In real life accountability caused family disfunction fighting over who should held accountable .and not looking for solutions .and making them unable to account for all factors. Holding yourself to own standards is more important
They should watch to "Maquia: When the Promised Flower Blooms" I sometimes can't even understand the emotions behind what's going on, maybe cause I'm a boy. But I am sure the message is the idea of "The meaning of being a mother" and it tackles so many other aspects and so much going on in the movie. It's really a movie for mothers, and the heartbreaking moments; it’s some real powerful and complex stuff. Like the NOs AND YESs at extreme moments. It’s honestly a Shakespeare's tragedy. “It’s my Hibiol.” (dub and sub are both great) 😊 👍
Suggestions for Toxic or Not: Stanley Kowalski from Street Car named Desire. Phyaically and psychologically Abusive, controlling, a possible (probable) r****t, seems like an open and shut case. Danny Zuko from Grease. Controlling, manipulative, doesn't know how to take no for an answer, forces significant other to change her entire personality to be with him.
sorry this is off topic, but I’ve never been this early to a vid before and noticed you responding to comments 😂 family counseling request: Everybody Love Raymond………. unless it doesn’t quite hit your demographic 😂 I grew up with it ☺️👍 would really help me (if you’ve done it/patreon let me know!)
The most unrealistic thing about Andy's boyfriend is he had no idea what it was like to work for a Demon of a boss, even though he is a Sous-Chef in early 2000s NYC.
I don’t know how he has time to be hurt and have time at night to do things. All the shows I’ve watched about restaurant work is that they’re always working.
This. Chefs could be (and frankly still are) absolutely awful, especially to a just cook on the line. There’s no way he hadn’t had at least one boss he hated but yearned approval from. There’s zero empathy.
Doug is the only one of Andy's friends who is consistently supportive. He is excited for her when she gets the job, recognises the possible benefits and happy for her when she gets to go to Paris. Very much a Doug apologist
I think a big reason that people want to point out any perceived toxicity from her friends or boyfriend is because in the realm of the movie, the lesson is entirely Andy’s to learn when, as y’all have pointed out, neither side is perfect . But while we see Andy come to some realizations at the end we don’t really get to see her boyfriend or friends behave differently by the end of it.
Yes. Look, people are messy and therefore relationships are messy sometimes. But she seems to be the only one who learns that her messiness is hurting people (and the only one of the friend group who gets called out on a regular basis) and she's the one who has to take accountability, whereas ... the rest of them just don't. That blows.
Oh wow, it's almost like the movie is about ANDY and ANDY's character arc and ANDY's relationship with Miranda, and Andy's friends and boyfriend who get a collective 10 minutes of screentime are all just set dressing to Andy's story. It's almost like this movie about Andy's story was trying to tell that specific story in 1.5 hours and the writers and directors didn't think "You know what would really make this movie fantastic, is if we give Andy's 1-dimensional friend characters arcs and personal growth of their own." Good god.
@@GoddoDoggo For someone all up in all the comments telling other people that they don't know how anything works for wanting some form of resolution, you're pretty dense. They wouldn't need a character arc, just a handful of lines of dialogue or even some looks of introspection. The friends can be forgiven by the film, but her boyfriend is a pretty big part. He's basically the same person at the end when Andy has had an entire journey, and the audience is just told that's okay. He doesn't have to be accountable for the way that he acted because she was in the wrong and she changed, but they were both in the wrong. Just reworking the end a little would have given that a much more satisfying resolution, even if that meant showing that sometimes change can split people up (and that's okay). People aren't being ridiculous just because they have different opinions to you.
Here's the issue I have with the hot potato phone scene: when Andy storms off, instead of looking guilty (if surprised) at realizing they crossed a line, her friends share a look of "jeez, what's wrong with her?". It doesn't feel like _they_ feel like they did an oopsie - more like they were just joking around and Andy's overreacting.
I didn't really see it that way? I thought they were confused because she's been the one complaining about her job and boss the most. Her outburst made them surprised. You don't have to jump to a negative conclusion like that.
@@zopiranha3871 No. In this scene, Andy made it very clear that there is more to Prada magazine than plain aesthetics. Watch again. They chose not to listen and glisten over the gifts she got them. Andy showed growth and her friend's showed hypocrisy. The main comment is right, they looked at her without taking any accountability for stepping her work boundaries. Even if this scene did not show Andy's end of her job mockery, they chose to hot potato her very stressful job like it's a joke. It is still stepping over boundaries.
@zopiranha3871 i disagree because they literally just played hot potato with her work phone, while her boss is calling her. You'd have to be a child to think that's funny and not understand why she's justifiably upset. Even if you dislike your job, and complain about it, it's still your job. They know Miranda is temperamental and could possibly fire Andi for missing that call.
I saw someone say on Twitter that the fakest thing about this movie is all the free time Nate has! He's a chef in NY! He more than anyone else should understand Andy's crazy schedule!
@@UnashamedCaliforniagirleven if it is the graveyard shift, even if he's just a line cook, that's easily 10+ hours a day. It's not just cooking when the restaurant is open, it's the hours of prep they do after closing, the hours of prep they do before they open. Like a chef, who is trying to make it into fine dining like he is, would be working insane hours. Weekends, holidays, gone.
I agree. Everyone knows that when you have a call or message that is work related, is hands off. You don't play with someone's livelihood. And as adults, Andy's friends should have known that, they are not children. Would they have done that if Nate's boss called for a double shift at the restaurant or Lily at the art gallery?
that and nate saying "like this job was forced on you." HE KNOWS this job is her best shot at getting the job - no, the CAREER - she ACTUALLY wants so in a way, yes, it WAS forced on her. because what's the alternative? what is he actually asking her to do? quit this job, which will become a giant black mark on her resume, and pay the bills with pole dancing instead because somehow that equals "integrity" to him but runway doesn't.
@@elenacosta5634 I've never heard of being fired for missing a phone call for 10 seconds. Usually people should assume that if it takes time to pick up your phone, they're prolly in the WC or cooking or anything else. Their only fault was for being so slow to notice that she wasn't in on the fun - which I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that everyone here does from time to time, whether you realise it or not. Though I don't agree with Jono that calling them assholes in such a situation is bad, it's just calling out someone on their behaviour while dumping her stress on them for something that they caused themselves - AKA they totally earned the insult. The fact that they all went quiet after that means they got the message.
@@banner156 In a regular job with a decent boss, you wouldn't lose your job over a missed phone call, you're right. But this is Miranda, a toxic boss. Andy showed anxiety over always needing to answering her calls. Also, Lily was saying she was gonna answer the phone, which would have made Andy look unprofessional. But of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours.
@@banner156also remember who Andy’s boss is. A lot of ground work is placed in the movie about how awful Miranda is. It’s completely plausible that she could be fired if she didn’t pick up the phone.
Main argument I would put forth on the 'toxic' actions of her friends is, after taking the hot potato phone too far is that they do it knowing Andy is already stressed by the job, they don't apologise after pushing a joke too far, AND they don't actually thank Andy for the gifts she gives them. Maybe its just the brit in me, but Andy calling them a-holes in that moment was 100% valid a reaction.they don't apologise after pushing a joke too far.
It takes seconds to apologise or even gesture an apology and frankly, it shouldn't take an adult to be called out to realise you don't take anyone's work phone away. If my friends ever did anything of the sort, not only would I tell them to sod off, I would reestablish boundaries with the warning that the next strike is 'out' of my life.@glockenrein
Absolutely. I think the worst part is actually right after she takes the phone back and they can see she is genuinely upset, so there's no excuse anymore for them not realizing it didn't land as a joke, but they just laugh, and that is not just disrespectful but is actual bullying.
I think the reason that the phone scene annoyed me so much is that they are basically mocking the very job that allowed her to give them thousands of dollar's gifts. It's not just insensitive it's ungrateful and rude
they are mocking her job cause andy herself is mocking her job. she literally does it every time and her friends are jumping in thinking they are being supportive not really thier fault andy is in denial of how much that job is important to her
ANDY is the one who mocks her job to her friends ALL THE TIME. If one of your friends was constantly moaning about how much they hated their job and how stupid everyone is there, and you replied saying "Yeah you're right, screw your job!" would you not be pretty shocked and annoyed when they reacted really defensively?
Yes! God it annoyed me EVERY time! If a friend gave me an expensive gift because their boss didn’t want it, the LAST thing I’m going to do is go, “yeah screw them!” What kind of logic is that? Also, just because Andy makes fun of her job doesn’t mean other people get to. To me, it’s like The Sibling Argument. Only *I* can make fun of my siblings and call them every horrible name under the sun. Anyone else tries, it’s offensive and grounds to get punched
@@itamongush3076 People conveniently forget that part. She mocks her job, but then turns around and drops to her hands and knees as soon as Miranda's presence is even hinted upon. She is portraying a certain character during almost any interaction with the other people, except when Miranda is somehow directly involved. It's sending very mixed messages to these other people in her life. Jono mentioned this multiple times; she's not being honest with her friends, Nate, or even Herself about her true feelings around this job. If she had portrayed a greater air of seriousness for the work itself from the moment she started genuinely taking it seriously, much of these interactions could have gone way differently. That being said - nobody touches my phone without my permission. Absolutely. Nobody. But perhaps this is standard shenanigans for Andy's friend circle? I certainly can't get behind that - people throwing my phone around would immediately send me into anxiety overload.
Andy, an award-winning student journalist at Northwestern, moved to NYC to become a professional journalist. She was ALWAYS ambitious, and her early working years were always going to be exactly what we see on screen. Exchange the fashion industry for the news and she might have gotten a less toxic boss, but her role would have been no less demanding. Perhaps Andy's friends didn't understand her from the beginning.
A few years ago I went to study abroad. A dream of mine for years. The friends who were happy for me were my true friends, those pissed off and grumpy I wouldn't be around as much for them signed red for me, and they proved crappy friends not too long after.
As a sociology student I am asking myself if we are so more unforgiving because it's a woman who thrives in work instead of a man. We are so used to see men living for their careers while their wifes usually see their husbands less than their work collegues. Yes, those relations still have their hardships, but we are way more forgiving if men are busy with work because it's for their career. But if a woman is doing it she is not hardworking, but neglecting. That's actually proven by divorces back in the days, where a man can seperate because the women is not fullfilling her "marital work".
As a man, We are way too forgiving of men who do this. I tell friends all the time that they need to carefully consider career choices based on the impact that will have on their family, and then have them be surprised when their relationships suffer because they choose to take a job with longer hours and lots of travel. Sure, someone on the financial margins needs to take what they can get and make do. But too many men feel like being successful and making more money for their family justifies any commitment, and that's just not true. I've been telling my manager for a decade that I won't accept "more hours" as a requirement. If I work long hours this month, I am taking time next month. There are just too many non-work things I care about. Andy is starting out a career and trying to get something highly competitive. She is planning on doing this for a year. But that is STILL incredibly hard on relationships. I know guys in investment, legal, or medical fields whose marriages don't survive the first year because of stuff like this. But you're RIGHT. When a guy does it, as a culture we tend to forgive it more than when a woman does it. And that's wrong. In both directions, we need to understand that people have needs from their partner and that spending all of your time working might mean we are not fulfilling those needs.
@@kenamelio4596 Here's also the counterargument for all of what you said. It's also largely expected for the man to do it because if he doesn't, the wife/girlfriend will often-times just walk away, because they're losing that income that he was making or wasn't making because he did not put in the hours. Hell, I'm watching my SO right now kill himself to get money gathered to build a house for the two of us. I can't do anything because I'm not actively living with him yet, and he can barely afford any of it due to the high cost of rent, etc.
I agree with you in life, but in this particular genre of movies I'm not so sure, I feel like the "working all the time not showing up for his girlfriend's birthday" is the bad guy in every romance movie. In a gender-reversed adaption, I'm not sure the public would be much more sympathetic towards "male Andy"
I think the reason people feel like Nate is so toxic is because the film language of the movie kind of paints him as 100% in the right. Like, he is never shown to apologize for his behavior or any of his sniping. He comes across as if he was always right, and Andy just had to come around to it, and they get back together in the end after a bunch of self discovery and growth on Andy’s part, and seemingly none of that on Nate’s part. It feels unbalanced, and it rankles, especially as a woman, bc we are societally expected to always be the one that sacrifices and forgives, and to never been the burden on the relationship. Like if TDWP was gender swapped it would feel hella different.
Where your not wrong we as don't see things from his side. This isn't like some love stories where we get both sides of the lovers' story. When you look at a story from one side, it can feel that way. Like everyone is against the main character. We don't see the other sides' pain. Let's be honest how would you feel if you were him dealing with what he is dealing with let's not forget she is flirting with another while in a relationship. A guy she sleeps with almost as soon as she splits from her boyfriend. which shows she was emotionally cheating. In some way, her boyfriend is right.
Perfectly expressed. The movie portrays it as if his and her other friends treatment of her was unimpeachable decade their concerns were well founded. No one ever apologized to her for basically shaming for basically having a demanding job. Sure, she lost herself a little in it and had to recenter. But, it wasn’t her boyfriend or her friends place to berate her and ridicule her for it.
Yes! The ending is what feels so off to me. I think both Nate and Andy do a bad job at communicating what they need and how they might move forward through these changes. So to just have the ending be, Andy quits her job and they get back together, it doesn't resolve any of their issues. Are they actually going to communicate with each other now? If Andy wants to invest in her career, will Nate be able to support her through that? Who knows! Because we didn't actually see their relationship grow.
I'm not an expert on toxicity, but the phone scene is just hard to watch. Andy is clearly panicking, pleading with them to return it. If one of my friends was yelling "no no no" over and over again with that facial expression and tone of voice, I'd stop whatever I was doing to them immediately. But her friends never stop. Andy makes them stop by grabbing her phone. The problem isn't that they could have gotten her fired. It's that they pay no attention to her very obvious distress.
Are you telling me you have NEVER in your entire life mistakenly taken someone's behavior as "messing around" when they were actually being serious? Or got so caught up in a moment that you didn't immediately react in the best way? Or didn't realize until much later that you did or said something crappy? Because if you're claiming that, I do not believe you. Yes, Andy's friends acted in a crappy, impulsive way during the phone scene. That does not make them "toxic." If it does, then literally every human on the planet is "toxic," including you.
I agree - she just bought them gifts and she's clearly very distressed and they don't stop. To me that is a bit of asshole thing to do. She could've gotten fired over it. The stakes are high for her and they still don't feel they were wrong when she walks off - they laugh at her. Cruel imo.
Playing Hot Potato with Andie's mobile wasn't an intervention - it was ABSOLUTELY disrespectful. If I disagree with a friend's choices, I don't sabotage those choices; I try to discuss my concerns like an adult. If she still disagrees with me, it's her life. Then I'm the one who gets to decide if I still want to be friends. But I don't force her hand.
Except it's not "sabotage" cause friends aren't omnipotent beings. People don't generally get fired for not immediately taking a phone call, why would the friends assume the consequences would be so severe. Also, as already given in context, they're not exactly the most mature people and are pretty used to ribbing eachother
I agree, it was disrespectful. But, to these friends, this is something that is commomplace, they've probably done this exact thing to Andy before and it has been a funny joke. Now that Andy is working for the devil herself, this phone call is a huge deal, and her friends don't get that yet. It's a situation where her friends fell back on tradition, and that was a huge no-no in this case.
@@finnpeterson4335 I completely agree with this take. It's obvious that they intend no disrespect to her here. It's a common thing for them. And the focus of the joke is Miranda, not Andy. But things have changed and they didn't realize. They were surprised when she was upset. They should apologize for overstepping, but to be fair, they didn't realize that's what they were doing. People really aren't omniscient.
@@ivanehtnoij6243 Her boss is Miranda. They KNOW this. And Nate specifically already knows how stressed she is about it. And on top of that her female friend wanted to pick up which would have put Andy in a very uncomfortable spot and made her look unprofessional. Like you'd have to be an utter idiot to not understand how this can indeed get her fired. Especially since she is new at the job. How are people too damn dense to understand that.
@@finnpeterson4335I’ll start this by saying these are fictional people in a made up story, so anything I say is also an assumption, but I find it interesting you’ve decided they’ve probably done this with Andy before the job so this was normal, lighthearted behavior before. It’s an interesting take, and makes them less caricatures of shitty friends, which is what I’ve always seen them as. To me, what I see is Andy becoming enmeshed in a world that not only she looked down on and made fun of, but her bf admitted to doing with her and presumably so did her friends. I think they all saw her becoming the thing they all made fun of without considering the sacrifice she knew she needed to make to get where she wanted to go. To me, this reads as Andy growing, and her friends staying the same. And because of that, Andy became part of the group of people they all at one time looked down on and made fun of. There seems to be a loss of respect towards Andy and an inability or unwillingness to understand what is happening with her. The frustrating thing in this film is that the onus is entirely on Andy to be humbled and realize her wrongs, but no one else owns up to also being dicks and realizing they needed to be more understanding of where she was at.
So I was in Andy's position twice in my life. First time as an office coordinator and second time as a PA to a General Manager. I was stressed, I always had to carry my phone with me, I had to cancel on my friends and family many times. And you know how my BF and my friends reacted to this? They showed support. My boyfriend prepared little snacks for me to enjoy during the work day, helped with running errands when I was too stressed, told me every day that I was amazing at my job and hobbies. He knew how stressed I was - and decided not to add to it, and that I have to come to the conclusion of this chapter in my life on my own without him nagging all the time. This is why I can't stand Nate. Because I've seen how it should be, and that I would have snapped if my boyfriend had this attitude.
Everyone is different. I don’t think it’s reasonable to always expect the people in your life to be so tolerant of not being a priority. Not that you were a bad person for having a busy life, but sometimes people do genuinely feel disconnected and in this case I feel like there could have been better communication. It’s not on Nate to just suck up his feelings and wait indefinitely until it gets better though.
@@stephenpaul668 Thing is though, Andy said she was only going to have this job for a year so she'd be set in the industry (so Nate definitely would not have had to wait indefinitely) and there was never any point in the movie where Nate showed understanding or sympathy. It was evident how time-consuming this job was for Andy and how high stress it was for her so if he really wanted to be a good partner, he'd be patient and understand that the job isn't like anything Andy's had before. No one's saying Nate needs to suck up his feelings, he get the point across how he feels multiple times in the movie (very tersely, at that) but again he rarely showed a semblance of caring or understanding towards Andy's position.
@@dane3183 , asking someone who needs their partner to be present to deal with a year of essential absenteeism isn't fair either. And he also has no good reason to believe it will only be for a year. They absolutely need to have a conversation about their paths and decide whether they are still aligned, and to do so without blame or shame. As pointed out in the video, at the start of the movie he very clearly showed indications of caring and listening. But he wasn't able to handle the absence and unreliability that her new job required. And jobs like that absolutely end relationships for people all the time in all kinds of industry. It is something to talk very carefully with about current and potential partners and make sure you understand how or if you can manage it relationally.
I think that the root of Andie's problems with her boyfriend/friends is that they think they are "too good" for the fashion world, and don't respect as a industry at all (but they like the benefits, like we saw with the presents). That's why Andy struggles to accept who she's becoming and tries to hide it, and that's why everyone is always praying on the "old Andie".
I was scrolling down to see if I should point this myself. Andy eventually becomes more humble and start to respect her cowokers taking the job seriously. But her friends are never taking amoment to say "sorry I should not look down at what you do." If they were a high school group they will be the kind who says "stop! people are going to think you really like to study. Since when you like school? are you turning into a nerd?" Actually I like that. A Devil's Wear Prada versions, where Andy is only getting a recommendation to go to university if she join the math team. If we follor the same arc she should quit the team before the final competition and tell her ex "sorry, I should have continued party with you guys, even the nights before a test. I truly lost myself".
@@jessicav931 Even though it's a great comparison, I don't think it would really work. It is essentially the same thing, but I think because it's about her career and she's an adult it's just viewed differently by people. Like I don't think anyone would question doing something you hate in order to put yourself into a better position as a child, because that's just expected of you. You're probably treated like an idiot if you don't do that thing, whatever it is. "Think of your future!" But for some reason there's such a stigma over changing yourself for your career, like it's some horrific betrayal of all of the other aspects of your life. There is no real difference and yet there is, it's so weird.
@jessicav931 Andy lost her sense of self and lost her integrity in this movie. I think that was the main issue. I wouldn't say that's a fair comparison. He said it himself, it wouldn't matter as long as she did it with integrity.
@@beverlyrodriguez3456 While Nate said that, I don't think he was being honest with himself there. He was constantly making fun of the fashion industry, and didn't like that she was no longer bashing them.
I feel like this movie shows how a Toxic individual like Miranda can also negatively affect those around her and how it affects those individuals in their personal relationships.
Or just how a toxic work environment in general and over-emphasis on work can drag down your friends and family. Movies in this era have a lot of anti-work, pro-family propaganda in them and while I get it, even as a kid I always thought it was kind of... immature. Yes, work is not everything and family is important, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to be successful. Some people find joy in their work. If that's the kind of person Andy is, there's nothing wrong with being supportive of that, but of course at the same time there is a case to be made about how the real world works and how people can get trapped in their jobs and neglect their families. I don't think *this* movie does a good job of making the case that a job isn't everything, because the supporting characters are being a little petty, but I do think overall the idea is fine. I know it kind of sounds like I feel the opposite, but it's just that I feel movies do a shit job of emphasizing the problems with work culture. The main character who works too much is always criticized while his family lives in a two-story house with a massive dining room. How do you people think you got all of that? They always take for granted what their family member has worked for and seem to want them to get fired from their job just so they can attend an after-school event. It's bizarrely-handled in almost every movie. Bad writing, I guess.
@@LucifronzThe movie is fascinating because on one hand, Miranda is so demanding, but there is one scene that doesn’t involve Andy at all. The scene was brainstorming session, where Miranda scoffed at redundancy (florals for spring), yet is genuinely pleased with Nigel when he has a great idea (Zac Posen sculptural suits photographed at the Noguchi Gardens.) Why would the filmmakers dedicate screen time to this moment when it doesn’t involve Andy at all? I think they wanted to show that while she’s a real taskmaster, Miranda is really good at her job and is passionate towards Runway’s mark on the fashion industry.
@@Lucifronz here's the thing: this movie came out in 2006. we've had financial crisis on top of financial crisis ever since. no one gets two-story houses anymore (or even just the smallest sense of accomplishment), working demanding jobs for shit pay that barely covers rent. this movie aged in a really unfortunate way. in our current time, the real life Mirandas are reaping the benefits, while every Andy slaving under their company can't even afford to get their stress-induced illnesses checked out by a doctor. edit: and in regards to having a choice, which is what the boyfriend and the friends seem to bring up as criticism; movie Andy doesn't really give the impression that she'd be in serious trouble without the job. a real life Andy doesn't have the luxury of choice... take the job with the shitty boss or face poverty. again, this movie didn't age well.
‘Lying to them and herself because she doesn’t want to admit she likes her job now’ - my perspective is that she feels she *cant* be honest with her friends. Any time she tries, talking with excitement about her job, she gets sneers and jeers and hostility. She’s not “betraying their morals” by being excited by/enjoying being good at her new job. She’s being punished for going against the group culture of denigrating her workplace and job type. Rather than open their minds, they try to stomp her back into their little box. That’s what makes them toxic friends.
Even if they're not toxic over that, they are incredibly immature and closed minded. I often think reflecting on it that they feel threatened by her success.
My thoughts exactly. Feels like she is not admitting the changes out of fear of losing people she loves, and this can be a very powerful motivation to hide things not only from others, but also from yourself. Like she could be realizing that her sexual orientation is not what she thought it was, and her friends kept telling homophobic jokes.
@@somethingcloudy_somethingclear tbf it's more like if Andy was more than happy to tell homophobic jokes with her friends and then starts realizing she's not straight and feels like she can't be honest with them because they keep telling homophobic jokes even when she's kinda trying to put feelers out that it's not all bad. Also personal aside but your hypothetical scenario is why I broke things off with my one friend. People feel way to comfortable telling homophobic jokes.
This is a laughably bad and shortsighted reading of their relationship. They aren't being toxic in the slightest. It's 100% true that Andy is not being honest with either them or herself. Her friends are not as understanding as they could be, but that's not inherently toxic. They're ALL in a position of needing to grow and become better.
I just rewatched The Devil Wears Prada last week and I don't know if I'm wrong or not but, besides hurting because Nate misses and loses Andy in a way, I also senses that he is kinda jealous of Andy, that Andy is thriving and growing
I don't see it at all. At some point we have to question ourselves if we're not projecting our views of men and relationship onto characters, since I personally found his pettines start resurfacing as her job started becoming more important and taking more of her time that she would usually be spending with him. If he was jealous, then he was jealous of Andy spending more time on her job than with him.
Agreed. I can’t put my finger on it (haven’t watched the movie recently) but I do remember getting the same feeling that he’s resentful/jealous that she’s managed to thrive despite the toxicity around her. And then he uses what makes her insecure (things like she’s all about the looks and sacrificing her original dreams of becoming a “serious” writer … which, btw, people can change their dreams & opinions) to hurt her because it makes him feel powerful/macho.
I still don't get the Emily thing? Emily is literally UNABLE to go. She is in the hospital. Why is it such an issue that Andy steps in and goes instead? Miranda is going to need an assistant, so why is it an issue that Andy is going?
It's an issue because: 1. Miranda had chosen Andy to go to Paris before Emily was in the accident- but hadn't told Emily herself yet. 2. Emily probably sensed that she might not be chosen to go to Paris and was working extra hard to try to keep in Miranda's good graces, and that's when she got into the accident and had to go to the hospital. 3. Then, when Andy visited her, Andy told her that Miranda had picked her and not Emily to go. She knew she couldn't go due to the injuries, and now Andy makes it worse by confirming that Miranda hadn't chosen her anyway- so her efforts to try to work hard were not going to be rewarded, she was rushing around and got into the accident "for no reason" and basically she's just mad at Andy too, for being newer at the job and better at it than her. So maybe most of those things are reasons that Emily should be mad at Miranda, but she misplaces that anger onto Andy. (And it's understandable. It's easier to be angry at Andy instead of the all-powerful Miranda who can fire her and keep her from getting other jobs on a whim. She has to behave for Miranda, but can be mad at Andy all she wants.)
@@crazybiogeekOoooh, I just asked the same question in another comment, thank you for explaining. My only pushback would be that Andy says she was chosen, but I didn't understand it as her confirming it was decided before Emily's accident, just sating something that happened because there was no denying it, so I feel like it is even less her fault
This is entirely off-topic, but I actually cried laughing when I noticed the Bella and Edward poster that says, "My magic sex will fix broken boy." 😂 Y'all are incredible.
@turnipcrazy4602 they are rebooting the book series into an animated TV series (because, money). If they lean into the absurdity of what those books actually are, then I will most definitely be watching!
Listened to the whole video, and I have to disagree. Asshole was the exact right word to use. Her friends were being assholes. In the telephone scene, they were completely ignoring her autonomy and distress. That is the kind of behavior that would make me lose trust in someone.
I think in the scene where they were playing "phone hot potato," the friends were still acting on old patterns and not realizing how legitimately stressed Andy was. They thought "we'll just do the thing we always do" and did it, but no one was checking in with how Andy wasn't playing along this time and was just getting more and more upset. It's a form of groupthink I've seen happen in friends groups, and it sucks. (It's not necessarily their FAULT, but it's a matter of inattention that can lead to real hurt.) If anything, I think if there had been an honest, meaningful conversation after that scene, that things might have gone differently for the friends group.
Honestly, I think that was needed throughout the film: honest and open conversations. Starting with Andy. I would’ve sat down with Nate and said, “While my job is very stressful, I decided to ingratiate myself into the culture of my job to better perform. And I’m doing that by adapting my wardrobe.” (Nate admitted that himself; the outfit Andy wore to the interview was not it.) And look what happened? After she stopped being so judgmental about the fashion world, Miranda, the clackers, etc, she started performing well at her job. She started gaining confidence. She got in contact with a guy who could help further her writing career, which is what she wants to do! Now as times goes on and her job expects more of her, I think Andy should’ve gone to Nate and expressed how upset she feels that her job is pulling her away from him. Maybe they could’ve set aside a little bit of time every day for the two of them. Sit and talk, have a little home cooked meal, rant session about their jobs, etc. and she could’ve reminded him that it was only for a year. And from there Nate could’ve decided if he was willing to stick it out with her for a year knowing how demanding her job was. I agree with Dr. Decker that Andy needed to be more honest with herself, particularly when Miranda asked her to deliver the book (she was addressed by her name!) and when she was able to pull of Miranda’s impossible task. Also, she could’ve told Nate and her friends about Christian A LOT earlier. It would’ve made things easier.
Well to be fair there's no way to have that conversation because she left to immediately contact her boss. But I agree overall with your assessment. They were trying to be playful and wound up being thoughtless by following old patterns without thinking about how Andy was actually reacting this time.
That’s what I’ve always thought. It wasn’t malicious and I don’t think they expected or wanted the outcome. I think Andy legitimately changed a lot as a person and the others weren’t expecting it.
@@DM-nw5lu yes i think they had heard her say it out loud that her job was stressful, but up until that moment they hadnt really seen it or internalised it yet
I think there's also something to be said about the environment that Andy's friends and boyfriend created; how can they expect her to be honest and proud about this newfound passion when they "used to make fun of the fashion girls, and now [she's] one of them". She's coming into this with a fear of judgement from the people who are meant to be supporting herm on top of all the stress and fear of failure from her job. (Also that line about the 'fashion girls' irks me for its sexism)
When describing playful banter among friends you mentioned consent as a major part of it, so I was surprised you didn't mention that in the hot potato phone scene, Andie was not consenting to that banter which inherently changed the dynamic of it.
Build your case. Okay, Nate is a chef. As someone who's worked the line almost as long as Jono has been a therapist, let me speak on that experience a little. You don't get birthdays. Or holidays. Or weekends or evenings. It's not uncommon to work 13-16 hour days, six days a week. Your schedule is different to almost everyone else around you. You miss anniversaries. You miss graduations. Valentines day? Don't even think to ask. Most days, you wake up with only enough time to grab coffee. As soon as you step in the door, you start *moving* and prepping food like a crazy person. You're running up and down stairs from the kitchen to the walk-in stressing about getting everything you'll need for the night assembled, portioned, seasoned, held at the right temperature. 4 hours pass and you would swear it's only been one. You still haven't really eaten anything. You've tasted a lot of things, then added more salt. Maybe you finished your prep in time to actually eat "family" dinner before service. Most likely you didn't. It's probably fried. The first time you stop moving is the calm right as you open. Standing in front of the grill in this hot, HOT kitchen, waiting for a noise that would wake you out of a dead sleep, because the ticket printer has a very particular sound. Then the madness really starts. You have to coordinate your stations dishes from five different 4 top tables that were just fired with every other stations chef and ensure that it comes up at the same time despite everything having a wildly different cook time from everything else. Which means getting barked at and responding to the only God present in this forsaken place, your expo. You work at a furious pace. There's going to be anywhere from 200-400 covers tonight, like there is every night, and there are only six of you. You slam water because everything you've tasted is salty or rich, and it is just so effing HOT. Anywhere from 90-110 degrees behind the line, always, and you're constantly moving like some kind of graceful tornado. Service winds down, and you realize you haven't gone to the bathroom in hours. You still have 10 minutes before you can go, though. Those last two tables just got fired, and you've got 3 steaks and a duck before you can even think of walking out of the kitchen. Then comes station breakdown and writing tomorrow's prep list. Lucky for you, the pastry chef couldn't serve all of the honey rolls tonight, and there's one up for grabs. Even after all that, you better hope that you didn't break the aioli, or burn the parsnips, or make a mess of the soufflé. Because your sous chef will ride you. HARD. Produce, produce, produce. Faster, but with perfection. "Step it up, or you won't have a job anymore!" "Get it together!" "In any other kitchen, you'd be thrown out for such a stupid mistake!" All of it thrown at you with more expletives than you care to tally. Your only response had better be "yes, chef". You go home famished and exhausted. You shower, maybe eat whatever is quickest and easiest, and probably pass out with still wet hair. You wake up really hungry, but only having time for coffee. You do this for probably around $14.00 an hour. No health insurance, and certainly no sick days. It can still be incredibly rewarding. But it's also a lot of long hours for not particularly good pay at the cost of your body and your social life. Standing on concrete for that long will wear down your knees and back, the dark circles are a recurring feature, and your waking hours are mostly consumed by the industry. A guy that works that job, in New York City of all places, should have some kind of grip on how hard and all consuming work can be. If he had the chance to work a Michelin starred restaurant for one year, a job that would guarantee almost any chef job he wanted in the future, he would absolutely take it, no matter what. Even knowing that if he screws that job, he has a very real chance of being blackballed in the industry (which wasn't a point you guys brought up, but is also very present in the film). Make Nate an accountant, an IT tech, ANYTHING but a chef. Because having him belong to one of the toughest industries for work-life balance while simultaneously having him complain about his girlfriend spending too much time at work is giving "good for me, but not for thee". It's not uncommon for women to be expected to be the ones who move for their partners career opportunities. To sideline their own careers to help further their partners. To dial back on their careers to help support their partner or the family. To an audience, particularly to the target audience of this film, it can seem as though Nate's work, being important to him, is treated with respect. While Andy's work being important to her is met with ridicule and passive aggressive behavior. Well, until the perks of Andy's job make an appearance anyway. Because it did not escape my notice that the "same Andy, better clothes" scene got cut off right before Nate decided "you still working there is actually okay with me, for now, as long as you're wearing THOSE better clothes". Andy makes some poor choices and excuses, but Nate?! He eventually starts to meet not just the job she works, but Andy as a person, with straight up condescension. He literally thinks less of and looks down on her for doing something in her industry that he would've jumped at, without question, in his own. That's what makes him a terrible, toxic boyfriend. The implicit hypocrisy coupled with the emotional constipation and all the communication skills a of 4 year old throwing a tantrum in the cereal aisle.
In the book Nate is a teacher which would make more sense with his attitude, as there's clear of times and it's less career driven. (not saying it isn't a stressful job, it sure is).
@@silentsaturn7604 He'd have no grounds to complain as a teacher, either. Teachers have to take work home with them all the time. They have to prepare every lesson they teach. In corporate terms, teachers do the job of project manager, presenter, consultation, and HR on a daily basis. It is physically and mentally taxing, although they do get nights and weekends off...unless you have an extracurricular event, or a bunch of papers to grade.
IT techs have on-call and are occasionally expected to put out fires at 4AM before rushing to fix the Doctor/Lawyer/CEO's printer when the office opens 3 hours later, followed by making sure the company conference room doesn't bug out for their symposium at 6 that evening
I think something our vloggers are forgetting is that if she botched the job with Miranda her career could be ruined and she could be blacklisted. No. She couldn’t leave. Without giving up her careeer for a birthday party. I understand that sounds like excuses, but no I respectfully disagree that she’s making excuses. Yes long term that might not work out, but for that year she’s working for a sociopath and sociopaths don’t care about parties
It's definitely something that needs to be factored. We always have a choice even when we don't feel like it, but choices come with consequences and sometimes they're bigger that what's directly in front of you. The movie itself tells us that Andy's predecessor now works for TV Guide just because she missed a phone call. If Andy REALLY made Miranda angry she could straight up have to leave New York if she ever wants to work in the news again.
@@ariwl1 Ok, but then Andy walked out on Miranda during Fashion Week with no explanation. When we later see Andy looking for another job and she gets Miranda's "recommendation", it's not a direct consequence of her choices (which could have amounted to a far worse result), but yet again the whims of a sociopath. So yes, she could always leave, because no matter how she did it, the consequences would always be arbitrarily chosen by Miranda and there was no way she could bargain with that.
@@Akuuma28 On this point, I think this is where I like the book's direction a little more, since it shows that Andy ruined her reputation with Miranda and everyone who worked at Runway, and it shows her starting over and surrounding herself with people who share her values. I think that Miranda's recommendation kind of undercuts the movie because it means that Andy gets the best of both worlds: she quit her job and keeps her friends/boyfriend and also remains in good graces with Miranda.
@@Akuuma28I don't think Miranda's recommendation is only a random whim. It comes when Andy's proven herself, they've become a little bit closer, and Miranda has started to have some respect for her (all by Miranda's standards of course). If Andy had walked out before proving herself to Miranda then she never would've gotten a good recommendation. She didn't have a choice for the birthday party, but she did at the end of the movie.
My biggest problem with Andy and Nate's relationship is that Andy returns to him after all that. Yes, she decided to not follow Miranda's path, but she clearly changed after this year in Runway. I'd say she found some middle ground for herself, but Nate doesn't seem to be able to accept that people change (or give their attention to other things in life). So Andy basically goes back to the person who presses her to think that "old Andy was good".
Well it seems to be on the filmmakers that they overlooked that. It would have added more good to the movie by giving Nate a moment of realisation of his wrongs and to also for both of them to make a choice if they want to continue with some things changed or not instead of skipping it.
@@zopiranha3871 In the book they don't get back together at all, as far as I remember. They just stop seeing each other, meet during a certain accident and Andy describes Nate as being pretty shitty about this entire situation. Of course, the book describes the story differently, but in my opinion this ending makes more sense.
She gains a new interest and he straight tells her they have 'nothing in common anymore" because of it. I'm not sure they had anything in common to begin with.
I think a part of this is a lack of respect for the industry Andy is in. Neither Nate nor her friends try to meet her half way or learn about her job, they just shame her. And sorry, I would never risk someone I cared about being fired or chewed out by their boss in the name of a joke. Andy could've and should've gone way harder at them for that.
Doug never abandoned her even when the others did. He was always supportive about her goals and life choices. Sure he teased for a second or two with the phone, but it never felt low key malicious like it did with the other two. Doug doesn’t get enough credit in this film.
Well, the problem with this movie isn't that the friends and boyfriends are "toxic" or terrible people, they are ok people that take no accountability and it happens, the real problem is that the movie portrays Andy as the bad friend and the bad girlfriend as if everything was a 100% her fault, not taking into consideration the shitty things her friends do to her
YES! I don't think any of them are terrible people, but the way Andy is portrayed as solely responsible is bogus. She's the only one who's held accountable, and no one else takes responsibility for their part.
@@Nikki..... Ok, yeah, but it also has the unfortunate side effect of delivering a message, as media tends to do, and normalize making women feel guilty and take accountability for everybody's action, not just theirs and that's why, as media, it gets criticized. It's still an amazingly written and performed film, but that's why people don't like some characters; is valid
20:17 this scene has always rubbed me the wrong way, even when I first watched the movie as a 15 or 16yo girl. A friend of 16 years telling you ”the Andy I know is madly in love with Nate”?? Really?? Being in love with someone isn’t an identity.
No sorry, I would never grab someones phone while their boss was calling them. it's not an ooopsie, it's pure sabotage. It wouldn't even cross my mind to make fun of something like that. They were truly behaving like a****les. Just because they were not aware of their own behavior, doesn't mean she should baby them. Sorry, but she needs new friends.
She's making a sacrifice for a year that her friends pushed her to take because of the doors it would open for her, and then when it affected her ability to be there for them, for that year, they dumped on her. They are not being supportive.
@@ashtynrose1906but it’s still shit for them to then try and get her to lose that job or make her quit. Their feelings are perfectly fine and all, it’s just how they acted on it.
I mean, telling your friend to take a job that will be good for them and changing your mind once that friend shows how much they hate it isn't really being unsupportive. Quite the opposite honestly. What they didn't take into account is Andy actually wanting to stay despite her constant complains. And it's honestly on all of them, both Andy and friends for their lack of communicating and having a honest conversation. I have a friend who constantly complains about her inflexible hours in work and that they're dumping work onto her because she's young and low on the food chain there, yet when I try to help and look for other jobs around with my connections she turns them down and doesn't even look up informations about them, despite me listing it for her. In that case I can see why they would tell her to quit when they only ever hear how negatively it impacts Andy. They're not the best of friends, sure, but telling her to quit because they saw that Andy hated it is not one of the problems they have.
@@ashtynrose1906ok, then actually communicate that. Don't sabotage her career by playing hot potato with her phone. Actually bring up the real issues, not "you dress differently".
Me too XD also, was that a reference to the Toxic Hype Train or whatever that ukulele thing was?? Please keep this for every episode!!!! Also, a very important topic
From the first time I watched this movie I picked up a lot of resentment vibes from Lily. She obviously cares at least a bit about fashion - she knows right away who designed the bag Andy gives her, that its new, and that its sold out everywhere. Then there's the line when she confronts Andy and says that the Andy she knows thinks that Club Monaco is couture. It kind of comes off like she was the cool, fashionable, artsy one in their friend group, and in a few months Andy has upstaged her by leaps and bounds, so she feels a subconscious need to tear Andy down, imply that her job isn't important, and resent the ways in which she has changed and grown.
Agreed. Lily came across as entitled and self-centered, and yes, a little resentful over the changes (and success) that Andie is becoming because of her job. When she grabbed the expensive bag from Andie without even a "thank you", she acted like a spoiled, self-involved brat who has a hard time or can't deal when her friends are exceling at their dreams and chosen fields. Lily was my LEAST favorite character - gosh, at least Emily was entertaining in her own snooty way lol
Plus, Emily says "thank you" when Andy saves her at the Gala. Emily, for me, isn't really a jealous, vindictive person. She never tries to sabotage Andy, all her digs are aimed at Andy being a bad fit for the job (which matters to her because Andy's work is reflective of Emily), and she even coaches Andy on the Book and other aspects of the job. Emily is simply a hard worker with misplaced loyalty to a horrible boss. Given her and Andy's work ethic, I think they would've been quite good colleagues under different circumstances.
I never liked how Lily snapped at her for smiling when the blonde guy kissed her on the cheek. Not saying I'm cool with emotional cheating. However, if I was Andy's best friend of 16 years, who saw that happen, I'd calmly approach her, and say something like "Hey, Nate and you seem to be having a lot of conflict lately, that seems difficult, I'm here to listen, if you ever need to talk." Nate and her relationship was clearly falling a part by that point, as a friend I wouldn't essentially be like "you skank, stay with Nate" because that's not objective and might not be what Andy wants/ what is best for her.
Great take on it! I thought it was such a messed up point to make by Lily to say she liked Andy's ignorance of fashion and mad at her that she got smarter from her job. . . this makes perfect sense
12:10 Nate’s unwillingness to atleast empathize with Andy’s new interest in her career and fashion is my biggest gripe with his character. People change and grow with time, so loving someone comes with loving the person they become (within reason ofc). he’s not a villain but definitely wasn’t the best support system for Andy during this time Great video guys!
The phone keep-away scene always angered me because I felt like the movie was trying to use it as an example of “SEE Andy IS starting to change for the worse.” For me the scene reminds me of so many times in my life when someone did something that they knew would make me angry and then when I naturally got angry they acted like “Woah what’s your problem. YOURE the one being unreasonable right now.” I disagree that her calling them assholes was just her taking out her frustration with her job on them. If she had just been able to pick up her phone and answer it no problem, yeah, she might’ve been a little stressed with the job, but I see no reason she would’ve called them assholes then.
I have to say, I do think its really telling that Nate is the one that initiates the game of hot potato with the phone. The fact the he is sulking while Andy is sharing the benefits of her job, talking about how she's learned Runway is more than just fashion and has editorials from journalists she admires, and then he takes the FIRST opportunity he has to act out, putting Andy's livelihood at stake, is kind of a dick move. I also wish you guys had included the reconciliation scene from the end of the film where they get back together. For me, that scene is the biggest red flag from Nate. Andy asks to meet up and genuinely apologizes while taking accountability for her actions. He arrives stand off-ish, and responds to her apology with snarky comments. I honestly dont know why she took him back. I get that they were both in the wrong for how they handled the relationship but like, girl, dont take back someone who treats you with sarcasm when you are ACTIVELY trying to apologize.
Nate was going to Boston for his new job as sous-chef, so how would that even work out if Nate needs a present partner with Andy getting her dream job at New York? *That's almost a 4hr drive.* Sorry, but nothing in their last conversation implied to me they were getting back together, but just agreeing they're going to stay in touch.
@@MaxusFox23I feel like the overall message still applies. She takes accountability and apologizes, he doesn’t and responds with snark. Whether they got back together or were trying to stay friends, that’s a crap response.
I disagree that calling her friends assholes was harsh in the phone moment. Calling someone out with upset language is sometimes necessary to show that you've been hurt, and she doesn't say that her friends are inherently assholes but that in that moment they behaved like assholes, and that means that she still cares for them but they hurt her. So while I agree that the phone moment on its own does not make her friends toxic it is a moment of toxicity that needed to be called out so it would not continue and Andy is in no way wrong for using "harsh" language to do so. At least in my opinion
@@rebbyberard8150 definitely agree, putting someone's livelihood in danger is definitely not the equivalent of calling your friend a name because you're mad at them Especially when they do put your livelihood in danger with phone hot potato.
Andy: "I didn't have a choice." Nate / everyone: "You always have a choice." ..... So for many jobs (including Andy's), you make a choice to either accept the job or not. Once you accept the job, you do what you are told and what is expected of you. It is often not the case that you "always have a choice" in any meaningful sense unless you want your "choice" to be that you were fired or you're leaving the job. We even see this at the end of the movie, when Andy decides not to answer Miranda's call and she knows that choice means that she doesn't work for Miranda anymore. And that's fine - that's her choice to make, but the alternative reality Nate / Andy's friends inhabit where you can pick and choose what parts of your job are convenient for you and still keep your job ... that reality doesn't exist and it's maddening that they keep insisting that it does.
I think this comes from a more almost bohemian outlook on work. Honestly, I don't think Andy or Nate are wrong or bad. I think that throughout the film, they just realized how incompatible they had become. I am of the belief that "you always have a choice" I have been homeless and raised in poverty until I graduated college and got a well paying job. I COMPLETELY understand the repercussions of losing a job and not having money for housing, food etc. I understand doing whatever it takes to make ends meet. And STILL I think we always have a choice. When you have this kind of upbringing, I generally see 2 perspectives come out of it: People who become workaholics out of loss trauma and who hoard resources and money in fear of losing them again. And then those who have an acceptance of the fact that anything can happen at anytime, so they prefer to live their life free of the fear of loss. I think Andy was more career driven and ambitious than she thought she was. Nate also thought, because Andy did too, that she was less career driven, and so he was confused and hurt by her new more career oriented outlook. It's like grief for the Andy he used to know or thought he knew. I don't think Nate was being unreasonable. Yes, the phone scene is objectively mean. I cannot refute that, but Nate's feelings overall are valid in my opinion because at least I believe work is NOT everything and he was losing what really mattered to him above money and status... Andy
@@wendyberrios5957 I think these are great insights - thank you for sharing. However, I want to clarify that my point was about the nature of the job itself, not anything to do with loss trauma, hoarding resources, or being a workaholic. Oftentimes industry norms drive whether you "have a choice" or not, or even how much of a choice you have, which is why you have so many people pointing out that no, Andy didn't realistically have a choice .... but also Nate should understand that as he also works in an industry where you work what you're told to work and you're not leaving until you're done. If anything, Nate's industry has much less flexibility than Andy's so he of all people should have been understanding and supportive. If the norms of a particular job / industry doesn't work for you, then the job itself doesn't work for you - and that's okay, but while you're working that job you need to do what's expected of you until you exercise your choice to leave. We have people in my field who like to decide that they "have a choice" right when it's crunch time ... and they often don't last very long and they don't get good references either because they took a job knowing what was expected of them and then deciding that they "have a choice." THAT is what I'm talking about - the nature of the job itself.
@@michellewinkleman3999 Thank you for clarifying your perspective. My reply already had this nuance taken into account, but perhaps it was not communicated in the clearest way. The mention about the perspective of loss was to contextualize why someone would have such a belief, but I did not note that very clearly, sorry... Logically speaking, you are correct. Certain jobs have essentially black and white ultimatums that means keeping the job or being fired. You're right, Nate's industry has less "choice" and Nate STILL believes that we always have a choice. As do I. I recently was in a job that had me chose between keeping my job and doing right by the people I served as part of my job. Following the rules to keep my job would mean populations of people in need would go unserved and unsupported in favor of collecting data that did not serve to directly help those populations (I was in a mentorship/support role). What the people wanted and needed and asked for was to be helped and supported directly. You could say I "had no choice" and I just had to sit back and crunch numbers when there was a person who needed help even if it was hard to keep my job and make ends meet. But I did have a choice. I always have a choice. I could choose to serve the people in need, or protect my "job" and keep my money. I chose to help, even if it cost me my job. And it eventually did. I quit before they could fire me even though I did not have another job guaranteed. I had a job on the horizon, but it was not certain. I lived alone and paid rent on my own, but that did not matter to me... It comes down to values. Nate doesn't value work. It is just a way to make ends meet. The conflict with Andy is that she has found herself caught in a values see-saw, teeter tottering between the value system she thought she had, and this new value system. She started as someone with Nate's value system: they thought the fashion industry was superficial and vain etc, but later Andy's values start to change and THAT is the source of the story's tension. Like I said, I don't think anyone is wrong here! Both of their feelings and values are valid! It is a story of the quiet grief of value systems shifting between two people who now want different things from life and see life in different perspectives, but want to retain a status quo that no longer exists. My hot take opinion is that the whole industrial complex has permeated so deeply into society that people forget that they are people with autonomy, values, and agency BEFORE they are employees of anything... You can't control the way life goes, but you have one powerful reality: You always have a choice...
I think the disconnect here is the definition of toxicity, I don’t necessarily believe a person has to intentionally act with malice for it to be toxic. I believe someone can absolutely do awful things and be unaware of it but that doesn’t excuse them of the fact what they did was toxic
The thing that bothers me so much about Andy's friend group is the hypocrisy. Especially with Nate. Andy happily supported Nate when he had a chef job that has notoriously long working hours. She respects his field. But as soon as Andy gets a job with long hours, suddenly Nate gets butthurt about it. He also refuses to respect the fashion field, and thinks its frivolous and girly. Not to mention, all Andy's friends will happily accept expensive gifts from her, but when Andy has to do her job, they take issue with it. Some of the things Andy does about her job are definitely her own choice. But her friends too quickly forget that she is working for someone who demands PERFECT OBEDIENCE from her workers, or they LOSE THEIR JOB. That feels like dubious consent to me, in terms of the choices Andy makes about her job.
Waaiiittt wait - so it’s fine for the friends to accept all the perks of Andy’s job in terms of expensive free stuff, whilst still continuing to mock and sneer at her job!?
But mocking her job is what they thought is supporting her. In that case they were being thankful to her by doing what they knew she liked, hating her job and boss.
Pretty messed up for a group of friends who just received gifts because of her work, to potentially make her loose that same job now that they got their gifts... who cares, not them! It gives the good old 'you can be successful but never more than us' If it's not toxic, it's poisonous
The friends became unredeemable to me when 1) she dropped ~$5-6K in swag on the table and there wasn't a SINGLE thank-you from anyone (just more snarky crap from Nate), then 2) they played keep-away with her phone like they were in second grade. And no, it wasn't a joke taken too far. It was a joke that never should have been made because you don't mess with someone's job. None of the friends can seem to accept that they aren't the first priority all the time. Besides, Nate burned that cheese sandwich.
Edited to add: If Nate is a chef, how does he have the time and energy for a relationship either?? Kitchen staff in general and chefs in particular have crazy long, hard hours. If anything, she should be used to him not being present.
Finally!!! I was looking for a comment on that burned cheese sandwich, how did he, a Chef, burn that sandwich so much? It was almost black. I do see the point where Andy was wrong, but the friends and especially Nate never apologize or take accountability for their wrong actions as well.
That phone scene killed me. My uncle and father both have jobs that basically require them to have their phones on at all times in case of emergency. My aunt jokes with my uncle that she's gonna chuck his phone out a moving car. My stepmom teases my dad that his "boyfriend" is calling whenever he gets a work call. You know what they never do? PLAY KEEP AWAY WITH THE PHONES. Because that is their LIVELIHOOD. Full stop! If my dad's phone goes off and he's not near it, it's brought to him. Same with my uncle's phone. Sure, Andi has a horrible boss who demands probably way more than Andi is getting paid for. But it's still her livelihood. If she messes up, that can screw her over in this industry. If she does well, the recommendation can take launch her career. I would have sympathy for the friends if they joked about taking her phone away, but didn't do so, and Andi got pissed off for that. I could excuse that as a joke being taken too far and Andi being too stressed to handle it properly. But literally taking her phone and nearly causing her to miss a potentially important call? No, she was correct amounts of pissed off.
I think the thing about this film is that it came out in 2006, 18 years ago. A whole generation has come of age since then. And, speaking as a young person, here's the additional context that we sit down with when we watch a film like this: cost of living expenses are at an all-time high, the job search is less accessible than ever, and every new technology (such as generative AI) seems to make even more people redundant. Andi's friends present Andi's choices as "Keep working for a terrible boss who abuses her" or "Quit and just go get a new job" as if that's so simple. But this has become woefully out of touch with the 2024 audience, which is more likely to interpret her options as "Keep working for a terrible boss who abuses her" or "Give up on this major career opportunity, become unemployed for who-knows-how-long, move back in with your parents if you can, and accept that you will never amount to anything under capitalism". Not to imply that Alan & Jono are out-of-touch with the youth, but this film just reads differently now because Miranda feels less like an unusually cruel and abusive boss, and more like _just another_ cruel and abusive boss. Most young people these days work multiple jobs they hate just to make rent, with no promise of future opportunity. And most of them would say that they'd trade places with Andi in a heartbeat if it meant they could afford to live in New York City, eventually learn to like their job (which actually has some really great networking benefits), and after a year slaving away for Miranda, walk away with the best professional reference in the industry. When we see how Andi's friends treat her over her work, we're far more inclined to agree with Andi's rhetoric of "I don't have a choice, this is my job" because that's the socio-economic situation that most under-25s experience day-to-day. And because we're all sort of in the same boat, we're a lot more used to our real friends just accepting that our jobs suck and making the most of whatever time we can see each other. The film is designed to show how a demanding job can put pressure on relationships, and it does that really well without making anyone the villain (besides Miranda). But to a generation that already experiences this problem and so many others, Andi's mediocre, can't-read-the-room friends seem obnoxious and inconsiderate, and Andi's mediocre, can't-communicate-healthily boyfriend seems abusive and toxic. In conclusion, The Devil Wears Prada shows us a terrible job by 2006 standards and a pretty mediocre friend group by anyone's standards. But by 2024 standards, Andi's job is actually looking pretty good (even if it isn't), and her friends are looking really bad (even if they aren't).
Great take. Agree. Also there is the gendered factor of being a successful woman in business comes with a lot of shit. I get where they are coming from but I think the context you addressed is important
Nice analysis of how the audience is part of the context. Every thing I know about film theory I learned from Lindsay Ellis! -Auteur Theory/Death of the Author -Genre -Feminism/Male gaze vs Female gaze -Queer Theory -Marxist Theory Now we need to add Generation Theory! Beyond how an individual’s perspective changes their interpretation of media (Death of the Author) to how a group’s shared experience compares to a different age group in the same society.* How does the intended audience react to a film in the moment, how do they respond decades later, and how does the new intended audience react to older content. Analysis of reboots and how changes in values are reflected in script changes is a whole subgenre! (I know I’m getting excited, but I am reminded of a tv show about a talent agent that got the position suddenly so doesn’t have the years of conditioning in the industry. A writer is trying to sell a script and is told to make it more exciting, maybe add a chase scene. Only the ingenue loves it as is and tries to push it forward. The script is “Mr Smith Goes To Washington” and the experiment was to see if the industry was willing to make GOOD content or just whatever was calculated to MAKE A PROFIT. The episode was the entertainment industry calling itself out, and this was back in the 90s!) *I already read a comment from a Spaniard expressing their viewpoint of American work culture putting too much emphasis on your job being more important than yourself and your personal relationships. Different cultures are another lens to explore.
Great take tbh. This movie came out when I was 12 and shortly after was “the Great Recession.” Jobs were hard to come by and in this universe of 2006 it was already established that Andy struggled to get a job, flash forward just two years later and the concept of hanging onto your job was such a bigger threat and the idea of throwing away a potential career when things were so uncertain is crazy.
Excellent point. And as someone who was in their age group when this came out in 2006, it was true then too, just not to the extreme level it is now. Especially in fields they were all in.
Agreed. By no means is Andy perfect, but the film doesn't actually present many options for her to get where she wants to go. And it does bug me how her friends (and dad!) harp on her for being Miranda's assistant and not doing what she really wants to do which is journalism. But Andy was out of college what, a year at most? Unless you're a top of the world talent and/or dad's got connections your first job likely isn't going to be anywhere close to your dream. If you take out the part that Miranda is an objective nightmare to work for, on paper Andy's first gig is pretty impressive.
“The Andy I’ve known for 16 years is crazy about Nate”… Dude… how come you’ve known her for 16 years, been her friend, and you don’t know when she really likes something, like the job she has now. How come she doesn’t get the little cues of Andy that, yes she’s changing, but she’s in a highly stressful job that demands more attention than they’re used to? That’s a lot of finger pointing for someone that’s known you “for 16 years”
Right! Like a person is not allowed to change in 16 years. What if Andy wanted to break up with Nate would her friend choose sides with Nate?? They made no sense.
I agree. I also don't get why Lily was so upset. Andi and Christian were just talking. He kissed her on the cheek. That's it. You'd think Andi pulled Christian in for a kiss the way Lily reacted.
@@andromeda331well it wasnt him kissing her, it was Andi's reaction to him kissing her. in her friend's face I could see that she immediately thought "the old andi would tell him to f*** off why's she twirling her hair and sh**" so her anger makes sense
Yeah if they've been friends that long surely she has had other relationships etc. The appropriate response to this is to be concerned that your friend might be unhappy in their relationship and ask how they are not make it sound like a crime to be losing interest in a boy!
Boyfriend is toxic. If he’s a chef on the rise, then he knows (or should) what “paying your dues” looks like: you start at the bottom on prep, you put in your time, travel and stage for free in exchange for training in interesting kitchens, rise through line or specialty cook to sous, head, then executive chef if you’re good enough…Mentorship and reputation are everything in fine dining. He should 100% understand what Andie’s doing and why. (Okay, maybe not the kissing the Mentalist part, but in general.) He’s a big, self-centered baby.
Why the hell does everyone think Andi did something horrible to Emily? Emily treated her like subhuman crap the entire movie, Andi proves herself a more reliable employee and is selected to go to Paris instead, and then people act like it was a shitty thing to do to this woman who has showed her no empathy or kindness? Seems like people want Andi to be a doormat.
I think it boils down to: 1. Miranda had picked Andy to go over Emily, but hadn't told Emily yet. 2. Emily senses something is wrong, so she's rushing around trying to stay in Miranda's good graces and then ends up in the accident as a result of her rushing around. 3. Instead of just accepting that she can't go due to being injured, Andy shows up and tells her that Miranda had picked her anyway. Andy could have just not mentioned that Miranda made that decision, and just been sympathetic over her injuries and the fact she can't go. But she makes her feel worse instead. (I'm sure Miranda would have eventually mentioned to Emily that she'd picked Andy, but let Miranda be the awful toxic one her, not Andy. The fact Andy has to say it just shows that there is some spark in there that maybe Andy could become like Miranda someday if she's not careful.) And sure, Emily treats Andy like crap a lot of the time. But in the books, they show that's just kind of how Emily is, and the people who know her know that. And she's got a lot of very good friends (including Andy) despite how she talks. Emily is more of a "show people you care for them" kind of person, so her actions speak louder than her words. And people like Miranda have neither words nor actions to care about anyone.
@@crazybiogeek No it doesn't. 1. It's not Miranda's job to tell Emily that she picked Andy over her, she instructs who tells what to who. Miranda is the boss and has all the right to pick the MOST qualified person to go with her on the most important business trip of the year. . . and I don't blame her. Emily treated that business trip like a vacation. 2. Emily did not sense anything wrong, she was doing her JOB by running around to do the errands INSTRUCTED to her by her boss. Emily was just rusty in that JOB since she got used to Andy doing all that work. Remember Andy doing all that work? The whole job is a big difficult rush. 3. Andy needs to lie in a work situation that is over her head to spare someone's feelings? Have you never worked in an office or HR? Hon, you NEVER lie about the decisions made by those who are way above your supervisor.
Agreed. I don't see any problem in that situation. A coworker is sick and unable to go so the boss chooses someone else to go instead. So what? Why would you say no to this, seriously? And why would saying yes make you a bad person? In my profession, we always have so-called covers - people who step in as your replacement if you get sick etc. And it's completely normal.
The problem I have with the “friends” in particular is a scene where they are tossing Andy’s phone around to keep away from her when her boss is calling. This scene bothered me so much. They know she’s in a high pressure job with a mean boss. They are knowingly hurting her. Playful teasing is one thing but messing with someone’s job and money is another. They also didnt apologize for “doing a oops”
100% agree with this. Even after she calls them a- holes that fact that was so out of character for Andi doesn't make them second guess themselves. No shame. Just "Pffft, what's her problem?"
i think in the grand scheme of the movie that one scene is negligible, not excusable, but just not all encompassing enough to overshadow the fact that Andy was changing and not being up front about it, esp to Nate. just my two scents.
I think the friends, in their minds, were messing around, expecting old Andy to not care that much and actually laugh along with them. Their mistake was to assume her reaction to be "no big deal guys", I don't think that's knowingly hurting her. Yes, it hurt her and they didn't apologize, that's something that should be addressed, but I still don't see it as toxic behaviour. Like Jonathan said, both the friends and Andy could have acted better in this situation. Both sides made mistakes. Them by ignoring her pleads and stressing her out, her by transfering her frustration (originally caused by Miranda) towards them. "Assholes" is a pretty strong word to use in that situation, she's allowed to be mad at them but I honestly understand why they felt offended by her words.
The thing I would question with this movie is how much Andy actually changed. She was just someone with a strong work ethic and that's who she always was. How can we say that she stabbed her colleague in the back by going to Paris when that colleague never had her back? Andy took the job to launch her career knowing a reference from Miranda would be powerful. She knew the job wasn't what she wanted to do long-term but needed to put her best foot forward to get that strong recommendation. Her friends were telling her to leave. If she left and didn't score that reference, that means she just wasted her time working there. If her friends were adults, they would understand why she was biting the bullet she was.
It was also a tough job market during a recession. Things are better now but, when this was made, if you were lucky enough to get a job in your twenties in your field, you couldn’t just quit on a whim and expect to find something else. And resume gaps could be the death of your career. Even if she weren’t career-oriented, it’s not like she had the luxury to just choose to be unemployed. She needed to be able to pay her bills. It would have been unreasonable to expect or demand a friend or partner quit their job in that time period. That would have been a huge ask you wouldn’t make of someone you care about. Maybe you would keep an eye or ear out for other opportunities for them or help them network to try to find something less stressful but you wouldn’t fault them for choosing to do what they need to do to remain employed.
Exactly , and I think why there's such a response to this is we've all been where Andy is at some point with our jobs. Hell missing social events is light wait till you have to toss up work versus caring responsibilities or family illness etc. Not all employers will give you paid time off. I had to work late and miss part of my birthday this year. My friends response was was to order me extra food and wine for when I arrived as she knew I was tired and stressed not tell me I was a terrible person!
I have never understood why is it her stabbing Emily by going to Paris when Emily wasn't going to be able to go *at all, in no way shape or form*. What was she supposed to do then? Was she supposed to say "I am not going to do the job of being an assistant because my friend doesn't get to go"?
- Her friends happily accept these INSANELY EXPENSIVE and exclusive gifts, that bag esp is a status symbol on par with giving your working class friend a Ferrari, cuz your boss didn't need it. The hot potato scene is just in very poor taste considering they are jeopardizing Andy's employment (if she misses the call she could be fired), despite gleefully reaping the benefits seconds earlier. - Also it makes them come across as hypocritical to judge her for suddenly caring about fashion when they obviously do so too. The moment they happily accepted those gifts they lost the moral high ground in that argument. (I do think they were intentionally written to be unsympathetic, so that Andy feels progressively isolated by the end) Nate might not be as awful as some ppl say, but the fact that he's a CHEF, a job that is both artistic and also very demanding and stressful, you'd expect him to be more sympathetic to Andy's workload and change. Also, if my bf was a chef, I don't think making someone grilled cheese is as impressive a gesture, it just feels like the bare minimum; I'll admit that it's probably because that's just what Andy used to like, so Nate misses his low-maintenance girlfriend. They're not bad people, they're just kinda bad together I'd say.
I love that you pointed out the hypocrisy of them clearly enjoying fashion themselves while then turning around and treating Andy like she's sold her soul after she no longer makes fun of them.
I personally don't think her friends were hypocritical. After accepting the presents, things started to change for them all. Yes, they were expensive presents, but I think they would have been happy with anything she brought them. She was trying to repay them for their support, and she chose to give the really expensive stuff. After that scene things get worse and I personally think that is when the friends really start to see how things have changed. They are allowed to change their minds, especially if Andy is continuing to change herself. If she is allowed to change, so are they. Yes I suppose they could give the presents back, but if I am losing my best friend I don't think material items are what is most on my mind at that time. Yes the phone thing definitely went too far, but that doesn't make them bad people. And on the chef thing, I think if I was dating a chef I would very much expect them to not cook such elaborate things, when that is literally what they have been doing all day. Chefs are allowed to have a break from their work too. Some chefs might enjoy it so much that they still cook like that at home, but considering the working hours and difficulty for chefs Nate is likely exhausted. So yes, dating someone who doesn't what that level of meals is probably a relief for him. I do agree with you that with the kind of job he has Nate is better placed to understand the levels of stress and extra hours she is doing. Like all things nothing is cut and dry, things are complicated, and everyone has good moments and bad moments in the film (although Miranda has maybe only one good moment lol).
It'd be interesting to see how the relationship would work if the dynamics were reversed. The movie ends with Nate getting a coveted Sou Chef position in Boston. Andy would have to give up New York to move with him. Its possible the tables will turn in the future and Nate will be the busy one while Andy would have more free time. Just a thought.
Even though I’m a therapist, my beef is with the movie and how it concludes with Andy was wrong and her friends were right all along , so now she has to go back and apologise. Like they saw what she couldn’t until it was too late for her and every meaningful relationship she had was gone… BECAUSE OF HER. Honestly, Emily grows more than anyone in this movie and maintains her integrity throughout
Andi looses her way because she doesn't actually have any support. They all want Andi to stay the same, and when she starts to grow, they can't stand it. They don't want her to change and don't recognise what she's learning from this job - instead they mock her for it. Actually, the only one who appreciates what she's doing is the lawyer guy-friend who understands the opportunity but even he sides with Nate and the artist friend with the phone throwing scene. Nate doesn't want her to grow and his protests are all jealousy... yet if he was working for a true Michelin star restaurant, he would be doing the same - working all the hours and trying to achieve greatness underneath a driven Head Chef who would demand perfect. Andi discovered that she wanted more than cruising along in life and Runway pushed her to be better and to drive for more than the mediocre - that she has permission to want more, and to push for more, and Miranda is the lesson of how so not do it, so she can make better choices. Nate wants to cruise in life. Andi discovers a drive to want more and Nate drops her because he doesn't want his girl showing him up. I actually watched this just last week and realised how immature Nate was written - though the relationship breakdown is posed as Andis fault is actually wasn't , it was actually Nate haveing a tantrum about not being #1. Imagine what would have happened if they'd had a baby!! Nates tantrum would have been worse because he was no longer the centre of Andis world. Thanks for listening to my thesis on #GirlPower
The final interaction between Andy and Nate wasn't shown, but it's the one that really cements my dislike Nate. He and Andy bump into each other and she learns he's moved to another state for his job. He learns that she quit hers, for good this time. He then throws out that she should move and join him in Baltimore. After him not supporting her at her last job, I can't stand that he wants her to drop everything and follow him for his big, life-changing job, when he couldn't be there for her during hers. The double-standard upsets me so much.
Yeah, to me this has always seemed like the setup for the inverse story, where he is overworked and never around, and she eventually has to end things with him. I don't think either if them are "toxic", but I don't think they are good for each other.
He moves to a poor rural community as a part of Teach for America in the books, and Andy doesn't follow him because she wants to stay in (or near) NYC.
Nate became a Sous Chef in Boston. Andy interviewed at a major newspaper in NY, and seemingly got the job. Nate says "I'm sure we can work something out." My personal headcannon is that the distance was too great and they ultimately decided to go their separate ways lol. Seriously, they'd have 0 time for each other, and they both seem career oriented anyway. BYE NATE!
It was a stepping stone into a career that she’s trying to pursue. The other thing that people ignore is the fact that this is a story of the difference between men and women especially in the mid 2010’s and before. Men can pursue the career, have the family, and the white picket fence because they have a supportive partner in a heterosexual relationship. Women, straight or otherwise, are always forced to sacrifice something to get what they want.
@@jennifergebhart5873 This. Especially that Nate is a chef which has wildly unpredictable hours and chances that you're going to miss every kind of big events in your life, it is such a double standard. Given that everybody in the group has known Andy and Nate for 16 years, they should all remember the early years of Nate's culinary experience. The fact that only one of her friends is willing to give her Grace and not take with one hand And saying that they also enjoy fashion while wagging a finger with the other hand shows that even in this group dynamic of 16 years, the double standard is so present.
No, there were also movies about the workaholic dad who was neglecting his family & at the end of the movie he learns he needs to spend more time with them. So it was the same for both men and women.
I don’t think Andy’s friends were toxic but I will say after Nate breaks up with her and she quits working for Miranda I can’t imagine Andy hanging out with them anymore because her role in their friend group was so obviously Nate’s adoring girlfriend who is basically the girl version of him.
I'm glad to see everyone in the comments is in agreement about the hot potato phone scene. I think the Cinema Therapy guys did that scene a disservice, and I especially question the validity of the therapist for shrugging it off in the way he did. It should have ranked WAYYYY higher on the toxicity scale, and Andy absolutely had every right to call them a-holes.
“And then we can stop pretending like we have anything in common anymore.” If Andy admits to actually liking the job, she fears Nate will break up with her because he can’t see himself being with a Runway girl. This kind of emotional hostage situation is unhealthy to both of them. Not Nate nor her friends are allowing Andy to be who she’s slowly becoming, they’re not giving her space to reflect on what’s actually going on with her, prolonging the process and making it more painful for everybody. Everybody in this movie is at fault and that’s why it feels so realistic and human and great. Also, I do think Andy was hurt by Nate’s joke in the beginning of the movie about her wardrobe and I think it’s a crucial moment for her, because she realizes that even the love of her life doesn’t think she has any fashion sense whatsoever and I think that’s what drives her in the beginning of her year at Runway, which then turns into an obsession.
I disagree with the “she did have a choice, she could’ve left the party” just bc Miranda would’ve not only fired her, but also has the power to ruin her chances in journalism in general not just in fashion. It’s definitely valid for Andy to say that she couldn’t leave and didn’t have a choice when her dream and future is at stake
Ah but see Miranda says later…”Oh you chose…you CHOSE to get ahead” There’s always a choice. Just because the consequences of those choices are awful, doesn’t mean there wasn’t a choice to begin with.
Yeah, I think it's about how she says it. "I didn't have a choice" is different from "my whole career depended on staying at that stupid party". And he should understand that, of course it's going to hurt but that doesn't mean you can't move on. Birthdays come every year but career opportunities like this are rare.
To take from Babylon 5 people only say they don't have a choice when they already made up their mind. You have a choice. You may not like the outcome but you have a choice.
I think Miranda created an environment that made Andy feel like she legitimately did not have a choice without life-altering consequences (the usual corporate BS). Like, "I'll fire you and ruin your future career prospects if you say no to me" kinda consequences. She put Andy in such a tight spot, and I feel for her when she says she doesn't have a choice because the agency she had was essentially taken away from her at the very beginning. Props to Andy for finally choosing to walk away tho. NGL but that's quite a career gamble. Imagine if Miranda didn't give a good testimonial
I agree that much of the stakes that are kind of glossed over the film was that for the most part her career was made to seem like on the line even when applying, it was stated that this was one of only two jobs offered to her. It could have been assumed that she applied to alot of jobs and this probably was the best option for her. But even if it wasnt, miranda is the type of boss that cab jeopadise a person's whole future if the assistant does anything wrong. On the other end, Andy does not communciate that well the lingering threat for working for such a person and is overshadowed by her competency and dedication to the job out of sheer survival i feel. Its not like she can just opt to ruin her future and not work in that field she is good at.
6:44 Hard disagree. 8 dollars worth of Jarlsberg and he BURNED THAT SANDWICH TO A CINDER! They expect me to believe this man is both a chef and a good boyfriend? You don't serve that kind of kitchen misstep to people you like. 😂
Lol I'm reading through this sea of comments bringing up reasons not to like this man and then I find this one. You win, you understand what matters XD
Another part that wasnt talked about that really irked me about nate in the movie is the scene where andy didnt quit and is working on the science project. Andy says "same andy better clothes" and nate poutily says he liked the old clothes. Andy then playfully is asking about different pieces shes wearing asking if he likes them. He continues to barely acknowledge or show interest in what is clearly a newfound large interest of hers and claims he doesnt like any of it. Then she shows him the lingerie shes wearing, and suddenly hes interested and all over it. He picks her up and is suddenly enthusiastic when its something that directly benefits his own interests. It just comes of as really sleazy and shitty, that he didnt care at all about her interest until it was something that could sexually fulfill and benefit him.
I think you guys are looking into it too much. The new clothes literally symbolizes her change. Like it's okay for her to like fashion now that she gets it and is involved in it, but there's a difference between "my work has opened my eyes and I want to also take pride in the work that I am accomplishing" and "look, I had to learn to be fashionable for work, but at the end of the day this is still a means to an end and I haven't changed at all". Also that lingerie thing wasn't him liking it so much as him liking sex
I loved this movie through high school. Still do. At that time, my friends and I were 100% on deck with Andy's friend and boyfriend - like c'mon girl, prioritize those relationships! But when I rewatched it as an adult, my opinions shifted. I was working in the film industry. My friends were working at Meta. Both are very difficult, demanding places. And at that point, all of us could not STAND Andy's friends or Nate LOL. Mostly because we had all had to deal with that juggle - and REALLY appreciated our friends who stuck with us through the change, including having less time together (sometimes). I get what the film is saying through their eyes, and they do make some good points... but I still see them as super unsupportive LOL.
yes, we forget he is absent too.... hes a line cook in NYC... those are minimum 10-12 hour shifts every day. It's likely he was stressed too and missed his mama to come home to when he was smelling like a grill or something. Or that he only has mornings off, and she had to be up early to get to the office, and that their schedules just didnt line logistically. Not to be TMI, but this is literally what happened to me and my partner of 3 years. He was a line cook, I'm an artist... we moved to new york together, then the stress of having two busy/absent partners got in the way of love
I think something tiny that would've made a massive difference is apologizing to Andy and being more empathetic before criticizing her. "Hey, we got carried away with the phone, you were so considerate and brought us something and we acted like asses. We're really sorry." "Hey, it's none of my business but... is everything okay with Nate? Are you having issues? Maybe I misunderstood but it looked like that guy kissing your cheek barely missed your neck." (yeah the last one is coming off kinda passive-aggressive but I think the interpretation depends on the delivery and whether the actress says it like she's accusing Andy or him and being protective of her friend.)
Yeah, honestly I hate that she didn't ask about it. Just assumed Andy was cheating because some guy kissed her on the cheek and then chewed her out for it. Yuck.
I disagree with the points about Andy missing Nate's birthday party. She didn't just miss it because she had to work, she was doing it to support a coworker who was sick and clearly unable to do the work on her own. That's the thing that's always bugged me about that whole scene.
And also, what kind of man-child makes a fuss about birthdays? Pass the age of 18 to 20, people generally don't care about their birthdays anymore. Even if they do, they should have enough mental maturity to know not everyone will make time or be able to make time to be there. People will have jobs, children, other responsibilities far more important than a day they squeezed out their mums.
hmmm, I don't really agree that *Andy* was doing it to support Emily, Miranda demanded that they both come because Emily was sick. Before that Andy was looking forward to getting off early for Nate's party.
I think the most accurate way to describe it is that Andy's friends and Nate are right in how they feel but not because Andy is a bad person. Andy was just doing an act of service to someone who needed it the most.
@@fairy6818 The kind that was there selfesly supporting his GF and when the time that was special for him, where people celebrate you being a part of their lifes and show appreciation for you... expect to be shown some amount of appreciation back. Ironically, the same can be said for her Boss... ever heard about dayquil and nightquil? You are a grown adult, take the meds and push on like the rest of the world.
Not to mention, right after she’s told to be at the work party. She calls her friends and explains things to them. So it’s not like she completely blew it off.
I feel like I'm the only one whose major beef with this movie is how Andy feels bad and lets everyone else make her feel bad about "taking away Paris" from Emily. She's surpassed the performance of the person who is technically above her in the workplace hierarchy, a person who was nothing but terrible to her from the moment she met her, and it could even be argued that she tried to sabotage her (the super vague instructions for where to leave The Book at Miranda's house, for instance). They definitely didn't have the same relationship as Miranda and Nigel, and Miranda screwing Nigel over to save her own ass isn't even in the same realm as Emily being bumped off of the Paris Team in favor of Andy. All Andy did was be damn good at her job, while Emily was too busy worrying about losing enough weight to fit all the free clothes she was going to get in Paris.
Agreed, and I think this is a failure on the writers' part. In order for this plot point to work, they needed to make it play out in a way where Andy was deliberately pushing Emily aside. Instead, it was clear that Emily was out either way. Was Andy supposed to sacrifice her career so Emily could go to Paris for a week and play dressup? Even after Emily was hit by a car and rendered unable to go? It's not like Emily was getting fired or anything; she still had her job and probably a chance at going the following year instead. It's totally fair for Andy to feel badly for Emily, but it's not fair to say she should feel at fault for what happened there. Whereas Miranda could have found a solution that didn't involve betraying a decades-long friendship/working relationship, wrecking Nigel's big break that he's been working toward and dreaming about for years. It's a false equivalence.
@@TheGreatWerebear-ge7uh I agree that it is a false equivalence, but I had thought that was intentional on the part of the writers. It's been a while since I last watched the movie, but the image I have in my memory is that Miranda suggests that what Andy "did to" Emily is similar to what Miranda did to Nigel. I was left with the impression that this was a manipulation tactic by Miranda, which Andy was vulnerable to because she already felt that she'd betrayed some of her values (and Emily/her other friends) to get there.
This is why Emily vs. Andy just never lands with me. Emily was sick, broke her leg, and the boss straight up said she doesn't want her there. Emily wasn't going to Paris no matter what Andy did.
I always thought her friends weren’t really friends and her boyfriend was only a good guy when it was convenient for him. I can’t imagine my friends/family or even my coworkers behaving in such a way.
Some other nuances to the cell phone hot potato scene. On Nate: Before Andy walks in, Nate is sharing knowledge of cooking, i.e. his career with the table. And Andy for once has something cool to share about her stressful job, and suddenly, his career progress isn’t the “cool” focus anymore. That’s a particularly selfish part of him being too put out for the situation that got to me a lot. On her friends: they are all for Andy’s new job when she brings them cool expensive stuff for free. But once Andy starts going into the logistics of the magazine, and beyond the “fancy purses,” they *immediately* tune out along with Nate. And still accept the expensive gifts after blatantly disrespecting the job that got them those gifts in the first place. F tier friends mooching off of her while not supporting her dreams.
@@megabladechronicles962 Precisely, that always boiled my blood. They could have gotten Andy fired, and just after she treated them to expensive work gifts.
Agree, if this were a real life scenario that person could lose their job with a boss like Miranda. And the friends were at least somewhat aware of that. Her BF definitely was and didn't stop it.
Yes, they took it too far in that scene. But the breakup scene where Andi is told that 'the person whose call you always take is the one you're in a relationship with' was spot on. No matter who she was with, what time it was, she took Miranda's phone calls. She put Miranda above everyone else in her life.
@ccdoubleo, kinda? I mean, it was, and Miranda was insane. However, I used to be all for the job, loved it (unlike Andy) and I'd do a lot unpaid stuff. Then I had a baby. Twice I left my classes (with approval and work to cover) because my hubby locked himself out with our son (this is an hour round trip), once because hubby was worried about something (it was nothing). I will answer my phone during class (to be fair no one calls me, so if it rings, it's urgent and important or spam) and just generally my son is my priority over everything and anything. Luckily I've never had a Miranda in my life, but I'd tell her to stick it (and get fired). I'm also at least 10 years older than Andy and with great age come very few fs to give imo.
The reason this relationship grinds my gears is that it's echoing a behavioural pattern men often exhibit that IS toxic, and that's trying to break a female partner down when you see them as achieving more social status than you. And you could argue that Andi DOES become conventionally more successful and attractive than him, and so it comes off as him trying to bring her back down to his level so they're equals again. That's kind of how the ending comes off to me, as though she needs to compromise in order to be his equal without which she won't 'earn' his respect, and to me that reeks of a manipulativeness that falls into the realm of toxicity because it is, in the most basic sense, meant to hinder her progress for HIS benefit. I 100% agree that her friends are not toxic, for all the reasons you mentioned. They're entitled to articulate that they feel their values aren't aligned anymore.
Its been a while since I saw this movie in full, but I don't really remember anyone being entirely wrong or right. There were a bunch of people who made mistakes and lost sight of what's important, but there were a lot of attempts at accountability, making up, and trying to do the right thing now for a better future. The movie is great for showing that people are messy in a very believable way. People aren't perfect
Some thoughts: Miranda's toxicity touches everyone in Andy's life (including every single one of her co-workers). It really bothers me when people give Miranda too much sympathy and they decide Nate is the true villain. ALL of the characters in this movie do things that hurt people but Miranda manages to hurt EVERYONE.
@@sadem1045 I believe one of the staff members said in an interview that Nate was the "true villain" of the movie and people just agreed with it blindly? I even discussed it with my sister, who's also a psychologist, and she said "Yeah, NO. Andy DID have to step it up to reach her job's expectations, but saying Nate was the "true villain" is straight up BS". But it's like the internet cannot argue without amplifying situations to the extremes... instead of admiting ups and downs in everything IS NORMAL.
@@MaxusFox23 He's the "true villain" because *everyone* knows Miranda is toxic; it's not a secret, even to Miranda, who readily admits what she does and why. But people *defend* Nate in his sh!tty, playing-the-victim behavior and Andi is the one who's "always wrong" in their relationship. THAT'S the difference.
„Friends always give each other crap haha lol totally normal“ is very often just a thinly veiled excuse to say mean things about your „friends“ and they can’t defend themselves cause „oh chill out, can’t you take a joke, we’re friends, that’s what friends do“ Like, I fail to see anything funny about this dynamic; I’ve seen it far too many times irl The made fun of Person often feels like they have to go along with it and laugh it off cause they’re being manipulated by their „friends“ and media to think this is normal behavior when it really isn’t, it’s still inconsiderate 🤷🏻♀️
What doesn't sit right with Nate is the internalized mysogyny you can catch in his reactions. He judges girls that love fashion and makeup, the "girly-girl" kinda type. You can see him so proud of Andy when she is being diminishing about these things too. He wants her to be "not like the other girls" because he does not respect women that like this kind of stuff and they are not valid to him. And the moment Andy starts to enjoy this fashion world, she loses that "special girl" value to his eyes. That's the part that makes me ick about him
This! This always irked me how he doesn't like the "new her" with new clothes in make up and interest in fashion. He loved his "not like other girls" girlfriend, and once she no longer fit that idea of her that he had, he didn't like it. But she couldn't win either way, if she try to dress more fashionably, she would get stares and criticism from her workplace. If she did dress up, Nate make snarky comments on how she's changed. I could go on about this topic, but I do think that this film did a decent job on sort of showcasing certain issues that women face both in society and in the workplace.
The thing that gets me the most is that she essentially warned them that it would be a year from hell but that, once it was done, she could calm things down again. They all implied they were behind her in this, but then as soon as the hell part started, they all left her hanging and got upset with her instead of giving her support. And I don't blame her for the flirting bit: someone complimenting you and making you feel good about yourself for once would be a nice break from what she goes home to which is a guy just dragging her through the mud for the already insanely stressful job she's dealing with. I'm not ok with cheating, but a little flirt never hurt anyone and can be a real confidence boost. She isn't perfect, I get that, but the way her friends and boyfriend treated her was just not ok.
She wasn't even late because of the flirting. She was leaving and Simon Baker's character tried to lure her back in with a career connection but she left for Nate. They had a 2 minute conversation on the steps but before then she was stuck to Miranda's side working
Agreed! At that point that guy seemed to show more support and validation than her friends so no wonder she felt some warmth towards him. But it's only seen as "bad Andy was cheating, what a skunk". So her friend's judgemental behavior becomes justified.
I have worked for several Miranda’s. I also was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and because of that I struggled. I struggled doing my job and also struggled because I was being emotionally, mentally, and physically beat down by a Miranda. I used to come home sobbing and blame myself… because it had to be my fault. Something was wrong with me because I struggled. When you called Andy a badass for succeeding in that type of work environment I need you to understand how much that validated and healed that part of me. Because I felt like such a failure but I didn’t. I quit those jobs because I couldn’t take anymore. I didn’t fail and I’m a badass. ❤
As a fellow ADHDer, diagnosed as an adult, who struggled in demanding work environments with a boss who wasn’t a good fit for me needs - I salute you 🫡
To me, what bothered me most about his (and all the friends') lack of understanding is that when Andy says "I don't have a choice", they don't consider her work environment, where disobeying or not performing at her best or not being on call at odd hours can mean she's fired in the blink of an eye. We start out the movie with her clearly struggling to find work, and this is a last ditch effort, and now that she does have this experience I'm sure it would be easier to find another job, but I feel like they don't take into account how stressful it is for Andy to try and KEEP this job, that pays well and has benefits/gifts for her friends. It's a toxic work environment, but it's one that has a lot of pros in addition to the cons. Also, the comment about "you used to make fun of those girls" feels so mean spirited - of course she would gain a new perspective once she's in their shoes and working with them closely! I don't know why it's a surprise to her friend group that she starts sympathizing with her coworkers, who are in the trenches with her and experiencing the evil boss alongside her. Andy experiences the cutthroat competition of it, but also recognizes that she was being unnecessarily mean and judgemental of these girls before she knew the, and I wish she'd explained a bit of that, humanized them more to her friends, who are still stuck in that mindset.
They were toxic BUT Andie didn't quit because of them. There's this misunderstanding that she quit the job at the end of the movie because she thought her friends were right and wanted to rejoin them. She didn't. Andie quit the job because she felt it wasn't ethical anymore. If she wanted to quit because of the friends, she would've done it before Paris. But she went ahead, so she was willing to drop them.
Agree with the folks stating that the movie only has Andy apologize even tho she was not the only problem but also, Nate’s field is definitely also demanding af and literally right after they break up he gets a better position in Boston so tbh, it’s giving he felt insecure not doing more toward his own ambitions and berated her for trying when he wasn’t really. Overall, he couldn’t be supportive for one year and he blamed her for that when he could’ve literally just said our lifestyles aren’t compatible right now but I wish you the best, and the movie rewards that behavior by forcing Andy to be the only one who apologizes. Hate that.
What took me out of the movie is the knowledge that the bf is a chef and actually had time to have a birthday party and be upset that his gf's job was demanding. From my limited knowledge of the food/restaurant industry, being a chef is extremely demanding, so the amount of free time he has in the film is unrealistic
I have the same problem I have with the last video, and this is a problem with the movie which leads to the problems with the analysis for me-there’s so much vilification or blaming of Andy for making these “choices,” when it’s IN THE MOVIE that Miranda will ruin people’s careers, and that this job is temporary. Miranda is toxic, and Andy has to adapt to thrive in this toxic environment which is bad, but people act like she could just quit and just ignore the phone and just not go to Paris, but the movie makes it clear if she does ANY of these things, her future is ruined by Miranda because Miranda makes those threats. Miranda makes a good recommendation for Andy because she had worked so hard and proven herself meaning all her sacrifices throughout the movie DID help her succeed like she intended. The fact Nate doesn’t understand this and isn’t supportive from the scenes we see is why he gets heat from the comments. Doesn’t mean he’s toxic, we know who the toxic one is, it’s that he misses the bigger picture. Short term suffering and risk for long term reward. Of course I think your analyses are correct as well. It’s just a very complicated topic and because we’re in such a work-motivated society, there’s gonna be a lot of discussion and disagreements. I think our generation (millenials) were taught such a grind mindset where we have to work and suffer toxic environments for success but the suffering is higher for a lower reward unlike our parents who worked hard but got properly incentivized for their hard work-and only recently that mindset seems to be changing with gen z calling out toxic work environments and how we’re not getting what we deserve from our hard work Andy made mistakes but I see them as her being a stressed person in a toxic environment giving her literal trauma, and her friends and boyfriend not helping her, and being upset when she starts being successful, which is a big Red flag to me. True it coulda been solved by a convo of “we’re happy youre successful but don’t let them turn you into a bad person” but that convo does not exist so as it is I think Andy simply outgrew her friends in a way. Doesnt make them toxic, just like you said, mediocre, and it didnt help andys situation
About your last paragraph: Andy's trauma is to big to be handled by her friends. -Also when Andy keeps saying "I don't ahve a choice" it dose come of as an excuse because part of her started to like this world which influences he choices but she never admits that, when saying "I don't have a choice."
As for Andy’s boyfriend’s behavior: I could understand his reaction to Andy’s behavior if she was going to work for Miranda indefinitely, but Andy repeatedly said she was only doing it for a year. He could have held out for a year. After that, things would have gone back to normal
Here's the thing. Like most people he isn't thinking about her and helping her realise where she stands. He is chastising her for not being who she was, telling her off for changing into someone else. Understandable. But not ok.
I'm calling malarkey on this. We all know that Miranda would make it impossible for Andy to get a job doing what she wants anywhere else if she messed up or quit. I think that her friends and boyfriend don't realise that she genuinely doesn't have a choice, and from their perspective it all just looks like excuses. I'm not saying that Andy doesn't make any mistakes, she absolutely does, but she really doesn't have as much choice as everyone keeps insisting that she does.
@@natkatmacyes but at that point she felt that if she didn't walk away she'd end up like Miranda, and it was essentially a choice between her morals and a dream life. She didn't expect Miranda to stand up for her after that
@@gilberttrancy7300 point that Jon and the movie itself is making is that the choice is always there even if she can't see it. She could've left earlier, could've seen how it was turning her into a worse person earlier. Inaction is as much of a choice as action is. Inaction has consequences just like action does. Like you said, she had no idea that Miranda would've given a recommendation so what choice does she think she's making at that moment that's different than every other day that she chose to work? It's the same choice, she just weighed the consequences differently. If you read the book, she doesn't get Miranda's recommendation. She has to move to another state and start over but still lives a happier life.
I think my biggest issue with Nate in his reaction to her not being available all the time, is that he works in a kitchen! Surely he understands the harsh realities of competitive jobs in big cities. Surely he has been unavailable in his personal relationships when he's had an opportunity at work. Kitchens are notorious for being run by demanding chefs and that everyone working in the kitchen will have to work reeeeeally long hours! So him being so rude and passive aggressive when she missed ONE birthday party....?! I'd love to know all the commitments he had to miss because of work. He strikes me as someone that's "do as I say not as I do". I just don't think either of them are mature enough to have the conversations that need to be had.
I wouldn't say they are toxic, but personally I think they were very fast to cut her off as soon as she did something they didn't agree with. Sounds like they only want to be her friends when she falls in line with their needs. They should definitely call her out for losing herself in this job, but what they did was get mad at her and make her feel guilty because their needs were not being met
Wow, reading the comments - I think a brilliant case has been made for the friends and boyfriend being toxic!! Y'all raised some great points!! A brief summary won't really do it much justice, but I'll try: - Nate's job as a chef being so demanding of his time, that he should be more sympathetic to Andy's situation - The lack of apology in the hot potato phone scene when the friends had crossed the line - The fact that her friends/ bf created an environment where Andy can't show that she is actually enjoying her job as time goes on, and that doing so is betraying who she really is - which leads on to a point, that since she was always ambitious, it's possible that her friends maybe never understood her (yikes!!) - The attitude of her friends/ bf wanting her to quit the job, just to spend more time with them is selfishly unrealistic, especially in today's climate (2024, in comparison to when the film came out, pre-2008-recession), when jobs that pay rent, in an expensive city are REALLY hard to come by, and it is very common to work for cruel bosses in jobs you don't necessarily enjoy. It is very common now for people to work long hours to make ends meet, but people don't take it out on their loved ones like the friends/ bf in TDWP - they are more empathetic and find ways to spend time together that fit around everyone's busy schedules. - The hypocrisy of gender roles with how the film ends: it's more acceptable for a man to be working late/ advancing his career and considered normal almost, in comparison to a woman doing the same thing (which ties into the first point). Nate inviting Andy to quit everything she's worked so hard for, to move with him for his new job, when he did not show that level of sacrifice/ support throughout the whole film. - A bit of sexism: it's bad for Andy to be girly and/or look pretty and care about her appearance. It just shouldn't bother Nate that much - the guy literally uses it as a dig at her, like looking pretty is a bad thing!! I think that is a VERY toxic trait in a relationship. - It's quite one sided: Andy goes on a journey of self-discovery and empathy by the end of the film, for the fashion industry, and her bf/ friends didn't change their views - Nate in particular looked down on the industry, and never grew to respect Andy's newfound appreciation for it. There are probably many more reasons, but these were the ones I saw mentioned the most and I agree with. In the video, I think the friends' actions on the surface/ face value might not seem so toxic as individual, isolated incidents, but when you take a step back, and see the whole picture you can kinda see a lack of respect and support for a hard working, ambitious main character, which to me crosses the line into being toxic, when you realise what they are asking of Andy in context.
The boyfriend and friends honestly make me so angry in this movie. Andy is doing what she needs to do to get to where she wants to be. "I didn't have a choice" okay so the choice is do what is expected of her at work or risk losing her job, her reference, and quite possibly putting a black mark on her overall goals. So yes, if she wants to keep those things, she needs to dress the part. She needs to work late. She might miss things. She's got to mingle at parties with (hot or not) people in her field. I honestly don't see any of these personality changes that people accuse her of. She's giving gifts. She's bringing her boyfriend a cupcake to celebrate as soon as she gets home. She's at her friend's art show giving her love. They are not toxic but they ARE extremely unsupportive, and in that way they are really not being good friends. Andy is in an abusive relationship with her boss. And when someone you love is in an abusive relationship, it is so important to be there for them, be understanding. Listen to them, let them vent. Getting angry with the person being abused only alienates that person more and makes it harder. It's really sad, honestly.
The point of the telephone scenne is that they accept gifts from her work, talk about how they love it but then, disrespect it, play with it. Is like going to a friends house, eating her mom' s food, sleeping there and enjoying all the things she would offer, but when your friend is at your house and her momma calls you start to make moan sounds.
I feel like what upset me most was that there was a very definite point where Andy would leave this job from the very beginning, which was only a year. They all knew, she'd have to put up with this stress and the immense workload for only a year and afterwards she'd get to choose her dream career. But they couldn't support her and be lenient for some of the balls she dropped during that time? So what if she missed a party or a birthday or whatever it is that she missed. She'll be there next year. And the year after. While she's thriving in a job she truly loves. If you can't support your friend and appreciate the effort they put in to make up for the pressure of their job for a year, you're kind of an a-hole. And also what others have already said: Nate is never shown to be wrong. He's so condescending and doesn't even try to understand what it is that Andy starts to enjoy about her work. For him it's all just silly vapid fashion nonsense that is not worth his time. And then she goes back to him in the end without him having to apologise or anything. Infuriating.
Thank you! Nate does not take a second to see what is it about this job she is starting to enjoy, why has she changed. He acts like she has no right to change and I think Andy doesn't feel like she can talk to him about this "girly" stuff. He was set in his ways. Also when he says "with a little dignity"-dignity according to who? Him?
I know what it's like when your partner doesn't understand what your job is about and what it means to you. I am an opera singer who was in a long-distance relationship. The guy insisted on me coming to live with him but I explained it wasn't possible because his country didn't offer full-time employment in my profession. He kept saying that I should quit and go work in an office. For him a job is just a job. But for me it was something extremely important. And yes, my choice was to stay on my job. Boyfriends come and go while your life and opportunities you get are what stays with you forever.
To me the “toxicity” comes across even more if you extrapolate their behaviour outside of the scenes. Nate especially in the bday scene basically waits for her to come home only to demonstratively go to bed, and this is just childish and unnecessary. He was frustrated and he wanted her to feel as bad as he did. Regarding the friends they at no point say “you can do this. It’s hard but it’s just a few more months.” Instead they are making it even harder for her and are only positive when they reap the benefits. I guess what I’m trying to say is we only get a few snippets of their interactions and maybe if that was all then it would be fine, but we can assume that that was their behaviour through the year (only a year might I add). Andy changed because she had to. Otherwise her job would have been even more miserable than it already was. And at a time when she is just trying to survive at work instead of picking her up her friends are just stepping down on her.
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In real life accountability caused family disfunction fighting over who should held accountable .and not looking for solutions .and making them unable to account for all factors. Holding yourself to own standards is more important
They should watch to "Maquia: When the Promised Flower Blooms" I sometimes can't even understand the emotions behind what's going on, maybe cause I'm a boy. But I am sure the message is the idea of "The meaning of being a mother" and it tackles so many other aspects and so much going on in the movie. It's really a movie for mothers, and the heartbreaking moments; it’s some real powerful and complex stuff. Like the NOs AND YESs at extreme moments. It’s honestly a Shakespeare's tragedy. “It’s my Hibiol.” (dub and sub are both great) 😊 👍
Hope you guys can look at IF at some point. Just saw it yesterday and really loved it.
Suggestions for Toxic or Not:
Stanley Kowalski from Street Car named Desire. Phyaically and psychologically Abusive, controlling, a possible (probable) r****t, seems like an open and shut case.
Danny Zuko from Grease.
Controlling, manipulative, doesn't know how to take no for an answer, forces significant other to change her entire personality to be with him.
sorry this is off topic, but I’ve never been this early to a vid before and noticed you responding to comments 😂
family counseling request: Everybody Love Raymond………. unless it doesn’t quite hit your demographic 😂 I grew up with it ☺️👍 would really help me
(if you’ve done it/patreon let me know!)
The most unrealistic thing about Andy's boyfriend is he had no idea what it was like to work for a Demon of a boss, even though he is a Sous-Chef in early 2000s NYC.
Maybe he got lucky and had a nice boss.
@@sawanna508*snorts*
I don’t know how he has time to be hurt and have time at night to do things. All the shows I’ve watched about restaurant work is that they’re always working.
He probably doesn't work in a very good restaurant seeing how he fails in making a grilled cheese sandwich
This. Chefs could be (and frankly still are) absolutely awful, especially to a just cook on the line. There’s no way he hadn’t had at least one boss he hated but yearned approval from. There’s zero empathy.
Doug is the only one of Andy's friends who is consistently supportive. He is excited for her when she gets the job, recognises the possible benefits and happy for her when she gets to go to Paris. Very much a Doug apologist
All hail the Doug!
It's a shame we don't get more of him! (Nate makes a sexist comment toward him too, if I remember correctly.)
@@jdb101585 he can work for Miranda, Andy can do her journalism thing, they can move in together and Nate and Lisa can touch grass
@@oliviamackenzie9725 who is Lisa?
@@jenbialek the girl who gets a free Marc Jacobs bag then plays keep away with her phone
I think a big reason that people want to point out any perceived toxicity from her friends or boyfriend is because in the realm of the movie, the lesson is entirely Andy’s to learn when, as y’all have pointed out, neither side is perfect . But while we see Andy come to some realizations at the end we don’t really get to see her boyfriend or friends behave differently by the end of it.
Very good point.
Yes. Look, people are messy and therefore relationships are messy sometimes. But she seems to be the only one who learns that her messiness is hurting people (and the only one of the friend group who gets called out on a regular basis) and she's the one who has to take accountability, whereas ... the rest of them just don't. That blows.
@@adinaholmes5269protagonist privilege
Oh wow, it's almost like the movie is about ANDY and ANDY's character arc and ANDY's relationship with Miranda, and Andy's friends and boyfriend who get a collective 10 minutes of screentime are all just set dressing to Andy's story. It's almost like this movie about Andy's story was trying to tell that specific story in 1.5 hours and the writers and directors didn't think "You know what would really make this movie fantastic, is if we give Andy's 1-dimensional friend characters arcs and personal growth of their own." Good god.
@@GoddoDoggo For someone all up in all the comments telling other people that they don't know how anything works for wanting some form of resolution, you're pretty dense. They wouldn't need a character arc, just a handful of lines of dialogue or even some looks of introspection. The friends can be forgiven by the film, but her boyfriend is a pretty big part. He's basically the same person at the end when Andy has had an entire journey, and the audience is just told that's okay. He doesn't have to be accountable for the way that he acted because she was in the wrong and she changed, but they were both in the wrong. Just reworking the end a little would have given that a much more satisfying resolution, even if that meant showing that sometimes change can split people up (and that's okay). People aren't being ridiculous just because they have different opinions to you.
Here's the issue I have with the hot potato phone scene: when Andy storms off, instead of looking guilty (if surprised) at realizing they crossed a line, her friends share a look of "jeez, what's wrong with her?". It doesn't feel like _they_ feel like they did an oopsie - more like they were just joking around and Andy's overreacting.
this.
I didn't really see it that way? I thought they were confused because she's been the one complaining about her job and boss the most. Her outburst made them surprised. You don't have to jump to a negative conclusion like that.
@@zopiranha3871 No. In this scene, Andy made it very clear that there is more to Prada magazine than plain aesthetics. Watch again. They chose not to listen and glisten over the gifts she got them. Andy showed growth and her friend's showed hypocrisy. The main comment is right, they looked at her without taking any accountability for stepping her work boundaries. Even if this scene did not show Andy's end of her job mockery, they chose to hot potato her very stressful job like it's a joke. It is still stepping over boundaries.
@zopiranha3871 i disagree because they literally just played hot potato with her work phone, while her boss is calling her. You'd have to be a child to think that's funny and not understand why she's justifiably upset.
Even if you dislike your job, and complain about it, it's still your job. They know Miranda is temperamental and could possibly fire Andi for missing that call.
EXACTLY. she also made it VERY clear throughout the keep-away that she was very much NOT laughing with them and was upset.
I saw someone say on Twitter that the fakest thing about this movie is all the free time Nate has! He's a chef in NY! He more than anyone else should understand Andy's crazy schedule!
I think that he works the graveyard shift ( I also read the book) that's why he has so much free time.
@@UnashamedCaliforniagirleven if it is the graveyard shift, even if he's just a line cook, that's easily 10+ hours a day. It's not just cooking when the restaurant is open, it's the hours of prep they do after closing, the hours of prep they do before they open. Like a chef, who is trying to make it into fine dining like he is, would be working insane hours. Weekends, holidays, gone.
The telephone scene is what changed things for me too. You don't mess with someone's livelihood.
I agree. Everyone knows that when you have a call or message that is work related, is hands off. You don't play with someone's livelihood. And as adults, Andy's friends should have known that, they are not children. Would they have done that if Nate's boss called for a double shift at the restaurant or Lily at the art gallery?
that and nate saying "like this job was forced on you." HE KNOWS this job is her best shot at getting the job - no, the CAREER - she ACTUALLY wants so in a way, yes, it WAS forced on her. because what's the alternative? what is he actually asking her to do? quit this job, which will become a giant black mark on her resume, and pay the bills with pole dancing instead because somehow that equals "integrity" to him but runway doesn't.
@@elenacosta5634 I've never heard of being fired for missing a phone call for 10 seconds. Usually people should assume that if it takes time to pick up your phone, they're prolly in the WC or cooking or anything else. Their only fault was for being so slow to notice that she wasn't in on the fun - which I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that everyone here does from time to time, whether you realise it or not. Though I don't agree with Jono that calling them assholes in such a situation is bad, it's just calling out someone on their behaviour while dumping her stress on them for something that they caused themselves - AKA they totally earned the insult. The fact that they all went quiet after that means they got the message.
@@banner156 In a regular job with a decent boss, you wouldn't lose your job over a missed phone call, you're right. But this is Miranda, a toxic boss. Andy showed anxiety over always needing to answering her calls. Also, Lily was saying she was gonna answer the phone, which would have made Andy look unprofessional. But of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours.
@@banner156also remember who Andy’s boss is. A lot of ground work is placed in the movie about how awful Miranda is. It’s completely plausible that she could be fired if she didn’t pick up the phone.
Main argument I would put forth on the 'toxic' actions of her friends is, after taking the hot potato phone too far is that they do it knowing Andy is already stressed by the job, they don't apologise after pushing a joke too far, AND they don't actually thank Andy for the gifts she gives them.
Maybe its just the brit in me, but Andy calling them a-holes in that moment was 100% valid a reaction.they don't apologise after pushing a joke too far.
They were being assholes. There's no other way around it.
She ran out though, there wasn’t exactly a chance to talk. Andy changed as a person and she didn’t let the others know or explained it.
It takes seconds to apologise or even gesture an apology and frankly, it shouldn't take an adult to be called out to realise you don't take anyone's work phone away. If my friends ever did anything of the sort, not only would I tell them to sod off, I would reestablish boundaries with the warning that the next strike is 'out' of my life.@glockenrein
Absolutely. I think the worst part is actually right after she takes the phone back and they can see she is genuinely upset, so there's no excuse anymore for them not realizing it didn't land as a joke, but they just laugh, and that is not just disrespectful but is actual bullying.
@@glockenrein they could call out a quick sorry instead of laughing at her
I think the reason that the phone scene annoyed me so much is that they are basically mocking the very job that allowed her to give them thousands of dollar's gifts. It's not just insensitive it's ungrateful and rude
Yes. Thank you for putting that feeling of frustration and discomfort into words!
they are mocking her job cause andy herself is mocking her job. she literally does it every time and her friends are jumping in thinking they are being supportive not really thier fault andy is in denial of how much that job is important to her
ANDY is the one who mocks her job to her friends ALL THE TIME. If one of your friends was constantly moaning about how much they hated their job and how stupid everyone is there, and you replied saying "Yeah you're right, screw your job!" would you not be pretty shocked and annoyed when they reacted really defensively?
Yes! God it annoyed me EVERY time! If a friend gave me an expensive gift because their boss didn’t want it, the LAST thing I’m going to do is go, “yeah screw them!” What kind of logic is that?
Also, just because Andy makes fun of her job doesn’t mean other people get to. To me, it’s like The Sibling Argument. Only *I* can make fun of my siblings and call them every horrible name under the sun. Anyone else tries, it’s offensive and grounds to get punched
@@itamongush3076 People conveniently forget that part. She mocks her job, but then turns around and drops to her hands and knees as soon as Miranda's presence is even hinted upon.
She is portraying a certain character during almost any interaction with the other people, except when Miranda is somehow directly involved. It's sending very mixed messages to these other people in her life. Jono mentioned this multiple times; she's not being honest with her friends, Nate, or even Herself about her true feelings around this job. If she had portrayed a greater air of seriousness for the work itself from the moment she started genuinely taking it seriously, much of these interactions could have gone way differently.
That being said - nobody touches my phone without my permission. Absolutely. Nobody. But perhaps this is standard shenanigans for Andy's friend circle? I certainly can't get behind that - people throwing my phone around would immediately send me into anxiety overload.
Andy, an award-winning student journalist at Northwestern, moved to NYC to become a professional journalist. She was ALWAYS ambitious, and her early working years were always going to be exactly what we see on screen. Exchange the fashion industry for the news and she might have gotten a less toxic boss, but her role would have been no less demanding. Perhaps Andy's friends didn't understand her from the beginning.
This!!! Exactly!
yes !!
Exactly!
A few years ago I went to study abroad. A dream of mine for years. The friends who were happy for me were my true friends, those pissed off and grumpy I wouldn't be around as much for them signed red for me, and they proved crappy friends not too long after.
Misunderstanding someone is not active toxicity, though. It’s a mistake. As someone who makes those a lot, I empathize
As a sociology student I am asking myself if we are so more unforgiving because it's a woman who thrives in work instead of a man. We are so used to see men living for their careers while their wifes usually see their husbands less than their work collegues. Yes, those relations still have their hardships, but we are way more forgiving if men are busy with work because it's for their career. But if a woman is doing it she is not hardworking, but neglecting. That's actually proven by divorces back in the days, where a man can seperate because the women is not fullfilling her "marital work".
As a man, We are way too forgiving of men who do this. I tell friends all the time that they need to carefully consider career choices based on the impact that will have on their family, and then have them be surprised when their relationships suffer because they choose to take a job with longer hours and lots of travel. Sure, someone on the financial margins needs to take what they can get and make do.
But too many men feel like being successful and making more money for their family justifies any commitment, and that's just not true. I've been telling my manager for a decade that I won't accept "more hours" as a requirement. If I work long hours this month, I am taking time next month. There are just too many non-work things I care about. Andy is starting out a career and trying to get something highly competitive. She is planning on doing this for a year. But that is STILL incredibly hard on relationships. I know guys in investment, legal, or medical fields whose marriages don't survive the first year because of stuff like this.
But you're RIGHT. When a guy does it, as a culture we tend to forgive it more than when a woman does it. And that's wrong. In both directions, we need to understand that people have needs from their partner and that spending all of your time working might mean we are not fulfilling those needs.
@@kenamelio4596 Here's also the counterargument for all of what you said.
It's also largely expected for the man to do it because if he doesn't, the wife/girlfriend will often-times just walk away, because they're losing that income that he was making or wasn't making because he did not put in the hours.
Hell, I'm watching my SO right now kill himself to get money gathered to build a house for the two of us. I can't do anything because I'm not actively living with him yet, and he can barely afford any of it due to the high cost of rent, etc.
Ohh u love that line, not hard work but neglecting. That’s really astute
@@kenamelio4596 To be honest I think working yourself to the bone is a bad thing no matter your gender.
I agree with you in life, but in this particular genre of movies I'm not so sure, I feel like the "working all the time not showing up for his girlfriend's birthday" is the bad guy in every romance movie. In a gender-reversed adaption, I'm not sure the public would be much more sympathetic towards "male Andy"
I think the reason people feel like Nate is so toxic is because the film language of the movie kind of paints him as 100% in the right. Like, he is never shown to apologize for his behavior or any of his sniping. He comes across as if he was always right, and Andy just had to come around to it, and they get back together in the end after a bunch of self discovery and growth on Andy’s part, and seemingly none of that on Nate’s part. It feels unbalanced, and it rankles, especially as a woman, bc we are societally expected to always be the one that sacrifices and forgives, and to never been the burden on the relationship. Like if TDWP was gender swapped it would feel hella different.
^ This.
Where your not wrong we as don't see things from his side. This isn't like some love stories where we get both sides of the lovers' story. When you look at a story from one side, it can feel that way. Like everyone is against the main character. We don't see the other sides' pain. Let's be honest how would you feel if you were him dealing with what he is dealing with
let's not forget she is flirting with another while in a relationship. A guy she sleeps with almost as soon as she splits from her boyfriend. which shows she was emotionally cheating. In some way, her boyfriend is right.
Perfectly expressed. The movie portrays it as if his and her other friends treatment of her was unimpeachable decade their concerns were well founded. No one ever apologized to her for basically shaming for basically having a demanding job. Sure, she lost herself a little in it and had to recenter. But, it wasn’t her boyfriend or her friends place to berate her and ridicule her for it.
Yeah *this* 🙌🏼
Yes! The ending is what feels so off to me. I think both Nate and Andy do a bad job at communicating what they need and how they might move forward through these changes. So to just have the ending be, Andy quits her job and they get back together, it doesn't resolve any of their issues. Are they actually going to communicate with each other now? If Andy wants to invest in her career, will Nate be able to support her through that? Who knows! Because we didn't actually see their relationship grow.
I'm not an expert on toxicity, but the phone scene is just hard to watch. Andy is clearly panicking, pleading with them to return it. If one of my friends was yelling "no no no" over and over again with that facial expression and tone of voice, I'd stop whatever I was doing to them immediately. But her friends never stop. Andy makes them stop by grabbing her phone. The problem isn't that they could have gotten her fired. It's that they pay no attention to her very obvious distress.
I feel this way, too.
She gave them thousands of dollars worth of gifts, they didn’t say thank you, they didn’t say sorry and her boyfriend was being a jerk.
Are you telling me you have NEVER in your entire life mistakenly taken someone's behavior as "messing around" when they were actually being serious? Or got so caught up in a moment that you didn't immediately react in the best way? Or didn't realize until much later that you did or said something crappy? Because if you're claiming that, I do not believe you. Yes, Andy's friends acted in a crappy, impulsive way during the phone scene. That does not make them "toxic." If it does, then literally every human on the planet is "toxic," including you.
I agree - she just bought them gifts and she's clearly very distressed and they don't stop. To me that is a bit of asshole thing to do. She could've gotten fired over it. The stakes are high for her and they still don't feel they were wrong when she walks off - they laugh at her. Cruel imo.
@GoddoDoggo yeah, done that as a minor. But as an adult this is crazy behavior
Playing Hot Potato with Andie's mobile wasn't an intervention - it was ABSOLUTELY disrespectful. If I disagree with a friend's choices, I don't sabotage those choices; I try to discuss my concerns like an adult. If she still disagrees with me, it's her life. Then I'm the one who gets to decide if I still want to be friends. But I don't force her hand.
Except it's not "sabotage" cause friends aren't omnipotent beings. People don't generally get fired for not immediately taking a phone call, why would the friends assume the consequences would be so severe. Also, as already given in context, they're not exactly the most mature people and are pretty used to ribbing eachother
I agree, it was disrespectful. But, to these friends, this is something that is commomplace, they've probably done this exact thing to Andy before and it has been a funny joke. Now that Andy is working for the devil herself, this phone call is a huge deal, and her friends don't get that yet. It's a situation where her friends fell back on tradition, and that was a huge no-no in this case.
@@finnpeterson4335 I completely agree with this take. It's obvious that they intend no disrespect to her here. It's a common thing for them. And the focus of the joke is Miranda, not Andy. But things have changed and they didn't realize. They were surprised when she was upset. They should apologize for overstepping, but to be fair, they didn't realize that's what they were doing. People really aren't omniscient.
@@ivanehtnoij6243 Her boss is Miranda. They KNOW this. And Nate specifically already knows how stressed she is about it. And on top of that her female friend wanted to pick up which would have put Andy in a very uncomfortable spot and made her look unprofessional. Like you'd have to be an utter idiot to not understand how this can indeed get her fired. Especially since she is new at the job. How are people too damn dense to understand that.
@@finnpeterson4335I’ll start this by saying these are fictional people in a made up story, so anything I say is also an assumption, but I find it interesting you’ve decided they’ve probably done this with Andy before the job so this was normal, lighthearted behavior before. It’s an interesting take, and makes them less caricatures of shitty friends, which is what I’ve always seen them as. To me, what I see is Andy becoming enmeshed in a world that not only she looked down on and made fun of, but her bf admitted to doing with her and presumably so did her friends. I think they all saw her becoming the thing they all made fun of without considering the sacrifice she knew she needed to make to get where she wanted to go. To me, this reads as Andy growing, and her friends staying the same. And because of that, Andy became part of the group of people they all at one time looked down on and made fun of. There seems to be a loss of respect towards Andy and an inability or unwillingness to understand what is happening with her. The frustrating thing in this film is that the onus is entirely on Andy to be humbled and realize her wrongs, but no one else owns up to also being dicks and realizing they needed to be more understanding of where she was at.
So I was in Andy's position twice in my life. First time as an office coordinator and second time as a PA to a General Manager. I was stressed, I always had to carry my phone with me, I had to cancel on my friends and family many times. And you know how my BF and my friends reacted to this? They showed support. My boyfriend prepared little snacks for me to enjoy during the work day, helped with running errands when I was too stressed, told me every day that I was amazing at my job and hobbies. He knew how stressed I was - and decided not to add to it, and that I have to come to the conclusion of this chapter in my life on my own without him nagging all the time. This is why I can't stand Nate. Because I've seen how it should be, and that I would have snapped if my boyfriend had this attitude.
That's how an adult acts. Nate acts like a manbaby
Everyone is different. I don’t think it’s reasonable to always expect the people in your life to be so tolerant of not being a priority. Not that you were a bad person for having a busy life, but sometimes people do genuinely feel disconnected and in this case I feel like there could have been better communication. It’s not on Nate to just suck up his feelings and wait indefinitely until it gets better though.
@@stephenpaul668 Thing is though, Andy said she was only going to have this job for a year so she'd be set in the industry (so Nate definitely would not have had to wait indefinitely) and there was never any point in the movie where Nate showed understanding or sympathy. It was evident how time-consuming this job was for Andy and how high stress it was for her so if he really wanted to be a good partner, he'd be patient and understand that the job isn't like anything Andy's had before. No one's saying Nate needs to suck up his feelings, he get the point across how he feels multiple times in the movie (very tersely, at that) but again he rarely showed a semblance of caring or understanding towards Andy's position.
@@dane3183 , asking someone who needs their partner to be present to deal with a year of essential absenteeism isn't fair either. And he also has no good reason to believe it will only be for a year. They absolutely need to have a conversation about their paths and decide whether they are still aligned, and to do so without blame or shame. As pointed out in the video, at the start of the movie he very clearly showed indications of caring and listening. But he wasn't able to handle the absence and unreliability that her new job required. And jobs like that absolutely end relationships for people all the time in all kinds of industry. It is something to talk very carefully with about current and potential partners and make sure you understand how or if you can manage it relationally.
You have good people in your life
all i know is that i DEFINITELY WOULD NOT LIKE to have friends who are like that.
I had friends like that in my 20s… thankfully my ex-husband kept them in the divorce, so they can treat his mistress the same and not me anymore 😂
I think that the root of Andie's problems with her boyfriend/friends is that they think they are "too good" for the fashion world, and don't respect as a industry at all (but they like the benefits, like we saw with the presents). That's why Andy struggles to accept who she's becoming and tries to hide it, and that's why everyone is always praying on the "old Andie".
I was scrolling down to see if I should point this myself. Andy eventually becomes more humble and start to respect her cowokers taking the job seriously. But her friends are never taking amoment to say "sorry I should not look down at what you do." If they were a high school group they will be the kind who says "stop! people are going to think you really like to study. Since when you like school? are you turning into a nerd?"
Actually I like that. A Devil's Wear Prada versions, where Andy is only getting a recommendation to go to university if she join the math team. If we follor the same arc she should quit the team before the final competition and tell her ex "sorry, I should have continued party with you guys, even the nights before a test. I truly lost myself".
@@jessicav931 Even though it's a great comparison, I don't think it would really work. It is essentially the same thing, but I think because it's about her career and she's an adult it's just viewed differently by people. Like I don't think anyone would question doing something you hate in order to put yourself into a better position as a child, because that's just expected of you. You're probably treated like an idiot if you don't do that thing, whatever it is. "Think of your future!" But for some reason there's such a stigma over changing yourself for your career, like it's some horrific betrayal of all of the other aspects of your life. There is no real difference and yet there is, it's so weird.
@jessicav931 Andy lost her sense of self and lost her integrity in this movie. I think that was the main issue. I wouldn't say that's a fair comparison.
He said it himself, it wouldn't matter as long as she did it with integrity.
i mean she's a recent college grad she should be allowed to change. theyre all in their 20s they would change
@@beverlyrodriguez3456 While Nate said that, I don't think he was being honest with himself there. He was constantly making fun of the fashion industry, and didn't like that she was no longer bashing them.
I feel like this movie shows how a Toxic individual like Miranda can also negatively affect those around her and how it affects those individuals in their personal relationships.
Or just how a toxic work environment in general and over-emphasis on work can drag down your friends and family. Movies in this era have a lot of anti-work, pro-family propaganda in them and while I get it, even as a kid I always thought it was kind of... immature.
Yes, work is not everything and family is important, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to be successful. Some people find joy in their work. If that's the kind of person Andy is, there's nothing wrong with being supportive of that, but of course at the same time there is a case to be made about how the real world works and how people can get trapped in their jobs and neglect their families.
I don't think *this* movie does a good job of making the case that a job isn't everything, because the supporting characters are being a little petty, but I do think overall the idea is fine. I know it kind of sounds like I feel the opposite, but it's just that I feel movies do a shit job of emphasizing the problems with work culture. The main character who works too much is always criticized while his family lives in a two-story house with a massive dining room. How do you people think you got all of that? They always take for granted what their family member has worked for and seem to want them to get fired from their job just so they can attend an after-school event. It's bizarrely-handled in almost every movie. Bad writing, I guess.
That's so true! Like a ripple effect. It happened to me.
@@LucifronzThe movie is fascinating because on one hand, Miranda is so demanding, but there is one scene that doesn’t involve Andy at all.
The scene was brainstorming session, where Miranda scoffed at redundancy (florals for spring), yet is genuinely pleased with Nigel when he has a great idea (Zac Posen sculptural suits photographed at the Noguchi Gardens.)
Why would the filmmakers dedicate screen time to this moment when it doesn’t involve Andy at all? I think they wanted to show that while she’s a real taskmaster, Miranda is really good at her job and is passionate towards Runway’s mark on the fashion industry.
@@reikun86 I watched a whole youtube video recently that asked exactly this question and did a full breakdown of the scene.
@@Lucifronz here's the thing: this movie came out in 2006. we've had financial crisis on top of financial crisis ever since. no one gets two-story houses anymore (or even just the smallest sense of accomplishment), working demanding jobs for shit pay that barely covers rent. this movie aged in a really unfortunate way. in our current time, the real life Mirandas are reaping the benefits, while every Andy slaving under their company can't even afford to get their stress-induced illnesses checked out by a doctor.
edit: and in regards to having a choice, which is what the boyfriend and the friends seem to bring up as criticism; movie Andy doesn't really give the impression that she'd be in serious trouble without the job. a real life Andy doesn't have the luxury of choice... take the job with the shitty boss or face poverty. again, this movie didn't age well.
‘Lying to them and herself because she doesn’t want to admit she likes her job now’ - my perspective is that she feels she *cant* be honest with her friends. Any time she tries, talking with excitement about her job, she gets sneers and jeers and hostility.
She’s not “betraying their morals” by being excited by/enjoying being good at her new job. She’s being punished for going against the group culture of denigrating her workplace and job type. Rather than open their minds, they try to stomp her back into their little box. That’s what makes them toxic friends.
Even if they're not toxic over that, they are incredibly immature and closed minded. I often think reflecting on it that they feel threatened by her success.
My thoughts exactly. Feels like she is not admitting the changes out of fear of losing people she loves, and this can be a very powerful motivation to hide things not only from others, but also from yourself.
Like she could be realizing that her sexual orientation is not what she thought it was, and her friends kept telling homophobic jokes.
@@somethingcloudy_somethingclear tbf it's more like if Andy was more than happy to tell homophobic jokes with her friends and then starts realizing she's not straight and feels like she can't be honest with them because they keep telling homophobic jokes even when she's kinda trying to put feelers out that it's not all bad.
Also personal aside but your hypothetical scenario is why I broke things off with my one friend. People feel way to comfortable telling homophobic jokes.
100% agree with DeadDancers
This is a laughably bad and shortsighted reading of their relationship. They aren't being toxic in the slightest. It's 100% true that Andy is not being honest with either them or herself. Her friends are not as understanding as they could be, but that's not inherently toxic. They're ALL in a position of needing to grow and become better.
I just rewatched The Devil Wears Prada last week and I don't know if I'm wrong or not but, besides hurting because Nate misses and loses Andy in a way, I also senses that he is kinda jealous of Andy, that Andy is thriving and growing
I'm firmly convinced this is a big part of Nate's issues with Andy throughout the film, but no one ever talks about it
I agree it's something about a woman making more than her partner that does something to some men I've seen it so many times
I don't see it at all. At some point we have to question ourselves if we're not projecting our views of men and relationship onto characters, since I personally found his pettines start resurfacing as her job started becoming more important and taking more of her time that she would usually be spending with him. If he was jealous, then he was jealous of Andy spending more time on her job than with him.
Agreed. It takes a very secure man to be happy for his partner to ascend past him in their ambitions.
Agreed. I can’t put my finger on it (haven’t watched the movie recently) but I do remember getting the same feeling that he’s resentful/jealous that she’s managed to thrive despite the toxicity around her. And then he uses what makes her insecure (things like she’s all about the looks and sacrificing her original dreams of becoming a “serious” writer … which, btw, people can change their dreams & opinions) to hurt her because it makes him feel powerful/macho.
I still don't get the Emily thing? Emily is literally UNABLE to go. She is in the hospital. Why is it such an issue that Andy steps in and goes instead? Miranda is going to need an assistant, so why is it an issue that Andy is going?
It's an issue because:
1. Miranda had chosen Andy to go to Paris before Emily was in the accident- but hadn't told Emily herself yet.
2. Emily probably sensed that she might not be chosen to go to Paris and was working extra hard to try to keep in Miranda's good graces, and that's when she got into the accident and had to go to the hospital.
3. Then, when Andy visited her, Andy told her that Miranda had picked her and not Emily to go. She knew she couldn't go due to the injuries, and now Andy makes it worse by confirming that Miranda hadn't chosen her anyway- so her efforts to try to work hard were not going to be rewarded, she was rushing around and got into the accident "for no reason" and basically she's just mad at Andy too, for being newer at the job and better at it than her.
So maybe most of those things are reasons that Emily should be mad at Miranda, but she misplaces that anger onto Andy. (And it's understandable. It's easier to be angry at Andy instead of the all-powerful Miranda who can fire her and keep her from getting other jobs on a whim. She has to behave for Miranda, but can be mad at Andy all she wants.)
@@crazybiogeekOoooh, I just asked the same question in another comment, thank you for explaining. My only pushback would be that Andy says she was chosen, but I didn't understand it as her confirming it was decided before Emily's accident, just sating something that happened because there was no denying it, so I feel like it is even less her fault
@@crazybiogeekit was not Andy's decision though
This is entirely off-topic, but I actually cried laughing when I noticed the Bella and Edward poster that says, "My magic sex will fix broken boy." 😂
Y'all are incredible.
That should have been the real poster for the last movie. It sums up the whole series perfectly😄
@turnipcrazy4602 they are rebooting the book series into an animated TV series (because, money). If they lean into the absurdity of what those books actually are, then I will most definitely be watching!
YES! I literally just noticed that myself
@@aubreezily13 Same, I want absurd melodramatic vampires and wolves. They need to go over the top!
@@aubreezily13 was the books different from the movies?
Listened to the whole video, and I have to disagree. Asshole was the exact right word to use. Her friends were being assholes. In the telephone scene, they were completely ignoring her autonomy and distress. That is the kind of behavior that would make me lose trust in someone.
But the word people use is toxicity. And they prove that they were not toxic friends, just mediocre.
@@davidleon3453 They're borderline toxic. They're worse than mediocre, but just above toxic, and that's a very slim margin.
I think in the scene where they were playing "phone hot potato," the friends were still acting on old patterns and not realizing how legitimately stressed Andy was. They thought "we'll just do the thing we always do" and did it, but no one was checking in with how Andy wasn't playing along this time and was just getting more and more upset. It's a form of groupthink I've seen happen in friends groups, and it sucks. (It's not necessarily their FAULT, but it's a matter of inattention that can lead to real hurt.) If anything, I think if there had been an honest, meaningful conversation after that scene, that things might have gone differently for the friends group.
Honestly, I think that was needed throughout the film: honest and open conversations. Starting with Andy. I would’ve sat down with Nate and said, “While my job is very stressful, I decided to ingratiate myself into the culture of my job to better perform. And I’m doing that by adapting my wardrobe.” (Nate admitted that himself; the outfit Andy wore to the interview was not it.) And look what happened? After she stopped being so judgmental about the fashion world, Miranda, the clackers, etc, she started performing well at her job. She started gaining confidence. She got in contact with a guy who could help further her writing career, which is what she wants to do!
Now as times goes on and her job expects more of her, I think Andy should’ve gone to Nate and expressed how upset she feels that her job is pulling her away from him. Maybe they could’ve set aside a little bit of time every day for the two of them. Sit and talk, have a little home cooked meal, rant session about their jobs, etc. and she could’ve reminded him that it was only for a year. And from there Nate could’ve decided if he was willing to stick it out with her for a year knowing how demanding her job was.
I agree with Dr. Decker that Andy needed to be more honest with herself, particularly when Miranda asked her to deliver the book (she was addressed by her name!) and when she was able to pull of Miranda’s impossible task. Also, she could’ve told Nate and her friends about Christian A LOT earlier. It would’ve made things easier.
Well to be fair there's no way to have that conversation because she left to immediately contact her boss.
But I agree overall with your assessment. They were trying to be playful and wound up being thoughtless by following old patterns without thinking about how Andy was actually reacting this time.
That’s what I’ve always thought. It wasn’t malicious and I don’t think they expected or wanted the outcome. I think Andy legitimately changed a lot as a person and the others weren’t expecting it.
But they already know how stressed Andy is about the job and who her Boss is. Especially Nate. Absolutely their fault therefore.
@@DM-nw5lu yes i think they had heard her say it out loud that her job was stressful, but up until that moment they hadnt really seen it or internalised it yet
I think there's also something to be said about the environment that Andy's friends and boyfriend created; how can they expect her to be honest and proud about this newfound passion when they "used to make fun of the fashion girls, and now [she's] one of them". She's coming into this with a fear of judgement from the people who are meant to be supporting herm on top of all the stress and fear of failure from her job. (Also that line about the 'fashion girls' irks me for its sexism)
When describing playful banter among friends you mentioned consent as a major part of it, so I was surprised you didn't mention that in the hot potato phone scene, Andie was not consenting to that banter which inherently changed the dynamic of it.
+1
yup. she was CLEARLY in distress.
Build your case.
Okay, Nate is a chef. As someone who's worked the line almost as long as Jono has been a therapist, let me speak on that experience a little.
You don't get birthdays. Or holidays. Or weekends or evenings. It's not uncommon to work 13-16 hour days, six days a week. Your schedule is different to almost everyone else around you. You miss anniversaries. You miss graduations. Valentines day? Don't even think to ask.
Most days, you wake up with only enough time to grab coffee. As soon as you step in the door, you start *moving* and prepping food like a crazy person. You're running up and down stairs from the kitchen to the walk-in stressing about getting everything you'll need for the night assembled, portioned, seasoned, held at the right temperature. 4 hours pass and you would swear it's only been one. You still haven't really eaten anything. You've tasted a lot of things, then added more salt. Maybe you finished your prep in time to actually eat "family" dinner before service. Most likely you didn't. It's probably fried.
The first time you stop moving is the calm right as you open. Standing in front of the grill in this hot, HOT kitchen, waiting for a noise that would wake you out of a dead sleep, because the ticket printer has a very particular sound.
Then the madness really starts. You have to coordinate your stations dishes from five different 4 top tables that were just fired with every other stations chef and ensure that it comes up at the same time despite everything having a wildly different cook time from everything else. Which means getting barked at and responding to the only God present in this forsaken place, your expo. You work at a furious pace. There's going to be anywhere from 200-400 covers tonight, like there is every night, and there are only six of you. You slam water because everything you've tasted is salty or rich, and it is just so effing HOT. Anywhere from 90-110 degrees behind the line, always, and you're constantly moving like some kind of graceful tornado. Service winds down, and you realize you haven't gone to the bathroom in hours. You still have 10 minutes before you can go, though. Those last two tables just got fired, and you've got 3 steaks and a duck before you can even think of walking out of the kitchen. Then comes station breakdown and writing tomorrow's prep list. Lucky for you, the pastry chef couldn't serve all of the honey rolls tonight, and there's one up for grabs.
Even after all that, you better hope that you didn't break the aioli, or burn the parsnips, or make a mess of the soufflé. Because your sous chef will ride you. HARD. Produce, produce, produce. Faster, but with perfection.
"Step it up, or you won't have a job anymore!"
"Get it together!"
"In any other kitchen, you'd be thrown out for such a stupid mistake!"
All of it thrown at you with more expletives than you care to tally. Your only response had better be "yes, chef". You go home famished and exhausted. You shower, maybe eat whatever is quickest and easiest, and probably pass out with still wet hair. You wake up really hungry, but only having time for coffee.
You do this for probably around $14.00 an hour. No health insurance, and certainly no sick days. It can still be incredibly rewarding. But it's also a lot of long hours for not particularly good pay at the cost of your body and your social life. Standing on concrete for that long will wear down your knees and back, the dark circles are a recurring feature, and your waking hours are mostly consumed by the industry.
A guy that works that job, in New York City of all places, should have some kind of grip on how hard and all consuming work can be. If he had the chance to work a Michelin starred restaurant for one year, a job that would guarantee almost any chef job he wanted in the future, he would absolutely take it, no matter what. Even knowing that if he screws that job, he has a very real chance of being blackballed in the industry (which wasn't a point you guys brought up, but is also very present in the film).
Make Nate an accountant, an IT tech, ANYTHING but a chef. Because having him belong to one of the toughest industries for work-life balance while simultaneously having him complain about his girlfriend spending too much time at work is giving "good for me, but not for thee".
It's not uncommon for women to be expected to be the ones who move for their partners career opportunities. To sideline their own careers to help further their partners. To dial back on their careers to help support their partner or the family. To an audience, particularly to the target audience of this film, it can seem as though Nate's work, being important to him, is treated with respect. While Andy's work being important to her is met with ridicule and passive aggressive behavior. Well, until the perks of Andy's job make an appearance anyway. Because it did not escape my notice that the "same Andy, better clothes" scene got cut off right before Nate decided "you still working there is actually okay with me, for now, as long as you're wearing THOSE better clothes".
Andy makes some poor choices and excuses, but Nate?! He eventually starts to meet not just the job she works, but Andy as a person, with straight up condescension. He literally thinks less of and looks down on her for doing something in her industry that he would've jumped at, without question, in his own. That's what makes him a terrible, toxic boyfriend. The implicit hypocrisy coupled with the emotional constipation and all the communication skills a of 4 year old throwing a tantrum in the cereal aisle.
In the book Nate is a teacher which would make more sense with his attitude, as there's clear of times and it's less career driven. (not saying it isn't a stressful job, it sure is).
@@silentsaturn7604 He'd have no grounds to complain as a teacher, either. Teachers have to take work home with them all the time. They have to prepare every lesson they teach. In corporate terms, teachers do the job of project manager, presenter, consultation, and HR on a daily basis. It is physically and mentally taxing, although they do get nights and weekends off...unless you have an extracurricular event, or a bunch of papers to grade.
Fantastic comment, you nailed it. Especially the last couple of paragraphs.
Beautifully put.
IT techs have on-call and are occasionally expected to put out fires at 4AM before rushing to fix the Doctor/Lawyer/CEO's printer when the office opens 3 hours later, followed by making sure the company conference room doesn't bug out for their symposium at 6 that evening
I think that, in this case, there's a difference between Being Toxic and Exhibiting Toxic Behaviour.
Agreed
I think something our vloggers are forgetting is that if she botched the job with Miranda her career could be ruined and she could be blacklisted.
No. She couldn’t leave. Without giving up her careeer for a birthday party. I understand that sounds like excuses, but no I respectfully disagree that she’s making excuses. Yes long term that might not work out, but for that year she’s working for a sociopath and sociopaths don’t care about parties
It's definitely something that needs to be factored. We always have a choice even when we don't feel like it, but choices come with consequences and sometimes they're bigger that what's directly in front of you. The movie itself tells us that Andy's predecessor now works for TV Guide just because she missed a phone call. If Andy REALLY made Miranda angry she could straight up have to leave New York if she ever wants to work in the news again.
@@ariwl1 Ok, but then Andy walked out on Miranda during Fashion Week with no explanation. When we later see Andy looking for another job and she gets Miranda's "recommendation", it's not a direct consequence of her choices (which could have amounted to a far worse result), but yet again the whims of a sociopath. So yes, she could always leave, because no matter how she did it, the consequences would always be arbitrarily chosen by Miranda and there was no way she could bargain with that.
@@Akuuma28 On this point, I think this is where I like the book's direction a little more, since it shows that Andy ruined her reputation with Miranda and everyone who worked at Runway, and it shows her starting over and surrounding herself with people who share her values. I think that Miranda's recommendation kind of undercuts the movie because it means that Andy gets the best of both worlds: she quit her job and keeps her friends/boyfriend and also remains in good graces with Miranda.
@@Akuuma28I don't think Miranda's recommendation is only a random whim. It comes when Andy's proven herself, they've become a little bit closer, and Miranda has started to have some respect for her (all by Miranda's standards of course). If Andy had walked out before proving herself to Miranda then she never would've gotten a good recommendation. She didn't have a choice for the birthday party, but she did at the end of the movie.
She still left the job and she was not blacklisted therefore she could leave, she actually did.
My biggest problem with Andy and Nate's relationship is that Andy returns to him after all that. Yes, she decided to not follow Miranda's path, but she clearly changed after this year in Runway. I'd say she found some middle ground for herself, but Nate doesn't seem to be able to accept that people change (or give their attention to other things in life). So Andy basically goes back to the person who presses her to think that "old Andy was good".
Well it seems to be on the filmmakers that they overlooked that. It would have added more good to the movie by giving Nate a moment of realisation of his wrongs and to also for both of them to make a choice if they want to continue with some things changed or not instead of skipping it.
@@zopiranha3871 In the book they don't get back together at all, as far as I remember. They just stop seeing each other, meet during a certain accident and Andy describes Nate as being pretty shitty about this entire situation. Of course, the book describes the story differently, but in my opinion this ending makes more sense.
She gains a new interest and he straight tells her they have 'nothing in common anymore" because of it. I'm not sure they had anything in common to begin with.
I think a part of this is a lack of respect for the industry Andy is in. Neither Nate nor her friends try to meet her half way or learn about her job, they just shame her. And sorry, I would never risk someone I cared about being fired or chewed out by their boss in the name of a joke. Andy could've and should've gone way harder at them for that.
Toxic or not, on 500 Days Of Summer. This would be very interesting
Stay tuned! We already filmed it, just working on the edit!
@@CinemaTherapyShowCoolness, I hope that you'll do a "Toxic or Not" or "Couples Therapy" edition for Summer and Tom.
Or both!!
@@CinemaTherapyShow So excited!!
@@CinemaTherapyShowoh HELL YES
I just watched it this week and man do I hope you have the same opinions on the main character lol
Doug never abandoned her even when the others did. He was always supportive about her goals and life choices. Sure he teased for a second or two with the phone, but it never felt low key malicious like it did with the other two. Doug doesn’t get enough credit in this film.
He was the only one with any sanity lol
Well, the problem with this movie isn't that the friends and boyfriends are "toxic" or terrible people, they are ok people that take no accountability and it happens, the real problem is that the movie portrays Andy as the bad friend and the bad girlfriend as if everything was a 100% her fault, not taking into consideration the shitty things her friends do to her
Yes this!
YES! I don't think any of them are terrible people, but the way Andy is portrayed as solely responsible is bogus. She's the only one who's held accountable, and no one else takes responsibility for their part.
The movie is trying to show us how Andy feels about the situation she is in. we're supposed feel exactly how it makes us feel
@@Nikki..... Ok, yeah, but it also has the unfortunate side effect of delivering a message, as media tends to do, and normalize making women feel guilty and take accountability for everybody's action, not just theirs and that's why, as media, it gets criticized. It's still an amazingly written and performed film, but that's why people don't like some characters; is valid
But she did shitty things before and Miranda called her out on it when she got the job too so she just a shitty person in general lol
20:17 this scene has always rubbed me the wrong way, even when I first watched the movie as a 15 or 16yo girl. A friend of 16 years telling you ”the Andy I know is madly in love with Nate”?? Really?? Being in love with someone isn’t an identity.
No sorry, I would never grab someones phone while their boss was calling them. it's not an ooopsie, it's pure sabotage. It wouldn't even cross my mind to make fun of something like that. They were truly behaving like a****les. Just because they were not aware of their own behavior, doesn't mean she should baby them. Sorry, but she needs new friends.
She's making a sacrifice for a year that her friends pushed her to take because of the doors it would open for her, and then when it affected her ability to be there for them, for that year, they dumped on her. They are not being supportive.
Exactly
They were a bit toxic but it's ok for them to miss her and feel abandoned by their friend. They have needs too.
@@ashtynrose1906but it’s still shit for them to then try and get her to lose that job or make her quit. Their feelings are perfectly fine and all, it’s just how they acted on it.
I mean, telling your friend to take a job that will be good for them and changing your mind once that friend shows how much they hate it isn't really being unsupportive. Quite the opposite honestly. What they didn't take into account is Andy actually wanting to stay despite her constant complains. And it's honestly on all of them, both Andy and friends for their lack of communicating and having a honest conversation. I have a friend who constantly complains about her inflexible hours in work and that they're dumping work onto her because she's young and low on the food chain there, yet when I try to help and look for other jobs around with my connections she turns them down and doesn't even look up informations about them, despite me listing it for her. In that case I can see why they would tell her to quit when they only ever hear how negatively it impacts Andy. They're not the best of friends, sure, but telling her to quit because they saw that Andy hated it is not one of the problems they have.
@@ashtynrose1906ok, then actually communicate that. Don't sabotage her career by playing hot potato with her phone. Actually bring up the real issues, not "you dress differently".
I laughed so hard when the intro went "Alan's also there"
Yes me too the intro is really funny
keep the theme exactly the same for all "toxic or not" vids in the futuressssssss
Me too XD also, was that a reference to the Toxic Hype Train or whatever that ukulele thing was?? Please keep this for every episode!!!! Also, a very important topic
I was smirking at the intro, but the "Alan's here, too" got an audible laugh XD
I love the intro song!
From the first time I watched this movie I picked up a lot of resentment vibes from Lily. She obviously cares at least a bit about fashion - she knows right away who designed the bag Andy gives her, that its new, and that its sold out everywhere. Then there's the line when she confronts Andy and says that the Andy she knows thinks that Club Monaco is couture. It kind of comes off like she was the cool, fashionable, artsy one in their friend group, and in a few months Andy has upstaged her by leaps and bounds, so she feels a subconscious need to tear Andy down, imply that her job isn't important, and resent the ways in which she has changed and grown.
Agreed. Lily came across as entitled and self-centered, and yes, a little resentful over the changes (and success) that Andie is becoming because of her job. When she grabbed the expensive bag from Andie without even a "thank you", she acted like a spoiled, self-involved brat who has a hard time or can't deal when her friends are exceling at their dreams and chosen fields. Lily was my LEAST favorite character - gosh, at least Emily was entertaining in her own snooty way lol
Plus, Emily says "thank you" when Andy saves her at the Gala. Emily, for me, isn't really a jealous, vindictive person. She never tries to sabotage Andy, all her digs are aimed at Andy being a bad fit for the job (which matters to her because Andy's work is reflective of Emily), and she even coaches Andy on the Book and other aspects of the job. Emily is simply a hard worker with misplaced loyalty to a horrible boss. Given her and Andy's work ethic, I think they would've been quite good colleagues under different circumstances.
I never liked how Lily snapped at her for smiling when the blonde guy kissed her on the cheek. Not saying I'm cool with emotional cheating. However, if I was Andy's best friend of 16 years, who saw that happen, I'd calmly approach her, and say something like "Hey, Nate and you seem to be having a lot of conflict lately, that seems difficult, I'm here to listen, if you ever need to talk." Nate and her relationship was clearly falling a part by that point, as a friend I wouldn't essentially be like "you skank, stay with Nate" because that's not objective and might not be what Andy wants/ what is best for her.
Great take on it! I thought it was such a messed up point to make by Lily to say she liked Andy's ignorance of fashion and mad at her that she got smarter from her job. . . this makes perfect sense
So true!
12:10 Nate’s unwillingness to atleast empathize with Andy’s new interest in her career and fashion is my biggest gripe with his character. People change and grow with time, so loving someone comes with loving the person they become (within reason ofc). he’s not a villain but definitely wasn’t the best support system for Andy during this time
Great video guys!
I still don't get why dressing nicely is considered something bad. If anything, it's a good skill to have.
Nate never apologizes. It’s his way or the highway.
The phone keep-away scene always angered me because I felt like the movie was trying to use it as an example of “SEE Andy IS starting to change for the worse.” For me the scene reminds me of so many times in my life when someone did something that they knew would make me angry and then when I naturally got angry they acted like “Woah what’s your problem. YOURE the one being unreasonable right now.”
I disagree that her calling them assholes was just her taking out her frustration with her job on them. If she had just been able to pick up her phone and answer it no problem, yeah, she might’ve been a little stressed with the job, but I see no reason she would’ve called them assholes then.
Yes!!! Exactly this! This also reminds me of stuff like that!
agree- intentionally trying to bother and rile someone up and then get angry when they actually do
yea exactly!
This!
I have to say, I do think its really telling that Nate is the one that initiates the game of hot potato with the phone. The fact the he is sulking while Andy is sharing the benefits of her job, talking about how she's learned Runway is more than just fashion and has editorials from journalists she admires, and then he takes the FIRST opportunity he has to act out, putting Andy's livelihood at stake, is kind of a dick move.
I also wish you guys had included the reconciliation scene from the end of the film where they get back together. For me, that scene is the biggest red flag from Nate. Andy asks to meet up and genuinely apologizes while taking accountability for her actions. He arrives stand off-ish, and responds to her apology with snarky comments. I honestly dont know why she took him back. I get that they were both in the wrong for how they handled the relationship but like, girl, dont take back someone who treats you with sarcasm when you are ACTIVELY trying to apologize.
And also doesn't take any ownership of his part and also apologize.
Note that Nate dosn't get any expensive gifts only her friends.
@@sawanna508 Yeah he does. She gives him the super expensive phone.
Nate was going to Boston for his new job as sous-chef, so how would that even work out if Nate needs a present partner with Andy getting her dream job at New York?
*That's almost a 4hr drive.*
Sorry, but nothing in their last conversation implied to me they were getting back together, but just agreeing they're going to stay in touch.
@@MaxusFox23I feel like the overall message still applies. She takes accountability and apologizes, he doesn’t and responds with snark. Whether they got back together or were trying to stay friends, that’s a crap response.
I disagree that calling her friends assholes was harsh in the phone moment. Calling someone out with upset language is sometimes necessary to show that you've been hurt, and she doesn't say that her friends are inherently assholes but that in that moment they behaved like assholes, and that means that she still cares for them but they hurt her. So while I agree that the phone moment on its own does not make her friends toxic it is a moment of toxicity that needed to be called out so it would not continue and Andy is in no way wrong for using "harsh" language to do so. At least in my opinion
@@rebbyberard8150 definitely agree, putting someone's livelihood in danger is definitely not the equivalent of calling your friend a name because you're mad at them Especially when they do put your livelihood in danger with phone hot potato.
Andy: "I didn't have a choice."
Nate / everyone: "You always have a choice."
.....
So for many jobs (including Andy's), you make a choice to either accept the job or not. Once you accept the job, you do what you are told and what is expected of you. It is often not the case that you "always have a choice" in any meaningful sense unless you want your "choice" to be that you were fired or you're leaving the job.
We even see this at the end of the movie, when Andy decides not to answer Miranda's call and she knows that choice means that she doesn't work for Miranda anymore. And that's fine - that's her choice to make, but the alternative reality Nate / Andy's friends inhabit where you can pick and choose what parts of your job are convenient for you and still keep your job ... that reality doesn't exist and it's maddening that they keep insisting that it does.
I think this comes from a more almost bohemian outlook on work.
Honestly, I don't think Andy or Nate are wrong or bad. I think that throughout the film, they just realized how incompatible they had become.
I am of the belief that "you always have a choice"
I have been homeless and raised in poverty until I graduated college and got a well paying job. I COMPLETELY understand the repercussions of losing a job and not having money for housing, food etc. I understand doing whatever it takes to make ends meet.
And STILL I think we always have a choice.
When you have this kind of upbringing, I generally see 2 perspectives come out of it: People who become workaholics out of loss trauma and who hoard resources and money in fear of losing them again. And then those who have an acceptance of the fact that anything can happen at anytime, so they prefer to live their life free of the fear of loss.
I think Andy was more career driven and ambitious than she thought she was. Nate also thought, because Andy did too, that she was less career driven, and so he was confused and hurt by her new more career oriented outlook. It's like grief for the Andy he used to know or thought he knew.
I don't think Nate was being unreasonable. Yes, the phone scene is objectively mean. I cannot refute that, but Nate's feelings overall are valid in my opinion because at least I believe work is NOT everything and he was losing what really mattered to him above money and status... Andy
@@wendyberrios5957 I think these are great insights - thank you for sharing.
However, I want to clarify that my point was about the nature of the job itself, not anything to do with loss trauma, hoarding resources, or being a workaholic.
Oftentimes industry norms drive whether you "have a choice" or not, or even how much of a choice you have, which is why you have so many people pointing out that no, Andy didn't realistically have a choice .... but also Nate should understand that as he also works in an industry where you work what you're told to work and you're not leaving until you're done. If anything, Nate's industry has much less flexibility than Andy's so he of all people should have been understanding and supportive.
If the norms of a particular job / industry doesn't work for you, then the job itself doesn't work for you - and that's okay, but while you're working that job you need to do what's expected of you until you exercise your choice to leave. We have people in my field who like to decide that they "have a choice" right when it's crunch time ... and they often don't last very long and they don't get good references either because they took a job knowing what was expected of them and then deciding that they "have a choice."
THAT is what I'm talking about - the nature of the job itself.
@@michellewinkleman3999 Thank you for clarifying your perspective. My reply already had this nuance taken into account, but perhaps it was not communicated in the clearest way. The mention about the perspective of loss was to contextualize why someone would have such a belief, but I did not note that very clearly, sorry...
Logically speaking, you are correct. Certain jobs have essentially black and white ultimatums that means keeping the job or being fired.
You're right, Nate's industry has less "choice" and Nate STILL believes that we always have a choice. As do I.
I recently was in a job that had me chose between keeping my job and doing right by the people I served as part of my job. Following the rules to keep my job would mean populations of people in need would go unserved and unsupported in favor of collecting data that did not serve to directly help those populations (I was in a mentorship/support role). What the people wanted and needed and asked for was to be helped and supported directly.
You could say I "had no choice" and I just had to sit back and crunch numbers when there was a person who needed help even if it was hard to keep my job and make ends meet.
But I did have a choice. I always have a choice.
I could choose to serve the people in need, or protect my "job" and keep my money. I chose to help, even if it cost me my job. And it eventually did. I quit before they could fire me even though I did not have another job guaranteed. I had a job on the horizon, but it was not certain. I lived alone and paid rent on my own, but that did not matter to me...
It comes down to values. Nate doesn't value work. It is just a way to make ends meet. The conflict with Andy is that she has found herself caught in a values see-saw, teeter tottering between the value system she thought she had, and this new value system. She started as someone with Nate's value system: they thought the fashion industry was superficial and vain etc, but later Andy's values start to change and THAT is the source of the story's tension.
Like I said, I don't think anyone is wrong here! Both of their feelings and values are valid! It is a story of the quiet grief of value systems shifting between two people who now want different things from life and see life in different perspectives, but want to retain a status quo that no longer exists.
My hot take opinion is that the whole industrial complex has permeated so deeply into society that people forget that they are people with autonomy, values, and agency BEFORE they are employees of anything...
You can't control the way life goes, but you have one powerful reality: You always have a choice...
I think the disconnect here is the definition of toxicity, I don’t necessarily believe a person has to intentionally act with malice for it to be toxic. I believe someone can absolutely do awful things and be unaware of it but that doesn’t excuse them of the fact what they did was toxic
The thing that bothers me so much about Andy's friend group is the hypocrisy. Especially with Nate. Andy happily supported Nate when he had a chef job that has notoriously long working hours. She respects his field. But as soon as Andy gets a job with long hours, suddenly Nate gets butthurt about it. He also refuses to respect the fashion field, and thinks its frivolous and girly.
Not to mention, all Andy's friends will happily accept expensive gifts from her, but when Andy has to do her job, they take issue with it. Some of the things Andy does about her job are definitely her own choice. But her friends too quickly forget that she is working for someone who demands PERFECT OBEDIENCE from her workers, or they LOSE THEIR JOB. That feels like dubious consent to me, in terms of the choices Andy makes about her job.
I HAVE NEVER CLICKED ON A VIDEO FASTER
same
We hope you enjoy it!
SAME
GURL SAME 🍿
SAME!!
the intro song for this new series... glorious
It was so fun to put together!
"Alan's there, too" was the best part
Agreed, it made me laugh so much, nice little indie band sound! 😂❤️
@@CinemaTherapyShowWho sang it?? :o
Perfection ❤
Waaiiittt wait - so it’s fine for the friends to accept all the perks of Andy’s job in terms of expensive free stuff, whilst still continuing to mock and sneer at her job!?
You act like receiving gifts means they have to kiss her butt.
But mocking her job is what they thought is supporting her. In that case they were being thankful to her by doing what they knew she liked, hating her job and boss.
Andy herself mocks her job. But then she bends over for Miranda nonetheless.
Pretty messed up for a group of friends who just received gifts because of her work, to potentially make her loose that same job now that they got their gifts... who cares, not them!
It gives the good old 'you can be successful but never more than us'
If it's not toxic, it's poisonous
The friends became unredeemable to me when 1) she dropped ~$5-6K in swag on the table and there wasn't a SINGLE thank-you from anyone (just more snarky crap from Nate), then 2) they played keep-away with her phone like they were in second grade. And no, it wasn't a joke taken too far. It was a joke that never should have been made because you don't mess with someone's job. None of the friends can seem to accept that they aren't the first priority all the time. Besides, Nate burned that cheese sandwich.
Edited to add: If Nate is a chef, how does he have the time and energy for a relationship either?? Kitchen staff in general and chefs in particular have crazy long, hard hours. If anything, she should be used to him not being present.
@@LillyMarchant yeah him being available on any night or weekend is unrealistic
Finally!!! I was looking for a comment on that burned cheese sandwich, how did he, a Chef, burn that sandwich so much? It was almost black.
I do see the point where Andy was wrong, but the friends and especially Nate never apologize or take accountability for their wrong actions as well.
😂 he totally did
That phone scene killed me. My uncle and father both have jobs that basically require them to have their phones on at all times in case of emergency. My aunt jokes with my uncle that she's gonna chuck his phone out a moving car. My stepmom teases my dad that his "boyfriend" is calling whenever he gets a work call.
You know what they never do? PLAY KEEP AWAY WITH THE PHONES. Because that is their LIVELIHOOD. Full stop! If my dad's phone goes off and he's not near it, it's brought to him. Same with my uncle's phone. Sure, Andi has a horrible boss who demands probably way more than Andi is getting paid for. But it's still her livelihood. If she messes up, that can screw her over in this industry. If she does well, the recommendation can take launch her career.
I would have sympathy for the friends if they joked about taking her phone away, but didn't do so, and Andi got pissed off for that. I could excuse that as a joke being taken too far and Andi being too stressed to handle it properly. But literally taking her phone and nearly causing her to miss a potentially important call? No, she was correct amounts of pissed off.
I think the thing about this film is that it came out in 2006, 18 years ago. A whole generation has come of age since then. And, speaking as a young person, here's the additional context that we sit down with when we watch a film like this: cost of living expenses are at an all-time high, the job search is less accessible than ever, and every new technology (such as generative AI) seems to make even more people redundant.
Andi's friends present Andi's choices as "Keep working for a terrible boss who abuses her" or "Quit and just go get a new job" as if that's so simple. But this has become woefully out of touch with the 2024 audience, which is more likely to interpret her options as "Keep working for a terrible boss who abuses her" or "Give up on this major career opportunity, become unemployed for who-knows-how-long, move back in with your parents if you can, and accept that you will never amount to anything under capitalism".
Not to imply that Alan & Jono are out-of-touch with the youth, but this film just reads differently now because Miranda feels less like an unusually cruel and abusive boss, and more like _just another_ cruel and abusive boss. Most young people these days work multiple jobs they hate just to make rent, with no promise of future opportunity. And most of them would say that they'd trade places with Andi in a heartbeat if it meant they could afford to live in New York City, eventually learn to like their job (which actually has some really great networking benefits), and after a year slaving away for Miranda, walk away with the best professional reference in the industry.
When we see how Andi's friends treat her over her work, we're far more inclined to agree with Andi's rhetoric of "I don't have a choice, this is my job" because that's the socio-economic situation that most under-25s experience day-to-day. And because we're all sort of in the same boat, we're a lot more used to our real friends just accepting that our jobs suck and making the most of whatever time we can see each other. The film is designed to show how a demanding job can put pressure on relationships, and it does that really well without making anyone the villain (besides Miranda). But to a generation that already experiences this problem and so many others, Andi's mediocre, can't-read-the-room friends seem obnoxious and inconsiderate, and Andi's mediocre, can't-communicate-healthily boyfriend seems abusive and toxic.
In conclusion, The Devil Wears Prada shows us a terrible job by 2006 standards and a pretty mediocre friend group by anyone's standards. But by 2024 standards, Andi's job is actually looking pretty good (even if it isn't), and her friends are looking really bad (even if they aren't).
Great take. Agree. Also there is the gendered factor of being a successful woman in business comes with a lot of shit. I get where they are coming from but I think the context you addressed is important
Nice analysis of how the audience is part of the context. Every thing I know about film theory I learned from Lindsay Ellis!
-Auteur Theory/Death of the Author
-Genre
-Feminism/Male gaze vs Female gaze
-Queer Theory
-Marxist Theory
Now we need to add Generation Theory! Beyond how an individual’s perspective changes their interpretation of media (Death of the Author) to how a group’s shared experience compares to a different age group in the same society.* How does the intended audience react to a film in the moment, how do they respond decades later, and how does the new intended audience react to older content. Analysis of reboots and how changes in values are reflected in script changes is a whole subgenre!
(I know I’m getting excited, but I am reminded of a tv show about a talent agent that got the position suddenly so doesn’t have the years of conditioning in the industry. A writer is trying to sell a script and is told to make it more exciting, maybe add a chase scene. Only the ingenue loves it as is and tries to push it forward. The script is “Mr Smith Goes To Washington” and the experiment was to see if the industry was willing to make GOOD content or just whatever was calculated to MAKE A PROFIT. The episode was the entertainment industry calling itself out, and this was back in the 90s!)
*I already read a comment from a Spaniard expressing their viewpoint of American work culture putting too much emphasis on your job being more important than yourself and your personal relationships. Different cultures are another lens to explore.
Great take tbh. This movie came out when I was 12 and shortly after was “the Great Recession.” Jobs were hard to come by and in this universe of 2006 it was already established that Andy struggled to get a job, flash forward just two years later and the concept of hanging onto your job was such a bigger threat and the idea of throwing away a potential career when things were so uncertain is crazy.
Excellent point. And as someone who was in their age group when this came out in 2006, it was true then too, just not to the extreme level it is now. Especially in fields they were all in.
Agreed. By no means is Andy perfect, but the film doesn't actually present many options for her to get where she wants to go. And it does bug me how her friends (and dad!) harp on her for being Miranda's assistant and not doing what she really wants to do which is journalism. But Andy was out of college what, a year at most? Unless you're a top of the world talent and/or dad's got connections your first job likely isn't going to be anywhere close to your dream. If you take out the part that Miranda is an objective nightmare to work for, on paper Andy's first gig is pretty impressive.
“The Andy I’ve known for 16 years is crazy about Nate”… Dude… how come you’ve known her for 16 years, been her friend, and you don’t know when she really likes something, like the job she has now. How come she doesn’t get the little cues of Andy that, yes she’s changing, but she’s in a highly stressful job that demands more attention than they’re used to? That’s a lot of finger pointing for someone that’s known you “for 16 years”
Right! Like a person is not allowed to change in 16 years. What if Andy wanted to break up with Nate would her friend choose sides with Nate?? They made no sense.
I agree. I also don't get why Lily was so upset. Andi and Christian were just talking. He kissed her on the cheek. That's it. You'd think Andi pulled Christian in for a kiss the way Lily reacted.
@@andromeda331well it wasnt him kissing her, it was Andi's reaction to him kissing her. in her friend's face I could see that she immediately thought "the old andi would tell him to f*** off why's she twirling her hair and sh**" so her anger makes sense
Yeah if they've been friends that long surely she has had other relationships etc. The appropriate response to this is to be concerned that your friend might be unhappy in their relationship and ask how they are not make it sound like a crime to be losing interest in a boy!
I know Andy would sleep with him later, but she hadn't done anything yet at this point and all he did was kiss her cheek. She really overreacted.
Boyfriend is toxic. If he’s a chef on the rise, then he knows (or should) what “paying your dues” looks like: you start at the bottom on prep, you put in your time, travel and stage for free in exchange for training in interesting kitchens, rise through line or specialty cook to sous, head, then executive chef if you’re good enough…Mentorship and reputation are everything in fine dining. He should 100% understand what Andie’s doing and why. (Okay, maybe not the kissing the Mentalist part, but in general.) He’s a big, self-centered baby.
100%, he's a fn manbaby and it was good riddance when they broke up
Why the hell does everyone think Andi did something horrible to Emily? Emily treated her like subhuman crap the entire movie, Andi proves herself a more reliable employee and is selected to go to Paris instead, and then people act like it was a shitty thing to do to this woman who has showed her no empathy or kindness? Seems like people want Andi to be a doormat.
I think it boils down to:
1. Miranda had picked Andy to go over Emily, but hadn't told Emily yet.
2. Emily senses something is wrong, so she's rushing around trying to stay in Miranda's good graces and then ends up in the accident as a result of her rushing around.
3. Instead of just accepting that she can't go due to being injured, Andy shows up and tells her that Miranda had picked her anyway. Andy could have just not mentioned that Miranda made that decision, and just been sympathetic over her injuries and the fact she can't go. But she makes her feel worse instead. (I'm sure Miranda would have eventually mentioned to Emily that she'd picked Andy, but let Miranda be the awful toxic one her, not Andy. The fact Andy has to say it just shows that there is some spark in there that maybe Andy could become like Miranda someday if she's not careful.)
And sure, Emily treats Andy like crap a lot of the time. But in the books, they show that's just kind of how Emily is, and the people who know her know that. And she's got a lot of very good friends (including Andy) despite how she talks. Emily is more of a "show people you care for them" kind of person, so her actions speak louder than her words. And people like Miranda have neither words nor actions to care about anyone.
@@crazybiogeek No it doesn't. 1. It's not Miranda's job to tell Emily that she picked Andy over her, she instructs who tells what to who. Miranda is the boss and has all the right to pick the MOST qualified person to go with her on the most important business trip of the year. . . and I don't blame her. Emily treated that business trip like a vacation. 2. Emily did not sense anything wrong, she was doing her JOB by running around to do the errands INSTRUCTED to her by her boss. Emily was just rusty in that JOB since she got used to Andy doing all that work. Remember Andy doing all that work? The whole job is a big difficult rush. 3. Andy needs to lie in a work situation that is over her head to spare someone's feelings? Have you never worked in an office or HR? Hon, you NEVER lie about the decisions made by those who are way above your supervisor.
Agreed. I don't see any problem in that situation. A coworker is sick and unable to go so the boss chooses someone else to go instead. So what? Why would you say no to this, seriously? And why would saying yes make you a bad person?
In my profession, we always have so-called covers - people who step in as your replacement if you get sick etc. And it's completely normal.
@@crazybiogeek the hell,so just because someone is naturally rude and horrible to everyone, we should all just give them a pass?
The problem I have with the “friends” in particular is a scene where they are tossing Andy’s phone around to keep away from her when her boss is calling. This scene bothered me so much. They know she’s in a high pressure job with a mean boss. They are knowingly hurting her. Playful teasing is one thing but messing with someone’s job and money is another. They also didnt apologize for “doing a oops”
100% agree with this. Even after she calls them a- holes that fact that was so out of character for Andi doesn't make them second guess themselves. No shame. Just "Pffft, what's her problem?"
i think in the grand scheme of the movie that one scene is negligible, not excusable, but just not all encompassing enough to overshadow the fact that Andy was changing and not being up front about it, esp to Nate. just my two scents.
They did not have much chance, though, for formal apology. Again - in that scene both sides were in wrong.
Did u finish the video? They called them out on that scene
I think the friends, in their minds, were messing around, expecting old Andy to not care that much and actually laugh along with them. Their mistake was to assume her reaction to be "no big deal guys", I don't think that's knowingly hurting her. Yes, it hurt her and they didn't apologize, that's something that should be addressed, but I still don't see it as toxic behaviour. Like Jonathan said, both the friends and Andy could have acted better in this situation. Both sides made mistakes. Them by ignoring her pleads and stressing her out, her by transfering her frustration (originally caused by Miranda) towards them. "Assholes" is a pretty strong word to use in that situation, she's allowed to be mad at them but I honestly understand why they felt offended by her words.
The thing I would question with this movie is how much Andy actually changed. She was just someone with a strong work ethic and that's who she always was. How can we say that she stabbed her colleague in the back by going to Paris when that colleague never had her back? Andy took the job to launch her career knowing a reference from Miranda would be powerful. She knew the job wasn't what she wanted to do long-term but needed to put her best foot forward to get that strong recommendation. Her friends were telling her to leave. If she left and didn't score that reference, that means she just wasted her time working there. If her friends were adults, they would understand why she was biting the bullet she was.
It was also a tough job market during a recession. Things are better now but, when this was made, if you were lucky enough to get a job in your twenties in your field, you couldn’t just quit on a whim and expect to find something else. And resume gaps could be the death of your career. Even if she weren’t career-oriented, it’s not like she had the luxury to just choose to be unemployed. She needed to be able to pay her bills. It would have been unreasonable to expect or demand a friend or partner quit their job in that time period. That would have been a huge ask you wouldn’t make of someone you care about. Maybe you would keep an eye or ear out for other opportunities for them or help them network to try to find something less stressful but you wouldn’t fault them for choosing to do what they need to do to remain employed.
Exactly , and I think why there's such a response to this is we've all been where Andy is at some point with our jobs. Hell missing social events is light wait till you have to toss up work versus caring responsibilities or family illness etc. Not all employers will give you paid time off. I had to work late and miss part of my birthday this year. My friends response was was to order me extra food and wine for when I arrived as she knew I was tired and stressed not tell me I was a terrible person!
I have never understood why is it her stabbing Emily by going to Paris when Emily wasn't going to be able to go *at all, in no way shape or form*. What was she supposed to do then? Was she supposed to say "I am not going to do the job of being an assistant because my friend doesn't get to go"?
- Her friends happily accept these INSANELY EXPENSIVE and exclusive gifts, that bag esp is a status symbol on par with giving your working class friend a Ferrari, cuz your boss didn't need it. The hot potato scene is just in very poor taste considering they are jeopardizing Andy's employment (if she misses the call she could be fired), despite gleefully reaping the benefits seconds earlier.
- Also it makes them come across as hypocritical to judge her for suddenly caring about fashion when they obviously do so too. The moment they happily accepted those gifts they lost the moral high ground in that argument. (I do think they were intentionally written to be unsympathetic, so that Andy feels progressively isolated by the end)
Nate might not be as awful as some ppl say, but the fact that he's a CHEF, a job that is both artistic and also very demanding and stressful, you'd expect him to be more sympathetic to Andy's workload and change. Also, if my bf was a chef, I don't think making someone grilled cheese is as impressive a gesture, it just feels like the bare minimum; I'll admit that it's probably because that's just what Andy used to like, so Nate misses his low-maintenance girlfriend.
They're not bad people, they're just kinda bad together I'd say.
I love that you pointed out the hypocrisy of them clearly enjoying fashion themselves while then turning around and treating Andy like she's sold her soul after she no longer makes fun of them.
I personally don't think her friends were hypocritical. After accepting the presents, things started to change for them all. Yes, they were expensive presents, but I think they would have been happy with anything she brought them. She was trying to repay them for their support, and she chose to give the really expensive stuff. After that scene things get worse and I personally think that is when the friends really start to see how things have changed. They are allowed to change their minds, especially if Andy is continuing to change herself. If she is allowed to change, so are they. Yes I suppose they could give the presents back, but if I am losing my best friend I don't think material items are what is most on my mind at that time.
Yes the phone thing definitely went too far, but that doesn't make them bad people.
And on the chef thing, I think if I was dating a chef I would very much expect them to not cook such elaborate things, when that is literally what they have been doing all day. Chefs are allowed to have a break from their work too. Some chefs might enjoy it so much that they still cook like that at home, but considering the working hours and difficulty for chefs Nate is likely exhausted. So yes, dating someone who doesn't what that level of meals is probably a relief for him. I do agree with you that with the kind of job he has Nate is better placed to understand the levels of stress and extra hours she is doing.
Like all things nothing is cut and dry, things are complicated, and everyone has good moments and bad moments in the film (although Miranda has maybe only one good moment lol).
for the grilled cheese- I got the impression she really loved them and that's why he made them for her
It'd be interesting to see how the relationship would work if the dynamics were reversed. The movie ends with Nate getting a coveted Sou Chef position in Boston. Andy would have to give up New York to move with him. Its possible the tables will turn in the future and Nate will be the busy one while Andy would have more free time. Just a thought.
This is my issue with the scene, is that they took the stuff and then added to her stress.
Even though I’m a therapist, my beef is with the movie and how it concludes with Andy was wrong and her friends were right all along , so now she has to go back and apologise. Like they saw what she couldn’t until it was too late for her and every meaningful relationship she had was gone… BECAUSE OF HER. Honestly, Emily grows more than anyone in this movie and maintains her integrity throughout
Andi looses her way because she doesn't actually have any support.
They all want Andi to stay the same, and when she starts to grow, they can't stand it. They don't want her to change and don't recognise what she's learning from this job - instead they mock her for it. Actually, the only one who appreciates what she's doing is the lawyer guy-friend who understands the opportunity but even he sides with Nate and the artist friend with the phone throwing scene.
Nate doesn't want her to grow and his protests are all jealousy... yet if he was working for a true Michelin star restaurant, he would be doing the same - working all the hours and trying to achieve greatness underneath a driven Head Chef who would demand perfect.
Andi discovered that she wanted more than cruising along in life and Runway pushed her to be better and to drive for more than the mediocre - that she has permission to want more, and to push for more, and Miranda is the lesson of how so not do it, so she can make better choices.
Nate wants to cruise in life. Andi discovers a drive to want more and Nate drops her because he doesn't want his girl showing him up. I actually watched this just last week and realised how immature Nate was written - though the relationship breakdown is posed as Andis fault is actually wasn't , it was actually Nate haveing a tantrum about not being #1. Imagine what would have happened if they'd had a baby!! Nates tantrum would have been worse because he was no longer the centre of Andis world.
Thanks for listening to my thesis on #GirlPower
The final interaction between Andy and Nate wasn't shown, but it's the one that really cements my dislike Nate. He and Andy bump into each other and she learns he's moved to another state for his job. He learns that she quit hers, for good this time. He then throws out that she should move and join him in Baltimore. After him not supporting her at her last job, I can't stand that he wants her to drop everything and follow him for his big, life-changing job, when he couldn't be there for her during hers. The double-standard upsets me so much.
It wasn't Baltimore, it was Boston.
Yeah, to me this has always seemed like the setup for the inverse story, where he is overworked and never around, and she eventually has to end things with him. I don't think either if them are "toxic", but I don't think they are good for each other.
He moves to a poor rural community as a part of Teach for America in the books, and Andy doesn't follow him because she wants to stay in (or near) NYC.
Nate became a Sous Chef in Boston. Andy interviewed at a major newspaper in NY, and seemingly got the job. Nate says "I'm sure we can work something out." My personal headcannon is that the distance was too great and they ultimately decided to go their separate ways lol. Seriously, they'd have 0 time for each other, and they both seem career oriented anyway. BYE NATE!
SO REAL
It was a stepping stone into a career that she’s trying to pursue. The other thing that people ignore is the fact that this is a story of the difference between men and women especially in the mid 2010’s and before. Men can pursue the career, have the family, and the white picket fence because they have a supportive partner in a heterosexual relationship. Women, straight or otherwise, are always forced to sacrifice something to get what they want.
@@jennifergebhart5873 This. Especially that Nate is a chef which has wildly unpredictable hours and chances that you're going to miss every kind of big events in your life, it is such a double standard. Given that everybody in the group has known Andy and Nate for 16 years, they should all remember the early years of Nate's culinary experience. The fact that only one of her friends is willing to give her Grace and not take with one hand And saying that they also enjoy fashion while wagging a finger with the other hand shows that even in this group dynamic of 16 years, the double standard is so present.
No, there were also movies about the workaholic dad who was neglecting his family & at the end of the movie he learns he needs to spend more time with them. So it was the same for both men and women.
I don’t think Andy’s friends were toxic but I will say after Nate breaks up with her and she quits working for Miranda I can’t imagine Andy hanging out with them anymore because her role in their friend group was so obviously Nate’s adoring girlfriend who is basically the girl version of him.
I'm glad to see everyone in the comments is in agreement about the hot potato phone scene. I think the Cinema Therapy guys did that scene a disservice, and I especially question the validity of the therapist for shrugging it off in the way he did. It should have ranked WAYYYY higher on the toxicity scale, and Andy absolutely had every right to call them a-holes.
“And then we can stop pretending like we have anything in common anymore.”
If Andy admits to actually liking the job, she fears Nate will break up with her because he can’t see himself being with a Runway girl. This kind of emotional hostage situation is unhealthy to both of them. Not Nate nor her friends are allowing Andy to be who she’s slowly becoming, they’re not giving her space to reflect on what’s actually going on with her, prolonging the process and making it more painful for everybody. Everybody in this movie is at fault and that’s why it feels so realistic and human and great.
Also, I do think Andy was hurt by Nate’s joke in the beginning of the movie about her wardrobe and I think it’s a crucial moment for her, because she realizes that even the love of her life doesn’t think she has any fashion sense whatsoever and I think that’s what drives her in the beginning of her year at Runway, which then turns into an obsession.
I disagree with the “she did have a choice, she could’ve left the party” just bc Miranda would’ve not only fired her, but also has the power to ruin her chances in journalism in general not just in fashion. It’s definitely valid for Andy to say that she couldn’t leave and didn’t have a choice when her dream and future is at stake
Ah but see Miranda says later…”Oh you chose…you CHOSE to get ahead”
There’s always a choice. Just because the consequences of those choices are awful, doesn’t mean there wasn’t a choice to begin with.
Yeah, I think it's about how she says it. "I didn't have a choice" is different from "my whole career depended on staying at that stupid party". And he should understand that, of course it's going to hurt but that doesn't mean you can't move on. Birthdays come every year but career opportunities like this are rare.
To take from Babylon 5 people only say they don't have a choice when they already made up their mind. You have a choice. You may not like the outcome but you have a choice.
I think Miranda created an environment that made Andy feel like she legitimately did not have a choice without life-altering consequences (the usual corporate BS). Like, "I'll fire you and ruin your future career prospects if you say no to me" kinda consequences. She put Andy in such a tight spot, and I feel for her when she says she doesn't have a choice because the agency she had was essentially taken away from her at the very beginning. Props to Andy for finally choosing to walk away tho. NGL but that's quite a career gamble. Imagine if Miranda didn't give a good testimonial
I agree that much of the stakes that are kind of glossed over the film was that for the most part her career was made to seem like on the line even when applying, it was stated that this was one of only two jobs offered to her. It could have been assumed that she applied to alot of jobs and this probably was the best option for her. But even if it wasnt, miranda is the type of boss that cab jeopadise a person's whole future if the assistant does anything wrong. On the other end, Andy does not communciate that well the lingering threat for working for such a person and is overshadowed by her competency and dedication to the job out of sheer survival i feel. Its not like she can just opt to ruin her future and not work in that field she is good at.
6:44
Hard disagree. 8 dollars worth of Jarlsberg and he BURNED THAT SANDWICH TO A CINDER! They expect me to believe this man is both a chef and a good boyfriend? You don't serve that kind of kitchen misstep to people you like. 😂
Same. I glare at that ruined grilled cheese and judge him every time I watch that scene.
Lol I'm reading through this sea of comments bringing up reasons not to like this man and then I find this one. You win, you understand what matters XD
Another part that wasnt talked about that really irked me about nate in the movie is the scene where andy didnt quit and is working on the science project. Andy says "same andy better clothes" and nate poutily says he liked the old clothes. Andy then playfully is asking about different pieces shes wearing asking if he likes them. He continues to barely acknowledge or show interest in what is clearly a newfound large interest of hers and claims he doesnt like any of it. Then she shows him the lingerie shes wearing, and suddenly hes interested and all over it. He picks her up and is suddenly enthusiastic when its something that directly benefits his own interests. It just comes of as really sleazy and shitty, that he didnt care at all about her interest until it was something that could sexually fulfill and benefit him.
I've always been bothered by that scene too, and for the same reason.
I think you guys are looking into it too much. The new clothes literally symbolizes her change. Like it's okay for her to like fashion now that she gets it and is involved in it, but there's a difference between "my work has opened my eyes and I want to also take pride in the work that I am accomplishing" and "look, I had to learn to be fashionable for work, but at the end of the day this is still a means to an end and I haven't changed at all". Also that lingerie thing wasn't him liking it so much as him liking sex
Common he noticed Andy'spaly full tone and noticed what she was up to therefore only pretended he dosn't like them so she would continue undressing.
I loved this movie through high school. Still do. At that time, my friends and I were 100% on deck with Andy's friend and boyfriend - like c'mon girl, prioritize those relationships!
But when I rewatched it as an adult, my opinions shifted. I was working in the film industry. My friends were working at Meta. Both are very difficult, demanding places. And at that point, all of us could not STAND Andy's friends or Nate LOL. Mostly because we had all had to deal with that juggle - and REALLY appreciated our friends who stuck with us through the change, including having less time together (sometimes).
I get what the film is saying through their eyes, and they do make some good points... but I still see them as super unsupportive LOL.
yes, we forget he is absent too.... hes a line cook in NYC... those are minimum 10-12 hour shifts every day. It's likely he was stressed too and missed his mama to come home to when he was smelling like a grill or something. Or that he only has mornings off, and she had to be up early to get to the office, and that their schedules just didnt line logistically. Not to be TMI, but this is literally what happened to me and my partner of 3 years. He was a line cook, I'm an artist... we moved to new york together, then the stress of having two busy/absent partners got in the way of love
I think something tiny that would've made a massive difference is apologizing to Andy and being more empathetic before criticizing her. "Hey, we got carried away with the phone, you were so considerate and brought us something and we acted like asses. We're really sorry." "Hey, it's none of my business but... is everything okay with Nate? Are you having issues? Maybe I misunderstood but it looked like that guy kissing your cheek barely missed your neck." (yeah the last one is coming off kinda passive-aggressive but I think the interpretation depends on the delivery and whether the actress says it like she's accusing Andy or him and being protective of her friend.)
Yeah, honestly I hate that she didn't ask about it. Just assumed Andy was cheating because some guy kissed her on the cheek and then chewed her out for it. Yuck.
@@TheGreatWerebear-ge7uh YES, THANK YOU!
@TheGreatWerebear-ge7uh the same guy she later had sex with... are you people being obtuse on purpose?
Omg thank you! No one asks her if she's ok! They just act like her changing to do better at her job is a betrayal or something.
Exactly! They just get angry with her instead of showing concern for their friend and asking if everything is OK.
I disagree with the points about Andy missing Nate's birthday party. She didn't just miss it because she had to work, she was doing it to support a coworker who was sick and clearly unable to do the work on her own. That's the thing that's always bugged me about that whole scene.
And also, what kind of man-child makes a fuss about birthdays? Pass the age of 18 to 20, people generally don't care about their birthdays anymore. Even if they do, they should have enough mental maturity to know not everyone will make time or be able to make time to be there. People will have jobs, children, other responsibilities far more important than a day they squeezed out their mums.
hmmm, I don't really agree that *Andy* was doing it to support Emily, Miranda demanded that they both come because Emily was sick. Before that Andy was looking forward to getting off early for Nate's party.
I think the most accurate way to describe it is that Andy's friends and Nate are right in how they feel but not because Andy is a bad person. Andy was just doing an act of service to someone who needed it the most.
@@fairy6818 The kind that was there selfesly supporting his GF and when the time that was special for him, where people celebrate you being a part of their lifes and show appreciation for you... expect to be shown some amount of appreciation back.
Ironically, the same can be said for her Boss... ever heard about dayquil and nightquil? You are a grown adult, take the meds and push on like the rest of the world.
Not to mention, right after she’s told to be at the work party. She calls her friends and explains things to them. So it’s not like she completely blew it off.
I feel like I'm the only one whose major beef with this movie is how Andy feels bad and lets everyone else make her feel bad about "taking away Paris" from Emily. She's surpassed the performance of the person who is technically above her in the workplace hierarchy, a person who was nothing but terrible to her from the moment she met her, and it could even be argued that she tried to sabotage her (the super vague instructions for where to leave The Book at Miranda's house, for instance). They definitely didn't have the same relationship as Miranda and Nigel, and Miranda screwing Nigel over to save her own ass isn't even in the same realm as Emily being bumped off of the Paris Team in favor of Andy. All Andy did was be damn good at her job, while Emily was too busy worrying about losing enough weight to fit all the free clothes she was going to get in Paris.
PREACH
THANK YOU
Agreed, and I think this is a failure on the writers' part. In order for this plot point to work, they needed to make it play out in a way where Andy was deliberately pushing Emily aside. Instead, it was clear that Emily was out either way. Was Andy supposed to sacrifice her career so Emily could go to Paris for a week and play dressup? Even after Emily was hit by a car and rendered unable to go? It's not like Emily was getting fired or anything; she still had her job and probably a chance at going the following year instead. It's totally fair for Andy to feel badly for Emily, but it's not fair to say she should feel at fault for what happened there. Whereas Miranda could have found a solution that didn't involve betraying a decades-long friendship/working relationship, wrecking Nigel's big break that he's been working toward and dreaming about for years. It's a false equivalence.
@@TheGreatWerebear-ge7uh I agree that it is a false equivalence, but I had thought that was intentional on the part of the writers. It's been a while since I last watched the movie, but the image I have in my memory is that Miranda suggests that what Andy "did to" Emily is similar to what Miranda did to Nigel. I was left with the impression that this was a manipulation tactic by Miranda, which Andy was vulnerable to because she already felt that she'd betrayed some of her values (and Emily/her other friends) to get there.
This is why Emily vs. Andy just never lands with me. Emily was sick, broke her leg, and the boss straight up said she doesn't want her there. Emily wasn't going to Paris no matter what Andy did.
I always thought her friends weren’t really friends and her boyfriend was only a good guy when it was convenient for him. I can’t imagine my friends/family or even my coworkers behaving in such a way.
Some other nuances to the cell phone hot potato scene.
On Nate: Before Andy walks in, Nate is sharing knowledge of cooking, i.e. his career with the table. And Andy for once has something cool to share about her stressful job, and suddenly, his career progress isn’t the “cool” focus anymore. That’s a particularly selfish part of him being too put out for the situation that got to me a lot.
On her friends: they are all for Andy’s new job when she brings them cool expensive stuff for free. But once Andy starts going into the logistics of the magazine, and beyond the “fancy purses,” they *immediately* tune out along with Nate. And still accept the expensive gifts after blatantly disrespecting the job that got them those gifts in the first place. F tier friends mooching off of her while not supporting her dreams.
I agree with Andy with the phone scene, they were assholes for trying to make her miss a work call
@@megabladechronicles962 Precisely, that always boiled my blood. They could have gotten Andy fired, and just after she treated them to expensive work gifts.
Agree, if this were a real life scenario that person could lose their job with a boss like Miranda. And the friends were at least somewhat aware of that. Her BF definitely was and didn't stop it.
Yes, they took it too far in that scene. But the breakup scene where Andi is told that 'the person whose call you always take is the one you're in a relationship with' was spot on. No matter who she was with, what time it was, she took Miranda's phone calls. She put Miranda above everyone else in her life.
@@lisam5744but that’s her job?
@ccdoubleo, kinda? I mean, it was, and Miranda was insane. However, I used to be all for the job, loved it (unlike Andy) and I'd do a lot unpaid stuff. Then I had a baby. Twice I left my classes (with approval and work to cover) because my hubby locked himself out with our son (this is an hour round trip), once because hubby was worried about something (it was nothing). I will answer my phone during class (to be fair no one calls me, so if it rings, it's urgent and important or spam) and just generally my son is my priority over everything and anything. Luckily I've never had a Miranda in my life, but I'd tell her to stick it (and get fired). I'm also at least 10 years older than Andy and with great age come very few fs to give imo.
The reason this relationship grinds my gears is that it's echoing a behavioural pattern men often exhibit that IS toxic, and that's trying to break a female partner down when you see them as achieving more social status than you. And you could argue that Andi DOES become conventionally more successful and attractive than him, and so it comes off as him trying to bring her back down to his level so they're equals again. That's kind of how the ending comes off to me, as though she needs to compromise in order to be his equal without which she won't 'earn' his respect, and to me that reeks of a manipulativeness that falls into the realm of toxicity because it is, in the most basic sense, meant to hinder her progress for HIS benefit.
I 100% agree that her friends are not toxic, for all the reasons you mentioned. They're entitled to articulate that they feel their values aren't aligned anymore.
Its been a while since I saw this movie in full, but I don't really remember anyone being entirely wrong or right. There were a bunch of people who made mistakes and lost sight of what's important, but there were a lot of attempts at accountability, making up, and trying to do the right thing now for a better future. The movie is great for showing that people are messy in a very believable way. People aren't perfect
Also, they're just out of college. They're all still young and learning. You make mistakes especially when you're young.
Some thoughts: Miranda's toxicity touches everyone in Andy's life (including every single one of her co-workers). It really bothers me when people give Miranda too much sympathy and they decide Nate is the true villain. ALL of the characters in this movie do things that hurt people but Miranda manages to hurt EVERYONE.
@@sadem1045 I believe one of the staff members said in an interview that Nate was the "true villain" of the movie and people just agreed with it blindly?
I even discussed it with my sister, who's also a psychologist, and she said "Yeah, NO. Andy DID have to step it up to reach her job's expectations, but saying Nate was the "true villain" is straight up BS". But it's like the internet cannot argue without amplifying situations to the extremes... instead of admiting ups and downs in everything IS NORMAL.
@@MaxusFox23 He's the "true villain" because *everyone* knows Miranda is toxic; it's not a secret, even to Miranda, who readily admits what she does and why. But people *defend* Nate in his sh!tty, playing-the-victim behavior and Andi is the one who's "always wrong" in their relationship. THAT'S the difference.
I agree, but also the only one who is shown to learn a lesson and find her way again is Andy, and nobody else.
„Friends always give each other crap haha lol totally normal“
is very often just a thinly veiled excuse to say mean things about your „friends“ and they can’t defend themselves cause „oh chill out, can’t you take a joke, we’re friends, that’s what friends do“
Like, I fail to see anything funny about this dynamic; I’ve seen it far too many times irl
The made fun of Person often feels like they have to go along with it and laugh it off cause they’re being manipulated by their „friends“ and media to think this is normal behavior when it really isn’t, it’s still inconsiderate 🤷🏻♀️
What doesn't sit right with Nate is the internalized mysogyny you can catch in his reactions. He judges girls that love fashion and makeup, the "girly-girl" kinda type. You can see him so proud of Andy when she is being diminishing about these things too. He wants her to be "not like the other girls" because he does not respect women that like this kind of stuff and they are not valid to him. And the moment Andy starts to enjoy this fashion world, she loses that "special girl" value to his eyes. That's the part that makes me ick about him
This! This always irked me how he doesn't like the "new her" with new clothes in make up and interest in fashion. He loved his "not like other girls" girlfriend, and once she no longer fit that idea of her that he had, he didn't like it. But she couldn't win either way, if she try to dress more fashionably, she would get stares and criticism from her workplace. If she did dress up, Nate make snarky comments on how she's changed. I could go on about this topic, but I do think that this film did a decent job on sort of showcasing certain issues that women face both in society and in the workplace.
The thing that gets me the most is that she essentially warned them that it would be a year from hell but that, once it was done, she could calm things down again. They all implied they were behind her in this, but then as soon as the hell part started, they all left her hanging and got upset with her instead of giving her support.
And I don't blame her for the flirting bit: someone complimenting you and making you feel good about yourself for once would be a nice break from what she goes home to which is a guy just dragging her through the mud for the already insanely stressful job she's dealing with. I'm not ok with cheating, but a little flirt never hurt anyone and can be a real confidence boost.
She isn't perfect, I get that, but the way her friends and boyfriend treated her was just not ok.
Exactly this!
Doesn’t she go to his apartment and make out with that guy in the movie?
Yes, this!!
She wasn't even late because of the flirting. She was leaving and Simon Baker's character tried to lure her back in with a career connection but she left for Nate. They had a 2 minute conversation on the steps but before then she was stuck to Miranda's side working
Agreed! At that point that guy seemed to show more support and validation than her friends so no wonder she felt some warmth towards him.
But it's only seen as "bad Andy was cheating, what a skunk". So her friend's judgemental behavior becomes justified.
I have worked for several Miranda’s. I also was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and because of that I struggled. I struggled doing my job and also struggled because I was being emotionally, mentally, and physically beat down by a Miranda. I used to come home sobbing and blame myself… because it had to be my fault. Something was wrong with me because I struggled.
When you called Andy a badass for succeeding in that type of work environment I need you to understand how much that validated and healed that part of me. Because I felt like such a failure but I didn’t. I quit those jobs because I couldn’t take anymore. I didn’t fail and I’m a badass. ❤
As a fellow ADHDer, diagnosed as an adult, who struggled in demanding work environments with a boss who wasn’t a good fit for me needs - I salute you 🫡
To me, what bothered me most about his (and all the friends') lack of understanding is that when Andy says "I don't have a choice", they don't consider her work environment, where disobeying or not performing at her best or not being on call at odd hours can mean she's fired in the blink of an eye. We start out the movie with her clearly struggling to find work, and this is a last ditch effort, and now that she does have this experience I'm sure it would be easier to find another job, but I feel like they don't take into account how stressful it is for Andy to try and KEEP this job, that pays well and has benefits/gifts for her friends. It's a toxic work environment, but it's one that has a lot of pros in addition to the cons.
Also, the comment about "you used to make fun of those girls" feels so mean spirited - of course she would gain a new perspective once she's in their shoes and working with them closely! I don't know why it's a surprise to her friend group that she starts sympathizing with her coworkers, who are in the trenches with her and experiencing the evil boss alongside her. Andy experiences the cutthroat competition of it, but also recognizes that she was being unnecessarily mean and judgemental of these girls before she knew the, and I wish she'd explained a bit of that, humanized them more to her friends, who are still stuck in that mindset.
They were toxic BUT Andie didn't quit because of them. There's this misunderstanding that she quit the job at the end of the movie because she thought her friends were right and wanted to rejoin them. She didn't. Andie quit the job because she felt it wasn't ethical anymore. If she wanted to quit because of the friends, she would've done it before Paris. But she went ahead, so she was willing to drop them.
Agree with the folks stating that the movie only has Andy apologize even tho she was not the only problem but also, Nate’s field is definitely also demanding af and literally right after they break up he gets a better position in Boston so tbh, it’s giving he felt insecure not doing more toward his own ambitions and berated her for trying when he wasn’t really. Overall, he couldn’t be supportive for one year and he blamed her for that when he could’ve literally just said our lifestyles aren’t compatible right now but I wish you the best, and the movie rewards that behavior by forcing Andy to be the only one who apologizes. Hate that.
What took me out of the movie is the knowledge that the bf is a chef and actually had time to have a birthday party and be upset that his gf's job was demanding. From my limited knowledge of the food/restaurant industry, being a chef is extremely demanding, so the amount of free time he has in the film is unrealistic
I have the same problem I have with the last video, and this is a problem with the movie which leads to the problems with the analysis for me-there’s so much vilification or blaming of Andy for making these “choices,” when it’s IN THE MOVIE that Miranda will ruin people’s careers, and that this job is temporary. Miranda is toxic, and Andy has to adapt to thrive in this toxic environment which is bad, but people act like she could just quit and just ignore the phone and just not go to Paris, but the movie makes it clear if she does ANY of these things, her future is ruined by Miranda because Miranda makes those threats. Miranda makes a good recommendation for Andy because she had worked so hard and proven herself meaning all her sacrifices throughout the movie DID help her succeed like she intended. The fact Nate doesn’t understand this and isn’t supportive from the scenes we see is why he gets heat from the comments. Doesn’t mean he’s toxic, we know who the toxic one is, it’s that he misses the bigger picture. Short term suffering and risk for long term reward.
Of course I think your analyses are correct as well. It’s just a very complicated topic and because we’re in such a work-motivated society, there’s gonna be a lot of discussion and disagreements. I think our generation (millenials) were taught such a grind mindset where we have to work and suffer toxic environments for success but the suffering is higher for a lower reward unlike our parents who worked hard but got properly incentivized for their hard work-and only recently that mindset seems to be changing with gen z calling out toxic work environments and how we’re not getting what we deserve from our hard work
Andy made mistakes but I see them as her being a stressed person in a toxic environment giving her literal trauma, and her friends and boyfriend not helping her, and being upset when she starts being successful, which is a big Red flag to me. True it coulda been solved by a convo of “we’re happy youre successful but don’t let them turn you into a bad person” but that convo does not exist so as it is I think Andy simply outgrew her friends in a way. Doesnt make them toxic, just like you said, mediocre, and it didnt help andys situation
About your last paragraph: Andy's trauma is to big to be handled by her friends. -Also when Andy keeps saying "I don't ahve a choice" it dose come of as an excuse because part of her started to like this world which influences he choices but she never admits that, when saying "I don't have a choice."
As for Andy’s boyfriend’s behavior:
I could understand his reaction to Andy’s behavior if she was going to work for Miranda indefinitely, but Andy repeatedly said she was only doing it for a year. He could have held out for a year. After that, things would have gone back to normal
If toxic means continued damaging behavior, then to me they are toxic by being constantly judgmental and unsupportive to her.
Here's the thing. Like most people he isn't thinking about her and helping her realise where she stands. He is chastising her for not being who she was, telling her off for changing into someone else. Understandable. But not ok.
I'm calling malarkey on this. We all know that Miranda would make it impossible for Andy to get a job doing what she wants anywhere else if she messed up or quit. I think that her friends and boyfriend don't realise that she genuinely doesn't have a choice, and from their perspective it all just looks like excuses. I'm not saying that Andy doesn't make any mistakes, she absolutely does, but she really doesn't have as much choice as everyone keeps insisting that she does.
Andy chose to walk away, it just took until the end of the movie.
@@natkatmacyes but at that point she felt that if she didn't walk away she'd end up like Miranda, and it was essentially a choice between her morals and a dream life. She didn't expect Miranda to stand up for her after that
@@gilberttrancy7300 point that Jon and the movie itself is making is that the choice is always there even if she can't see it. She could've left earlier, could've seen how it was turning her into a worse person earlier. Inaction is as much of a choice as action is. Inaction has consequences just like action does. Like you said, she had no idea that Miranda would've given a recommendation so what choice does she think she's making at that moment that's different than every other day that she chose to work? It's the same choice, she just weighed the consequences differently.
If you read the book, she doesn't get Miranda's recommendation. She has to move to another state and start over but still lives a happier life.
I think my biggest issue with Nate in his reaction to her not being available all the time, is that he works in a kitchen! Surely he understands the harsh realities of competitive jobs in big cities. Surely he has been unavailable in his personal relationships when he's had an opportunity at work. Kitchens are notorious for being run by demanding chefs and that everyone working in the kitchen will have to work reeeeeally long hours! So him being so rude and passive aggressive when she missed ONE birthday party....?! I'd love to know all the commitments he had to miss because of work. He strikes me as someone that's "do as I say not as I do".
I just don't think either of them are mature enough to have the conversations that need to be had.
I just know that if Andy were my friend, I'd say to her... how are you? How can I help you, instead of mocking her...
I wouldn't say they are toxic, but personally I think they were very fast to cut her off as soon as she did something they didn't agree with. Sounds like they only want to be her friends when she falls in line with their needs.
They should definitely call her out for losing herself in this job, but what they did was get mad at her and make her feel guilty because their needs were not being met
Wow, reading the comments - I think a brilliant case has been made for the friends and boyfriend being toxic!! Y'all raised some great points!!
A brief summary won't really do it much justice, but I'll try:
- Nate's job as a chef being so demanding of his time, that he should be more sympathetic to Andy's situation
- The lack of apology in the hot potato phone scene when the friends had crossed the line
- The fact that her friends/ bf created an environment where Andy can't show that she is actually enjoying her job as time goes on, and that doing so is betraying who she really is - which leads on to a point, that since she was always ambitious, it's possible that her friends maybe never understood her (yikes!!)
- The attitude of her friends/ bf wanting her to quit the job, just to spend more time with them is selfishly unrealistic, especially in today's climate (2024, in comparison to when the film came out, pre-2008-recession), when jobs that pay rent, in an expensive city are REALLY hard to come by, and it is very common to work for cruel bosses in jobs you don't necessarily enjoy. It is very common now for people to work long hours to make ends meet, but people don't take it out on their loved ones like the friends/ bf in TDWP - they are more empathetic and find ways to spend time together that fit around everyone's busy schedules.
- The hypocrisy of gender roles with how the film ends: it's more acceptable for a man to be working late/ advancing his career and considered normal almost, in comparison to a woman doing the same thing (which ties into the first point). Nate inviting Andy to quit everything she's worked so hard for, to move with him for his new job, when he did not show that level of sacrifice/ support throughout the whole film.
- A bit of sexism: it's bad for Andy to be girly and/or look pretty and care about her appearance. It just shouldn't bother Nate that much - the guy literally uses it as a dig at her, like looking pretty is a bad thing!! I think that is a VERY toxic trait in a relationship.
- It's quite one sided: Andy goes on a journey of self-discovery and empathy by the end of the film, for the fashion industry, and her bf/ friends didn't change their views - Nate in particular looked down on the industry, and never grew to respect Andy's newfound appreciation for it.
There are probably many more reasons, but these were the ones I saw mentioned the most and I agree with. In the video, I think the friends' actions on the surface/ face value might not seem so toxic as individual, isolated incidents, but when you take a step back, and see the whole picture you can kinda see a lack of respect and support for a hard working, ambitious main character, which to me crosses the line into being toxic, when you realise what they are asking of Andy in context.
The boyfriend and friends honestly make me so angry in this movie. Andy is doing what she needs to do to get to where she wants to be. "I didn't have a choice" okay so the choice is do what is expected of her at work or risk losing her job, her reference, and quite possibly putting a black mark on her overall goals. So yes, if she wants to keep those things, she needs to dress the part. She needs to work late. She might miss things. She's got to mingle at parties with (hot or not) people in her field.
I honestly don't see any of these personality changes that people accuse her of. She's giving gifts. She's bringing her boyfriend a cupcake to celebrate as soon as she gets home. She's at her friend's art show giving her love. They are not toxic but they ARE extremely unsupportive, and in that way they are really not being good friends.
Andy is in an abusive relationship with her boss. And when someone you love is in an abusive relationship, it is so important to be there for them, be understanding. Listen to them, let them vent. Getting angry with the person being abused only alienates that person more and makes it harder.
It's really sad, honestly.
The point of the telephone scenne is that they accept gifts from her work, talk about how they love it but then, disrespect it, play with it. Is like going to a friends house, eating her mom' s food, sleeping there and enjoying all the things she would offer, but when your friend is at your house and her momma calls you start to make moan sounds.
I feel like what upset me most was that there was a very definite point where Andy would leave this job from the very beginning, which was only a year. They all knew, she'd have to put up with this stress and the immense workload for only a year and afterwards she'd get to choose her dream career. But they couldn't support her and be lenient for some of the balls she dropped during that time? So what if she missed a party or a birthday or whatever it is that she missed. She'll be there next year. And the year after. While she's thriving in a job she truly loves. If you can't support your friend and appreciate the effort they put in to make up for the pressure of their job for a year, you're kind of an a-hole.
And also what others have already said: Nate is never shown to be wrong. He's so condescending and doesn't even try to understand what it is that Andy starts to enjoy about her work. For him it's all just silly vapid fashion nonsense that is not worth his time. And then she goes back to him in the end without him having to apologise or anything. Infuriating.
Thank you! Nate does not take a second to see what is it about this job she is starting to enjoy, why has she changed. He acts like she has no right to change and I think Andy doesn't feel like she can talk to him about this "girly" stuff. He was set in his ways. Also when he says "with a little dignity"-dignity according to who? Him?
I know what it's like when your partner doesn't understand what your job is about and what it means to you. I am an opera singer who was in a long-distance relationship. The guy insisted on me coming to live with him but I explained it wasn't possible because his country didn't offer full-time employment in my profession. He kept saying that I should quit and go work in an office. For him a job is just a job. But for me it was something extremely important. And yes, my choice was to stay on my job. Boyfriends come and go while your life and opportunities you get are what stays with you forever.
To me the “toxicity” comes across even more if you extrapolate their behaviour outside of the scenes. Nate especially in the bday scene basically waits for her to come home only to demonstratively go to bed, and this is just childish and unnecessary. He was frustrated and he wanted her to feel as bad as he did. Regarding the friends they at no point say “you can do this. It’s hard but it’s just a few more months.” Instead they are making it even harder for her and are only positive when they reap the benefits. I guess what I’m trying to say is we only get a few snippets of their interactions and maybe if that was all then it would be fine, but we can assume that that was their behaviour through the year (only a year might I add). Andy changed because she had to. Otherwise her job would have been even more miserable than it already was. And at a time when she is just trying to survive at work instead of picking her up her friends are just stepping down on her.