Still remember when IR35 was introduced..... it was clear to me that the UK had no interest in small business - I was gone from the UK with my used laptop and a couple of suitcases within two years. Got a couple of successful companies now in the US and houses in the mountains and on the beach - whereas in the UK I would still be a cash-cow for the government.
IR35 was an absolutely idiotic and abusive bit of legislation. Imagine this: The problem (according to HMRC, at least) is that *employers* are dodging tax by using contractors instead of employees. So to fix this, we're not going to tax the employer as if he's using employees. No, we'll tax the *contractor* instead, as if he's an employee. So not only does this not solve the issue and the employer is still dodging tax payments, but now you're forcing the contractor to pay those taxes out of his income. The employer pays no extra tax and it is still getting someone that acts like an employee, while the contractor takes an absolutely massive pay cut while not having anything resembling an employee position! Because they don't go and tell the employer "Hey, you're using these contractors as employees, so they should have the same benefits." None of that. When I started contracting, not having employee benefits such as paid vacation, overtime rates, paid medical leave, health insurance, pension payments, etc, was well worth it given the extra money I was making compared to the average employee. But as HMRC started digging into my income, with IR35 I would have made as much money as a new starter (despite having 5 years of experience, but I would still have absolutely none of the benefits of an employee. How on Earth was this fair. I reached the same conclusion as you: HMRC is set on destroying any way people find of making a profit. It's just not viable to have a small business.
@@CristiNeaguThe employers weren’t avoiding tax by doing this, they would not have been liable for any tax whether the worker was a contractor or employee, hence going after the “employee”. What the employer was avoiding was National Insurance, and where IR35 is found to have been applicable they have absolutely gone after employers for this, including for previous tax years. In my industry, the desire to become a contractor (usually by starting a limited services company) has been entirely employee driven, to avoid some NI, claim more expenses against tax and, often very dubiously, paying family members inc spouse a salary up to the basic rate tax allowance. I’ve just retired, but as an employer I was very much in favour of HMRC action to shut this down.
Yes it's completely crippling entrepreneurship, and stopping small businesses taking on more employees. So another win for all big established companies.
I remember at the time that the minister that pushed IR35 had a significant personal financial interest in Umbrella Companies. Whole thing seemed so unfair to me. Made my Ltd co untenable in the long run unfortunately. Could have been there to take side work and I would be paying MORE tax on multiple incomes rather than the one I pay now. UK gov tax policy is so short sighted and destroys entrepreneurialism. Greed in the short term at the cost of destroying growth and sabotaging long term tax revenue. Unfortunately govt ministers rarely think outside of the next 5 years when developing policy as they know they are unlikely to be in post or be held to account for those policies. Unfortunately govt in the UK has become way too large, some kind of reform needs to take place to cut the number of laws, the amount of spending etc. as well as reign in poorly managed public organisations such as the NHS. If not the UK will have no future and will slowly keep dying and parasitizing the good workers and entrepreneurs to the point where they leave, hastening the UKs inevitable collapse into a 3rd world economy.
The other thing to be aware of is there's a threshold for making payments on account. If your tax bill for the year drops below £1000 you don't make them - but then the next year if you go back above this you have to pay the whole year'sliability, plus 50% payment on account, in January. You are NEVER paying for money you haven't earned yet - the whole system runs almost a year behind, so the first payment on account in Jan is for income in Apr-Sep of the PREVIOUS year. By this point you probably know if your earnings are significantly lower, and when you submit the SA form you should complete the "Apply to reduce payments on account" section.
Ah yes, that’s a really good point you have made. And once you have got over the shock at that first year, you will basically be back to a normal cash flow of paying tax every six months ‘up front’ on money you have already earned.
I worked for a millionaire chap in 2008 in London and he told me if I ever opened a business, pay yourself first, staff second, rent of premises and utilities, then the government and council last. Always pay the government last. Even if they say they will fine you. You can always agree a payment plan with them. So, if people are clever, they will do something similar. Rich people do it like this all the time.
He sounds like a typical selfish, greedy, unscrupulous, narcissistic London businessman. Fortunately most business people I know would prioritise paying staff first as they value those staff & recognise that without them they don't have a business.
I got hit with this the last 2 tax years after going from a trickle of self employment to a real jobs worth, I was broadsided by it as well. Great video raising awareness.
Anyone with income that is not PAYE is in the net. This was a measure to increase the tax take for a single year of Government, but of course makes no actual difference in the second year. They can never afford to remove it, whereas it is terrible for the first couple of years to startup small business. Typical Government (treasury) stupidity.
Forcing you to pay tax (in advance) on money you haven't even earnt yet (and might not earn !) sounds like extortion to me. Whether it's "corrected" later on or not, they have still deprived you of your own money, which you might have invested and got a return on or needed for an emergency but now have to borrow elsewhere. To play "Devil's advocate", I guess on the flip side, if you're not paying taxes monthly and are doing an assessment for the past 12 months, the government sees it as you have been holding "their money" for 12 months and now it's "their turn". It is your money being taxed though ! It is your money they are wanting to take off you regardless of when they do it so why shouldn't you pay in arrears ? Paying taxes on money you haven't even earned yet seems very unfair to me and also very dystopian !
Yeah it definitely came as a shock to me! Now I know what the rule is, I can plan better for the next assessment. Hopefully I won’t come across another new rule next time 🤞
@tigerblue42 it's not in advance you are paying tax in the uear you earn it (same as those on PAYE). The SA asks you whether you will earn a similar amount in next tax year and if you do, all they say is pay half of the expected tax in jan and the rest on July. If during the year you feel your earnings will drop you log back in and ask for the payment on account to be amended.
@@prash_t I have no "skin in the game" on this one but predicting what you will earn and paying the tax up front sounds like "in advance" to me. 6 months in advance is still "in advance" even if it's paid in the same calendar year.
@tigerblue42 you complete your self-assessment late in the subsequent tax year so you should know what you are likely to earn. Even then you only pay half of what is predicted in Jan of the tax year you earned it. The rest is paid after that tax year in July. If you don't know what you have earnt by then then you need an accountant to help you. There is nothing unfair about this. If you are an employee you pay your tax every month. I would argue that the self employed / those with investment income delay paying their tax. Nothing advanced about this system.
@@prash_t If you're having to predict what you will earn in future and pay tax on it in advance then I see that as unfair. If you disagree then that's absolutely fine.
I am aware of this and always plan for it, however, if you have been caught by surprise, I believe you can challenge the payment on account amount, particularly if you believe that next years income to declare will be less than this year. So you can apply for a reduction.....I'm not sure whether this will apply in your instance. However, it's an important topic to air for those unaware so thanks for putting this out
Thanks mate! Yep I’ve had a look and you can ask for a repayment if you are expecting next tax year to be lower. I also think you can ask to have it spread out over the next tax year by changing your PAYE tax code to adjust the tax you pay each month on your salary. Now I know about “payments on account” I’ll be more vigilant next time for sure 👍
If you weren't aware of this, make sure you are aware of Making Tax Digital as many people do not know about that. It's going to cause the self-employed and landlords a major upset when it comes in.
You are not paying tax in advance. You are being asked to pay 50% of the amount you should pay (ie the tax on your earnings apr to sep) in jan the follwoing year so you are still paying in arears. You are actually getting four months credit. If you feel the 50% is too much based on your expected earnings you can also speak to the tax office and agree to reduce it, but you could be liable for interest if there is a significant under payment
@@misterpizzaman3581can you please explain what you mean? What's a dividend? How does it work please? I'm tired of being so poor because of these annoying rules
@@misterpizzaman3581 Doesn't work, as far as I know. I had an LTD and paid myself only dividends and had to do the same exact thing. Dividends make it a bit more tax efficient, as you're not paying the extra NI, but you still need to declare dividends on your SA and pay tax on them.
Good video to explain to your customers just why you charge what you charge & how difficult being self employed is hence company rates apply not just an hourly rate! Businesses are there to make profits whereas charities do things at reduced costs or free! I’ve had this in the past payments on account it’s crazy
By asking people to pay their taxes? How? The self-employed would otherwise always be paying tax years after the financial year end while PAYE pay every month.
It's only a problem if your income is likely to go down next year. The upside to self-assessment is you only need to make 2 generally predictable payments a year. And if you're in the 40% tax bracket, well you're fortunate and you get to keep 6000 on every additional 10000 that the average citizen doesn't have. If you think self-assessment is rough - try being a US Citizen and having to also report everything on an increasingly complicated form 1040, and having to carefully balance what's tax-exempt on one side but not the other.
Sounds rough mate, I’ve heard the US tax rules can be brutal. Don’t envy you there. The 40% tax bracket and 10,000 additional income is just for illustration purposes to be able to use whole numbers. Hopefully this video will serve as a warning for people that do not know about this rule 👍
I did have a problem with this when I took £60k in dividends one year to fund a property purchase. I was fortunate that my accountant was able to speak with HMRC and reduce my subsequent years payment on accont pointing out the year was an anomaly. If this is the case speak with ypur accountant or hmrc! To be honest a few thpusand is trivial but I'm a lot older so my financial resilience is higher.. That said, you shoyld keep a fifhting fund for emergencies.. Probably 100% of your tax liabilities in hand...
Amazing video this has happened to me first year I made income this year I haven’t and hmrc have predicted on the basis that I would still make the same amount but it’s 0. I called them yesterday and they have agreed to reduce the payments. I can’t wait to close the business and forget the whole thing
PAYE pay every month. The self-employed get longer for the first year, but thereafter pay an estimated tax for every 1/2 year albeit 3 months later. If you expect your 2nd year to have a lower profit, you can tell HMRC and pay less, but the scheme is designed to stop people getting in trouble. And remember that the tax return is not "due" on the 31st January, but the the 6th April, so this only causes a problem for those that leave their return to the last minute. You can complete the return in say May and still wait to January and July to pay the tax as normal, but it avoids surprises.
To be fair, you're not paying in advance.. we pay tax in January for the period April - April last year, so when they want another 50% thats the period April - September.. it's January! We've had Septembers money for at least 3 months before they're asking for the tax on it. I think this is just another instance of how it used to be better, but now we're not getting as good of a deal, it seems like we're being shafted. But I think it should have always been like this..
For those complaining about UK, in Greece you pay 100% upfront. Also, if you have reasonable grounds to expect that your following year's income will be lower, there is a very straightforward facility, within the same web portal, to reduce these upfront payments. This was used extensively during Covid, which disrupt the work of many who were self employed.
@@CristiNeagu I am trying to remember... but I believe for me this kicked in after the 2nd or maybe even 3rd year of being self employed. Maybe there is a "grace" period, or maybe you have to make a certain level of income before it kicks in. At any rate, I personally never had a problem with it and when I was out of work due to Covid and personal circumstances it was very hassle free to reduce those payments based on my estimated income.
You can ask for your payments on account to be less if you expect the current year's earnings to be less. The system is designed so they don't request everything in a single sum. I hate ot like this, but that is the system we have inherited.
Ha! Yes always been the way. In my 3rd year in business I had a really good year. They charged me 18mth of tax then 6mth of tax before July the same year. Killed my cash flow!
You can tell HMRC if you think you will not earn as much next year as this year and they will reduce the amount to pay to what you decide. BUT! If you are wrong they will penalise you by charging you interest on the difference between what you decided and on the actual figures when you do next year’s self assessment. I did this because I stopped renting out a property for last 6 months of the year and knew my tax bill would drop significantly. It does seem unfair paying tax on salary and on something else on account.
You don't have to pay payments on account, I just told them no, I want it gaining interest in my account not theirs. So I only paid the correct amount t of tax for that year.
If it's a one off, you can reduce the payment on account by declaration to HMRC via the SA web site. If however it transpires you haven't paid enough on account you will get charged interest, but it's not a crippler.
The UK has one of the longest and most complex tax books in the world, so many loopholes if you can afford a high end accountant. I pre paid £10.5k future earning tax but had to close the business as permanently inured (I do work but on payroll now). It’s taken a year to get it back and no they don’t pay the interest lost.
I have suffered this. It is really unclear how you should manage this. What I did was adjust my tax code so to minimise what I had to pay in January and July. I got it close to zero.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. You pay tax in arrears. The final bill for end of financial year in April is paid the following January. Nearly 10 months after the end of year. However, there are these 'payments on account' during the year. These are, however, based on money you have already earned, and assumed that your earnings matched last year. As I say, it is payment for money you have already earned, it just has not yet been declared yet. This year lower than last year? No problem- you can tell HMRC that your income has reduced, and pay a lower amount to match. At the end of the year, you fill in your return, and the total extra needed to match your actual earnings becomes due. Your January bill consists of the final payment for last year, and a third (roughly) of this year (estimated). Given that you are over 9 months into the year, and they want a third (four months worth) this is NOT paying in advance!
NO THIS IS NOT HOW IT WORKS! The payment on account is for half the tax on the expected earnings for the year: that is not the same as the first half years earnings if your business brings in money right at the end of the tax year.
@@trueriver1950 It is still nearly 10 months into the year, and a payment of six months worth. The missing part is February, March, and five days of April. How many people earn most of their money in those months? And for them, they can ask to pay a lower sum.
"As I say, it is payment for money you have already earned, it just has not yet been declared yet". No it isn't. Its based on the assumption that earnings in the following tax year will be the same as this years. "No problem- you can tell HMRC that your income has reduced, and pay a lower amount to match" You can but that is additional admin and creates otherwise unnecessary work.
@@alanrobertson9790 Most people are in the PAYE system. Meaning that they pay their income tax before receiving any income, on a monthly basis. The self-employed (etc) do not- they pay in arrears. If there were not a payment on account system, they would not pay for what they earned in April until the January two years hence. Some 21 months later. That would seem somewhat generous to those on PAYE. So there is an interim payment, based on the previous years income. What else would it be based on? It is reasonable accurate for most people (especially as it is 6 months tax 10 months into the year), with a method in place for the few for whom is does not fit. I was self employed for decades, and found the system increasingly easy to use. Like most people, my income tended to increase over the years, so the interim payments were always behind earnings. Add the other benefits (chargeable expenses, lower NI etc) and I was very content with the system.
@@Tensquaremetreworkshop I am beginning to wonder whether you have done any of this. 1) "Meaning that they pay their income tax before receiving any income, on a monthly basis." They pay the tax at the same time as receiving their income at the end of the month. 2) "The self-employed (etc) do not- they pay in arrears" Self employed can also pay themselves monthly on exactly the same basis via PAYE. The distinction is made for corporation and dividends etc but both self-employed and everyone else pays these at the end of the tax year. The difference depends on the type of income and tax paid not the type of person. 3) "Some 21 months later." Wrong tax paid would never be more than 12 months. 4) "What else would it be based on?" How about calculating what was earnt by the company in the tax year and paying at the end of the year, which everyone else does for all taxes bar PAYE. Isn't a once through system better than iterations and corrections? 5) "I was self employed for decades" well did the accountancy at my limited company for 11 years which is why I find your arguments faulty. The distinction between in advance and in arrears is faulty. This does not explain or justify the different treatments.6) "found the system increasingly easy to use" agreed however if the HMRC makes a mistake they ask you to rereport the already correct numbers.
This caught me out years ago but I'm sure you can make adjustments on your form and to reduce the POA. So you fill out as normal but there may be somewhere on the form to opt to pay £0 POA. You'll just have to do that yearly I believe. It'll align you back to the 'Calculate>Pay' but I'm no accountant and since then my income structure has changed where most of my income is through my employer and only a small amount now is via freelance work. But I do recall having same issue as you and was blindsided by POA when I was fully freelance. But I'm no finance advisor/accountant, so to anyone reading this, by all means correct me but don't take the advice without further research.
@ I just Google’d it and it does say you can contact HMRC to reduce, but I can’t help but feel I remember a page somewhere on their site where I could fill it out… but good luck for next year regarding this… this time of year is always a headache having to file the tax return…
@@leo_hoang. You can make the adjustment of the ‘on account’ payment yourself - including a narrative for your reasons why within the current year’s tax return. It’s really very simple. So, I’m unsure why the OP has been made. He’s highlighting that he hasn’t done his homework on personal taxes when it’s his legal responsibility to ensure he has paid / is paying the correct amount of tax.
I always found this annoying not for the actual money but because it was a needless complication. So much simpler if you just pay what you actually owe them now. It will affect anyone who is self-employed or with a limited company. So its not just the narrator.
With PAYE, you have to pay tax every month, whereas with self-assessment, it’s months after you have received the income. I wouldn’t say this 50% balancing is particularly unfair.
With PAYE you also have…money coming in every single month…holiday pay…Sickness pay…Bank Holiday pay…Christmas Bonus… Maternity/Paternity pay… People who are taking risks and trying to build something out of nothing lead a much more perilous and precarious existence where there isn’t a never-ending stream of income to give HMRC a year in advance.
Note 2: always get an accountant to deal with them, and limit said accountant to zero pounds and 1 year in your letter of authority so they can't make any deals on your behalf and if there are mistakes it wasn't you ...
I got caught with exactly this. Luckily I like to get my tax return done early so I had a few months to save the extra. Paying tax is like wading through treacle. It makes everything such a drag.
Just been caught for this aswell ,had 10 years of renting paid tax yearly ,didn't do any improvements and little invoices last year so tax due was above the 1k now paying twice this year for future and past gutted ,I also didn't know this rule 😢
Yeah, the UK tax system does not reward growth does it? It's particularly hard as your turnover increases each year. Only when your earnings plateau can you start to budget and until then you somehow you have to magic the money from somewhere. You're basically loaning the HMRC your money. I find it helps me to pay them each month by direct debit.
They really don't, it's the opposite. If you grow they just want to take way more and it gets harder the more you grow. There's all these tricks and loopholes the elite use but we don't know what we don't know. So they're fine and they won't fix the loopholes either.
It is not pre-paying next year. In January you will have earned 10 months of that year's income from which the tax is due. Similarly in July you will have earned all 12 months on which that "Payment In Advance" is due. If you were strictly PAYE then this will have automatically happened. Why should you benefit further when others don't?
What are you talking about benefit further? Why are you being such a bellend? People with fluctuating income cannot afford to pay tax in advance based on an estimation. People under PAYE are on more stable incomes and don't see any of this happening anyway. This happening as someone self employed is shocking and now means you might not actually be able to afford rent because you've just been forced to give away that money. So no breathing room and no planning.
@@MonsterJuiced Thanks for the personal criticism. I shall refrain from similar. What you seem to be unaware of is the dates and tax years in question. In January 2025 the submission for the tax year ending in April 2024 is due. The person above by the end of January 2025 will already know how much they have earned so far for the tax year ending in April 2025. As such, they should have been setting aside money as it was earned since April 2024 up until January 2025 to pay for this year ending April 2025 tax. As such, it should be easy to determine whether the payment on account is fair or not and, if not, to challenge it. They should already have the money waiting in their accounts from the money they have earned that year.
@NeilHorsburgh right I guess you don't know what it's like when you're waiting 6 months for a company to fulfil an invoice you've spent 2 months prior working on and not receiving any money in that time because "that's just not how they work". Then you get slapped with an upfront tax payment on top of your previous years when you have no money left because you're not being paid predictably/ monthly. Atleast having a year's breathing space gives you chance to muster up the funds or know for sure what you're earning and what you can afford. This is totally unnecessary and just having yearly expectations is the only fair way.
@@MonsterJuiced Your guess is wrong. I have run my own company and worked for others. I am well aware of the joys of chasing invoices. It is not an upfront tax payment demand. That is where the disconnect is here. The money on which the tax is to be paid has already been paid to the individual by this point. If HMRC has its estimate wrong they are more than happy to change it.
@@NeilHorsburgh It literally is upfront because the tax return isn't due yet! If you're a normal employee they don't pay back any tax before the end of the tax year, they wait until the following year! As a self employed you're being hit with a future tax bill just because they want the money sooner rather than later. Why you're defending this I have no idea unless you benefit from this somehow. It's disgusting and blatant extortion. You can not know what your tax bill will be until the entire tax year has been fulfilled. This is why it's an estimate and they make you pay based on that. And to challenge it doesn't help because they instead want the money anyway, and then pay you back a year later. It's wrong and just another example of our stupid country figuring out ways to prevent people from living comfortably.
@@CristiNeagu No you submit your corporate tax return 9 months after your business year end and pay any corp tax that you are liable for, there is no payment on account.
I think the way I saw it explained to me is you're doing your assessment for the 23/24 tax year. We are now half way through the 24/25 tax year, so in theory, you'd have had half the income already this year. Not going to say its right, but this is the way I see it
@@WhatWorked4Me yea but even if that's the case, a lot of people won't have any money to spare at that point to pay the upfront extra tax due to fluctuation and uncertainty. It's not fair at all
@@neilberry7345 It literally isn't you idiot. It's upfront because the tax year hasn't ended and they have to make an estimate based on what they think. How are you this happy to defend the government? Do you love handing over your money to them? Do you benefit in some way from defending them? Who the hell are you to tell me? I don't have the money yet, so it's upfront. If I filed a tax return before the payment, it would be in arrears. Dickhead
@@neilberry7345 @neilberry7345 It literally isn't you idiot. It's upfront because the tax year hasn't ended and they have to make an estimate based on what they think. How are you this happy to defend the government? Do you love handing over your money to them? Do you benefit in some way from defending them? Who the hell are you to tell me? I don't have the money yet, so it's upfront. If I filed a tax return before the payment, it would be in arrears.
Good luck to HMRC over the next 2 years. Over the next 2 years, most businesses will crash or at least suffer, so this Assumed Tax will be unpayable as cash flow will diminish to such a degree that there will be no cash to actually pay this sum. I know.
Different perspectives - the first time you pay 4k, this is in arrears whilst in future you will pay tax in the tax you you earn the money (same as PAYE). Not sure why you are surprised by this as it is clearly illustrated in the final page of the tax calculation
Within the return you can claim a reduction to the 50% ‘on account’ if you anticipate that your income for the next year will be (significantly) less than the current year being assessed. This is basic stuff. You haven’t been unlucky. You’ve just not done your homework.
Yup, they do this, and it's a real B45T4RD - you get hammered unexpectedly at the end of January one year, and then when you try to recover from that, they want some more in July. And then forever afterwards, you have a bill a month after the expense of Christmas, and then another one just when you were thinking of taking a summer holiday. Unless you have an unusually prosperous 9+ months, you never really get back on top of things.
Many comments say that you are always paying in arrears, because the final amount is due months after the end of the tax year It's not quite true, unless you earn about the same in each third of the tax year. If you only earn at Christmas, the HMRC still expect a third of the tax on your New Year earnings in that year, and that can be before you earn them. Example: tax year ending 5 Apr 2024 Final payment due Jan 2025 for that year, Plus 33% payment on account for year ending 5 April 2025. If the money comes in evenly then you've already earned that money; but if you only sell at Christmas and have to give your customers credit, in Jan 2025 you are still waiting for those invoices to come in, but the Revenue want 33% of the money anyway. OK this is a niche example, but there are other seasonal businesses that are similarly affected. Paying half a year's tax a quarter of a year before the end of the year year only puts you ahead in your trade is reasonably uniform over the year, and the effects are not distributed evenly across all businesses.
Let's get something straight: all HMRC is civil, meaning they can't do anything. Second: only a court can issue a fine. Third the tax man is making up its own rules as it goes: 'assume' isn't a law. You need to send a registered letter saying you are experiencing stress and pain due to their duress and unaccaptable unlawful requests and harassement and that people in their organisation will be held personally liable ... then notice how the letter will be signed for without a name (which is unlawful - they have to sign their name) ... and the whole thing will just melt away ... Don't give them anything: use an LTD, pay yourself dividends up to 19K a year so tax free and nothing else ...
Interesting. I have been harassed by a tax inspector for over 2 years now on why I didn't declare enough income in the same year I was legally shut down by the gov. I am a hotel, the year in question is 22/23. He had still yet to find anything wrong and so keeps going and going. I might try that letter thing. Thanks for the heads up.
This has been around since about 2018 or 2019, something like that. I have two issues with this: 1. When you start doing this, you basically pay 50% more tax. That is huge. 2. This is basically a loan to HMRC, for which they pay no interest. This is extortionate. In my opinion, it is not up to HMRC to make sure I can pay my taxes. I run my business, I manage my funds, that's my problem, not HMRC's. If they want a say in it, then they can also take up part of the liability. Since they are obviously not going to assume any liability for my business, they shouldn't tell me how to manage my accounts. And demanding an advance payment without interest is absolutely ridiculous.
@@neilberry7345 Nope. I haven't earnt a single penny as far as HMRC are concerned until I submit my tax return. If HMRC want me paying for the first half of the tax year, then they should have me do tax returns bi-annually. Fact is that HMRC also say that this is payment in advance. And where exactly is my interest for lending HMRC money?
@@CristiNeagu On that basis, you earn money from April 2024 to March 2025. You complete your tax return in Jan 26. You then pay HMRC some time after Jan 2026 for the money you earned from April 2024 - nearly two years later?
Entire Tax system is made to harm the disciplined income earner to suffer more. We work hard to get income and Tax is deducted before even we get the money into our account. We have two choices. We can spend everything or save a little ,like we all always encouraged from childhood. Are we going to be rewarded for savings. No ! You be penalised. Whatever you saved and earned as bank interest. Tax system, like an octopus, take y(our) money out of our pocket every way possible!
No. They want you to pay tax on money you have already earned but haven't declared yet. Trouble is because you haven't declared it they have no way of knowing whether you've made more or less than you did the previous year so work on the latest figure they have which is well out of date when they get it.
Still remember when IR35 was introduced..... it was clear to me that the UK had no interest in small business - I was gone from the UK with my used laptop and a couple of suitcases within two years. Got a couple of successful companies now in the US and houses in the mountains and on the beach - whereas in the UK I would still be a cash-cow for the government.
Nice one, what business are you into?
IR35 was an absolutely idiotic and abusive bit of legislation. Imagine this: The problem (according to HMRC, at least) is that *employers* are dodging tax by using contractors instead of employees. So to fix this, we're not going to tax the employer as if he's using employees. No, we'll tax the *contractor* instead, as if he's an employee. So not only does this not solve the issue and the employer is still dodging tax payments, but now you're forcing the contractor to pay those taxes out of his income. The employer pays no extra tax and it is still getting someone that acts like an employee, while the contractor takes an absolutely massive pay cut while not having anything resembling an employee position! Because they don't go and tell the employer "Hey, you're using these contractors as employees, so they should have the same benefits." None of that.
When I started contracting, not having employee benefits such as paid vacation, overtime rates, paid medical leave, health insurance, pension payments, etc, was well worth it given the extra money I was making compared to the average employee. But as HMRC started digging into my income, with IR35 I would have made as much money as a new starter (despite having 5 years of experience, but I would still have absolutely none of the benefits of an employee. How on Earth was this fair.
I reached the same conclusion as you: HMRC is set on destroying any way people find of making a profit. It's just not viable to have a small business.
@@CristiNeaguThe employers weren’t avoiding tax by doing this, they would not have been liable for any tax whether the worker was a contractor or employee, hence going after the “employee”. What the employer was avoiding was National Insurance, and where IR35 is found to have been applicable they have absolutely gone after employers for this, including for previous tax years. In my industry, the desire to become a contractor (usually by starting a limited services company) has been entirely employee driven, to avoid some NI, claim more expenses against tax and, often very dubiously, paying family members inc spouse a salary up to the basic rate tax allowance. I’ve just retired, but as an employer I was very much in favour of HMRC action to shut this down.
Yes it's completely crippling entrepreneurship, and stopping small businesses taking on more employees. So another win for all big established companies.
I remember at the time that the minister that pushed IR35 had a significant personal financial interest in Umbrella Companies. Whole thing seemed so unfair to me. Made my Ltd co untenable in the long run unfortunately. Could have been there to take side work and I would be paying MORE tax on multiple incomes rather than the one I pay now.
UK gov tax policy is so short sighted and destroys entrepreneurialism. Greed in the short term at the cost of destroying growth and sabotaging long term tax revenue. Unfortunately govt ministers rarely think outside of the next 5 years when developing policy as they know they are unlikely to be in post or be held to account for those policies.
Unfortunately govt in the UK has become way too large, some kind of reform needs to take place to cut the number of laws, the amount of spending etc. as well as reign in poorly managed public organisations such as the NHS. If not the UK will have no future and will slowly keep dying and parasitizing the good workers and entrepreneurs to the point where they leave, hastening the UKs inevitable collapse into a 3rd world economy.
The other thing to be aware of is there's a threshold for making payments on account. If your tax bill for the year drops below £1000 you don't make them - but then the next year if you go back above this you have to pay the whole year'sliability, plus 50% payment on account, in January.
You are NEVER paying for money you haven't earned yet - the whole system runs almost a year behind, so the first payment on account in Jan is for income in Apr-Sep of the PREVIOUS year. By this point you probably know if your earnings are significantly lower, and when you submit the SA form you should complete the "Apply to reduce payments on account" section.
Ah yes, that’s a really good point you have made.
And once you have got over the shock at that first year, you will basically be back to a normal cash flow of paying tax every six months ‘up front’ on money you have already earned.
I worked for a millionaire chap in 2008 in London and he told me if I ever opened a business, pay yourself first, staff second, rent of premises and utilities, then the government and council last. Always pay the government last. Even if they say they will fine you. You can always agree a payment plan with them. So, if people are clever, they will do something similar. Rich people do it like this all the time.
He sounds like a typical selfish, greedy, unscrupulous, narcissistic London businessman.
Fortunately most business people I know would prioritise paying staff first as they value those staff & recognise that without them they don't have a business.
I got hit with this the last 2 tax years after going from a trickle of self employment to a real jobs worth, I was broadsided by it as well. Great video raising awareness.
Thanks mate!
Anyone with income that is not PAYE is in the net. This was a measure to increase the tax take for a single year of Government, but of course makes no actual difference in the second year. They can never afford to remove it, whereas it is terrible for the first couple of years to startup small business. Typical Government (treasury) stupidity.
Forcing you to pay tax (in advance) on money you haven't even earnt yet (and might not earn !) sounds like extortion to me. Whether it's "corrected" later on or not, they have still deprived you of your own money, which you might have invested and got a return on or needed for an emergency but now have to borrow elsewhere. To play "Devil's advocate", I guess on the flip side, if you're not paying taxes monthly and are doing an assessment for the past 12 months, the government sees it as you have been holding "their money" for 12 months and now it's "their turn". It is your money being taxed though ! It is your money they are wanting to take off you regardless of when they do it so why shouldn't you pay in arrears ?
Paying taxes on money you haven't even earned yet seems very unfair to me and also very dystopian !
Yeah it definitely came as a shock to me!
Now I know what the rule is, I can plan better for the next assessment. Hopefully I won’t come across another new rule next time 🤞
@tigerblue42 it's not in advance you are paying tax in the uear you earn it (same as those on PAYE). The SA asks you whether you will earn a similar amount in next tax year and if you do, all they say is pay half of the expected tax in jan and the rest on July. If during the year you feel your earnings will drop you log back in and ask for the payment on account to be amended.
@@prash_t I have no "skin in the game" on this one but predicting what you will earn and paying the tax up front sounds like "in advance" to me. 6 months in advance is still "in advance" even if it's paid in the same calendar year.
@tigerblue42 you complete your self-assessment late in the subsequent tax year so you should know what you are likely to earn. Even then you only pay half of what is predicted in Jan of the tax year you earned it. The rest is paid after that tax year in July. If you don't know what you have earnt by then then you need an accountant to help you. There is nothing unfair about this. If you are an employee you pay your tax every month. I would argue that the self employed / those with investment income delay paying their tax. Nothing advanced about this system.
@@prash_t If you're having to predict what you will earn in future and pay tax on it in advance then I see that as unfair. If you disagree then that's absolutely fine.
I am aware of this and always plan for it, however, if you have been caught by surprise, I believe you can challenge the payment on account amount, particularly if you believe that next years income to declare will be less than this year. So you can apply for a reduction.....I'm not sure whether this will apply in your instance. However, it's an important topic to air for those unaware so thanks for putting this out
Thanks mate! Yep I’ve had a look and you can ask for a repayment if you are expecting next tax year to be lower. I also think you can ask to have it spread out over the next tax year by changing your PAYE tax code to adjust the tax you pay each month on your salary.
Now I know about “payments on account” I’ll be more vigilant next time for sure 👍
If you weren't aware of this, make sure you are aware of Making Tax Digital as many people do not know about that. It's going to cause the self-employed and landlords a major upset when it comes in.
You are not paying tax in advance. You are being asked to pay 50% of the amount you should pay (ie the tax on your earnings apr to sep) in jan the follwoing year so you are still paying in arears. You are actually getting four months credit. If you feel the 50% is too much based on your expected earnings you can also speak to the tax office and agree to reduce it, but you could be liable for interest if there is a significant under payment
Good explanation, thanks mate!
@@WhatWorked4Me 40% is theft and paying in advance is absurd: paying to work !!!
Don't do it: get a ltd and give yourself only dividends.
@@misterpizzaman3581can you please explain what you mean? What's a dividend? How does it work please? I'm tired of being so poor because of these annoying rules
You are, in fact, paying tax in advance, for a tax return that will be due in one entire year.
@@misterpizzaman3581 Doesn't work, as far as I know. I had an LTD and paid myself only dividends and had to do the same exact thing. Dividends make it a bit more tax efficient, as you're not paying the extra NI, but you still need to declare dividends on your SA and pay tax on them.
Good video to explain to your customers just why you charge what you charge & how difficult being self employed is hence company rates apply not just an hourly rate! Businesses are there to make profits whereas charities do things at reduced costs or free! I’ve had this in the past payments on account it’s crazy
You can reduce the payment on account if you know you will not being paying as much.
How to ensure your population remains in Poverty.
By asking people to pay their taxes? How? The self-employed would otherwise always be paying tax years after the financial year end while PAYE pay every month.
It's only a problem if your income is likely to go down next year. The upside to self-assessment is you only need to make 2 generally predictable payments a year. And if you're in the 40% tax bracket, well you're fortunate and you get to keep 6000 on every additional 10000 that the average citizen doesn't have.
If you think self-assessment is rough - try being a US Citizen and having to also report everything on an increasingly complicated form 1040, and having to carefully balance what's tax-exempt on one side but not the other.
Sounds rough mate, I’ve heard the US tax rules can be brutal. Don’t envy you there.
The 40% tax bracket and 10,000 additional income is just for illustration purposes to be able to use whole numbers.
Hopefully this video will serve as a warning for people that do not know about this rule 👍
It came out as a shock to me. I had to borrow to pay the tax. I totally understand your situation.
So if you don't earn that expected income for the following year, do you then get a rebate?
It is ridiculous to pre-pay next year. If you owed the tax man that money they'd add 7% interest to your bill.
but when the HMRC owes you money (the tax for next year that hasn't incurred yet), they don't give you back any interest
You are not pre paying - it is still in arears
@Linh-rv5dg I saying the same.
Makes it really difficult to compound your money. And I guess that's the point. (I hate the UK)
They use a similar process in Hong Kong …. Called provisional tax.
I did have a problem with this when I took £60k in dividends one year to fund a property purchase. I was fortunate that my accountant was able to speak with HMRC and reduce my subsequent years payment on accont pointing out the year was an anomaly. If this is the case speak with ypur accountant or hmrc! To be honest a few thpusand is trivial but I'm a lot older so my financial resilience is higher.. That said, you shoyld keep a fifhting fund for emergencies.. Probably 100% of your tax liabilities in hand...
My 20 year old daugyer has had to pay like this. It shouldnt be legal.It is really hard. We shouls start a petition against this...
Yep.. they don't want to wait for a year. They want it as you earn it
Amazing video this has happened to me first year I made income this year I haven’t and hmrc have predicted on the basis that I would still make the same amount but it’s 0. I called them yesterday and they have agreed to reduce the payments. I can’t wait to close the business and forget the whole thing
And while interest rates are relatively high, higher than they have been, don't keep as much in savings.
PAYE pay every month. The self-employed get longer for the first year, but thereafter pay an estimated tax for every 1/2 year albeit 3 months later.
If you expect your 2nd year to have a lower profit, you can tell HMRC and pay less, but the scheme is designed to stop people getting in trouble.
And remember that the tax return is not "due" on the 31st January, but the the 6th April, so this only causes a problem for those that leave their return to the last minute. You can complete the return in say May and still wait to January and July to pay the tax as normal, but it avoids surprises.
To be fair, you're not paying in advance.. we pay tax in January for the period April - April last year, so when they want another 50% thats the period April - September.. it's January! We've had Septembers money for at least 3 months before they're asking for the tax on it.
I think this is just another instance of how it used to be better, but now we're not getting as good of a deal, it seems like we're being shafted. But I think it should have always been like this..
LTD company. Simples. Don't be employed PAYE or be self-employed. Increase your financial education.
On the bright side, by the time you have to pay the tax you have already earned that money.
For those complaining about UK, in Greece you pay 100% upfront. Also, if you have reasonable grounds to expect that your following year's income will be lower, there is a very straightforward facility, within the same web portal, to reduce these upfront payments. This was used extensively during Covid, which disrupt the work of many who were self employed.
Then how on Earth are you supposed to start a company? You haven't even started trading and they want 100% upfront tax payments.
@@CristiNeagu I am trying to remember... but I believe for me this kicked in after the 2nd or maybe even 3rd year of being self employed. Maybe there is a "grace" period, or maybe you have to make a certain level of income before it kicks in.
At any rate, I personally never had a problem with it and when I was out of work due to Covid and personal circumstances it was very hassle free to reduce those payments based on my estimated income.
You can ask for your payments on account to be less if you expect the current year's earnings to be less.
The system is designed so they don't request everything in a single sum. I hate ot like this, but that is the system we have inherited.
Ha! Yes always been the way. In my 3rd year in business I had a really good year. They charged me 18mth of tax then 6mth of tax before July the same year. Killed my cash flow!
You can tell HMRC if you think you will not earn as much next year as this year and they will reduce the amount to pay to what you decide. BUT! If you are wrong they will penalise you by charging you interest on the difference between what you decided and on the actual figures when you do next year’s self assessment. I did this because I stopped renting out a property for last 6 months of the year and knew my tax bill would drop significantly. It does seem unfair paying tax on salary and on something else on account.
They have been doing this for 20 years... Its not new payment on account
You don't have to pay payments on account, I just told them no, I want it gaining interest in my account not theirs. So I only paid the correct amount t of tax for that year.
If it's a one off, you can reduce the payment on account by declaration to HMRC via the SA web site. If however it transpires you haven't paid enough on account you will get charged interest, but it's not a crippler.
They are getting interest on our money.
You are getting interest on their money
This happened to me, hurt so bad that year, put myself on a payment plan
That sucks! I hope all is ok now
The UK has one of the longest and most complex tax books in the world, so many loopholes if you can afford a high end accountant.
I pre paid £10.5k future earning tax but had to close the business as permanently inured (I do work but on payroll now). It’s taken a year to get it back and no they don’t pay the interest lost.
I have suffered this. It is really unclear how you should manage this. What I did was adjust my tax code so to minimise what I had to pay in January and July. I got it close to zero.
I only do a tax return to claim higher rate tax relief payments back to me, so can I expect they’ll give me 150% back in April? 😂😂😂
Wrong, wrong, wrong. You pay tax in arrears. The final bill for end of financial year in April is paid the following January. Nearly 10 months after the end of year. However, there are these 'payments on account' during the year. These are, however, based on money you have already earned, and assumed that your earnings matched last year. As I say, it is payment for money you have already earned, it just has not yet been declared yet. This year lower than last year? No problem- you can tell HMRC that your income has reduced, and pay a lower amount to match. At the end of the year, you fill in your return, and the total extra needed to match your actual earnings becomes due.
Your January bill consists of the final payment for last year, and a third (roughly) of this year (estimated). Given that you are over 9 months into the year, and they want a third (four months worth) this is NOT paying in advance!
NO THIS IS NOT HOW IT WORKS!
The payment on account is for half the tax on the expected earnings for the year: that is not the same as the first half years earnings if your business brings in money right at the end of the tax year.
@@trueriver1950 It is still nearly 10 months into the year, and a payment of six months worth. The missing part is February, March, and five days of April. How many people earn most of their money in those months? And for them, they can ask to pay a lower sum.
"As I say, it is payment for money you have already earned, it just has not yet been declared yet". No it isn't. Its based on the assumption that earnings in the following tax year will be the same as this years. "No problem- you can tell HMRC that your income has reduced, and pay a lower amount to match" You can but that is additional admin and creates otherwise unnecessary work.
@@alanrobertson9790 Most people are in the PAYE system. Meaning that they pay their income tax before receiving any income, on a monthly basis.
The self-employed (etc) do not- they pay in arrears. If there were not a payment on account system, they would not pay for what they earned in April until the January two years hence. Some 21 months later. That would seem somewhat generous to those on PAYE. So there is an interim payment, based on the previous years income. What else would it be based on? It is reasonable accurate for most people (especially as it is 6 months tax 10 months into the year), with a method in place for the few for whom is does not fit.
I was self employed for decades, and found the system increasingly easy to use. Like most people, my income tended to increase over the years, so the interim payments were always behind earnings. Add the other benefits (chargeable expenses, lower NI etc) and I was very content with the system.
@@Tensquaremetreworkshop I am beginning to wonder whether you have done any of this. 1) "Meaning that they pay their income tax before receiving any income, on a monthly basis." They pay the tax at the same time as receiving their income at the end of the month. 2) "The self-employed (etc) do not- they pay in arrears" Self employed can also pay themselves monthly on exactly the same basis via PAYE. The distinction is made for corporation and dividends etc but both self-employed and everyone else pays these at the end of the tax year. The difference depends on the type of income and tax paid not the type of person. 3) "Some 21 months later." Wrong tax paid would never be more than 12 months. 4) "What else would it be based on?" How about calculating what was earnt by the company in the tax year and paying at the end of the year, which everyone else does for all taxes bar PAYE. Isn't a once through system better than iterations and corrections? 5) "I was self employed for decades" well did the accountancy at my limited company for 11 years which is why I find your arguments faulty. The distinction between in advance and in arrears is faulty. This does not explain or justify the different treatments.6) "found the system increasingly easy to use" agreed however if the HMRC makes a mistake they ask you to rereport the already correct numbers.
This is taxing earnings that have not and may not happen. It’s disgusting
I tried asking my clients to pay next year's invoices now, I was told where to go. HMRC are a law unto themselves
This caught me out years ago but I'm sure you can make adjustments on your form and to reduce the POA. So you fill out as normal but there may be somewhere on the form to opt to pay £0 POA. You'll just have to do that yearly I believe. It'll align you back to the 'Calculate>Pay' but I'm no accountant and since then my income structure has changed where most of my income is through my employer and only a small amount now is via freelance work. But I do recall having same issue as you and was blindsided by POA when I was fully freelance. But I'm no finance advisor/accountant, so to anyone reading this, by all means correct me but don't take the advice without further research.
@@leo_hoang thanks so much for the comment! If there is a way to opt out that would be great! I’ll look into that for next time 🙏
@ I just Google’d it and it does say you can contact HMRC to reduce, but I can’t help but feel I remember a page somewhere on their site where I could fill it out… but good luck for next year regarding this… this time of year is always a headache having to file the tax return…
@@leo_hoang. You can make the adjustment of the ‘on account’ payment yourself - including a narrative for your reasons why within the current year’s tax return. It’s really very simple. So, I’m unsure why the OP has been made. He’s highlighting that he hasn’t done his homework on personal taxes when it’s his legal responsibility to ensure he has paid / is paying the correct amount of tax.
I always found this annoying not for the actual money but because it was a needless complication. So much simpler if you just pay what you actually owe them now. It will affect anyone who is self-employed or with a limited company. So its not just the narrator.
Seriously this is bs! Next year they just ask for more! No wonder businesses are leaving
With PAYE, you have to pay tax every month, whereas with self-assessment, it’s months after you have received the income. I wouldn’t say this 50% balancing is particularly unfair.
With PAYE you also have…money coming in every single month…holiday pay…Sickness pay…Bank Holiday pay…Christmas Bonus… Maternity/Paternity pay…
People who are taking risks and trying to build something out of nothing lead a much more perilous and precarious existence where there isn’t a never-ending stream of income to give HMRC a year in advance.
Note 2: always get an accountant to deal with them, and limit said accountant to zero pounds and 1 year in your letter of authority so they can't make any deals on your behalf and if there are mistakes it wasn't you ...
Can you please explain a bit further what you mean?
I got caught with exactly this. Luckily I like to get my tax return done early so I had a few months to save the extra. Paying tax is like wading through treacle. It makes everything such a drag.
Thanks for sharing mate
Just been caught for this aswell ,had 10 years of renting paid tax yearly ,didn't do any improvements and little invoices last year so tax due was above the 1k now paying twice this year for future and past gutted ,I also didn't know this rule 😢
sorry to hear that mate, hope all is ok
I might not be alive next year to earn the assumed income
Yeah, the UK tax system does not reward growth does it? It's particularly hard as your turnover increases each year. Only when your earnings plateau can you start to budget and until then you somehow you have to magic the money from somewhere. You're basically loaning the HMRC your money. I find it helps me to pay them each month by direct debit.
They really don't, it's the opposite. If you grow they just want to take way more and it gets harder the more you grow. There's all these tricks and loopholes the elite use but we don't know what we don't know. So they're fine and they won't fix the loopholes either.
It is not pre-paying next year. In January you will have earned 10 months of that year's income from which the tax is due. Similarly in July you will have earned all 12 months on which that "Payment In Advance" is due. If you were strictly PAYE then this will have automatically happened. Why should you benefit further when others don't?
What are you talking about benefit further? Why are you being such a bellend?
People with fluctuating income cannot afford to pay tax in advance based on an estimation. People under PAYE are on more stable incomes and don't see any of this happening anyway. This happening as someone self employed is shocking and now means you might not actually be able to afford rent because you've just been forced to give away that money. So no breathing room and no planning.
@@MonsterJuiced Thanks for the personal criticism. I shall refrain from similar.
What you seem to be unaware of is the dates and tax years in question. In January 2025 the submission for the tax year ending in April 2024 is due. The person above by the end of January 2025 will already know how much they have earned so far for the tax year ending in April 2025. As such, they should have been setting aside money as it was earned since April 2024 up until January 2025 to pay for this year ending April 2025 tax. As such, it should be easy to determine whether the payment on account is fair or not and, if not, to challenge it. They should already have the money waiting in their accounts from the money they have earned that year.
@NeilHorsburgh right I guess you don't know what it's like when you're waiting 6 months for a company to fulfil an invoice you've spent 2 months prior working on and not receiving any money in that time because "that's just not how they work".
Then you get slapped with an upfront tax payment on top of your previous years when you have no money left because you're not being paid predictably/ monthly.
Atleast having a year's breathing space gives you chance to muster up the funds or know for sure what you're earning and what you can afford.
This is totally unnecessary and just having yearly expectations is the only fair way.
@@MonsterJuiced Your guess is wrong. I have run my own company and worked for others. I am well aware of the joys of chasing invoices.
It is not an upfront tax payment demand. That is where the disconnect is here. The money on which the tax is to be paid has already been paid to the individual by this point. If HMRC has its estimate wrong they are more than happy to change it.
@@NeilHorsburgh It literally is upfront because the tax return isn't due yet! If you're a normal employee they don't pay back any tax before the end of the tax year, they wait until the following year!
As a self employed you're being hit with a future tax bill just because they want the money sooner rather than later. Why you're defending this I have no idea unless you benefit from this somehow. It's disgusting and blatant extortion. You can not know what your tax bill will be until the entire tax year has been fulfilled. This is why it's an estimate and they make you pay based on that.
And to challenge it doesn't help because they instead want the money anyway, and then pay you back a year later. It's wrong and just another example of our stupid country figuring out ways to prevent people from living comfortably.
You are better to have a limited company than self employed to avoid the payments on account if your income is generated via business profits.
As far as I know you still have to do this with a limited company, unless this has changed in the last 3-4 years.
@@CristiNeagu No you submit your corporate tax return 9 months after your business year end and pay any corp tax that you are liable for, there is no payment on account.
@@peterrogers3085 Well, I had to pay 50% tax in advance. How do you explain that?
@@peterrogers3085 You do not take pay out of the corp tax return - this discussion is about personal income either through pay or dividends
Payment on account is actually quarterly for limited companies so even worse.
I think the way I saw it explained to me is you're doing your assessment for the 23/24 tax year. We are now half way through the 24/25 tax year, so in theory, you'd have had half the income already this year.
Not going to say its right, but this is the way I see it
Good point, that's a good way to explain it, thanks
@@WhatWorked4Me yea but even if that's the case, a lot of people won't have any money to spare at that point to pay the upfront extra tax due to fluctuation and uncertainty. It's not fair at all
@@MonsterJuiced It is not uprfont it is 4 months in arrears
@@neilberry7345 It literally isn't you idiot. It's upfront because the tax year hasn't ended and they have to make an estimate based on what they think. How are you this happy to defend the government? Do you love handing over your money to them? Do you benefit in some way from defending them? Who the hell are you to tell me? I don't have the money yet, so it's upfront. If I filed a tax return before the payment, it would be in arrears. Dickhead
@@neilberry7345 @neilberry7345 It literally isn't you idiot. It's upfront because the tax year hasn't ended and they have to make an estimate based on what they think. How are you this happy to defend the government? Do you love handing over your money to them? Do you benefit in some way from defending them? Who the hell are you to tell me? I don't have the money yet, so it's upfront. If I filed a tax return before the payment, it would be in arrears.
Yeah, it's always been like that.
Nope I don’t pay tax in advance as I don’t know what my earnings will be. How can I afford to pay before I’ve earth it. Outrageous and not doing it….
Good luck to HMRC over the next 2 years. Over the next 2 years, most businesses will crash or at least suffer, so this Assumed Tax will be unpayable as cash flow will diminish to such a degree that there will be no cash to actually pay this sum. I know.
There will be problems when small shareholders like me go over the £500 dividend income in one year - never to have it happen again!!
It’s pretty stupid in that you pay tax on income you’ve not earned yet 🙄
You have earned it - you are paying for your current year - you are getting 4 months credit
@@neilberry7345 wrong, some jobs take months and invoices can take even more months to come through.
Different perspectives - the first time you pay 4k, this is in arrears whilst in future you will pay tax in the tax you you earn the money (same as PAYE). Not sure why you are surprised by this as it is clearly illustrated in the final page of the tax calculation
Within the return you can claim a reduction to the 50% ‘on account’ if you anticipate that your income for the next year will be (significantly) less than the current year being assessed.
This is basic stuff.
You haven’t been unlucky. You’ve just not done your homework.
Same just happened to me and caught me surprise.
@@howardsmith8723 sorry to hear that mate. Hope all is ok 🙏
It makes MTD sound rather silly to me.
get a cheap accountant,give all your figures,and thats it. You dont need to get to all the nitty gritty of all TAX
Basically you are giving the government a free loan on money you haven’t actually earns yet. Is that your thoughts ?
I came across something like this in the 90s. I thought is theft
No there was no payment on account in the 90s, came along later
@HiruS22 I was working for myself in the late 90s and had to pay in advance. When I stopped I received a rebate of £5000
It's called daylight robbery
Yup, they do this, and it's a real B45T4RD - you get hammered unexpectedly at the end of January one year, and then when you try to recover from that, they want some more in July. And then forever afterwards, you have a bill a month after the expense of Christmas, and then another one just when you were thinking of taking a summer holiday. Unless you have an unusually prosperous 9+ months, you never really get back on top of things.
Many comments say that you are always paying in arrears, because the final amount is due months after the end of the tax year
It's not quite true, unless you earn about the same in each third of the tax year.
If you only earn at Christmas, the HMRC still expect a third of the tax on your New Year earnings in that year, and that can be before you earn them.
Example: tax year ending 5 Apr 2024
Final payment due Jan 2025 for that year,
Plus 33% payment on account for year ending 5 April 2025.
If the money comes in evenly then you've already earned that money; but if you only sell at Christmas and have to give your customers credit, in Jan 2025 you are still waiting for those invoices to come in, but the Revenue want 33% of the money anyway.
OK this is a niche example, but there are other seasonal businesses that are similarly affected.
Paying half a year's tax a quarter of a year before the end of the year year only puts you ahead in your trade is reasonably uniform over the year, and the effects are not distributed evenly across all businesses.
Let's get something straight: all HMRC is civil, meaning they can't do anything. Second: only a court can issue a fine. Third the tax man is making up its own rules as it goes: 'assume' isn't a law. You need to send a registered letter saying you are experiencing stress and pain due to their duress and unaccaptable unlawful requests and harassement and that people in their organisation will be held personally liable ... then notice how the letter will be signed for without a name (which is unlawful - they have to sign their name) ... and the whole thing will just melt away ...
Don't give them anything: use an LTD, pay yourself dividends up to 19K a year so tax free and nothing else ...
Interesting. I have been harassed by a tax inspector for over 2 years now on why I didn't declare enough income in the same year I was legally shut down by the gov. I am a hotel, the year in question is 22/23. He had still yet to find anything wrong and so keeps going and going. I might try that letter thing. Thanks for the heads up.
Deliberately misleading
This has been around since about 2018 or 2019, something like that. I have two issues with this:
1. When you start doing this, you basically pay 50% more tax. That is huge.
2. This is basically a loan to HMRC, for which they pay no interest. This is extortionate.
In my opinion, it is not up to HMRC to make sure I can pay my taxes. I run my business, I manage my funds, that's my problem, not HMRC's. If they want a say in it, then they can also take up part of the liability. Since they are obviously not going to assume any liability for my business, they shouldn't tell me how to manage my accounts. And demanding an advance payment without interest is absolutely ridiculous.
No you are paying four months in arrears - the 50% is for the money you earned during the first half of the tax year
@@neilberry7345 Nope. I haven't earnt a single penny as far as HMRC are concerned until I submit my tax return. If HMRC want me paying for the first half of the tax year, then they should have me do tax returns bi-annually. Fact is that HMRC also say that this is payment in advance. And where exactly is my interest for lending HMRC money?
@@CristiNeagu On that basis, you earn money from April 2024 to March 2025. You complete your tax return in Jan 26. You then pay HMRC some time after Jan 2026 for the money you earned from April 2024 - nearly two years later?
@@neilberry7345 No, I pay HMRC for the money I earnt after earning it.
Entire Tax system is made to harm the disciplined income earner to suffer more. We work hard to get income and Tax is deducted before even we get the money into our account. We have two choices. We can spend everything or save a little ,like we all always encouraged from childhood. Are we going to be rewarded for savings. No ! You be penalised. Whatever you saved and earned as bank interest. Tax system, like an octopus, take y(our) money out of our pocket every way possible!
So they want you to pay tax on money you have NOT YET earned!😂😂😂
No. They want you to pay tax on money you have already earned but haven't declared yet. Trouble is because you haven't declared it they have no way of knowing whether you've made more or less than you did the previous year so work on the latest figure they have which is well out of date when they get it.