On the Incarnation or the real meaning of Christmas. Conversation with Russell Jefford & Mark Vernon
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Christmas risks losing its meaning not only because of the commercial frenzy but because of the way it is talked about in churches.
In this conversation, Russell Jefford talks about his discovery of the understanding of the incarnation conveyed in the writings of the early church fathers. They were unknown to him as an evangelical Christian and have refreshed his love of Christianity now.
Together with Mark Vernon, they consider the iconography of the nativity. Why is Jesus born in a cave? Is that a coffin rather than a manger? They consider phrases of three key figues in particular:
St Nazianzus "He who Is, comes into being, and the uncreated is created" (Oration 38.13)
St Irenaeus "He sanctified every age by the resemblance we have with him" (Against Heresies 2.22.4)
St Athanasius "He became man that we might become God" (On the Incarnation 54)
The humanification of God enables the deification of humanity. Salvation is thought of as recapitulation, the divine sanctifying humanity through the various stages of life. The work of atonement is the work of incarnation, as both are manifestations of God, grabbing our attention as to our true nature through the life of the body.
For more on Russell’s work and teaching days see ordinarytheolo...
For more on Mark’s work see www.markvernon...
So much clarity here on such important distinctions where the western church has contracted itself …. Really enjoyed it; much obliged! 🕊️
Lovely! I learned iconography from Vladislav Andreyev (1938-). His school is the Prosopon School of Iconography. You may want to look it up. Gorgeous imagery and profound theology. Just a note about caves…since before Classical Antiquity, caves have been associated with the womb. I believe consideration of that deep archetypal meaning is useful here.
The last two lines of an advent hymn I wrote recently is this:”And each day the time comes from ourselves to depart,
For the Christ-Child is waiting to be born in our heart.
Looking forward to listening to this!😃
The Gospels recorded a historical record and nothing more. Enough with this guff
I have heard the word of wisdom of God sanctifying the human life through Jesus in my protestant church.
I think penal substitution as seen in Luther, is the same seen from another angle.
Jesus, through his life, takes on our sins, actually dresses up in them, and as such makes them non sins, through his personal sinlessness, which we share in. Luther really says all humans are made sinless by Christ through his life. The shorthand for this is the penal substitution story. But the mechanism of it is that through his life Jesus becomes us, I.e. becomes sin.
It is good to talk of these things. But also penal substitution works fine for many people. The main thing is that one knows one is free, by Gods Grace, and not through some moral ascension, which is impossible.
We become free by stopping living for morality, and starting to live for the sake of participating in the love of God towards creation. This is what happens to people when they accept any story of how their sins are taken away. The key is to trust it has happened, not to know how, though that certainly can be important for many to think about.
Excuse me… Prosopon School of Iconology ( not iconography )
Christ is a mushroom.
He who is comes into being and the uncreated is created IN He who is.
This was so interesting Thank you
❤❤❤
Turks arrived in area in 12th century. Annoying; for example for people to say Santa Claus is a Turkish saint?!!
Point taken
@@PlatosPodcastsWhat has this to do with CHRIST? GOD ON EARTH?? Wake up and show some f-kin respect.
Merry Christmas all…
Excuse me for wishing things to be other than what they are but while you were talking, I would’ve loved the picture of the icon you guys are speaking of …
Peace be to all
🦋🕊🌹
Stop the world… My God… Show some respect and stop talking bilge-water. CHRIST is all that matters. Show some respect to your Creator and stop prattling on about a load of old bollocks.
Why is it disrespectful to expound upon the thoughts of the early church?
Only the beautiful down here is Real. But there is deception… bullshit… Real beauty defies all sin and corruption.
If He is Truth then His Bible is as perfect as God wants it to be.
If there are doubts then there are mistakes in His Faith - cracks in the foundations - and NONE of it is real.
But it is provably real - to the believers.
This is why for the enemy they need the cracks so desperately.
Christ is 100% God on Earth - come to lead us home - or else He is a complete fraud.
He came to “divide us against each other” - as He said.
So, as I see it, we must ask ourselves - purely individually - “which side am I facing?”.
There are, as Christ says, only possibly two types of men: those FOR Him, and those against Him.
Everything Christ said is Truth.
All other faiths are counterfeit… False… Manmade or worse.
The only way to the Father in heaven is through the path and Light of Jesus.
This is all that matters. He owns the natural world- and the supernatural… the Invisible.
God is totally supreme except for our free-will and the temporary enemy that prays on our selfish worldly and foolish desires.
This is why we must pay respect - and profound love inside us - just like the power of sunlight that can well within us - will marry perfectly with what shines at us from without.
All God ever gave us was love - a place on His planet - and free-will to do as we please with this incredible existence and spirit of consciousness we call our “Self”.
It is through Him we find the joy of this world to be far greater than any godless man can ever know. Christ is the real deal - by the Light of whom all around us lights up… literally.
God Bless.
Rejoice forever in your increasing blessings like a child! Like an artist… like a real poet - shining for the Gift.
The enemies to God are such a boring “load of old bollocks”… like crap music, you must turn it off… or fall for its allure and message without even knowing that you are becoming obedient to deception… But the allure cannot last. True beauty belongs to God and it never decays…
Believe me from experience - it comes not from drugs or drink or money or physical prowess, fighting, or even women… until you get saved - and then you see all in a sacred light and in perspective.
God is everything and Christ is the only path sent to us for all humans HOME.
Read it and weep.