My mate is a Master Carpenter and Joiner. If I ask him to make ME something he will charge me mates rate at what he knows I can easily afford. When he makes something for a Millionaire et al he charges hundreds of times more. Reason being, if he charged the price he charged me they would think it wasn't top quality, so he charges a higher price and the Millionaire believes they are getting a superior quality item ! Substitute this for watches and ....well you get the idea !
Hi Proipp. The same thing happens in the watch business, but since the Master Watchmaker (who may never have touched a watch he designed), rarely can the watchmaker give his pals a discount. Instead, the Authorized Dealer (AD) can arrange a discount for his friends/family. However, the millionaires, instead of having to pay relative to their wealth, usually get the best discounts! Over time, the millionaire is going to buy more watches than the average Joe; there are more average Joes than there are millionaires who can afford expensive luxury watches; so to attract and keep their business, the millionaire gets a better deal than you or I. In the work I used to do with computers, sometimes I'd need help from a friend who was a designer. I'd need something like a logo or other design, and she could whip it up in a minute (I couldn't do it in an eternity...) Then she'd need help with a program, and I'd do the programming for her. (I imagine you have a similar arrangement with your mate the Master Carpenter.) Great to hear from you and welcome! Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci good video I was surprised to see that the $800 Hamilton has the same movement as a $4000 breitling thanks for the video I subscribed!!! :) 😎👍
@@kingadjust5422 Wouldn't it be nice if Breitling, IWC, Cartier and all the rest that use ETA and Sellita movements be candid with us about their base movements? Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Bill, thanks for this great video. Collectors like me are eternally grateful for people like you who can enlighten us to the subtleties of watch manufacture and design. One would be forgiven if they questioned the value proposition with brands like Richard Mille and Hublot.
Hi MrRea! I'm very happy you liked it. The trick with Richard Mille is to get around the appearance and really find the Richard Mille genius as a watchmaker, and it's generally there, even with a Vaucher base (which in itself is a brilliant movement). As for Hublot, don't hold too many preconceptions about them because you can find some great Hublots. For me, most Hublots and RM watches just aren't my cup of tea. However, the ones I like are very likable! Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci Wise counsel indeed, Bill. I’m on the same page as you with Richard Mille. His styles are just a little too “out there” for me. As for Hublot, why risk it when there are wonderful brands like JLC and Tudor that offer such value for excellence coupled with lovely designs? Granted, some Hublots can be achingly beautiful. I must be getting old and conservative!
IWC Portuguese Chronograph used to be my dream watch when I did not know about watches. But after watching these informative videos enlightened me and I know there are many other watches in that price range. If I am not going to be rich enough own a rolls, then IWC is never going to be in my collection. I don’t have that kind of money to burn! Bill, thanks for reviwing a Nomos world timer! The video helped me get a used one!
Hi shnam13, I agree about the IWC Portuguese Chronograph. It turned out to be a bit of a hollow ring even though they are highly regarded. (At one time I think IWC had their own movement in them and may still, but you never know.) As for the Nomos World Timers, congratulations man!! Cheers, Bill
I'm exactly in the same situation. My dream watch (the IWC Portuguese) was a con to me, now I own a Rolex. What I like with Rolex in that it is fully in-house, no artificial features. Simple and robust.
Bill, among those I've watched, this is your most informative video yet. Thanks for your contribution to making watches as a hobby a more informed one!
My pleasure Gilberto. I think some watch companies are getting the message as they are becoming more transparent ... even though they'd rather not be! Cheers, Bill
Excellent video Bill as usual. Researching before buying a watch is the difference between a watch enthusiast or collector and a fashion follower being this last the majority of people. Cheers!!
Hey Akula, that's a great way of expressing the it. One of the other subscribers quoted Napoleon: "time spent on reconnaissance is seldom wasted..." Cheers, Bill
I'm the same. You pay a fortune for a watch and you get... yup, an ETA like everyone else's watches. Btw, I'm a fellow Seiko fan and am saving for a quartz Grand Seiko.
Hey Otto, better late than never, as the saying goes. Welcome! Thank you for you nice compliments. Watch collectors should look out for one another! Kindest regards, Bill
Just discovered your channel and am loving the insight..thank you. This cloak and dagger stuff isnt just in the watch market..its endemic across consumer manufacturing. With regard to your point about Breitling / Tudor movement...the reason Breitling won't say its a Tudor movement is because it weakens the brand and there's a risk that potential customers will just go and buy a Tudor instead. Hardly any (read none) of the videos on watches discuss branding and yet it is the most important aspect of the market. The profit margins between cost of manufacture and retail price are huge and these prices are propped up largely on image and perception. The other thing they do of course, and Rolex are focussing heavily on this currently, is adding $400 of gold and charging $4,000 more....It seems a tweaked ETA movement and $400 worth of gold adds about $7,000 to the value of a watch.
Yes, Richard, skullduggery is not the owned child of the watch business and like a smart shopper, we need to dig deep into what's under the hood and behind the curtains. Welcome to Watch ArtSci! Take care, Bill
Bill, great topic and great video. I will throw one more out there regarding Breitling and Tudor. The caliber in the Tudor Heritage Black Bay Chrono that won the 2017 GPHG Petite Aiguille is based on the Breitling B01. And guys, do not get me wrong. That Tudor is a great watch. Just adding something to the discussion. Have a great weekend!
Emillio, it's even crazier! The collaboration looks like the Tudor MT5612 movement is based somehow on the B01, and then the B20 is based on the Tudor MT5612. Actually, the B01 exists in part because of Tudor and the MT5612 is based on the B01 and the B20 ... why not just a direct based on the B20 on the B01?! This article (sort of) explains it all: monochrome-watches.com/tudor-breitling-alliance-movements-exchange-opinion/. And Emillio, thank you for that further insight! Cheers, Bill
Bill, I have had someone explain a plus side of having an ETA or similar (non Manufacturer movement), which is that the service cost would be lower and more importantly, it can be serviced in other watch shops, not just at the Manufacturer's Service Center. Would appreciate your comments based on your experience.
Binoy, that is true. Watch repair shops love ETA movements, especially since they can get parts and they're familiar with them. Rolex makes life difficult for non-Rolex service centers; so the average Joe watch repair rejoice when an ETA comes in. The designs are generally simpler too. Kindest regards, Bill
Thank you Bill. Do you have any instance you can recollect where you had serviced an ETA movement vs an in-house movement and what was your experience, including the cost of service itself.
Binoy, not all in-house services are the same. My FP Journe Chronomètre à Résonance is the most expensive (around $2k) and my least was a stuck Peseux 7001 (now ETA 7001) for $30; so it depends. I have a Raymond Weil over 20 years old with an ETA 2892-2 that has never been serviced and it still runs fine-not greatly accurate, but it never was. Kindest regards, Bill
Hello Bill, the one thing I will say about IWC is that they upgrade several components on the SW300 movement. For instance, they use ceramic ball bearings for the rotor. It would be good if they clearly state both the base movement and the extent of their modifications.
Price diff in ETA quality tiers is not just due to the positions adjusted to but due to the upgraded components within the movement, for example Etachoc vs Incabloc for shock protection and ordinary nickel vs Glucydur balance wheels.
Top video Bill! You are the best watch channel on youtube. I learn always something new every time in your videos. It's like a tuition in watches. kind regards Andi
Brilliant lecture. Fascinating. Any thoughts on Junghans Meister Chronometer and the COSC Baume et Mercier Baumatic 5 days Chronometer. I’d love to buy both but funds allow only one. Watch movements I believe many brands have had us over .......at some point.
Hi Michael, I don't think it's bias-I consider it clear thinking. I'm good with an ETA (or Sellita, or Soprod) in a that fits the case and the seller tells me about. Thomas Ninchritz seems to be able to do it with aplomb. www.uhrenmanufaktur-nuernberg.de Cheers, Bill
Very informative video. Very educational! Thanks for posting. Is it true that some brands just take an ETA movement and decorate it a little and then give it an ‘in house’ movement # and market it as such?
Hi Timemachine, thanks, man. I really don't know that much about either brand, but one of the collections I reviewed had some very interesting Invictas. Thanks for the information and there's more for me to learn about. Kindest regards, Bill
That's why i dont buy those watches with case back instead of glass back. Most of the time those case back watches use common unpolished raw movement. Those who dare to use glass back are at least proud of the movements inside, whether in-house-made or off the shelf.
Hey Kok, same here. Not only do I like to see what's ticking in my watch and what I paid for; I just like to look at a beautiful movement.The only exception are the ultra thin watches ... exhibition windows add thickness. The one 'extra plate' watch I have has a solid gold case-back hides a Peseux 7001....an extra thin movement now owned by ... who else? ... ETA. Cheers, Bill
@@watchartsci u can get ultra thin JLC, the movement is awesome, value for money compared to IWC watches. (Actually there's no comparison at all). The other reason I only buy modern era watch with glass watch is to be able to authenticate the watch before part my hard earned money from my account. I owned 2 Jaquet Droz n 5 Glashutte Original, althou they cant compare to PP or Lange, I found them really really well built n the movements are real true beauties. They dont hide what's inside their watches coz they r proud of them.
The's one other thing though- how well the movement is cased and regulated has more to do with accurate timekeeping than the movement itself, and hopefully if you are buying an expensive luxury watch your'e getting this additional attention to detail. Example: Think of all the cars that use the Ford Ecotec engine. You've got commuter cars, sports cars, varying power outputs- because they use the same base engine does not make them identical or the more expensive one or a bad value. Watches are the sum of a lot of factors besides simply the movement that was installed in it.
Great analysis ! Some of the reputable watch companies use generic movements and sell them at high price and attempt to mask the actual movement with Calibre XYZ therefore most consumer will be paying for their design or looks. For model like tudor black bay are using their in-house movement with accuracy standard of Chronometer which makes them value of money as compare to those who use generic ones and charged at much higher price range.
Hi Tan Ray! Thanks man! An old Black Bay Tudor with a COSC rated ETA is often a great deal. You can easily find them in Condition 0 (brand new) for under $2k. A Heritage Black Bay with a Tudor Calibre MT5602 movement will cost about $1,000 more. Either way, Tudors are good buys for a sports watch. Cheers, Bill
Great video Bill if it wasn't for you I'd never have known as much as I do now . With my budget it's pretty much Seiko Hamelton and Microbrand watches . But it's nice having the knowledge about different movements.
There are always good buys ... just knowing what they are can get you what you want but cannot afford, Junior. The great bulk of my collection is founded on that. Many of the watches I have could not afford now! Take care, Bill
Hi J Lo. I'd be happy is they just told me what the base is and modifications, if any. This kind of confusion should make Rolex collectors happy. Cheers, Bill
Have you ever done a video on the Chinese ETA crisis? I saw where the Chinese copy was outperforming the original and they showed part by part is almost identical. Also, I'd be interested in your take on Grand Seiko and Shanghai where they have a tourbillon movement. Do these watches meet the standard of high horology?
Hi Andrew, the only video dedicated to Chinese horology was a video I did on an outstanding collection from China: ua-cam.com/video/3L9hOGcJxJ0/v-deo.html That may have some answers for you. Kindest regards, Bill
Fantastic video, appreciate the knowledge you share. My daily is a Seiko Flightmaster Sna411p1 and, when I wanted my first mechanical watch, I ended up with an SAS Air "first edition". The CAD dollar was strong, the value was there, and I absolutely fell in love with it. Really enjoy watching your videos and learning more about watches as I fall deeper in the rabbit hole of watch collecting. Cheers
Hi Bill! I took a punt and bought a watch from an auction. It was listed as made by a watchmaker and is a one off, unfortunately the guy has now passed away. The dial face has the mans name on it Mussard who's family emigrated to England back in the 17c from Geneve. The family has a watch shop near Swansea in Wales. The reverse of the watch has a glass back and on the rotor it has the mans name Mussard and 1026. Do you think the 1026 is the movement? Great video's, very interesting.
Hi Eamonn, a Mussard automatic chronograph? Daniel Mussard may have done the automatic, but chronographs in watches were not available until the early 19th Century, and automatic chronographs weren't available until around 1969. It was not uncommon for watch companies to put their name of the watches that they sold, and the Mussard Watch company in Swansea may have put their name on the watch in some post-1969 period. My hunch is that the watch may be a combination of watches without a name and Mussard stamped their name on it. The '1026' would more likely be a part number than a movement number. These are all guesses, though.You can email me a picture of the watch if you'd like. (See ua-cam.com/video/uVqCTuA-naw/v-deo.html for contact information) In any event, it sounds like a very interesting watch you have. Kindest regards, Bill
This video is exactly what I love about watch collecting. Finding out exactly what caliber you're getting for your money. I fully agree that buying a watch for double sometimes quadruple (or more) the price because it has a nicer case or they made the same base movement from a different material can be attributed to marketing hype. But it's also the stock these people place in the brand too. Which is why Rolex is considered one of the best watch makers in the world when I would call them objectively mediocre at best.
We all know that the luxury watch business floats on a sea of hyperbole, and the trick is to find the diamonds in the coal mines of horology. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci Correct. There is a lot of hyperbole in the world of mechanical watches. I think it was probably the Nautilus that spawned the concept that a mechanical wrist watch made of stainless steel could be worth more than it's exact equivalent in gold or even platinum. It was at this point also that many watch companies realized that what the watch cost to make, would no longer be a factor in how much they should charge for the watch.
@@JamesVincex I think you're exactly right. The more spent on marketing the more valuable the perceived value of the watch. Gold and platinum raise the price way more than the noble metals cost to obtain and forge, which themselves are hyped beyond any intrinsic value....but that's been the watch business model for at least the last 50 years. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Great video. Can you spend some more time talking about what separates the movements in terms of complications and reliable older movements still in use? Thank you.
Hi Jay, the funny thing is that some of the ETAs might even be superior to some of the in-house movements cheaply made. What's ranking is the deception ... but your point's a good one and will see what I can do. Take care, Bill
My Navitimer was the same. Breitling insist on calling the calibre a _Breitling 23_ when it was in fact an _ETA Valjoux 7753_ , though this was fairly widely known. It does get very tricky with the more obscure brands to research what the base movements actually are.
Hi Meson1. They go to great lengths and spend a lot on marketing. Maybe if they shifted a little from marketing to development, they wouldn't have to hide their ETA. (The Valjoux 7753 isn't a terrible movement, by the way-they just think that a B-23 movement allows them to charge more.) Cheers, Bill
I have nothing against ETA movements. They are all solid and reliable, the Valjoux 7750 being amongst the most respected of those. I don't have anything against Sellita either. For many years, Sellita manufactured ebauches for ETA under contract. They had the tooling and expertise, so when the Swatch Group decided to restrict supply, Sellita saw an opportunity and started making clones of ETA movements whose protections had expired. Sellita, unjustifiably are viewed as inferior to ETA which I don't think is really the case. I do not see the harm in watch makers declaring the base movements of the calibres they offer in the product specifications. Instead of 'dragging down' the brand, it ought to elevate the respect for the movement. But I guess the world just doesn't work that way.
Meson1, I agree...mostly. At one time, there were a lot of Sellita movements that were off a fraction which caused problems. It had to do with certain calibrations that were not up to standards. However, from what I understand, you're right about ETA being brought out in a positive way. Valjoux, Peseux, Lemania, Unitas and ETA itself used to be considered pre-quartz movement. A Lemania movement was inside the Omega moon watch. The centralization of the movements under the ETA banner led to more efficient and cheaper production, and often the bottom standard level ETA (2 positions of adjustment) is used to characterize all movements under the ETA umbrella. Cheers, Bill
I had the same problem with Laco Fliegers that have $35 Japanese movements in them that they sell for $500+. Is it really worth $350 more than an Orient flieger?
Fabulously informative article. It also reinforces my respect for frequently despised brands like Seiko. I own a Seiko SARB033, which has an in-house movement (6R15C) which keeps excellent time (a couple of seconds per day loss) which, while not particularly pretty, is a bargain at less than £300.00. The case also exhibits a level of finishing that puts many very expensive brands to shame.
Another good one Bill with good advice. You are much more forgiving in your language about this deception than I am. Which would not be suitable for your channel. The Breitling and Pelagos are about the same retail price. But why not just say It is a Tudor movement. Change the hair spring, and the rotor, add some decorations and all of a sudden it is Breitling manufactured? I always assume Hamilton is going to be an ETA. And that Breitling Navitimer compared to the Hamilton is a good example of how to get burned. The Cartier examples leads me to think if you are willing to do this, what else are you willing to do? Nothing wrong with ETA but it will dictate how much money I am willing to put out.
Dallas, I think that you put it as succinctly as possible. There's nothing wrong with an ETA movement; so just tell the buyer what he's getting. If it's an ETA, it's worth less; not because of a problem with ETA, but it is mass produced and so less valuable by a movement manufactured by the brand. (This could be an irony, because indeed a watch company could make a movement inferior to any number of movements under the ETA umbrella.) The watch companies scream bloody murder about fake watches with their brand name; so set a good example by not implying something genuine high horology when it is not. Cheers, Bill
Bill, Love the Freudian Slip at 12:31, I also bought the Hermes you did a show on awhile back, pictured here to, and although the movement is Vaucher I'm hoping it won't cost the arm or leg to have it serviced, and what's your opinion, how many watchmaker's will touch it just because it is a Vaucher? I had my Seiko Spring Drive serviced, I was told to send it to New York and it would be taken care of. Seiko sent me a letter saying all Spring Drive watches are sent to Japan for servicing, although the price Seiko stated for the work did not change I had to wait two weeks more, I hope not too many hoops are involved when servicing the Hermes, Vaucher movement. JIM
Hi Jim, as Homer S. would say... d'oh! Have you sent in the Hermes for service yet? The ones with the Vaucher movement are relatively new (about 5 years old or so....). Would very much like to hear how the service works out. My two FPJs took about 3 months each...great service, though. They now have a service center in Miami, which is nice. Cheers, Bill ... and don't forget to let us know how the service went!
Great video! One of my favorites from you. You really do intense research in the field. I think I know about watches, but I always learn something with your videos. Thank's! I have a question: is 1904MC a really in-house movement from Cartier? Because I see that Vacheron Constantin and Piaget uses it also. Is it Piaget and Cartier uses it or was it Cartier the inventor?
Hi Lee, thanks man! Go to about 11:30 on this video (...or the beginning to get the context): ua-cam.com/video/3bqojJ7Cjw4/v-deo.html --Let me know if that answers your question. Kindest regards, Bill
Agreed they base of the watch isn't always mentioned but then again this only means that they use the drive train that is used in those movements, but never forget that companies like IWC regulate and handfinish these movements. this has to be taken into account.
Hi Cedric, all good points. Given that state of affairs, it would be simple to state that the base of their x-caliber is an ETA xxx or Sellita xxx. Why don't they do that? They have different pricing for IWC-manufactured movements, which indicates they're worth more. Watch enthusiasts and collectors should not be deceived in any way, and several watch companies indicate clearly their movement bases. There's no reason IWC, Cartier and Panerai (among others) cannot do the same thing. Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci This is why I personnally believe that in most cases an in house movement isn't worthy of the cost (the cost is simply high because they spend a ton of money on the development of a new drivetrain.) For example habring has shown us the greatest of things coming from sellita or ETA bases. They don't mention it simply because the customer has to have a great understanding of why it uses the ETA base, never forget that there is a population a lot less savy on watches and particularly movements who would not understand that the ETA in an IWC is nowhere near comparison of just a top grade ETA (standard delivery from ETA)
of course on watches like your moser, the FP journe, and lots of other independants the more cost of the in house, casefitting movement is worthy of the extra cost
Hi Cedric, Habring2 at one time did use ETA bases in their watches. In 2011they developed their own base movement called the A11, and introduced it in the Felix. Since then, they have sold out the bulk of their old stock (what little there was) with ETA-based watches and replaced them with the A11 used in the Felix. Now their watches are A11-based, including the new Doppel Felix that just won another Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève prize. It is a mistake to suggest that Habring2 watches are ETA-based now even though they were at one time. Significantly, when Habring2 did use ETA-based movements, they told their customers exactly which ETA movement was used in each and every watch they used them in. The reason that the 'million-plus dollar' figure is thrown around for developing a new movement is because a big watch company may put a team of watchmakers to work on a single movement-watchmakers, designers and production engineers (not to mention accountants, lawyers and administrators). Their combined salaries can easily add up to a million in a short period of time; hence, the "million dollars development'" figure. Richard Habring, Philippe Defour, F.P. Journe, Michel Parmigiani, Marco Lang, Kari Voutilainen, Roger Smith, and Jean-Marc Wiederrecht (among others) are usually doing the design and development themselves; so, they don't have the $million development costs, and they're usually brilliant watchmakers ... far more so than the salaried watchmakers working in clusters under company policies and their limitations. --All that companies like IWC need to do to is to clearly state that 1) They use ETA ébauches in the watches that use them, and 2) They add value to the ETA parts by doing X-Y-Z, making them. Otherwise, they are practicing a form of deception and watch collectors who pay thousands of dollars for their watches should know that. Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci True but what I meant was that there is nothing wrong with not mentioning it, simply because the 'normal' client of IWC is not an expert and there is just way more chance that they won't understand what happens to these movements (+they simply don't care) . For those of us who really are into watches (and more so those of us who are into movements) this does indeed feel like deception. Personally I like that they use ETA's in them, it makes the service cost for a just graduaded student way more approachable than an FP journe or a moser, or even a VC historique which I know you have and I'm not ashamed to say I like A LOT.
I saw a 2 thousand dollar watch that two other people used the one cost 8 thousand more then that 2 Grand watch , then that Richard Mille used the same movement, he just made it out of some weird metal but it’s the same movement! And as you can imagine! He was selling it for 200 Grand more than the first watch sold for 2 thousand?
My assumption on all of these is that the watch maker is buying a base movement, and then performing a boat load of polishing and tuning, possibly shaping, to the various parts. Are you saying that they are simply buying these movements direct from ETA, putting them in cases of varying quality, and charging the markup for a named case?
Unfortunately, Robert, yes. There is often elaborate engraving on the rotor and re-naming the movement, but it's not much more. The link to the following watchmaker is the opposite of what concealers do: www.lang-und-heyne.de/en/manufacture/creation/ Kindest regards, Bill
The guy that makes those watches out of weird materials, Miller maybe? He sold one of his watches with the same movement that another watch sold for a little over 2 grand, Miller sold his for about 60 or 70 thousand more , of course he put weird metals in it , but it was the same exact movement as the 2 Grand watch , how are you Doing Bill ? I hope life is treating you good , I’m still hanging in here , not sure if I told you , but I have Esophageal Cancer , I went for two checkups a month Pryor to me almost internally bleeding to death , just about a week or so after they told me I had no problems! Turns out after they really checked me out , I not only had Esophageal Cancer but I also had lung liver and brain cancer ! Again I’m hanging in there , love your watch collection Bill , my Brother bought me a Seiko prospex great white shark diver watch , I like it a lot keeps pretty good time , and water proof to 650 feet , has a blue dial with waves , again God Bless Bill ,
Hi Pat, yes, I understand you've been very ill. Rest easy if you can and find something you'll be able to enjoy. That's about all any of us can do. Your Seiko Prospex Great White won the "Diver Watch Prize" at the 2019 Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève! Your brother really picked a winner for you! Kindest regards, Bill
Very good topic. It seems to me these brands are biting the hand that feeds... we are WIS, we know and care about the movements in our timepieces. There brands are acting like we are the ignorant majority where they think we will be satisfied just because it says "mechanical movement". The industry will die within a 100 years if there is not more transparency. Rant over. Thank you.
Hi FM, I hope they quit acting like they'll go out of business if they tell the truth. They may have more difficulty if they keep putting cheap movements in watches and charging prices far beyond the horological value. Unfortunately, as H. L. Mencken said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public..." Little by little the watch companies seem to be coming around. We'll see. Cheers, Bill
The pre Richemont era watches produced up until the end of the last century means you can buy an IWC with either JLC mechanical or mechaquartz movements; for less than $4500.
Thanks for that information James. It'd be so much easier if they all just stated clearly and fully the base of the movements and any enhancements they did. As collectors who pay a lot of money for these watches there's no reason we should accept anything less; but too often we do. Cheers, Bill
Hey Rafael, it's hard to know. When Habring2 was using Valjoux movements, they'd brag about the fact and do things with it that showed the highest level of watchmaking skill. Once the A11x came along, all of the new models had some version of the A11 that was first introduced in the Felix A11B. Would that be so hard? Cheers, Bill
You're right, I'm just saying putting armor glass into a watch and steel string do not add to horology a G-shock could give the same result, and RM is not a watchmaker he is a marketing person and that's where he is really good at. obviously I'm not a fan of those pieces. But I get your point, anyhow great video cheers!!
Hi Bill u put in a lot of effort to educate us, itching to buy another watch soon, if u have time please look at the heritage auction site they have a watch auction may 29 or so, does any watch receive 5 stars from you? there are a couples of Pateks that look nice appreciate your thoughts thanks
Eddie, you can probably expect a 25% fee on your top bid. So a winning bid of $5,000 is going to cost you $6,250. As for 5 stars, nothing caught my eye, but you have to give me a bidding ceiling. They have $200,000 + at the top. Also, tell me a minimum case size. Some of the watches from the 60s are very small by today's standards.
Hi Alton, thanks man! Here's one that provides a lot of context for why Switzerland became a center for watchmaking: ua-cam.com/video/J6X0yu5wTes/v-deo.html Cheers, Bill
I have very low regard for IWC. They sale watches with ETA or Sellita movements at costs of in-house and their own, recent, movement, is giving lots of problems, with sludge. In fact, their in-house movement is not better at all than the ETA... Paradoxical.
Hi Lee, let me clarify something: I have nothing against ETA or Sellita. Both are inexpensive and fairly robust movements. What I don't like is not knowing that my watch (IWC ... among the usual suspects) has an ETA or other bargain brand movement for a watch that touts itself as "high horology" and has prices that reflect a movement with more than an off-the-shelf movement that sells for about $100. Currently I am finishing up a watch that I put together myself: I bought a German enamel dial for $50; a Chinese clone of the ETA/Unitas 6497 for $30; and a steel case with a sapphire glass on the front and back for about $40. That's a total of $120 for the watch. I modified the movement by clipping the post off the fourth wheel (aka 'seconds wheel') One more thing...I got sterling silver leaf hands for $12...so that's $132-sans band or bracelet. So I have a pretty nice watch for $132 (my only one with an enamel dial). For my second watch, I got an actual ETA /Unitas 6498 ($75), a brass-plated steel case ($40) with sapphire glass front and back and a dial with blued hands ($24)--roughly $150. They do not include the bands, but they'll be between about $20-$50 depending on what I get. If I get the truth from a company about their movement, I can make an informed decision; otherwise I get a pig in poke. Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci Absolutely, I get you. And I really find it is incomprehensible that IWC pretend to compete against Omega and cannot put together a decent in-house movement. You should do a video on your construction of watches and buying of parts to assemble them. Very interesting!
Excellent video Bill. The World of watch collecting is unfortunately all about smoke and mirrors and snake oil salesman, or should that be salespeople. There are many rumours about Chinese parts appearing in Swiss made watches and it will be interesting if proven. Maybe I missed it. At least I know my entry level watches are what the Manufacturers tell me they are. Decorating a basic ETA movement does not make it keep better time or wear more slowly. What’s the old saying? “Can’t make a silk purse from a sows ear”. My most expensive watch is a Tissot. I feel better already.
Hi Bill, just put an offer on the brown Moser Just messing with you🤥🤥🤥 On serious note your options on the Lange 1815 up down, I own 1 Lange which is beautiful simple 3 handed, 39 mm, I was looking at 39 mm with reserve meter, and seconds, situated right and left, 39mm. Visiting London in May to meet my sister and finally get to physically see a few watches, I will definitely try the JLC, need to put on the wrist given the rectangular shape, have a soft corner for JLC given very rich history etc, especially the 28 x 43 ones. Will keep u informed, thanks again
This is the exact point I was making yesterday on another one of your videos and you said I was thinking too much. Is it worth paying two or three times as much for a "brand name" watch like a Sea-gull instead of another clone watch that has the same movement? Is Sea-gull even a brand name that merits adding 200% or 300%? Do/should watch cases and dials from some manufacturers make that big an impact on the price?
Sorry TimBee if I blew off a good point you made. The cases I got from Germany were about 10x the cost of the ones from China-they were better quality, but I've had good luck with China cases if I get a good match with the movement, dial and hands. Take care, Bill
When did eta become a dirty word in the industry? Not so long ago it was a selling point. Did the snobbery start when Swatch Group announced to stop selling eta movements? Now the whole in-house craze has taken over. The marketing departments sell hot air and collectors seem to go along with it.
Sjaak De Vries it's not that ETA has become a dirty word, that's not the point. Here we have companies charging customers three or four times the price of their "cheaper" competitors, but they in fact use the same movement. As if that wasn't bad enough, they openly lie about the inclusion of those shared movements by giving them contrived names. A Ford Fiesta engine isn't a bad engine, especially if you buy it in a Ford Fiesta, however, the levels of satisfaction would shift significantly, if you bought a Ferrari and found out that the Ferrari named engine was more or less the Ford Fiesta engine. Why should I pay $4K for an IWC, when I can buy a Tissot with the same beating heart for 50% cheaper? So, what are you paying for in the end? The brand name? A little additional decoration?......
I understand but I'm pretty sure brands didn't hide this information 10/15 years ago. They proudly said it was eta or valjoux, even engraved it on the caseback. Now you see brands calling it their own caliber. Do they feel pressure to pretend everything is in-house? I even hear the community say Sellita is garbage but they used to be the subcontractor for eta making their movements. I think Swatch Group did good by restricting eta movements to make the industry more creative but the "in-house" hype is becoming a bit nutty.
It is all good as long as the labeling is truthful and honest. Products that are sold or traded need the transparency of being what the seller/trader pronounce it to be...
Hi Cedric, I'm a sucker for both the co-axial escapement and the Deville Omega style. However, the Deville small seconds has an ETA 2892-A2 based in the Omega 2202 movement. So, knowing that, if you're ok with the George Daniels escapement in an ETA and the price is right, it sounds ok. Here's the one I was looking at: www.omegawatches.com/watch-omega-de-ville-prestige-co-axial-small-seconds-39-mm-46138002 but since they don't make that any more, you have to carefully search on the used market with the reference number. In that way, you're sure to get the model with the co-axial escapement. Good hunting! Kindest regards, Bill
I found one for about 1500 eur so that seems more than fair to me there are companies that charge a hell of a lot more for that movement without the george daniels escapement I think.
Hey Bill. I made my first purchase since subscribing to this channel, and I hope you will approve. Following your philosophy to get the most horology within my extremely limited budget, I got an H. Moser and Company antique watch in good condition with beautifully cut hands and a 34mm case. It's not high modern horology, but it is a bit of history from a company with a history. The more you know!
I can tell you, it was cheaper than the $26K or more I would have spent for a new one. But what a company! www.h-moser.com/fr/collection/5900-0200-swiis-alp-watch-minute-retrograde
My vintage Bovet Monorattrapante, like your Moser, is from another rendition of another company than the very high-priced watches of today. Mine has a Valjoux 84 movement from a time when Valjoux was one of the premiere movements. Cheers, Bill
Hi Bill sir ,surely there must be some kind of regulatory authority.I don’t find it misleading it’s outright fraud.one of the best things I’ve learnt from you is the difference in ETA movement and an in house movement.Most are just price gouging us.we should TAG them all and shame them. 👍🏻
Hi Paul, it's tricky.TAG Heuer, for example, has some superior watches with their own movements, but the bulk of their movements are by third parties. ETA has 3 levels of movement, and tags Unitas, Peseux, Valjoux and all of the rest under an ETA label. The reason I think that I don't mind as much as I used to is that it made me learn a lot more about watches and watch collection! Now that I know how to dig to identify the origin of a movement, not only does this help in getting a better watch and watch deal, but it also helped learn more about watches. If I see a watch company advertising ETA, Sellita or Soprod movements, I will trust them a lot more than one that advertises "automatics" without any caliber reference. Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci Hi Sir what I was trying to say .If they are honest and say exactly what’s inside I will be more trusting of that brand.Here in Europe you would not get away selling a tin in a grocery shop with a label saying contains food.And by adding a few blue screws or a coloured cog or gear wheel should not allow the makers to call the movement their own calibration.what do you think sir.👍🏻
Hey Paul, I think you're 100% right. A newly trusted watch company for me is Thomas Ninchritz because they list their movements ( www.uhrenmanufaktur-nuernberg.de/regulateur.html ) For example, their caliber TN 201 is listed as 'Uhrwerk: Kal. TN 201 (Basis UNITAS ETA 6498-1)'; so there's no doubt about the movement base. The site is in German and the prices are in Euros. On the American site where you can buy from a Thomas Ninchritz distributor www.watchbuys.com/store/pc/thomas-ninchritz-watches.asp ), the same watch's movement is listed as 'Movement: Manual mechanical' with no mention of either the movement's name or ETA base. The US has all kinds of laws regulating accurately in labeling. "Manual mechanical" or "automatic" are both accurate, but there's no information one way or the other about the base of the movement. So, while the German site is informative, the American distributor is not. Both are 'honest,' but one leaves out crucial information.Kindest regards, Bill
In the breitling thy didn’t have the silicon stuff cuz tudor wouldn’t give them all the good stuff ... just some :) ( but it’s also a guess why else would they take out the superior stuff )
I like that Fliegeruhr but two things would stop me from buying this watch , one is cash ! Two is I could never bring myself to buying a pilot watch that doesn’t have that big ol onion Crown! Just love that crown ! Best Crown 👑 ever devised !
Hey Pat, the big crown was developed for pilots when their planes were open cockpit and they pilots wore gloves ... big crown allowed winding with gloves on. Watch your six... Bill
Fascinating info something akin "to what's under the hood" when purchasing a auto. How can you tell which level of accuracy your movement has, "Four quality (ratings), COSC" is? Have a Invicta COSC Chronograph 2894 Very Nice in spite of being looked down on by collectors and snobs. Some people have lovely Jaguars XKEs with Chevy engines. Both will get you there differently at times. Thank you. Am price conscious but am impressed with engineered watches!
Great analogy NRS-wouldn't want a Ferrari with a Fiat 500 engine... If a collector is really interested in horology-cool watches can be found anywhere! A COSC Invicta! Only a 1%er could have found that! Cheers, Bill
Hey Eddie .... it took waaaaaay too long. I didn't mean to go on and take up so much time. Usually I like to keep everything under 20 minutes. Kindest regards, Bill
yes the movement is a big deal but that's not the only cost of the watch, the dial with applied numerals or a case that is hand finished can justify a 5000 USD watch with a sellita or eta movement
Hi Luca, if those features are going to justify the cost of the watch; then there should be no problem in telling buyers what kind of movement they're getting as well. Cheers, Bill
Hey Katt2002! There are a lot of ETA movements I like in Panerais ... especially the ETA/Unitas 6498. My only problem with them and the other companies who give ETA movements a phony name (like Leroy 1050 for an ETA 7001) is that they do not tell the buyer...the collector ... us... what they've done and yet charge us the same amount of money as a high horology model! They don't always group them with separate models either. More and more manufacturers are now revealing what's REALLY in their watches because collectors are communicating more. It's up to us to keep them (moderately) honest. Cheers, Bill
Great channel, just subbed. That "Navitimer-8" with Tutor mvmt, looks like a Rolex day-date homage. Navitimers are supposed to be chrono watches. I believe IWCs have a higher level of finish than Sinn.
Hi Mechmove, it turns out that Breitling co-developed the Tudor movement. Watchbase.com originally listed the MT5612 as the base on the B01, but now they changed it, removing the reference to the MT5612 altogether. What actually occurred was that Tudor and Breitling worked to develop the B01 / MT5612 together, and now both use it as a base in other movements. Neither gives credit to the other for the mutually development. Go figure... Cheers, Bill
...... Breitling Called their B20 manufacturer... it's the same way how Tudor Called B01 Movement is their inhouse (manufacturer)...I don't see what's the problem. Two companies work together to produce a great movement
Erwin, you are absolutely right. If you look at the base of the B20 in watchbase.com, you will find Tudor MT5612 as the base for the B20. As you rightly point, it was actually a joint development and I agree that they came out with a great movement-or at least a very good one. Neither company says that. All Breitling (or Tudor) would have to do is to note that their caliber was jointly created and reduce the double-talk and bombastic claims about "manufacture" that sounds like they did it all by themselves. Asking for transparency is simply another way of asking for honesty. Kindest regards, Bill
I will take the IWC over the Hamilton. These are not the same watch. What I love about the IWC is the consideration, legibility, lineage, minimalist aesthetics that is harder to do than a watch with toots and whistles. Side by side there is a big visual difference. The finishing of the movement is also very different. IWC does not buy just buy kits and pop them in. They are refinished, replaced, redone to make them more robust. Richard Habring who worked at IWC did wonderful things with the Valjoux 7750 and tweaked the ETA into a better machine. And the 7750 and what he added to the technical vocabulary formed the base of his company.
In house isn't always better. There are reasons why 2892 were go to movements for the big brands. Why build something yourself that isn't as good as one you can buy right off the shelf.
Hey Watch Cat, why indeed? If they're so good, why are they not heralded in the ads by the watch companies that use them? (Some do, and I wish they all would.) Would it kill them all to be forthcoming? Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci So there are the three levels of the watch purchasing public. People who know nothing. To them it really doesn't matter what the movement is, quartz or mechanical. Then there are the people who know a little bit. The people that have heard that in house is better. They don't know why it is better but they don't ask any further questions. Then the final level. The people who spend days researching but who make up such a tiny percentage of the whole watch buying community. These people are just going to look at the movement and know what it really is anyway.
WatchArtSci The first two groups buy anything and everything. What they buy is not a actually dependent on the watch itself. The last group buys the best even if they can afford something more expensive.
I was thinking that the second group may buy the most advertised and well-known. However, I cannot see why anyone would look at a picture of a celebrity and think it's a good idea to buy a watch on that basis, but they do. Cheers, Bill
Oops, I may have been mistaken. I thought the website stated they use the 7750 valjoux movement. I did email them and they quickly told me about the movement being the 7750 (plus their personal touches). So, with that, plus the features, still a great value. I was interested in a DeWitt in the past, but it was like pulling teeth to figure out what was being used. They heavily modified an ETA and it was like 38 jewels, but a solid case back. I would think you'd want to show it off!!! Great vids!!!
Absolutely love your videos Bill. So much information. I find it amazing that an ETA 2824 is found in a €300 stainless steel watch and a €3000 stainless steel watch. Just seems crazy to pay €2700 for what is essentially a different case. How much better can one SS case be from another.
Hey Robert thanks man! You're exactly right, but that's what happens and is still happening. You can go to any of those sites with their own movements and 'concealed' ETA and Sellita movements, and you'll find they brag about their own 'in-house' movement while using some deceptive caliber name for the ETA and Sellitas. Some, though, have turned the corner; either by fessing up or only using their in-house movements. I believe that Panerai is now all actual in-house, but after so much deception, it'll be a while before I ever trust them again. Take care, Bill
First things first: this has to be your best video to date. I give this to you, you want to know what you're paying for. And the practice of making some changes in the movement and branding it as "caliber xx" could be annoying. But all the rush to inhouse thing is pushing the manufacturers to this practice. Is there a cause for an inhouse movement in an enthousiast/hobbyist/accessory/utility timepiece? For a luxury/prestige item, I get it. But for an everyday watch? The manufacturers use this unnecessary lust for inhouse movement to their own advantage, for product segmentation. At the end, you end up with a piece which is expensive to maintain (and with a long waiting period) instead of a resonable maintenance cost and a same day return.
Hi John, thanks man! I might start looking for good horology in creators like Thomas Ninchritz who use case-fitting Unitas movements ... with nice big movements I can work on! Cheers, Bill
Eddie, I just don't know. The JLC is already at $9,000 and with the bump, the buyer pays, $11,250. I think you'd be a lot better off on Chromo24 and negotiation. If you really want a Patek Philippe, I suggest something after 2000; Calatrava or Gondolo, but for that money, you could get an H. Moser et Cie. ( ua-cam.com/video/Sz7ONq5Kekk/v-deo.html ) They have 4 left at collectorstime.com/brands/h-moser--cie at excellent prices new; but don't even think about the one with the brown dial. I'm saving up for that one. Kindest regards, Bill
Hey Bill, i really like your vids but I have to disagree here. Its not all about the movement and an inhouse movement doesnt mean best quality (all Seiko movements are inhouse). Case, dial and a strong brand are also important. Its a long tradition in horlogerie to use movements from another manufacturer, even Patek and Rolex did it.
Hi Mad Man, great to hear from you! Yes, case and dial are important along with movement, but brand recognition is Madison Avenue hyperbole and ad budget. If Tudor spends millions on Lady Gaga (whom I happen to like) or Beckham or some other "ambassador" what does that really add to the quality of the watch? Would rather have that money spend on development and design. Kindest regards, Bill
If the focus is on the brand and not the actual quality of the watch, you'll miss great watches like Habring2 and Lang & Heyne. Brand name is for impressing others; good watches are for impressing ourselves! Cheers, Bill
Its both - brand and quality. And honestly, for me the look is more important than the newest mechanical gimmicks (without wanting to impress anyone). No mechanical watch can be better than +0,5 - +1 s/day and even a well-tuned ETA can do that ;)
It's like politics, never defend yourself, just slam the other guy... It all comes down to marketing, and reputation (which is a result of performance and marketing)
Bill I appreciate your expertise. I've got four steel sports Rolexes I've bought all new over 25 years. With these watches there is huge profit I'm sure, but with these type watches it comes down to resale value issues and the fickleness of people. But there was no guarantee of retained value, for sure. Watch collecting is a fun, but sick, hobby. For me their only real value is for conversation at parties! Asa Baeber said it, the rich buy things that ascend in value, and like art, use it and enjoy it for free while they own it. If I sold my four Rolex models,my Zenith Daytona would likely get me back to zero net money spent after owning them all for 25 years. Achieving that is a kick. It's like answering the question, how old should James Bond be? Is he a 25 year old stud who somehow knows what 50 year old men know? Or is he just a 50 year old man who doesn't have insulin resistance? Either way, it's a fantasy.....
Hi Mark, I think that the key is to use and enjoy them. I don't worry about value retention, and if the watch gains in value that's certainly a plus, A couple of watches I've worn and enjoyed went up in price significantly, but since I have no intention of selling them, it doesn't matter. Same with those that went down or unchanged. Indeed we're in a sick but fun hobby! Cheers, Bill
I agree that watch companies should be transparent about their movement, but I disagree that in-house is necessary better (although the R&D does justify the higher price). I think many watchmakers prefer reliable tried and tested movements to fancy manufacture ones. There is a reason the 2824, 2893, 7001 or 7750 have been around for so long.
Hey, David, about those movements that have been around so long; is it because they're so cheap or so good? If they're so good, why aren't they advertised as the movement or movement base of the watches they're in? I have a watch with a ETA 7001 that was snuck in, and it's ok. Is it high horology, as claimed by the watch mfg? No, but they were perfectly happy charging a price of high horology. As collectors, we've got to stick up for ourselves. The watch companies won't. Kindest regards, Bill
Hi Bill, there is more than the movement; but if a company conceals the nature of the movement, what other deceptions might there be? If you ever bought a Porsche and instead of a Porsche engine, you discovered a Volkswagen Golf engine, you would be outraged. However, if you buy an IWC watch with an ETA movement base that was not revealed but instead given a caliber indication that suggests a manufactured IWC movement, that's ok? Not to me. If I am offered a watch that clearly indicates an ETA (or any other movement), I have no problem with that. However, to justify deception is only to cheapen the whole fabric of high horology watch collection. Cheers, Bill
Hi Bill, have been busy and not watch shopping much. Collection is pretty much stalled. But am enjoying wearing them of course. I have two NOS Doxa watches that I will take for service soon, will email a photo. They are really nice, manual wind. Rea and I both will be teaching beginning in May, that will give us more budget for our side interests. We also plan to do some videos soon, and have been upgrading our equipment and editing skills. Take care, and keep up the good work. I see 3.5k subscribers now!
I love those Doxas! Especially the divers with the orange dial. What are you going to be teaching? You two would be a great pair to teach watch collection in addition to everything else. Cheers, Bill
Rea will be teaching English to 1st graders. I will teach "Texan" English conversation to University-level students. We both taught a couple of years ago, but quit to travel and just chill out. The Doxa watches I have are vintage, manual wind watches. I will send you pics. I always wanted one of the orange divers, but just never pulled the trigger on one. I missed a few of your shows, and am catching up tonight.
The knuckleheads on ebay pull the same stunts. Their ad will say "MONDIA by ZENITH". ( I emailed Zenith about Mondia; I was told that although Zenith and Mondia were in a holding company together, Zenith NEVER made a watch, or movement, for Mondia. ( As I write this, an ad of this type is currently on ebay! ) Also, another ad will say " 1957 RECORD watch by LONGINES" . As Longines bought the majority interest in Record in 1961, a 1957 Record watch had nothing to do with Longines. ( There is, also, an ad of this type on ebay! ) I get so irritated, I will email the seller to educate them; not that it does any good. Thanks for exposing their bullshit. Keep up the good work Bill! ( Buy a VOSTOK or ORIENT if you want a non B.S. watch! )
Hey Burkhold, I wish that Ebay would require some modicum of accuracy in their ads. Not as bad as Craig's List, but it will be if they continue to let sellers say whatever they please to sell a watch. In the meantime we collectors must be wary and informed. Take care, Bill
Burkhold St. Rudderberg I don’t think contacting the sellers to educate them will work because they know exactly what they are doing. Very risky buying a used watch on eBay sir unless you really know your stuff.good luck 👍🏻
In many cases Paul, your are right. However, some sellers ( let's say they focus mainly on cast iron skillets ) will pick up a watch and sell it on ebay without knowing much at all. They assume, because the dial says BENRUS, that the movement was also made by BENRUS; and that is how they advertise the watch. ( Those of us in the know have reason to question that. ) One rule I use when buying a watch on ebay is: Look at the sellers record of sales; do they sell cast iron skillets most of the time ( and an occasional watch ) or do they sell watches most of the time? If their main sales are watches, they are without excuse when they make a bogus claim. As far as calling out the questionable sellers, what if we all did it?
You have very valid arguments about the movements but have you considered the cost of design and style? You cannot put a price on art/design even though the movement is the same. The Mona Lisa costed pennies for material right? So a Richard Mille isn't just the movement. How much is the look worth and I think that is subjective but honest to understand. For me the pilot watch, the Vacheron the IWC has no design. They are boring. A circle with terrible numbers and straight markers. I mean if you're going to make a 13k or 35k watch try harder! They lack any sense of difference from a $50 for looks and I feel you're getting ripped off not just for the movement but the design or lack of. That's why the Bovet 19Thirty is a nice watch. It looks great and has personality!
Hi Anthony, sure I've considered the cost of case design. Fossil has some dandy ones, but when I buy a watch, I buy the whole watch...and I have a hunch that you do too. Yes, the Bovet 19Thirty Fleurier is special in just about every way-the movement and case were made for one another rather than an off-the-shelf-movement dropped into an off-the-shelf case with an off-the-shelf design.That's what makes it special. I agree that most of the watches by the 'Holy Trinity' and others, not to mention Rolex, are not exactly inspiring except to a certain segment of the watch-buying public-the vast majority. However, there are Vacheron-Constantin watches (like my 1921 and 1972) that are unique, fun and different, as there are among the Patek Philippe, AP and Rolex-love that Cellini Prince! So, we need to consider the whole watch from design to movement to finishing; not just one thing. Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci Hi Bill I think our opinions coincide about the Holy Trinity brands. I just don't find them exciting whenever I go into the stores to browse. I love the Bovet 19Thirty and that's on my list to buy. Also like the Cuervo Y Sobrinos Pirata line with the bronze case which is very unique and has character. What do you think about those watches? Other brands I like are Parmigiani, Louis Moinet, Bovet as mentioned. The dials have a lot more going on that the standard watches but I like interesting cases too which is why I like Parmigiani.
Hi Anthony, I think that Bovet, Parmigiani and H. Moser are all great buys for outstanding watches. At one time I was hopeful about Louis Moinet, but the only thing about the company is the namesake-not the product. As for Cuervo Y Sobrinos, that's a Cuban watchmaker who uses ETA movements, but doesn't charge crazy prices. I too like some of Cuervo Y Sobrinos designs..always on my radar. Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci Thanks Bill for the insight. You're my favourite youtube watch channel now. Luck to have found you. There are 3 models for the Bovet 19Thirty on their website and I can't see any differences? Any idea? You don't think Louis Moinet is good? The prices are expensive. My preference is #1 19Thirty #2 Cuervo Pirata Torpedo which is very affordable at around $3500. Just contemplating weather to save up and get #1 first. But there are more priorities in life then a $12k watch haha. By the way, the Parmigiani Tonda 1950 Lune is a beautiful watch. Is that what you have?
Anthony, the Parmigiani Tonda 1950 Lune is a wonderful watch, but I do not have it. I wouldn't mind having it. Of the three Bovet 19Thirty Fleurier models ... one is Arabic numbers,; one is Roman numerals; and one is Chinese characters. I got the one with Arabic numerals. Let me know which one you decide on! Good hunting, Bill
My mate is a Master Carpenter and Joiner. If I ask him to make ME something he will charge me mates rate at what he knows I can easily afford. When he makes something for a Millionaire et al he charges hundreds of times more. Reason being, if he charged the price he charged me they would think it wasn't top quality, so he charges a higher price and the Millionaire believes they are getting a superior quality item ! Substitute this for watches and ....well you get the idea !
Hi Proipp. The same thing happens in the watch business, but since the Master Watchmaker (who may never have touched a watch he designed), rarely can the watchmaker give his pals a discount. Instead, the Authorized Dealer (AD) can arrange a discount for his friends/family. However, the millionaires, instead of having to pay relative to their wealth, usually get the best discounts! Over time, the millionaire is going to buy more watches than the average Joe; there are more average Joes than there are millionaires who can afford expensive luxury watches; so to attract and keep their business, the millionaire gets a better deal than you or I. In the work I used to do with computers, sometimes I'd need help from a friend who was a designer. I'd need something like a logo or other design, and she could whip it up in a minute (I couldn't do it in an eternity...) Then she'd need help with a program, and I'd do the programming for her. (I imagine you have a similar arrangement with your mate the Master Carpenter.) Great to hear from you and welcome! Kindest regards, Bill
Price to quality deception. The sheeps buy it up.
@@watchartsci good video I was surprised to see that the $800 Hamilton has the same movement as a $4000 breitling thanks for the video I subscribed!!! :) 😎👍
@@kingadjust5422 Wouldn't it be nice if Breitling, IWC, Cartier and all the rest that use ETA and Sellita movements be candid with us about their base movements? Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci I 100% agree also can you make another video on cheap watches that have the same movements as expensive watches :) 😎👍
Bill, thanks for this great video. Collectors like me are eternally grateful for people like you who can enlighten us to the subtleties of watch manufacture and design. One would be forgiven if they questioned the value proposition with brands like Richard Mille and Hublot.
Hi MrRea! I'm very happy you liked it. The trick with Richard Mille is to get around the appearance and really find the Richard Mille genius as a watchmaker, and it's generally there, even with a Vaucher base (which in itself is a brilliant movement). As for Hublot, don't hold too many preconceptions about them because you can find some great Hublots. For me, most Hublots and RM watches just aren't my cup of tea. However, the ones I like are very likable! Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci Wise counsel indeed, Bill. I’m on the same page as you with Richard Mille. His styles are just a little too “out there” for me. As for Hublot, why risk it when there are wonderful brands like JLC and Tudor that offer such value for excellence coupled with lovely designs? Granted, some Hublots can be achingly beautiful. I must be getting old and conservative!
What a wonderful lecture. Did not realize how fast those 28 mins went.learned a lot from the video
Thanks Randeep. Glad to hear you liked it. Cheers, Bill
IWC Portuguese Chronograph used to be my dream watch when I did not know about watches. But after watching these informative videos enlightened me and I know there are many other watches in that price range. If I am not going to be rich enough own a rolls, then IWC is never going to be in my collection. I don’t have that kind of money to burn! Bill, thanks for reviwing a Nomos world timer! The video helped me get a used one!
Hi shnam13, I agree about the IWC Portuguese Chronograph. It turned out to be a bit of a hollow ring even though they are highly regarded. (At one time I think IWC had their own movement in them and may still, but you never know.) As for the Nomos World Timers, congratulations man!! Cheers, Bill
I'm exactly in the same situation. My dream watch (the IWC Portuguese) was a con to me, now I own a Rolex.
What I like with Rolex in that it is fully in-house, no artificial features. Simple and robust.
Bill, among those I've watched, this is your most informative video yet. Thanks for your contribution to making watches as a hobby a more informed one!
My pleasure Gilberto. I think some watch companies are getting the message as they are becoming more transparent ... even though they'd rather not be! Cheers, Bill
Excellent video Bill as usual. Researching before buying a watch is the difference between a watch enthusiast or collector and a fashion follower being this last the majority of people. Cheers!!
Hey Akula, that's a great way of expressing the it. One of the other subscribers quoted Napoleon: "time spent on reconnaissance is seldom wasted..." Cheers, Bill
This is one reason I’m a big fan of Seiko and Orient. Granted they are inexpensive in the world of watches, at least I know what I’m getting.
Hey Jack1979, that's one way not to get burned, but as you widen your knowledge, you widen your options! Kindest regards, Bill
Jack1979 Apples to apples please, let’s be serious.
I’m a fan of Rolex sport watches...I know what I get too...buy one and they go up in value
I'm the same. You pay a fortune for a watch and you get... yup, an ETA like everyone else's watches. Btw, I'm a fellow Seiko fan and am saving for a quartz Grand Seiko.
Great bullet proof watches..Seiko
I am late to the party, but this is definitely one of the best video on youtube ever made about watch collecting.
Hey Otto, better late than never, as the saying goes. Welcome! Thank you for you nice compliments. Watch collectors should look out for one another! Kindest regards, Bill
Just discovered your channel and am loving the insight..thank you. This cloak and dagger stuff isnt just in the watch market..its endemic across consumer manufacturing. With regard to your point about Breitling / Tudor movement...the reason Breitling won't say its a Tudor movement is because it weakens the brand and there's a risk that potential customers will just go and buy a Tudor instead.
Hardly any (read none) of the videos on watches discuss branding and yet it is the most important aspect of the market. The profit margins between cost of manufacture and retail price are huge and these prices are propped up largely on image and perception. The other thing they do of course, and Rolex are focussing heavily on this currently, is adding $400 of gold and charging $4,000 more....It seems a tweaked ETA movement and $400 worth of gold adds about $7,000 to the value of a watch.
Yes, Richard, skullduggery is not the owned child of the watch business and like a smart shopper, we need to dig deep into what's under the hood and behind the curtains. Welcome to Watch ArtSci! Take care, Bill
Bill, great topic and great video. I will throw one more out there regarding Breitling and Tudor. The caliber in the Tudor Heritage Black Bay Chrono that won the 2017 GPHG Petite Aiguille is based on the Breitling B01. And guys, do not get me wrong. That Tudor is a great watch. Just adding something to the discussion. Have a great weekend!
Emillio, it's even crazier! The collaboration looks like the Tudor MT5612 movement is based somehow on the B01, and then the B20 is based on the Tudor MT5612. Actually, the B01 exists in part because of Tudor and the MT5612 is based on the B01 and the B20 ... why not just a direct based on the B20 on the B01?! This article (sort of) explains it all: monochrome-watches.com/tudor-breitling-alliance-movements-exchange-opinion/. And Emillio, thank you for that further insight! Cheers, Bill
Bill, I have had someone explain a plus side of having an ETA or similar (non Manufacturer movement), which is that the service cost would be lower and more importantly, it can be serviced in other watch shops, not just at the Manufacturer's Service Center. Would appreciate your comments based on your experience.
Binoy, that is true. Watch repair shops love ETA movements, especially since they can get parts and they're familiar with them. Rolex makes life difficult for non-Rolex service centers; so the average Joe watch repair rejoice when an ETA comes in. The designs are generally simpler too. Kindest regards, Bill
Thank you Bill. Do you have any instance you can recollect where you had serviced an ETA movement vs an in-house movement and what was your experience, including the cost of service itself.
Binoy, not all in-house services are the same. My FP Journe Chronomètre à Résonance is the most expensive (around $2k) and my least was a stuck Peseux 7001 (now ETA 7001) for $30; so it depends. I have a Raymond Weil over 20 years old with an ETA 2892-2 that has never been serviced and it still runs fine-not greatly accurate, but it never was. Kindest regards, Bill
Hello Bill, the one thing I will say about IWC is that they upgrade several components on the SW300 movement. For instance, they use ceramic ball bearings for the rotor. It would be good if they clearly state both the base movement and the extent of their modifications.
Hi WA, they do good movements ... when they do them. Cheers, Bill
Price diff in ETA quality tiers is not just due to the positions adjusted to but due to the upgraded components within the movement, for example Etachoc vs Incabloc for shock protection and ordinary nickel vs Glucydur balance wheels.
Steven, thank you for that. I didn't realize that ETA has different quality components. More for me to learn about! Kindest regards, Bill
Top video Bill! You are the best watch channel on youtube. I learn always something new every time in your videos. It's like a tuition in watches.
kind regards
Andi
Hey Andi, thanks man! Kindest regards, Bill
Brilliant lecture. Fascinating. Any thoughts on Junghans Meister Chronometer and the COSC Baume et Mercier Baumatic 5 days Chronometer. I’d love to buy both but funds allow only one. Watch movements I believe many brands have had us over .......at some point.
Hi Douglas, of those two, I'd take the Baume et Mercier Baumatic 5 days Chronometer; probably the best from B&M right now. Cheers, Bill
I'm biased about expensive watches hosting a "simple" movement (ETA etc) and asking a premium for it.
Very insightful, cheers!
Hi Michael, I don't think it's bias-I consider it clear thinking. I'm good with an ETA (or Sellita, or Soprod) in a that fits the case and the seller tells me about. Thomas Ninchritz seems to be able to do it with aplomb. www.uhrenmanufaktur-nuernberg.de Cheers, Bill
There is no shame in telling the truth, unless you want to cheat.
Very informative video. Very educational! Thanks for posting. Is it true that some brands just take an ETA movement and decorate it a little and then give it an ‘in house’ movement # and market it as such?
My pleasure Keekee! Kindest regards, Bill
I gotta say Invicta and Aragon have some amazing amazing movements in their shamefully affordable watches. Great video and thanks for sharing.
Hi Timemachine, thanks, man. I really don't know that much about either brand, but one of the collections I reviewed had some very interesting Invictas. Thanks for the information and there's more for me to learn about. Kindest regards, Bill
Hi Bill,thanks for your video.It’s unfair how big brands manage the information about movements. We consumers need to pay attention on what we buy.
You bet Emanuele! No one is going to stand up for us ... but us! That's ok, though, we're certain to learn more about watches that way! Cheers, Bill
That's why i dont buy those watches with case back instead of glass back. Most of the time those case back watches use common unpolished raw movement. Those who dare to use glass back are at least proud of the movements inside, whether in-house-made or off the shelf.
Hey Kok, same here. Not only do I like to see what's ticking in my watch and what I paid for; I just like to look at a beautiful movement.The only exception are the ultra thin watches ... exhibition windows add thickness. The one 'extra plate' watch I have has a solid gold case-back hides a Peseux 7001....an extra thin movement now owned by ... who else? ... ETA. Cheers, Bill
@@watchartsci u can get ultra thin JLC, the movement is awesome, value for money compared to IWC watches. (Actually there's no comparison at all). The other reason I only buy modern era watch with glass watch is to be able to authenticate the watch before part my hard earned money from my account. I owned 2 Jaquet Droz n 5 Glashutte Original, althou they cant compare to PP or Lange, I found them really really well built n the movements are real true beauties. They dont hide what's inside their watches coz they r proud of them.
The's one other thing though- how well the movement is cased and regulated has more to do with accurate timekeeping than the movement itself, and hopefully if you are buying an expensive luxury watch your'e getting this additional attention to detail.
Example: Think of all the cars that use the Ford Ecotec engine. You've got commuter cars, sports cars, varying power outputs- because they use the same base engine does not make them identical or the more expensive one or a bad value. Watches are the sum of a lot of factors besides simply the movement that was installed in it.
Mytube, from my experience, the good HH watches all have good cases, and your point is well-taken. Take care, Bill
Great analysis ! Some of the reputable watch companies use generic movements and sell them at high price and attempt to mask the actual movement with Calibre XYZ therefore most consumer will be paying for their design or looks. For model like tudor black bay are using their in-house movement with accuracy standard of Chronometer which makes them value of money as compare to those who use generic ones and charged at much higher price range.
Hi Tan Ray! Thanks man! An old Black Bay Tudor with a COSC rated ETA is often a great deal. You can easily find them in Condition 0 (brand new) for under $2k. A Heritage Black Bay with a Tudor Calibre MT5602 movement will cost about $1,000 more. Either way, Tudors are good buys for a sports watch. Cheers, Bill
Great video Bill if it wasn't for you I'd never have known as much as I do now . With my budget it's pretty much Seiko Hamelton and Microbrand watches . But it's nice having the knowledge about different movements.
There are always good buys ... just knowing what they are can get you what you want but cannot afford, Junior. The great bulk of my collection is founded on that. Many of the watches I have could not afford now! Take care, Bill
I agree. If it’s going to be a shelf movement, then I find no need to go upmarket. I prefer in house movements regardless of the price of watch.
Hi J Lo. I'd be happy is they just told me what the base is and modifications, if any. This kind of confusion should make Rolex collectors happy. Cheers, Bill
Have you ever done a video on the Chinese ETA crisis? I saw where the Chinese copy was outperforming the original and they showed part by part is almost identical. Also, I'd be interested in your take on Grand Seiko and Shanghai where they have a tourbillon movement. Do these watches meet the standard of high horology?
Hi Andrew, the only video dedicated to Chinese horology was a video I did on an outstanding collection from China: ua-cam.com/video/3L9hOGcJxJ0/v-deo.html That may have some answers for you. Kindest regards, Bill
Fantastic video, appreciate the knowledge you share. My daily is a Seiko Flightmaster Sna411p1 and, when I wanted my first mechanical watch, I ended up with an SAS Air "first edition". The CAD dollar was strong, the value was there, and I absolutely fell in love with it. Really enjoy watching your videos and learning more about watches as I fall deeper in the rabbit hole of watch collecting. Cheers
Hey Jeff, thanks man. Indeed it is a rabbit hole with a money pit at the base ... but somehow it's a lot of fun. Cheers, Bill
Hi Bill! I took a punt and bought a watch from an auction. It was listed as made by a watchmaker and is a one off, unfortunately the guy has now passed away. The dial face has the mans name on it Mussard who's family emigrated to England back in the 17c from Geneve. The family has a watch shop near Swansea in Wales. The reverse of the watch has a glass back and on the rotor it has the mans name Mussard and 1026. Do you think the 1026 is the movement? Great video's, very interesting.
Hi Eamonn, a Mussard automatic chronograph? Daniel Mussard may have done the automatic, but chronographs in watches were not available until the early 19th Century, and automatic chronographs weren't available until around 1969. It was not uncommon for watch companies to put their name of the watches that they sold, and the Mussard Watch company in Swansea may have put their name on the watch in some post-1969 period. My hunch is that the watch may be a combination of watches without a name and Mussard stamped their name on it. The '1026' would more likely be a part number than a movement number. These are all guesses, though.You can email me a picture of the watch if you'd like. (See ua-cam.com/video/uVqCTuA-naw/v-deo.html for contact information) In any event, it sounds like a very interesting watch you have. Kindest regards, Bill
This video is exactly what I love about watch collecting. Finding out exactly what caliber you're getting for your money. I fully agree that buying a watch for double sometimes quadruple (or more) the price because it has a nicer case or they made the same base movement from a different material can be attributed to marketing hype. But it's also the stock these people place in the brand too. Which is why Rolex is considered one of the best watch makers in the world when I would call them objectively mediocre at best.
We all know that the luxury watch business floats on a sea of hyperbole, and the trick is to find the diamonds in the coal mines of horology. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci Correct. There is a lot of hyperbole in the world of mechanical watches. I think it was probably the Nautilus that spawned the concept that a mechanical wrist watch made of stainless steel could be worth more than it's exact equivalent in gold or even platinum.
It was at this point also that many watch companies realized that what the watch cost to make, would no longer be a factor in how much they should charge for the watch.
@@JamesVincex I think you're exactly right. The more spent on marketing the more valuable the perceived value of the watch. Gold and platinum raise the price way more than the noble metals cost to obtain and forge, which themselves are hyped beyond any intrinsic value....but that's been the watch business model for at least the last 50 years. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Great video. Can you spend some more time talking about what separates the movements in terms of complications and reliable older movements still in use? Thank you.
Hi Jay, the funny thing is that some of the ETAs might even be superior to some of the in-house movements cheaply made. What's ranking is the deception ... but your point's a good one and will see what I can do. Take care, Bill
My Navitimer was the same. Breitling insist on calling the calibre a _Breitling 23_ when it was in fact an _ETA Valjoux 7753_ , though this was fairly widely known. It does get very tricky with the more obscure brands to research what the base movements actually are.
Hi Meson1. They go to great lengths and spend a lot on marketing. Maybe if they shifted a little from marketing to development, they wouldn't have to hide their ETA. (The Valjoux 7753 isn't a terrible movement, by the way-they just think that a B-23 movement allows them to charge more.) Cheers, Bill
I have nothing against ETA movements. They are all solid and reliable, the Valjoux 7750 being amongst the most respected of those.
I don't have anything against Sellita either. For many years, Sellita manufactured ebauches for ETA under contract. They had the tooling and expertise, so when the Swatch Group decided to restrict supply, Sellita saw an opportunity and started making clones of ETA movements whose protections had expired. Sellita, unjustifiably are viewed as inferior to ETA which I don't think is really the case.
I do not see the harm in watch makers declaring the base movements of the calibres they offer in the product specifications. Instead of 'dragging down' the brand, it ought to elevate the respect for the movement. But I guess the world just doesn't work that way.
Meson1, I agree...mostly. At one time, there were a lot of Sellita movements that were off a fraction which caused problems. It had to do with certain calibrations that were not up to standards. However, from what I understand, you're right about ETA being brought out in a positive way. Valjoux, Peseux, Lemania, Unitas and ETA itself used to be considered pre-quartz movement. A Lemania movement was inside the Omega moon watch. The centralization of the movements under the ETA banner led to more efficient and cheaper production, and often the bottom standard level ETA (2 positions of adjustment) is used to characterize all movements under the ETA umbrella. Cheers, Bill
I learned a lot from this video, Bill. Thanks. Also, just got The Wristwatch Handbook you recommended. Great birthday present to myself 😉
Great to hear Eye! Let me know how you like Ryan's book. Cheers, Bill
I had the same problem with Laco Fliegers that have $35 Japanese movements in them that they sell for $500+. Is it really worth $350 more than an Orient flieger?
Great example, Wakawaka! Like putting a mink coat on a skunk! Take care and stay safe, Bill😷
This Tutima you suggested is the best watch I own. it will run for 3 or 4 days when wound - keeps perfect time, what a great movement. thank you Bill
Hi John, did you get the green one? I may have suggested more than one ... I sometimes get really excited about a brand when I find gems! Cheers, bill
@@watchartsci I got a blue dial. I would have lived the Green one, but I could not find it on sale.
Green is the color of the money you saved by getting the Blue Dial! Congratulations! Kindest regards, Bill
One of your best videos, Bill. Well done.
Hey Jason, thanks man! Kindest regards, Bill
Fabulously informative article. It also reinforces my respect for frequently despised brands like Seiko. I own a Seiko SARB033, which has an in-house movement (6R15C) which keeps excellent time (a couple of seconds per day loss) which, while not particularly pretty, is a bargain at less than £300.00. The case also exhibits a level of finishing that puts many very expensive brands to shame.
Hey Oldvole! Yes, Seiko makes very good watches....and they have no mystery movements! Kindest regards, Bill
Great, informative video again as usual Bill! Thank you!
Hey Amodio, thanks man! Kindest regards, Bill
Another good one Bill with good advice. You are much more forgiving in your language about this deception than I am. Which would not be suitable for your channel. The Breitling and Pelagos are about the same retail price. But why not just say It is a Tudor movement. Change the hair spring, and the rotor, add some decorations and all of a sudden it is Breitling manufactured? I always assume Hamilton is going to be an ETA. And that Breitling Navitimer compared to the Hamilton is a good example of how to get burned. The Cartier examples leads me to think if you are willing to do this, what else are you willing to do? Nothing wrong with ETA but it will dictate how much money I am willing to put out.
Dallas, I think that you put it as succinctly as possible. There's nothing wrong with an ETA movement; so just tell the buyer what he's getting. If it's an ETA, it's worth less; not because of a problem with ETA, but it is mass produced and so less valuable by a movement manufactured by the brand. (This could be an irony, because indeed a watch company could make a movement inferior to any number of movements under the ETA umbrella.) The watch companies scream bloody murder about fake watches with their brand name; so set a good example by not implying something genuine high horology when it is not. Cheers, Bill
Bill,
Love the Freudian Slip at 12:31, I also bought the Hermes you did a show on awhile back, pictured here to, and although the movement is Vaucher I'm hoping it won't cost the arm or leg to have it serviced, and what's your opinion, how many watchmaker's will touch it just because it is a Vaucher?
I had my Seiko Spring Drive serviced, I was told to send it to New York and it would be taken care of. Seiko sent me a letter saying all Spring Drive watches are sent to Japan for servicing, although the price Seiko stated for the work did not change I had to wait two weeks more, I hope not too many hoops are involved when servicing the Hermes, Vaucher movement.
JIM
Hi Jim, as Homer S. would say... d'oh! Have you sent in the Hermes for service yet? The ones with the Vaucher movement are relatively new (about 5 years old or so....). Would very much like to hear how the service works out. My two FPJs took about 3 months each...great service, though. They now have a service center in Miami, which is nice. Cheers, Bill ... and don't forget to let us know how the service went!
Great video! One of my favorites from you. You really do intense research in the field. I think I know about watches, but I always learn something with your videos. Thank's! I have a question: is 1904MC a really in-house movement from Cartier? Because I see that Vacheron Constantin and Piaget uses it also. Is it Piaget and Cartier uses it or was it Cartier the inventor?
Hi Lee, thanks man! Go to about 11:30 on this video (...or the beginning to get the context): ua-cam.com/video/3bqojJ7Cjw4/v-deo.html
--Let me know if that answers your question. Kindest regards, Bill
So...no mention of another watch company (cough tag heuer cough) using a sellita 300 in a $6000 watch?
Not a word Clyve! Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci: please consider me a fan, respecktos!
Thanks man! I will! Kindest regards, Bill
Agreed they base of the watch isn't always mentioned but then again this only means that they use the drive train that is used in those movements, but never forget that companies like IWC regulate and handfinish these movements. this has to be taken into account.
Hi Cedric, all good points. Given that state of affairs, it would be simple to state that the base of their x-caliber is an ETA xxx or Sellita xxx. Why don't they do that? They have different pricing for IWC-manufactured movements, which indicates they're worth more. Watch enthusiasts and collectors should not be deceived in any way, and several watch companies indicate clearly their movement bases. There's no reason IWC, Cartier and Panerai (among others) cannot do the same thing. Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci This is why I personnally believe that in most cases an in house movement isn't worthy of the cost (the cost is simply high because they spend a ton of money on the development of a new drivetrain.) For example habring has shown us the greatest of things coming from sellita or ETA bases. They don't mention it simply because the customer has to have a great understanding of why it uses the ETA base, never forget that there is a population a lot less savy on watches and particularly movements who would not understand that the ETA in an IWC is nowhere near comparison of just a top grade ETA (standard delivery from ETA)
of course on watches like your moser, the FP journe, and lots of other independants the more cost of the in house, casefitting movement is worthy of the extra cost
Hi Cedric, Habring2 at one time did use ETA bases in their watches. In 2011they developed their own base movement called the A11, and introduced it in the Felix. Since then, they have sold out the bulk of their old stock (what little there was) with ETA-based watches and replaced them with the A11 used in the Felix. Now their watches are A11-based, including the new Doppel Felix that just won another Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève prize. It is a mistake to suggest that Habring2 watches are ETA-based now even though they were at one time. Significantly, when Habring2 did use ETA-based movements, they told their customers exactly which ETA movement was used in each and every watch they used them in. The reason that the 'million-plus dollar' figure is thrown around for developing a new movement is because a big watch company may put a team of watchmakers to work on a single movement-watchmakers, designers and production engineers (not to mention accountants, lawyers and administrators). Their combined salaries can easily add up to a million in a short period of time; hence, the "million dollars development'" figure. Richard Habring, Philippe Defour, F.P. Journe, Michel Parmigiani, Marco Lang, Kari Voutilainen, Roger Smith, and Jean-Marc Wiederrecht (among others) are usually doing the design and development themselves; so, they don't have the $million development costs, and they're usually brilliant watchmakers ... far more so than the salaried watchmakers working in clusters under company policies and their limitations.
--All that companies like IWC need to do to is to clearly state that 1) They use ETA ébauches in the watches that use them, and 2) They add value to the ETA parts by doing X-Y-Z, making them. Otherwise, they are practicing a form of deception and watch collectors who pay thousands of dollars for their watches should know that.
Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci True but what I meant was that there is nothing wrong with not mentioning it, simply because the 'normal' client of IWC is not an expert and there is just way more chance that they won't understand what happens to these movements (+they simply don't care) . For those of us who really are into watches (and more so those of us who are into movements) this does indeed feel like deception. Personally I like that they use ETA's in them, it makes the service cost for a just graduaded student way more approachable than an FP journe or a moser, or even a VC historique which I know you have and I'm not ashamed to say I like A LOT.
I saw a 2 thousand dollar watch that two other people used the one cost 8 thousand more then that 2 Grand watch , then that Richard Mille used the same movement, he just made it out of some weird metal but it’s the same movement! And as you can imagine! He was selling it for 200 Grand more than the first watch sold for 2 thousand?
Sheeeeze! Pat, there's no telling what can happen! Take care, Bill
My assumption on all of these is that the watch maker is buying a base movement, and then performing a boat load of polishing and tuning, possibly shaping, to the various parts. Are you saying that they are simply buying these movements direct from ETA, putting them in cases of varying quality, and charging the markup for a named case?
Unfortunately, Robert, yes. There is often elaborate engraving on the rotor and re-naming the movement, but it's not much more. The link to the following watchmaker is the opposite of what concealers do: www.lang-und-heyne.de/en/manufacture/creation/ Kindest regards, Bill
The guy that makes those watches out of weird materials, Miller maybe? He sold one of his watches with the same movement that another watch sold for a little over 2 grand, Miller sold his for about 60 or 70 thousand more , of course he put weird metals in it , but it was the same exact movement as the 2 Grand watch , how are you Doing Bill ? I hope life is treating you good , I’m still hanging in here , not sure if I told you , but I have Esophageal Cancer , I went for two checkups a month Pryor to me almost internally bleeding to death , just about a week or so after they told me I had no problems! Turns out after they really checked me out , I not only had Esophageal Cancer but I also had lung liver and brain cancer ! Again I’m hanging in there , love your watch collection Bill , my Brother bought me a Seiko prospex great white shark diver watch , I like it a lot keeps pretty good time , and water proof to 650 feet , has a blue dial with waves , again God Bless Bill ,
Hi Pat, yes, I understand you've been very ill. Rest easy if you can and find something you'll be able to enjoy. That's about all any of us can do. Your Seiko Prospex Great White won the "Diver Watch Prize" at the 2019 Grand Prix d’Horlogerie de Genève! Your brother really picked a winner for you! Kindest regards, Bill
Very good topic. It seems to me these brands are biting the hand that feeds... we are WIS, we know and care about the movements in our timepieces. There brands are acting like we are the ignorant majority where they think we will be satisfied just because it says "mechanical movement". The industry will die within a 100 years if there is not more transparency. Rant over. Thank you.
Hi FM, I hope they quit acting like they'll go out of business if they tell the truth. They may have more difficulty if they keep putting cheap movements in watches and charging prices far beyond the horological value. Unfortunately, as H. L. Mencken said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public..." Little by little the watch companies seem to be coming around. We'll see. Cheers, Bill
The pre Richemont era watches produced up until the end of the last century means you can buy an IWC with either JLC mechanical or mechaquartz movements; for less than $4500.
Thanks for that information James. It'd be so much easier if they all just stated clearly and fully the base of the movements and any enhancements they did. As collectors who pay a lot of money for these watches there's no reason we should accept anything less; but too often we do. Cheers, Bill
totally agree, the lesson is : do your homework, and don't buy a RM is a scam in my opinion
Hey Rafael, it's hard to know. When Habring2 was using Valjoux movements, they'd brag about the fact and do things with it that showed the highest level of watchmaking skill. Once the A11x came along, all of the new models had some version of the A11 that was first introduced in the Felix A11B. Would that be so hard? Cheers, Bill
You're right, I'm just saying putting armor glass into a watch and steel string do not add to horology a G-shock could give the same result, and RM is not a watchmaker he is a marketing person and that's where he is really good at. obviously I'm not a fan of those pieces. But I get your point, anyhow great video cheers!!
Rafael, it's always great to hear from you. Kindest regards, Bill
Hi Bill u put in a lot of effort to educate us, itching to buy another watch soon, if u have time please look at the heritage auction site they have a watch auction may 29 or so, does any watch receive 5 stars from you? there are a couples of Pateks that look nice appreciate your thoughts thanks
Eddie, you can probably expect a 25% fee on your top bid. So a winning bid of $5,000 is going to cost you $6,250. As for 5 stars, nothing caught my eye, but you have to give me a bidding ceiling. They have $200,000 + at the top. Also, tell me a minimum case size. Some of the watches from the 60s are very small by today's standards.
Lots of great information here..Thanks Bill
Hi Alton, thanks man! Here's one that provides a lot of context for why Switzerland became a center for watchmaking: ua-cam.com/video/J6X0yu5wTes/v-deo.html Cheers, Bill
I have very low regard for IWC. They sale watches with ETA or Sellita movements at costs of in-house and their own, recent, movement, is giving lots of problems, with sludge. In fact, their in-house movement is not better at all than the ETA... Paradoxical.
Hi Lee, let me clarify something: I have nothing against ETA or Sellita. Both are inexpensive and fairly robust movements. What I don't like is not knowing that my watch (IWC ... among the usual suspects) has an ETA or other bargain brand movement for a watch that touts itself as "high horology" and has prices that reflect a movement with more than an off-the-shelf movement that sells for about $100. Currently I am finishing up a watch that I put together myself: I bought a German enamel dial for $50; a Chinese clone of the ETA/Unitas 6497 for $30; and a steel case with a sapphire glass on the front and back for about $40. That's a total of $120 for the watch. I modified the movement by clipping the post off the fourth wheel (aka 'seconds wheel') One more thing...I got sterling silver leaf hands for $12...so that's $132-sans band or bracelet. So I have a pretty nice watch for $132 (my only one with an enamel dial). For my second watch, I got an actual ETA /Unitas 6498 ($75), a brass-plated steel case ($40) with sapphire glass front and back and a dial with blued hands ($24)--roughly $150. They do not include the bands, but they'll be between about $20-$50 depending on what I get. If I get the truth from a company about their movement, I can make an informed decision; otherwise I get a pig in poke. Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci Absolutely, I get you. And I really find it is incomprehensible that IWC pretend to compete against Omega and cannot put together a decent in-house movement. You should do a video on your construction of watches and buying of parts to assemble them. Very interesting!
Hi Lee, I plan on how to buy and make your own watch from parts. Cheers, Bill
Excellent video Bill. The World of watch collecting is unfortunately all about smoke and mirrors and snake oil salesman, or should that be salespeople. There are many rumours about Chinese parts appearing in Swiss made watches and it will be interesting if proven. Maybe I missed it. At least I know my entry level watches are what the Manufacturers tell me they are. Decorating a basic ETA movement does not make it keep better time or wear more slowly. What’s the old saying? “Can’t make a silk purse from a sows ear”. My most expensive watch is a Tissot. I feel better already.
Hi Ian, as collectors, we need to clear the smoke and mirrors and find great deals! Cheers, Bill
Hi Bill, just put an offer on the brown Moser
Just messing with you🤥🤥🤥
On serious note your options on the Lange 1815 up down, I own 1 Lange which is beautiful simple 3 handed, 39 mm, I was looking at 39 mm with reserve meter, and seconds, situated right and left, 39mm. Visiting London in May to meet my sister and finally get to physically see a few watches, I will definitely try the JLC, need to put on the wrist given the rectangular shape, have a soft corner for JLC given very rich history etc, especially the 28 x 43 ones. Will keep u informed, thanks again
This is the exact point I was making yesterday on another one of your videos and you said I was thinking too much.
Is it worth paying two or three times as much for a "brand name" watch like a Sea-gull instead of another clone watch that has the same movement? Is Sea-gull even a brand name that merits adding 200% or 300%?
Do/should watch cases and dials from some manufacturers make that big an impact on the price?
Sorry TimBee if I blew off a good point you made. The cases I got from Germany were about 10x the cost of the ones from China-they were better quality, but I've had good luck with China cases if I get a good match with the movement, dial and hands. Take care, Bill
Pre-internet it would have cost you months and a small ransom to gather this amount of knowledge and information on what watch companies are up to.
That's true Bob, and you'd have to know the right people! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
I never understood the pricing of RM...
Nobody has... Cheers, Bill
When did eta become a dirty word in the industry? Not so long ago it was a selling point. Did the snobbery start when Swatch Group announced to stop selling eta movements? Now the whole in-house craze has taken over. The marketing departments sell hot air and collectors seem to go along with it.
Sjaak De Vries it's not that ETA has become a dirty word, that's not the point. Here we have companies charging customers three or four times the price of their "cheaper" competitors, but they in fact use the same movement. As if that wasn't bad enough, they openly lie about the inclusion of those shared movements by giving them contrived names. A Ford Fiesta engine isn't a bad engine, especially if you buy it in a Ford Fiesta, however, the levels of satisfaction would shift significantly, if you bought a Ferrari and found out that the Ferrari named engine was more or less the Ford Fiesta engine. Why should I pay $4K for an IWC, when I can buy a Tissot with the same beating heart for 50% cheaper? So, what are you paying for in the end? The brand name? A little additional decoration?......
I understand but I'm pretty sure brands didn't hide this information 10/15 years ago. They proudly said it was eta or valjoux, even engraved it on the caseback. Now you see brands calling it their own caliber. Do they feel pressure to pretend everything is in-house? I even hear the community say Sellita is garbage but they used to be the subcontractor for eta making their movements. I think Swatch Group did good by restricting eta movements to make the industry more creative but the "in-house" hype is becoming a bit nutty.
It is all good as long as the labeling is truthful and honest. Products that are sold or traded need the transparency of being what the seller/trader pronounce it to be...
Yep StellarBlue1; that's all we (watch collectors) are asking; tell us the whole truth about a watch so we can make informed decisions. Cheers, Bill
Thanks Bill, for your time and suggestions
Hi bill, Since it's topic related: What do you think on the omega deville petite seconde with co axial movement but hidden caseback?
Hi Cedric, I'm a sucker for both the co-axial escapement and the Deville Omega style. However, the Deville small seconds has an ETA 2892-A2 based in the Omega 2202 movement. So, knowing that, if you're ok with the George Daniels escapement in an ETA and the price is right, it sounds ok. Here's the one I was looking at: www.omegawatches.com/watch-omega-de-ville-prestige-co-axial-small-seconds-39-mm-46138002 but since they don't make that any more, you have to carefully search on the used market with the reference number. In that way, you're sure to get the model with the co-axial escapement. Good hunting! Kindest regards, Bill
I found one for about 1500 eur so that seems more than fair to me there are companies that charge a hell of a lot more for that movement without the george daniels escapement I think.
Cedric Vercauteren sounds good to me. Good luck with it! Cheers Bill 😎
Now I just have to wait to get my money back from C24 of the previous deal that couldn't go through but I guess no ones gonna beat me to it I hope...
Hey Bill. I made my first purchase since subscribing to this channel, and I hope you will approve. Following your philosophy to get the most horology within my extremely limited budget, I got an H. Moser and Company antique watch in good condition with beautifully cut hands and a 34mm case. It's not high modern horology, but it is a bit of history from a company with a history. The more you know!
Andrew_Owens Great 👍 let me know how you like it! Cheers Bill
I can tell you, it was cheaper than the $26K or more I would have spent for a new one. But what a company!
www.h-moser.com/fr/collection/5900-0200-swiis-alp-watch-minute-retrograde
My vintage Bovet Monorattrapante, like your Moser, is from another rendition of another company than the very high-priced watches of today. Mine has a Valjoux 84 movement from a time when Valjoux was one of the premiere movements. Cheers, Bill
Hi Bill sir ,surely there must be some kind of regulatory authority.I don’t find it misleading it’s outright fraud.one of the best things I’ve learnt from you is the difference in ETA movement and an in house movement.Most are just price gouging us.we should TAG them all and shame them. 👍🏻
Hi Paul, it's tricky.TAG Heuer, for example, has some superior watches with their own movements, but the bulk of their movements are by third parties. ETA has 3 levels of movement, and tags Unitas, Peseux, Valjoux and all of the rest under an ETA label. The reason I think that I don't mind as much as I used to is that it made me learn a lot more about watches and watch collection! Now that I know how to dig to identify the origin of a movement, not only does this help in getting a better watch and watch deal, but it also helped learn more about watches. If I see a watch company advertising ETA, Sellita or Soprod movements, I will trust them a lot more than one that advertises "automatics" without any caliber reference. Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci Hi Sir what I was trying to say .If they are honest and say exactly what’s inside I will be more trusting of that brand.Here in Europe you would not get away selling a tin in a grocery shop with a label saying contains food.And by adding a few blue screws or a coloured cog or gear wheel should not allow the makers to call the movement their own calibration.what do you think sir.👍🏻
Hey Paul, I think you're 100% right. A newly trusted watch company for me is Thomas Ninchritz because they list their movements ( www.uhrenmanufaktur-nuernberg.de/regulateur.html ) For example, their caliber TN 201 is listed as 'Uhrwerk: Kal. TN 201 (Basis UNITAS ETA 6498-1)'; so there's no doubt about the movement base. The site is in German and the prices are in Euros. On the American site where you can buy from a Thomas Ninchritz distributor www.watchbuys.com/store/pc/thomas-ninchritz-watches.asp ), the same watch's movement is listed as 'Movement: Manual mechanical' with no mention of either the movement's name or ETA base. The US has all kinds of laws regulating accurately in labeling. "Manual mechanical" or "automatic" are both accurate, but there's no information one way or the other about the base of the movement. So, while the German site is informative, the American distributor is not. Both are 'honest,' but one leaves out crucial information.Kindest regards, Bill
This is an awesome video. Thanks for making it. You're holding a watch I REALLY like the 19thirty Bovet :) Do you like that watch?
Hi again Anthony...love that Bovet! Cheers, Bill
Love it! And I love you channel! Thank you!
Hey Gene, thanks man! Take care, Bill
In the breitling thy didn’t have the silicon stuff cuz tudor wouldn’t give them all the good stuff ... just some :) ( but it’s also a guess why else would they take out the superior stuff )
You're saying that Tudor withheld silicon from Breathing? Is there a flaw in Brietlings because of this? Thanks, Bill
I like that Fliegeruhr but two things would stop me from buying this watch , one is cash ! Two is I could never bring myself to buying a pilot watch that doesn’t have that big ol onion Crown! Just love that crown ! Best Crown 👑 ever devised !
Hey Pat, the big crown was developed for pilots when their planes were open cockpit and they pilots wore gloves ... big crown allowed winding with gloves on. Watch your six... Bill
I'm late but I must say, terrific video.
Marcia, you're not late! If you're interested in a Bvlgari with its own movement...check out tomorrow's video. Kindest regards, Bill
Fascinating info something akin "to what's under the hood" when purchasing a auto. How can you tell which level of accuracy your movement has, "Four quality (ratings), COSC" is? Have a Invicta COSC Chronograph 2894 Very Nice in spite of being looked down on by collectors and snobs. Some people have lovely Jaguars XKEs with Chevy engines. Both will get you there differently at times. Thank you. Am price conscious but am impressed with engineered watches!
Great analogy NRS-wouldn't want a Ferrari with a Fiat 500 engine... If a collector is really interested in horology-cool watches can be found anywhere! A COSC Invicta! Only a 1%er could have found that! Cheers, Bill
Great video Bill, how long did it take u to make?
Hey Eddie .... it took waaaaaay too long. I didn't mean to go on and take up so much time. Usually I like to keep everything under 20 minutes. Kindest regards, Bill
yes the movement is a big deal but that's not the only cost of the watch, the dial with applied numerals or a case that is hand finished can justify a 5000 USD watch with a sellita or eta movement
Hi Luca, if those features are going to justify the cost of the watch; then there should be no problem in telling buyers what kind of movement they're getting as well. Cheers, Bill
A very educative video, thanks Bill
Thanks Jimmy...Kindest regards, Bill
Excellent video, Bill! Good information and advice.
Hey Enrique, thanks man. I'm glad you liked it. Kindest regards, Bill
Thanks for sharing your knowledge! This is super helpful.
Thanks man, it's my pleasure. Kindest regards, Bill
you can say so for lots of Panerai as well, at least they separate manufacture and non-manufacture models, indeed.
Hey Katt2002! There are a lot of ETA movements I like in Panerais ... especially the ETA/Unitas 6498. My only problem with them and the other companies who give ETA movements a phony name (like Leroy 1050 for an ETA 7001) is that they do not tell the buyer...the collector ... us... what they've done and yet charge us the same amount of money as a high horology model! They don't always group them with separate models either. More and more manufacturers are now revealing what's REALLY in their watches because collectors are communicating more. It's up to us to keep them (moderately) honest. Cheers, Bill
Great video, Sir.
Hey KG, thanks man! Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Great channel, just subbed. That "Navitimer-8" with Tutor mvmt, looks like a Rolex day-date homage. Navitimers are supposed to be chrono watches. I believe IWCs have a higher level of finish than Sinn.
Hi Mechmove, it turns out that Breitling co-developed the Tudor movement. Watchbase.com originally listed the MT5612 as the base on the B01, but now they changed it, removing the reference to the MT5612 altogether. What actually occurred was that Tudor and Breitling worked to develop the B01 / MT5612 together, and now both use it as a base in other movements. Neither gives credit to the other for the mutually development. Go figure... Cheers, Bill
...... Breitling Called their B20 manufacturer... it's the same way how Tudor Called B01 Movement is their inhouse (manufacturer)...I don't see what's the problem. Two companies work together to produce a great movement
Erwin, you are absolutely right. If you look at the base of the B20 in watchbase.com, you will find Tudor MT5612 as the base for the B20. As you rightly point, it was actually a joint development and I agree that they came out with a great movement-or at least a very good one. Neither company says that. All Breitling (or Tudor) would have to do is to note that their caliber was jointly created and reduce the double-talk and bombastic claims about "manufacture" that sounds like they did it all by themselves. Asking for transparency is simply another way of asking for honesty. Kindest regards, Bill
I will take the IWC over the Hamilton. These are not the same watch. What I love about the IWC is the consideration, legibility, lineage, minimalist aesthetics that is harder to do than a watch with toots and whistles. Side by side there is a big visual difference. The finishing of the movement is also very different. IWC does not buy just buy kits and pop them in. They are refinished, replaced, redone to make them more robust. Richard Habring who worked at IWC did wonderful things with the Valjoux 7750 and tweaked the ETA into a better machine. And the 7750 and what he added to the technical vocabulary formed the base of his company.
Great video and very informative. Thanks!
Hey Giang Vu, thanks man! I happy that you liked it. Kindest regards, Bill
You should try and interview Cameron Weiss of Weiss Watches. I think he would be great info for watch movements.
A Swiss luxury watch is $5 worth of material, $200 worth of labour and $5000 worth of hype.
Only $5,000? My watches have far more hyperbole! 🙄 Cheers, Bill
In house isn't always better. There are reasons why 2892 were go to movements for the big brands. Why build something yourself that isn't as good as one you can buy right off the shelf.
Hey Watch Cat, why indeed? If they're so good, why are they not heralded in the ads by the watch companies that use them? (Some do, and I wish they all would.) Would it kill them all to be forthcoming? Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci So there are the three levels of the watch purchasing public. People who know nothing. To them it really doesn't matter what the movement is, quartz or mechanical. Then there are the people who know a little bit. The people that have heard that in house is better. They don't know why it is better but they don't ask any further questions. Then the final level. The people who spend days researching but who make up such a tiny percentage of the whole watch buying community. These people are just going to look at the movement and know what it really is anyway.
What do you think each group is likely to buy? Bill
WatchArtSci The first two groups buy anything and everything. What they buy is not a actually dependent on the watch itself. The last group buys the best even if they can afford something more expensive.
I was thinking that the second group may buy the most advertised and well-known. However, I cannot see why anyone would look at a picture of a celebrity and think it's a good idea to buy a watch on that basis, but they do. Cheers, Bill
Very informative video Bill!
Hey SP, if you ever see an ad for "Genuine Dean's Watch" by FP Journe, I'd be careful if I were you. Cheers, Bill
You mean that FP Journe with with Hello Kitty hands is fake!!!
...I didn't want to have to be the one to tell you....
Be up front: Brellum. You know what you get. And most often great bang for the buck.
Hey John, I don't know much about Brellum other than they're a small independent. What can you tell me about them? Kindest regards, Bill
Oops, I may have been mistaken. I thought the website stated they use the 7750 valjoux movement. I did email them and they quickly told me about the movement being the 7750 (plus their personal touches). So, with that, plus the features, still a great value. I was interested in a DeWitt in the past, but it was like pulling teeth to figure out what was being used. They heavily modified an ETA and it was like 38 jewels, but a solid case back. I would think you'd want to show it off!!! Great vids!!!
Richard mile using outsource movement ?!!!?
Now I’m fair of in-house and not in-house watches
Richard Mille makes his own unique and complicated movements 先生Elmo .... and that's one of the reasons they are so expensive! Cheers, Bill
Absolutely love your videos Bill. So much information. I find it amazing that an ETA 2824 is found in a €300 stainless steel watch and a €3000 stainless steel watch. Just seems crazy to pay €2700 for what is essentially a different case. How much better can one SS case be from another.
Hey Robert thanks man! You're exactly right, but that's what happens and is still happening. You can go to any of those sites with their own movements and 'concealed' ETA and Sellita movements, and you'll find they brag about their own 'in-house' movement while using some deceptive caliber name for the ETA and Sellitas. Some, though, have turned the corner; either by fessing up or only using their in-house movements. I believe that Panerai is now all actual in-house, but after so much deception, it'll be a while before I ever trust them again. Take care, Bill
ETA movements in higher-end watches are a scam, they're essentially the same as lower-end brands.
Sorry, I would have like to have sent you photos. The watch is a chronograph automatic.
Eamonn, see this video: ua-cam.com/video/uVqCTuA-naw/v-deo.html Then you can send pictures for a collection review as well. Cheers, Bill
First things first: this has to be your best video to date.
I give this to you, you want to know what you're paying for. And the practice of making some changes in the movement and branding it as "caliber xx" could be annoying. But all the rush to inhouse thing is pushing the manufacturers to this practice. Is there a cause for an inhouse movement in an enthousiast/hobbyist/accessory/utility timepiece? For a luxury/prestige item, I get it. But for an everyday watch?
The manufacturers use this unnecessary lust for inhouse movement to their own advantage, for product segmentation. At the end, you end up with a piece which is expensive to maintain (and with a long waiting period) instead of a resonable maintenance cost and a same day return.
Hi John, thanks man! I might start looking for good horology in creators like Thomas Ninchritz who use case-fitting Unitas movements ... with nice big movements I can work on! Cheers, Bill
Another great video- lecture
Hey Omer, thanks man! Take care, Bill
Thanks Bill so in a nut shell lots, 54097,54273,54298,54193
Eddie, I just don't know. The JLC is already at $9,000 and with the bump, the buyer pays, $11,250. I think you'd be a lot better off on Chromo24 and negotiation. If you really want a Patek Philippe, I suggest something after 2000; Calatrava or Gondolo, but for that money, you could get an H. Moser et Cie. ( ua-cam.com/video/Sz7ONq5Kekk/v-deo.html ) They have 4 left at collectorstime.com/brands/h-moser--cie at excellent prices new; but don't even think about the one with the brown dial. I'm saving up for that one. Kindest regards, Bill
The "price equals quality fallacy" it's alive and well in the watch world.
Yes, Say It ... it is a fallacy and a lazy collector's path to getting screwed. Take care, Bill
Hey Bill, i really like your vids but I have to disagree here. Its not all about the movement and an inhouse movement doesnt mean best quality (all Seiko movements are inhouse). Case, dial and a strong brand are also important. Its a long tradition in horlogerie to use movements from another manufacturer, even Patek and Rolex did it.
Hi Mad Man, great to hear from you! Yes, case and dial are important along with movement, but brand recognition is Madison Avenue hyperbole and ad budget. If Tudor spends millions on Lady Gaga (whom I happen to like) or Beckham or some other "ambassador" what does that really add to the quality of the watch? Would rather have that money spend on development and design. Kindest regards, Bill
Hey Bill, maybe they could have spent the money better but with any luxury good a strong brand is important.
If the focus is on the brand and not the actual quality of the watch, you'll miss great watches like Habring2 and Lang & Heyne. Brand name is for impressing others; good watches are for impressing ourselves! Cheers, Bill
Its both - brand and quality. And honestly, for me the look is more important than the newest mechanical gimmicks (without wanting to impress anyone). No mechanical watch can be better than +0,5 - +1 s/day and even a well-tuned ETA can do that ;)
It's like politics, never defend yourself, just slam the other guy... It all comes down to marketing, and reputation (which is a result of performance and marketing)
Hey Mark, we'll change all of that to 'Reason & Research' in the watch-buying business! Cheers, Bill
Bill I appreciate your expertise. I've got four steel sports Rolexes I've bought all new over 25 years. With these watches there is huge profit I'm sure, but with these type watches it comes down to resale value issues and the fickleness of people. But there was no guarantee of retained value, for sure. Watch collecting is a fun, but sick, hobby. For me their only real value is for conversation at parties! Asa Baeber said it, the rich buy things that ascend in value, and like art, use it and enjoy it for free while they own it. If I sold my four Rolex models,my Zenith Daytona would likely get me back to zero net money spent after owning them all for 25 years. Achieving that is a kick. It's like answering the question, how old should James Bond be? Is he a 25 year old stud who somehow knows what 50 year old men know? Or is he just a 50 year old man who doesn't have insulin resistance? Either way, it's a fantasy.....
Hi Mark, I think that the key is to use and enjoy them. I don't worry about value retention, and if the watch gains in value that's certainly a plus, A couple of watches I've worn and enjoyed went up in price significantly, but since I have no intention of selling them, it doesn't matter. Same with those that went down or unchanged. Indeed we're in a sick but fun hobby! Cheers, Bill
I agree that watch companies should be transparent about their movement, but I disagree that in-house is necessary better (although the R&D does justify the higher price). I think many watchmakers prefer reliable tried and tested movements to fancy manufacture ones. There is a reason the 2824, 2893, 7001 or 7750 have been around for so long.
Hey, David, about those movements that have been around so long; is it because they're so cheap or so good? If they're so good, why aren't they advertised as the movement or movement base of the watches they're in? I have a watch with a ETA 7001 that was snuck in, and it's ok. Is it high horology, as claimed by the watch mfg? No, but they were perfectly happy charging a price of high horology. As collectors, we've got to stick up for ourselves. The watch companies won't. Kindest regards, Bill
The coolest looking watch historic 1921👌
Thank you Omer. It's among my favorite. Take care, Bill
I'm gonna sit this one out and stick with Seiko.
That's one solution, Bob. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
There is so much more than just the movement.
Hi Bill, there is more than the movement; but if a company conceals the nature of the movement, what other deceptions might there be? If you ever bought a Porsche and instead of a Porsche engine, you discovered a Volkswagen Golf engine, you would be outraged. However, if you buy an IWC watch with an ETA movement base that was not revealed but instead given a caliber indication that suggests a manufactured IWC movement, that's ok? Not to me. If I am offered a watch that clearly indicates an ETA (or any other movement), I have no problem with that. However, to justify deception is only to cheapen the whole fabric of high horology watch collection. Cheers, Bill
good show!
JR, great to hear from you!! I thought you'd moved to a different planet! How's the collection coming? Kindest regards, Bill
Hi Bill, have been busy and not watch shopping much. Collection is pretty much stalled. But am enjoying wearing them of course. I have two NOS Doxa watches that I will take for service soon, will email a photo. They are really nice, manual wind. Rea and I both will be teaching beginning in May, that will give us more budget for our side interests. We also plan to do some videos soon, and have been upgrading our equipment and editing skills. Take care, and keep up the good work. I see 3.5k subscribers now!
I love those Doxas! Especially the divers with the orange dial. What are you going to be teaching? You two would be a great pair to teach watch collection in addition to everything else. Cheers, Bill
Rea will be teaching English to 1st graders. I will teach "Texan" English conversation to University-level students. We both taught a couple of years ago, but quit to travel and just chill out. The Doxa watches I have are vintage, manual wind watches. I will send you pics. I always wanted one of the orange divers, but just never pulled the trigger on one. I missed a few of your shows, and am catching up tonight.
The knuckleheads on ebay pull the same stunts. Their ad will say "MONDIA by ZENITH". ( I emailed Zenith about Mondia; I was told that although Zenith and Mondia were in a holding company together, Zenith NEVER made a watch, or movement, for Mondia. ( As I write this, an ad of this type is currently on ebay! )
Also, another ad will say " 1957 RECORD watch by LONGINES" . As Longines bought the majority interest in Record in 1961, a 1957 Record watch had nothing to do with Longines. ( There is, also, an ad of this type on ebay! )
I get so irritated, I will email the seller to educate them; not that it does any good.
Thanks for exposing their bullshit. Keep up the good work Bill! ( Buy a VOSTOK or ORIENT if you want a non B.S. watch! )
Hey Burkhold, I wish that Ebay would require some modicum of accuracy in their ads. Not as bad as Craig's List, but it will be if they continue to let sellers say whatever they please to sell a watch. In the meantime we collectors must be wary and informed. Take care, Bill
Thanks Sam...and people wonder why businesses need to be regulated... Kindest regards, Bill
Burkhold St. Rudderberg I don’t think contacting the sellers to educate them will work because they know exactly what they are doing. Very risky buying a used watch on eBay sir unless you really know your stuff.good luck 👍🏻
In many cases Paul, your are right. However, some sellers ( let's say they focus mainly on cast iron skillets ) will pick up a watch and sell it on ebay without knowing much at all. They assume, because the dial says BENRUS, that the movement was also made by BENRUS; and that is how they advertise the watch. ( Those of us in the know have reason to question that. )
One rule I use when buying a watch on ebay is: Look at the sellers record of sales; do they sell cast iron skillets most of the time ( and an occasional watch ) or do they sell watches most of the time?
If their main sales are watches, they are without excuse when they make a bogus claim.
As far as calling out the questionable sellers, what if we all did it?
My favorite on eBay are those old LeCoultres sold as Jaeger-LeCoultre.
'Swiss watch company ethics' is an oxymoron.
Unfortunately, that seems to be true for a lot of them. Kindest regards, Bill
So many watch brands sell sw200 for like 3k 😂
Many for $5k and more Dat. Take care, Bill
You have very valid arguments about the movements but have you considered the cost of design and style? You cannot put a price on art/design even though the movement is the same. The Mona Lisa costed pennies for material right? So a Richard Mille isn't just the movement. How much is the look worth and I think that is subjective but honest to understand. For me the pilot watch, the Vacheron the IWC has no design. They are boring. A circle with terrible numbers and straight markers. I mean if you're going to make a 13k or 35k watch try harder! They lack any sense of difference from a $50 for looks and I feel you're getting ripped off not just for the movement but the design or lack of. That's why the Bovet 19Thirty is a nice watch. It looks great and has personality!
Hi Anthony, sure I've considered the cost of case design. Fossil has some dandy ones, but when I buy a watch, I buy the whole watch...and I have a hunch that you do too. Yes, the Bovet 19Thirty Fleurier is special in just about every way-the movement and case were made for one another rather than an off-the-shelf-movement dropped into an off-the-shelf case with an off-the-shelf design.That's what makes it special. I agree that most of the watches by the 'Holy Trinity' and others, not to mention Rolex, are not exactly inspiring except to a certain segment of the watch-buying public-the vast majority. However, there are Vacheron-Constantin watches (like my 1921 and 1972) that are unique, fun and different, as there are among the Patek Philippe, AP and Rolex-love that Cellini Prince! So, we need to consider the whole watch from design to movement to finishing; not just one thing. Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci Hi Bill I think our opinions coincide about the Holy Trinity brands. I just don't find them exciting whenever I go into the stores to browse. I love the Bovet 19Thirty and that's on my list to buy. Also like the Cuervo Y Sobrinos Pirata line with the bronze case which is very unique and has character. What do you think about those watches? Other brands I like are Parmigiani, Louis Moinet, Bovet as mentioned. The dials have a lot more going on that the standard watches but I like interesting cases too which is why I like Parmigiani.
Hi Anthony, I think that Bovet, Parmigiani and H. Moser are all great buys for outstanding watches. At one time I was hopeful about Louis Moinet, but the only thing about the company is the namesake-not the product. As for Cuervo Y Sobrinos, that's a Cuban watchmaker who uses ETA movements, but doesn't charge crazy prices. I too like some of Cuervo Y Sobrinos designs..always on my radar. Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci Thanks Bill for the insight. You're my favourite youtube watch channel now. Luck to have found you. There are 3 models for the Bovet 19Thirty on their website and I can't see any differences? Any idea? You don't think Louis Moinet is good? The prices are expensive. My preference is #1 19Thirty #2 Cuervo Pirata Torpedo which is very affordable at around $3500. Just contemplating weather to save up and get #1 first. But there are more priorities in life then a $12k watch haha.
By the way, the Parmigiani Tonda 1950 Lune is a beautiful watch. Is that what you have?
Anthony, the Parmigiani Tonda 1950 Lune is a wonderful watch, but I do not have it. I wouldn't mind having it. Of the three Bovet 19Thirty Fleurier models ... one is Arabic numbers,; one is Roman numerals; and one is Chinese characters. I got the one with Arabic numerals. Let me know which one you decide on! Good hunting, Bill