Saw "private server data" then proceeded to turn it off.
saw your subscriptions, then proceeded to cringe
@@Punkrat yeah, forgive me for having a daughter? K
@@scdogg444 you're delusional if you think private servers are that far off from what we will see in classic my friend.
@@Punkrat never said far off, but it's still not 100% accurate so it's just another video tha doesn't benefit anyone.
@@scdogg444 so wrong. and i used nihilum as reference as well.
Very boring, you just read the chart at us, no insight...
The whole video he explained it
The thing is he mostly just describes the numbers on the screen, pointing out there are more mages in Naxx isn't an explanation. I liked some of Punkrat's videos but this one needed more of a script. I think that trying to think about "best raid compositions" with data on "average raid composition" is flawed. The relevant data would be from world firsts or speed runs. Druids are one of the least played classes on private servers so it isn't a huge surprise there are less of them in average raid compositions, that does not make them the worst class (although they may well be).
Pally's outscale all healers.............
>prívate server data
Yeah we all know how those end up
Private Server Bullshit....
Kungen wasn't on a pserver idiot.
sorry man, but using pserver data combined with some 0.1% vanilla guild data (nihilum) this vid is rather heavily unreliable. Love most of your vids tho
u wot m8
When you get those melee to 60, the ranged will have cleared mc. Just sayin...
*Laughs in dungeon-cleave*
"private server data". Oh, so none of this even matters, because private servers got all kinds of things wrong, especially in raids.
as I have heard in a few videos, they are in average even harder than vanilla
you saw reference pictures from kungen that are from the original classic times that confirm the same thing. So in this case it doesnt matter that p servers arent accurate. In terms of optimal raidcomps in high end its the same outcome.
when you attempt to discredit the hard work and dedication these pserver players have
@Thelondonbadger When you'remad a server OWNER gets a raid slot. smh.
I have to disagree. I think palas are the top healers in classic. Didnt play one, I was on the Horde as shaman healer, but I sure lvled a bloodelf pala in BC. No other class stood a chance against my hps in early BC.
And I can remember specifically that I leveled a paladin because they were the dominant healer in late vanilla and would also be the top healer in BC, cause the skilltree was known.
Raiding in general was easier for Alliance in classic wow. Of course that has also to do with racials, 5% int, mace and sword weapons specialisation, fear ward and so on. But the most important factor was the paladin. Auras, top hps and 5 raidbuffs. Some of them are better than any other class buffs, like kings or Salvation...~~
"didnt play one"
You look like Drake
The only reason to bring warlocks is to summon you to the raid entrance.
Why the dislikes? This is a good video smh.
casuals who are triggered by the concept of speed running & people who shit talk private server data
hunters are for kiting only.. never bring a hunter who cannot kite.
Your clueless, those setups are for ”wf” chasers..
you're*
Punkrat sorry 🐥
@@n0tz034 clueless btw, the "wf" chasers set the meta for the rest of the raiding community. The point of showing those speed clears was to exemplify the different class priority at different levels. It wasnt to tell casual guilds to run 20 warriors / rogues. You can do whatever u want, as I stated, but I showed you aggregates then speed running comps. Find a middleground. You're off base with your comment, just projecting negativity for no reason.
Sorry but ps aren’t accurate dps wise...
Watching this just makes me remember how broken and bad classic was.
Raid composition sucked in Classic...
World buffs are to op for raid content.
pserver shit.. 0 armor-all buffs... sure all meele are top.. plz stop make "classic-prep" with pserver videos...
mate the warrs / rogues are all on top with the actual vanilla screenshots too from nihilum....
@@Punkrat So why use private server data if you could use vanilla data from nihilum?
@@uni4rm I did use nihilum? did u watch the video? 50% of the video is analyzing nihilum shots
You should make a video about the biggest fraud in wow content creators Asmongold, he claims on stream he played Vanilla and ranked up claiming the reason he couldnt get a high rank is he ran out of time and BC was released, if this was the honest truth he would have a feat of strength ach of the highest rank he got, like i have 2 General ach/titles one from Vanilla one from Cata, which means Asmongold didn't kill anyone in pvp or didnt play vanilla, also Warcraftrealms.com tracks all player data since Vanilla go ahead search yourself, heres Asmons his char wasnt seen till 2010 www.warcraftrealms.com/charsheet/121533813 another thing is i asked him about the reasons why and he's ignored every tweet every question ive asked because he knows he has no answers will be exposed and loose a lot of money.
mate the guy thought inner fire could only be used out of combat.
@@mu551988 Along with thinking Mages had spellsteal, being suprised a Shadow priest could beat a warrior in duel, Not knowing the Pat Pvp film was done when there was a bug to get extra talent points, theres been loads of things like that in the classic beta, anyone that played vanilla can tell he didnt play.
@@mu551988 Its really obvious to me, you look at his first ever videos WOTLK, he has no online presence till WoTLK, and he claims that he loves making videos and thats what he wanted to do, why wait 5 years to post your first vid?
@@OldSkoolGeneral lmao ill stick with Kargoz over asmongold anyday
Yeah u wont learn anything from Asmon, ive played Warr since vanilla 2367 highest rating, he doesnt even use focus macros, and didnt know how to use stances. plays like a 1750 hero