Thanks for remembering to attribute this idea to my Dad, Dean A. Grennell, former managing editor of GunWolrd magazine. It should be noted that both Ace Hindman and Tom Ferguson made significant contributions to the development of these firearms and caliber.
Your Dad was one of my favorite gun writers. In the pre internet days he was a significant source of hand loading data. His articles were entertaining as well as informative. He ranks right up there with Skeeter and Elmer. I had the pleasure of meeting him at the NRA convention in New Orleans 1985ish.
@@chuckgrennell496 I just wrote an article for the November issue of Sixgunner about the .45 Super. I mentioned your dad , Ace Hindman and Tom Ferguson briefly. The Article is a two part article. If you would like to provide some more information about your dad for part 2 I would be more than happy to add it.
@@AlaskanBallistics Just curious, would you prefer a 12 ga slug or .308 in a semiautomatic platform (20 round capacity) for Grizzly defense? The shotgun could also be semiautomatic too.
Nice video! Buuuut, everyone(and by everyone, I mean me!) wants to see what the Underwood Extreme Defense 120 grain 45 super and the 200 grain Extreme Penetrator will do in gel and against 3A armor. Looking forward to that because no one else has done it!
almost certainly it will penetrate, a lukewarm 10mm xd and xp were able to penetrate 3a at lower velocities. I think the vid was on tfbtv. Btw underwood recently switched their .45 acp/super to the 135gr exd. Basically the same projectile but with blunter yet harder flutes due to being cold formed rather than machined
@@johnmills837 Real Super shooters hand load their own. Others are just "posers". .450 SMC (Suck My C**k) is the same. Without the royalties payed to the Super guy's trade mark,. F**k him.
Picked up an HK 45 because it can run 45super out of the box. And it runs 45super without a flaw. It's my woods gun for bear, including grizzly. I know it's kinda light for grizzly, but 44mag is too. Besides, I really, really wanted a 45acp in my collection.
No way is the 44 mag too light for bears, and almost anything else. I hunt with 280, 300, and even 340 gr. loads from Hornady, Cor Bon, Buffalo Bore, and Underwood. But I love hunting deer and hogs with my Marlin Camp 45 carbine with 45 acp plus loads.
I wouldn’t say .45 super is too light for bear….. it’s my bear gun. 10+1 @900 ft/lbs ain’t no joke. Even 9mm is fine bear protection. It’s been 100% effective so far…..
@@zackzittel7683 Huh, well with all due respect I'm not sure there's any Bear Hunt guides carrying 9mm. I believe Chuke's outdoor adventures says bear guns start at 10mm. I could be wrong, I only have drop bears to worry about and have only hunted rabbit and duck here, in Australia.
I know a lot of people aren't fond of the MK23, but I love that pistol. I've owned a few HK USPs and they are terrific products and I'm actually looking to add a MK23 to my collection.
My HK45T runs .45 Super just fine. I was looking at getting a 10mm then I discovered .45 Super. I even reload it now. Finding brass is nearly impossible right about now. Thanks for the video! Aloha 🤙🏽
I just got a 45T this weekend, what's your preferred projectile for hand loads? I'm thinking maybe a hot loaded deer hunting load? I figure this might be very effective out to say 50 yards or so. I was thinking maybe one of the Underwood loads or Buffalo Bore loads for hunting. I know some projectiles designed for 45 ACP loaded too hot will just over-expand and fall short of proper penetration. I just don't know if it would make more sense to go for a 165 or 180gr projectile, or more like a 230gr for this purpose.
Personally I love 230gr 45ACP +p for my carry ammo and only thing I carry is my handloads or Underwood. I've never tried 45 Super before but I'm going to look into it for sure... Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!
High chamber pressure in 45 Super means losing the strength of low pressure 45 ACP, namely that low pressure rounds are optimized for heavyweight bullets and hence larger calibers. 45 Super should work best with 185g and lighter bullets, whereas 45 ACP is optimized for up to 230g. 120g Xtreme Defender would be ideal in 45 Super.
One neat aspect of reloading .45 Super is that if you have a well supported chamber and a comp, you can load it to 460 Rowland spec but also what's neat is playing around with .452" JHP and hardcast bullets that are essentially .45 Colt revolver bullets. These include the 250gr XTP and 250gr Gold Dot ("Deep Curl") and I've used them and even gone up to 300gr hardcasts, all giving 800-900+ ft/lbs. The big advantage here is that the .452" JHP bullets are built to handle more velocity than most .451" .45 ACP designed bullets, which as mentioned, can be overworked if pushed too fast. Extremely versatile cartridge the .45 Super, wish it would catch on more.
Interesting that you say you reload 45 super using 45 colt projectiles. 45 Colt moves a heck of a lot slower even compared to 45 ACP, which one would think would mean pushing it to 45 Super velocities would expand way quicker than a standard 45 ACP like a GDHP. I just got my first 45 ACP pistol and thinking about getting some dies for it to reload 45 Super in my HK 45T. Not sure if I want to go with a 230gr or something much lighter and faster like a 165 or 180gr.
@@DIYDad1 Well it depends on the bullet, if you're talking about a standard velocity 250gr lead bullet then yeah a 45 Colt is pretty slow, but there is 45 Colt load data for Rugers that lets you load to to about the same as the .44 Magnum. There are a few bullets out there that are good options for warmer .45 Colt. All expanding bullets have a velocity window they operate in, 45 ACP .451" bullets don't go up that high, some .452" revolver style bullets are simply tougher. Depending on the level you load the 45 Super, 45 ACP bullets will work okay, but if you push it, you'll start needing stronger bullets because you'll exceed the velocity window the 45 ACP bullets are designed for. For instance the 230gr XTP (.451") vs a 250gr XTP (.452"), the 250gr XTP is designed to hold together at higher speeds. Simple as that, if you try pushing .451" 45 ACP designed bullets too fast what you end up with is poor penetration because the bullet breaks apart.
@@SDGlock23 Now I'm wondering if 45 Super would be better for longer range shots, like hunting scenarios where you aren't at a 7 yard self defense distance. At range obviously it's going to lose a bit of velocity further away from the muzzle, I bet it retains a lot more energy at say 50 yards or so and might actually expand and penetrate properly within that velocity envelope. Just a thought I had! Might make a good handgun hunting round for deer at medium range I bet!
Excellent demonstration. Mac over at Military Arms Channel showed only the 185grain 45 Super in his demonstration comparing it to the 10mm, and it makes the 45 Super look absolutely anemic to say the least. You did a much better job and showed a more fair representation of the capacity of the 45 Super round. Thankyou.
Great notes on the pistol wounding effects. Lots of people assume bigger is better…not always. I have a 1911 with swapped springs and firing pin plate for 45 super. So far it works, (very few rounds) no bulging cases or failures. I carry it for black bears and deer hunting in Virginia.
Not long ago, MAC' channel has a similar experiment with 45super vs 10mm (hollow points I believe")--- and the faster round mushroomed very quickly and only had a few inches of penetration. Very interesting results.
Yes the Underwood Xtreme Defenders do not rely on mushrooming to cause damage and therefore would not have over expanded and penetrated deeper. It would've been nice to see him test those.
XD-45 has a fully supported chamber. I handload Super and 45 +P+ for my Tactical 5" using Super brass. I have switched to a 20# spring but made no other changes. It shoots nice with no signs of bulged brass. YMMV
So since you handload both, I have scoured the interwebs (granted my google-fu is not great) and haven't really found any discussions on what the similarities and/or differences are between 45super and 45 +p+. Is it the same thing or is there a substantial difference? If they are really different what is the difference? I only ask from seeing no one offer factory loaded 45 +p+ but I do find 45super factory loadings.
If you look at some high velocity 10mm rounds, you can see the same phenomena where it “under-penetrates” in ballistics gel. Penetration is a function of Bc and velocity(if bullet design is held constant)The higher the velocity, the higher Bc is needed to maintain the same depth of penetration. My theory is that if you divide the ballistic coefficient by the velocity of the 45 super and do the same for the 10mm, you will tend to get nearly identical results.
If a round dumps the majority of its energy in the targeted person/animal under penetration of a few inches means little. Dealing with gel is different then human or animals. A persons skin can be equal to about 4 1/2 inches of gel one of the reasons bullets are often found under the skin without exit. Projectiles under 1600 fps on impact will not do enough damage to cause a massive blood pressure loss so placement in heart, brain and multiple major organs is critical.
I'm picking up an HK45C tomorrow... really excited! Everything I understand from HK is that it's NOT rated for Super, but definitely Plus P. Obviously it CAN handle it. Great video!
@@drivenbullet260 I believe the USP is rated for Super right out of the box due to the dual recoil spring whereas the HK45 lacks that. No clue if it can't handle a steady diet but the folks at HK told me absolutely not.
@@gregg6474 that's good to know. I just bought 8 boxes of that but haven't tested on anything yet. Might try it on some wet phone books or better yet a pork butt😄
@@ryanranard5187 I’m late to the party, but I haven’t found a good production 9mm that matches the same capabilities of .45 super. I carry both so if you can point me to the 9 I’m game because the smaller 9 is easier to carry. But the 135gr 1600fps 45 with 682lbs of energy is the nastiest I’ve found outside of some mean 10mm
sorry I'm old------er and hit wrong button.the Gt 255 hp at a estimated 925-960 fps in water jug tests expansion was a hair short of 7/8 in across and retaining 94-95 percent weight.and very accurate in my old hands. I greatly enjoyed and appreciate your videos. papa wishing you well
I really like sig v-crown 10mm, it's one of the hotter factory loads that's easy to find. Also it may be controversial but I have taken magazines loaded with hollowpoints and fmj alternated for woods defense, I figured at least every other round is going to do something to anything I run into.
Yeah t & T channel said ain’t no 10mm but buffalo bore rise to his standards and you waste money buying anything else but he is just doing videos to make money. I have never seen someone buy so many guns and not have a job! UA-cam is a scam now, you just have to try what you can find and use it before there’s none to buy before long!
Great video but it’s funny how the suppressor really doesn’t minimize the sound but it is awesome though great video man I’m a 45 guy that’s my every day carry a 45 I got the mod2 xd great video man appreciate it and I’m definitely going to get some 45+ rounds 💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾
Key takeaways (atleast for me): Shot placement is key. Penetration is secondary, but still key. The difference between cartridges is likely marginal in any real world scenario. Bullets matter more. Against an animal, more penetration is better, so pick a cartridge you like and find a solid/hard cast going fast. Against humans, once you have good shot placement and penetration, maximum expansion is the next best thing, both for a wider wound cavity and the expansion serves as flaps to slow the bullet preventing overpenetration.
GREAT Video. Professional Done. Very Good Information. I Shot alot of 45acp, 230 fmj, the 250 gr HARD CAST in 45 super is Interesting. For protection in the WILD.
You mentioned having a lot of bear in your area. I know what you mean, in my area, we have so many Bigfoot, you can't travel a mile or two on the highway, without seeing a dead one on the side of the road. This is why, in the woods around my area, we carry 45 Super for Bigfoot defense. (So many Bigfoot in our area, they have pushed out all Grizzly and Black Bear.)
Shot placement is more important than power in my opinion. That being said there are pros and cons for everything, I recommend shooting what you are comfortable and accurate with.
I’d love to see a run down 45 ACP +P, 45 super, 45 Super and 10mm…I keep going back and forth on which I would like to convert to for bear country time.
10mm is a contender with power and capacity, but if you already have a. 45 upgrade it's going to be a little cheaper then buying a new gun. But really most animal are going to be put down faster from shot placement than all out power. So in my opinion 10mm has a small edge over 45 super or .460 rowing.
depends on your gun and how much upgrades. Those of us who like quality firearms and got HK USPs in .45 can just throw super in. Others may need to upgrade but probably still cheaper than a G20. but really...what type of bears? A .45S will solve a black bear and even a large brown given enough fire volume. If you're in dense brush with potential for ambush neither of those IMO is up to the task; you will want .44 mag minimum bc your shot volume won't be there.
comparing apples to apples, 10mm and .45 super have similar energies, tho I think with an appropriately modified gun the .45 super has the case capacity to be pushed well beyond with handloads if desired. but with standard loads the 10mm will give a little more penetration and have slightly increased capacity, the .45 will cut a slightly wider hole, and as we saw in this video will probably still penetrate plenty deep. Both are great but my preference is for .45 super as I can easily shoot standard pressure and +p .45 in the same gun with zero modification, I just love the versatility of it. I also love the USP which is a great platform for it, if it came in 10mm I would probably have one of those also. I think many might prefer 10mm for having a couple extra rounds, but for me I am happy with 12+1. Can't go wrong with either, if you can't decide just flip a coin!
That’s the first I heard of that - my understanding was that +P is used in the same case as normal but with a small primer (to reduce that “blowout” real estate), but that 45 Super *is* a thicker case.
+P .45 acp is my preferrred round if I carry a 45. Hollow point expansion is much more reliable above 1000 fps. .45 super IMO is not worth the expense and extra parts in most cases to justify its performance. The hard cast loads are a special exception to be considered on dangerous game. 10mm is a much more practical option.
I really like 45 Super the larger of my EDC options is setup for Super and loaded with Underwood/Lehigh 174gr Controlled Fracturing. For my smaller EDC it's the 45 +P version.
Sounds like a terrible idea - I can feel a huge difference between hot 45acp +p and regular 45 acp hardball in a G21 - the Super seems like it would rip the slide off the frame and into your face!
@@jeffroberts760 well yea I can feel a difference between any standard pressure and + p loading. I haven’t personally done it but I’ve watched them run full mags of underwood without hiccup
1:05 I gotta ask...9x19 aka 9mm Parabellum aka 9mm Luger and .45 ACP were both invented around the same time, yet .45 ACP is always referred to as geriatric or archaic while 9x19 is considered a "modern" caliber. Why?
@@jeffroberts760 still, many UA-camrs talk about the 9mm as if it were a modern round, comparing it to the .45 as if it were baby new year and father time. It gets a bit tiresome.
Interesting video, thank you! It's of special interest to me because I picked up an HK 45C for my Daily Carry just a few months ago. I went with +P for it only because I was unsure if the gun was rated for Super My "bedside" gun is a .460 Rowland conversion in major part because of your videos on that years ago. Rowland has recently started offering 240gr, which I haven't been able to get my hands on yet; but from a non-reloader perspective, it appears to be a .44 Mag projectile which SHOULD resist fragmenting better (as it should be designed from the start for higher velocities).
I also own a 45c. It's probably my favorite pistol of them all. I know the uspc 45 is rated for super but I'm not sure about the 45c. Both pistols are hammer forged cannon grade steel so the barrel will definitely handle it. There's a lot of good info on the HK forum about this so check it out. Lots of great info and some smart people on there to help. Hope this helps. Stay safe 👍
Try the full size HK45. I had to get the HK45C first and then picked up the full size, I like it a little better. And yes, both the HK45 and HK45C can fire +p. It's in right in the manual. It does say it will cause wear faster. The HK Mark 23 is the only one recommended for 45 super, though.
@@MrSmith-zy2bp This. The Mark 23 is the only one you can shoot it right out of the box with no issues really. USP45 full size is generally regarded as G2G as well but a stiffer spring is recommended if you shoot a good amount of Super. The other 45s have handled it but it’s just not a good idea at all. Especially the compacts.
Thanks for testing one of my carry ammo choices. I don’t EDC a .45 but I do carry a full size M1911 for the special application of “sheepdog” duty at my synagogue, and that Remington HTP 185 grain is what’s on board. For standard pressure .45 ACP I would say 185 grain is the projectile weight of choice in a defensive round as it delivers higher velocity and significantly more energy on the target than standard pressure 230 grain. The higher pressure stuff is neat, but would require a different gun, and is unnecessary for my purposes.
In the woods of Vermont I carry an hk45 with underwood 45 hardcast flatnose. Thankfully haven't had a bad encounter with my local black bears in many years.
My own testing using the MK23 and the Underwood 230gr fragments, but it retains enough mass to penetrate around 16”…regardless of the clothing barrier. I wish Underwood would load the XTP as well. The 255gr hardcast performs well. I haven’t noticed much difference between it and 220gr 10mm, except the .45 is a slightly larger diameter….
Underwood used to load the XTP in super, I bought a couple boxes many years back. When COVID hit I went to order more just to stock up as I saw the writing on the wall with the ammo shortage, but was dismayed to see they stopped making them! Not sure why, its a great woods round for most of the lower 48, and although I am not a handgun hunter I imagine it would be great for that application also. If reloading stuff ever comes back to normal I would eventually like to start making my own, maybe experiment with 250 gr .45 Colt XTPs. Underwood also used to load Gold Dots in super also! Maybe they found it underperformed due to over expansion, but seemed like a great round.
In my experience, Remington HTP for semi autos are pretty lack luster with expansion. However, I actually have had pretty luck with semi jacketed hollow points for .357 mag. The only thing that I find interesting about HTPs is they have something with their powder that gives it a unique scent after firing. I have no idea what it is.
.45 ACP is one of those cartridges that people seem to want left alone. .45 GAP was a noticeable improvement. It could fit in smaller platforms, create more power despite being smaller, thanks to the increase in pressure. Failed miserably anyway. .45 Super stepped the power up even more, but it only exists on a very small level today. Some of the "legacy" cartridges just seem to be so ingrained that people don't want them to be changed much.
Upon .45 GAPs debut, like one manufacturer loaded it to perhaps 20 fps faster; all other loadings were pretty much the same. Higher pressure but a smaller case = roughly the same velocities. (GAP only really had 185 and 200 gr bullets, anyway)
@@mdd1963 Only a few manufactures load 10mm anywhere near it's potential. That dosen't mean it dosen't have that potential. The case capacity for .45 ACP dosen't even matter since it can't use it anyway. If you loaded a max pressure .45 GAP with a 230 grain bullet, it would be moving ~100 FPS faster than a max pressure .45 ACP 230 grain bullet. The point is, when it comes to the old cartridges that we all already use, a large section of the market dosen't care about alternatives. Any cartridge finding a permanent place in the market has to be something different. Like 5.7x28. Something that dosen't have a firmly established direct alternative.
@@pewpewTN WHen Hodgdon used to list .45 GAP reloading data *with 230 gr bullets* 15 years ago, it had a loading or two at 730 fps listed. Today, there are no 230 gr reloads listed at all...nor any factory ammo at all, much less at 230 grain. Yep , quite a winner.
@@pewpewTN Although the .45 ACP has more case capacity than needed...the GAP did not. (No room for powder when using 230 gr bullets, as evidence by zero handloading data at that bullet weight any more by Hodgdon/Winchester/IMR)
Thanks for this. I learned something. Glad you differentiated between shooting humans vs dangerous animals. Using a hardcast flat or cutter projectile is whats needed for straightline penetration against dense animal hide and bone. Keep up the good work.
Did you happen to catch Joe Satriani latest album "elephants of Mars"? Pretty good stuff- thanks for the videos over the years. My first gun was my pops 1911 shot it when I was 8.
When you're talking about using a pistol or a round for personal defense, the amount of permanent wound cavity is the best indicator of how effective the cartridges. Just because it might be moving faster and it stops quicker but it produces a larger permanent wound cavity it will still be more effective. A prime example is the 9 mm 115 grain + p + law enforcement round maybe federal. That particular 9 mm cartridge, although it almost always fragments. It does not have a great amount of penetration. Has been within a couple points of 357 Magnum in first shot stop capability at is the closest contender in 9 mm. The second closest and possibly is better, is the 124 grain Underwood + p + firing the 124 grain hollow point 9 mm. However it's so much easier to just shoot a 38 Super or 9 x 23 or 357 Sig if you want to shoot a semi-auto. All three of those cartridges to make major power far easier than hopping up a 9 mm to a point where you're actually endangering yourself in some of the Firearms they are chambered in. Including a Glock. If you've ever seen the case that comes out of the Glock, you understand why they are ultimately reliable. Because they have a massive chamber. To the point I believe they are functionally dangerous. Reloading shells out of a Glock is not easy. Because of the stressors you have to put the shell casing under to get it back into shape. There is no reason to make a cavernous chamber to accomplish ultimate reliability. Probably why the 40 Smith and Glocks were blowing up here in Detroit. One because the Detroit police were stupidly trying to shoot lead bullets through them. Something that even Glock tells you not to do. But warm loads in 40 Smith we're disassembling those firearms on a regular basis. But that's what happens when you have a gun specifically designed for 9 mm and you chamber it in a considerably more powerful cartridge that is actually made to stop people. The 40 Smith in its original form, exactly copied the most capable cartridge of the late 1800s, which was a 3840 which was a 180 grain projectile at 1000 feet per second. The most popular cartridge of the old west. Was not the 45 Colt. It was the 3840. And the 40 Smith & Wesson exactly duplicate those ballistics. Those are quite good. I prefer the 155 265 grain hollow point in the 1200 ft per second range. Those will do 30% more permanent wood cavity that the best 9mmm all day long. The day that I asked the FBI. I've read their book that they wrote on the 9mmm. It is not what they profess it to be, they are lying to you. They went to the night mmmm because it's cheaper. It is cheaper to train these numbskulls that they are giving badges to. And it is cheaper to purchase ammo in bulk, they would get pretty much the same deal if they had ordered that much ammo in 40 Smith. But when I can give up two rounds of magazine capacity yet still deliver more energy to the Target and do more damage. I will take the more effective round every time. There is no reason to fire your gun so fast that you're firing it faster than your brain can react. And if you constantly have at least one if not two or three other officers around you if you get into a gunfight. You could carry 380 and be just as effective. When I'm on my own out there, in the real world, I need to be able to do as much practical damage with each and every shot as possible. And the 9 mmm, as much as I like the nine-millimeter. I own an Argentine military Browning hi-power which is the most accurate 9 mil I've ever seen in my life. It has a 4.7 inch barrel that gets every bit of velocity out of any round I put in it. I do carry it at times. But I carry it with more than ample ammo. Because I'm going to need it. But I usually carry a 40 Smith or 45 when I carry a semi-auto. And magazine capacity is secondary when you can change magazines in a couple of seconds. Mag dumps are worthless because shooting holes in their will not suffocate the perpetrator that you were trying to stop.
My stock Ruger Blackhawk Convertible shoots hot .45 Super handloads just fine - it is the perfect spot between .45 acp and ruger loaded Colt .45, which stings the palm of my hand.
@@Peeter8 Yea, you can as long as the spring isn't too much for it. I just didn't need a 50th caliber to keep ammo for, so after adding the 10mm, I put to bed the idea of getting a .45 Super conversion. At least for the time being. Always a possibility I will revist it in the future.
Smith & Wesson stated that their m&p 45 2.0 has a fully supported chamber and is +p rated..so it should be able to run the 45 super with maybe a recoil spring & guide rod change.
Did you try it yet? I tried it in mine. Not good. Won't recommend full 45 super. I did a wolf recoil spring. It just made it unreliable. Needs 24lb for underwood. Won't run cheap 45acp anymore. 45acp needs 13-16lb spring. The barrel is thin and ramped too much for 45super, unsupported chamber. And the guns frame is too light. Stresses and flexes too much. M&P is a 9mm size style frame modified for 45acp. Not enough frame for 45 super. Feels like it will explode compared to my 1911 and USP. M&P 45 At your own risk, in my opinion
How did that Underwood 255 grain function in your HK45C and your MK23?? I bought some several years back from Underwood , as well as a similar profile from Buffalo Bore. Both looked a little short in overall length, maybe slightly below spec but I didn't measure. Anyway, both would frequently nose dive into the feed ramp and choke up both my HK45C as well as my fullsize USPt. They are the only rounds to ever cause any issues in either platform, which was a shame I was really hoping to use them for woods carry but they just were not reliable for me. I ended up using Underwood 230 XTPs at 1100fps (which sadly I do not think they offer any more), which is probably more ideal in my neck of the woods anyway since there aren't any brown bear or anything like that. In any case .45 super is the best kept secret. My stock USP could seamlessly run anything from mouse fart .45 target loads to .45 super and back again without a hiccup. It allows for a huge range of applications with a single pistol; target shooting, urban self defense, woods self defense, hunting, and its really fun to shoot.
@@mdd1963 They really aren’t tho… As a woods round they’re fantastic for everything except maybe Grizzlies. Even those have been taken down with Xtreme penetrators in Alaska. They penetrate deep (maybe not as much as heavy HC but still deep) and do more than just poke a hole in the animal. What’s not to like? As a HD/CCW round the defenders seem promising but I’ll stick with hollow points for now until I can test them my self.
@@mdd1963 what? haha... no they arent. they are incredible. buy some and do testing or if youre lazy, go to paul harrell's youtube and look at his tests of them. they perform better than hallow points.
I don't have a USP in 45 but I've always wanted one. I do own a USP in 40 that I converted to 10mm so I don't doubt that they are safe for 45 super. I've got a conversation barrel for 460 Rowland for my 1911. It's a hoot to shoot.
So I may have missed it but did you test any 45 +p hard cast bullets or just the 45 super hard cast? I would like to know how deep a regular 45 or 45+p would penetrate compared to the 45 super.
If clear synth gel overepesents about +25% penetration compared to brown organic gel, then to get the FBI recommended minimum of 12 in brown, we should look for at least 15-16 in clear. All of the shots that got 9 to 14 in clear would likely fail to reach vitals in a real bad guy.
i mean if you believe that lol people have shot basic .380s straight through to the spine of hogs, chest shots i think people are overly worried about penetration
Great Video. It's crazy to me how in the comments people think 45super is a one way conversion when obviously it is not. I been shooting 45super from my Glock 30S for a while now. Seems the hollow points made for 45acp are too fragile for supers. The hardcasts are my favorite, but recoil so hard. Now I been stocking up on the Xtreme Defenders in 45super, which recoil much less. Pass on the Xtreme Penetrators, I would only use the hardcasts for huge animals. I'm sure the 135gr Xtreme Defenders at 1500fps are enough for cougar, wolf, black bear, as well as humans without all the added recoil. All is needed in the G30S is a 20lbs recoil spring. Now I use a KKM threaded barrel and sometimes a compensator. Underwood 45super ammo is fairly priced and usually less than 45acp or +P defensive ammo.
I have a Glock 30 Gen 3 with a Lone Wolf barrel and Galloway ss guide rod assembly. I can't remember if I ordered the 17 lb or the 20 spring. Would 17 lbs be enough for the. 45 Super?
@@gregorymckoy3179 I recommend the 20lbs. My first 45super trial was with the factory barrel and a 20lbs Galloway SS RSA. Your G30 mags should be fine, but G21 mags might be too weak to properly cycle. I worry about early unlocking with a 17lbs as my G30S lighter slide will have small indications of this even with +p ammo. I found that both Galloway and CDS SS RSA locking pressure (the amount of force right before the Glock goes into battery) is less than the factory RSA, but like I said, the 20lbs seemed to work correctly enough. It's best to always test your Glock with your defense ammo in your carry mag. Start by firing 1 round and examine the case primer. Compare it to other .45auto ammo you fire. Check for odd strikes, smearing, and over pressures. Unlikely to happen, but I dont know your gun. Best to stay safe. They have not bitten me in any way.
@@alexskillz45 thanks for the reply. I will see if I can find my receipt from when I purchased it. I have a heavier striker spring in it, stronger extractor spring and the Ghost Rocket trigger connector. It shoots all the ammo I have thrown at it including +P without cycling problems.
@@alexskillz45 I found my original package for the guide rod and recoil spring assembly. I have the 20 lb spring. Do I need anything else besides the fully supported barrel chamber for .45 Super? I'm not going to be using it on a regular basis anyway just wanted other options. Thanks again!
@@gregorymckoy3179 At the minimum you need the 20lbs RSA. The Glock barrel will handle JHP just fine. Also I made the move to Xtreme Defenders and penetraters, they have less recoil and are safe in the Glock barrel. I have not tried the 255gr hardcast from the factory barrel, I think it is borderline safe. With your LW barrel, you need not worry about what ammo to use, I just hope you find a holster. I use an R&R IWB with TLR7a, I'm sure I could have asked them to make it opened end, but forgot, I just cut the barrel end off and all is good. I have a KKM Threaded Barrel 4.5". The Glock Polygonal 3.77" Barrel will match the velocities from a 4.5" Aftermarket barrel, so if you have a 3.77" aftermaket barrel you will be not getting rated velocities. The stronger firing pin spring is not necessary, but I recommend it. I am using a Ghost Trigger Kit with the 6lbs FPS and a Ghost Avenger 3.5lbs connector, breaking right below 5lbs on the trigger. There is a less pronounced wall, but the trigger feels great. You should be able to run 230gr range ammo reliably, all the way up to 255gr 45super.
Underwood is not a Wadcuttter It’s a 255gr Hardcast 18 BHN Tek Coated RNFN Only the 450 SMC in 255gr is a Wadcuttter Those 45 ACP bullets for 45 Super is not recommended. Suggest the 240 and 250gr XTP bullets for jacketed in 45 Super. Here in Alaska 250/255 Hardcast at 22 BHN works excellent with 8.5 of PP for 1065 fps in KKM 4.6” G21 and 8.8 PP with 255gr SWC Keith at 1100 fps.
I meant to say 10mm when I said 9mm; it happens....
Great work sir thank you!
HK MK23 in 10mm would be awesome if it happens!
Unsubing
@@Rich45464 Triggered
I usually say 6” when I mean 9”
Thanks for remembering to attribute this idea to my Dad, Dean A. Grennell, former managing editor of GunWolrd magazine. It should be noted that both Ace Hindman and Tom Ferguson made significant contributions to the development of these firearms and caliber.
That’s really cool. Do you or your dad still shoot the caliber at all? I’ve always thought of 45 super as the 45 of the 21st century.
@@DarkArtsDeepDive I do still shoot this caliber. Unluckily my Dad passed away a number of years ago.
@@chuckgrennell496 Sorry to hear about your dad passing. I Appreciate the work he did
Your Dad was one of my favorite gun writers. In the pre internet days he was a significant source of hand loading data. His articles were entertaining as well as informative. He ranks right up there with Skeeter and Elmer. I had the pleasure of meeting him at the NRA convention in New Orleans 1985ish.
@@chuckgrennell496 I just wrote an article for the November issue of Sixgunner about the .45 Super. I mentioned your dad , Ace Hindman and Tom Ferguson briefly. The Article is a two part article. If you would like to provide some more information about your dad for part 2 I would be more than happy to add it.
I know personally that .45 super hardcast goes through a grizzly skull
A live one or did you find a skull and try it?
bruh
@@bannedbycommieyoutube5time920 a live one, albeit not a huge one. 6 ft 450 lbs
@@AlaskanBallistics that’s big enough. Glad you came out in one piece, good shooting 🇺🇸
@@AlaskanBallistics Just curious, would you prefer a 12 ga slug or .308 in a semiautomatic platform (20 round capacity) for Grizzly defense? The shotgun could also be semiautomatic too.
I'm not a 45 guy, but I absolutely love getting knowledge when it comes to firearm related things. Especially ammo and firearm functionality.
Nice video! Buuuut, everyone(and by everyone, I mean me!) wants to see what the Underwood Extreme Defense 120 grain 45 super and the 200 grain Extreme Penetrator will do in gel and against 3A armor. Looking forward to that because no one else has done it!
💯 agreed!
Disagree. Zero interest in those ED & EP rounds in any cartridge. Much rather have hard cast for penetration and top hollow points for social work.
Yes
almost certainly it will penetrate, a lukewarm 10mm xd and xp were able to penetrate 3a at lower velocities. I think the vid was on tfbtv.
Btw underwood recently switched their .45 acp/super to the 135gr exd. Basically the same projectile but with blunter yet harder flutes due to being cold formed rather than machined
@@jfruser
You’re ignorant if you’re not into solid copper. Bill Wilson just purchased Lehigh at a premium to get in on this amazing bullet technology.
I’ve used the 45 Super 255 hard cast and it’s a great woods round.
How many rounds can you get off before the bear is on you though?
I load my own with the Lee 452-255-RF.
@@johnmills837 Real Super shooters hand load their own. Others are just "posers". .450 SMC (Suck My C**k) is the same. Without the royalties payed to the Super guy's trade mark,. F**k him.
Picked up an HK 45 because it can run 45super out of the box. And it runs 45super without a flaw. It's my woods gun for bear, including grizzly. I know it's kinda light for grizzly, but 44mag is too. Besides, I really, really wanted a 45acp in my collection.
the HK 45 is to my knowledge *not* rated for Super...is it? the USP .45 is. The HK45 i have read in multiple places was not
No way is the 44 mag too light for bears, and almost anything else. I hunt with 280, 300, and even 340 gr. loads from Hornady, Cor Bon, Buffalo Bore, and Underwood. But I love hunting deer and hogs with my Marlin Camp 45 carbine with 45 acp plus loads.
@@bobjones-bt9bhThe USP and hk45 are almost identical. I have both. From my real world testing, 45 super runs fine in the HK45.
I wouldn’t say .45 super is too light for bear….. it’s my bear gun. 10+1 @900 ft/lbs ain’t no joke. Even 9mm is fine bear protection. It’s been 100% effective so far…..
@@zackzittel7683 Huh, well with all due respect I'm not sure there's any Bear Hunt guides carrying 9mm. I believe Chuke's outdoor adventures says bear guns start at 10mm. I could be wrong, I only have drop bears to worry about and have only hunted rabbit and duck here, in Australia.
I know a lot of people aren't fond of the MK23, but I love that pistol. I've owned a few HK USPs and they are terrific products and I'm actually looking to add a MK23 to my collection.
My HK45T runs .45 Super just fine. I was looking at getting a 10mm then I discovered .45 Super. I even reload it now. Finding brass is nearly impossible right about now. Thanks for the video! Aloha 🤙🏽
Also… would have loved to see a comparison with Hornady Critical Duty in .45acp. My preferred carry round.
Thank you for this info. I was considering the HK45 full myself.
I did exactly the same thing except with a USP tactical. Love it.
@@quietus13 agreed. Definitely cured me of diving into the 10mm rabbit hole. Have a great weekend! Aloha 🤙🏽
I just got a 45T this weekend, what's your preferred projectile for hand loads? I'm thinking maybe a hot loaded deer hunting load? I figure this might be very effective out to say 50 yards or so. I was thinking maybe one of the Underwood loads or Buffalo Bore loads for hunting. I know some projectiles designed for 45 ACP loaded too hot will just over-expand and fall short of proper penetration. I just don't know if it would make more sense to go for a 165 or 180gr projectile, or more like a 230gr for this purpose.
I love underwood ammo. Actually I love any ammo. I love 45 acp. Lot of love. Thanks Mike 🇺🇸
I just love ammo.
i love ammo price today
Check out .40 Super.. It's close to .44 magnum power
@@DraconisMarchVII 😮 you're a ammosexual
Thanks for what you do Mike, and thank you for your service.
I like the way you showed what a fully supported chamber should look like vs one that isn’t. Good close up clear view. Thanks, good video
Personally I love 230gr 45ACP +p for my carry ammo and only thing I carry is my handloads or Underwood. I've never tried 45 Super before but I'm going to look into it for sure... Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!
Check the Laws Before you Use handloads in Self Defence!!!
I’m carrying corbon 45 acp 185 +p or 200+p with approximately 500flbs of energy. I have to think it will be pretty devastating.
TPR
High chamber pressure in 45 Super means losing the strength of low pressure 45 ACP, namely that low pressure rounds are optimized for heavyweight bullets and hence larger calibers. 45 Super should work best with 185g and lighter bullets, whereas 45 ACP is optimized for up to 230g. 120g Xtreme Defender would be ideal in 45 Super.
I converted Glock 21 and Glock 30. I wish I had done it years ago!!!!!!!
If I can ask, which pistol do you carry? I'm trying to learn which would be best for me. Thanks.
One neat aspect of reloading .45 Super is that if you have a well supported chamber and a comp, you can load it to 460 Rowland spec but also what's neat is playing around with .452" JHP and hardcast bullets that are essentially .45 Colt revolver bullets. These include the 250gr XTP and 250gr Gold Dot ("Deep Curl") and I've used them and even gone up to 300gr hardcasts, all giving 800-900+ ft/lbs. The big advantage here is that the .452" JHP bullets are built to handle more velocity than most .451" .45 ACP designed bullets, which as mentioned, can be overworked if pushed too fast. Extremely versatile cartridge the .45 Super, wish it would catch on more.
Interesting that you say you reload 45 super using 45 colt projectiles. 45 Colt moves a heck of a lot slower even compared to 45 ACP, which one would think would mean pushing it to 45 Super velocities would expand way quicker than a standard 45 ACP like a GDHP. I just got my first 45 ACP pistol and thinking about getting some dies for it to reload 45 Super in my HK 45T. Not sure if I want to go with a 230gr or something much lighter and faster like a 165 or 180gr.
@@DIYDad1 Well it depends on the bullet, if you're talking about a standard velocity 250gr lead bullet then yeah a 45 Colt is pretty slow, but there is 45 Colt load data for Rugers that lets you load to to about the same as the .44 Magnum. There are a few bullets out there that are good options for warmer .45 Colt. All expanding bullets have a velocity window they operate in, 45 ACP .451" bullets don't go up that high, some .452" revolver style bullets are simply tougher. Depending on the level you load the 45 Super, 45 ACP bullets will work okay, but if you push it, you'll start needing stronger bullets because you'll exceed the velocity window the 45 ACP bullets are designed for. For instance the 230gr XTP (.451") vs a 250gr XTP (.452"), the 250gr XTP is designed to hold together at higher speeds. Simple as that, if you try pushing .451" 45 ACP designed bullets too fast what you end up with is poor penetration because the bullet breaks apart.
@@SDGlock23 Now I'm wondering if 45 Super would be better for longer range shots, like hunting scenarios where you aren't at a 7 yard self defense distance. At range obviously it's going to lose a bit of velocity further away from the muzzle, I bet it retains a lot more energy at say 50 yards or so and might actually expand and penetrate properly within that velocity envelope. Just a thought I had! Might make a good handgun hunting round for deer at medium range I bet!
@@DIYDad1The original 45 Colt BP load pushed a 255gr bullet at 1050!
Excellent demonstration. Mac over at Military Arms Channel showed only the 185grain 45 Super in his demonstration comparing it to the 10mm, and it makes the 45 Super look absolutely anemic to say the least. You did a much better job and showed a more fair representation of the capacity of the 45 Super round. Thankyou.
Interesting results. I own both pistols used in the test so it’s nice to see how the guns and cartridges work together. Great video.
Great notes on the pistol wounding effects. Lots of people assume bigger is better…not always.
I have a 1911 with swapped springs and firing pin plate for 45 super. So far it works, (very few rounds) no bulging cases or failures. I carry it for black bears and deer hunting in Virginia.
When I go hiking in VA I take my Desert Eagle 50ae just because of the bears.
Not long ago, MAC' channel has a similar experiment with 45super vs 10mm (hollow points I believe")--- and the faster round mushroomed very quickly and only had a few inches of penetration. Very interesting results.
Yes i believe they used gold dots or nosler rounds which are relatively weak for hotter velocities thus under penetrating. Xtps would do the trick.
Yes the Underwood Xtreme Defenders do not rely on mushrooming to cause damage and therefore would not have over expanded and penetrated deeper. It would've been nice to see him test those.
XD-45 has a fully supported chamber. I handload Super and 45 +P+ for my Tactical 5" using Super brass. I have switched to a 20# spring but made no other changes. It shoots nice with no signs of bulged brass. YMMV
So since you handload both, I have scoured the interwebs (granted my google-fu is not great) and haven't really found any discussions on what the similarities and/or differences are between 45super and 45 +p+. Is it the same thing or is there a substantial difference? If they are really different what is the difference?
I only ask from seeing no one offer factory loaded 45 +p+ but I do find 45super factory loadings.
with the .45 super, brass thickness at case head, and near it, are thicker than +p acp.
Do it with regular acp brass and it'll most likely work fine
If you look at some high velocity 10mm rounds, you can see the same phenomena where it “under-penetrates” in ballistics gel. Penetration is a function of Bc and velocity(if bullet design is held constant)The higher the velocity, the higher Bc is needed to maintain the same depth of penetration. My theory is that if you divide the ballistic coefficient by the velocity of the 45 super and do the same for the 10mm, you will tend to get nearly identical results.
If a round dumps the majority of its energy in the targeted person/animal under penetration of a few inches means little. Dealing with gel is different then human or animals. A persons skin can be equal to about 4 1/2 inches of gel one of the reasons bullets are often found under the skin without exit. Projectiles under 1600 fps on impact will not do enough damage to cause a massive blood pressure loss so placement in heart, brain and multiple major organs is critical.
To answer this currently timeless question (?) of which is better: The 45 Super or the 45 ACP. I say YES! Thanks Michael, as always.
Why differentiate when you can shoot both!!! And throw in +P as a benefit!!!!!
08:29 Oh my God! That look like some military award or a medal! Perfect blossom shape!!!! ❤❤❤
Would love to see a .308 video discussing different loads for different situations: hunting, target shooting, long distance shooting etc.
Yes!
Especially since I just got a .308 AR. Hello from CA where they don't like us to have AR's haha.
My kids and I load 45 Super for a little 45 Carbine we built. We get 1750fps with 185 JHP and 1500 with 230 JHP and that is with starting loads.
I was told that I’ll only need 9mm for the rest of my days. You mean there are other handgun calibers besides 9mm!?!? The internet lied to me!!!
Well, yeah. It blows the lungs right out the back of the body don't ya know...
More of this type of vid. would be appreciated.
cool test Mike, the 230 grain Super was/is a predator stopper.!
Thanks brother.I have an HK usp 45 was looking into getting some 45 super for the woods.
do it you won't regret it. I got some years ago and i got hooked. my USP is now a dedicated .45 super bedside/woods gun, just love it.
I'm picking up an HK45C tomorrow... really excited! Everything I understand from HK is that it's NOT rated for Super, but definitely Plus P.
Obviously it CAN handle it.
Great video!
@@drivenbullet260 I believe the USP is rated for Super right out of the box due to the dual recoil spring whereas the HK45 lacks that. No clue if it can't handle a steady diet but the folks at HK told me absolutely not.
As always an informative video. Thank you
Some really impressive energy numbers!
Getting my edumaction today with Mike - heard of .38 super but never .45 super before. . .
A couple years ago I sold all my 38 Super I had a llama that was just a beautifully made in Spain handgun my wife says I always say that
how bout 45 Winchester Magnum?
It's definitely more powerful but it's also more expensive and less available. Does that make it better? 45 ACP is powerful enough for me
If you need a little something extra, Hornaday critical duty 200g +P is a nice upgrade for most 45acp guns and pretty easy to find.
Commie caliber what it is, John Moses Browning didn't okay it.
@@gregg6474 that's good to know. I just bought 8 boxes of that but haven't tested on anything yet. Might try it on some wet phone books or better yet a pork butt😄
45 acp really isn’t all that powerful. Well when compared to 9mm or 40 s&w. They all roughly have comparable foot pounds of energies as each other
@@ryanranard5187 I’m late to the party, but I haven’t found a good production 9mm that matches the same capabilities of .45 super. I carry both so if you can point me to the 9 I’m game because the smaller 9 is easier to carry. But the 135gr 1600fps 45 with 682lbs of energy is the nastiest I’ve found outside of some mean 10mm
I love my Colt 45 all day everyday. Thank you very much. Great channel by the way.
great video Mrgunsngear, you basically sold an HK with your honest review here.
Dude, you got big hands to make that mk23 look like a regular gun
sorry I'm old------er and hit wrong button.the Gt 255 hp at a estimated 925-960 fps in water jug tests expansion was a hair short of 7/8 in across and retaining 94-95 percent weight.and very accurate in my old hands. I greatly enjoyed and appreciate your videos. papa wishing you well
I didn't even see this video. Thank you for making it. Appreciate your channel man.
I got a bunch of that speer g2 back when the Leo's were selling it off and boy does my usp and g21 like that stuff.
I really like sig v-crown 10mm, it's one of the hotter factory loads that's easy to find. Also it may be controversial but I have taken magazines loaded with hollowpoints and fmj alternated for woods defense, I figured at least every other round is going to do something to anything I run into.
Yeah t & T channel said ain’t no 10mm but buffalo bore rise to his standards and you waste money buying anything else but he is just doing videos to make money. I have never seen someone buy so many guns and not have a job! UA-cam is a scam now, you just have to try what you can find and use it before there’s none to buy before long!
This round is new to me. Great test.
Great info👍 I'm not going to say what I carry as not to be judged. Modernization of something is never hurt💯
Great video but it’s funny how the suppressor really doesn’t minimize the sound but it is awesome though great video man I’m a 45 guy that’s my every day carry a 45 I got the mod2 xd great video man appreciate it and I’m definitely going to get some 45+ rounds 💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾
You're the best. Thanks Mike.
The pic at 1:42 of the difference between a fully supported chamber vs not fully supported got a subscribe from me. thank you.
I had to carry that boat anchor HK for almost a decade. I can attest that damn thing will handle any load you put in it.
Very Good Job. Keep doing the Good work! P.S the price (for now) of the .45 ACP +P 255gr. Hard Cast 20 rounds is $27, How much was yours?
Key takeaways (atleast for me):
Shot placement is key.
Penetration is secondary, but still key.
The difference between cartridges is likely marginal in any real world scenario. Bullets matter more.
Against an animal, more penetration is better, so pick a cartridge you like and find a solid/hard cast going fast.
Against humans, once you have good shot placement and penetration, maximum expansion is the next best thing, both for a wider wound cavity and the expansion serves as flaps to slow the bullet preventing overpenetration.
No matter what you're up against shot placement is everything
You passed right over the most salient, most key point of all: projectile construction.
GREAT Video. Professional Done. Very Good Information. I Shot alot of 45acp, 230 fmj, the 250 gr HARD CAST in 45 super is Interesting. For protection in the WILD.
You mentioned having a lot of bear in your area. I know what you mean, in my area, we have so many Bigfoot, you can't travel a mile or two on the highway, without seeing a dead one on the side of the road. This is why, in the woods around my area, we carry 45 Super for Bigfoot defense. (So many Bigfoot in our area, they have pushed out all Grizzly and Black Bear.)
Great info, as usual! Thank you!
Two world wars!
🤣
🇺🇸
Muh stoppin' pahr!
Soon to be 3!!!
“They all fall to hardball”
I like the .45 super but I always ran .45 SMC in my pistol and I was happy with it I think it was a 185gr nosler hp it was a nasty round
450 SMC.
Shot placement is more important than power in my opinion. That being said there are pros and cons for everything, I recommend shooting what you are comfortable and accurate with.
On humans sure, .less so on bears with calibers unable to penetrate skull bone
I’d love to see a run down 45 ACP +P, 45 super, 45 Super and 10mm…I keep going back and forth on which I would like to convert to for bear country time.
10mm is a contender with power and capacity, but if you already have a. 45 upgrade it's going to be a little cheaper then buying a new gun. But really most animal are going to be put down faster from shot placement than all out power. So in my opinion 10mm has a small edge over 45 super or .460 rowing.
depends on your gun and how much upgrades. Those of us who like quality firearms and got HK USPs in .45 can just throw super in. Others may need to upgrade but probably still cheaper than a G20.
but really...what type of bears? A .45S will solve a black bear and even a large brown given enough fire volume. If you're in dense brush with potential for ambush neither of those IMO is up to the task; you will want .44 mag minimum bc your shot volume won't be there.
DESERT EAGLE in 44 Magnum is really good for that
comparing apples to apples, 10mm and .45 super have similar energies, tho I think with an appropriately modified gun the .45 super has the case capacity to be pushed well beyond with handloads if desired. but with standard loads the 10mm will give a little more penetration and have slightly increased capacity, the .45 will cut a slightly wider hole, and as we saw in this video will probably still penetrate plenty deep. Both are great but my preference is for .45 super as I can easily shoot standard pressure and +p .45 in the same gun with zero modification, I just love the versatility of it. I also love the USP which is a great platform for it, if it came in 10mm I would probably have one of those also. I think many might prefer 10mm for having a couple extra rounds, but for me I am happy with 12+1. Can't go wrong with either, if you can't decide just flip a coin!
Desert Eagle 50ae all the way for bear country. They have a 500-grain round too, I think. I normally shoot with your average AE round of 375-grain.
Nice video and comparison! Man that 45 super ammo really zings through that gel. Guess I'll have to look for a pistol that will handle it. Thanks!
Don't forget to get a stronger magazine spring too! Makes feeding the rounds smoother, not just a barrel and recoil Spring
Would like to see gel test of the 135 grain Underwood .45 Super Extreme Defender
Yes
I wasn't aware that +P loads used heavier brass than normal loads.
That’s the first I heard of that - my understanding was that +P is used in the same case as normal but with a small primer (to reduce that “blowout” real estate), but that 45 Super *is* a thicker case.
+P .45 acp is my preferrred round if I carry a 45. Hollow point expansion is much more reliable above 1000 fps. .45 super IMO is not worth the expense and extra parts in most cases to justify its performance. The hard cast loads are a special exception to be considered on dangerous game. 10mm is a much more practical option.
I’ve seen a 45 +p Winchester ranger T after expansion. Massive
I agree.
I decided having .45 ACP & 10mm was way more practical than having .45 Super.
Hornaday 220 grain critical duty +P is also a good round to check out.
I really like 45 Super the larger of my EDC options is setup for Super and loaded with Underwood/Lehigh 174gr Controlled Fracturing. For my smaller EDC it's the 45 +P version.
My sentiments, exactly.
Finally a video Ive been waiting for after converting my Kimber to 45 super
What parts did you use for conversion? Trying to do the same with a tisas duty model
I know a couple guys that run .45 super out of stock Glock 21’s. I’ve been wanting to try it myself but still just too nervous to do it lol
Sounds like a terrible idea - I can feel a huge difference between hot 45acp +p and regular 45 acp hardball in a G21 - the Super seems like it would rip the slide off the frame and into your face!
@@jeffroberts760 well yea I can feel a difference between any standard pressure and + p loading. I haven’t personally done it but I’ve watched them run full mags of underwood without hiccup
@@jeffroberts760 it works fine!! And I load ‘em hot!! Ported storm lake barrel and 24 lb spring. Leaves dents in my AR 500 plate from 20 yds
Underwood uses Nosler bullets in their 45 super which is a mistake. They need to use hornady xtp's.
1:05 I gotta ask...9x19 aka 9mm Parabellum aka 9mm Luger and .45 ACP were both invented around the same time, yet .45 ACP is always referred to as geriatric or archaic while 9x19 is considered a "modern" caliber. Why?
He put a text edit in the video saying he meant to say 10mm👍🏻
@@jeffroberts760 ok. I saw the edit, but I wasn't sure what he was talking about.
@@jeffroberts760 still, many UA-camrs talk about the 9mm as if it were a modern round, comparing it to the .45 as if it were baby new year and father time. It gets a bit tiresome.
@@maverickpaladin4155 I have seen some of that yes, agreed
My guess is because of modern adoption has allowed 9mm to be upgraded with time.
the opening pattern on that Vcrown was so perfect.
Agreed - Almost all the sig v crowns I’ve seen look like the photo, them and HSTs.
Reminds me of those Christmas chocolates.
The Mark 23 is sweet and the one in my safe is loaded with 45 super. That said, 460 Rowland is my preferred 45 chambering. G21 and FNX45.
You have a conversion kit for each I guess? Or did you get them custom made?
@@jeffroberts760 converted both of them.
Interesting video, thank you! It's of special interest to me because I picked up an HK 45C for my Daily Carry just a few months ago. I went with +P for it only because I was unsure if the gun was rated for Super
My "bedside" gun is a .460 Rowland conversion in major part because of your videos on that years ago. Rowland has recently started offering 240gr, which I haven't been able to get my hands on yet; but from a non-reloader perspective, it appears to be a .44 Mag projectile which SHOULD resist fragmenting better (as it should be designed from the start for higher velocities).
I also own a 45c. It's probably my favorite pistol of them all. I know the uspc 45 is rated for super but I'm not sure about the 45c. Both pistols are hammer forged cannon grade steel so the barrel will definitely handle it. There's a lot of good info on the HK forum about this so check it out. Lots of great info and some smart people on there to help. Hope this helps. Stay safe 👍
@@johndel1971able Thanks man, appreciate the input.
@@BattleshipSailorBB63 Anytime bud, glad to help 👍
Try the full size HK45. I had to get the HK45C first and then picked up the full size, I like it a little better. And yes, both the HK45 and HK45C can fire +p. It's in right in the manual. It does say it will cause wear faster. The HK Mark 23 is the only one recommended for 45 super, though.
@@MrSmith-zy2bp This. The Mark 23 is the only one you can shoot it right out of the box with no issues really. USP45 full size is generally regarded as G2G as well but a stiffer spring is recommended if you shoot a good amount of Super. The other 45s have handled it but it’s just not a good idea at all. Especially the compacts.
Thank you very much is demonstration was really good
Thanks for testing one of my carry ammo choices.
I don’t EDC a .45 but I do carry a full size M1911 for the special application of “sheepdog” duty at my synagogue, and that Remington HTP 185 grain is what’s on board. For standard pressure .45 ACP I would say 185 grain is the projectile weight of choice in a defensive round as it delivers higher velocity and significantly more energy on the target than standard pressure 230 grain.
The higher pressure stuff is neat, but would require a different gun, and is unnecessary for my purposes.
You're welcome 👍🏽
Something literally no one pays attention to with ballistic testing, is momentum numbers. I grabbed the velocities in your video and ran the numbers. Below is barrel length, load, stated velocity, momentum, and energy. Even with less velocity (and consequently, energy) on certain shots, the momentum number is higher.
3.9" barrel----------------------------------------------
185gr Rem: 1040 fps | 27.48 lb-ft/sec | 444 ft-lb
230gr Sig: 843 fps | 27.69 lb-ft/sec | 363 ft-lb
230gr Super: 1083 fps | 35.57 lb-ft/sec | 599 ft-lb
255gr Super: 1016 fps | 37.00 lb-ft/sec | 585 ft-lb
5.9" barrel----------------------------------------------
185gr Rem : 1150 fps | 30.38 lb-ft/sec | 543 ft-lb
230gr Sig: 893 fps | 29.33 lb-ft/sec | 407 ft-lb
230gr Super: 1165 fps | 38.27 lb-ft/sec | 693 ft-lb
255gr Super: 1137 fps | 41.41 lb-ft/sec | 732 ft-lb
In the woods of Vermont I carry an hk45 with underwood 45 hardcast flatnose. Thankfully haven't had a bad encounter with my local black bears in many years.
Enjoy the adventure. Thank You !!!
My own testing using the MK23 and the Underwood 230gr fragments, but it retains enough mass to penetrate around 16”…regardless of the clothing barrier. I wish Underwood would load the XTP as well. The 255gr hardcast performs well. I haven’t noticed much difference between it and 220gr 10mm, except the .45 is a slightly larger diameter….
I'd be curious to see what a 185gr Banes would do in a 45 Super load.
@@nospam3409 I am unaware of anyone loading it.
Underwood used to load the XTP in super, I bought a couple boxes many years back. When COVID hit I went to order more just to stock up as I saw the writing on the wall with the ammo shortage, but was dismayed to see they stopped making them! Not sure why, its a great woods round for most of the lower 48, and although I am not a handgun hunter I imagine it would be great for that application also. If reloading stuff ever comes back to normal I would eventually like to start making my own, maybe experiment with 250 gr .45 Colt XTPs. Underwood also used to load Gold Dots in super also! Maybe they found it underperformed due to over expansion, but seemed like a great round.
Do me a favor weight the 45 super rounds for me. Pre Covid are a lot hotter than post Covid.
IM LOOKING FOR A 1911 .380 + P COMMANDER SIZE PISTOL . NOT FOR HUNTING , JUST FOR DEFENSE . YOU DON'T NEED LARGE CALIBERS IF YOU KNOW WHERE TO AIM .
Thank you sir very good information from someone I trust thanks and take care buddy
In my experience, Remington HTP for semi autos are pretty lack luster with expansion. However, I actually have had pretty luck with semi jacketed hollow points for .357 mag. The only thing that I find interesting about HTPs is they have something with their powder that gives it a unique scent after firing. I have no idea what it is.
.45 ACP is one of those cartridges that people seem to want left alone.
.45 GAP was a noticeable improvement.
It could fit in smaller platforms, create more power despite being smaller, thanks to the increase in pressure.
Failed miserably anyway.
.45 Super stepped the power up even more, but it only exists on a very small level today.
Some of the "legacy" cartridges just seem to be so ingrained that people don't want them to be changed much.
Upon .45 GAPs debut, like one manufacturer loaded it to perhaps 20 fps faster; all other loadings were pretty much the same. Higher pressure but a smaller case = roughly the same velocities. (GAP only really had 185 and 200 gr bullets, anyway)
Yea
@@mdd1963 Only a few manufactures load 10mm anywhere near it's potential.
That dosen't mean it dosen't have that potential.
The case capacity for .45 ACP dosen't even matter since it can't use it anyway.
If you loaded a max pressure .45 GAP with a 230 grain bullet, it would be moving ~100 FPS faster than a max pressure .45 ACP 230 grain bullet.
The point is, when it comes to the old cartridges that we all already use, a large section of the market dosen't care about alternatives.
Any cartridge finding a permanent place in the market has to be something different.
Like 5.7x28.
Something that dosen't have a firmly established direct alternative.
@@pewpewTN WHen Hodgdon used to list .45 GAP reloading data *with 230 gr bullets* 15 years ago, it had a loading or two at 730 fps listed. Today, there are no 230 gr reloads listed at all...nor any factory ammo at all, much less at 230 grain. Yep , quite a winner.
@@pewpewTN Although the .45 ACP has more case capacity than needed...the GAP did not. (No room for powder when using 230 gr bullets, as evidence by zero handloading data at that bullet weight any more by Hodgdon/Winchester/IMR)
Solid breakdown.😉
Thanks for this. I learned something. Glad you differentiated between shooting humans vs dangerous animals. Using a hardcast flat or cutter projectile is whats needed for straightline penetration against dense animal hide and bone. Keep up the good work.
Did you happen to catch Joe Satriani latest album "elephants of Mars"? Pretty good stuff- thanks for the videos over the years. My first gun was my pops 1911 shot it when I was 8.
When you're talking about using a pistol or a round for personal defense, the amount of permanent wound cavity is the best indicator of how effective the cartridges. Just because it might be moving faster and it stops quicker but it produces a larger permanent wound cavity it will still be more effective. A prime example is the 9 mm 115 grain + p + law enforcement round maybe federal. That particular 9 mm cartridge, although it almost always fragments. It does not have a great amount of penetration. Has been within a couple points of 357 Magnum in first shot stop capability at is the closest contender in 9 mm. The second closest and possibly is better, is the 124 grain Underwood + p + firing the 124 grain hollow point 9 mm. However it's so much easier to just shoot a 38 Super or 9 x 23 or 357 Sig if you want to shoot a semi-auto. All three of those cartridges to make major power far easier than hopping up a 9 mm to a point where you're actually endangering yourself in some of the Firearms they are chambered in. Including a Glock. If you've ever seen the case that comes out of the Glock, you understand why they are ultimately reliable. Because they have a massive chamber. To the point I believe they are functionally dangerous. Reloading shells out of a Glock is not easy. Because of the stressors you have to put the shell casing under to get it back into shape. There is no reason to make a cavernous chamber to accomplish ultimate reliability. Probably why the 40 Smith and Glocks were blowing up here in Detroit. One because the Detroit police were stupidly trying to shoot lead bullets through them. Something that even Glock tells you not to do. But warm loads in 40 Smith we're disassembling those firearms on a regular basis. But that's what happens when you have a gun specifically designed for 9 mm and you chamber it in a considerably more powerful cartridge that is actually made to stop people. The 40 Smith in its original form, exactly copied the most capable cartridge of the late 1800s, which was a 3840 which was a 180 grain projectile at 1000 feet per second. The most popular cartridge of the old west. Was not the 45 Colt. It was the 3840. And the 40 Smith & Wesson exactly duplicate those ballistics. Those are quite good. I prefer the 155 265 grain hollow point in the 1200 ft per second range. Those will do 30% more permanent wood cavity that the best 9mmm all day long. The day that I asked the FBI. I've read their book that they wrote on the 9mmm. It is not what they profess it to be, they are lying to you. They went to the night mmmm because it's cheaper. It is cheaper to train these numbskulls that they are giving badges to. And it is cheaper to purchase ammo in bulk, they would get pretty much the same deal if they had ordered that much ammo in 40 Smith. But when I can give up two rounds of magazine capacity yet still deliver more energy to the Target and do more damage. I will take the more effective round every time. There is no reason to fire your gun so fast that you're firing it faster than your brain can react. And if you constantly have at least one if not two or three other officers around you if you get into a gunfight. You could carry 380 and be just as effective. When I'm on my own out there, in the real world, I need to be able to do as much practical damage with each and every shot as possible. And the 9 mmm, as much as I like the nine-millimeter. I own an Argentine military Browning hi-power which is the most accurate 9 mil I've ever seen in my life. It has a 4.7 inch barrel that gets every bit of velocity out of any round I put in it. I do carry it at times. But I carry it with more than ample ammo. Because I'm going to need it. But I usually carry a 40 Smith or 45 when I carry a semi-auto. And magazine capacity is secondary when you can change magazines in a couple of seconds. Mag dumps are worthless because shooting holes in their will not suffocate the perpetrator that you were trying to stop.
My stock Ruger Blackhawk Convertible shoots hot .45 Super handloads just fine - it is the perfect spot between .45 acp and ruger loaded Colt .45, which stings the palm of my hand.
Alaskan Ballistics channel have extensive reviews 45 super and 10 mm using really hot loads.
Good stuff, thank you
I almost converted a Glock 21 to .45 Super, but the ammo is too hard to find, so I just left it as .45 ACP & bought a Glock 20 for 10mm.
@@Peeter8 Yea, you can as long as the spring isn't too much for it.
I just didn't need a 50th caliber to keep ammo for, so after adding the 10mm, I put to bed the idea of getting a .45 Super conversion.
At least for the time being.
Always a possibility I will revist it in the future.
Smith & Wesson stated that their m&p 45 2.0 has a fully supported chamber and is +p rated..so it should be able to run the 45 super with maybe a recoil spring & guide rod change.
Did you try it yet?
I tried it in mine. Not good. Won't recommend full 45 super. I did a wolf recoil spring. It just made it unreliable. Needs 24lb for underwood. Won't run cheap 45acp anymore. 45acp needs 13-16lb spring. The barrel is thin and ramped too much for 45super, unsupported chamber. And the guns frame is too light. Stresses and flexes too much. M&P is a 9mm size style frame modified for 45acp. Not enough frame for 45 super. Feels like it will explode compared to my 1911 and USP. M&P 45 At your own risk, in my opinion
Great video!
How did that Underwood 255 grain function in your HK45C and your MK23??
I bought some several years back from Underwood , as well as a similar profile from Buffalo Bore. Both looked a little short in overall length, maybe slightly below spec but I didn't measure. Anyway, both would frequently nose dive into the feed ramp and choke up both my HK45C as well as my fullsize USPt. They are the only rounds to ever cause any issues in either platform, which was a shame I was really hoping to use them for woods carry but they just were not reliable for me. I ended up using Underwood 230 XTPs at 1100fps (which sadly I do not think they offer any more), which is probably more ideal in my neck of the woods anyway since there aren't any brown bear or anything like that.
In any case .45 super is the best kept secret. My stock USP could seamlessly run anything from mouse fart .45 target loads to .45 super and back again without a hiccup. It allows for a huge range of applications with a single pistol; target shooting, urban self defense, woods self defense, hunting, and its really fun to shoot.
I went looking for more info and realized 45 Super isn't listed in my reloading manual. What the heck, Hornady?
As Paul would say it doesn't make enough of a difference to actually make a difference. Esp considering cost and availability.
id love to see how the screw driver rounds do in 45 super from underwood. thats what i use
screwdriver tip rounds are pure horseshit.
@@mdd1963 They really aren’t tho… As a woods round they’re fantastic for everything except maybe Grizzlies. Even those have been taken down with Xtreme penetrators in Alaska. They penetrate deep (maybe not as much as heavy HC but still deep) and do more than just poke a hole in the animal. What’s not to like? As a HD/CCW round the defenders seem promising but I’ll stick with hollow points for now until I can test them my self.
@@mdd1963 what? haha... no they arent. they are incredible.
buy some and do testing or if youre lazy, go to paul harrell's youtube and look at his tests of them. they perform better than hallow points.
@@maximusjoseppi5904 Better at what? Expansion?
@@mdd1963 what?...
I don't have a USP in 45 but I've always wanted one. I do own a USP in 40 that I converted to 10mm so I don't doubt that they are safe for 45 super. I've got a conversation barrel for 460 Rowland for my 1911. It's a hoot to shoot.
So I may have missed it but did you test any 45 +p hard cast bullets or just the 45 super hard cast? I would like to know how deep a regular 45 or 45+p would penetrate compared to the 45 super.
I love 45acp its America's 🇺🇸 caliber 👍🏻👍🏻
ua-cam.com/video/YbRnkmkOhsk/v-deo.html
Off topic but too bad you missed the first ever Sig Freedom Days in Phoenix Az this last weekend. It was awesome.
Awesome video
If clear synth gel overepesents about +25% penetration compared to brown organic gel, then to get the FBI recommended minimum of 12 in brown, we should look for at least 15-16 in clear. All of the shots that got 9 to 14 in clear would likely fail to reach vitals in a real bad guy.
i mean if you believe that lol
people have shot basic .380s straight through to the spine of hogs, chest shots
i think people are overly worried about penetration
Great Video. It's crazy to me how in the comments people think 45super is a one way conversion when obviously it is not. I been shooting 45super from my Glock 30S for a while now. Seems the hollow points made for 45acp are too fragile for supers. The hardcasts are my favorite, but recoil so hard. Now I been stocking up on the Xtreme Defenders in 45super, which recoil much less. Pass on the Xtreme Penetrators, I would only use the hardcasts for huge animals. I'm sure the 135gr Xtreme Defenders at 1500fps are enough for cougar, wolf, black bear, as well as humans without all the added recoil. All is needed in the G30S is a 20lbs recoil spring. Now I use a KKM threaded barrel and sometimes a compensator. Underwood 45super ammo is fairly priced and usually less than 45acp or +P defensive ammo.
I have a Glock 30 Gen 3 with a Lone Wolf barrel and Galloway ss guide rod assembly. I can't remember if I ordered the 17 lb or the 20 spring. Would 17 lbs be enough for the. 45 Super?
@@gregorymckoy3179 I recommend the 20lbs. My first 45super trial was with the factory barrel and a 20lbs Galloway SS RSA. Your G30 mags should be fine, but G21 mags might be too weak to properly cycle. I worry about early unlocking with a 17lbs as my G30S lighter slide will have small indications of this even with +p ammo. I found that both Galloway and CDS SS RSA locking pressure (the amount of force right before the Glock goes into battery) is less than the factory RSA, but like I said, the 20lbs seemed to work correctly enough. It's best to always test your Glock with your defense ammo in your carry mag.
Start by firing 1 round and examine the case primer. Compare it to other .45auto ammo you fire. Check for odd strikes, smearing, and over pressures. Unlikely to happen, but I dont know your gun. Best to stay safe. They have not bitten me in any way.
@@alexskillz45 thanks for the reply. I will see if I can find my receipt from when I purchased it. I have a heavier striker spring in it, stronger extractor spring and the Ghost Rocket trigger connector. It shoots all the ammo I have thrown at it including +P without cycling problems.
@@alexskillz45 I found my original package for the guide rod and recoil spring assembly. I have the 20 lb spring. Do I need anything else besides the fully supported barrel chamber for .45 Super? I'm not going to be using it on a regular basis anyway just wanted other options. Thanks again!
@@gregorymckoy3179 At the minimum you need the 20lbs RSA. The Glock barrel will handle JHP just fine. Also I made the move to Xtreme Defenders and penetraters, they have less recoil and are safe in the Glock barrel. I have not tried the 255gr hardcast from the factory barrel, I think it is borderline safe. With your LW barrel, you need not worry about what ammo to use, I just hope you find a holster. I use an R&R IWB with TLR7a, I'm sure I could have asked them to make it opened end, but forgot, I just cut the barrel end off and all is good. I have a KKM Threaded Barrel 4.5". The Glock Polygonal 3.77" Barrel will match the velocities from a 4.5" Aftermarket barrel, so if you have a 3.77" aftermaket barrel you will be not getting rated velocities.
The stronger firing pin spring is not necessary, but I recommend it. I am using a Ghost Trigger Kit with the 6lbs FPS and a Ghost Avenger 3.5lbs connector, breaking right below 5lbs on the trigger. There is a less pronounced wall, but the trigger feels great.
You should be able to run 230gr range ammo reliably, all the way up to 255gr 45super.
Underwood is not a Wadcuttter
It’s a 255gr Hardcast 18 BHN Tek Coated RNFN
Only the 450 SMC in 255gr is a Wadcuttter
Those 45 ACP bullets for 45 Super is not recommended. Suggest the 240 and 250gr XTP bullets for jacketed in 45 Super. Here in Alaska 250/255 Hardcast at 22 BHN works excellent with 8.5 of PP for 1065 fps in KKM 4.6” G21 and 8.8 PP with 255gr SWC Keith at 1100 fps.
Thank you
Basically the original military spec .45 Colt load, which was 255gr @ 1050 and was designed to down cavalry horses.