Lets Talk Spoke Tension | Tech Tuesday
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Can you feel the tension? Calvin and Truman can, but what they really want is to SEE the tension. Using a TM-1 and the Park Tool Wheel Tension App, Calvin and Truman simulate situations one might face when riding to measure and visualize what happens to a wheel while it is in use. It's a learning experience for everyone in this week's TECH TUESDAY!
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Brilliantly explained. Best bike channel hands down. :)
Took me over an hour to explain "the science behind the spokes."
great way to see how the load shifts through the ride, thank you
Really interesting video, it raised my curiosity about seeing how other spoke configurations wheels would behave under these conditions, such as campy g3 rear, shimano 16 spokes wheels, spinergys x, madfibers and some exotic wheels
Gotta say, although I am a longtime devotee of the TM-1, I have recently started using a Wheel Fanatyk digital dial gauge tension meter, and it's a lot more accurate and indicative at higher tensions (100-120 KgF) than my admittedly well-used TM-1 (which may need re-bushing I think). I even built a calibration jig with a 200 kg scale to check accuracy at different tension ranges. I still use the TM-1 for checking over wheels that have been trued or re-dished, but for wheel-building I do most of my checking with the WF gauge. The TM-1 is a little easier to get a quick reading on, but the WF can get you a tabulated tension value with a digital output to a spreadsheet, which saves you a lot of time documenting wheelbuilds.
Yeah, at about three times the cost, or more. Not really a fair comparison…
A guitar pick to check resonance remains the tool of choice for many experienced wheelbuilders to balance tension (though super-low tensions required for carbon rims to prevent nipple pull-through has changed this a bit)
@@herethere2518 good for gauging relative tensions, but not much help with absolutes. With today's wide range of spokes, hubs & rims, it's really, really nice to know absolute values so you can maximize tensions to reduce NDS zero or low tension problems with excessive dish.
Unless you have a spoke tension jig to calibrate tensions to frequency, then you'd be achieving these goals.
when building disc brake rear wheels w/ J-bend spokes,I put the pushing (while riding) spokes on the inside, as pre-disc break I'd put the pulling spokes on the inside of the hub flange.
My spoeks had a good tension a year ago but it doesn't matter now, its in the past tense.
The weaker the rim the more critical it gets with spokes. That's why I only ride high profile carbon rims for the last 10 years (and Sapim spokes)
Yet carbon rims are far weaker at the nipple interface than aluminum rims thereby reducing maximum spoke tension significantly, which most carbon rim manufacturers limit in their wheel-build specifications... (?!?!). Carbon is marketing hype for an environmentally-disastrous material with enormous profit margins!!!
Perhaps oversimplified since this video seems to raise more questions than it answers! How does "proper" spoke tension (via spec) impact these dynamics versus an imperfectly tension-balanced wheel? (better yet how does overall spoke tension impact things in general, high or low? i.e., rim stress/failure & spoke stress/failure). How about different lacing patterns, especially radial (heck, what was the pattern you were discussing?). Different numbers of spokes? Straight vs. traditional L-bend? How about engineered wheels with proprietary spokes/lacing? Or wheels with balanced L/R tension versus those with a wide difference in tension between sides? Impact of nipple washers or spherical nipples? How about spoke diameter or profile? Rim materials/rigidity? Relatively high-tension aluminum rims versus relatively low-tension carbon rims? And perhaps most controversial, ARE RIM BRAKES BETTER FOR WHEEL LONGEVITY THAN DISC BRAKES!?!?!?
Oh man, thats an extra long video. Some of these topics could be multiple 10 minute videos. So, yes there is some simplification going on here to get people to think and understand from a simple experimental perspective. This is by no means meant to be exhaustive. We look forward to putting out more videos on wheels but don't hold your breath waiting, as we all do many other jobs here and have many bike related topics to touch on before going full deep dive.
Just read "The Bicycle Wheel," and virtually all of your questions will be answered. This video wasn't intended to be an all-inclusive treatise on the tension wheel, just a discussion of how spoke tension values change under certain circumstances.
I know this is a year too late but…..
Just purchased a TM-1 and had 2 questions.
1. I get different readings depending if I measure near the nipple or closer to the hub. Should I just always try to hit the middle of the spike.
2. Do you ever check tension as routine maintenance? Or only when you are truing a wheel?
An expesive wheel has tight spokes. A cheap wheel has not so tight spokes. That is why an expensive wheel has a long life. And the opposite with a cheap wheel. Conclusion: It is NOT the pretension of the spoke that will cause a spoke to fracture. It is the LACK of pretension that will cause a spoke to fracture. = fatique fracture. I am a machine engineer, and this lesson is a part of my study. When you design bolted connections you must verify that the bolts will NEVER break. Where is this critical ? A prime example is the bolted connection of the big bearing of a connecting rod in an ice engine. Those bolts are able to last the lifetime of an engine, without ever breaking.
How can I use tensiometer TM-1 with 16” wheels diameter?
The TM-1, and most tensiometers, need about 4" of free spoke to take a measurement. If the wheel has a cross pattern there will not be enough room.
Very useful. Appreciate if you could do an episode on ebike which has a hub motor.
The concept is the same. If you are driving from an internal motor, or from the chain, the stress on the spokes does not change.
Touch my camera through the fence?
do you prefer to ride this chinese carbon steel cheap bike in the future? the "made in china, shipping to the west" system... make your own bike pls.
Good luck with that.
Everyone who's tried to fight globalism has suffered or failed.
Unfortunately, simple economics dictate this model will not prevail. Customers simply want the cheapest consumer goods, at whatever cost that entails. Which at this point appears to be the destruction of the American working class. We've abandoned about half of our population in favor of cheap flat screen TVs.
Bummer, but it's reality.
first
Park Tools might say something about the arcane nomenclature associated with each tool, in order to make the number/naming system appear sensible, which in turn would make each memorable to potential buyers. There must be a naming system, what is it?
Your guys rattle off number names like they naturally make sense, but they make little to no sense to viewers. (I presume the T in TM-1 means tension.) Better yet would be real names, but you can't teach an old bureaucracy new tricks.
Tension meter. I think their naming system is sensible.
@@ThomasMTube I think their naming system makes sense when you know what the tool is. It doesn't make so much sense to me when I'm looking at the names and trying to figure out what the tool is. So, they're helpful in context but not so much in finding context. And, once you know TS is a truing stand, the 3.0 or 4.2 don't offer much help if you don't know the history of their development. But then, I also don' t know what better scheme to use for a flexible/updatable tool "coding" shorthand.
@@ThomasMTube My favorite tool name is the Park Tool FAG-2. It really does tell me all I need to know in such a simple way.
If you think this is bad, try memorizing the Shimano product lines. It's alphabet soup over there.
@@Iosis6 That one came out on April Fools day if I remember correctly. That was a clue. Excellent engineering, quality production, unfortunately just a gag gift at best!
By far one of the most interesting presentations for topic that can be boring if not abstract on its own. If I would be in the States, I would love to take a class with you guys.
Oh man, some crazy crazy shapes there!! Such an awesome and interesting way to demonstrate what a wheel goes through!! Thanks for another amazing video!!
I was aware of the tension cycles during braking and pedaling. That's why I built my fixed rear wheel with 36 spokes, cross 4 pattern, deep section rims, and poly axial nipples, with nipple washers. No wheel dish to weaken 1/2 the spokes. Broken spokes are no fun to replace on the road!
Don't break an elbow patting yourself on the back.
It's not that big of a deal to replace spokes on the road on my front wheel.
@@mark38699 Dt Swiss hubs have a freehub that pulls off without tools. The troglodyte rear wheels I build require tools to change spokes and likely disk brake front wheels do also. Just saying, build a wheel that is up to the task because you already know when it will fail. Away from help!
@@johnsmith1474 In retrospect, I resemble that remark! Many wheels don't have enough spokes for us heavier non elite athletes! More spokes often equal longer wheel life as well. I have race wheels with fewer spokes also, but not for everyday.
Love this. Awesome
Is there such a thing as an acceptable 'normal' average tension for the spokes in a basic 26" or 27" bike wheel with (say) 1.8mm steel spokes? Would 100kgf be too high? Would 55kgf be too low? What's a good figure to aim for? 75kgf, maybe?
I'm not thinking about a super-high performance wheel that's going to be used by a pro rider and rebuilt every day; just an ordinary bike doing ordinary mileage, and set up for durability rather than peak performance.
Very cool take on wheel dynamics! Another interesting phenomenon to add is the effect that tubeless tires have on spoke tension...
Why would this impact spoke tension at all????
@@herethere2518 Same as with standard inner tubes: when you have a tire locked onto the rim and you then proceed to pump it up, you now have a high level of air pressure compressing on the rim simultaneously from all sides. When you inflate a tire on the rim to rideable pressures, you always tend to lose a bit of spoke tension all around the wheel. It’s one of those dynamic forces you don’t automatically think about. 🙂 My guess is that with tubeless, you will have a similar effect, but to a lesser degree, since you can and often will ride with much lower tire pressures.
Calvin, Truman.....I absolutely love this presentation!!
Awesome videos. Love your content!
Btw. my TM-1 was a guesstimeter. When measuring the same spoke at the same spot multiple times I got a deviation of about 20% worst case. Im sorry, but this tool is useless like so. I sold it and going by ear now. The DT Swiss tool is not worth it yet for me for my usecase. Hope you can develop a better one.
Have a great day
So when it comes down to it, how often should a wheel be checked and adjusted on a touring bike, and does it make a difference on number of spokes/wheel and terrain I'm riding? Also loaded/unloaded bike miles as well a age of spokes. Love your how to videos, they've helped me a lot in maintaining my bike. Over the years i've yet found a trustworthy bike shop as they keep swapping out techs and only seem interested in the quick in/out money. The last Trek store I was at looking for a replacement 36 spoke wheel sold me a 32 spoke. I didn't realize it until months later, my own fault I should have counted them at the store. I've been sold wheels that the spokes or nipples would break one a month in the past for my road bike. No longer trust any bike shop.
Honestly, as often as you think you may have a problem. It's easy enough to see if a wheel needs truing. You don't even have to take it out of the bike. Just spin the wheel and sight down the tire. If it appears to wobble, then it needs truing, and if it needs truing all that often without obvious reason, then you probably need to check tension and make sure it is up to wheel manufacturer spec.
Personally, I tension the spokes any time I put the wheel on the truing stand, which is once before each riding season, and then any time I notice an issue.
Why are there two rings one your tension charts? It seem like you measured each spoke just one time. Confusing.
Right ? moto bic & motocross ?WHAT ?
Y Know everything???
Thank you Park Tool for all your excellent tools and super informative videos. AWESOME....
older guy only, solo show. His are best!
this is incredible. really shows how much is going on
That was fun and interesting
Great presentation guys!!
I watched a video and it said do the outside cross 1st and then twist the way of rotating. Is this right ? Or is it better to cross outside backwards for braking forces
No difference.
This was wheely good.
Nice work on this! Built up a personal rear wheel to 5% variance using this tool the other day. Will definitely be pushing this video to our guys at Erik’s!
Hey my wheel made gthe goggles penguin last weekend.
We collect the money hahaha...love you guys
I hope one of you see this comment and respond but I have a very important question. Considering metal materials are not designed to have changes in tension and that is why they fatigue (for example if you go outside of the elasticity range of steel) or (aluminum just fatigues from existing), should we only make spokes out of materials that stretch over time instead?
The steel spokes do not go outside their elastic limit. The spokes do not "stretch" permanently. This is a good thing because this provides a pulling load to keep the rim straight. You do not want stretching over time.
@@parktool So then what is your opinion on the idea of plastic spokes like BERD spokes where they stretch over time and need adjusting? Do you feel this design is not the future or spokes? (I don't know if you guys are allowed to comment about products or not)
Thanks guys, very informative 👍
My spokes sticking out of the nipple thread by 3mm. Am I doomed? 291 instead of 289. I could only see it in the hole and not exactly measure the part sticking out.
Some sticking out is not uncommon. If the wheel is tight, and the spoke ends do not contact the rim tape, you should be fine. Some rims are quite narrow however and too long of spoke can work into the tape and cause a flat.
You just made me feel better! More than enough clearance on a Spank 395. I only measured tension by sound of spoke like a Harp then dished using floor tiles and measuring tape lol! I just bought a tensioner and somehow got good balanced readings with some minor adjustments done.
You guys are the best! Learned a lot from you guys! Quality content with the best explanations! Thank you so much!@@parktool
I love the challenge of a good build. New spokes, good un-abused used spokes, recycled rims & hubs. If I get it tight & right, especially if it is hi-dish? I feel great! And I sob when I pretzel a rim, or misjudge bad used spokes as good ones. I will never know it all.....
fascinating.thx.
You guys are awesome!
Very nice presentation!
It would be fun to compare hub wind-up spoke tension increases between different bikes & riders.
I do remember Jobst Brandt saying that the rider didn't add much tension to a wheel's spokes under normal conditions. Yes, we all WISH we were monsters and adding all sorts of load to our spokes. Nope.
BUT... there are exceptions. The highest torque loads are applied by two strong riders climbing a steep hill on a mountain tandem. With ultra low gearing, and no front end lift or rear wheel slip, the mountain tandem is BRUTAL on rear hubs, specifically their freehub bodies. AS someone who's blown up six hubs, I feel pretty confident that we put out some pretty serious power and torque on the rear hub. Splitting a Phil Wood tandem hub in half was our crowning achievement! (Thanks Slicrock Trail! Ultimate traction!) Now make that an electric mountain tandem and all bets are off! Bye bye hubs & cassettes!!!
So it would be cool to put spoke strain gauges on the whole wheels of all bikes to see tension changes in real time during a ride over varying conditions.
Pfff beautiful video
Fascinating stuff. I wonder how the forces change between a carbon and aluminum MTB wheelset. I am about to try carbon and keep hearing that carbon wheels hold true better than aluminum due to less flexing and thus less stress on the spokes.
My friend's front spokes are making some sounds while riding. Quiet sounds, but audible. The wheel is true. I was wondering if there is a way to adjust the spokes so they dont make any noise while riding?
Typically that is a sign of low overall tension. Add tension to the entire wheel.
@@parktool I did it and it worked! My friend is so pleased to have a quiet ride now
Question ❓
Can you have perfect true and round wheel - yet tension is uneven ???
Would you bring the loose spokes closer to other even tension spokes ???
It is normal to have some variation. Rims are not perfect, and also have internal stress from being bent into a circle at the factory. If it is a wheel that have seen some use and impact, very uneven tension is an indicator of bent metal in that area. On a new or undamaged wheel, it is possible to do some "tension balancing" where the loose spoke is tighten but other ones loosened to keep the wheel adequately true.
@@parktool thanks for reply - new rim old spokes , and another new hub ,new spokes and rim.
Buenas se me revento la parte # 1962 -1961 del brazo prs25 parktool
Thank you, I love you guys. So full of energy and fun, but also you explained it in a really good way and the visual explanation just made it click in my head.
I came here because I want to be able to do my own wheel maintenence on my 36 inch unicycle, which has to take a lot of stress.
Hello Bonjour Eixcellent Calvin and friend Thank you ✌😁
Wonderful humane introduction to what could have been geeky and dry. One aspect that might have been added would be the additional spoke load added when dishing the wheel.
Very interesting. I wonder how this same test would look on the Berd Wheels with the string spokes. Thanks for sharing.
I imagine it would be comparable to tension readings but visually, a 0-tension piece of string will be shocking.
We would assume it to look and act the same as far as charts are readings go. a slack piece of string will be quite fun, to Raimonds point.
You instigated me to look that product up, it appears to be a very interesting gimmick. Less aero, far more expensive, and only slightly lighter/stronger. No good for road bikes.
@@johnsmith1474Smith Not sure about road bikes. I see that they get rave reviews from everyone that's tried them on youtube. You are right, on the expensive part.
Tension is tension assuming minimal elasticity as required for high-tensile rigidity, regardless of materials. Resonance is a different story though...
This is absolutely my favorite video so far. Thanks so much!
Far and away the best explanation (and demonstration) of wheel dynamics I’ve ever seen!
Just out of curiosity; would the tension profile for braking with rim brakes look kind of like the stationary floor diagram, just at about the 45 degree forward position?
Good question. Braking loads from a rim brake are transmitted through the hoop to the tire patch on the ground. Spokes just support the hub, and the tension does not change.
TM1, WT, WTF, I love these guys!!
An excellent explanation. Thank you
This is Art
Excellent, thanks.
interesting. this seems like a 2 person job? ...is there a way for just one person to get these readings?
Hard for one person to apply the stress and also take the readings. Might be possible.
Fascinating!
Fantastic!
Great video.
Most excellent. Love it!!!
Great analysis!
Is that tension measuring tool good for blade spokes? Wouldn't it give different results based on angle it is applied?
With a bladed spoke, keep the tool must be kept square to the flat part.
@@parktool Thank you 👍
Esses cara são top ✌️
Shout out 😅
tall guy is a bit creepy.
Thanks for the education! Where else can you learn stuff like this, 100% brill.
Important to remember that these tools can only aid a wheel builder, if you can't build a wheel then no amount of tech will help the process
Building the wheel is easy, truing is the skill
This is as childishly presented as Sesame Street, perhaps these two should get into animal costumes.
ua-cam.com/video/mvsguKyQmis/v-deo.html
Come on dude, where's your sense of humor! Sometimes when something goes wrong with a bike on the road these guys in funny costumes could have some solutions!
“A rim is only perfect on the truing stand.” This axiom has given me so much peace and accept when a rim is “in spec” rather than chase the dragon.
Weird coincidence that I’m currently building a set of wheels for an All City frame using the same astral blue Gravel Kings right now, and started wondering what the limits of spoke tension are