Great to see you back. Helpful ideas as always. The only time this happened in one of my games it lead to Big Gun escalation, as the bad guys felt obliged to bring in their Big Guns as well - so the PCs ended up having to deal with the original problem themselves.
One of the benefits of the Forgotten Realms as a game setting (at least historically) is that the huge number of different villains and villainous organisations makes it easy to reason why Elminster (or the numerous other high-level good guys) isn't available to get involved. Yours isn't the only world-ending threat going down on a given day!
Glad to hear they're working! It can be tricky to find the right balance between intro and catchy and informative and please-please-please-keep-watching. ;)
Good video! Great advice. A lot of these things I have already been using. One of my favourites is "the archmage tries to complete a ritual while the party defends them" which gives the player much importance. Setting up a larger villain the big gun is occupied with, is a worthwhile investment for when the players level up, and can help out the big gun with stopping this villain once and for all. My players reached 19th level, and at this point they are the big guns!
Any place where the PCs are responsible for saving or protecting a Big Gun seems to have great results at the table. One key thing is that it elevates the PCs to being the Big Gun's peers. Elminster as a jerk who swoops in and steals your glory? Sucks. Elminster who's your partner in mischief? That's awesome.
Love the video. Recently had a moment where the DM brought in an überwizard at the end of a combat to take the kill shot on a Beholder we had been doing all the hard work on. Even though we would have literally killed that Beholder with one more hit, it took the agency away from the players and robbed us of that moment where we got to celebrate the win together. (Before rushing off to rez the party member who was instakilled by a death ray). The trick in this Big Guns conversation is how to keep player as the active agents of the game and it not turn into a GM show while the players watch from the sidelines.
You provide some of the best resources on DMing around. So incredibly applicable and practical, addressing common problems that aren’t addressed anywhere else. Love it.
My favorite trick is to make it so that bringing in the big guns will have negative consequences for the players -- they've done some shady or illegal things up to this point and bringing in the big guns would result in them being arrested or killed, or there's a reward at the end that the PCs want that getting the big guns involved would prevent them from getting. Dragon Heist is particularly good for this, as Waterdeep's laws mean that the PC have probably broken a few things, and the possibility of not getting that reward at the end means there's a good reason to keep everything on the down-low. That way, bringing in the big guns isn't "the problem is solved easily" but "the previous problem is replaced by a newer, different problem that they CAN'T call in the big guns for." If there is a different set of big guns that they can use to solve the new problem, then the whole thing turns into the first solution of "it works" -- the quest was about learning to safely play the different guns off each other so the PCs can get away scot-free at the end.
It's great to be back! Hopefully we'll be seeing regular releases now. I filmed a big slate of new videos last week and my new editor is doing fantastic work on them. Fingers crossed that we can make this work at a pace that will keep the videos flowing.
@@TheAlexandrian Awesome news. I love your narration style and the DM voice you use to show how that would work in-game. I would enjoy some fantasy or sci-fi reading recommendations from you if you were so inclined!
I think the big thing you forgot to mention is that points 2 and 6 work very well together. For example, my games often have some sort of war going in the background simply so I can say "well, kingdom's army is busy right now". With a big player like this out of the way it's actually rather easy to say "guys, you ARE the Biggest guns this issue is getting". Even with DnD at al low as level 5 I'd say this is doable!
We had a great development involving a situation like this at a Werewolf the Apocalypse table I played with. We always sent our pack's findings to the camp leader and he was always busy to help us deal with the bad guys at hand. Eventually, we sold him out to the sect and he was banished from our group. Then, my character got his job, his office, his notes, the whole thing. Trouble is, we found out he dealt with a LOT of stuff behind the scenes without our knowledge or help. His journal was PACKED with troublesome shit, and he still took the blame for the whole situation and never said a thing. We felt really bad in the most amazing way possible. The smile in the narrator's face when he pulled the rug out of our feet was unforgettable.
I was pretty surprised you didn't include, "The Big Guns Refuse" since it's such a classic storytelling trope. Think of every movie where the teenage protagonists stumble on a major threat (The Goonies, Fright Night, Killers Klowns from Outer Space, etc.) and they go to the cops with their story, but aren't taken seriously at all. The protagonist was completely justified in seeking out the big guns but there's also a perfectly sensible in-world justification for why this effort won't be rewarded: the cops are equally justified in not taking such outlandish claims seriously, which I think most mature players would begrudgingly understand. So what compels the protagonists into action? Because they're the only ones who realize how disastrous things will be if nobody does anything to stop the threat, and that they'll take matters into their own hands if no one else will even as it frightens them to do so. The key thing, I think, is to still validate the players... but to wait until AFTER they've stopped the threat. Give them a chance to prove themselves to the Big Guns that they weren't making anything up and give them the apology and reward they deserve. It'll even serve to discredit the Big Guns in the future which strokes the players' egos.
A favorite of mine, when I can make it work, is ‘The big guns need time’ You called the police? Good idea. Now survive alone in a building with the serial killer until they get there. Called in to the fleet for backup? ETA is 10 minutes, marine, hold your position. Lit the beacon? Just as you should- now save who you can while the dragon who watches over the city flies over. I think most of this video is focused on the type ‘calling in the big guns’ before the situation goes pear shaped, which I think is the most common (especially in fantasy!)- but it’s good to have ways you can continue to challenge the PCs if they get in over their heads while still allowing the ‘big guns’ to be a glimmer of hope. Re: Getting the big guns to help *is* the challenge/accomplishment; *Love* this option when it works- cut through the red tape, deliver that message, repair that radio tower to get a message through, make your plea, *blackmail* the big guns- anything to get the help you need. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking…
I had a situation in my current campaign where my players began discussing bringing what they'd learned to the town guard. They were investigating caverns under the town inhabited by Kobolds and had found that the Kobolds had a Green Dragon Wyrmling tucked away. As soon as they began discussing this I thought quickly. The town they were in was only a few days' travel from the City of Absolom, home of the Pathfinder Society. This could have easily turned into a "Call in the big guns" moment for the town guard so I added something, not in the module; A time crunch. The Kobolds were planning a surprise attack on the town with the dragon in three days' time, and the town guard was unwilling to waste an investigation on this unfounded claim of a dragon without following protocol which would take at least three days to even consider hiring someone.
thanks alexandrian, love the content. i offer up another option for fun. the players call in the big guns and they handle the problem for them. then the betrayal. "the only thing left standing in my way.... is you." having just fought the big-bad, they are weakened. the players are shocked at this betrayal, but none-the-less have a chance at victory. remove spell slots as though they've been expended and lower their hp. maybe they got cursed or are under some weakening effect from the fight they just won, which lowers their stats to be appropriate for the players' level. is the big bad controlling them somehow? were they actually evil the whole time? the answers to those questions are up to you. the players don't have time to think about it, there's initiative... or call it for the night and let them mull it over until the next session. if the big guns were bad the whole time, have them send the players to do something that doesn't make sense, but the players do it anyways because the big guns "know what they're doing." this will keep the players relatively safe from strong enemies so they are mostly fresh for the final fight. for instance gathering the summoning stones to the underworld rather than destroying them. leave notes in their home where they mock the players and laugh about the silly tasks they sent them on to further their evil plans. it will help the players be less conflicted about finishing off their former ally, and reaffirm that they made the right choice.
My friend was so excited to run his L.A. by Night Vampire the Masquerade game. He and I each GM once a week for our group. Now I'm a pretty big personality so I end up 'the leader' more often than not. I based my vampire off Tom Cruise in Rock of Ages, this made us being the Big Guns in L.A. ludicrous. I am Baron of San Diego now, so it worked out.
So glad to have you back! I missed your DM wisdom. I think it's most satisfying when the PCs get to fight along side the Big Guns. Especially if they show up at a dramatic moment to help finish off the dragon. Looking forward to the next video.
Last time my players did that I had the Big Gun teleport out as they got the message (because they were working on a bigger problem the players had brought to them), and then they showed up right at the end of the battle to help save the innocents after the players had won the day.
Option 6 is my go to. The players are the biggest guns around. In my version of Forgotten Realms Elminster and Drizzt are legendary heroes of the past, long dead, and by the time the PCs are dealing with stuff serious enough to threaten Waterdeep they are already more powerful than the Blackstaff and she’s the one asking them for help. And in my own settings the general power level of the world is just much lower. The other options are cool too though.
I think you're right; the key is finding out why the players have gone to the big guns. That will help you know which option would be most fun for them and which might perturb them.
Great ideas, I always try to not get NPCs more powerful than the players but with patrons like those in the Forgotten Realms this are extremely great tools
There's also another option that can be used, but should only be used probably once per campaign, if at all: calling the Big Guns makes things worse. Specifically, calling in the Big Guns actually provides the antagonists the opportunity to gain massive leverage that they couldn't have had they not been called in the first place. As an example, say for some unknown reason, Batman calls in Superman to help him take down Poison Ivy. Poison Ivy, however, ensnared Superman and kisses him while wearing some toxic lip balm that makes him enthralled by her. Now Batman has to deal with an enthralled Superman who will do anything for his "queen."
I'm currently running your DH Remix and having a blast, moving all the pieces around between sessions is a great way to occupy my mind! I did go with option 7: the players PLAY the big guns. I gave them control of Vajra when they entered Manshoon's Sanctum. DnD levels go till 20 - but usually you're running around as lvl 5 or so and the moment you reach lvl 10 the campaign is almost finished and you can maybe use your fancy lvl 5 spell once or twice. Letting them play a lvl 18 wizard was a nice change of pace!
@@TheAlexandrian I asked for feedback later and well, turns out the group didn't like it! They felt their own characters didn't matter, even while they were controlling Vajra themselves. So the experiment wasn't as good for the players as I had imagined it. The alternative that I could've used was have Manshoon and Vajra duke it out in a separate area, have Vajra lose and let the players fight a weakened and depleted Manshoon. So when I encounter a scenario like this again, that's how I might handle it.
Many thanks for the informed knowledge that is actually practical with a system, doing gods work putting these ideas out in the community, always bringing in the big guns.
Nice to see you back! Can't be too many comments saying that ) Also I am patiently waiting on a topic that you've mentioned once: why did you came to like splitting party and how do you manage such table.
All my kings and nobles are corrupt. Same with local law enforcement. And I make it clear that for every good wizard sorcerer or warlock there are 100 evil ones. I do priests different from dnd. More like shamans. And you never know what alignment they really are. But that’s how I handle it. By the way, this is a damn good video. One of the best I have ever seen.
Super good advice as always. I also really enjoyed this format with specific examples that really gave the feel of how it works. I'd like to add another possibility that I'm quite fond of. The Big Guns are secretly also the Bad Guys: "Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Guards, kill them!"
My only nit is that your list int he top right was hard to see or figure out it was a list. Is it possible you can add a background next time? Would help me see it easier.
This was a great video and very insightful! 10 years of DMing and I’ve struggled to justify having powerful NPCs in my game. If I may ask, do you plan to do a video on Descent into Avernus? I know you’ve done a huge blog series on it and I’m planning to run the game soon in my homebrew world. It would be super cool to see a video on it though!
Watching your videos is the GM equivalent of going to the Big Gun for advice.
Exactly!
Yes!
I love the idea of having a less experienced adventuring group visiting the PCs for help. I'm definitely going to use that in my game at some point.
Great to see you back. Helpful ideas as always. The only time this happened in one of my games it lead to Big Gun escalation, as the bad guys felt obliged to bring in their Big Guns as well - so the PCs ended up having to deal with the original problem themselves.
That's a great tip!
One of the benefits of the Forgotten Realms as a game setting (at least historically) is that the huge number of different villains and villainous organisations makes it easy to reason why Elminster (or the numerous other high-level good guys) isn't available to get involved. Yours isn't the only world-ending threat going down on a given day!
I just love the intro's for these videos. Really fun, and get the point of the video across immediately.
Glad to hear they're working! It can be tricky to find the right balance between intro and catchy and informative and please-please-please-keep-watching. ;)
Good video! Great advice. A lot of these things I have already been using. One of my favourites is "the archmage tries to complete a ritual while the party defends them" which gives the player much importance. Setting up a larger villain the big gun is occupied with, is a worthwhile investment for when the players level up, and can help out the big gun with stopping this villain once and for all.
My players reached 19th level, and at this point they are the big guns!
Any place where the PCs are responsible for saving or protecting a Big Gun seems to have great results at the table.
One key thing is that it elevates the PCs to being the Big Gun's peers. Elminster as a jerk who swoops in and steals your glory? Sucks. Elminster who's your partner in mischief? That's awesome.
Love the video. Recently had a moment where the DM brought in an überwizard at the end of a combat to take the kill shot on a Beholder we had been doing all the hard work on. Even though we would have literally killed that Beholder with one more hit, it took the agency away from the players and robbed us of that moment where we got to celebrate the win together. (Before rushing off to rez the party member who was instakilled by a death ray). The trick in this Big Guns conversation is how to keep player as the active agents of the game and it not turn into a GM show while the players watch from the sidelines.
You provide some of the best resources on DMing around. So incredibly applicable and practical, addressing common problems that aren’t addressed anywhere else. Love it.
Thank you. That's very kind. I'm glad you find it useful!
Look at that new office!
My favorite trick is to make it so that bringing in the big guns will have negative consequences for the players -- they've done some shady or illegal things up to this point and bringing in the big guns would result in them being arrested or killed, or there's a reward at the end that the PCs want that getting the big guns involved would prevent them from getting. Dragon Heist is particularly good for this, as Waterdeep's laws mean that the PC have probably broken a few things, and the possibility of not getting that reward at the end means there's a good reason to keep everything on the down-low. That way, bringing in the big guns isn't "the problem is solved easily" but "the previous problem is replaced by a newer, different problem that they CAN'T call in the big guns for." If there is a different set of big guns that they can use to solve the new problem, then the whole thing turns into the first solution of "it works" -- the quest was about learning to safely play the different guns off each other so the PCs can get away scot-free at the end.
Glad to see you back, Mr. Alexander!
It's great to be back!
Hopefully we'll be seeing regular releases now. I filmed a big slate of new videos last week and my new editor is doing fantastic work on them. Fingers crossed that we can make this work at a pace that will keep the videos flowing.
@@TheAlexandrian Man, you just made my week!
@@TheAlexandrian Awesome news.
I love your narration style and the DM voice you use to show how that would work in-game. I would enjoy some fantasy or sci-fi reading recommendations from you if you were so inclined!
I think the big thing you forgot to mention is that points 2 and 6 work very well together. For example, my games often have some sort of war going in the background simply so I can say "well, kingdom's army is busy right now". With a big player like this out of the way it's actually rather easy to say "guys, you ARE the Biggest guns this issue is getting". Even with DnD at al low as level 5 I'd say this is doable!
We had a great development involving a situation like this at a Werewolf the Apocalypse table I played with.
We always sent our pack's findings to the camp leader and he was always busy to help us deal with the bad guys at hand. Eventually, we sold him out to the sect and he was banished from our group.
Then, my character got his job, his office, his notes, the whole thing.
Trouble is, we found out he dealt with a LOT of stuff behind the scenes without our knowledge or help. His journal was PACKED with troublesome shit, and he still took the blame for the whole situation and never said a thing.
We felt really bad in the most amazing way possible. The smile in the narrator's face when he pulled the rug out of our feet was unforgettable.
I was pretty surprised you didn't include, "The Big Guns Refuse" since it's such a classic storytelling trope. Think of every movie where the teenage protagonists stumble on a major threat (The Goonies, Fright Night, Killers Klowns from Outer Space, etc.) and they go to the cops with their story, but aren't taken seriously at all. The protagonist was completely justified in seeking out the big guns but there's also a perfectly sensible in-world justification for why this effort won't be rewarded: the cops are equally justified in not taking such outlandish claims seriously, which I think most mature players would begrudgingly understand. So what compels the protagonists into action? Because they're the only ones who realize how disastrous things will be if nobody does anything to stop the threat, and that they'll take matters into their own hands if no one else will even as it frightens them to do so.
The key thing, I think, is to still validate the players... but to wait until AFTER they've stopped the threat. Give them a chance to prove themselves to the Big Guns that they weren't making anything up and give them the apology and reward they deserve. It'll even serve to discredit the Big Guns in the future which strokes the players' egos.
We've missed you, Justin. Welcome back.
A favorite of mine, when I can make it work, is ‘The big guns need time’
You called the police? Good idea. Now survive alone in a building with the serial killer until they get there.
Called in to the fleet for backup? ETA is 10 minutes, marine, hold your position.
Lit the beacon? Just as you should- now save who you can while the dragon who watches over the city flies over.
I think most of this video is focused on the type ‘calling in the big guns’ before the situation goes pear shaped, which I think is the most common (especially in fantasy!)- but it’s good to have ways you can continue to challenge the PCs if they get in over their heads while still allowing the ‘big guns’ to be a glimmer of hope.
Re: Getting the big guns to help *is* the challenge/accomplishment;
*Love* this option when it works- cut through the red tape, deliver that message, repair that radio tower to get a message through, make your plea, *blackmail* the big guns- anything to get the help you need. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking…
I had a situation in my current campaign where my players began discussing bringing what they'd learned to the town guard. They were investigating caverns under the town inhabited by Kobolds and had found that the Kobolds had a Green Dragon Wyrmling tucked away. As soon as they began discussing this I thought quickly. The town they were in was only a few days' travel from the City of Absolom, home of the Pathfinder Society. This could have easily turned into a "Call in the big guns" moment for the town guard so I added something, not in the module; A time crunch. The Kobolds were planning a surprise attack on the town with the dragon in three days' time, and the town guard was unwilling to waste an investigation on this unfounded claim of a dragon without following protocol which would take at least three days to even consider hiring someone.
thanks alexandrian, love the content. i offer up another option for fun.
the players call in the big guns and they handle the problem for them. then the betrayal. "the only thing left standing in my way.... is you." having just fought the big-bad, they are weakened. the players are shocked at this betrayal, but none-the-less have a chance at victory. remove spell slots as though they've been expended and lower their hp. maybe they got cursed or are under some weakening effect from the fight they just won, which lowers their stats to be appropriate for the players' level. is the big bad controlling them somehow? were they actually evil the whole time? the answers to those questions are up to you. the players don't have time to think about it, there's initiative... or call it for the night and let them mull it over until the next session.
if the big guns were bad the whole time, have them send the players to do something that doesn't make sense, but the players do it anyways because the big guns "know what they're doing." this will keep the players relatively safe from strong enemies so they are mostly fresh for the final fight. for instance gathering the summoning stones to the underworld rather than destroying them. leave notes in their home where they mock the players and laugh about the silly tasks they sent them on to further their evil plans. it will help the players be less conflicted about finishing off their former ally, and reaffirm that they made the right choice.
My friend was so excited to run his L.A. by Night Vampire the Masquerade game. He and I each GM once a week for our group. Now I'm a pretty big personality so I end up 'the leader' more often than not. I based my vampire off Tom Cruise in Rock of Ages, this made us being the Big Guns in L.A. ludicrous. I am Baron of San Diego now, so it worked out.
So glad to have you back! I missed your DM wisdom. I think it's most satisfying when the PCs get to fight along side the Big Guns. Especially if they show up at a dramatic moment to help finish off the dragon. Looking forward to the next video.
Return of the King!
Last time my players did that I had the Big Gun teleport out as they got the message (because they were working on a bigger problem the players had brought to them), and then they showed up right at the end of the battle to help save the innocents after the players had won the day.
Option 6 is my go to. The players are the biggest guns around. In my version of Forgotten Realms Elminster and Drizzt are legendary heroes of the past, long dead, and by the time the PCs are dealing with stuff serious enough to threaten Waterdeep they are already more powerful than the Blackstaff and she’s the one asking them for help. And in my own settings the general power level of the world is just much lower. The other options are cool too though.
I think you're right; the key is finding out why the players have gone to the big guns. That will help you know which option would be most fun for them and which might perturb them.
It always comes back to the Prime Directive of GMing: Listen to your players.
Damn, you're smooth with your lines. For the life of me I don't understand why your videos don't have more views.
Great ideas, I always try to not get NPCs more powerful than the players but with patrons like those in the Forgotten Realms this are extremely great tools
There's also another option that can be used, but should only be used probably once per campaign, if at all: calling the Big Guns makes things worse.
Specifically, calling in the Big Guns actually provides the antagonists the opportunity to gain massive leverage that they couldn't have had they not been called in the first place.
As an example, say for some unknown reason, Batman calls in Superman to help him take down Poison Ivy. Poison Ivy, however, ensnared Superman and kisses him while wearing some toxic lip balm that makes him enthralled by her. Now Batman has to deal with an enthralled Superman who will do anything for his "queen."
I like that a lot!
I'm currently running your DH Remix and having a blast, moving all the pieces around between sessions is a great way to occupy my mind! I did go with option 7: the players PLAY the big guns. I gave them control of Vajra when they entered Manshoon's Sanctum. DnD levels go till 20 - but usually you're running around as lvl 5 or so and the moment you reach lvl 10 the campaign is almost finished and you can maybe use your fancy lvl 5 spell once or twice. Letting them play a lvl 18 wizard was a nice change of pace!
Excellent choice!
@@TheAlexandrian I asked for feedback later and well, turns out the group didn't like it! They felt their own characters didn't matter, even while they were controlling Vajra themselves. So the experiment wasn't as good for the players as I had imagined it. The alternative that I could've used was have Manshoon and Vajra duke it out in a separate area, have Vajra lose and let the players fight a weakened and depleted Manshoon. So when I encounter a scenario like this again, that's how I might handle it.
Tip 6 gave me chills
great advice.
Thanks!
Thanks for the English subtitles, it makes the video easier to watch by translating it into Spanish. (Google Translate)❤❤❤
Oh, I am a big bad subscribing hero allready! Great video, you're gold. You bring so much inspiration!
Greetings, hero!
Amazing video as always! The transition to the outro made me smile.
Great video as always
Thank you!
Man. Maybe I am late to these videos but they are just fantastic.
The important thing is that you're here now!
Many thanks for the informed knowledge that is actually practical with a system, doing gods work putting these ideas out in the community, always bringing in the big guns.
Sometimes you don't want to trigger an escalation. You call help. The enemy calls help. A skirmish becomes a battle becomes a war becomes a cataclysm.
Garibaldi: No boom?
Sinclair: No boom.
Ivanova: No boom TODAY. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. Sooner or later... BOOM!
THE RETURN!
Thank you for such great tips and thoughts. Greetings from Poland!
My 2 tricks for the Big Guns are
1) the phrase “we’re working on it” or “my hands are tied”
2) the big guns expect big rewards
Nice to see you back! Can't be too many comments saying that )
Also I am patiently waiting on a topic that you've mentioned once: why did you came to like splitting party and how do you manage such table.
Great work, love to see you back at it
Return of the Hat (Come on)
Return of the Hat (Oh my God)
Every one of your videos is a gem.
I've always wondered why Orlane needs the PC's when there are many NPC's who could get together and stomp the Naga.
All my kings and nobles are corrupt. Same with local law enforcement. And I make it clear that for every good wizard sorcerer or warlock there are 100 evil ones. I do priests different from dnd. More like shamans. And you never know what alignment they really are. But that’s how I handle it.
By the way, this is a damn good video. One of the best I have ever seen.
Are those yellow/black hazard striped books on the shelves in the background Heavy Gear RPG books? If so, respect. Much, much, much respect.
Super good advice as always. I also really enjoyed this format with specific examples that really gave the feel of how it works.
I'd like to add another possibility that I'm quite fond of. The Big Guns are secretly also the Bad Guys: "Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Guards, kill them!"
New video, hell yeah!
My only nit is that your list int he top right was hard to see or figure out it was a list. Is it possible you can add a background next time? Would help me see it easier.
My editor says we'll make that happen for the next one! Thanks for the note!
@@TheAlexandrian Thank you! The content in this video was awesome as always! Thank you for putting these out!
This was a great video and very insightful! 10 years of DMing and I’ve struggled to justify having powerful NPCs in my game. If I may ask, do you plan to do a video on Descent into Avernus? I know you’ve done a huge blog series on it and I’m planning to run the game soon in my homebrew world. It would be super cool to see a video on it though!
Check this Twitch stream VOD: www.twitch.tv/videos/1221738388
Dude. Where did you get that giant Technoir poster!?!?