One of the most electrifying moments in my entire cinematic experience is the scene in which Neo becomes reborn as a whole new, vastly more powerful and illuminated being. All the other dramatic events in all three movies cannot possibly compare to this one fantastic sequence.
Butterfly, The refusal of the call makes complete sense and the writer/director stated he used Campbell as a guide. He did NOT state he worshiped him. The refusal "moment" is seen in many myths. Whether it be described as a moment of "panic", etc. I suggest you take Campbell's advice and take a look at your own life. I bet you'll find moments of refusal all over the place.
A GREAT Joseph Campbell DVD is Sukhavati - I think that's how it's spelled. I saw it on PBS late at night and I was like YES! YES! It's very well done. Very entertaining yet very zen and mind blowing in scope and wisdom. Great background music over great mythical sybolic stories being told by Joseph Cambell. Wait till you actually hear this stuff from the Professor himself. just awesome
Also try some of Joseph Campbells tapes. He is a brillant generalist, he is comfortable with quantum physics and is on the cutting edge of all learning He explains things easily, his passion for the subject is contagious. Give Campbell a try!!!
@trakkaton there are more movies that follow this pattern than movies that don't. Star Wars is probably the easiest one to see, but pretty much any movie having to do with an adventure is going to follow this pattern. Some others movies off the top of my head: Back to the Future, Willow, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, Avatar (aka Pocahontas in Space), Wizard of Oz, E.T., Tenacious D: POD, etc. This pattern has been around as long as storytelling itself.
Anyone into Joseph Campbell should also check out Marshall McLuhan. His media observations add a spectacular layer not just to the Matrix, but to the evolution of metaphor and mythology in general.
Star Wars episode 4 completed the arc of the journey as well (Star Wars 4 and The Matrix are pretty much identical in terms of hero arc) but its sequel was better by far and one of the greatest movies of all time. : )
Joseph Campbell was highly educated, highly read, highly travelled...excellent in most ways...and when it came right down to it, the bottom line for him was... "Follow your bliss". After all that! And he's RIGHT.
@NinjaBearFighter Not necessarily true, after all, if you think about it, the original Star Wars movie was a full hero's journey arc as well as the beginning of an overarching arc over the next two movies. Likewise, every Harry Potter book features a complete hero's journey, but it gains much more meaning in the larger hero's journey that Harry travels over the seven books.
the refusal of the call is not a part of the adventure. it's an occasional alternative to the rest of the adventure. He probably didn't even read campbell's book past the table of contents.
There's something you don't know, and you don't know you don't know it, and that is that the speaker does actually know what he is talking about, has written a book about it, and so has Joseph Campbell, and most Hollywood movies follow this pattern whether you don't know it or not.
Chapter 2-refusal of the call. "Not infrequently in the myths and popular tales, we encouter the dull case of the call unanswered. (...) Refusal of the summons converts the adventure into its negative. Walled in boredom, the subject loses the power" etc. Chapter 3-supernatural aid "For those who have NOT REFUSED the call, th first encounter of the journey is with a protective figure (...)" -The Hero With a Thousand Faces, Joseph Campbell Buy the book, learn how to read, and THEN comment :)
Yup, you can. Actually, I am. We're discussing Campbell in our mythology class, and were asked to write a paper about a modern myth that fits in with Campbell's monomyth. Just finished it, from SCRATCH, and only now looked up this vid. Haha, I didn't realise that the makers were directly influenced by him. So I guess I reinvented a god damn wheel! But that's okay, I severly enjoyed the exercise :P. At least now, I know I'm right! -Rael
Hell yeah. In fact, George Lucas was like a "disciple" of Campbell, having spoken with him and learned much of what he knows about myth. I'd say the prequels can also constitute as the "hero quest" for Anakin Skywalker, and the original trilogy is like the "belly of the whale" for him, in which Anakin is trapped, until the very end when he breaks free and conquers his enemy, much like how Christ broke free of the tomb and conquered death.
Has anyone ever written a paper about a myth that didn't fit in with the monomyth? I read a passage in one of Campbell's Hero books that referred a portion of an Arabian Nights story as an example of an archetypal myth (maybe someone else remembers the details better; it began with two lovers finding each other across a vast distance). I read much of the rest of the story, but found that it wasn't structured to follow all the steps Campbell had outlined. Only some of the stages were there.
I gave a TEDx talk about the Monomyth and what we can learn from it about entrepreneurship. My really key point (about 2/3 of the way through) is a reference to The Matrix - check it out (The Entrepreneur's Journey in the video responses) and let me know what you think!
Agree 100%, The Hero's Journey and the PBS shows are fine but that's only the very first step. to stay there and always bandy it about is trendy and too easy. I much prefer his later works and his audio lectures where he gets much deeper into monomythic themes. And a quick word on the Matrix, while its a classic it does present a simplistic, binary view. While trendy to bash the sequels, they went for something beyond that and although parts may not've worked they deserve props for audacity.
Thanks for proving my point about how uneccesary it is that this exists. The people that can't apply it to their lives aren't the type of people who read this type of shit. People who can't think critically probably aren't gonna walk into a chapters. The only people who will even sit down long enough to listen to someone talk about this shit or crack a book on it is already capable of all that's been said. So the fact remains that it's nothing more than literary smut, unwarranted existence.
You don't have to be original, you just have to be genuine. You make a good point about kanye and quinten. But their art is still genuine. West hears some of the world's great art and it appeals to him, and he uses it to express himself because other people's art is part of his experience. Quinten imitates and stylizes the ways of 70s cheese films because he has a unique appretiaion for them. It now occurs to me that campbell could be the same.
The refusal of the call is not a part of the hero's adventure. I obviously don't care about your overall analysis of a book you haven't read: if you can find a quote in campbell's work that supports what this guy says at 0:49, and dirrectly contradicts the ones I shared, tell it to us. Otherwise, recognize you are absolutely wrong about a very simple matter.
i actually like the way they did it... they had no idea if this movie would be a hit or not, so they wrapped it up pretty neatly just in case - i'm always annoyed when a movie comes to a cliffhanger because almost always it doesn't make enough money and those who did like are stuck trying to answer questions that are never answered... i think b/w the last two films we get this arc only with the steps being longer... but i will say that the second film was my least favorite of the thre
I recommend to anyone who got interested in the monomyth to get the original books by Campbell and ignore the dozens of bastardizations and superficial variations of it that various authors and directors spread these days.
Stage *8 where the hero has to go through some kind of ordeal, some kind of test that may involve facing death. ---- Except you can leave out the word may.....
Certainly everyone knows it in their subconscious, but they can't apply it to their lives so it hurts society. They can't work through or deal with their life hardships so they feel like they have to steal or commit crimes. Campbell has much to say beyond the journey of the hero.
Has any mythologist ever tried to codify a "Villain Cycle"? IS there even a common pattern tend to follow like the hero, or is the concept of the Villain far too complex to narrow into a single thread?
It's cool to try and make a big story that takes something from sort of being the big modern example of the way all the great old stories are written, which seems what he initially describes. But that kind of fomula is also a really cheap way to make art. I guess what he's describing probably works best as a legend formula specifically, and seems more justified that way. But listening to someone talk about the scientific list of things needed to make great art is always a bit uninspiring for me.
Hero journey for dummies, is not casual that repeating the same raw formula that star wars give the matrix a similar impact to a new generation....Neo's journey is complete in the first movie, in the other two he is already a hero, almost another superman so hard to identify with...
the 12 steps of a hero's journey is literally a story structure that has existed since the dawn of humanity sooooo i rather see something more nuance then some cliche story structure we've seen a million times
@cropatia the flight at the end of the movie also referes to the 17 stages of JC Campbell's Monomyth: The Magic Flight Sometimes the hero must escape with the boon, if it is something that the gods have been jealously guarding. It can be just as adventurous and dangerous returning from the journey as it was to go on it. Campbell: "If the hero in his triumph wins the blessing of the goddess or the god and is then explicitly commissioned to return to the world with some elixir for the restorat
Yes there is a Villain Cycle. Mainly its based on succumbing to dark emotions and giving in to the dark feelings to the point of living in the negative realm, being consumed by it, and becoming the very thing you thought was Evil, or wrong, or unjust before and embracing it as what things should be like and how you should be the new leader of this dark way or a main participant. It is all over. For example my X girlfriend who was cheated on so much she became the very evil Cheater herself.
Are you insecure or just lazy? Why do you resort to insulting my person before even trying to deal with my ideas, or before i said anything insulting? Do you care to articulate your thoughts at all, since you bother to share them in any form, or do you just feel righteous trying to piss me off?
I just feel that a story that's arbitrarily designed to be emotionally effective to an audience in certain ways is kind of pretentious and hollow. Art should be more than a partly creative application of science. And though going on inspiration alone is really tough, and there would be alot less decent quallity art to fill the world coming from high-production half inspired artists, anyone who does excessively cheat their way through the process of inspiration is worthy of only modest praise.
But your talk about an artist doing what he has to to get the right rise out of his audience is what had me in disagreement, and still does. That's manipulation, and cold and meaningless. Whatever the product, the process that made the art is important. It's supposed to be about an individual with something to express, and heightened ability to do so. Then people relating to it is incidental, and as a result real. How can you draw inspiration from someone who doesn't even feel what they produce?
what everyone already was perfectly aware of = the obvious..thing is though, its not obvious to everyone. Most ppl are blind to the what seems obvious to some. I seriously doubt that more than 1 in 50 ppl are actually capable of critical thinking at any respectable level. Anyway, I think I will go watch some prime time TV, so I can be told what to buy and why I should want it.
One of the most electrifying moments in my entire cinematic experience is the scene in which Neo becomes reborn as a whole new, vastly more powerful and illuminated being. All the other dramatic events in all three movies cannot possibly compare to this one fantastic sequence.
"...and bring something back to share with everyone else, or it's a total waste of time..."
This perfectly articulates my thoughts back in 2003.
Amazing how faithfully the matrix follows the pattern
Joseph Campbell changed my life in 1994 and I'm not the same since.
Brilliant mind indeed, no doubt.
You should share something with us about that :)
Butterfly,
The refusal of the call makes complete sense and the writer/director stated he used Campbell as a guide. He did NOT state he worshiped him. The refusal "moment" is seen in many myths. Whether it be described as a moment of "panic", etc. I suggest you take Campbell's advice and take a look at your own life. I bet you'll find moments of refusal all over the place.
It has help me understand a great deal about what I have to go through to succeed in school.
I love randomly clicking on a Saturday, you find such gems. Like this....
Such a great movie to demonstrate the Monomyth.
A GREAT Joseph Campbell DVD is Sukhavati - I think that's how it's spelled. I saw it on PBS late at night and I was like YES! YES! It's very well done. Very entertaining yet very zen and mind blowing in scope and wisdom.
Great background music over great mythical sybolic stories being told by Joseph Cambell. Wait till you actually hear this stuff from the Professor himself. just awesome
Also try some of Joseph Campbells
tapes. He is a brillant generalist, he
is comfortable with quantum physics
and is on the cutting edge of all learning
He explains things easily, his passion
for the subject is contagious.
Give Campbell a try!!!
heinrich zimmer and joseph campbell: a must-read for everyone
I didn't know there was a Joseph Campbell analysis of the Matrix!! That's too awesome!!
Also, his (Campbell's) Mythos series 1 and 2 are not to be missed.
i'm trying to forgive myself
Yves V trying is enough, you are okay
loved reading about the stages
Love Joseph Campbell
thanks for making this
@trakkaton there are more movies that follow this pattern than movies that don't. Star Wars is probably the easiest one to see, but pretty much any movie having to do with an adventure is going to follow this pattern. Some others movies off the top of my head: Back to the Future, Willow, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, Avatar (aka Pocahontas in Space), Wizard of Oz, E.T., Tenacious D: POD, etc. This pattern has been around as long as storytelling itself.
This also helps explain why the other two werent a good. You can't have a trilogy when the arc of the journey is completed fully in the first movie.
EXACTLY the problem. A timeless, successful template followed by the plot-equivalent of scrambled eggs
Lotr
U then r as deep as a puddle
I don't see the karate kid in these Campbell videos. Or Rocky, both created by the same dude. back to the future follows this theme as well
Anyone into Joseph Campbell should also check out Marshall McLuhan. His media observations add a spectacular layer not just to the Matrix, but to the evolution of metaphor and mythology in general.
Dec 2019. Welcome to desert of the real.
You ain't seen nothin yet, my friend!
Star Wars episode 4 completed the arc of the journey as well (Star Wars 4 and The Matrix are pretty much identical in terms of hero arc) but its sequel was better by far and one of the greatest movies of all time. : )
Joseph Campbell was highly educated, highly read, highly travelled...excellent in most ways...and when it came right down to it, the bottom line for him was... "Follow your bliss". After all that! And he's RIGHT.
@NinjaBearFighter Not necessarily true, after all, if you think about it, the original Star Wars movie was a full hero's journey arc as well as the beginning of an overarching arc over the next two movies. Likewise, every Harry Potter book features a complete hero's journey, but it gains much more meaning in the larger hero's journey that Harry travels over the seven books.
I'm getting this. I think who ever read these books have to potential to do great things... AWSOME...
Amazing
thanks for posting this
Glad u liked this
Hey Thanks JEN.. ILL check it out and get back to you....
the refusal of the call is not a part of the adventure. it's an occasional alternative to the rest of the adventure. He probably didn't even read campbell's book past the table of contents.
There's something you don't know, and you don't know you don't know it, and that is that the speaker does actually know what he is talking about, has written a book about it, and so has Joseph Campbell, and most Hollywood movies follow this pattern whether you don't know it or not.
I good explanation of events but the Matrix has much more hidden knowledge than just this.
Absolutely.
Chapter 2-refusal of the call.
"Not infrequently in the myths and popular tales, we encouter the dull case of the call unanswered. (...) Refusal of the summons converts the adventure into its negative. Walled in boredom, the subject loses the power" etc.
Chapter 3-supernatural aid
"For those who have NOT REFUSED the call, th first encounter of the journey is with a protective figure (...)"
-The Hero With a Thousand Faces, Joseph Campbell
Buy the book, learn how to read, and THEN comment :)
Yup, you can. Actually, I am. We're discussing Campbell in our mythology class, and were asked to write a paper about a modern myth that fits in with Campbell's monomyth. Just finished it, from SCRATCH, and only now looked up this vid. Haha, I didn't realise that the makers were directly influenced by him. So I guess I reinvented a god damn wheel! But that's okay, I severly enjoyed the exercise :P. At least now, I know I'm right!
-Rael
I'm actually getting this.. Its coming in to focus...
Hell yeah. In fact, George Lucas was like a "disciple" of Campbell, having spoken with him and learned much of what he knows about myth.
I'd say the prequels can also constitute as the "hero quest" for Anakin Skywalker, and the original trilogy is like the "belly of the whale" for him, in which Anakin is trapped, until the very end when he breaks free and conquers his enemy, much like how Christ broke free of the tomb and conquered death.
Has anyone ever written a paper about a myth that didn't fit in with the monomyth? I read a passage in one of Campbell's Hero books that referred a portion of an Arabian Nights story as an example of an archetypal myth (maybe someone else remembers the details better; it began with two lovers finding each other across a vast distance). I read much of the rest of the story, but found that it wasn't structured to follow all the steps Campbell had outlined. Only some of the stages were there.
Ivan Dorin yes, Not Every story needs to contain ALL of the Elements, Just the major ones...
i agree. if the student does not graduate from matrix part.i then the student is unable to fully appreciate part.ii and part.iii
I gave a TEDx talk about the Monomyth and what we can learn from it about entrepreneurship. My really key point (about 2/3 of the way through) is a reference to The Matrix - check it out (The Entrepreneur's Journey in the video responses) and let me know what you think!
Your teacher is probably making you watch this
Agree 100%, The Hero's Journey and the PBS shows are fine but that's only the very first step. to stay there and always bandy it about is trendy and too easy. I much prefer his later works and his audio lectures where he gets much deeper into monomythic themes.
And a quick word on the Matrix, while its a classic it does present a simplistic, binary view. While trendy to bash the sequels, they went for something beyond that and although parts may not've worked they deserve props for audacity.
Thanks for proving my point about how uneccesary it is that this exists.
The people that can't apply it to their lives aren't the type of people who read this type of shit. People who can't think critically probably aren't gonna walk into a chapters.
The only people who will even sit down long enough to listen to someone talk about this shit or crack a book on it is already capable of all that's been said.
So the fact remains that it's nothing more than literary smut, unwarranted existence.
George Lucas also used Campbell's work to inspire the story lines for the Star Wars films.
You don't have to be original, you just have to be genuine. You make a good point about kanye and quinten. But their art is still genuine. West hears some of the world's great art and it appeals to him, and he uses it to express himself because other people's art is part of his experience. Quinten imitates and stylizes the ways of 70s cheese films because he has a unique appretiaion for them. It now occurs to me that campbell could be the same.
The refusal of the call is not a part of the hero's adventure. I obviously don't care about your overall analysis of a book you haven't read: if you can find a quote in campbell's work that supports what this guy says at 0:49, and dirrectly contradicts the ones I shared, tell it to us. Otherwise, recognize you are absolutely wrong about a very simple matter.
Does the hero's journey usually include two sucky sequels?
i actually like the way they did it... they had no idea if this movie would be a hit or not, so they wrapped it up pretty neatly just in case - i'm always annoyed when a movie comes to a cliffhanger because almost always it doesn't make enough money and those who did like are stuck trying to answer questions that are never answered... i think b/w the last two films we get this arc only with the steps being longer... but i will say that the second film was my least favorite of the thre
I recommend to anyone who got interested in the monomyth to get the original books by Campbell and ignore the dozens of bastardizations and superficial variations of it that various authors and directors spread these days.
Stage *8 where the hero has to go through some kind of ordeal, some kind of test that may involve facing death.
----
Except you can leave out the word may.....
If you look on the special features, look for a red bean ( Which is the pill it just looks like a bean)
Certainly everyone knows it in their subconscious, but they can't apply it to their lives so it hurts society. They can't work through or deal with their life hardships so they feel like they have to steal or commit crimes. Campbell has much to say beyond the journey of the hero.
Has any mythologist ever tried to codify a "Villain Cycle"? IS there even a common pattern tend to follow like the hero, or is the concept of the Villain far too complex to narrow into a single thread?
Attending the Univers ity!
Is there a second movie for which this paraphasing works?
@eggory totally agree
By reading them.
campbell is genius.
Attending the University!
It's cool to try and make a big story that takes something from sort of being the big modern example of the way all the great old stories are written, which seems what he initially describes. But that kind of fomula is also a really cheap way to make art. I guess what he's describing probably works best as a legend formula specifically, and seems more justified that way. But listening to someone talk about the scientific list of things needed to make great art is always a bit uninspiring for me.
This type of theory is exactly why im so fed up with most movies. Its soooo predictable they are starting to suck
Hummm, agora faz sentido.
Hero journey for dummies, is not casual that repeating the same raw formula that star wars give the matrix a similar impact to a new generation....Neo's journey is complete in the first movie, in the other two he is already a hero, almost another superman so hard to identify with...
Why is this guy not producing the current Star Wars films?
the 12 steps of a hero's journey is literally a story structure that has existed since the dawn of humanity sooooo i rather see something more nuance then some cliche story structure we've seen a million times
@cropatia the flight at the end of the movie also referes to the 17 stages of JC Campbell's Monomyth:
The Magic Flight
Sometimes the hero must escape with the boon, if it is something that the gods have been jealously guarding. It can be just as adventurous and dangerous returning from the journey as it was to go on it.
Campbell: "If the hero in his triumph wins the blessing of the goddess or the god and is then explicitly commissioned to return to the world with some elixir for the restorat
Check out the arabian nights edited by Campbell
Not Kaplan... UMUC.
solar mythology
my english class watched this
Yes there is a Villain Cycle. Mainly its based on succumbing to dark emotions and giving in to the dark feelings to the point of living in the negative realm, being consumed by it, and becoming the very thing you thought was Evil, or wrong, or unjust before and embracing it as what things should be like and how you should be the new leader of this dark way or a main participant. It is all over. For example my X girlfriend who was cheated on so much she became the very evil Cheater herself.
@tubeuseryou101 its already been done search for it online
Are you insecure or just lazy? Why do you resort to insulting my person before even trying to deal with my ideas, or before i said anything insulting? Do you care to articulate your thoughts at all, since you bother to share them in any form, or do you just feel righteous trying to piss me off?
I just feel that a story that's arbitrarily designed to be emotionally effective to an audience in certain ways is kind of pretentious and hollow. Art should be more than a partly creative application of science. And though going on inspiration alone is really tough, and there would be alot less decent quallity art to fill the world coming from high-production half inspired artists, anyone who does excessively cheat their way through the process of inspiration is worthy of only modest praise.
@VrtirepkaST how
But your talk about an artist doing what he has to to get the right rise out of his audience is what had me in disagreement, and still does. That's manipulation, and cold and meaningless. Whatever the product, the process that made the art is important. It's supposed to be about an individual with something to express, and heightened ability to do so. Then people relating to it is incidental, and as a result real. How can you draw inspiration from someone who doesn't even feel what they produce?
CM 107
what everyone already was perfectly aware of = the obvious..thing is though, its not obvious to everyone. Most ppl are blind to the what seems obvious to some. I seriously doubt that more than 1 in 50 ppl are actually capable of critical thinking at any respectable level.
Anyway, I think I will go watch some prime time TV, so I can be told what to buy and why I should want it.
Theres not enough recipes for storys. New ones just seam to be to soon for the audience. Its as if all the popular films are the same stupid story
they got most of Ghost in shell ideas to make the Matrix
college comp... lol
Joseph Cambell may be the most boring person on Earth
Brendan McNally, how many of the 7 billion have you heard from?
Attending the Univers ity!