Correction: 2x/3x 240p upscaled content shouldn’t have shimmer. It turns out that all of the upscaled content weren’t giving the RT5X exactly that. I’ve summarised this in Episode 8: The Downscaler Wars ua-cam.com/video/oYxlv3QyrE8/v-deo.html
Not sure if you figured this out since this video was released, but on Street Fighter 30th on Switch you can actually “fix” the vertical shimmer by choosing generic 4:3 horizontal sampling on the Tink 5X and decreasing the image size on the Switch itself to 93%. This seems to allow perfect 720p to 240p, at least on that title. If you leave the sampling at 16:9 the shimmer always remains.
I haven’t gone back to Street Fighter 30th anniversary but that sounds totally correct that it would push the game back to an exact vertical integer scale of the original resolution. I thought I’d tried every setting but nope. Thank you, when I get the RetroTink 4K for an episode of the Downscaling Chronicles then I’ll revisit these scenarios again
The Portta HDMI to Component converter has really been a hit or miss for me. I constantly need to power cycle device to achieve a signal. I wish there was a reliable solution to convert the digital to analog signal. I was hoping the RT4K will solve this issue with its native HDMI input, but it appears you will need a custom modeline which I don't know how to achieve.
That sucks man, I’ve only read good things about the Porta transcoders and have never had that problem. At least these new generation of scalers have HDMI input so it’s only the output that needs transcoding to analog. I’d love to test the RT 4K but it would be insanity to buy one just for downscaling but I understand those that have one predominantly for upscaling and want 15KHz output on the side.
Id imagine a benefit to products like this above all others is that there are active updates and consistent community driven research and development. The bar of entry for me here is set kind of high though. You really do get what you pay for here. Im wondering if the community as a whole made more of a demand for these features if they would be refined or if this is a hat trick of just this model.
Very true, Mike Chi’s ongoing support for the device speaks volumes for what you get when purchasing the Tink 5x’s. I’d be interested how the upcoming Pixel FX Morph handles 15KHz output. From what I’ve read they’ll be developing a specific hardware addon for downscaling, I hope the software has flexibility to cater for all sorts of downscaling scenarios
@@hunterrichert4329 most downscalers have this function. I just haven’t really focused on the topic as I wouldn’t have many use cases. I totally see the appeal to reduce flicker on a high TVL monitor
I think it was the pocket’s vertical integer scale settings as I could downscale the Mister FPGA without shimmer. I haven’t revisited the pocket to re-test integer scaling settings
Thank you for the video. Great as usual.... I don't understand this: "720p is streteched vertically prior to downscaling" Isn't it 3x integer scaling? so what is stretching? I tested the 5x downscaling a couple of years ago, with 240p content upscaled to 720p (Integer scaling) and the downscaled to 240p by the 5x and I couldn't see any shimmering when scrolling. I may test again as I used a very old firmware version. Thank you again!!!
It was confusing me for some time too. That 3x upscale will be 16:9 with black borders on the sides which preserves the aspect ratio on a widescreen display. So if you display, say a circle like at 7:08, this demonstrates how that 3x upscale that’s in 16:9 fits back onto a 4:3 display to fill the height. It could be approached in 2 ways, 1 is this approach which stretches the image vertically, and the other is sort of like a ‘zoom crop’ which will be more of an aspect-preserving way of cutting the black borders on the sides to respect the original height of the 3x upscale when it gets downscaled. The Dexx does the second method as its default 240p downscale, keeping that circle pattern round and the scanlines fell perfectly into place, but it’s in 16:9 with black bars at the top and bottom in the downscale. To get the height filled on the CRT when downscaling on Dexx, you end up stretching vertically exactly as the RT 5x handles it which causes the vertical shimmer. As for why it wasn’t perceived when you tried it, my guess is either downscaling was handled differently in older FW’s, or maybe it was hidden if not playing a vertically scrolling game. If there’s no vertically scrolling or panning, you might be able to see the regular ’bumps’ like I pointed out in TMNT turtles in time. I hope that all makes sense. Thanks for watching!
@@MarcoRetro316 Thank you for your answer. I haven't had the time to check the new 5x firmware, but after revisiting your video, I think the real issue is that the source (720p) is not integer scaling a 240p content. The Turtles game is upscaled from 270p to 720p, if I recall correctly, and the 240p Test Suite is upscaled from 224p to 720p by the Pocket (not sure how). I would test the Pocket with a VGA monitor to see if there is shimmering when outputting 720p, but unfortunately, I sold mine like a year ago. A right and fair test would be downscaling a real 240p content, integer upscaled to 720p (1 line is triplicated). I would use a PC with Retroarch just to be sure instead of using a console game... but well, I never have time for those tests, so thank you for your videos!
@jfroco You might be thinking of TMNT Shredders Revenge which is 270p, I had the scaling bumps on upscaled TMNT Turtles in Time. The Analog Pocket on the 14L5 in native 720p shows perfect integer upscaling but it’s 16:9, so I’m still certain the uneven scale is the vertical stretching of 16:9, rather cropping the black borders on the sides to make it 4:3. The scaler wouldn’t be able to differentiate when it needs to do this though, so if it were possible it would need to be a selectable option. Or like the Dexx, have it output the proper aspect ratio, then delete the 2/3 720 lines. I’ll try to demonstrate this a bit better in the final showdown episode
@@jfroco I just wanted to come back and say you were right that 2x/3x upscale content shouldn’t have shimmer. It turns out the RT5x wasn’t receiving a perfect vertical integer on every source I tried. I’ve got the next episode coming out soon which I’ve addressed this. Thanks for your keen eyes and interest!
Is it possible to connect something like an Analogue Duo or RetroUSB 'AVS' to the 5X pro's HDMI port? Or is that HDMI specifically designed to go out to your TV only? I just want the 5x Pro so i can use it's CRT filters, and possibly use it's component port for an actually SNES & Genesis.
@@NintenPizza unfortunately no, the HDMI port is for output only so you would have to transcode HDMI to component video, and then you would rely on a switcher so you wouldn’t have to keep unplugging from the component port. The OSSC Pro makes the input/output process for downscaling a lot more streamlined
@@MarcoRetro316 I guess this is where the TINK4K comes into play, with it's HDMI In or Out port(s). Seems like it was also designed for HDMI/HD Consoles in mind.
@@Heymisterbadguy they’re referring to outputting 15KHz from a PC to play games like Sonic Mania in their native resolution. It’s not technically downscaling for those games and should be the gold standard for experiencing oddball resolution games like Shredders Revenge in 270p. Although it’s a different approach to play these games and I’d still prefer to play them on the Switch for convenience
Ah I gotcha :) I haven’t put the hardware together yet and by ‘something similar’ I meant Batocera via Linux which should achieve the same thing as CRT Emudriver. Some people in the Batocera scene say that it’s an easier setup
I wanna hook all of my classic mini systems (ps1 / snes / genesis ) to my CRT instead of playing on an HD TV, is there an HDMI to RGB? Or how would that work
Classic/mini consoles output 720p and line decimating works best for restoring 240p. The RetroTink 5x, OSSC Pro and RetroTink 4K will do this best, depending on your budget and if you can also take advantage of the upscaling features may steer you to a particular scaler, my recommendation is the OSSC Pro
Idk why I thought 480p had scanlines as if it were achieved in the same way 240p was on crts lol. So anyway I’ve been interested in testing 240p downscaling with GameCube on a pc crt to see the results
Unfortunately there’s still shimmer in the widescreen as that stretching happens prior to the line drop. But it only occurred to me the other day that my widescreen CRT has a ‘cinema mode’ that stretches everything vertically. So the 16:9 aspect-preserved downscale on the Dexx gets further squished and windows, but then in cinema mode, bam, it’s perfect widescreen 240p. I’ve got to play some more with the Dexx to see if the 2 frames of lag is really bothersome
@@jeb_leeds2928 sweet!! I hope it works well for you and that it has all the 4:3 and 16:9 modes selectable. Btw, have been downscaling the Wii and Xbox for the next video. It works well, but depends how much you like scanlines to go through some hurdles to go from downscaling HDMI to component sources
These will combine HV sync www.ebay.com.au/itm/114489119197?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=bPsiC-xhSsC&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=oXeW_LijToy&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY www.retroupgrades.co.uk/product/vga2scart/
@@MarcoRetro316 certainly i was thinking of one, but wasnt sure at what price cap should i aim. You named 30$, are we talking about no loss of quality option? if so then yes, thats what im looking for.
@@ГригорийБуров-м1ъ I haven’t tried it myself so I can’t vouch for their quality but Lame Gaming recommends it ua-cam.com/video/JypoLDJY91s/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared
Oh yeah, finally made it here, the episode I was waiting on. Curse of the Moon looking fantastic right at the beginning, I just got the Chronicles one, looking forward to playing it. How did you do the shot with the spinning RetroTINK 5X?! Looking forward to the next episodes, this one was great. I will put up with the shimmer for the sake of simplicity, I reckon, but I wonder what else will come down the line.
That Curse of the Moon gameplay was downscaled with the Dexx in its default ‘aspect-preserved’ 16:9 so it’ll be letterboxed on a 4:3 display but the image is precisely divided. Unfortunately the Retrotink 5x goes straight to vertically stretching 16:9 to fit 4:3, and then does the downscale, hence shimmer. As for the spinning shot, I was messing around with trying to get the thing to spin on my palm and I dropped the damn thing. I thought I’d reverse the footage and it turned out pretty sweet
@@MarcoRetro316 Ah, that's a shame then, as like you, my interest lies primarily with downscaling to 16:9 standard CRTs. 16:9 CRTs that can properly display 240p are not common in North America (only one model I ever heard of), so maybe that's why they went with the 4:3 squeeze, I would assume. I'll see how the GBS-C does it then. Good idea on reversing the footage to get a sweet shot, looked pretty dope!
Correction: 2x/3x 240p upscaled content shouldn’t have shimmer. It turns out that all of the upscaled content weren’t giving the RT5X exactly that. I’ve summarised this in Episode 8: The Downscaler Wars
ua-cam.com/video/oYxlv3QyrE8/v-deo.html
Not sure if you figured this out since this video was released, but on Street Fighter 30th on Switch you can actually “fix” the vertical shimmer by choosing generic 4:3 horizontal sampling on the Tink 5X and decreasing the image size on the Switch itself to 93%. This seems to allow perfect 720p to 240p, at least on that title. If you leave the sampling at 16:9 the shimmer always remains.
I haven’t gone back to Street Fighter 30th anniversary but that sounds totally correct that it would push the game back to an exact vertical integer scale of the original resolution. I thought I’d tried every setting but nope. Thank you, when I get the RetroTink 4K for an episode of the Downscaling Chronicles then I’ll revisit these scenarios again
I've got a 5X and was wondering how the downscaling worked. Perfect timing bro.
Words can't describe how much I'm loving this series
Ah I’m glad you’re enjoying them! It’s been fun putting these scaler through their paces and seeing how they tick different boxes
i need good 720 downscaling, would be nice if the same device handled more than that
very interested in a DVDO video
thanks
Words can't describe how much I'm loving this series [2] ♥
The Portta HDMI to Component converter has really been a hit or miss for me. I constantly need to power cycle device to achieve a signal. I wish there was a reliable solution to convert the digital to analog signal. I was hoping the RT4K will solve this issue with its native HDMI input, but it appears you will need a custom modeline which I don't know how to achieve.
That sucks man, I’ve only read good things about the Porta transcoders and have never had that problem. At least these new generation of scalers have HDMI input so it’s only the output that needs transcoding to analog. I’d love to test the RT 4K but it would be insanity to buy one just for downscaling but I understand those that have one predominantly for upscaling and want 15KHz output on the side.
Id imagine a benefit to products like this above all others is that there are active updates and consistent community driven research and development. The bar of entry for me here is set kind of high though. You really do get what you pay for here. Im wondering if the community as a whole made more of a demand for these features if they would be refined or if this is a hat trick of just this model.
Very true, Mike Chi’s ongoing support for the device speaks volumes for what you get when purchasing the Tink 5x’s. I’d be interested how the upcoming Pixel FX Morph handles 15KHz output. From what I’ve read they’ll be developing a specific hardware addon for downscaling, I hope the software has flexibility to cater for all sorts of downscaling scenarios
@MarcoRetro316 480i to 240p would be killer. Deinterlacing is interesting to say the least.
@@hunterrichert4329 most downscalers have this function. I just haven’t really focused on the topic as I wouldn’t have many use cases. I totally see the appeal to reduce flicker on a high TVL monitor
@MarcoRetro316 that's the exact use case scenario. Dreamcast and ps2 on high tvl count pvms.
Hopefully the 480p output from the analogue pocket can be supported in a future update on the tink 5x.
I think it was the pocket’s vertical integer scale settings as I could downscale the Mister FPGA without shimmer. I haven’t revisited the pocket to re-test integer scaling settings
Worked it out, run it into a extron rgb first before the tink 5x. Works great.
@@MarcoRetro316worked it out, run the pocket into a extron rgb first then into the tink 5x.
Thank you for the video. Great as usual.... I don't understand this: "720p is streteched vertically prior to downscaling" Isn't it 3x integer scaling? so what is stretching? I tested the 5x downscaling a couple of years ago, with 240p content upscaled to 720p (Integer scaling) and the downscaled to 240p by the 5x and I couldn't see any shimmering when scrolling. I may test again as I used a very old firmware version. Thank you again!!!
It was confusing me for some time too. That 3x upscale will be 16:9 with black borders on the sides which preserves the aspect ratio on a widescreen display. So if you display, say a circle like at 7:08, this demonstrates how that 3x upscale that’s in 16:9 fits back onto a 4:3 display to fill the height. It could be approached in 2 ways, 1 is this approach which stretches the image vertically, and the other is sort of like a ‘zoom crop’ which will be more of an aspect-preserving way of cutting the black borders on the sides to respect the original height of the 3x upscale when it gets downscaled. The Dexx does the second method as its default 240p downscale, keeping that circle pattern round and the scanlines fell perfectly into place, but it’s in 16:9 with black bars at the top and bottom in the downscale. To get the height filled on the CRT when downscaling on Dexx, you end up stretching vertically exactly as the RT 5x handles it which causes the vertical shimmer. As for why it wasn’t perceived when you tried it, my guess is either downscaling was handled differently in older FW’s, or maybe it was hidden if not playing a vertically scrolling game. If there’s no vertically scrolling or panning, you might be able to see the regular ’bumps’ like I pointed out in TMNT turtles in time. I hope that all makes sense. Thanks for watching!
@@MarcoRetro316 Thank you for your answer. I haven't had the time to check the new 5x firmware, but after revisiting your video, I think the real issue is that the source (720p) is not integer scaling a 240p content. The Turtles game is upscaled from 270p to 720p, if I recall correctly, and the 240p Test Suite is upscaled from 224p to 720p by the Pocket (not sure how). I would test the Pocket with a VGA monitor to see if there is shimmering when outputting 720p, but unfortunately, I sold mine like a year ago. A right and fair test would be downscaling a real 240p content, integer upscaled to 720p (1 line is triplicated). I would use a PC with Retroarch just to be sure instead of using a console game... but well, I never have time for those tests, so thank you for your videos!
@jfroco You might be thinking of TMNT Shredders Revenge which is 270p, I had the scaling bumps on upscaled TMNT Turtles in Time. The Analog Pocket on the 14L5 in native 720p shows perfect integer upscaling but it’s 16:9, so I’m still certain the uneven scale is the vertical stretching of 16:9, rather cropping the black borders on the sides to make it 4:3. The scaler wouldn’t be able to differentiate when it needs to do this though, so if it were possible it would need to be a selectable option. Or like the Dexx, have it output the proper aspect ratio, then delete the 2/3 720 lines. I’ll try to demonstrate this a bit better in the final showdown episode
@@MarcoRetro316 Thank you! Looking forward to your next video.
@@jfroco I just wanted to come back and say you were right that 2x/3x upscale content shouldn’t have shimmer. It turns out the RT5x wasn’t receiving a perfect vertical integer on every source I tried. I’ve got the next episode coming out soon which I’ve addressed this. Thanks for your keen eyes and interest!
Is it possible to connect something like an Analogue Duo or RetroUSB 'AVS' to the 5X pro's HDMI port? Or is that HDMI specifically designed to go out to your TV only? I just want the 5x Pro so i can use it's CRT filters, and possibly use it's component port for an actually SNES & Genesis.
@@NintenPizza unfortunately no, the HDMI port is for output only so you would have to transcode HDMI to component video, and then you would rely on a switcher so you wouldn’t have to keep unplugging from the component port. The OSSC Pro makes the input/output process for downscaling a lot more streamlined
@@MarcoRetro316
I guess this is where the TINK4K comes into play, with it's HDMI In or Out port(s). Seems like it was also designed for HDMI/HD Consoles in mind.
@@NintenPizza yeh the Tink4K is also great for handling virtually all conventional input types
what about ATI CRT EMU 240P output ?
Something very similar is to come in the future, still gathering all the hardware
@@MarcoRetro316240p 120hz on pc monitors? :O
@@Heymisterbadguy they’re referring to outputting 15KHz from a PC to play games like Sonic Mania in their native resolution. It’s not technically downscaling for those games and should be the gold standard for experiencing oddball resolution games like Shredders Revenge in 270p. Although it’s a different approach to play these games and I’d still prefer to play them on the Switch for convenience
@MarcoRetro316 oh yes, but you said something similar so I assumed it would be 240p 120hz :p
Ah I gotcha :) I haven’t put the hardware together yet and by ‘something similar’ I meant Batocera via Linux which should achieve the same thing as CRT Emudriver. Some people in the Batocera scene say that it’s an easier setup
I wanna hook all of my classic mini systems (ps1 / snes / genesis ) to my CRT instead of playing on an HD TV, is there an HDMI to RGB? Or how would that work
Classic/mini consoles output 720p and line decimating works best for restoring 240p. The RetroTink 5x, OSSC Pro and RetroTink 4K will do this best, depending on your budget and if you can also take advantage of the upscaling features may steer you to a particular scaler, my recommendation is the OSSC Pro
Idk why I thought 480p had scanlines as if it were achieved in the same way 240p was on crts lol. So anyway I’ve been interested in testing 240p downscaling with GameCube on a pc crt to see the results
I’d be interested to see if you can get a wii widescreen game running in 240p with the scanlines on your widescreen 480i set , that would be my dream
Unfortunately there’s still shimmer in the widescreen as that stretching happens prior to the line drop. But it only occurred to me the other day that my widescreen CRT has a ‘cinema mode’ that stretches everything vertically. So the 16:9 aspect-preserved downscale on the Dexx gets further squished and windows, but then in cinema mode, bam, it’s perfect widescreen 240p. I’ve got to play some more with the Dexx to see if the 2 frames of lag is really bothersome
@@MarcoRetro316 you’ve inspired me to get an sd widescreen with your videos, getting the jvc one on Thursday !
@@jeb_leeds2928 sweet!! I hope it works well for you and that it has all the 4:3 and 16:9 modes selectable. Btw, have been downscaling the Wii and Xbox for the next video. It works well, but depends how much you like scanlines to go through some hurdles to go from downscaling HDMI to component sources
@@MarcoRetro316 dude I’m loving the series! Great job
Where can i buy such a vga to Scart cable (in europe)?
These will combine HV sync
www.ebay.com.au/itm/114489119197?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=bPsiC-xhSsC&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=oXeW_LijToy&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
www.retroupgrades.co.uk/product/vga2scart/
@@MarcoRetro316 Thank You!
@@MarcoRetro316 Now it works very well with my switch, ty again 🙂. But it dont work with my ps4, any idea wy?
You’d need to run the PS4 through a device that strips HDCP. Usually a cheap powered HDMI splitter can do this
@@MarcoRetro316 love you, ty!. I have so much to learn about retro gaming, crt tv etc.
Are there any alternatives to Portta if the output signal is coming through vga rather than hdmi cable?
You could transcode VGA to component, there’s cheap transcoders on Aliexpress for about $30 AUD
@@MarcoRetro316 certainly i was thinking of one, but wasnt sure at what price cap should i aim. You named 30$, are we talking about no loss of quality option? if so then yes, thats what im looking for.
@@ГригорийБуров-м1ъ I haven’t tried it myself so I can’t vouch for their quality but Lame Gaming recommends it
ua-cam.com/video/JypoLDJY91s/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared
Oh yeah, finally made it here, the episode I was waiting on. Curse of the Moon looking fantastic right at the beginning, I just got the Chronicles one, looking forward to playing it. How did you do the shot with the spinning RetroTINK 5X?! Looking forward to the next episodes, this one was great. I will put up with the shimmer for the sake of simplicity, I reckon, but I wonder what else will come down the line.
That Curse of the Moon gameplay was downscaled with the Dexx in its default ‘aspect-preserved’ 16:9 so it’ll be letterboxed on a 4:3 display but the image is precisely divided. Unfortunately the Retrotink 5x goes straight to vertically stretching 16:9 to fit 4:3, and then does the downscale, hence shimmer. As for the spinning shot, I was messing around with trying to get the thing to spin on my palm and I dropped the damn thing. I thought I’d reverse the footage and it turned out pretty sweet
@@MarcoRetro316 Ah, that's a shame then, as like you, my interest lies primarily with downscaling to 16:9 standard CRTs. 16:9 CRTs that can properly display 240p are not common in North America (only one model I ever heard of), so maybe that's why they went with the 4:3 squeeze, I would assume. I'll see how the GBS-C does it then. Good idea on reversing the footage to get a sweet shot, looked pretty dope!
Noob, why you using alpha to test 240p on dreamcast 3rd strike can boot into 240p mode
I’m well aware and you’ve missed the point of using a game that most are familiar with to demonstrate how well 720p can be ‘restored’ to 240p
so now we want to downscale??? lol what we need is a new companie that will make a new CRT TV 4k
In another universe there’s maybe a 4K CRT…