I think there was a small, but significant part, that was missed here, the part where Tom says, "You've hurt me more than you could possibly imagine." Which immediately took me back to the part in season 3 where they're having the "dirty talk" session and she basically teases him for wanting her despite knowing that she doesn't love him. And I think that is at the core of what the problem is with their relationship. Not that Shiv is selfish and Tom is not, but rather there's a severe power imbalance in their relationship and Shiv abuses it a lot, without fear of the consequences it has.
Great point. The joke which sets him off at dinner with Roman & Tabitha is about him looking like a hick. She calls him a hick in this fight, too, another way of saying he’s not good enough for her, that she’s a queen and he’s a peasant.
That was the most impactful line of the fight. I don't know why I didn't include it here tbh In terms of the whole "you dont deserve me" and "i dont love you" stuff, I dont believe her now, and i dont think she meant it in the past either. she was just trying to do dirty talk. the next day, I was surprised that Tom was so hurt by it. not saying he's wrong to feel that way. but if i had been in his shoes, i would've found it funny you're right that she has abused the power balance at times, most notably by forcing him to pursue her agenda with Pierce at his own expense. that was low another issue that i wish i had mentioned is about their bubbles. Shiv's entire life has been one of the elites. We all know that elites rarely ever spend time behind bars. He opened up to her about his concerns a few times, but she never truly listened and realized that his concerns about prison were real. That might have just been a blind spot that her life of being elite wouldn't allow her to see
@@rouxbe3595 Tom in return has used ‘jokes’ badly too. The scorpion is one. That animal is ugly, vicious, and deadly. Doubt Shiv liked it & it spewed into her behavior throughout the evening. Bad joke, Tom, bad joke.
@@ceciliaSF-TX I thought the scorpion was a reference to the fable of the scorpion & the frog. The scorpion needs a ride on the frog’s back to cross a river, and assures the frog there’ll be no sting on the ride because if the frog gets killed, they’ll both drown. Midway across, the scorpion stings, and when the frog asks why, the scorpion says, “It’s my nature, I couldn’t do otherwise.” Tom says, “You’re the scorpion, you kill me, I kill you.” It’s like he’s warning her, but at the same time, acknowledging it’s her nature, and she can’t help herself even if it’s self-destructive.
@@bridge4 Agree with you that she doesn’t mean it, but she knows saying it really stings Tom. I’ve been trying to understand why he doesn’t laugh it off or take as a point of pride. He doesn’t seem particularly insecure about his relatively humble origins in any other context. In “Austerlitz” Logan says to Shiv in front of Tom, “You’re marrying a man fathoms beneath you because you don’t want to risk being betrayed. You’re a coward.” I wonder if Shiv believes Logan. She keeps saying that Tom is beneath her, like some twisted incantation that’s supposed to protect her from betrayal.
I think Shiv loves Tom more than she is willing to admit. It's hard for her to trust anyone but herself. She is willing to ask Logan to protect Tom, but she isn't willing to tell Tom that because it would show too much emotional vulnerability. She wants an open relationship, but she still shows some jealousy toward women Tom is interested in. She could have let Tom go to jail, she could've lied about the affairs, and most importantly, she could have gotten an abortion. These moments don't benefit Shiv in any way and Shiv is incredibly selfish. Tom tries to communicate with Shiv but she always shuts it down; just like her mother. I believe Tom does love Shiv more than money and power. Tom would have been happy if he just had a normal marriage and Shiv never joined the family business. The more Shiv pushes him away the more he needed to cling to Logan; because if he can't be loved at least he could be rich.
To love and be loved you need to have a good self-esteem. This isn't the case for Shiv who grew up in a misogynistic and toxic family , and without love from her parents. She was taughthat having feelings is an unforgivable weakness. So she suppressed them untill she scheduls them. Note that Shiv and Tom kept their wedding rings all the season 4. Except Tom who doesn't have it at the start of e1 but has it at the end of it. End of SCRIPT BOOK for Shiv and Tom in the car : An accomodation, an equilibrium, that could last with a certain stabilty, proxy wars and detentes for many years to come...nothing needy from either side. A queen and a prince. Two bombs transported with great care. Podcast HBO SUCCESSION "With open eyes" Part II with Mark Mylod (who directed 16 episodes). UA-cam
I just finished going through the comments on the last video, and a few people mentioned that. I live in a bubble, so I wasn't aware of that view of Shiv and Tom until those message. I can understand where it comes from though. Tom has grown on my soooo much over the last season or 2. And our memories are flawed. So it's easy to fall into the trap of picking a side. And, if I did that, it would probably be Tom. But like you said, they are both complex characters =))
She is not only completely selfish BUT OBLIVIOUS...and that's the part that's scary that she doesn't even realize how much she hurts him which is why..........HORRIBLE MOTHER
Well... Shiv is a completely selfish and conniving person. But, its not entirely her fault. Its how she was raised. And if she is to be a good mother, she had better get some therapy. Because her child, will not understand it. Abuse repeats itself. She is complex. But being complex doesn't give you the right to throw knives at your husbands back and cheat on everyone in the name of personal interest. Even Roman, tells her she could use some therapy and she's more messed up than he is. He wasn't joking.
Honestly after watching this, I have to agree with you. Although we see Shiv as an often selfish and free spirited behavior, she did love Tom in a way. I'm glad I got to see this smashing series❤
I truly hope they figure things out, they are the most compelling couple in TV at the moment, basically because their fighting feels real. It's not a romcom where they essentially fight over nothing, they have real, existing issues.
i dont know where i stood at the begining of the season. in a way, i wanted Tom to move on. but i also suspected that he didnt want to move on, so i was hoping they'd find a way to be happy. and now, that's firmly where i stand. im with you in hoping that they figure things out asap!! =))
Shiv is afraid of appearing weak in any capacity to any person. If any person has seen that, Shiv feels it necessary to assert control over that person. This is what we are seeing with Tom. That and Shiv's convoluted view of emotional vulnerability and weakness.
@@bridge4 That's really hard to answer. I'd like to think the start of a new beginning but they both have to want to fix their relationship and want to be honest with each other. Tom's anger is currently overpowering that as he seems to feel the need to cut Shiv as deep as Shiv cut him. Shiv telling the truth about her pregnancy will be the make or break point. I think it's something Tom wants bad enough, he would do anything. I feel like Shiv has always wanted a normal functioning family, and she has that option with Tom but felt threatened by it when she first experienced it. People feel comfortable in what they know, even if it means recreating trauma from their past. For some people, it is less scary than the unknown. The pregnancy comes with a hard "due date" for a decision between the two worlds. Regardless it's the writers decision, and if it doesn't work out for them, I'll be one sad duck.
I have to agree. Shiv, being the only woman, young girl in her household had to fight her brothers to be heard. Her father just gave her things as he really did not know what else to do with her. Being the only girl, she just about got away with things that her brothers could not. Remember the scene when she and Roman got into a brawl and Tom walked in and walked right back out again. It appeared that Shiv was physically holding her own. The boys, more or less, had their expected life in the company assigned for them. For Shiv, the assumption is GET MARRIED. Shiv wanted other experiences until Tom. I truly believe that Shiv did what she could to aid Tom's career goals, but she wanted his gains to be due to her largesse. It got to be obvious to Tom that Shiv was not going to satisfy her own goals in the family business, so he struck out on his own. It was pretty obvious that Shiv was not going to be CEO and her brothers would fight her at every turn. He hitched his plight to Logan in defiance of Shiv who does not like to be defied. In truth, Shiv did not know her husband very well --- he was smarter than all of the siblings (combined). Logan did not keep him around for his good looks. Loyalty counts and I think that Logan appreciated it and was convinced that Tom loved Shiv. Tom learned the job of a CEO, while the siblings fought their father. Was Shiv the Scorpion? I don't think so. Tom knew that she was going to be between a rock and a hard place. I think Tom just had her deliver a message to her brothers ---- she is a Wambsgam and era of Roy is over. Logan died. I think that it was his way of building a new family dynasty.
I've seen that "No, honey, you can't" clip used a lot in dissections of this fight, but what always seems to get left out is that almost immediately after that line Shiv starts listing the advantages of offering to go to prison. I don't think it's as rock solid of a "discouragement" as all that when placed in context.
Yeah, argument could be made that she needed to say that, so it wouldn't be obvious she wanted him in prison (kind of a smokescreen). She is definetly manipulative, so it's entirely possible that with saying "No, honey, you can't" she was just hiding her intensions, but maybe this theory is too far-fetched. After all, she needed her emontional tampoo.
When is Tom responsible for his own decisions though? She maneuvered so he wouldn’t be the one to go down for it. And then when Kendall decides he’s not going to do it, Tom volunteers. Now he blaming her for not telling him no enough? He is responsible for that choice.
@Adrian Olkowski I don't know if she was even necessarily deliberately manipulating him, but I feel like Tom was probably hoping for a "No, please, don't go to prison, I need you" (not exactly Shiv's kind of line) and instead got "no, of course not.... unless...."
@Raine I for sure, and I think it's to a certain degree Tom's fault for not communicating his needs more often. Saying "hey honey how would you feel about me being in prison for a bit?" as a test of affection is.... not a great strategy for good communication lol At the same time, it's hard watching the man extend emotional tendrils out to his wife over and over again only for her to repeatedly brush them off. The right call for Tom would have been to say something the first time he felt like she didn't care about his feelings-- but then he'd be just like Nate, who "broke" when she played with him
i hear ya. i didnt give the full context in this video, because i had addressed that in more detail in the last one, so i didnt want people to hear too much of the same stuff a second time but you're right, she very quickly went from a "no" to a "thats genius"
7:45 I think it's unfair to blame Tom for marrying Shiv despite having suspicions about her faithfulness, when he is a clear victim in this case. I don't know what would I do if I were in his place, just before the ceremony. I think disbelief is a natural reaction and we shouldn't dilute Shiv's blame. I think Shiv's biggest mistake is that she hasn't made him feel loved. The loving part of Tom was unsatisfied, so when he had slightest suspicions that she wasn't serving her intrests in company (when he asked where his place is after coup in S3E9, she just said "somwhere high"), the ambitious-carrer half was also unsatifies and he saw no use in not betraying her. It was dick move to say the least, but it was understandable - that's why I think more people sympathise with Tom more than with Shiv
blaming Tom is not really what i meant with those lines, but im more of a numbers guy than a words guy. and even i realized that the way i said that sounded off. so i understand your response and agree with you. Greg gave Tom a heads up, but it is completely understandable why Tom temporarily protected himself through denial. I would have probably done the same thing as him. With that said, it was a mistake because he did have the information ahead of time. a very human mistake to make though
Tom, from the start, never was 'smart' at his job no matter which one it was. He's always been an empty suit - and a bullying empty suit at that. He does not know how to handle adversity, which was clear when he first discarded company documents and literally *used* Greg to do it. He went around counting 'snack waste' and couldn't even fire people he thought he needed to - he used Gregg for that, too. All he cared about was pleasing Logan. Period. He couldn't faithfully handle election night as head of ATN. He will always be a puppet child needing to be stroked and taking credit where credit is not due as when he wanted Mencken to believe he called the election. Though each family member is screwed up, only they put up with Logan and his antics for 30 odd years and pay for it mightily now just trying to get through life. Only they have had CEO dangled and retrieved from them over and again. Only a family member deserves that CEO spot.
One more point I would make....On the night before their wedding Tom asked Shiv is this was real and he asked her if she was screwing around on him...he said they didn't have to go through with the wedding. She lied to him saying she was not screwing around on him and that it was real (maybe that part was true). He went through with the wedding on that reassurance. It was on their wedding night that she brought up an open marriage and confirmed that she had indeed cheated with Nate. I think Tom changed tremendously through the series...He might be an ambitious ahole but he did love her and expected a normal marriage. These two need couples therapy to communicate! I think she loved him to the best of her ability, but she is far more broken than he is. Could it ever work? Who knows.
i was interesting to see how you were going to end that. i didnt expect you to be pulling for them. but im totally with you. they have a lot of work to do. is it possible? i dont know. but i hope so! =))
The toxic power dynamic here is so well written and performed . I think they do love each other but mostly, they believe they need each other to succeed, they truly use one another for their own convince, to the point where hurting each other really badly is no longer a limit to their decisions. A marriage with that foundation will only last for as long as they both get something, which could be a few months or forever. Now, could they ever be happy together? Im not sure because now that Tom is CEO, I think he’ll only be submissive to Mattson… with Shiv, he’s ready to show his truest colors, and considering he’s not exactly like Logan, could it be a good thing for their now growing family? On the other hand, Shiv is nothing like her mother so I don’t think she’ll become her…
Note that Shiv and Tom kept their wedding rings all the season 4. Except Tom who doesn't have it at the start of e1 but has it at the end of it. End of SCRIPT BOOK for Shiv and Tom : An accomodation, an equilibrium, that could last with a certain stabilty, proxy wars and detentes for many years to come...nothing needy from either side. A queen and a prince. Two bombs transported with great care. Podcast HBO SUCCESSION "With open eyes" Part II with Mark Mylod (who directed 16 episodes). UA-cam
Shiv actually publicly supported idea of sacrificing Tom during discussion at the yacht, and she dismissed his every concern when prison was a real possibility, so it's not like she was completely innocent in this regard.
After Tom denied the threesome, Shiv left the room to speak to Logan. We didn't find out what happened in that scene until the end of the episode. But it is implied that she threw out Kendal's name as the sacrifice. At the table, Shiv pretended to go along with Tom, but she tried to explain to Tom on the beach that she did that as a way of looking unbiased. When they got back to the boat, she spoke to Logan again, and this time we saw it. She asked him if he had considered Kendal as they had spoke about. She also begged him to choose anyone other that Tom. So, I could totally see why Tom would be hurt by that. I would have been hurt as well. But he doesn't realize that she went to bat for him both before the table scene and after. In terms of prison, Shiv lives a bubble of elites. So she didn't consider prison a real possibility. He address his concerns three (or maybe even four times), and she totally blew him off. I'm with ya. The last time, she even snapped at him. It wasn't until then that she acknowledged his pain, so that stinks. But she did finally acknowledge it and went over to comfort him, but he pushed her away. Not long after, he was cleared. So I hear ya. And I understand why Tom felt betrayed by her. But I don't think Shiv's indifference was as malicious as Tom believes it was. It was just a function of her privileged place in society, and she eventually realized that Tom did not feel as safe as she thought he was.
@@bridge4 I love you so much for actually having critical thinking skills. So many breaking bad transport fans here hating on Shiv on the basis of nothing but pure bigotry and misogyny like they hated Skyler
I'm not sure if you forgot the part on the yacht when Shiv essentially gave any power that she may have had to Logan, when she approached him and asked for it to be anyone but Tom. I tend to think that this didn't influence Logan, but he certainly made Shiv think that he did her that favor. However throughout the 3rd season Tom regularly brought up the scenario of going to jail/prison and Shiv didn't seem too concerned by ti.
I worded stuff poorly, and I'm sure I'm misremembering and misinterpreting stuff. But I do try to be unbiased, so thank you for the kind words =)) side note. I hate that Shiv and love Tom. lol just messing with ya :-P
yo waddup Doc! yeah, i brushed past that one a little faster in this video since I had played the Caroline clip in the last one, and didnt want this to be too repetitive but together, her being pregnant AND Caroline's conversation made Tom's attack line hit hard!
I used to think that Tom was awesome, and Shiv was annoying. Now, I love Tom, and I'm starting to love Shiv again, too. This show is such a rollercoaster! Great analogy btw. That was them 100%
Amazingly thorough and nuanced analysis! I’m obsessed with this show, and have watched every episode twice, and then did a binge rewatch of the first 3 seasons before season 4 started, but you pulled out so many subtle points from previous scenes that I had forgotten, or missed. This show is rich & dense, things move quickly, everyone is constantly maneuvering and switching alliances and hiding their true motives, and so much is left unsaid, that’s one of the things that makes it great. I really appreciate the work you put in, especially editing in all the clips you reference, it adds another layer of enjoyment to the show for me. You’re absolutely the best of all the UA-cam or podcasts I’ve watched/listened to, and there’s a slew of them. I’m subscribing, and look forward to watching what you create next.
hey Rouxbe. im totally with you. looooove this show. And just like you, I did a full rewatch ahead of the season. On top of that, I rewatched every Greg and Tom scene after episode 1 or 2 because I had been prepping a video that I never got around too. And even after both of those rewatches, I had still forgotten some stuff (like Greg telling Gerri about Tom doing a press conference) until i rewatched scenes agaaaain for this video This show is so dense that it's difficult to remember all the little nuances I don't typically rewatch dramas the way that i love rereading high fantasy books. But I could easily see myself doing and enjoying a rewatch a year from now (speaking of which, I always say that about "The Leftovers" but I never rewatch it. i guess Im just too addicted to books lol) I just finished reading your comment. Those were very kind words. Thank you for that =))
I definitely was thinking that everything they were saying to each other was 100% true prior to this breakdown video due to forgetting some of their prior season conversations. Thanks for this video. I see their argument differently now.
As I've been chatting with people, there are areas where I now realize I worded things poorly or left out context that's important. So take everything I say with a grain of salt, but I appreciate your kind words. thanks! =))
That is what I think too, because there isn't enough time for her to have the baby in two more episodes. I am sad about that. It could also kill her in the process, and that is the nail in Tom's success coffin too. Shiv didn't have to pick Tom, it was obviously some sort of love (as much as she is capable of opening up to, but she was vulnerable as she stated, at a low point). She can have many suitors, who are not just sycophants wanting to catch a ride, which Tom shows is his most important driving force at many moments. Shiv proves she loves Tom, more than Tom proves he loves Shiv, even though he mentions they could go live somewhere else, he also says he loves his money and watches too much in other scenes, and proves that is how he really feels, over and over. Shiv has no real reason to believe Tom loves her for anything other than her money and connections. I really feel for Shiv. She is the most human of all the monsters. And she lives in a misogynistic, man's world, daily. Even most of the commenters on this, can't get past their own misogyny.
@@GloriaSangreal Either that or you're f;ing idiot...there is nothing worse than a person who throws around big words they don't understand....SHE LITERALLY CHEAT ON TOM AND TOLD HIM AT THEIR WEDDING are you mental ....is that how you prove you love somedbody...She had other suitors are you mental..but tom would have had other suitors..good lord...nobody nobody in the show treat anyone as bad as SHIV treats tom but she's a woman and you identify with so she 's the most human and if people disagree they misogynistic ...give a me break
What makes Shiv lose in the battle of partnership is simply that she cheated and was never an emotional support for Tom. She couldn’t care less that he was scared of going to prison, she said to his face that she didn’t love him, and constantly weaponized sex to get what she wanted from him.
The thing about Shiv is that she lives a the bubble of being an elite, and elites rarely go to prison. I find it easier to relate to Tom and his fear of going to prison, but I open to the idea that Shiv's privileged life caused a blind spot on that topic. When Tom brought it up a third or fourth time, she finally snapped at him, and he was sad, so she went over to comfort him. So it seemed as if she was finally starting to acknowledge his fear, and he pushed her away. The case was dropped in the next episode though So it would've been cool for her to acknowledge his fear earlier, but I think she got there eventually ...
@@bridge4 No unfortunately she never got there, she only comforted him for the same reason she weaponized sex, she could tell her snapping upset him so she love bombed so he wouldn’t be mad at her, not because she finally had some empathy for his fears. It doesn’t matter what her experience with prison is in the elite, to be a good partner in marriage you support your partner who is suffering emotionally, that’s just being a decent human being and she never did it.
When Logan said all of his childern weren't serious people, it referenced different traits from each of them. For Shiv, she seems to have a hard time commiting to her choices. She built up her own career and seperate political views. She was ready to throw her father and family under the bus to gain more political influence. Then she shifts entirely because her dad comes to her and offers her the possibility for taking over. She threw away most of her career and stronger connections for this. While in a serious relationship with Tom, she couldn't help but have sex with other people. Even after she was engaged and married this continued. It's as if even in marriage, she couldn't commit to the choice for fear of losing out. This is the same when siding with her brothers going against her father. It's the same now with her attempting to play her own family and feed information to Matsson with the hope for more power. Tom and Shiv will never have a stable or happy relationship unless she's able to stand by her choices and ride them out.
Its interesting to think Sporus might have unintentionally skrewed up Tom's relationship with Shiv. I would love if at the end Tom and Shiv realize this, though it is unlikely
i drew a blank for a second. Sporus was something that Tom called Greg once right? so im guessing you're referring to that early time he informed to Gerri? lol, i had actually rewatched all Tom and Greg scenes a few weeks ago since i was going to do a video on them, and i was reminded about that scene. over the last few weeks, i had forgotten about it again until yesterday when i was researching for this video. sneaky Greg was making moves from the jump lol. thats pretty funny
@@bridge4 He rises by trading favors or information. Informing Gerri about what Tom does, Tom about what Shiv does, giving papers to Kendall and switching to Logan, etc.Its like him with the two women, telling them what they want to hear at the wedding, or the papers and sweater stuff when logan is in the hospital for Shiv and Roman. Greg?
I think the most valuable thing, apart the obvious the magnificent performance of both actors, is that here is probably one of the best examples of how the show portrays the characters and their conflicts. There is no “good side” or heroes, but not monsters either, they all are flaw humas slaves and driven only by selfish interests. Many people can feel sympathy for Tom, because of course he is hurt and undervalue but the important thing is why; he is not telling truths in a truly honest way, he is only doing it because he sees his position in danger and all he has been doing, as a plan, is falling appart. So the only thing that truly matters for him is his position and wealth, and all that comes out from his mouth, despite having a point or even if it’s the truth hides his truly motivations. This is the “beauty” of the show, even when someone portrays himself as a victim the only thing behind the curtain is another terrible person. At the end Tom’s core as a character is what he said to Greg in a dinner, “being rich is awesome”.
great post, though I don't agree entirely about Tom's desires. That scene with Greg in the diner was a good callback! That hasn't been on my mind. However, let me throw this out there. You know that scene where Tom told Shiv that the reason he betrayed her was because he loves money? I flip flop on whether or not there's truth to that. My guess is that most fans believe that's who he is. But my first take was that he was just saying that because that's the type of thing Shiv would want to hear. Now, I'm somewhere in between. But I feel like Tom does truly love Shiv, and its even more important to him than money Am I a sucker for thinking that? lol
@@bridge4 I think he loves the life he gets with her but if you think about it in perspective their relationship is a constant power push/pull and damage impulses, so that toxicity is not really suitable with true love. At least in my opinion. Tom is not thinking in the good of Shiv, he always ask or talk about him first, even when apparently is doing something “good”, and that is key for me.
Great video but I think you’ve gotten a few details wrong. For example Tom did speak to Shiv about getting married on the eve of their wedding. He asked her if she really wanted this and that they can call it off. He asked her directly “have you been fucking around on me Shiv?” She told him no and that of course she wants to marry him. Tom did offer himself to Logan to go to prison. I think Tom mentioning this in the fight was more to the way he thought Shiv didn’t seem to be to concerned or upset at the thought of him going away. When he tried to talk to her about his fears she snapped and told him she didn’t want to keep hearing him talk about it. I think that’s what Tom is referring to.
I think what Shiv meant in your "Logan's Death" section was that by Tom betraying her, the Gojo deal was able to get through which she (and her siblings) believe stressed him out to the point of death. I don't know if that's true, but I feel like that does bring a little bit more validity to what she's saying. Great video!
You might be right. It's hard to read someone's mind, especially during an emotional fight. But to play devils advocate, she had a scene on the steps inside Logans where she told Tom that she blamed herself for Logan's death. And that's unfair to herself, considering how Logan has had multiple health scares over the last year or two In the fight, she seemed to blame Tom for causing distance between her and her father. But I don't think she even believes that. Actually, I do think she believed it as she said it, but it came across to me as one of those "ah i hate something i did (not talking to her father), so im going to pin it on someone else to relieve myself of that guilt" thank you for sharing though. I'll do some more thinking on this one.
That's why I honestly can't pick a side with Tom and Shiv. Yes, Shiv is abusive and won't ever let Tom forget the imbalance in their relationship but Tom had his own agenda. He just didn't expect it to be so hard to maintain.
I love the talent of both Snook and Macfadyen. While watching the show I am on team Disgusting Brothers. I remember while watching the "Tailgate" fight, thinking Tom did just volunteer to be the sacrifice. Thank you for opening my eyes to the rest of Shiv's side. This show is amazing.
He volunteered because he felt it would be him anyway--so why not accept this fact-and make something positive out of it by letting Logan know he would go quietly while helping the out the firm.
hey Tara, I read a similar comment about misogyny yesterday, but I live in a bubble, so I'm not too well versed in the discourse other than by chatting with people here. And although I've seen Shiv haters, I didn't read any explicit misogyny. To be clear though, I realize misogyny is real, and I'm not shocked that it is playing a part in the Tom/Shiv discourse. As a dude, it's likely that I harbor misogynistic views that I'm not even aware yet, but I'm always trying to learn and grow. So do you have any specific example that I can reflect on?
You see "misogyny" any time a woman is criticized or held accountable for her actions. That's your female privilege and it is the most heinous of the privileges which is actually prevalent in Western society.
I really have a problem understating Shiv’s feelings. It’s hard for me to believe she lives him, but there is no ‘transaction’ for her being with Tom. She is just so complex. This really keeps me dwelling on this show and I guess it’s why it’s so compelling for the audience.
I LOVE the way your views are evolving on Tom & Shiv's relationship. You are definitely NOT the only one who has seen Shiv as bad and Tom as good and loving and... PURE, somehow, maybe. (I mean, the guy used PEOPLE as FOOTSTOOLS!) But, they're both complicated people. And they love each other, I believe. Deeply. I think Tom's being so open and effusive about his love makes people see him as a kind, loving person. (Matthew Macfadyen's portrayal of Tom has a lot to do with this. So does Sarah Snook's of Shiv, actually.) He IS servile but, only to people he sees as superiors ( his "betters") like SHIV. He clearly sees her as one of his betters. But, he's trying to keep up. That's why he ate Logan's chicken. Maybe THAT is when he decided they WEREN'T his betters... or SHIV wasn't. I think SOMETHING shifted in him. He realized, then, that he had to be ONE OF THEM, not their servant. And he started to try more. Likewise, the way Shiv lashes out at people she loves because she fears being rejected or having that love disappoint her makes her harder to like. Actually, if you really think about it, Tom's lability actually does more harm to others than Shiv's detachment does. He's always picking on people he considers "beneath" him. Shiv is never really needlessly cruel, except to Tom. Eh, I'm starting to ramble. Also, YES, Tom is righy to believe that Shiv doesn't think about him. THAT is real. But I also think she DOES think about him more than he knows, she just doesn't let herself be TOO vulnerable with him, so she doesn't let him KNOW that she does, a lot of the time.
As such a big fan of Tom, I don't regret being worried for him earlier in the season. I'm still worried for him on a human level. I never actually hated Shiv per se, so I think some of my past takes on her were a little misunderstood, probably do to my poor wording. But with that said, my views of Shiv have definitely changed upon rewatching a number of scenes and remembering what actually happened. And now I empathize for her, and I'm worried for her as well as Tom. I'm continuing to read your comment as I type. What you said about Matthew's protrayal is spot on!!! I have been thinking about that as well. These actors are soooooo good, but Tom's character has been offered so many scenes that highlight the pain in his face. And it's easy to feel for him because of that. But I now realize that I can feel for him, while not painting the person who hurt him (usually Shiv) as the enemy. Because his pain is real, and that's sad, but just because he thinks she was wrong about something doesn't mean she actually was. There are certainly times where she abused him, and he has abused others as you mentioned. That footstool scene was gross. Great point about the type of people whom Tom has abused btw. As much as I do love Tom, he's far from the ideal human. Great characters though. Both of them. =))
I am not familiar with that movie. Was Julia or Heath being sarcastic? (because I don't believe Shiv feels that way about Tom. That's one of the reasons my last video was called "Shiv and Tom are liars!" lol. i think they said some truths, but they also said some lies for no other reason than to try to hurt each other
Umm remember final ep of Season 2 when Shiv says "no Tom looks logical" as the blood sacrifice. Shiv doesn't care about Tom, just like she says in the actual fight
She said that, so it is understandable why Tom thinks she wanted him to be a sacrifice, but that's not the entire picture. Tom denied a threesome and she left the room to speak to Logan. During that off-screen conversation, she threw out Kendal's name (as confirmed in a later scene). In public, she said "Tom looks logical," but then she tried to explain to him that she only said that to look unbiased. When they got back to the boat, she went to Logan's room and begged him to choose anyone other than Tom. So I could see why Tom thinks she doesn't have his back, but she actually did behind closed doors.
@@bridge4 But that is part of the problem. Why does it have to be behind closed doors? Why would your spouse need to bat for you only behind closed doors? Even if this was a play she was making, why couldn't Tom be informed of what her intentions were? He even asked why he couldn't be in the loop if they were supposed to be a team. Just because Tom didn't see it, doesn't invalidate his feelings or the impact of her statements about him to her family and his coworkers.
i laughed out loud when i read this. a lot of views? there's no chance lol. but you made me smile reading that. the fact that you would even hope for something positive for another person such as myself is pretty awesome. never stop being you! =))
U r a genius. I just discovered u and u r the best commentator!, i have aphd in clinical psychology and cant help wondering how u got so smart! Everyone whining about shiv being all bad to tom and as usual i thought I must have gottten it wrong but no!,, please who r u Nd hwhat is ur background etc?.. pure genius
I like Shiv. But the ability to look your husband deep into his eyes and say "I don't love you." Is HITMAN COLD. A totally unprovoked attack. He owes her nothing.
yeah same here. this show is so dense, that its easy to forget all the nuance. I rewatched the entire show after of S4, and rewatched a lot of it again after the first episode or 2. and there was still stuff that i re-remembered while rewatching alot of it a third time for this video lol. but yeah, Shiv had his back in S1 and S2. he just didnt realize she did
I have seen the fight 3 times. Each time, I change teams: Shiv vs Tom. This video reminds us how many times Shiv helped Tom, how many times Tom didn’t understand & didn’t know that Shiv helped, & how much Tom wanted to be in a rich powerful family & doesn’t have the thick skin for it. Great video.
hey cecilia. yeah, i actually cut out a line from this one (or i think i did), where I said "So Shiv did have his back. But Shiv just didn't go home and brag about it. So didn't know." or something like that When I went to bed after watching the episode, I was pretty heavily on Team Tom. When I woke up and looked at the script line by line, I started realizing that some of what he said was wrong (even if it was understandably wrong). And then when making this second video, I rewatched a ton of scenes and realized "whoa, Shiv actually had his back more than I realized. and more importantly, more than Tom realizes" I'm now pulling for them to work things out more than ever =))
@@bridge4 Since it is nearly all out in the open, it is possible for them to reconnect. Tom has to accept he is NOT a Roy, Shiv will always have more options. Shiv has to accept that she needs to actually show that she cares for Tom in order for Tom to feel loved. No more games. No more stupid jokey gifts.
I could be wrong but I didn’t get the feeling that Nate was threatening tomI got the feeling that nate was realizing they were talking about canning Tom
I could see where you are coming from with that. That was the way it seemed at first. When I rewatched on Monday, his delivery of "oh, Tom" hit me differently though. Seemed a little maliciously victorious. But I just rewatched that scene again, and you might be right actually...
I really hope you're right that they patch things up in the morning, but seeing how pissed Tom looks in the next episode preview, yeah, I'm going to guess it went unresolved.
Im sure I watched the preview yesterday, but I pretty much got to working on this video from the time I woke up until midnight. and then all day today. So if i had seen it, i had forgotten it. I did watch it though after this video was done and the file was rendering as a quick double check to see if anything i said stood out as demonstrably dumb based on the trailer, but i dont recall the scene of Tom that you mentioned. i vaguely recall him on the ATN floor with greg or something my bad, been a long day. im rambling. so, now that i finished the video and uploaded it, my mind has been free to begin thinking about things from a fresh perspective again. and i just realized (even though this is common sense), that there are only a few days left in their lives. so even if Shiv finds some sort of closure at the funeral, we aren't ever going to see them healthy. we can only hope to see them begin that journey but that's worth hoping for =))
@@bridge4 Totally agree with you. The scene I was referring to in the preview was Tom saying (paraphrased) to Greg, that "Information is like a fine wine, you hold it for a while and then you smash it on someone head" We may not see them resolve things immediately, but like you said, I hope we see them take the starting steps.
gotcha! yeah, i rewatched the teaser last night bc of your comment and laughed at myself since they handnt been on the ATN floor as I had recalled. They were in a conference room This is the first time I've watched one of them more than once, so I actually started trying to make guesses. But trailers are tricking. For instance, Shiv agreed with Kendal about taking down Mattson iirc. But is that her siding with Ken finally? Or is it just another one of her lies? lol
But it matters that even if shiv tried to protect tom by keeping him out of jail- he didn't know it because she did it behind his back and to his face she acted like she could care less if that happened and refused to offer any emotional support or relieve his fear, she partly fears revealing she cares because that could make her vulnerable and partly enjoys feeling Tom loves her more than she loves him because it makes her feel secure and its really two sides of the same coin. She is emotionally unavailable to Tom, so how is he supposed to know that she cares? When she speaks to him in public as if he's out of her league. That's the thing about Shiv, she is always nasty to Tom in public and when she is sweet to him, it's only in private. He does love her, even though he probably doubts whether she loves him- as she implies mockingly in their dirty talk- but he seems to be hoping that she does and that she'll show her love more with time and maturity (he know she has intimacy issues) or he thinks that if he's made a mistake by marrying her, at least he can ride the career opportunity. Part of Shiv's appeal when they met was his advancement as well as attraction/love. As the video notes, these aren't mutually exclusive. Tom seems to be victim of Shiv's trust issues and bullying tactics (she and her siblings bully each other constantly, as its their only way to engage at this point in their lives, Tom even picks it up from them and does it to Greg in order to fit in, only Connor doesn't seem to bully anyone even though he's a bit of a diva). Most of the issues in Tom and Shiv's relationship stem from Shiv, even if both of them are ultimately casualties. People need validation in a relationship. Occasional overtures of loyalty behind closed doors really aren't enough. Obviously Shiv is complex and there are many moments where she seems to feel the need to pretend that she doesn't care what happens to Tom so she doesn't look weak to her Dad and possibly Matsson, and therefore not lose her upper hand, thus- the argument could be made- the ability to influence situations in Tom's favor and hers. I think ultimately she would try to protect Tom but not too "loudly". I often get the feeling that she loves him but is a bit embarrassed that people in her world see him as beneath her and as like this awkward fish out of water who is too agreeable, and so she acts in public a bit like kids who will pretend their not friends with "the loser" in front of the bully and even join or instigate the bullying themselves to establish their distance and superiority to the target. She also doesn't want to look soft to her family by caring about someone who is...well.. far softer than the Roys. But she also didn't want to marry someone on her level, who would ever be able to undermine her in anyway. I think with time she's gained more respect for Tom, but sometimes her snobbery kicks in. This maybe reading too much into things, but I think at times, particularly in the earlier seasons, Shiv might've preferred it if people thought she married Tom for strategic reasons rather than for love because on some level their marriage embarrasses her. (The fact that her career benefits from a marriage to Tom isn't crazy, he's an insider to the workings of the company and advanced through his own effort before their union, whereas Shiv has way less company experience than her brothers because she was always somewhat excluded by Logan for being a girl).
I think Tom married shiv because he loved her yes but more importantly she was his key to the top and they both knew this. That’s why shiv always advocated for Tom to become the ceo and even in the start of season 2 she had to ask him if it was ok if she ran for ceo (after Logan asked her) and why it was easy for Tom to betray her and pick logan in s3 especially since they’re marriage wasn’t really working out by that point. What I don’t understand is why she married him! Yea sure we can say that she loves him and yes in the start of s3 and end of s2 we do see she loves him or Atleast cares enough to want him to not leave her. But everything we know about her and her brothers tells us that for them love isn’t enough and isn’t the driving force behind their decision making. Maybe she’s scared they someone like Nate who “was the one” would get tired of her shit and leave her and she saw how much Tom loved her/ needed her and so he was the only person she could be sure would not leave her? Or betray her? Damn the roy kids are so messed up 💀 even something simple like love or marriage becomes so complicated with them
I'll have to think about that. I vaguely remembering thinking that Shiv and Nate made a better couple during season 1. But despite her and Tom accumulating more and more baggage, I now see them as more of "soul mates" for lack of better words. Or maybe I see it that way due to the baggage as opposed to despite it. I dunno. But to answer your question, I think Shiv loved and still loves Tom in a way that she never loved Nate. Granted, I'm a hopeless romantic, so who knows lol
I’ve been thinking about why she married him, too. I agree with you that love alone isn’t enough. Lately I’ve been considering “the Plan” they often spoke of, that Tom would become CEO with her help. I think she believed she never had a chance at the CEO position until Logan surprised her at the Summer Palace. Marrying someone who could become CEO with her help, is a way to secure her power. Until Logan dangles the possibility, she had every reason to believe she was never in the running. He wasn’t grooming her in any way, like he was with Kendall and Roman. And the corporate structure is very misogynistic. Even Logan’s offer to her was in secret, and conditional on 3-5 years of additional experience… I’ve often wondered, as Shiv did, “Is this real?” Wife of CEO who adores her is much more powerful than sister of CEO, especially since historically her brothers have discounted, downplayed, and shut her out.
i think nate wasn't "the one" in s4e6 they mention someone named TK who shiv says was "the one". my guess is he was her first love and got her heart broken. sarah snook has mentioned shiv had a wild past so maybe she hooked up with guys and tom was one of the first ones when the TK thing happened but knowing how sweet tom can be, it's possible she eventually caught feelings for him and they started a relationship. on tom's side i think when he met her he probably wanted to be around her bc of her name and money but eventually caught feelings for her as well.
Before Logan had the attack, Tom had said that he wanted to ask Logan something and was looking for the moment but he couldn't and that same night Logan had the attack
Shiv also suggested Tom go to prison when they were on the yacht. She betrayed Tom so many times, and her family too. Incredible acting and writing. Their fight was painful to watch.
My understanding is that when they were on the yacht, the sacrifice was not about prison but about who to fire to appease shareholders (i could be mistaken though) Roman threw out Tom's name, and Shiv agreed at the table. But she explained to Tom on the beech that she went along with it so that she seemed unbiased. When they got back to the boat, Shiv went to Logan and asked him if he had considered what they had spoken about, which was Kendal. So the Logan and Shiv had already had an off-screen conversation. Most likely, that occurred when Tom denied the threesome and Shiv left the room to speak to Logan. So Shiv threw out Kendal's name behind closed doors, then she played along with the Tom idea in public, but she then went to Logan and begged for him to choose anyone other than Tom in private.
the video had gotten really long, and i had addressed that one in the last one. my take on that is that i dont think she actually believes it. it was just something hurtful to say to him if she does believe it though, then screw here. thats gross
i actually scrapped those because they were a little rambly. but i woke up yesterday, the first few comments i read were nice enough to say i shouldnt have dropped it. so i immediately stopped reading comments, and just went to town until midnight (and then 6 more hours today lol) i skimmed through every episode, and was reminded about stuff that i had forgotten. was a fun little exercise =))
Can’t wait to see Tom backstab Shiv again, then Greg backstab Tom and Kendall backstab Greg while Roman backstabbing himself in the funeral. All roads lead to POTUS Connor Roy and his first lady Willa because he’s interested in politics from a very young age.
Totally agree with your point that Shiv was not actually throwing Tom under the bus with Mattson, she was just politicking to gain leverage. I've heard so many people say that she was picking herself over him, but actually I think there is no position for Tom without Shiv in the company. Meaning, she needs to solidify her place with Mattson first before she can even try to lift him up as well. So much bias against Shiv in the succession discourse has been annoying.
To be honest, I actually saw it the other way at first, too. I was like "wtf Shiv." And we don't know if she was looking out for Tom. But *fingers crossed* she was because that would be the most admirable motivation for her demand in that scene. And, like you said, there is no position at the firm for Tom without her most likely
hahah naughty naughty Shiv and Tom. yeah, it was a quick line at the beginning of the party with Tom saying he was tired because "somebody hasnt been letting me get much sleeeeeep latelyyyy" or something like that lol so its pretty ironic that the fight began because Tom wanted to call it a night for being tired
@@bridge4 hah you're right! I remember that exact line now that you mention it. And the entire party treated Tom like "the help" anyways. What an episode!
hey Alannah. i actually didnt realize how needy he was until the last two days of rewatching scenes to put together this video. Tom is often insecure and needy. I still love him, but the dude is a such a softy at times lol
if we look at opening credits shiv is the only one watching her father and mother at backyard. I do really thinks she loves Tom and cares about him. But she only replicates what she grew up watching, she doesn't know how to express love.We know she is the most closest to Logan's personality so she just kicks Tom to see if he come back. On his side i believe he truly loves her too, he got into her for money and power and got in love in the middle of the way and don't know to deal with this lack of honesty they both hold on to.
I never noticed, but that's TRUE, and that has to be significant. She wants to BE LOGAN. It comes up, again and again. It's how Matsson gained her as an ally, comparing her, favorably, to her father, even though Logan did NOT have a sense of humor, in MY recollection...
thank you for this comment!! lol. i realize that I'm not funny, and i rarely try to be. but i was trying there, and im glad someone got a kick out of it. lol this is the first comment i've read today, so for real, thank you for making my day with that =))
Tom did not "Betray" Shiv to her father. He also owes her father allegiance because 1. He owns and made the company 2. He's his boss and father and law adn 3. HE ACTUALLY KNOWS. WHAT THE F HE"S DOING....and then after he did the right thing telling him He gave her the heads up a about pierce which is the news agency SHE ACTUALLY WANTS to run.
The biggest problem in their marriage is Shiv’s lack of capacity for love. It’s not really all her fault since she never really received it in her youth. But at the same time because she’s refused to deal with it, she can’t conceive of anything except power and dominance. She can’t accept the one person that loved her loving her. Yeah Tom is just as bad as the rest of them but I do believe him when he says he loves her. But she pushed him away enough that more things became more important than loving her.
She only asked her Dad "not Tom" after Tom told her on the beach that he was unhappy with her for the open marriage convo, and for throwing him under the bus as a good candidate for going to prison. And for those who say he only wanted her for power, ..need to watch the wedding night convo--he asked to leave with him to "teach scuba" and "But i do love you".
Two people who love each other. One has had to learn to be stoic and emotionally unavailable because her father who she lived to please thought that emotion is weakness. The other has lower self-esteem and thus needs a callous partner as a psychological crutch and to defend him from this ruthless world he's married into. They fill a void in one another. But not in an entirely healthy way. This relationship was doomed at the end. Had the show kept going,that Waystar Stalin would have ground Tom to pieces. He was basically a young Logan on Steroids. Shiv would not have been able to protect him as effectively because she had zero influence on Stalin. Tom would have been trapped and taken it out on her. She would have eventually left him and taken off with the kid. 8:569:48
Shiv says Tom took away the last 6 months she could've had with Logan. Yes, this is completely wrong. (Considering she didn't even wish him a happy birthday as Roman did). To me, this accusation shows that Shiv resents Tom because he was by his side when he died; a privilege that no Roy child had. It's easier for her to blame Tom than herself because Tom called her first when it happened but she didn't answer.
I'm not sure I even knew what a "shiv" was until I bought my first video game console, and it came with "the last of us." but now that I do know what a shiv is, I've always wondered that, too
I wanna say the fourth episode, it’s at the very beginning and she’s laying in bed on the phone with a doctor/nurse or something. They mention a 20 week scan, so she’s like halfway
Do you think Shiv knew for sure Tom was on the chopping block? Why would she confirm or deny something she wasn’t sure of. Granted, she wasn’t empathetic to Tom’s humiliation.
in order to win over Nate, Lukas mentioned a change in management, and Nate through out Tom's name. Shiv was standing there. We don't know if Lukas would have done that, but it's reasonable to assume that he was at least considering it what are you refering in terms of confirming or denying? (my bad. im exhausted, so my brains not working on all cylinders anymore) oh wait, i think i misread. are you referring more generally to the rumors that were going around? and are you saying that Shiv sort of laughing it off makes sense? If so, i agree. Shiv was probably just being social. That doesn't mean that she was okay with Tom getting fired. But I could also understand why he feels humiliated for her laughing at his expense so I don't think she was wrong to laugh, but I could also see why it hurt Tom
oh yeah yeah. i see what you're saying now It would have been interesting to see more of the examples Tom was referring to. For instance, I could see a situation where someone mentioned it, and Shiv just laughed it off, hoping that the conversation would move on to something else instead responding and bringing more time and attention to the topic. In that hypothetical, I could see Tom fuming about her laugh And I could see myself acting the same way, but it's pretty weak for myself or Tom to do that
I am sorry but you CANNOT blame the jail thing on Tom....how Shiv acted was reprehensible and he had every right to throw that in her face. Ridiculous take.
You misunderstood the Tom prenup scenario. Tom was putting on an act about not caring to see it. He was telling shiv he didn't care about seeing the prenup and he will sign it, but then goes onto say that my lawyer insists on looking it over, etc. It was pretty obvious what Tom was doing and I don't think Shiv bought Tom's act for a second, but it didn't seem to bother her what Tom was doing.
IMO The fight on this night started brewing with Tom’s horrible unfunny covert passively aggressive gift to Shiv. (The scorpion paperweight) a gift that will and did 100% breed contempt. It’s as funny as if Shiv gave Tom a gift of the dead snake to wear around his neck, that she referred to during their fight. That said of course there are many elements as pointed out in this vid. Still I feel that gift was a catalyst.
Interesting. In a previous draft of this topic, I was beginning to touch on every single line, but I ended up going a different direction. In that version of the script, I had a different take on the scorpion. When Tom gave it to her, he hadn't really put much thought on it. It was just a silly joke. when she asked if she was the scorpion, he said yeah. but then he said he was the scorpion too. When she first thought about it, she took offense, but she quickly pushed that emotion aside and largely liked the gift since it was just dumb, random, and silly so my take on her scorpion comment early in the fight was that the small piece of her that was offended by it bubbled to the surface since our emotions get funky during fights. when you said passively aggressive, i thought you were going to go a different direction. because i do think Tom started the fight with something passive aggressive So Tom went outside. She followed him, and he tried to get her to just drop it and go inside since he was tired. She had a very valid concern about the legal issues with Mattson, so she didn't go inside. He responded with something along the lines of "you'll be fine." But it wasnt a genuine "i care about you. its going to be okay. you'll be fine" type comment like he has done in the past. It was a passive aggressive "you'll be fine, so STFU" type comment. And she knew it. That's when things went south So its intersting. On the one hand, Tom tried to stop the fight from happening, but on the other, he threw the first shot. Not the hardest shot. But the first one for sure Going back to your point though. I'll have to think about that. It IS a pretty random gift, so maybe I am underestimating the douchiness of such a gift, for lack of better words
@@bridge4 if your a women this gift is offensive (imo) when a man offers a gift to their women (and it was kind of a special morning) they had just reunited, it was going well, prob to both their surprise, they were throwing this huge event together in their home, then that morning he feigns special affection yet gives her that.Not funny. Shivs reactions are held close, so could be interpreted your way or as I did. Don’t give ur women a gag joke gift that makes a neg statement about her, especially in a delicate moment in one’s relationship, unless followed up with diamonds or something nice she will really like. Bad idea. If he would have given her something she actually liked, that showed his sincere affection, I think the outcome (other than it’s a scripted/show) could have, would have been different. I get many overlooked this “gift”, see it as a throw away or a joke. If shiv would have brought Tom a nicely wrapped box that morning as a surprise, he opened with anticipation only to find a dead snake …. I think similar feelings of disappointment would develop. And the audience would have viewed it as what a bitch. Plus she is pregnant , so far has not felt safe to entrust this info with anyone not even Tom. On top of everything else She is dealing with, this is a deep emotional tumultuous situation that reaches to her very core that she is isolated with, left to ponder - deal with ALL on her own. The one person she might trusted gives her that.
Thats a good point about the timing of the gift that i hadn't considered! But I still wonder if Tom did it maliciously or if it was just a result of him being a big dum dum. But you might be right. There might have been more thought behind it then I am acknowledging. To play devils advocate though, Shiv has responded well to Tom recently when he's pushed back on her, so he might have intentionally thought of it as a jab, but one that she would like... ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@bridge4 I’m not saying it was malicious, but don’t excuse it as a complete dumb dumb move either. btw I edited my reply a few times adding several other points. I’m writing fast so excuse bad punctuation and grammatical errors. Yet u can get my drift. Pushing back is one thing, offering a gift then it turning out to be a neg statement of the person it offered to, is another. That said there is a place and time for gag gifts.
Dude, in trying to be "balanced," you are totally overdoing the Shiv case. Come on - carefully analyze Sarah Snook's facial expressions - she says so much about Shiv's dismissive and utilitarian/transactional approach to love (mirroring Logan) with her expressions. Ty for the video anyway.
I appreciate your feedback and kind words. But I didn't make any attempt to be balanced. I was just trying to call it as I see it (and im sure i made mistakes). But I promise you, I didn't have any agenda here to defend Shiv. I'm team Tom! =))
Shiv has had some great moments with her brothers, most notably, Ken during Ken's breakdowns (in the office in Season 2, and outside the wedding reception in Season 3)
I think its ridiculous to think LOVE should only be based on attraction and how you feel about each other. Ther are PRACTICAL reasons to find suitable mates and you can also be sexually attracted to them at the same time. Tom is an ambitious man. Shiv's position certainly played a role. But, they are also very much alike. And there is REAL HEAT between them. They have a brutality to them, a dark humor, the ability to be one and separate at the same time. But, Shiv took it too far. Tom agreed to a lot of crap out of devotion and respect for her as a powerful being. He didnt realize that Shiv wanted some pushback. She wants someone to tell her NO. She wants a man that can MAKE HER RESPECT HIM. And the more Tom pulls away, the more she began to love him. All she knows how to do, is fight with the boys. That is why they say, that it takes an EXTREMELY CONFIDENT MAN to be with a woman that does not need him. Shiv, is one of those people that cannot tell the difference between sarcasm and nastiness. Her idea of play fighting was just bullying. Because of how she was raised. Neglectful father and an absentee mother. And I think Tom is always afraid of his position being shaky. And it caused him to be less confident in many situations. That insecurity, against her narcissism is how the feed off each other. But, its not actual love. They both became Narcissistic Supply. When Tom needed her the most, she had no idea how to remedy any of those emotions. When Tom is in need of protection - she piles on. But, that is marriage. It is always hard to break into a solid family, with long dark histories. And you cannot really love a person, until you know what they need emotionally. Never assume you know. Finding out the hard way, always leads to divorce.
13:53 Sorry, YOU are totally wrong here. Though yes, the kids went radio silent (for good reason), it WAS Tom who caused the whole thing in the first place by betraying not only Shiv, but the siblings in general. He did *thee most* horrible betrayal of all. I am surprised Shiv never passed this information on to her brothers and also surprised the writers didn't make use of this monumental betrayal throughout the entire Season 4. Tom caused the biggest betrayal and stumbling block to their sound future and chance to be in agreement as a team, finally. The kids were in a position to TAKE OVER once and for all. Were I they, Mom would never be talked to either- EVER AGAIN~!!
@@jalenr.6542 seeing things from the perspective of a misogynist is honestly hilarious. how you gonna sit here and tell me shiv is worse than their father. delusion is crazyyyy
You are incredibly naive. Tom never wanted to teach scuba. This was a test: deny (me and scuba) or accept (me and wealth.) through false dichotomy, Tom has inculcated himself as part of Shiv’s wealth and standing. Shiv has always resented her station, and she resent Tom for wanting in. And for valuing it more than her. Shiv therefore emasculates, belittles, and cucks Tom at every opportunity. What does Tom get out of this? Well, 2 things. 1. Immense wealth and potentially power. 2. “You’re a masochist and can’t even take it.” Sure, the pain will eventually hurt too much, but what an exquisite ride it will be. Tom sucks. Tom is a grasping interloper. Karl and Shiv know what’s up.
@@miseendriste6337 haha. No. I just have clocked Tom as a “masochist who can’t even take it” since episode one. I also think he has a lot of cognitive dissonance about his sexual orientation. Even still. #teamshiv
Sorry, but I continue to believe that she's a horrible person. Tom is just naive and too pure and didn't know how to play "the game", however, infidelity came from Shiv. I agree with him, she shouldn't be a mother, she only thinks about her. Tom was a commodity.
Tom is very lovable at times, so I often don't think about his low points. But when you call him pure, some past scenes come to mind. Footstooling an employee. Harassing people in the compliment booth. And venting his anger onto to Greg several times. So I'm not sure he's pure per se lol. Still a big fan though. And I think he's a good guy for the most part.
@@bridge4 see that's the thing.....he's only lovable to people that the he thinks are above him like Logan,shiv and the bros he plays nice with them coz that's he's defense mechanism to survive or rise up and it has worked for him until now
I will have to disagreed with most of your analysis about Shiv. It’s not that complicated, Shiv doesnt respect Tom and she never did. Deep down Tom always knew it but he was hoping things will change. Why? Love maybe. Their last fight is Tom awakening and accepting the reality. Shiv is not evil but she is a terrible person to have child with. Having the same jugement coming from her mom and Tom is a confirmation.
Fantastic review. Your process is very thorough. This episode could be used in counseling , to review how people unfairly ‘fight ‘ . Not physically of course, but truthfully with an objection ( like a marriage) . Sometimes when a person is tired they should just go to sleep and pick up with the conversation later 😊
exactly!! dont get me wrong, i've been on both ends of fights with stupid, pointless insults. so i get it. But above all else, this fight never should have happen. To Tom's credit, he knew that and tried to get her to just give him space. But Shiv had a real issue on her mind (legal issues with Mattson), so it's understandable why she brought it up. And although Tom didn't even want to talk, he threw out the first jab. It was as subtle one, but the "you're going to be okay" wasn't a comforting type comment. The tone and delivery was a minor jab of sorts because it hinted at more. That triggered her, and she took it to the next level. And it kept escalating on both sides from there. But like you said, although the fight was captivating and real, the main takeaway is that the fight was full of pointless, insults
They just aren’t right for each other unfortunately. Shiv’s not capable of taking Tom seriously and respect him to communicate with him properly. They created so many misunderstandings and misalignment with each other. Tom has the power and wealth now but he’s miserable and insecure all the time. His wife refused to stand firm and give him the confident backing he needs…
You might be right, but the elephant in the room is that Shiv is still grieving her father. The funeral episode (two from now?) might give her some closure that she needs to begin rebuilding with Tom in a healthy way. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't work out though. They are both very broken right now, and it's going to take a lot of time and work for them to heal.
I think there was a small, but significant part, that was missed here, the part where Tom says, "You've hurt me more than you could possibly imagine." Which immediately took me back to the part in season 3 where they're having the "dirty talk" session and she basically teases him for wanting her despite knowing that she doesn't love him.
And I think that is at the core of what the problem is with their relationship. Not that Shiv is selfish and Tom is not, but rather there's a severe power imbalance in their relationship and Shiv abuses it a lot, without fear of the consequences it has.
Great point. The joke which sets him off at dinner with Roman & Tabitha is about him looking like a hick. She calls him a hick in this fight, too, another way of saying he’s not good enough for her, that she’s a queen and he’s a peasant.
That was the most impactful line of the fight. I don't know why I didn't include it here tbh
In terms of the whole "you dont deserve me" and "i dont love you" stuff, I dont believe her now, and i dont think she meant it in the past either. she was just trying to do dirty talk. the next day, I was surprised that Tom was so hurt by it. not saying he's wrong to feel that way. but if i had been in his shoes, i would've found it funny
you're right that she has abused the power balance at times, most notably by forcing him to pursue her agenda with Pierce at his own expense. that was low
another issue that i wish i had mentioned is about their bubbles. Shiv's entire life has been one of the elites. We all know that elites rarely ever spend time behind bars.
He opened up to her about his concerns a few times, but she never truly listened and realized that his concerns about prison were real. That might have just been a blind spot that her life of being elite wouldn't allow her to see
@@rouxbe3595
Tom in return has used ‘jokes’ badly too. The scorpion is one. That animal is ugly, vicious, and deadly. Doubt Shiv liked it & it spewed into her behavior throughout the evening.
Bad joke, Tom, bad joke.
@@ceciliaSF-TX I thought the scorpion was a reference to the fable of the scorpion & the frog. The scorpion needs a ride on the frog’s back to cross a river, and assures the frog there’ll be no sting on the ride because if the frog gets killed, they’ll both drown. Midway across, the scorpion stings, and when the frog asks why, the scorpion says, “It’s my nature, I couldn’t do otherwise.” Tom says, “You’re the scorpion, you kill me, I kill you.” It’s like he’s warning her, but at the same time, acknowledging it’s her nature, and she can’t help herself even if it’s self-destructive.
@@bridge4 Agree with you that she doesn’t mean it, but she knows saying it really stings Tom.
I’ve been trying to understand why he doesn’t laugh it off or take as a point of pride. He doesn’t seem particularly insecure about his relatively humble origins in any other context.
In “Austerlitz” Logan says to Shiv in front of Tom, “You’re marrying a man fathoms beneath you because you don’t want to risk being betrayed. You’re a coward.”
I wonder if Shiv believes Logan. She keeps saying that Tom is beneath her, like some twisted incantation that’s supposed to protect her from betrayal.
I think Shiv loves Tom more than she is willing to admit. It's hard for her to trust anyone but herself. She is willing to ask Logan to protect Tom, but she isn't willing to tell Tom that because it would show too much emotional vulnerability. She wants an open relationship, but she still shows some jealousy toward women Tom is interested in. She could have let Tom go to jail, she could've lied about the affairs, and most importantly, she could have gotten an abortion. These moments don't benefit Shiv in any way and Shiv is incredibly selfish.
Tom tries to communicate with Shiv but she always shuts it down; just like her mother. I believe Tom does love Shiv more than money and power. Tom would have been happy if he just had a normal marriage and Shiv never joined the family business. The more Shiv pushes him away the more he needed to cling to Logan; because if he can't be loved at least he could be rich.
To love and be loved you need to have a good self-esteem. This isn't the case for Shiv who grew up in a misogynistic and toxic family , and without love from her parents. She was taughthat having feelings is an unforgivable weakness. So she suppressed them untill she scheduls them.
Note that Shiv and Tom kept their wedding rings all the season 4. Except Tom who doesn't have it at the start of e1 but has it at the end of it.
End of SCRIPT BOOK for Shiv and Tom in the car :
An accomodation, an equilibrium, that could last with a certain stabilty, proxy wars and detentes for many years to come...nothing needy from either side.
A queen and a prince.
Two bombs transported with great care.
Podcast HBO SUCCESSION "With open eyes" Part II with Mark Mylod (who directed 16 episodes). UA-cam
That argument is one of the greatest scenes in TV history
im such a dork. after reading your comment, i just mumbled out an "i knowwwww" lol. its so true. what a scene!
thank you! everyone else can only see Shiv as completely selfish and conniving, I love the complexity of these characters
I just finished going through the comments on the last video, and a few people mentioned that. I live in a bubble, so I wasn't aware of that view of Shiv and Tom until those message.
I can understand where it comes from though. Tom has grown on my soooo much over the last season or 2. And our memories are flawed. So it's easy to fall into the trap of picking a side. And, if I did that, it would probably be Tom. But like you said, they are both complex characters =))
She is not only completely selfish BUT OBLIVIOUS...and that's the part that's scary that she doesn't even realize how much she hurts him which is why..........HORRIBLE MOTHER
Well... Shiv is a completely selfish and conniving person. But, its not entirely her fault. Its how she was raised. And if she is to be a good mother, she had better get some therapy. Because her child, will not understand it. Abuse repeats itself. She is complex. But being complex doesn't give you the right to throw knives at your husbands back and cheat on everyone in the name of personal interest. Even Roman, tells her she could use some therapy and she's more messed up than he is. He wasn't joking.
Honestly after watching this, I have to agree with you. Although we see Shiv as an often selfish and free spirited behavior, she did love Tom in a way.
I'm glad I got to see this smashing series❤
Yes! She hate for Shiv is usually undeserved. She is no worse than her sibs...or Tom.
their relationship can be summed up:
tom: just let me love you!
shiv: oh would you look at the time, it's self destruct o'clock
lol
😂😂
I truly hope they figure things out, they are the most compelling couple in TV at the moment, basically because their fighting feels real. It's not a romcom where they essentially fight over nothing, they have real, existing issues.
i dont know where i stood at the begining of the season. in a way, i wanted Tom to move on. but i also suspected that he didnt want to move on, so i was hoping they'd find a way to be happy.
and now, that's firmly where i stand. im with you in hoping that they figure things out asap!! =))
I’m banking on a fight to the death
Shiv is afraid of appearing weak in any capacity to any person. If any person has seen that, Shiv feels it necessary to assert control over that person. This is what we are seeing with Tom. That and Shiv's convoluted view of emotional vulnerability and weakness.
do you think this fight is the beginning of the end for them? or was it the start of a new beginning?
@@bridge4 That's really hard to answer. I'd like to think the start of a new beginning but they both have to want to fix their relationship and want to be honest with each other. Tom's anger is currently overpowering that as he seems to feel the need to cut Shiv as deep as Shiv cut him.
Shiv telling the truth about her pregnancy will be the make or break point. I think it's something Tom wants bad enough, he would do anything. I feel like Shiv has always wanted a normal functioning family, and she has that option with Tom but felt threatened by it when she first experienced it. People feel comfortable in what they know, even if it means recreating trauma from their past. For some people, it is less scary than the unknown. The pregnancy comes with a hard "due date" for a decision between the two worlds.
Regardless it's the writers decision, and if it doesn't work out for them, I'll be one sad duck.
I have to agree. Shiv, being the only woman, young girl in her household had to fight her brothers to be heard. Her father just gave her things as he really did not know what else to do with her. Being the only girl, she just about got away with things that her brothers could not. Remember the scene when she and Roman got into a brawl and Tom walked in and walked right back out again. It appeared that Shiv was physically holding her own. The boys, more or less, had their expected life in the company assigned for them. For Shiv, the assumption is GET MARRIED.
Shiv wanted other experiences until Tom. I truly believe that Shiv did what she could to aid Tom's career goals, but she wanted his gains to be due to her largesse. It got to be obvious to Tom that Shiv was not going to satisfy her own goals in the family business, so he struck out on his own. It was pretty obvious that Shiv was not going to be CEO and her brothers would fight her at every turn. He hitched his plight to Logan in defiance of Shiv who does not like to be defied. In truth, Shiv did not know her husband very well --- he was smarter than all of the siblings (combined). Logan did not keep him around for his good looks. Loyalty counts and I think that Logan appreciated it and was convinced that Tom loved Shiv. Tom learned the job of a CEO, while the siblings fought their father.
Was Shiv the Scorpion? I don't think so. Tom knew that she was going to be between a rock and a hard place. I think Tom just had her deliver a message to her brothers ---- she is a Wambsgam and era of Roy is over. Logan died. I think that it was his way of building a new family dynasty.
I've seen that "No, honey, you can't" clip used a lot in dissections of this fight, but what always seems to get left out is that almost immediately after that line Shiv starts listing the advantages of offering to go to prison. I don't think it's as rock solid of a "discouragement" as all that when placed in context.
Yeah, argument could be made that she needed to say that, so it wouldn't be obvious she wanted him in prison (kind of a smokescreen). She is definetly manipulative, so it's entirely possible that with saying "No, honey, you can't" she was just hiding her intensions, but maybe this theory is too far-fetched. After all, she needed her emontional tampoo.
When is Tom responsible for his own decisions though? She maneuvered so he wouldn’t be the one to go down for it. And then when Kendall decides he’s not going to do it, Tom volunteers. Now he blaming her for not telling him no enough? He is responsible for that choice.
@Adrian Olkowski I don't know if she was even necessarily deliberately manipulating him, but I feel like Tom was probably hoping for a "No, please, don't go to prison, I need you" (not exactly Shiv's kind of line) and instead got "no, of course not.... unless...."
@Raine I for sure, and I think it's to a certain degree Tom's fault for not communicating his needs more often. Saying "hey honey how would you feel about me being in prison for a bit?" as a test of affection is.... not a great strategy for good communication lol
At the same time, it's hard watching the man extend emotional tendrils out to his wife over and over again only for her to repeatedly brush them off. The right call for Tom would have been to say something the first time he felt like she didn't care about his feelings-- but then he'd be just like Nate, who "broke" when she played with him
i hear ya. i didnt give the full context in this video, because i had addressed that in more detail in the last one, so i didnt want people to hear too much of the same stuff a second time
but you're right, she very quickly went from a "no" to a "thats genius"
7:45 I think it's unfair to blame Tom for marrying Shiv despite having suspicions about her faithfulness, when he is a clear victim in this case. I don't know what would I do if I were in his place, just before the ceremony. I think disbelief is a natural reaction and we shouldn't dilute Shiv's blame.
I think Shiv's biggest mistake is that she hasn't made him feel loved. The loving part of Tom was unsatisfied, so when he had slightest suspicions that she wasn't serving her intrests in company (when he asked where his place is after coup in S3E9, she just said "somwhere high"), the ambitious-carrer half was also unsatifies and he saw no use in not betraying her. It was dick move to say the least, but it was understandable - that's why I think more people sympathise with Tom more than with Shiv
blaming Tom is not really what i meant with those lines, but im more of a numbers guy than a words guy. and even i realized that the way i said that sounded off. so i understand your response and agree with you.
Greg gave Tom a heads up, but it is completely understandable why Tom temporarily protected himself through denial. I would have probably done the same thing as him.
With that said, it was a mistake because he did have the information ahead of time. a very human mistake to make though
Tom, from the start, never was 'smart' at his job no matter which one it was. He's always been an empty suit - and a bullying empty suit at that. He does not know how to handle adversity, which was clear when he first discarded company documents and literally *used* Greg to do it. He went around counting 'snack waste' and couldn't even fire people he thought he needed to - he used Gregg for that, too. All he cared about was pleasing Logan. Period. He couldn't faithfully handle election night as head of ATN. He will always be a puppet child needing to be stroked and taking credit where credit is not due as when he wanted Mencken to believe he called the election. Though each family member is screwed up, only they put up with Logan and his antics for 30 odd years and pay for it mightily now just trying to get through life. Only they have had CEO dangled and retrieved from them over and again. Only a family member deserves that CEO spot.
One more point I would make....On the night before their wedding Tom asked Shiv is this was real and he asked her if she was screwing around on him...he said they didn't have to go through with the wedding. She lied to him saying she was not screwing around on him and that it was real (maybe that part was true). He went through with the wedding on that reassurance. It was on their wedding night that she brought up an open marriage and confirmed that she had indeed cheated with Nate. I think Tom changed tremendously through the series...He might be an ambitious ahole but he did love her and expected a normal marriage. These two need couples therapy to communicate! I think she loved him to the best of her ability, but she is far more broken than he is. Could it ever work? Who knows.
i was interesting to see how you were going to end that. i didnt expect you to be pulling for them. but im totally with you. they have a lot of work to do. is it possible? i dont know. but i hope so! =))
@@bridge4 Me too!
Thanks for doing this. I thought I was going crazy when everyone conveniently forgot all the context from prior seasons. Great analysis
thanks =)) cool name btw!
Thank you for fairly assessing the Shiv/Tom argument (even from your last recap video). It’s much appreciated!!!
thanks =))
The toxic power dynamic here is so well written and performed . I think they do love each other but mostly, they believe they need each other to succeed, they truly use one another for their own convince, to the point where hurting each other really badly is no longer a limit to their decisions. A marriage with that foundation will only last for as long as they both get something, which could be a few months or forever. Now, could they ever be happy together? Im not sure because now that Tom is CEO, I think he’ll only be submissive to Mattson… with Shiv, he’s ready to show his truest colors, and considering he’s not exactly like Logan, could it be a good thing for their now growing family? On the other hand, Shiv is nothing like her mother so I don’t think she’ll become her…
Note that Shiv and Tom kept their wedding rings all the season 4. Except Tom who doesn't have it at the start of e1 but has it at the end of it.
End of SCRIPT BOOK for Shiv and Tom :
An accomodation, an equilibrium, that could last with a certain stabilty, proxy wars and detentes for many years to come...nothing needy from either side.
A queen and a prince.
Two bombs transported with great care.
Podcast HBO SUCCESSION "With open eyes" Part II with Mark Mylod (who directed 16 episodes). UA-cam
Shiv actually publicly supported idea of sacrificing Tom during discussion at the yacht, and she dismissed his every concern when prison was a real possibility, so it's not like she was completely innocent in this regard.
After Tom denied the threesome, Shiv left the room to speak to Logan. We didn't find out what happened in that scene until the end of the episode. But it is implied that she threw out Kendal's name as the sacrifice.
At the table, Shiv pretended to go along with Tom, but she tried to explain to Tom on the beach that she did that as a way of looking unbiased.
When they got back to the boat, she spoke to Logan again, and this time we saw it. She asked him if he had considered Kendal as they had spoke about. She also begged him to choose anyone other that Tom.
So, I could totally see why Tom would be hurt by that. I would have been hurt as well. But he doesn't realize that she went to bat for him both before the table scene and after.
In terms of prison, Shiv lives a bubble of elites. So she didn't consider prison a real possibility. He address his concerns three (or maybe even four times), and she totally blew him off. I'm with ya. The last time, she even snapped at him. It wasn't until then that she acknowledged his pain, so that stinks. But she did finally acknowledge it and went over to comfort him, but he pushed her away. Not long after, he was cleared.
So I hear ya. And I understand why Tom felt betrayed by her. But I don't think Shiv's indifference was as malicious as Tom believes it was. It was just a function of her privileged place in society, and she eventually realized that Tom did not feel as safe as she thought he was.
@@bridge4 good points 👍 This is why this scene is so brilliant, they both right and wrong at the same time.
@@bridge4 I love you so much for actually having critical thinking skills. So many breaking bad transport fans here hating on Shiv on the basis of nothing but pure bigotry and misogyny like they hated Skyler
I'm not sure if you forgot the part on the yacht when Shiv essentially gave any power that she may have had to Logan, when she approached him and asked for it to be anyone but Tom. I tend to think that this didn't influence Logan, but he certainly made Shiv think that he did her that favor. However throughout the 3rd season Tom regularly brought up the scenario of going to jail/prison and Shiv didn't seem too concerned by ti.
Thank you for a fair non misogynistic take on Shiv. Facts are always validated
I worded stuff poorly, and I'm sure I'm misremembering and misinterpreting stuff. But I do try to be unbiased, so thank you for the kind words =)) side note. I hate that Shiv and love Tom. lol just messing with ya :-P
@bridge4 I think you did great! I enjoy shiv, but tom is a thumb. Lol
what the fuck? You can hate Shiv without it being misogynistic....
Great breakdown. Not sure if I missed it but Tom telling her she shouldn’t be a mom considering what we know, was brutal.
Oops. In the last seconds. Found it.
yo waddup Doc!
yeah, i brushed past that one a little faster in this video since I had played the Caroline clip in the last one, and didnt want this to be too repetitive
but together, her being pregnant AND Caroline's conversation made Tom's attack line hit hard!
Shiv is not bad. Neither are. They are broken people in a defensive mode like an abused animal when rescued.
I used to think that Tom was awesome, and Shiv was annoying. Now, I love Tom, and I'm starting to love Shiv again, too. This show is such a rollercoaster! Great analogy btw. That was them 100%
She *is* bad. And so is Tom. We can love these characters without going all uWu poor baby!
@@Chibbykins hahaha, I agree now! The show went pretty dark.
Amazingly thorough and nuanced analysis! I’m obsessed with this show, and have watched every episode twice, and then did a binge rewatch of the first 3 seasons before season 4 started, but you pulled out so many subtle points from previous scenes that I had forgotten, or missed. This show is rich & dense, things move quickly, everyone is constantly maneuvering and switching alliances and hiding their true motives, and so much is left unsaid, that’s one of the things that makes it great. I really appreciate the work you put in, especially editing in all the clips you reference, it adds another layer of enjoyment to the show for me. You’re absolutely the best of all the UA-cam or podcasts I’ve watched/listened to, and there’s a slew of them. I’m subscribing, and look forward to watching what you create next.
hey Rouxbe. im totally with you. looooove this show. And just like you, I did a full rewatch ahead of the season. On top of that, I rewatched every Greg and Tom scene after episode 1 or 2 because I had been prepping a video that I never got around too. And even after both of those rewatches, I had still forgotten some stuff (like Greg telling Gerri about Tom doing a press conference) until i rewatched scenes agaaaain for this video
This show is so dense that it's difficult to remember all the little nuances
I don't typically rewatch dramas the way that i love rereading high fantasy books. But I could easily see myself doing and enjoying a rewatch a year from now (speaking of which, I always say that about "The Leftovers" but I never rewatch it. i guess Im just too addicted to books lol)
I just finished reading your comment. Those were very kind words. Thank you for that =))
I definitely was thinking that everything they were saying to each other was 100% true prior to this breakdown video due to forgetting some of their prior season conversations. Thanks for this video. I see their argument differently now.
As I've been chatting with people, there are areas where I now realize I worded things poorly or left out context that's important. So take everything I say with a grain of salt, but I appreciate your kind words. thanks! =))
Yeah, I think Shiv is gonna lose the baby. She has too much stress and grief now.
omg!! i hadnt even considered that as an option. that would be brutal!
She should loose the baby ..it'd be better off
That is what I think too, because there isn't enough time for her to have the baby in two more episodes. I am sad about that. It could also kill her in the process, and that is the nail in Tom's success coffin too. Shiv didn't have to pick Tom, it was obviously some sort of love (as much as she is capable of opening up to, but she was vulnerable as she stated, at a low point). She can have many suitors, who are not just sycophants wanting to catch a ride, which Tom shows is his most important driving force at many moments. Shiv proves she loves Tom, more than Tom proves he loves Shiv, even though he mentions they could go live somewhere else, he also says he loves his money and watches too much in other scenes, and proves that is how he really feels, over and over. Shiv has no real reason to believe Tom loves her for anything other than her money and connections. I really feel for Shiv. She is the most human of all the monsters. And she lives in a misogynistic, man's world, daily. Even most of the commenters on this, can't get past their own misogyny.
@@GloriaSangreal Either that or you're f;ing idiot...there is nothing worse than a person who throws around big words they don't understand....SHE LITERALLY CHEAT ON TOM AND TOLD HIM AT THEIR WEDDING are you mental ....is that how you prove you love somedbody...She had other suitors are you mental..but tom would have had other suitors..good lord...nobody nobody in the show treat anyone as bad as SHIV treats tom but she's a woman and you identify with so she 's the most human and if people disagree they misogynistic ...give a me break
What makes Shiv lose in the battle of partnership is simply that she cheated and was never an emotional support for Tom. She couldn’t care less that he was scared of going to prison, she said to his face that she didn’t love him, and constantly weaponized sex to get what she wanted from him.
The thing about Shiv is that she lives a the bubble of being an elite, and elites rarely go to prison. I find it easier to relate to Tom and his fear of going to prison, but I open to the idea that Shiv's privileged life caused a blind spot on that topic.
When Tom brought it up a third or fourth time, she finally snapped at him, and he was sad, so she went over to comfort him. So it seemed as if she was finally starting to acknowledge his fear, and he pushed her away. The case was dropped in the next episode though
So it would've been cool for her to acknowledge his fear earlier, but I think she got there eventually ...
@@bridge4 No unfortunately she never got there, she only comforted him for the same reason she weaponized sex, she could tell her snapping upset him so she love bombed so he wouldn’t be mad at her, not because she finally had some empathy for his fears. It doesn’t matter what her experience with prison is in the elite, to be a good partner in marriage you support your partner who is suffering emotionally, that’s just being a decent human being and she never did it.
@@uhuhuh1966 even i would snap if my spouse keeps bringing it up when I've tried my best to comfort you and see how i can solve the situation.
When Logan said all of his childern weren't serious people, it referenced different traits from each of them. For Shiv, she seems to have a hard time commiting to her choices. She built up her own career and seperate political views. She was ready to throw her father and family under the bus to gain more political influence. Then she shifts entirely because her dad comes to her and offers her the possibility for taking over. She threw away most of her career and stronger connections for this. While in a serious relationship with Tom, she couldn't help but have sex with other people. Even after she was engaged and married this continued. It's as if even in marriage, she couldn't commit to the choice for fear of losing out. This is the same when siding with her brothers going against her father. It's the same now with her attempting to play her own family and feed information to Matsson with the hope for more power. Tom and Shiv will never have a stable or happy relationship unless she's able to stand by her choices and ride them out.
Its interesting to think Sporus might have unintentionally skrewed up Tom's relationship with Shiv. I would love if at the end Tom and Shiv realize this, though it is unlikely
i drew a blank for a second. Sporus was something that Tom called Greg once right? so im guessing you're referring to that early time he informed to Gerri? lol, i had actually rewatched all Tom and Greg scenes a few weeks ago since i was going to do a video on them, and i was reminded about that scene. over the last few weeks, i had forgotten about it again until yesterday when i was researching for this video.
sneaky Greg was making moves from the jump lol. thats pretty funny
@@bridge4 He rises by trading favors or information. Informing Gerri about what Tom does, Tom about what Shiv does, giving papers to Kendall and switching to Logan, etc.Its like him with the two women, telling them what they want to hear at the wedding, or the papers and sweater stuff when logan is in the hospital for Shiv and Roman.
Greg?
@@bridge4 Can’t wait for the ending that Greg finally get his dick chopped off and then marry to Tom.
very true!
I think the most valuable thing, apart the obvious the magnificent performance of both actors, is that here is probably one of the best examples of how the show portrays the characters and their conflicts. There is no “good side” or heroes, but not monsters either, they all are flaw humas slaves and driven only by selfish interests. Many people can feel sympathy for Tom, because of course he is hurt and undervalue but the important thing is why; he is not telling truths in a truly honest way, he is only doing it because he sees his position in danger and all he has been doing, as a plan, is falling appart. So the only thing that truly matters for him is his position and wealth, and all that comes out from his mouth, despite having a point or even if it’s the truth hides his truly motivations.
This is the “beauty” of the show, even when someone portrays himself as a victim the only thing behind the curtain is another terrible person.
At the end Tom’s core as a character is what he said to Greg in a dinner, “being rich is awesome”.
great post, though I don't agree entirely about Tom's desires. That scene with Greg in the diner was a good callback! That hasn't been on my mind. However, let me throw this out there.
You know that scene where Tom told Shiv that the reason he betrayed her was because he loves money? I flip flop on whether or not there's truth to that. My guess is that most fans believe that's who he is. But my first take was that he was just saying that because that's the type of thing Shiv would want to hear. Now, I'm somewhere in between. But I feel like Tom does truly love Shiv, and its even more important to him than money
Am I a sucker for thinking that? lol
@@bridge4 I think he loves the life he gets with her but if you think about it in perspective their relationship is a constant power push/pull and damage impulses, so that toxicity is not really suitable with true love. At least in my opinion. Tom is not thinking in the good of Shiv, he always ask or talk about him first, even when apparently is doing something “good”, and that is key for me.
Great video but I think you’ve gotten a few details wrong. For example Tom did speak to Shiv about getting married on the eve of their wedding. He asked her if she really wanted this and that they can call it off. He asked her directly “have you been fucking around on me Shiv?” She told him no and that of course she wants to marry him.
Tom did offer himself to Logan to go to prison. I think Tom mentioning this in the fight was more to the way he thought Shiv didn’t seem to be to concerned or upset at the thought of him going away. When he tried to talk to her about his fears she snapped and told him she didn’t want to keep hearing him talk about it. I think that’s what Tom is referring to.
This is REALLY good. Thank you!
i dont know about that. but thanks, Bethany! =))
I think what Shiv meant in your "Logan's Death" section was that by Tom betraying her, the Gojo deal was able to get through which she (and her siblings) believe stressed him out to the point of death. I don't know if that's true, but I feel like that does bring a little bit more validity to what she's saying. Great video!
You might be right. It's hard to read someone's mind, especially during an emotional fight. But to play devils advocate, she had a scene on the steps inside Logans where she told Tom that she blamed herself for Logan's death. And that's unfair to herself, considering how Logan has had multiple health scares over the last year or two
In the fight, she seemed to blame Tom for causing distance between her and her father. But I don't think she even believes that. Actually, I do think she believed it as she said it, but it came across to me as one of those "ah i hate something i did (not talking to her father), so im going to pin it on someone else to relieve myself of that guilt"
thank you for sharing though. I'll do some more thinking on this one.
I think Tom’s aims were 80% to marry into some type of rich dynasty, and 20% love.
i could by that, especially in the beginning. i might be a sucker, but i think the love part began to dominate though before they were married
That's why I honestly can't pick a side with Tom and Shiv. Yes, Shiv is abusive and won't ever let Tom forget the imbalance in their relationship but Tom had his own agenda. He just didn't expect it to be so hard to maintain.
I love the talent of both Snook and Macfadyen. While watching the show I am on team Disgusting Brothers. I remember while watching the "Tailgate" fight, thinking Tom did just volunteer to be the sacrifice. Thank you for opening my eyes to the rest of Shiv's side. This show is amazing.
He volunteered because he felt it would be him anyway--so why not accept this fact-and make something positive out of it by letting Logan know he would go quietly while helping the out the firm.
Thank you for this video calling things out as they are. It’s kinda sickening to see the deeply embedded misogyny in how people mostly hate Shiv.
hey Tara, I read a similar comment about misogyny yesterday, but I live in a bubble, so I'm not too well versed in the discourse other than by chatting with people here. And although I've seen Shiv haters, I didn't read any explicit misogyny.
To be clear though, I realize misogyny is real, and I'm not shocked that it is playing a part in the Tom/Shiv discourse. As a dude, it's likely that I harbor misogynistic views that I'm not even aware yet, but I'm always trying to learn and grow. So do you have any specific example that I can reflect on?
You see "misogyny" any time a woman is criticized or held accountable for her actions. That's your female privilege and it is the most heinous of the privileges which is actually prevalent in Western society.
I really have a problem understating Shiv’s feelings. It’s hard for me to believe she lives him, but there is no ‘transaction’ for her being with Tom. She is just so complex. This really keeps me dwelling on this show and I guess it’s why it’s so compelling for the audience.
I LOVE the way your views are evolving on Tom & Shiv's relationship.
You are definitely NOT the only one who has seen Shiv as bad and Tom as good and loving and... PURE, somehow, maybe. (I mean, the guy used PEOPLE as FOOTSTOOLS!)
But, they're both complicated people. And they love each other, I believe. Deeply.
I think Tom's being so open and effusive about his love makes people see him as a kind, loving person. (Matthew Macfadyen's portrayal of Tom has a lot to do with this. So does Sarah Snook's of Shiv, actually.) He IS servile but, only to people he sees as superiors ( his "betters") like SHIV. He clearly sees her as one of his betters. But, he's trying to keep up.
That's why he ate Logan's chicken. Maybe THAT is when he decided they WEREN'T his betters... or SHIV wasn't. I think SOMETHING shifted in him. He realized, then, that he had to be ONE OF THEM, not their servant. And he started to try more.
Likewise, the way Shiv lashes out at people she loves because she fears being rejected or having that love disappoint her makes her harder to like.
Actually, if you really think about it, Tom's lability actually does more harm to others than Shiv's detachment does. He's always picking on people he considers "beneath" him. Shiv is never really needlessly cruel, except to Tom.
Eh, I'm starting to ramble.
Also, YES, Tom is righy to believe that Shiv doesn't think about him. THAT is real. But I also think she DOES think about him more than he knows, she just doesn't let herself be TOO vulnerable with him, so she doesn't let him KNOW that she does, a lot of the time.
As such a big fan of Tom, I don't regret being worried for him earlier in the season. I'm still worried for him on a human level. I never actually hated Shiv per se, so I think some of my past takes on her were a little misunderstood, probably do to my poor wording. But with that said, my views of Shiv have definitely changed upon rewatching a number of scenes and remembering what actually happened. And now I empathize for her, and I'm worried for her as well as Tom.
I'm continuing to read your comment as I type. What you said about Matthew's protrayal is spot on!!! I have been thinking about that as well. These actors are soooooo good, but Tom's character has been offered so many scenes that highlight the pain in his face. And it's easy to feel for him because of that. But I now realize that I can feel for him, while not painting the person who hurt him (usually Shiv) as the enemy. Because his pain is real, and that's sad, but just because he thinks she was wrong about something doesn't mean she actually was.
There are certainly times where she abused him, and he has abused others as you mentioned. That footstool scene was gross.
Great point about the type of people whom Tom has abused btw. As much as I do love Tom, he's far from the ideal human.
Great characters though. Both of them. =))
hell yes, love this deeper dive! ❤
thanks, fang!
When Shiv said she didn’t even care about him, it reminded of the scene in 10 Things I hate about you with Julia Styles and Heath Ledger.
I am not familiar with that movie. Was Julia or Heath being sarcastic? (because I don't believe Shiv feels that way about Tom. That's one of the reasons my last video was called "Shiv and Tom are liars!" lol. i think they said some truths, but they also said some lies for no other reason than to try to hurt each other
@@bridge4 ua-cam.com/video/gGV4hxhxW8o/v-deo.html
Great fvcking movie great scene
Shiv really deflects every point, Tom makes while Tom actually gives an honest answer
Shiv deflected alooooot in that fight. More than Tom, but he did have some of his own. People say silly stuff during fights, unfortunately
Umm remember final ep of Season 2 when Shiv says "no Tom looks logical" as the blood sacrifice. Shiv doesn't care about Tom, just like she says in the actual fight
She said that, so it is understandable why Tom thinks she wanted him to be a sacrifice, but that's not the entire picture.
Tom denied a threesome and she left the room to speak to Logan. During that off-screen conversation, she threw out Kendal's name (as confirmed in a later scene).
In public, she said "Tom looks logical," but then she tried to explain to him that she only said that to look unbiased.
When they got back to the boat, she went to Logan's room and begged him to choose anyone other than Tom.
So I could see why Tom thinks she doesn't have his back, but she actually did behind closed doors.
@@bridge4 But that is part of the problem. Why does it have to be behind closed doors? Why would your spouse need to bat for you only behind closed doors? Even if this was a play she was making, why couldn't Tom be informed of what her intentions were? He even asked why he couldn't be in the loop if they were supposed to be a team. Just because Tom didn't see it, doesn't invalidate his feelings or the impact of her statements about him to her family and his coworkers.
I hope your video gets you so many views!
Amazing. Amazing. You put together everything that happened perfectly.
i laughed out loud when i read this. a lot of views? there's no chance lol. but you made me smile reading that. the fact that you would even hope for something positive for another person such as myself is pretty awesome. never stop being you! =))
@@bridge4 I really do!
U r a genius. I just discovered u and u r the best commentator!, i have aphd in clinical psychology and cant help wondering how u got so smart! Everyone whining about shiv being all bad to tom and as usual i thought I must have gottten it wrong but no!,, please who r u Nd hwhat is ur background etc?.. pure genius
I like Shiv. But the ability to look your husband deep into his eyes and say "I don't love you." Is HITMAN COLD. A totally unprovoked attack.
He owes her nothing.
Bravo UA-cam man with nice voice the optics on this analysis is credible
thanks, William! =))
Gotta rewatch the show, didn’t remember Shiv went to bat for Tom so hard in S2
yeah same here. this show is so dense, that its easy to forget all the nuance. I rewatched the entire show after of S4, and rewatched a lot of it again after the first episode or 2. and there was still stuff that i re-remembered while rewatching alot of it a third time for this video lol. but yeah, Shiv had his back in S1 and S2. he just didnt realize she did
I have seen the fight 3 times. Each time, I change teams: Shiv vs Tom. This video reminds us how many times Shiv helped Tom, how many times Tom didn’t understand & didn’t know that Shiv helped, & how much Tom wanted to be in a rich powerful family & doesn’t have the thick skin for it. Great video.
hey cecilia. yeah, i actually cut out a line from this one (or i think i did), where I said "So Shiv did have his back. But Shiv just didn't go home and brag about it. So didn't know." or something like that
When I went to bed after watching the episode, I was pretty heavily on Team Tom. When I woke up and looked at the script line by line, I started realizing that some of what he said was wrong (even if it was understandably wrong).
And then when making this second video, I rewatched a ton of scenes and realized "whoa, Shiv actually had his back more than I realized. and more importantly, more than Tom realizes"
I'm now pulling for them to work things out more than ever =))
@@bridge4
Since it is nearly all out in the open, it is possible for them to reconnect. Tom has to accept he is NOT a Roy, Shiv will always have more options. Shiv has to accept that she needs to actually show that she cares for Tom in order for Tom to feel loved. No more games. No more stupid jokey gifts.
hear, hear!!
I could be wrong but I didn’t get the feeling that Nate was threatening tomI got the feeling that nate was realizing they were talking about canning
Tom
I could see where you are coming from with that. That was the way it seemed at first. When I rewatched on Monday, his delivery of "oh, Tom" hit me differently though. Seemed a little maliciously victorious. But I just rewatched that scene again, and you might be right actually...
I really hope you're right that they patch things up in the morning, but seeing how pissed Tom looks in the next episode preview, yeah, I'm going to guess it went unresolved.
Im sure I watched the preview yesterday, but I pretty much got to working on this video from the time I woke up until midnight. and then all day today. So if i had seen it, i had forgotten it. I did watch it though after this video was done and the file was rendering as a quick double check to see if anything i said stood out as demonstrably dumb based on the trailer, but i dont recall the scene of Tom that you mentioned. i vaguely recall him on the ATN floor with greg or something
my bad, been a long day. im rambling. so, now that i finished the video and uploaded it, my mind has been free to begin thinking about things from a fresh perspective again. and i just realized (even though this is common sense), that there are only a few days left in their lives. so even if Shiv finds some sort of closure at the funeral, we aren't ever going to see them healthy. we can only hope to see them begin that journey
but that's worth hoping for =))
@@bridge4 Totally agree with you.
The scene I was referring to in the preview was Tom saying (paraphrased) to Greg, that "Information is like a fine wine, you hold it for a while and then you smash it on someone head"
We may not see them resolve things immediately, but like you said, I hope we see them take the starting steps.
gotcha! yeah, i rewatched the teaser last night bc of your comment and laughed at myself since they handnt been on the ATN floor as I had recalled. They were in a conference room
This is the first time I've watched one of them more than once, so I actually started trying to make guesses. But trailers are tricking. For instance, Shiv agreed with Kendal about taking down Mattson iirc. But is that her siding with Ken finally? Or is it just another one of her lies? lol
this video is fucking amazing, congrats. you really nailed it.
But it matters that even if shiv tried to protect tom by keeping him out of jail- he didn't know it because she did it behind his back and to his face she acted like she could care less if that happened and refused to offer any emotional support or relieve his fear, she partly fears revealing she cares because that could make her vulnerable and partly enjoys feeling Tom loves her more than she loves him because it makes her feel secure and its really two sides of the same coin. She is emotionally unavailable to Tom, so how is he supposed to know that she cares? When she speaks to him in public as if he's out of her league. That's the thing about Shiv, she is always nasty to Tom in public and when she is sweet to him, it's only in private. He does love her, even though he probably doubts whether she loves him- as she implies mockingly in their dirty talk- but he seems to be hoping that she does and that she'll show her love more with time and maturity (he know she has intimacy issues) or he thinks that if he's made a mistake by marrying her, at least he can ride the career opportunity. Part of Shiv's appeal when they met was his advancement as well as attraction/love. As the video notes, these aren't mutually exclusive.
Tom seems to be victim of Shiv's trust issues and bullying tactics (she and her siblings bully each other constantly, as its their only way to engage at this point in their lives, Tom even picks it up from them and does it to Greg in order to fit in, only Connor doesn't seem to bully anyone even though he's a bit of a diva). Most of the issues in Tom and Shiv's relationship stem from Shiv, even if both of them are ultimately casualties. People need validation in a relationship. Occasional overtures of loyalty behind closed doors really aren't enough. Obviously Shiv is complex and there are many moments where she seems to feel the need to pretend that she doesn't care what happens to Tom so she doesn't look weak to her Dad and possibly Matsson, and therefore not lose her upper hand, thus- the argument could be made- the ability to influence situations in Tom's favor and hers. I think ultimately she would try to protect Tom but not too "loudly". I often get the feeling that she loves him but is a bit embarrassed that people in her world see him as beneath her and as like this awkward fish out of water who is too agreeable, and so she acts in public a bit like kids who will pretend their not friends with "the loser" in front of the bully and even join or instigate the bullying themselves to establish their distance and superiority to the target. She also doesn't want to look soft to her family by caring about someone who is...well.. far softer than the Roys. But she also didn't want to marry someone on her level, who would ever be able to undermine her in anyway. I think with time she's gained more respect for Tom, but sometimes her snobbery kicks in.
This maybe reading too much into things, but I think at times, particularly in the earlier seasons, Shiv might've preferred it if people thought she married Tom for strategic reasons rather than for love because on some level their marriage embarrasses her. (The fact that her career benefits from a marriage to Tom isn't crazy, he's an insider to the workings of the company and advanced through his own effort before their union, whereas Shiv has way less company experience than her brothers because she was always somewhat excluded by Logan for being a girl).
Great analysis!
thanks =))
This is great. Thank you.
thanks =))
I think Tom married shiv because he loved her yes but more importantly she was his key to the top and they both knew this. That’s why shiv always advocated for Tom to become the ceo and even in the start of season 2 she had to ask him if it was ok if she ran for ceo (after Logan asked her) and why it was easy for Tom to betray her and pick logan in s3 especially since they’re marriage wasn’t really working out by that point. What I don’t understand is why she married him! Yea sure we can say that she loves him and yes in the start of s3 and end of s2 we do see she loves him or Atleast cares enough to want him to not leave her. But everything we know about her and her brothers tells us that for them love isn’t enough and isn’t the driving force behind their decision making. Maybe she’s scared they someone like Nate who “was the one” would get tired of her shit and leave her and she saw how much Tom loved her/ needed her and so he was the only person she could be sure would not leave her? Or betray her? Damn the roy kids are so messed up 💀 even something simple like love or marriage becomes so complicated with them
I'll have to think about that. I vaguely remembering thinking that Shiv and Nate made a better couple during season 1. But despite her and Tom accumulating more and more baggage, I now see them as more of "soul mates" for lack of better words. Or maybe I see it that way due to the baggage as opposed to despite it. I dunno.
But to answer your question, I think Shiv loved and still loves Tom in a way that she never loved Nate. Granted, I'm a hopeless romantic, so who knows lol
I’ve been thinking about why she married him, too. I agree with you that love alone isn’t enough.
Lately I’ve been considering “the Plan” they often spoke of, that Tom would become CEO with her help. I think she believed she never had a chance at the CEO position until Logan surprised her at the Summer Palace.
Marrying someone who could become CEO with her help, is a way to secure her power.
Until Logan dangles the possibility, she had every reason to believe she was never in the running. He wasn’t grooming her in any way, like he was with Kendall and Roman. And the corporate structure is very misogynistic. Even Logan’s offer to her was in secret, and conditional on 3-5 years of additional experience… I’ve often wondered, as Shiv did, “Is this real?”
Wife of CEO who adores her is much more powerful than sister of CEO, especially since historically her brothers have discounted, downplayed, and shut her out.
i think nate wasn't "the one" in s4e6 they mention someone named TK who shiv says was "the one". my guess is he was her first love and got her heart broken. sarah snook has mentioned shiv had a wild past so maybe she hooked up with guys and tom was one of the first ones when the TK thing happened but knowing how sweet tom can be, it's possible she eventually caught feelings for him and they started a relationship. on tom's side i think when he met her he probably wanted to be around her bc of her name and money but eventually caught feelings for her as well.
As Logan said, she is with Tom ("somone fathoms beneath her")because she is afraid of being betrayed.
Before Logan had the attack, Tom had said that he wanted to ask Logan something and was looking for the moment but he couldn't and that same night Logan had the attack
Shiv also suggested Tom go to prison when they were on the yacht. She betrayed Tom so many times, and her family too. Incredible acting and writing. Their fight was painful to watch.
My understanding is that when they were on the yacht, the sacrifice was not about prison but about who to fire to appease shareholders (i could be mistaken though)
Roman threw out Tom's name, and Shiv agreed at the table. But she explained to Tom on the beech that she went along with it so that she seemed unbiased. When they got back to the boat, Shiv went to Logan and asked him if he had considered what they had spoken about, which was Kendal.
So the Logan and Shiv had already had an off-screen conversation. Most likely, that occurred when Tom denied the threesome and Shiv left the room to speak to Logan.
So Shiv threw out Kendal's name behind closed doors, then she played along with the Tom idea in public, but she then went to Logan and begged for him to choose anyone other than Tom in private.
Why don't you mention this when she said " you're not good enough for me "??
the video had gotten really long, and i had addressed that one in the last one. my take on that is that i dont think she actually believes it. it was just something hurtful to say to him
if she does believe it though, then screw here. thats gross
Thanks for those 2 pages!! 😉
i actually scrapped those because they were a little rambly. but i woke up yesterday, the first few comments i read were nice enough to say i shouldnt have dropped it. so i immediately stopped reading comments, and just went to town until midnight (and then 6 more hours today lol)
i skimmed through every episode, and was reminded about stuff that i had forgotten. was a fun little exercise =))
Good points!
thanks, Colleen. only 3 more episodes left. this is going to be intense!!
Can’t wait to see Tom backstab Shiv again, then Greg backstab Tom and Kendall backstab Greg while Roman backstabbing himself in the funeral.
All roads lead to POTUS Connor Roy and his first lady Willa because he’s interested in politics from a very young age.
lol, was not expecting that line about Roman
It's weird you think Kendall is coming out unscathed my bet everything goes to sh*t and they lose because they are not serious people
You have such a great relaxing voice! And interesting insights. New subscriber 😊.
thanks, Lara. love your name!
Totally agree with your point that Shiv was not actually throwing Tom under the bus with Mattson, she was just politicking to gain leverage. I've heard so many people say that she was picking herself over him, but actually I think there is no position for Tom without Shiv in the company. Meaning, she needs to solidify her place with Mattson first before she can even try to lift him up as well.
So much bias against Shiv in the succession discourse has been annoying.
To be honest, I actually saw it the other way at first, too. I was like "wtf Shiv." And we don't know if she was looking out for Tom. But *fingers crossed* she was because that would be the most admirable motivation for her demand in that scene. And, like you said, there is no position at the firm for Tom without her most likely
Somehow I forgot how much fucking Tom and Shiv had been doing in the days(!) leading up to the party.
hahah naughty naughty Shiv and Tom. yeah, it was a quick line at the beginning of the party with Tom saying he was tired because "somebody hasnt been letting me get much sleeeeeep latelyyyy" or something like that lol
so its pretty ironic that the fight began because Tom wanted to call it a night for being tired
@@bridge4 hah you're right! I remember that exact line now that you mention it. And the entire party treated Tom like "the help" anyways. What an episode!
This was really good!
Great video mate
thank you, ser!
Tom is needy.
hey Alannah. i actually didnt realize how needy he was until the last two days of rewatching scenes to put together this video. Tom is often insecure and needy. I still love him, but the dude is a such a softy at times lol
So needy! Jeezus.
if we look at opening credits shiv is the only one watching her father and mother at backyard. I do really thinks she loves Tom and cares about him. But she only replicates what she grew up watching, she doesn't know how to express love.We know she is the most closest to Logan's personality so she just kicks Tom to see if he come back.
On his side i believe he truly loves her too, he got into her for money and power and got in love in the middle of the way and don't know to deal with this lack of honesty they both hold on to.
I never noticed, but that's TRUE, and that has to be significant. She wants to BE LOGAN. It comes up, again and again. It's how Matsson gained her as an ally, comparing her, favorably, to her father, even though Logan did NOT have a sense of humor, in MY recollection...
All Shiv heard was, "...like your Dad."
15:36 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 great video
thank you for this comment!! lol. i realize that I'm not funny, and i rarely try to be. but i was trying there, and im glad someone got a kick out of it. lol this is the first comment i've read today, so for real, thank you for making my day with that =))
"Like mature adults..." not sure they are capable of that
lol, touche. you're probably right
Tom did not "Betray" Shiv to her father. He also owes her father allegiance because 1. He owns and made the company 2. He's his boss and father and law adn 3. HE ACTUALLY KNOWS. WHAT THE F HE"S DOING....and then after he did the right thing telling him He gave her the heads up a about pierce which is the news agency SHE ACTUALLY WANTS to run.
The biggest problem in their marriage is Shiv’s lack of capacity for love. It’s not really all her fault since she never really received it in her youth. But at the same time because she’s refused to deal with it, she can’t conceive of anything except power and dominance. She can’t accept the one person that loved her loving her. Yeah Tom is just as bad as the rest of them but I do believe him when he says he loves her. But she pushed him away enough that more things became more important than loving her.
She only asked her Dad "not Tom" after Tom told her on the beach that he was unhappy with her for the open marriage convo, and for throwing him under the bus as a good candidate for going to prison. And for those who say he only wanted her for power, ..need to watch the wedding night convo--he asked to leave with him to "teach scuba" and "But i do love you".
Two people who love each other. One has had to learn to be stoic and emotionally unavailable because her father who she lived to please thought that emotion is weakness. The other has lower self-esteem and thus needs a callous partner as a psychological crutch and to defend him from this ruthless world he's married into. They fill a void in one another. But not in an entirely healthy way. This relationship was doomed at the end. Had the show kept going,that Waystar Stalin would have ground Tom to pieces. He was basically a young Logan on Steroids. Shiv would not have been able to protect him as effectively because she had zero influence on Stalin. Tom would have been trapped and taken it out on her. She would have eventually left him and taken off with the kid. 8:56 9:48
with as much drinking shiv has been seen doing, i dont think she is mindful of the baby either
she has a glass of something in that party, but do we know for sure whether it was alcohol? (was it their german wine?)
Bridge the gap!
To be fair, Tom already had the ring. Idk where that ring came from, but he procured it on the spot.
Shiv says Tom took away the last 6 months she could've had with Logan. Yes, this is completely wrong. (Considering she didn't even wish him a happy birthday as Roman did).
To me, this accusation shows that Shiv resents Tom because he was by his side when he died; a privilege that no Roy child had. It's easier for her to blame Tom than herself because Tom called her first when it happened but she didn't answer.
Love this couple!
they are so back
No one knows who save tom from kill list
Did the writers name her (Siobhan) "Shiv" deliberately? I like to think so.
I'm not sure I even knew what a "shiv" was until I bought my first video game console, and it came with "the last of us." but now that I do know what a shiv is, I've always wondered that, too
I totally missed that shes pregnant. When is that revealed? This show is almost too subtle at times. Lol
I wanna say the fourth episode, it’s at the very beginning and she’s laying in bed on the phone with a doctor/nurse or something. They mention a 20 week scan, so she’s like halfway
Episode 4 after Logan died
like Wylie and Dana said, it was part of the Episode 4 cold open
I see. Thanks everyone!
Do you think Shiv knew for sure Tom was on the chopping block? Why would she confirm or deny something she wasn’t sure of. Granted, she wasn’t empathetic to Tom’s humiliation.
in order to win over Nate, Lukas mentioned a change in management, and Nate through out Tom's name. Shiv was standing there. We don't know if Lukas would have done that, but it's reasonable to assume that he was at least considering it
what are you refering in terms of confirming or denying? (my bad. im exhausted, so my brains not working on all cylinders anymore)
oh wait, i think i misread. are you referring more generally to the rumors that were going around? and are you saying that Shiv sort of laughing it off makes sense? If so, i agree. Shiv was probably just being social. That doesn't mean that she was okay with Tom getting fired. But I could also understand why he feels humiliated for her laughing at his expense
so I don't think she was wrong to laugh, but I could also see why it hurt Tom
@@bridge4 what I was saying was she may have been caught off guard, but was flippant (laugh) in response. Politicking at Tom’s expense. Cold hearted
oh yeah yeah. i see what you're saying now
It would have been interesting to see more of the examples Tom was referring to. For instance, I could see a situation where someone mentioned it, and Shiv just laughed it off, hoping that the conversation would move on to something else instead responding and bringing more time and attention to the topic. In that hypothetical, I could see Tom fuming about her laugh
And I could see myself acting the same way, but it's pretty weak for myself or Tom to do that
I am sorry but you CANNOT blame the jail thing on Tom....how Shiv acted was reprehensible and he had every right to throw that in her face. Ridiculous take.
B...
You misunderstood the Tom prenup scenario. Tom was putting on an act about not caring to see it. He was telling shiv he didn't care about seeing the prenup and he will sign it, but then goes onto say that my lawyer insists on looking it over, etc. It was pretty obvious what Tom was doing and I don't think Shiv bought Tom's act for a second, but it didn't seem to bother her what Tom was doing.
IMO The fight on this night started brewing with Tom’s horrible unfunny covert passively aggressive gift to Shiv. (The scorpion paperweight) a gift that will and did 100% breed contempt. It’s as funny as if Shiv gave Tom a gift of the dead snake to wear around his neck, that she referred to during their fight. That said of course there are many elements as pointed out in this vid. Still I feel that gift was a catalyst.
Interesting. In a previous draft of this topic, I was beginning to touch on every single line, but I ended up going a different direction. In that version of the script, I had a different take on the scorpion.
When Tom gave it to her, he hadn't really put much thought on it. It was just a silly joke. when she asked if she was the scorpion, he said yeah. but then he said he was the scorpion too. When she first thought about it, she took offense, but she quickly pushed that emotion aside and largely liked the gift since it was just dumb, random, and silly
so my take on her scorpion comment early in the fight was that the small piece of her that was offended by it bubbled to the surface since our emotions get funky during fights.
when you said passively aggressive, i thought you were going to go a different direction. because i do think Tom started the fight with something passive aggressive
So Tom went outside. She followed him, and he tried to get her to just drop it and go inside since he was tired. She had a very valid concern about the legal issues with Mattson, so she didn't go inside. He responded with something along the lines of "you'll be fine." But it wasnt a genuine "i care about you. its going to be okay. you'll be fine" type comment like he has done in the past. It was a passive aggressive "you'll be fine, so STFU" type comment. And she knew it. That's when things went south
So its intersting. On the one hand, Tom tried to stop the fight from happening, but on the other, he threw the first shot. Not the hardest shot. But the first one for sure
Going back to your point though. I'll have to think about that. It IS a pretty random gift, so maybe I am underestimating the douchiness of such a gift, for lack of better words
@@bridge4 if your a women this gift is offensive (imo) when a man offers a gift to their women (and it was kind of a special morning) they had just reunited, it was going well, prob to both their surprise, they were throwing this huge event together in their home, then that morning he feigns special affection yet gives her that.Not funny. Shivs reactions are held close, so could be interpreted your way or as I did. Don’t give ur women a gag joke gift that makes a neg statement about her, especially in a delicate moment in one’s relationship, unless followed up with diamonds or something nice she will really like. Bad idea. If he would have given her something she actually liked, that showed his sincere affection, I think the outcome (other than it’s a scripted/show) could have, would have been different. I get many overlooked this “gift”, see it as a throw away or a joke. If shiv would have brought Tom a nicely wrapped box that morning as a surprise, he opened with anticipation only to find a dead snake …. I think similar feelings of disappointment would develop. And the audience would have viewed it as what a bitch. Plus she is pregnant , so far has not felt safe to entrust this info with anyone not even Tom. On top of everything else She is dealing with, this is a deep emotional tumultuous situation that reaches to her very core that she is isolated with, left to ponder - deal with ALL on her own. The one person she might trusted gives her that.
Thats a good point about the timing of the gift that i hadn't considered! But I still wonder if Tom did it maliciously or if it was just a result of him being a big dum dum.
But you might be right. There might have been more thought behind it then I am acknowledging. To play devils advocate though, Shiv has responded well to Tom recently when he's pushed back on her, so he might have intentionally thought of it as a jab, but one that she would like... ?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@bridge4 I’m not saying it was malicious, but don’t excuse it as a complete dumb dumb move either. btw I edited my reply a few times adding several other points. I’m writing fast so excuse bad punctuation and grammatical errors. Yet u can get my drift. Pushing back is one thing, offering a gift then it turning out to be a neg statement of the person it offered to, is another. That said there is a place and time for gag gifts.
Shiv has always hurt Tom to the core.
Dude, in trying to be "balanced," you are totally overdoing the Shiv case. Come on - carefully analyze Sarah Snook's facial expressions - she says so much about Shiv's dismissive and utilitarian/transactional approach to love (mirroring Logan) with her expressions. Ty for the video anyway.
I appreciate your feedback and kind words. But I didn't make any attempt to be balanced. I was just trying to call it as I see it (and im sure i made mistakes). But I promise you, I didn't have any agenda here to defend Shiv. I'm team Tom! =))
Shiv is nasty and emotionless, unless it relates to her personal wellbeing
Shiv has had some great moments with her brothers, most notably, Ken during Ken's breakdowns (in the office in Season 2, and outside the wedding reception in Season 3)
I think its ridiculous to think LOVE should only be based on attraction and how you feel about each other. Ther are PRACTICAL reasons to find suitable mates and you can also be sexually attracted to them at the same time. Tom is an ambitious man. Shiv's position certainly played a role. But, they are also very much alike. And there is REAL HEAT between them. They have a brutality to them, a dark humor, the ability to be one and separate at the same time. But, Shiv took it too far. Tom agreed to a lot of crap out of devotion and respect for her as a powerful being. He didnt realize that Shiv wanted some pushback. She wants someone to tell her NO. She wants a man that can MAKE HER RESPECT HIM. And the more Tom pulls away, the more she began to love him. All she knows how to do, is fight with the boys. That is why they say, that it takes an EXTREMELY CONFIDENT MAN to be with a woman that does not need him. Shiv, is one of those people that cannot tell the difference between sarcasm and nastiness. Her idea of play fighting was just bullying. Because of how she was raised. Neglectful father and an absentee mother. And I think Tom is always afraid of his position being shaky. And it caused him to be less confident in many situations. That insecurity, against her narcissism is how the feed off each other. But, its not actual love. They both became Narcissistic Supply. When Tom needed her the most, she had no idea how to remedy any of those emotions. When Tom is in need of protection - she piles on. But, that is marriage. It is always hard to break into a solid family, with long dark histories. And you cannot really love a person, until you know what they need emotionally. Never assume you know. Finding out the hard way, always leads to divorce.
You got lot of hate from shiv fans that's the reason you started to hate tom 😂😂
hahah, no no. Tom is my favorite character right now!! =))
13:53 Sorry, YOU are totally wrong here. Though yes, the kids went radio silent (for good reason), it WAS Tom who caused the whole thing in the first place by betraying not only Shiv, but the siblings in general. He did *thee most* horrible betrayal of all. I am surprised Shiv never passed this information on to her brothers and also surprised the writers didn't make use of this monumental betrayal throughout the entire Season 4. Tom caused the biggest betrayal and stumbling block to their sound future and chance to be in agreement as a team, finally. The kids were in a position to TAKE OVER once and for all. Were I they, Mom would never be talked to either- EVER AGAIN~!!
Shiv is selfish and she should belongs to street 😊
lol. big Shiv fan, eh? :-P
they're all selfish, that's the point babes
@@jopine2825 Shiv takes the cake
@@jalenr.6542 seeing things from the perspective of a misogynist is honestly hilarious. how you gonna sit here and tell me shiv is worse than their father. delusion is crazyyyy
Shiv is a terrible wife we can all agree
You are incredibly naive.
Tom never wanted to teach scuba. This was a test: deny (me and scuba) or accept (me and wealth.) through false dichotomy, Tom has inculcated himself as part of Shiv’s wealth and standing.
Shiv has always resented her station, and she resent Tom for wanting in. And for valuing it more than her.
Shiv therefore emasculates, belittles, and cucks Tom at every opportunity.
What does Tom get out of this?
Well, 2 things. 1. Immense wealth and potentially power. 2. “You’re a masochist and can’t even take it.” Sure, the pain will eventually hurt too much, but what an exquisite ride it will be.
Tom sucks. Tom is a grasping interloper. Karl and Shiv know what’s up.
Sounds like you're projecting. Been through a bitter divorce lately?
@@miseendriste6337 haha. No.
I just have clocked Tom as a “masochist who can’t even take it” since episode one. I also think he has a lot of cognitive dissonance about his sexual orientation.
Even still. #teamshiv
Sorry, but I continue to believe that she's a horrible person. Tom is just naive and too pure and didn't know how to play "the game", however, infidelity came from Shiv. I agree with him, she shouldn't be a mother, she only thinks about her. Tom was a commodity.
Tom is anything but too pure ......just look at how he acts towards people he thinks are beneath him ie greg
There is nothing naive or pure about Tom😂
Tom is very lovable at times, so I often don't think about his low points. But when you call him pure, some past scenes come to mind. Footstooling an employee. Harassing people in the compliment booth. And venting his anger onto to Greg several times. So I'm not sure he's pure per se lol. Still a big fan though. And I think he's a good guy for the most part.
@@bridge4 see that's the thing.....he's only lovable to people that the he thinks are above him like Logan,shiv and the bros he plays nice with them coz that's he's defense mechanism to survive or rise up and it has worked for him until now
Great analysis!
I will have to disagreed with most of your analysis about Shiv. It’s not that complicated, Shiv doesnt respect Tom and she never did. Deep down Tom always knew it but he was hoping things will change. Why? Love maybe. Their last fight is Tom awakening and accepting the reality. Shiv is not evil but she is a terrible person to have child with. Having the same jugement coming from her mom and Tom is a confirmation.
I love the sound of your voice.
Fantastic review.
Your process is very thorough.
This episode could be used in counseling , to review how people unfairly ‘fight ‘ .
Not physically of course, but truthfully with an objection ( like a marriage) .
Sometimes when a person is tired they should just go to sleep and pick up with the conversation later 😊
exactly!! dont get me wrong, i've been on both ends of fights with stupid, pointless insults. so i get it. But above all else, this fight never should have happen. To Tom's credit, he knew that and tried to get her to just give him space. But Shiv had a real issue on her mind (legal issues with Mattson), so it's understandable why she brought it up. And although Tom didn't even want to talk, he threw out the first jab. It was as subtle one, but the "you're going to be okay" wasn't a comforting type comment. The tone and delivery was a minor jab of sorts because it hinted at more. That triggered her, and she took it to the next level. And it kept escalating on both sides from there.
But like you said, although the fight was captivating and real, the main takeaway is that the fight was full of pointless, insults
They just aren’t right for each other unfortunately. Shiv’s not capable of taking Tom seriously and respect him to communicate with him properly. They created so many misunderstandings and misalignment with each other. Tom has the power and wealth now but he’s miserable and insecure all the time. His wife refused to stand firm and give him the confident backing he needs…
You might be right, but the elephant in the room is that Shiv is still grieving her father. The funeral episode (two from now?) might give her some closure that she needs to begin rebuilding with Tom in a healthy way. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't work out though. They are both very broken right now, and it's going to take a lot of time and work for them to heal.
Best commentary yet, no one else points out that Shiv went to bat, many times for Tom.
Hey just seen your channel. This was exactly the video I was looking for❤
Woman bashing narrative - OmG
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