After 10 Hours, I Had To Say Something
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- Diary of a Board Gamer: In this entry - JT talks about his experience setting up, learning, and playing Mr President.
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#DiaryOfABoardGamer #MrPresidentBoardGame #QuitingAGame
Have you ever quit on a game before you finished it?
I just quit on Warfighter Fantasy, which, interestingly enough, I pushed in front of playing Mr. President, which I was planning on playing first. I fully knew that Mr. President is this behemoth of a game and I'm going to have to take my time with it. I had traded another game for someone else's copy of Warfighter Fantasy and opted to try that one first, thinking it would be easier to get to the table and play. Unfortunately, I could not figure out how to play Warfighter Fantasy effectively at all. So that one is getting shelved until more content becomes available for it.
"Red Storm: The Air War Over Central Germany, 1987" is a great game, but too long to play for me that I don't own a dadicated room and table to leave it there multiple days/sessions unfortunately
Quite a few actually. 7th Continent, Uboot and Sine Tempore.
There have been three or four games I quit before I finished. And for numerous reasons. Clunky rules, confusing components. I just quit one last night and I will never pick it up again. So, yeah, it happens.
Fields of Fire; soooooo much to like; soooo difficult to understand. Not learn... understand.
3rd ed rules and starter guide out soon.
Last chance saloon
Yep, there's a reason i didnt ask for a review copy of this. My gut instinct was "this should have been a PC game, not a board game". I think there's a handful of folks for whom this will be the ultimate grail game, and for everyone else, its a job wearing a hastily drawn board game box as a mask.
Fortunately, I borrowed this one from a friend. Your gut instinct is spot on! I think this is much better served with letting the CPU run all the tables and reaction scenarios than you having to do all the work. It would've reduced my setup time, the effort to figure out what happens next in each table, and spend more time making meaningful decisions than having my head in 9 different manuals. This is more of a simulation/war game than it is a thematic board game.
Yep. I pre-ordered this I think 4 years ago and waited knowing it might not be for me after all that time. Finally got it; finally had an afternoon with everybody out of the house. Spent probably around 4-5 hours just setting it up, and trying to make my way through the (admittedly helpful) turn structure book of even one full turn. I reached the part where you are doing "Russia's turn" which has it's own booklet and multiple pages of tables and things--trying to interpret the significance, trying to find the appropriate tracks, trying to find the right chits, trying to make sure I'm considering the correct modifiers----just ultimately at that point I was like... man... haven't really made a decision in like at least 30 minutes, and unsure if there will ever be a point where I can fly through all these procedures and feel like I'm "playing" the game--or even feel like the way the way the machinery of how the game presents is "narrative" will be interesting to me. So...
I quietly packed the game up and sold it on eBay. I think it's probably great for a certain type of person. That type of person is in a dramatic minority of an already dramatically microscopic sub-sub-sub community of gamers though. (But I'm glad a game like this exists for such a infinitesimally small audience.)
Mr. President in 300 minutes 😂
If you're only accustomed to and happy with games that last 90-120 minutes, you shouldn't buy this game. It was designed by the head of a game company known for publishing wargames, and it didn't attempt to mislead anyone about it not being a quickie Euro-style game. Wargamers often play games for much more than 10 hours - we don't mind. We're used to it, because it gives us such an immersive experience.
I understand your point, but how can you have that much time set aside to play a game? Doesn’t work, kids, etc. interfere?
Sorry you’re having such a tough time. I really enjoyed playing it, more than I expected. I found the rules numerous but not very complex. I had a few minor questions quickly resolved, never really got stuck. It did take me long to play but the immersion was fantastic. The experience was really worth it for me.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, due to limited space and time, I play the Vassal module so I don't have to set up/tear down all the time and can play a few segments per session. I also scanned all the charts and put them in different tabs in a spreadsheet so they are easy to find and look through and also reduces wear/tear. I understand the points being made as it is obviously not for everyone, but I am enjoying it.
I own and played this game. Ruleswise I think it's quite simple and straightforward title. It tells You a great story, making You the main character in it. Of course, You need large table and operating it consumes a lot of time, but all this pays off at the end.
Reading these comments makes me happy that in some point in my life I choose to play wargames. I think it allows me to come to such titles with more open head and not be scared of things like 10+ hours gameplay, big rulebook etc. Long gameplay time is a good thing because it gives You a chance to sink deep into the world the game creates.
Don't be discouraged, because this kind of games can give You a lot to enjoy and to think of :)
TTS or Vassal is the way to go with this one.
I watched two playthroughs on UA-cam and made sure I understood the rules accordingly before I started playing. I managed to complete turn 1 in about 6 hours and it felt like it progressed quickly. Still not sure I want to play again mind. It is just too long.
Just imagine being 80 years old and trying to play the game.
Or well stoned at 64?
I love this game. It is a simulation. I call it POTUS Simulator. It's not for everyone, but, if you have dedicated table space and you don't mind leaving it set up for days, weeks or months (depending on how much you want to play), it is well worth the financial, time and space investment. I leave it set up in my office and play 30 minutes here, 40 minutes there. I'm not typically a solitaire gamer, but I love leaving this set up and just playing little bits at a time It tells such a great story and it's fun to try and keep all the plates spinning.
Yes. This is not a game you tackle in one setting, especially if you are learning. But you have to have a dedicated table space for it. Yes, this is a simulation.
Play it on Vassal, Joel Toppen did a great job.
With as many people recommend trying this on Vassal, I'm going to have to do it at some point.
Nice to see an honest respectful review of the game. Mr. President will only ever appeal to a very small group of hard core solo strategy board gamers. Once a person plays this game and sets it back down almost one one will pick it back up again , because the relearning curve is just going to be way too brutal. This makes relearning Magaeknight look like a cake walk. I have a strong feeling there will be many used copies of this game for sale in a few years.
I am eager to play this game, even if it takes 10+ hours. I have put that much time into solitaire games before, like Fire on the Lake, and enjoyed them immensely. But I honestly don't know where I would set up this thing in my house.
I found that focusing primarily on the narrative the game tells made it work for me.
Except the last I looked it is a boardgame with chits not a book with words ...
I have problems with the immense size too. Would love to continue on Vassal, but I don’t think I would like the books combined with screens. Might scan the rulebooks for use on the second monitor
Being the US President is legit one of the hardest jobs in the world. I'd consider it a mark of quality that it isn't easy to play on the first go around. Like fine wine you have to let the game age while you think about it, learn the rules, and let things process. Keep at it and you shalt be rewarded. I went through the same thing with MBT (2016) and it's expansions from GMT. Had to individually learn the elements from it's 100+ pages of combat rules and even now two years later there are rules I still don't understand.
Commitment is the key to any long term relationship.
Do you play MBT solo? If so how is the experience
@@zepfan72 You can't really use hidden units, or if you do there's an amount of role playing. Otherwise it runs very well, though there are some rules I don't use because they are annoying to keep track of (Command Limits and Morale come to mind). The game is fast to setup and fast to put away BUT the middle part of playing the game is pretty heavy and can get bogged down and messy as the board fills with Smoke, Brew Up flames, Damage markers, Artillery bombardments and Suppressed units. Starting Infantry numbers are purposefully kept small and Tank numbers kept high in the Army comps because tank vs tank fights tend to be decisive and tense while infantry fights can drag out with lots of "smaller stakes" rolls with a small % chance of an effective roll.
Nice to hear.. The first play, I got through one year in 5.5 hours after an hour set up. Went to WBC and with a GM (who played it full), I agree that it should be a two player game where one is the Prez and VP to speed it up.
As for a solo version it’s like a legacy game where the second time playing it, I set it up in about 40 mins and played one turn per session for four nights to get through the first term of your presidency
When I saw the other reviews and how big the game was I knew it was not for me. This need to be a PC game, or a 4-6 player game with the players each taking one aspect of play. If Twilight Struggle is just far too easy for you, this is your game.
I love me some Twilight Struggle. =)
I had a similar experience. I've been into hobby board games for a long time, and I enjoy longer games like Twilight Imperium, Through the Ages, Hegemony, etc. But Mr. President is at a whole different level of complexity and length than what I'm used to. I very much appreciate that it's a masterful simulation, and I may give it another go in the future, but I can truly say that it's the first game where I had to send up the white flag of surrender. 😀
Vassal or TTS is the way to go - whichever you prefer - give it a few quick one year run throughs to see what works and what doesnt then give it a proper go - its worth it - much easier on a pc module - dip in a segment at a time as time allows - transforms the game
Great video, I learned a lot. Very entertaining inserts throughout.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I've preordered the 2nd edition but probably need to look at some more gameplay videos before deciding if I really want it.
I think the thing that helped me get through this game the most was realizing that it is very intimidating and extremely daunting. There is a lot to unpack with this game. When Gene and company said that the game was going to play in 6 to 10 hours, that was a serious underestimation of how long this is going to take your average player.
That being said, the ability to distill the game down to one activation segment at a time really helped my game play. I have a place where I was able to leave this game up and running so I wouldn't have to break it down and set it back again every single time I wanted to play.
And I can tell quickly that I was not going to get this team learned and played in 6 hours. There's no way. No stinking way. But I love the way that this game hold your butt to the fire. It makes you work to try to get through. I think the biggest thing that helped me in the long run was that I learned early that I did not need to read or know the rule book. The turn sequence book pretty much sent me to the chart in the book that I needed and then I knew I came right back to it. And knowing that little bit made one activation sequence at a time much more digestible.
I am glad you put this video out there. I know there are a lot of people who are, if not disappointed, then discouraged by the immensity of this game. It's not going to play in a day on the table. It's going to take a lot of time. And that is up to each of us as to whether or not we want to invest that in this game. As for me, it is worth it. I do love this game immensely. Thanks again.
The first year in the first game is the hardest. I can now easily play a year in 2 hours more often than not, but boy, that first year took me ages to get through. My advice would be to finish year 1, then go back to step 1 and redo it from start. The second time I went through it everything felt so much more natural to me.
I loved the game. I felt it flowed well and had a good narrative.
It needs an app on the tablet. Looking up stuff in the books is absolutely tedious. Selling this one. PS: The official tabletop simulator mod does not have the books in it, neither are there any official digital pdfs of it. They did that on purpose to ensure you have a physical copy. Completer PITA if you ask me since flipping through these books is the worst part. It would be amazing to have a website where you can simply navigate to the charts...that does not exist either. From a usability perspective Mr President is a nightmare
I am getting the game soon I hope, 2nd edition. I have a table permanent for games in our living room, 30"x60" electric elevator desk. Never quit a game early...yet.
Since I am a paradox game nerd (yes I stare on colored map for 12h straight), history buff, lawyer with focus on international law, this game is like a blessing from heaven. :D It is like EU4 and HOI4 mixed together and the only playable nation is the US. :D
Oh man, seems like the perfect fit! =)
I think playing with someone else is definitely helpful. It does distribute the workload and it’s just way more fun. Also, there is an excellent player aid you can get on bgg that provides a fantastic summary of each action and what the effect of the action is. That’s all I use for my decisions. Once I’ve decided on a particular action, THEN I use the included booklets to determine results. It’s a LOT faster. But no question that it’s a monster game.
But I think it’s easier than other monster war games where there are a thousand exceptions or conditions that affect each action. The actions in this game are a lot more straightforward, but there are those modifiers, LOL!
I would also recommend to anyone thinking about getting this game that you punch ALL counters and sort them first. Trying to hunt for the counter you need on the sheets while you play will really slow you down.
Another recommendation: after setup, make sure you clearly understand what it takes to win. Don’t worry so much about how you can lose…yet. Do the recommended starting actions as detailed in one of the rulebooks, or use that player aid, as those actions are in BOLD, and just do them. Don’t worry about what their long term impact is. Just do them. And do whatever else might suit your fancy, but try to choose actions that seem reasonable, like gaining intel on Terrorost groups. That can’t be a bad thing, right? Anyway, do that for an hour and then stop. That will get you used to sorting the rulebooks properly, help you understand how to mitigate dice rolls and give you a feel for how the game flows. At least a little.
Then take a break from playing. Make sure you understand clearly how you can lose. Then go to p24 of the Turn Sequence flip book and read the section on “End of Turn Clean-up…” Take 15-20 minutes and see how certain game states at the end of each “Turn/Year” will influence your scoring. You will see that things like “War Effects,” “Trade agreements,” and “Rogue States” are important. Now go back to the game and play for a couple of hours and see if you feel like you have more player agency. Or at least that each action resolves quicker and that you make faster decisions on which action to take.
Once you clear the “I have no idea how to gain player agency in this game” hurdle, it’s much more fun. I think you should get 70% there toward the end of the first year.
It has rulebook issues (errata’s and typos) but we love playing it. (Played sandbox once and the first scenario (post 9/11) once). I do think playing with two helps us, since there is just so much going on dividing tasks lessens the load and let’s us focus on the unfolding “story”. It does take long and I wish it could easily be packed away to take a break halfway. As it is now we just leave it on the table for a week.
I agree! It is a simulation. I felt like I was just operating the game and not playing.
Thanks for the review. It was on my radar, but now it's a big no.
As a comparison, I love Hegemony, which can be 4+ hours, and involves many interconnected parts, and a huge board... but excellent rule book
I got to start playing Hegemony with friends to learn it. I really want to get back to that one and throw down on it.
Are you 100% sure page 58 isn't just tucked under the bottom of the box legacy style? 😂
I mean, there were moments where I wanted to tear some things up legacy style....
I just began and sure it s a lot of work and try and make mistakes etc.. Buut if after ten hours you are still during the first year, I think it's not a problem of the game mister
It is long but I knew that going in. I love it. Very immersive, definitely not a game for everyone but if you love monster games and ya got the room to leave it set up this is fantastic. Sorry you didnt like it I am sure many people wont. I hate Risk its one of the most popular games in the us market but it requires virtually zero thought and is almost 100 percent luck. Most solitaire games barely allow you to make any decisions. There are decisions all the time in this and they have repercussions.
10 hours?! This game is supposed to take 4-8 years to complete my friend. ;)
I know! I still haven't finished it! 😭 ;)
I don't know... Tons of reviews. I'm not sure how the time length is a surprise. There is ONE rulebook. Lots of table/chart books. The game is a narrative - not a simulation. Play it on VASSAL - TTS is terrible. But you'll need the books from game - so if you sell it, you can't play it on either. Meh, yeah the game isn't going to be for you if you're not willing to spend the time. Personally, I bought it to play on the table once, and on VASSAL at my leisure from then on. VASSAL, VASSAL, VASSAL.....
Good feedback. Yeah, I do say rulebooks and I try to correct it but I keep calling it rules - so good call out there!
I can see where the narrative can work if I was able to flow with the game more. It's just that I spent more time with my head in the rulebook and multiple reference books / tables trying to figure out what I was expected to do rather than looking at the board and making decisions.
I knew what I was getting into with the time length - I knew about the 6-10 hours referenced on BGG and I figured it would take longer than that my first time. However, my biggest problem wasn't the time investment rather it was issues with the rules and the structure of the reference tables. I've played games with a lot of time to invest but I would get a flow going after a certain period of time and slowly pick up on the bigger picture as I went along. It was just that I was spending too much time trying to figure out the text and digging for sections that didn't exist on the pages it referenced, struggling with a lack of clarity / lack of named pictures of components and locations, inconsistent formatting of the tables, etc. Then there are references to names of locations that required you to know Geopolitical / Military vocabulary that don't have definitions anywhere in any of the books nor are named that way on the map. I think if the references and rules were tighter I probably would've had a much better experience and would've stuck through the long hours of gameplay.
With that said, it sounds like we agree on one point - that this seems like a much better experience in digital form. When I do, I'll take your suggestion and try it on VASSAL. If you get a chance to play it on VASSAL - I'd love to hear your experience and the difference from the physical experience!
So…I understand this game is definitely not for everyone. And saying that, I will say this: this game is definitely for me.
My first game was a learning game, and I lost towards the end of the second year (turn). My second game I have just started, and I am enjoying it even more…
I really did not have issues with the manual or the the chart books. And I have spent most of my time playing the game and not buried in the books.
For me, what seemed to help me “get it” was watching most of the gameplay/how-to-play videos before I even had the game in my possession. That really seemed to “make it make sense”, and with that approach I used the manual as a reference as I already had a decent sense of direction.
And then on top of that, the best part is the Turn Sequence Book. That is amazing, and in my opinion makes this game one of the most accessible games I have ever played.
The time it takes has not bothered me. But, I enjoy long, epic games. This being a solo game is perfect for me.
Again, I disagree with you. But also all at the same time, this one is not for everyone.
Yeah, that Turn Sequence Book is great! The actual "how to play" was not a terrible experience and that book on first turns was helpful. If they could've done something like pictures and reference layouts of the board they were asking you to use that would've helped during setup. I couldn't get passed the reference issues at the time and it felt like I was at work trying to deal with nested processes that went no where, formatting issues, inconsistent vocabulary, or required knowledge not found in the tables. Like I said in the video, I'm willing to try this again with a friend or online and I like what I see. I just needed to quit and take a fresh run at it another time.
Thank you for the reply. It's encouraging to see others enjoying it and finding a flow!
Brutal dude.
Great video JT. I think you deserve a medal for getting 10 hours in before packing it up. I don't think my attention would have lasted that long.
Thanks for the kind words. I finally decided to impeach myself after 10 hours and then figured out how to organize the chits for my friend to give him a fighting chance when I gave him his game back.
Perhaos the game should be called "CAMPAIGN FOR NORTH AMERICA"..... ;)
yeah I really wish these types of games were published in PC format. Its incredibly frustrating, there are games that I'd love to play but for the fact that it is a SLOG to go through all of the logistics surrounding it.
Plus, with AI being the way it is, there is no reason that games like this couldn't have the ultimate 'rules lawyer', where if you ahve questions about the rules, etc you can turn to a chat bot for advice.
These types of games are afaict incredibly rare. I'd love the experience of a board game but the convenience of a computer. Boardgamearena doesn't cover it, Tabletopia doesn't either, and things like Vassal and Table Top simulator can do the comonents but they can't help with the logistics.
I want to be able to delegate to an AI based system the low level moves, and go from there. Again, very rare and I wish more game designers would do something like this.
Did you contribute material to the 2nd Edition?
maybe leave the game set up and play a little at a time, even if takes 6 months?
It's too bad that he's having a hard time with the game. As many have pointed out, it's not for everyone. But then, so few games worth remembering are. So, for a bit of perspective for those who don't know:
GMT has sold (I believe) close to 5,000 copies of this game. Of those customers, 1,692 members of Boardgame Geek (BGG) have reported owning it. Of them (as of 13 Aug 23), 401 BGG members have rated the game (from 1-10). Of those 401 ratings, 153 members rated the game a "10" (which is a LOT for any niche game). One hundred and forty members rated it a "9", while only 65 rated it an "8" (which is usually where the MOST ratings for any really good game typically fall). Then from there, the ratings plummet quickly, with only 16 members rating it a "1", and six rating it a "2" or a "3".
And yes, I have a point with all this, at the end.
While 401 ratings is of course not completely representative of the @5,000 copies sold, it is nonetheless statistically valid. Also, for almost ALL really good games which are rated on BGG, the typical rating is around 8.1 to 8.3. The average rating for 'Mr. President' is 8.7, which is far above almost any other game in the niche category.
Yes! The user ratings system on BGG can be full of broken data as members can get very emotional over our boardgames, giving them either "rage" or "in love" ratings without really considering the gameplay itself. And for sure, there's some of that phenomenon at work here. But still, it's RARE for a game to receive so many "in love" ratings without a compensatory reaction at the bottom of the ratings scale. I.e., for every two or three "in love" tens, there would be an opposite reaction of "rage" ones or twos. But we're not seeing that here.
THE POINT of all this is to simply put things into perspective... that just because this person had a hard time getting into the game - enough so to go public with his personal issues - doesn't necessarily mean that the typical person will have the same difficulties or issues. There may be some things he was doing wrong. I don't know, and neither do any of the viewers. Maybe he was doing everything correctly, but still found the game to not be for him. That's fine, of course. But his opinion shouldn't be taken as a "lesson" from which to base your OWN decision about trying the game for yourself and forming your own opinion, which I see many commentors here already doing based only on this video.
Again, just consider that 73% of the BGG members who have rated this game have thought highly enough of it to give it a "9" or a "10" (whereas again, the typical good game is rated "7" or "8", tops). This data suggests that this reviewer's struggles MAY BE atypical.
I love the statistical analysis! One of the other stats that might be interesting to explore is that there are over 500 rules posts on a game that has a lot of text. It could be interesting to see a breakdown of what the ratio from pages to rules posts are and maybe compare that to other games out there with smaller rulesets and the corresponding rules posts. Thank you for that breakdown!
And yes, everyone should look at other reference points than just my anecdotal diary of my experience to make a decision on whether this game is for you.
Thanks again for your thoughtful reply!
First of all, he never said he was giving any opinion but his own.
Second, people who spend $100 on a highly complex, niche game will tend to want to feel that they have made a good investment. They are biased towards giving a positive review.
Glad I passed on this one , life to short . Play games for fun ,,, I have a job .
How many rule books? One per hour and a half? You are braver than I my friend.
Thanks, I workout
Wow, that does not sound like a good experience at all. I've only heard some people talking about it, but haven't paid much attention to it since I don't play solo games much and the ones I do are very light.
Sorry you had such a poor experience. I related to the frustrations with rulebooks, especially if they don't have accurate references. I can only imaging how bad it'd be when there are so many manuals to reference. They needed those to be perfect.
Hope you can find someone to trade it with.
#SavingTheReedsMoney 😉
The good news is that I borrowed the game from a friend who hadn't played it yet. We were originally supposed to tackle this together but we both got caught with work ramping up and he wasn't going to get to it - so he let me borrow it to figure it out.
The references were killing me. At one point, they reference an area to put military chits in. However, they give a literal geopolitical reference that doesn't coincide with the name on the board. I had to google it to find it was talking about a region between three areas. Add in typos, inconsistent naming conventions even in the same section, and it's maddening.
@@GClubChannel Glad it's not your copy, so you can just return it.
ugh. that is just horrible! Wonder if they're going to release revised books. Though if they do, probably only pdfs to download.
@@sarahreed-eurogamergirl There’s nothing wrong with the rules or references. I have followed a ton of Content on this game, and this is the first person I have heard complain. On the other hand, I have seen many, many people give the rules and manuals high praise.
Maybe stop doing crimes?
But what else would you and I do for fun?
@@GClubChannel ...less time consuming crimes?
@@willreed4692 I mean: ua-cam.com/video/7G_5ie0a01M/v-deo.html
You bring up a great point. I think a game can be impressive and well-designed, but at what point does it go from fun to work? I love Euros but some Euros are artificially restrictive which is not the same as being “tight.”
Exactly. When you spend more time with your head in a manual and following charts than you do looking at the board - it's loses its immersion.
I was undecided on this game but it just looks too daunting, too long, table space hog. I'll stick to 1960 Making of the President, Watergate etc. for my political board games fix
I love me some Watergate but haven't been able to table 1960 yet. If you get a chance, try 13 Days.
@GClubChannel Thanks for the tip. I've heard about 13 Days but seems impossible to get a hold of a copy these days!
@@boardnwargames It's pretty good. Feels like Twilight Struggle light.
I've played (well, I got destroyed) in multiple tourneys on this site: chantry-games.com/
The game is well implemented online. This would give you a feel for it.
@@GClubChannel Will give it a try, thank you. Twilight Struggle is one of my favorite games
P r o m o s m 🙌
Yup, fuck that game. Ain't nobody got time for that.
I hate GMT games because of their rulebooks and their games are more work than fun. I think so many people can agree with this. GMT..when are you actuly going to make FUN games?
Battle Line is fun.
You “hate” GMT games because they don’t make games you like… LMAO
@@jameshiers9679 No. I love a lot of their themes, but it's too much work to learn a ruleBOOK (emphasis on BOOK).
I preordered MP at a development stage that looked not very complicated. After "years" I've got my copy some weeks ago and it's now standing on the shelf and I know, I'll never play it. I'm waiting for good times (when out of print) and then sell it. This game is real work as far as I saw in that many YT videos. And I already wrote in a comment: This game shouldn't be a boardgame, it should be a PC game where the AI controls the setup and all the rules issues. That would save time.