The part of Kira's character I found most profound was how she maintained her faith, not just through the horrors of the Occupation, but through her interactions with the secular Federation. Her late-season interactions where she told Sisko that, as much as he was a friend, he was _also_ a religious figure to her; and then her providing spiritual guidance to Winn in the final arc... Ira Behr's "Season 8" had her becoming "Vedek Kira," which honestly just felt *so right* for her arc.
I'd add, she kept her faith even after learning that some of her religion's leaders were awful people. I've know more than a few who start out believing the leaders of their religion are all saints, and leave when this turns out not to be true.
Kira was definitely the most complex character - here in the UK, we were still experiencing the troubles during DS9's first run, so having her as a terrorist made me think a very young me a lot about that complex situation too. When you're literally living in a country being bombed by terrorists & you're shown a self declared terrorist in a sympathetic light at the same time, it gets very... complicated.
I hope I don't offend you but I mean... can you blame the Irish for what they did? Violence is unfortunate and it cuts both ways. They felt occupied and oppressed and some of them fought back. I can hardly blame them for that. Same as Palestine today. I'm extremely ignorant on this issue tho, so , I'm just curious, is it all well and good there now or are there still sort of political tensions between Britain and the two Irish countries (or are they one country with two different names)??
@@Krill_all_health_insuranceCEOs something we learn from DS9's conflicts between Bajorans and Cardassians is that there can be good and bad people on both sides. And there can even be good people doing bad things (Odo acting as gestapo) and bad people doing good things (Garak refusing to participate in atrocities). The IRA planting bombs near pubs and bus stations to kill civilians was decidedly a bad thing, regardless of whether the people personally doing it were good or bad.
@@Krill_all_health_insuranceCEOs i think your 1st question best reflects all Steve is saying about Kira. Change any of the names & chances are you'll lean 1 way or the other with regards to acts of terrorism (a freedom fighter is another persons terrorist). To answer your question as a UK resident no but i understand why. I wish it didnt have to happen but also understand the lack of options (edited for slippery fingers)
@@afaultytoaster yeah fair point. It's not always simple & black and white. It's easy to say resistance fighters = good and the occupiers = bad. No doubt. And I agree if the IRA did those things I would have a very difficult time defending that. I'm not sure I could justify masses of innocent people being killed no matter the political point or the plight of those doing it. I don't think formless t∆rrorism can ever be justified. Certainly people have the right to resist by almost any means necessary but randomly killing masses of unaffiliated persons AKA civilians? There's got to be a line somewhere I would think. Targeting political or military targets sure, but random civilian infrastructure? I don't think that's acceptable, no matter the justness of the cause of those doing it. Just like State governments have a moral obligation to minimize any civilian casualties during wartime (which I don't really know if any ever have so far in world history but in my value system that's supposed to be number one rule of war), resistance groups should likewise do so. I couldn't possibly defend an ideology that says all's fair in wartime (or resistance); anybody at any time can be a target. I can't agree with that and I don't want to and I don't want any group to accept that kind of ideology even if they feel that it's justified under their circumstances. Having said that I do justify what happened on October 7th given the long history of occupation by group One towards group Two, I think we both know which groups I'm referring to, simply because the information I have is that the targets were primarily military but certain uninvolved non-combatant civilian deaths were unavoidable. Whether this is 100% true or not I have no way of knowing from my random nobody position out here but this is what I've heard from sources I feel are being genuine. ...... Either way violence is a shame and I think we're a long ways off from having a world with no ongoing conflicts. If that's what we want then world leaders need to change NOW and well, that's not going to happen in our lifetime. But who knows maybe we'll get a little closer to that over the next 50 years, that sure would be nice.
What happened to all the group ones that were living in the countries most of the group twos came from? What rights did they have before their property was stolen and they were expelled from, or killed, in these group two countries? The region in question was just a sleepy backwater of the Ottoman Empire with no nation states and a nominal population because very few saw any value in this area; how did such a sparsely occupied area become develop such a sizable population of group two? What happens when anyone from group two tries to go back to their family’s country of origin? What are their legal rights in the country in question as opposed to group one’s rights in any group two country of origin? Group two says that they not only want to eliminate the country in question, but every person of group one’s religion (genocide). Group one does not call for the genocide of group two.
In my opinion, Duet really set the stage quite well for where Kira ended up at the end of the series. I don't know that you could have Kira aiding the Cardassian Resistance without her showing that first sign of sympathy for poor powerless Aamin Marritza. And btw major props to Harris Yulin for his portrayal of the character. Some of the most excellent work done for a one off character.
Tbh i think it is the singular best episode in the whole goddamn franchise.This one and The drumhead from TNG are to me the most direct yet morally complex episodes.
Another great example of her complexity is the episodes, I believe at the end of the fifth season, when the Dominion recaptures Deep Space Nine at the start of the Dominion War, and Kira remains aboard the station as liaison officer, as a result of Bajor's non-aggression pact with the Dominion. She tries to respect the wishes of Sisko and the Bajorin government by working directly with Dukat and the Dominion to maintain the peace. It takes the suicide protest of a holy woman to make her see she became a collaborator without realizing it.
Yep, Steve could easily have included these episodes also. This reinforces his point about her being a complicated hero. Good to see the DS9 writers could at rare times stop torturing O'Brien and torture Kira instead!
What got me in that episode was Kira’s morning routine. After the suicide she wakes up, sees herself in the mirror… and she hates herself. Sometimes simple is the most effective.
My grandpa was a freedom fighter during the Nazi occupation of Norway. He died when I was very young, as those experiences took an enormous toll on him. DS9 came on just as I was becoming an adult, and at that time, I know it may be corny to some here, but it helped me understand some of the complexities of his situation.
I think Nans Visitor and the DS9 stunt crew deserve credit for Kira's fight scenes, they were very well executed and many of them still bold up today. I'm sure Nana's dance background helped in this regard.
The Gul Darheel episode is powerful but what always hits me hard in the Kira stories is when she accepts a Cardassian as a father figure. Her emotions both before and after she realizes she will lose him are so impactful when you contextualize them with her past.
"Duet" is hands down, my favorite episode of that show. Bottle episodes like that can often be some of the most amazing examples of acting on the part of the cast. Stripping away all of the special effects, all the technobabble, all the more campy but fun elements of the franchise. And just distilling the episode down to a face to face performance, by a pair of actors, who are giving it their all, in a story with deep emotional pain, anger, and sadness. I love how Kira's mood and reaction to the Cardassian changes multiple times, as she learns new info, has her position questioned, learns the real twist, etc. Just such an amazing performance, from both of them. That episode is also where I first started really paying attention to what DS 9 was trying to do. How it was planting it's flag on being a show, willing to make some very dark, and emotionally moving stories. And that it had the room to do that, by having a stationary location for the stories. To let them gain roots, and flourish. Prior to Duet, Kira was just "Angry 2nd in Command" trope to me. But Duet gave me a lot more clarity on WHY she is that way. Fantastic work
A badass who carries a lot of burdens in her heart. I wasn't a big fan of her character in the beginning, but grew to love her as her character developed! Visitor is a terrific actress who portrays her with so much depth and passion!
There's a good argument to be made for Quark if you ask me. His religiously rooted misogyny is at constant odds with the strong, skilled and competent women from all walks of life around him. His capitalism is contrasted by the socialism of the station's custodians. His cautious self-preservation is repeatedly tested, to the point where on the few occasions he's taken a life on the show, he's visibly shaken by it afterwards. His conscience is always fighting to make him do the right thing, even when the rest of him resists. In a lot of ways, he's the same archetypal character as Worf and Kira. There we go, that's my case for Quark being a complex and complicated hero.
I think my high school teacher who taught analysis of drama would be pleased with your write-up. (Not that our suburban HS would have let her teach that, it started a theater class where we were supposed to put on a school play, but that "mysteriously" fell through, and she "just happened" to put that depressing course together as a mid quarter-replacement in no-time. Yes, I am still sore about that years later because I had the theatre bug and had won one of the lead roles until it didn't happen.)
Whilst everyone hates the episode, i think Move along Home is a good episode at showing that Quark isnt a complete scumbag early on. He gets into the game the aliens make him play but as soon as he finds out the pieces are the senior staff he breaks down and pleads with them to spare them. Before that one would assume hes just like the TNG Ferengi and wouldnt give a second thought to kill someone in pursuit of profit. There is also the time he kills the Jem Hadar to break out Rom, Leeta, Kira and Jake where he appears to be in complete shock after doing so.
@@MrRattlebones640 I never got why people hated Move Along Home. I don't necessarily think it's good, but to me it was always firmly in harmlessly silly, but not actually bad territory.
the Ferengi are really the "Hero" species in DS9- great exploration and expansion of them as a people and as individuals.Love Quark(and Aarmin Shimerman!!)
As someone from a country who owes its independence in part to terrorism and has a complex history with the subject to this day, I really appreciate that Kira never flinches away from what she did. She almost insists on the label "terrorist" instead of the neater, safer "freedom fighter" and while she might regret some of the specific actions she took part in, she fully understands that terrorism as a strategy was the only way to win Bajor's freedom. It's an actual example of Star Trek writing with nuance, compared to, say The High Ground which for all its controversy over daring to mention the IRA was a very milquetoast analysis of terrorism in the end.
Kira is my favourite DS9 character, and an under-appreciated one imo. She is also an exemplar of how to write a “strong female character” - not just because she is a woman who fights and leads, but because she is the driving force in her own story, she has her own internal and external conflict that is compelling independently of that of the male characters, and simply, she is written as an interesting character first and a “strong female character” second. This quality is surprisingly rare in TV, especially when you consider how simple it is and how complicated media makes writing female characters sound.
There's a simple question that can (in a lot of circumstances) tell the difference: "Is this character's gender the most interesting thing about them? Is it the ONLY interesting thing about them?" If the answer is "yes," that character will almost always be a failure, whether they're a damsel or a badass.
Kira's my favourite character in my favourite Trek series. Nana Visitor gave us so many shades of Kira over the course of the show. What a great actress, what a compelling character.
I do feel an unspoken but pretty obvious part of Wrongs Darker than Death or Night is that Gul Dukat was grooming and indirectly threatening Maru. Like, the Bajoran 'comfort women' were sex slaves, even if they were given nice quarters and abundant food. If she turned down Gul Dukat, she'd be tossed back to those 'handsy' Cardassian officers who wouldn't take no for an answer. And as Gul Dukat's mistress, she'd have some autonomy over sex (or at least the illusion of it, I don't really see coerced consent as consent), and the opportunity to help her family. Her choice was certainly understandable.
Yeah I thought that was a weakness of the episode. I think they should have had a scene where Kira confronts her mother over living a life of luxury while her people are dying and starving and her mother just breaks down crying saying she doesn't have a choice, she doesn't want to be Dukat's consort but she's making this sacrifice so her husband and children can live. Instead the episode makes it seem like she's a naive idiot who thinks Dukat actually wants a consensual relationship with her. Maybe we're supposed to connect those dots ourselves but the show does everything it can to make it seem like we shouldn't.
That's true, but to a greater or lesser extent, this is true of all forms of collaboration, certain threats are made, certain rewards are offered. I have NO clue how you judge how much culpability each individual has. Should you have chosen your own death, your own torture, the death or torture of your spouse, your children, your village?
Kira is my favorite character from Trek in general. Her willingness to throw everything behind seemingly lost causes and win has inspired me since I was a child.
In 2002, maybe not. But remember RDM's _Battlestar Galactica_ and _Caprica_ featured *all sorts* of sympathetic terrorists, with the occupation of New Caprica being a *direct allegory* for the US occupation of Afghanistan and two of the protagonists of _Caprica_ being, essentially, 9/11 hijackers (and absolutely religious extremists).
Except for the characters that were allowed after 911 that bore some resemblance to her. The show Homeland is about a man turned terrorist, a Muslim terrorist no less. Who only fails to decapitate the US government because a distressed call from his daughter causes him to flinch. The show Strike Back has several complex terrorist characters including a man who turns against the western world with the sympathetic motivation of empowering the long exploited Africa. And there are others, you people really should expand your media consumption beyond soft scifi and comics. @sloanekuria3249
Kira is by far my favourite in all of trek. I'm glad you highlighted the end of Duet. The 'No, it's not!' she comes out with at the end feels like it's a spontaneous reaction followed by a moment of profound self realisation on Kira's part.
DUET was the episode where I realized DS9 would become my favorite Star Trek show (and it still is). I start crying when Maritza's "Gul Darheel" facade collapses into shame and utter wretched anguish over Cardassia's atrocities, and continue thru Kira's "No, it's not!".... every damn time.
Thank you for drawing the parallel between the Bajoran occupation and the occupation in G-za. Seeing the story from Kira's perspective allows you to sympathize with her, despite all of the terrible things she's known to have done. She's a perfect example of what a person can become when they've lived their entire life under a brutal occupation.
Kira is a good example of how terrorists become terrorists. Not through some inexplicable desire to kill people, but through a lifetime of oppression and desperation.
Your comment shows how Star Trek, and yourself I guess is, as progressive as it can be, the fruit of a dominant, oppressive culture. People like Kira never call themselves terrorists, as she did in DS9. They call themselves freedom fighters, resistants etc… But never terrorists, even when they choose terrorists methods. Nelson Mandela and people fighting against the apartheid in South Africa didn’t call themselves terrorists. Western powers did. And Mandela’s speech during Rivonia trial is one of the best way to understand the difference.
very true in some cases, although there are other factors like religious extremism. this applies of course to Palestine and Israel but also to the US and other middle eastern countries.
@@samwisegamgee6532It blows people's minds when I tell them that Nelson Mandella was described by the CIA as a radical Communist terrorist! Which is technically true based only on his actions as head of the armed wing of the ANC. But it leaves out a whole lot of very important details.
@@samwisegamgee6532 Actually, for the longest time, plenty did, before it was made into a dirty word. And indeed nowadays plenty of people happily accept the epithet as a mark of pride, because "terrorist" is always the smear used for anyone who fights against oppression.
@@samwisegamgee6532 Actually, for the longest time, plenty did, before it was made into a dirty word. And indeed nowadays plenty of people happily accept the epithet as a mark of pride, because "terrorist" is always the smear used for anyone who fights against oppression.
Kira is smart and pragmatic enough to recognize that if she simply refused to participate in Bajor's reconstruction, it would just proceed without her being able to have any input. At least by participating, as distasteful as it might be at times, Kira can help influence the process in the way she thinks is best. She may not get what she wants all, or even most of the time, but the compromises she is able to occasionally force are better than nothing at all. Kinda feels like a lesson that would benefit certain politicians these days...
This is what all politicians eventually learn- you don't get everything you want most of the time, so you have to live with what you do get. IMO this is similar to TV shows and movies- everyone has to compromise on their vision because the final result is a collaborative one.
German dude here. During the thousand years between 1933 and 1945, my grandfather was head teacher in an elementary school in a small town and lived in the school house with his wife, five children, and a maid. He had a stiff leg from an injury he received as a soldier in WWI. He was a pious Roman Catholic and no Nazi, at all. One day, he was called into town hall to talk to the Nazi mayor. There he was told that because of his injury he wasn't fit to be a teacher any longer, but if he were a member of the NSDAP, nobody could remove him from his job.
Regardless of what his grandfather’s answer was I think his point was that most people would have accepted the offer because that’s what it was at the time, just a national political party. Who wouldn’t have accepted that?
Kira is even complicated on the dynamic levels of her personality (you know, like a real person) -She’s brilliant at war, but terrible at art -She’s conservative (small c) in regards to religion and general social morals, but not cloistered or xenophobic or even afraid of social changes -She can be the angriest most deadly person you’ve ever met, but also quick with a laugh and kindness to those in need or whoever she considers friends (in later episodes that even begrudgingly includes Quark) Kira Nerys and Benjamin Sisko are from the jump are the most fully realized characters on the show in roles that lesser shows could have easily made 2D tropes (angry lady and beleaguered guy just trying to make a bad situation work)
I'm still making my way through DS9 for the first time, and Kira and Odo are my favorites. The whole cast is incredible, this is already my favorite Trek. Kira is the best. Her portrayal of someone who grew up under trauma is incredibly well done most of the time, and it's really really good.
She has an amazing arc. I think one of my favorite Kira moments is when she stood in the shadows at the end of season 7 watching Garak and Damar start the Cardassian resistance on the streets of Cardassia. It must have truly been a powerful full circle moment for her. For all the Cardassians she killed. In the end she helped them save their world, face the truth about their past, and find a new path.
I was in my early teens, I think, when I first saw DS9. Kira really stood out to me. She was so unlike any female character I had ever seen before. That first scene between her and Sisko was amazing. Huge respect for Nana for bringing her to life.
Yeah, someone who spent their young adult time savagely fighting against her planet being ruled by a powerful external Cardassian empire isn't automatically going to see the powerful, external Federation empire ruling a space station near her home as something wonderful. The strength of her character is that she's willing to learn and change when this learning is contrary to her previous experience. IRL, few people do this.
That scene is amazing. Kira, as much as she wants Bajor to be able to stand free on its own, knows damned well that in the galaxy as it is, Bajor has zero chance of defending itself from invasion from the Cardassians or any other large hostile power. Intellectually, she knows that having the Federation there is the best way for Bajor to remain free, but she’s going to be damned sure that it’s not going to be a repeat of the Cardassians slithering in and taking over. Ms. Visitor put an amazing amount of nuance into that rant.
I have long maintained that Harris Yulin's performance as Marritza was THE best one-off guest star role in trek. I've heard folks say it's Tom Wright, but the rollercoaster Yulin takes you on is a staggering.
Kira's mother wasnt a collaborator. She came to realize she was doing this for her family not herself. She was a sex slave modeled after "comfort women" during ww2 and other wars.
Hate that episode so much. The writers literally had the actual answer right in front of them when Kira’s mom says why should she keep fighting Dukat if that won’t help her or her family? And she’s absolutely right. And yet the writers still condemn her. It’s very “if you’re not a perfect victim, you’re not a victim”
Kira's complexity doesn't only or primarily come from the her perfidious past, but from her antagonistic role in the present. Obviously the former is connected to the latter, but the tension created by the latter is how her complexity impacts the plot of those episodes discussed in this video. Thanks yet again to Steve for these ST reviews.
The Meru episode is a great episode for contrasting collaborators but I'm surprised you didn't use the one where Kira realized she was a collaborator under the Dominion and had to face the disgust she felt in herself for it.
Yes! Rocks and Shoals. Kira’s realization after the Vedek’s ‘protest’ is one of the most powerful moments in all of DS9 for me; and it was only the B plot!
One of my favourite things about Kira is how she never turned into a bigot. It would've been so easy for her to just hate all Cardassians because they're Cardassian. But, as we see with Marritza and Ghemor, she doesn't let what a state and certain individuals change who she is: A good person who did bad things out of necessity.
When I was a kid watching ds9, I still remember how unique it felt to see a character like Kira on tv. Seeing someone, especially a female character, being able to express such a level of complexity felt so impactful to me!
:) One of the best Star Trek Characters. So many times Major Kira had to bite her tongue and walk away and never was able to catch a break. Such a good character and actress.
One of my favorite things, is when Damar is questioning who could give the orders to kill a resistance fighter's family when that family had nothing to do with the resistance, and Kira reminds him that he and those he worked for did the same thing, and it makes him uncomfortable, because he knows she's right, but doesn't like it.
Kira is a real one , true ride or die You need grimey soldiers like that in your corner Necessary Evil is so shocking but it made me enjoy her as character a helluva lot more
The thing about having trouble wrapping your head around this kind of complexity is that even Kira can't really wrap her head around it either. That's the way it is for a lot of people in her situation. My grandma was a resistance fighter in WWII Guam. When studying the Bible, she was able to quit her addictions to smoking, alcohol, and Marines cold turkey. But the trauma of the war and some of the things that she saw and helped with never left her.
“maybe killing a chemist collaborator can’t quell your compassion for Kira, but consider…” - I had to go back and listen to that again! Very nicely put!
Damar, Garak, Sisko, Nog, Rom, Odo... even Quark. There are some very complex heroes on DS9, but the argument for Kira being at the top of the list is an easy one to understand.
Definitely! And don't forget the serial killer in Dax and the sex pestery and PUA energy of Julian. A lot of rich characters with dangerous, even evil elements in the background.
What I find interesting about Duet is that it's like the play and subsequent movie The Man in the Glass Booth except better. (I have also enjoyed what I take to be the moral of the Kira-Odo relationship, "Crabby people need love too.") Always happy to see a focus on Kira.
It was directly inspired by "The Man in the Glass Booth," which makes it sadly ironic¹ that Steve is so able to draw the parallel here between the Bajor and Gaza. ¹FITTING but ironic-as a (minimally-practicing) Jew I stand in solidarity with Jonathan Glazer.
Granted I don’t have a magic time stone to grapple with this stuff, but when you do some research on your military family with 200-ish year in the Deep South, it’s kind of a kick in the teeth if you’re approach it in a way that doesn’t try to sugar-coat your forebears. Like these people maybe have been good parents, grandparents, etc, but it doesn’t make their acts any less monstrous, and the harm they’ve done, any less real to not just generations past, but even people still alive today.
When I researched my family history I wasn't sure for a while which side my ancestors possibly fought on. Though it looks like my father would have been one of the few who actually served in the military at any point.
Kira is one of the best characters ever written for Star Trek and I would even argue for Television. One of the things I love so much about her character is her relationship with her religion. In the episode "Starship Down", Kira, after trying to keep Sisko awake by telling him stories after he suffers a serious concussion, eventually breaks and begs him not to die because he's the Emissary of the Prophets and there's so much he still has to do. She admits that she reveres him and acknowledges she knows that makes him uncomfortable, but that's how she sees him. She's so scared and vulnerable but after a moment, she begins praying. The look of fear drains and it is replaced by a calm, peaceful, hopeful air to her. That is a beautiful representation of how her religion gives her strength. The writers did such a good job showing how religion can be a source of hope and strength for people in Kira, but also the opposite in the form of Wynn (don't even get me started on her!). Most see Kira as a former resistance fighter and rebel, which is true, however she is also a deeply spiritual woman who is not afraid to stand her ground. I absolutely love her character!
So Marritza made a real Darhe'el turn, eh? [Confession, Steve: I'm not a wrestling fan. I actually kinda hate it. I only knew about the Dusty Rhodes promo because you riffed on it in your Writers Strike video. But I'm struggling with major depression (colonel depression in the final season) and your shout out was a real shot in the arm. So thanks. (I think I just broke kayfabe.)]
Incredible character. I'm surprised it took this long to have an episode about her. The Darkness and the Light was a meaningful episode for me, as you can see.
When it comes to collaborators/working with for the Cardassians I think it's worth considering the degrees to which a person did aid in the occupation itself. The chemist in question was an informant of Gul Dukat, where as her mother didn't choose to help Dukat and doesn't act against Bajorans. I guess the scenario with her mother is much like Maritza in that regards.
I think Nana Visitor's background as someone who did a lot of work in comedy and Broadway musicals helped her, create a round character. She wasn't afraid to play comedy in a serious role (and even sing on camera).
I wonder if she talked to female officers in developing the Kira character or if it all came from the actress's own experience as a mid-career professional woman?
Love DS9 Content - Kira is one of the most underrated characters in all of Trek, and the strongest first officer in the franchise imo (and I *loved* Riker as a kid).
Meru's supposed collaboration wasn't being a comfort woman; it was defending Dukat as "not such a bad guy" and trying to convince Kira not to kill him. I would argue she's still not guilty given the extremely narrow list of options she had and the psychological effects of captivity and repeated rape. But it's important to get the nuance. Kira isn't mad her mother was a comfort woman, Kira is mad she made the best of it.
I've got the theory that since Deep Space Nine hit in the 'teen' Star Trek seasons, where we start really getting into the nuanced "grey moralities' where we start questioning "Is this how it should be?" and "Is the Federation right?" here... and the seven years of it sets things up for the "We're On Our Own" Voyager time of college / university.
I really love this concept. It aligns so well with the themes of those shows, and even works for some modern Trek representing adulthood and relatively broad (but not necessarily universal) adult experiences: confronting our trauma (Discovery), wondering about our legacy (Picard), and guiding the next generation (Prodigy).
My father really wanted me to watch Picard season 1 when it came out. I was too busy. He kept asking if I had seen it. I saw it the week after my father died, and immediately realised why he had wanted me to watch it. It is difficult to put the feelings into words. My father was in his 70s, was looking down the barrel of his own mortality, was recently widowed, pandemic left him alone...I got it. I regret not watching it sooner as it was like my dad was trying to convey a message or a feeling. I know Picard is termite but I have a deep love for season 1 for capturing a feeling
Man thats what I love about DS9 and why I think it's one of the best pieces of television ever. All the characters feel like real, well-rounded, morally complex people. Almost no-one is unequivocally a hero. They're almost all villains to someone.
One thing I always feel the need to point out about Duet, and part of why it's one of my favorite episodes, is that the rest of the series proves Marritza at least partially right. I don't know that his execution would have actually forced cardassian to confront its guilt, as he says it would, but he is right that Cardassia doing so would have been not only right but necessary for cardassia to survive. Cardassia never confronts what happened, and in pursuing its gilded past it turns to Dukat, then the Dominion, and the series ends with Cardassia Prime in ruins.
But with a glimmer of redemption and rebirth once Damar acknowledged that their past was filled with wrongs, and led a crusade towards a different world.
Awesome video as usual. I really enjoy your thematic and character analysis videos. They make me think about characters, series, and ideas in a new ways, and I love that. Even when I initially disagree with points or ideas you share, I find myself examining my own thoughts. I’m almost always able to better explain and support my own thoughts, I incorporate some form of yours into an evolved version of my own, or, on occasion, I change my mind entirely. This is true of your politics and wrestling videos as well. I don’t even watch wrestling and I enjoy the way you discuss the topic.
Kira IMO is the face of Bajorans race as much as Spock is the face of the Vulcans. I'm agnostic, but her faith in the prophets I find most impressive. Her faith isn't ignored by her "gods" and so much so that she was chosen to be her vessel during the reckoning. Her initial distrust of the Federation is understandable because they hardly did anything to free them due to the Prime Directive. She went from hating all Cardassians to having one of them (Ziyal) be like a daughter to her as well as another (Tekeny Ghemor) be like a father to her. Hell, she would grow some respect for Garek. She had a good character arch.
Steve, I'm an old school TOS fan. Spock is my favorite character of all time, and during my son's childhood we watched TNG together. I can't say that I have a favorite character in that, but eventually I liked the way several members of the cast worked together. I remember when DS9 premiered but I never really gave it a chance back then. I don't know why exactly, but I think it's because at the time I didn't care for the Ferengi, nor did I think I would have enjoyed a futuristic TV show about a stationary space station, even though now my opinion is different. I just want to say that because of you and your channel I finally and recently started watching DS9 for the first time in my life. I started last month and I'm currently on season 4, which started out with a bang! I have to say that the characters have grown on me, and I have a few favorites, including Odo, Garak, and even Quark! I've laughed out loud with several episodes, and I've cried with others---"The Visitor" being one of them of course, and the episode with Kira called "Second Skin" as well. I guess there was a part of me that cried when I saw the relationship between Kira and the Cardassian man that thought she was his daughter. I'm a sucker for father/daughter topics like that since I lost my own when I was 9 years old (cancer sucks!)... The other reason I cried is because I think it's amazing seeing people from two different worlds, races, or species come together. We live in such crappy times now with Americans as well as people from all over the world being pitted against each other for ridiculous reasons. Watching Star Trek and seeing something like that gives me hope. So I just really want to say thank you. I may even give some other shows a shot later on down the road. 😁❤
Duet was hard to watch, especially in the final scenes, seeing Maritza break down. Kira was always my favourite Trek character because of her complexity and depth, I found her inspirational. I still do.
Kira is one of my favorite Star Trek characters. Like you, DS9 is my favorite series. This was an awesome video. Although, your voiceover conversations are a bit different than I remember from the show. 😂
The way they explore some very complex themes in a time that was one or two generations removed from Ww I I is one of the reasons I love DSG so much. More than that Kira is an interesting character. BUt her moral compass and sense of humour makes her endearing.
I'm finally getting around to listening to this. Your commentary on "Duet" reminded me in a way of Oskar Gruening's trial. Again, it seems that DS9 was well ahead of its time.
I love Kira. So much. And my love for her has only grown as I've gone from early twenties and still feeling like a child, to my mid thirties ( now ) and being exhausted all the goddamn time because *I care* and *caring is exhausting when the problems that face the people you love and care about cannot be fixed with violence and WILL be made worse by lashing out.* I feel like if I sat down and told Kira my life story, she'd be just as angry as me, but also have the compassion to hold me as I cried in fustration about it all. And thats who I try to be when my friends need someone to talk to- someone who WILL express rage when a friend has been mistreated and give that friend a safe place to be exhausted before they have to jump back into the fray. I love Kira, and the fact that she is a person who has lived in violence and is still Doing Her Best, and Struggles With That Sometimes, makes me feel stronger in my own life of Trying To My Best after all the shit I've been through.
In "Duet" I think we see an example of a true patriot. Marritza loves Cardassia. Not blindly adores, genuinely loves. Because he sees the wrong they have done and wants Cardassia to atone for it, to be *better.* When people say "my country, right or wrong", they're forgetting the other half of that quote: if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. Marritza wanted to set Cardassia right. Because he loved Cardassia, more than Dukat could ever dream of.
Kira has always been my favorite DS9 character. A large part of that is due to her complexity and her complicated nature. Nana Visitor portrays her with such emotion. I remember being in tears as an 8th grader watching "Duet". I felt for Kira and her genuine sorrow at the end of the episode. My parents didn't get why I was crying over TV, but for me, especially at that time of my life, Trek was my sanity and safe place, and gods, did I want to be like Kira. Seeing her negative qualities along with her positive ones, and seeing that she could have done so much that people would consider wrong and still be considered one of "the good guys" was an eye-opener for young teen me. DS9 is full of characters I looked up to and found comfort in, but Kira was always the one I wanted to be like.
Sure, Kira's the only one who killed someone because they caught her burglarising their place of business, but Sisko's the only one who made an entire planet uninhabitable due to a grudge. Tomato, tomato.
THANK YOU for making a distinction between "complex" and "complicated." I've been making the case for YEARS that "complex" means that something has multiple layers simultaneously visible, while "complicated" is more akin to a Rube Goldberg machine. The synonym for "complex" is not "complicated." It's "concise." The synonym for "complicated" is not "complex." It's "unwieldy." "Complex" usually has a positive connotation and "complicated" tends to have a negative connotation.
A bit of a nitpick, but concise would be the opposite of complex.. Concise would be brief and to the point, complex wouldn't be brief or to the point. Like in a nice-friendly StarTrek fan-kinda way, I'm not meaning to be a dick whatsoever.
As an Italian, I have no problem with Kira's actions. Many Italians turned into freedom fighters to fight the Nazi and the Fascists during WWII. It wasn't always morally spotless but they did the right and necessary thing.
Ds9 did a lot for television storytelling. Same with Babylon 5. Yeah. The characters in DS-9 are super good. They really worked to develop the characters that needed it the most. Heck! even the cartoon villains of the dominion get some mild hints at a larger backstory with some unexpected development. Good vid. Per usual. Thanks for being here
The part of Kira's character I found most profound was how she maintained her faith, not just through the horrors of the Occupation, but through her interactions with the secular Federation. Her late-season interactions where she told Sisko that, as much as he was a friend, he was _also_ a religious figure to her; and then her providing spiritual guidance to Winn in the final arc... Ira Behr's "Season 8" had her becoming "Vedek Kira," which honestly just felt *so right* for her arc.
I'd add, she kept her faith even after learning that some of her religion's leaders were awful people. I've know more than a few who start out believing the leaders of their religion are all saints, and leave when this turns out not to be true.
Kira was definitely the most complex character - here in the UK, we were still experiencing the troubles during DS9's first run, so having her as a terrorist made me think a very young me a lot about that complex situation too. When you're literally living in a country being bombed by terrorists & you're shown a self declared terrorist in a sympathetic light at the same time, it gets very... complicated.
I hope I don't offend you but I mean... can you blame the Irish for what they did? Violence is unfortunate and it cuts both ways. They felt occupied and oppressed and some of them fought back. I can hardly blame them for that. Same as Palestine today.
I'm extremely ignorant on this issue tho, so , I'm just curious, is it all well and good there now or are there still sort of political tensions between Britain and the two Irish countries (or are they one country with two different names)??
@@Krill_all_health_insuranceCEOs something we learn from DS9's conflicts between Bajorans and Cardassians is that there can be good and bad people on both sides. And there can even be good people doing bad things (Odo acting as gestapo) and bad people doing good things (Garak refusing to participate in atrocities).
The IRA planting bombs near pubs and bus stations to kill civilians was decidedly a bad thing, regardless of whether the people personally doing it were good or bad.
@@Krill_all_health_insuranceCEOs i think your 1st question best reflects all Steve is saying about Kira. Change any of the names & chances are you'll lean 1 way or the other with regards to acts of terrorism (a freedom fighter is another persons terrorist). To answer your question as a UK resident no but i understand why. I wish it didnt have to happen but also understand the lack of options (edited for slippery fingers)
@@afaultytoaster yeah fair point. It's not always simple & black and white. It's easy to say resistance fighters = good and the occupiers = bad. No doubt. And I agree if the IRA did those things I would have a very difficult time defending that. I'm not sure I could justify masses of innocent people being killed no matter the political point or the plight of those doing it. I don't think formless t∆rrorism can ever be justified. Certainly people have the right to resist by almost any means necessary but randomly killing masses of unaffiliated persons AKA civilians? There's got to be a line somewhere I would think. Targeting political or military targets sure, but random civilian infrastructure? I don't think that's acceptable, no matter the justness of the cause of those doing it. Just like State governments have a moral obligation to minimize any civilian casualties during wartime (which I don't really know if any ever have so far in world history but in my value system that's supposed to be number one rule of war), resistance groups should likewise do so. I couldn't possibly defend an ideology that says all's fair in wartime (or resistance); anybody at any time can be a target. I can't agree with that and I don't want to and I don't want any group to accept that kind of ideology even if they feel that it's justified under their circumstances.
Having said that I do justify what happened on October 7th given the long history of occupation by group One towards group Two, I think we both know which groups I'm referring to, simply because the information I have is that the targets were primarily military but certain uninvolved non-combatant civilian deaths were unavoidable. Whether this is 100% true or not I have no way of knowing from my random nobody position out here but this is what I've heard from sources I feel are being genuine. ...... Either way violence is a shame and I think we're a long ways off from having a world with no ongoing conflicts. If that's what we want then world leaders need to change NOW and well, that's not going to happen in our lifetime. But who knows maybe we'll get a little closer to that over the next 50 years, that sure would be nice.
What happened to all the group ones that were living in the countries most of the group twos came from? What rights did they have before their property was stolen and they were expelled from, or killed, in these group two countries?
The region in question was just a sleepy backwater of the Ottoman Empire with no nation states and a nominal population because very few saw any value in this area; how did such a sparsely occupied area become develop such a sizable population of group two? What happens when anyone from group two tries to go back to their family’s country of origin? What are their legal rights in the country in question as opposed to group one’s rights in any group two country of origin?
Group two says that they not only want to eliminate the country in question, but every person of group one’s religion (genocide). Group one does not call for the genocide of group two.
In my opinion, Duet really set the stage quite well for where Kira ended up at the end of the series.
I don't know that you could have Kira aiding the Cardassian Resistance without her showing that first sign of sympathy for poor powerless Aamin Marritza.
And btw major props to Harris Yulin for his portrayal of the character. Some of the most excellent work done for a one off character.
yes, a memorable performance, Yulin had a real presence in that episode
IMO, Duet is the best of season 1 and Yulin is the reason why. He chews scenery more than Sisko without going camp.
Tbh i think it is the singular best episode in the whole goddamn franchise.This one and The drumhead from TNG are to me the most direct yet morally complex episodes.
Duet is why I stuck with DS9. I wasn't feeling it yet, and planned to at least finish season 2 before making judgement. Duet ended all my doubts.
also kudos to the way the character and the backstory were written
Another great example of her complexity is the episodes, I believe at the end of the fifth season, when the Dominion recaptures Deep Space Nine at the start of the Dominion War, and Kira remains aboard the station as liaison officer, as a result of Bajor's non-aggression pact with the Dominion. She tries to respect the wishes of Sisko and the Bajorin government by working directly with Dukat and the Dominion to maintain the peace. It takes the suicide protest of a holy woman to make her see she became a collaborator without realizing it.
Yep, Steve could easily have included these episodes also. This reinforces his point about her being a complicated hero. Good to see the DS9 writers could at rare times stop torturing O'Brien and torture Kira instead!
What got me in that episode was Kira’s morning routine. After the suicide she wakes up, sees herself in the mirror… and she hates herself.
Sometimes simple is the most effective.
My grandpa was a freedom fighter during the Nazi occupation of Norway. He died when I was very young, as those experiences took an enormous toll on him.
DS9 came on just as I was becoming an adult, and at that time, I know it may be corny to some here, but it helped me understand some of the complexities of his situation.
I think Nans Visitor and the DS9 stunt crew deserve credit for Kira's fight scenes, they were very well executed and many of them still bold up today. I'm sure Nana's dance background helped in this regard.
The Gul Darheel episode is powerful but what always hits me hard in the Kira stories is when she accepts a Cardassian as a father figure. Her emotions both before and after she realizes she will lose him are so impactful when you contextualize them with her past.
"Duet" is hands down, my favorite episode of that show. Bottle episodes like that can often be some of the most amazing examples of acting on the part of the cast. Stripping away all of the special effects, all the technobabble, all the more campy but fun elements of the franchise. And just distilling the episode down to a face to face performance, by a pair of actors, who are giving it their all, in a story with deep emotional pain, anger, and sadness. I love how Kira's mood and reaction to the Cardassian changes multiple times, as she learns new info, has her position questioned, learns the real twist, etc. Just such an amazing performance, from both of them.
That episode is also where I first started really paying attention to what DS 9 was trying to do. How it was planting it's flag on being a show, willing to make some very dark, and emotionally moving stories. And that it had the room to do that, by having a stationary location for the stories. To let them gain roots, and flourish. Prior to Duet, Kira was just "Angry 2nd in Command" trope to me. But Duet gave me a lot more clarity on WHY she is that way. Fantastic work
But it is probably easier to crank out episodes with "splosions," ships fighting, a babe of the week and some technobabble.
Duet also required great scriptwriter(s) so the actors had great material to be great with.
Kira's probably one of my favourite DS9 characters, she's such a badass.
Same!
Watching DS9 as a kid, I was infatuated with Jadzia (and Ezri). As an adult, I'm *in love* with Kira.
A badass who carries a lot of burdens in her heart. I wasn't a big fan of her character in the beginning, but grew to love her as her character developed! Visitor is a terrific actress who portrays her with so much depth and passion!
There's a good argument to be made for Quark if you ask me.
His religiously rooted misogyny is at constant odds with the strong, skilled and competent women from all walks of life around him.
His capitalism is contrasted by the socialism of the station's custodians.
His cautious self-preservation is repeatedly tested, to the point where on the few occasions he's taken a life on the show, he's visibly shaken by it afterwards.
His conscience is always fighting to make him do the right thing, even when the rest of him resists.
In a lot of ways, he's the same archetypal character as Worf and Kira.
There we go, that's my case for Quark being a complex and complicated hero.
I think my high school teacher who taught analysis of drama would be pleased with your write-up.
(Not that our suburban HS would have let her teach that, it started a theater class where we were supposed to put on a school play, but that "mysteriously" fell through, and she "just happened" to put that depressing course together as a mid quarter-replacement in no-time. Yes, I am still sore about that years later because I had the theatre bug and had won one of the lead roles until it didn't happen.)
Whilst everyone hates the episode, i think Move along Home is a good episode at showing that Quark isnt a complete scumbag early on. He gets into the game the aliens make him play but as soon as he finds out the pieces are the senior staff he breaks down and pleads with them to spare them. Before that one would assume hes just like the TNG Ferengi and wouldnt give a second thought to kill someone in pursuit of profit.
There is also the time he kills the Jem Hadar to break out Rom, Leeta, Kira and Jake where he appears to be in complete shock after doing so.
@@MrRattlebones640 I never got why people hated Move Along Home. I don't necessarily think it's good, but to me it was always firmly in harmlessly silly, but not actually bad territory.
the Ferengi are really the "Hero" species in DS9- great exploration and expansion of them as a people and as individuals.Love Quark(and Aarmin Shimerman!!)
I second this so much!!@@MrRattlebones640 it's a fun episode (very TNG in tone to me) but great character episode for Quark.
As someone from a country who owes its independence in part to terrorism and has a complex history with the subject to this day, I really appreciate that Kira never flinches away from what she did. She almost insists on the label "terrorist" instead of the neater, safer "freedom fighter" and while she might regret some of the specific actions she took part in, she fully understands that terrorism as a strategy was the only way to win Bajor's freedom. It's an actual example of Star Trek writing with nuance, compared to, say The High Ground which for all its controversy over daring to mention the IRA was a very milquetoast analysis of terrorism in the end.
Kira is my favourite DS9 character, and an under-appreciated one imo. She is also an exemplar of how to write a “strong female character” - not just because she is a woman who fights and leads, but because she is the driving force in her own story, she has her own internal and external conflict that is compelling independently of that of the male characters, and simply, she is written as an interesting character first and a “strong female character” second. This quality is surprisingly rare in TV, especially when you consider how simple it is and how complicated media makes writing female characters sound.
There's a simple question that can (in a lot of circumstances) tell the difference: "Is this character's gender the most interesting thing about them? Is it the ONLY interesting thing about them?"
If the answer is "yes," that character will almost always be a failure, whether they're a damsel or a badass.
Marritza pulled a Gul Da'heel turn?
I love how Steve's backdrop shifts his usual room in to a Starship.
then took Gul Da'face turn.
Duet is my favorite single episode of Star Trek. It's a testament to just how good DS9 was that a first season episode managed to do that.
Kira's my favourite character in my favourite Trek series. Nana Visitor gave us so many shades of Kira over the course of the show. What a great actress, what a compelling character.
Nana is the best!
I do feel an unspoken but pretty obvious part of Wrongs Darker than Death or Night is that Gul Dukat was grooming and indirectly threatening Maru. Like, the Bajoran 'comfort women' were sex slaves, even if they were given nice quarters and abundant food. If she turned down Gul Dukat, she'd be tossed back to those 'handsy' Cardassian officers who wouldn't take no for an answer. And as Gul Dukat's mistress, she'd have some autonomy over sex (or at least the illusion of it, I don't really see coerced consent as consent), and the opportunity to help her family. Her choice was certainly understandable.
Yeah I thought that was a weakness of the episode. I think they should have had a scene where Kira confronts her mother over living a life of luxury while her people are dying and starving and her mother just breaks down crying saying she doesn't have a choice, she doesn't want to be Dukat's consort but she's making this sacrifice so her husband and children can live. Instead the episode makes it seem like she's a naive idiot who thinks Dukat actually wants a consensual relationship with her. Maybe we're supposed to connect those dots ourselves but the show does everything it can to make it seem like we shouldn't.
That's true, but to a greater or lesser extent, this is true of all forms of collaboration, certain threats are made, certain rewards are offered. I have NO clue how you judge how much culpability each individual has. Should you have chosen your own death, your own torture, the death or torture of your spouse, your children, your village?
Kira is my favorite character from Trek in general. Her willingness to throw everything behind seemingly lost causes and win has inspired me since I was a child.
Kira would never have been conceived after 911. Amazing, complicated character.
Allowed. Kira would never have been allowed after 911. We've been sick for so long.
What are ya both on about?? Kira has nothing has nothing to do with Porsche 911 creation!!!haha
In 2002, maybe not. But remember RDM's _Battlestar Galactica_ and _Caprica_ featured *all sorts* of sympathetic terrorists, with the occupation of New Caprica being a *direct allegory* for the US occupation of Afghanistan and two of the protagonists of _Caprica_ being, essentially, 9/11 hijackers (and absolutely religious extremists).
Nah.. she just wouldn't have snuck past ass holes who think money is their god and money is allergic to truthful portrayals of anything.
Except for the characters that were allowed after 911 that bore some resemblance to her.
The show Homeland is about a man turned terrorist, a Muslim terrorist no less. Who only fails to decapitate the US government because a distressed call from his daughter causes him to flinch. The show Strike Back has several complex terrorist characters including a man who turns against the western world with the sympathetic motivation of empowering the long exploited Africa.
And there are others, you people really should expand your media consumption beyond soft scifi and comics.
@sloanekuria3249
Harris Yulin's performance in Duet is outstanding. One of the best in all of Trek.
Great actor. Also loved him in Ghostbusters II
Kira is by far my favourite in all of trek. I'm glad you highlighted the end of Duet. The 'No, it's not!' she comes out with at the end feels like it's a spontaneous reaction followed by a moment of profound self realisation on Kira's part.
DUET was the episode where I realized DS9 would become my favorite Star Trek show (and it still is). I start crying when Maritza's "Gul Darheel" facade collapses into shame and utter wretched anguish over Cardassia's atrocities, and continue thru Kira's "No, it's not!".... every damn time.
Thank you for drawing the parallel between the Bajoran occupation and the occupation in G-za. Seeing the story from Kira's perspective allows you to sympathize with her, despite all of the terrible things she's known to have done. She's a perfect example of what a person can become when they've lived their entire life under a brutal occupation.
Kira is a good example of how terrorists become terrorists. Not through some inexplicable desire to kill people, but through a lifetime of oppression and desperation.
Your comment shows how Star Trek, and yourself I guess is, as progressive as it can be, the fruit of a dominant, oppressive culture.
People like Kira never call themselves terrorists, as she did in DS9. They call themselves freedom fighters, resistants etc…
But never terrorists, even when they choose terrorists methods.
Nelson Mandela and people fighting against the apartheid in South Africa didn’t call themselves terrorists.
Western powers did.
And Mandela’s speech during Rivonia trial is one of the best way to understand the difference.
very true in some cases, although there are other factors like religious extremism. this applies of course to Palestine and Israel but also to the US and other middle eastern countries.
@@samwisegamgee6532It blows people's minds when I tell them that Nelson Mandella was described by the CIA as a radical Communist terrorist! Which is technically true based only on his actions as head of the armed wing of the ANC. But it leaves out a whole lot of very important details.
@@samwisegamgee6532 Actually, for the longest time, plenty did, before it was made into a dirty word. And indeed nowadays plenty of people happily accept the epithet as a mark of pride, because "terrorist" is always the smear used for anyone who fights against oppression.
@@samwisegamgee6532 Actually, for the longest time, plenty did, before it was made into a dirty word. And indeed nowadays plenty of people happily accept the epithet as a mark of pride, because "terrorist" is always the smear used for anyone who fights against oppression.
Kira is smart and pragmatic enough to recognize that if she simply refused to participate in Bajor's reconstruction, it would just proceed without her being able to have any input. At least by participating, as distasteful as it might be at times, Kira can help influence the process in the way she thinks is best. She may not get what she wants all, or even most of the time, but the compromises she is able to occasionally force are better than nothing at all. Kinda feels like a lesson that would benefit certain politicians these days...
This is what all politicians eventually learn- you don't get everything you want most of the time, so you have to live with what you do get. IMO this is similar to TV shows and movies- everyone has to compromise on their vision because the final result is a collaborative one.
I love Steve...
But I have a feeling he will refuse to recognize how this does apply to him and far too many Progressive Voices today.
German dude here. During the thousand years between 1933 and 1945, my grandfather was head teacher in an elementary school in a small town and lived in the school house with his wife, five children, and a maid. He had a stiff leg from an injury he received as a soldier in WWI. He was a pious Roman Catholic and no Nazi, at all. One day, he was called into town hall to talk to the Nazi mayor. There he was told that because of his injury he wasn't fit to be a teacher any longer, but if he were a member of the NSDAP, nobody could remove him from his job.
What did he decided, and what were the ramifications of his decision?
Ugg, UA-cam shorts only giving you part one.
Regardless of what his grandfather’s answer was I think his point was that most people would have accepted the offer because that’s what it was at the time, just a national political party. Who wouldn’t have accepted that?
Kira is even complicated on the dynamic levels of her personality (you know, like a real person)
-She’s brilliant at war, but terrible at art
-She’s conservative (small c) in regards to religion and general social morals, but not cloistered or xenophobic or even afraid of social changes
-She can be the angriest most deadly person you’ve ever met, but also quick with a laugh and kindness to those in need or whoever she considers friends (in later episodes that even begrudgingly includes Quark)
Kira Nerys and Benjamin Sisko are from the jump are the most fully realized characters on the show in roles that lesser shows could have easily made 2D tropes (angry lady and beleaguered guy just trying to make a bad situation work)
Kira is one of my favorite Star Trek characters. Nana Visitor played her to perfection.
I'm still making my way through DS9 for the first time, and Kira and Odo are my favorites. The whole cast is incredible, this is already my favorite Trek.
Kira is the best. Her portrayal of someone who grew up under trauma is incredibly well done most of the time, and it's really really good.
She has an amazing arc. I think one of my favorite Kira moments is when she stood in the shadows at the end of season 7 watching Garak and Damar start the Cardassian resistance on the streets of Cardassia. It must have truly been a powerful full circle moment for her. For all the Cardassians she killed. In the end she helped them save their world, face the truth about their past, and find a new path.
I was in my early teens, I think, when I first saw DS9. Kira really stood out to me. She was so unlike any female character I had ever seen before. That first scene between her and Sisko was amazing. Huge respect for Nana for bringing her to life.
Yeah, someone who spent their young adult time savagely fighting against her planet being ruled by a powerful external Cardassian empire isn't automatically going to see the powerful, external Federation empire ruling a space station near her home as something wonderful. The strength of her character is that she's willing to learn and change when this learning is contrary to her previous experience. IRL, few people do this.
That scene is amazing. Kira, as much as she wants Bajor to be able to stand free on its own, knows damned well that in the galaxy as it is, Bajor has zero chance of defending itself from invasion from the Cardassians or any other large hostile power. Intellectually, she knows that having the Federation there is the best way for Bajor to remain free, but she’s going to be damned sure that it’s not going to be a repeat of the Cardassians slithering in and taking over. Ms. Visitor put an amazing amount of nuance into that rant.
I have long maintained that Harris Yulin's performance as Marritza was THE best one-off guest star role in trek. I've heard folks say it's Tom Wright, but the rollercoaster Yulin takes you on is a staggering.
Kira's mother wasnt a collaborator. She came to realize she was doing this for her family not herself. She was a sex slave modeled after "comfort women" during ww2 and other wars.
Hate that episode so much. The writers literally had the actual answer right in front of them when Kira’s mom says why should she keep fighting Dukat if that won’t help her or her family? And she’s absolutely right. And yet the writers still condemn her. It’s very “if you’re not a perfect victim, you’re not a victim”
Kira's complexity doesn't only or primarily come from the her perfidious past, but from her antagonistic role in the present. Obviously the former is connected to the latter, but the tension created by the latter is how her complexity impacts the plot of those episodes discussed in this video. Thanks yet again to Steve for these ST reviews.
The Meru episode is a great episode for contrasting collaborators but I'm surprised you didn't use the one where Kira realized she was a collaborator under the Dominion and had to face the disgust she felt in herself for it.
Yes! Rocks and Shoals. Kira’s realization after the Vedek’s ‘protest’ is one of the most powerful moments in all of DS9 for me; and it was only the B plot!
Yes, I loved Kira. "Our man Bashir" KGB Kira ❤️❤️
That's what KGB stands for; the Kira of State Security.
“…killing a chemist collaborator can’t quell your compassion for Kira, but consider…”
Steve, you beautiful bastard, I see what you did there.
you beat me to this - I too saw what was done here
@@XpndableI don't get it. Is this a reference?
@@laramyelliott2903 No it's alliteration 😂
I had paused the video and started it up several hours later. I was stunned by the amount of alliteration he crammed on there.
Now how is it that I havent watched a single second of star trek media but I thoroughly enjoyed this video.
Kirs Nerys is one of my favorite Star Trek characters and youve pretty much nailed why 💜
One of my favourite things about Kira is how she never turned into a bigot. It would've been so easy for her to just hate all Cardassians because they're Cardassian.
But, as we see with Marritza and Ghemor, she doesn't let what a state and certain individuals change who she is: A good person who did bad things out of necessity.
When I was a kid watching ds9, I still remember how unique it felt to see a character like Kira on tv. Seeing someone, especially a female character, being able to express such a level of complexity felt so impactful to me!
Holy shit that went sidewise at around 15:00. 100% correct on Kira's take. And relevant. Just, damn.
Nice retrospective on Kira, well done. Kira's one of my favorite characters for a number of reasons and you nailed why.
Kudos on the Hardcastle and McCormick joke. And now that theme song will be in my head for the rest of the day...
:) One of the best Star Trek Characters. So many times Major Kira had to bite her tongue and walk away and never was able to catch a break. Such a good character and actress.
One of my favorite things, is when Damar is questioning who could give the orders to kill a resistance fighter's family when that family had nothing to do with the resistance, and Kira reminds him that he and those he worked for did the same thing, and it makes him uncomfortable, because he knows she's right, but doesn't like it.
Kira is a real one , true ride or die
You need grimey soldiers like that in your corner
Necessary Evil is so shocking but it made me enjoy her as character a helluva lot more
The thing about having trouble wrapping your head around this kind of complexity is that even Kira can't really wrap her head around it either. That's the way it is for a lot of people in her situation. My grandma was a resistance fighter in WWII Guam. When studying the Bible, she was able to quit her addictions to smoking, alcohol, and Marines cold turkey. But the trauma of the war and some of the things that she saw and helped with never left her.
And here I am, having feelings from the mere description of a Kira episode. DS9 was so good. A masterclass in storytelling.
“maybe killing a chemist collaborator can’t quell your compassion for Kira, but consider…” - I had to go back and listen to that again! Very nicely put!
Damar, Garak, Sisko, Nog, Rom, Odo... even Quark.
There are some very complex heroes on DS9, but the argument for Kira being at the top of the list is an easy one to understand.
Definitely! And don't forget the serial killer in Dax and the sex pestery and PUA energy of Julian. A lot of rich characters with dangerous, even evil elements in the background.
What I find interesting about Duet is that it's like the play and subsequent movie The Man in the Glass Booth except better. (I have also enjoyed what I take to be the moral of the Kira-Odo relationship, "Crabby people need love too.") Always happy to see a focus on Kira.
It was directly inspired by "The Man in the Glass Booth," which makes it sadly ironic¹ that Steve is so able to draw the parallel here between the Bajor and Gaza.
¹FITTING but ironic-as a (minimally-practicing) Jew I stand in solidarity with Jonathan Glazer.
Steve.. honestly you’re a really intelligent dude. I appreciate that. That is all
Hahahaha! Another home run!
Granted I don’t have a magic time stone to grapple with this stuff, but when you do some research on your military family with 200-ish year in the Deep South, it’s kind of a kick in the teeth if you’re approach it in a way that doesn’t try to sugar-coat your forebears. Like these people maybe have been good parents, grandparents, etc, but it doesn’t make their acts any less monstrous, and the harm they’ve done, any less real to not just generations past, but even people still alive today.
When I researched my family history I wasn't sure for a while which side my ancestors possibly fought on. Though it looks like my father would have been one of the few who actually served in the military at any point.
21:20 An admirable act of alliteration
Kira is one of the best characters ever written for Star Trek and I would even argue for Television. One of the things I love so much about her character is her relationship with her religion. In the episode "Starship Down", Kira, after trying to keep Sisko awake by telling him stories after he suffers a serious concussion, eventually breaks and begs him not to die because he's the Emissary of the Prophets and there's so much he still has to do. She admits that she reveres him and acknowledges she knows that makes him uncomfortable, but that's how she sees him. She's so scared and vulnerable but after a moment, she begins praying. The look of fear drains and it is replaced by a calm, peaceful, hopeful air to her. That is a beautiful representation of how her religion gives her strength. The writers did such a good job showing how religion can be a source of hope and strength for people in Kira, but also the opposite in the form of Wynn (don't even get me started on her!). Most see Kira as a former resistance fighter and rebel, which is true, however she is also a deeply spiritual woman who is not afraid to stand her ground. I absolutely love her character!
So Marritza made a real Darhe'el turn, eh?
[Confession, Steve: I'm not a wrestling fan. I actually kinda hate it. I only knew about the Dusty Rhodes promo because you riffed on it in your Writers Strike video. But I'm struggling with major depression (colonel depression in the final season) and your shout out was a real shot in the arm. So thanks. (I think I just broke kayfabe.)]
I just want to say I felt "colonel depression in the final season" in my soul. Keep those dad jokes popping and it's going to be okay I think. 🖐👍👊
@@sloanekuria3249Thanks! I'm not a dad, either. Ain't that some shit?
Incredible character. I'm surprised it took this long to have an episode about her.
The Darkness and the Light was a meaningful episode for me, as you can see.
When it comes to collaborators/working with for the Cardassians I think it's worth considering the degrees to which a person did aid in the occupation itself. The chemist in question was an informant of Gul Dukat, where as her mother didn't choose to help Dukat and doesn't act against Bajorans. I guess the scenario with her mother is much like Maritza in that regards.
I think Nana Visitor's background as someone who did a lot of work in comedy and Broadway musicals helped her, create a round character. She wasn't afraid to play comedy in a serious role (and even sing on camera).
I wonder if she talked to female officers in developing the Kira character or if it all came from the actress's own experience as a mid-career professional woman?
Love DS9 Content - Kira is one of the most underrated characters in all of Trek, and the strongest first officer in the franchise imo (and I *loved* Riker as a kid).
Kira was also blonde in Dark Angel. 💛❤️🔥💛
Nana Visitor plays a _phenomenal_ villain.
I really appreciate what you did in this one, Steve.
Kira is my favorite Star Trek character (tied with Spock) so I'm glad to see her getting a video
this channel so awesome, sociopolitical content and sci fi. keep up the great work.
15:06 I was waiting for it. Nice 👌
This is a great format Steve! I hope you do this style of video for other DS9 characters.
Comfort women were rape victims not collaborators. Collaborators are volunteers in what they do.
That episode made me fucking hate her.
Meru's supposed collaboration wasn't being a comfort woman; it was defending Dukat as "not such a bad guy" and trying to convince Kira not to kill him.
I would argue she's still not guilty given the extremely narrow list of options she had and the psychological effects of captivity and repeated rape. But it's important to get the nuance. Kira isn't mad her mother was a comfort woman, Kira is mad she made the best of it.
I've got the theory that since Deep Space Nine hit in the 'teen' Star Trek seasons, where we start really getting into the nuanced "grey moralities' where we start questioning "Is this how it should be?" and "Is the Federation right?" here... and the seven years of it sets things up for the "We're On Our Own" Voyager time of college / university.
I really love this concept. It aligns so well with the themes of those shows, and even works for some modern Trek representing adulthood and relatively broad (but not necessarily universal) adult experiences: confronting our trauma (Discovery), wondering about our legacy (Picard), and guiding the next generation (Prodigy).
My father really wanted me to watch Picard season 1 when it came out. I was too busy. He kept asking if I had seen it. I saw it the week after my father died, and immediately realised why he had wanted me to watch it. It is difficult to put the feelings into words. My father was in his 70s, was looking down the barrel of his own mortality, was recently widowed, pandemic left him alone...I got it. I regret not watching it sooner as it was like my dad was trying to convey a message or a feeling. I know Picard is termite but I have a deep love for season 1 for capturing a feeling
Man thats what I love about DS9 and why I think it's one of the best pieces of television ever. All the characters feel like real, well-rounded, morally complex people. Almost no-one is unequivocally a hero. They're almost all villains to someone.
One thing I always feel the need to point out about Duet, and part of why it's one of my favorite episodes, is that the rest of the series proves Marritza at least partially right. I don't know that his execution would have actually forced cardassian to confront its guilt, as he says it would, but he is right that Cardassia doing so would have been not only right but necessary for cardassia to survive. Cardassia never confronts what happened, and in pursuing its gilded past it turns to Dukat, then the Dominion, and the series ends with Cardassia Prime in ruins.
But with a glimmer of redemption and rebirth once Damar acknowledged that their past was filled with wrongs, and led a crusade towards a different world.
Awesome video as usual. I really enjoy your thematic and character analysis videos. They make me think about characters, series, and ideas in a new ways, and I love that. Even when I initially disagree with points or ideas you share, I find myself examining my own thoughts. I’m almost always able to better explain and support my own thoughts, I incorporate some form of yours into an evolved version of my own, or, on occasion, I change my mind entirely.
This is true of your politics and wrestling videos as well. I don’t even watch wrestling and I enjoy the way you discuss the topic.
Kira IMO is the face of Bajorans race as much as Spock is the face of the Vulcans. I'm agnostic, but her faith in the prophets I find most impressive. Her faith isn't ignored by her "gods" and so much so that she was chosen to be her vessel during the reckoning. Her initial distrust of the Federation is understandable because they hardly did anything to free them due to the Prime Directive. She went from hating all Cardassians to having one of them (Ziyal) be like a daughter to her as well as another (Tekeny Ghemor) be like a father to her. Hell, she would grow some respect for Garek.
She had a good character arch.
Steve, I'm an old school TOS fan. Spock is my favorite character of all time, and during my son's childhood we watched TNG together. I can't say that I have a favorite character in that, but eventually I liked the way several members of the cast worked together. I remember when DS9 premiered but I never really gave it a chance back then. I don't know why exactly, but I think it's because at the time I didn't care for the Ferengi, nor did I think I would have enjoyed a futuristic TV show about a stationary space station, even though now my opinion is different. I just want to say that because of you and your channel I finally and recently started watching DS9 for the first time in my life. I started last month and I'm currently on season 4, which started out with a bang! I have to say that the characters have grown on me, and I have a few favorites, including Odo, Garak, and even Quark! I've laughed out loud with several episodes, and I've cried with others---"The Visitor" being one of them of course, and the episode with Kira called "Second Skin" as well. I guess there was a part of me that cried when I saw the relationship between Kira and the Cardassian man that thought she was his daughter. I'm a sucker for father/daughter topics like that since I lost my own when I was 9 years old (cancer sucks!)... The other reason I cried is because I think it's amazing seeing people from two different worlds, races, or species come together. We live in such crappy times now with Americans as well as people from all over the world being pitted against each other for ridiculous reasons. Watching Star Trek and seeing something like that gives me hope. So I just really want to say thank you. I may even give some other shows a shot later on down the road. 😁❤
Duet was hard to watch, especially in the final scenes, seeing Maritza break down. Kira was always my favourite Trek character because of her complexity and depth, I found her inspirational. I still do.
Kira is one of my favorite Star Trek characters. Like you, DS9 is my favorite series. This was an awesome video. Although, your voiceover conversations are a bit different than I remember from the show. 😂
The way they explore some very complex themes in a time that was one or two generations removed from Ww I I is one of the reasons I love DSG so much. More than that Kira is an interesting character. BUt her moral compass and sense of humour makes her endearing.
Young me was absolutely in love with Major Kira Nerys.
Modern me is absolutely in love with Colonel Kira Nerys.
I love that one of the new subscribers named themselves after the home planet of the Slitheen.
I'm finally getting around to listening to this. Your commentary on "Duet" reminded me in a way of Oskar Gruening's trial. Again, it seems that DS9 was well ahead of its time.
My #1 favorite Star Trek character by far. She is the best example of why Deep Space Nine is the best of Trek.
Duet Isn't just my favorite Trek episode. It's been my favorite episode of anything since it originally aired.
I love Kira. So much. And my love for her has only grown as I've gone from early twenties and still feeling like a child, to my mid thirties ( now ) and being exhausted all the goddamn time because *I care* and *caring is exhausting when the problems that face the people you love and care about cannot be fixed with violence and WILL be made worse by lashing out.*
I feel like if I sat down and told Kira my life story, she'd be just as angry as me, but also have the compassion to hold me as I cried in fustration about it all. And thats who I try to be when my friends need someone to talk to- someone who WILL express rage when a friend has been mistreated and give that friend a safe place to be exhausted before they have to jump back into the fray.
I love Kira, and the fact that she is a person who has lived in violence and is still Doing Her Best, and Struggles With That Sometimes, makes me feel stronger in my own life of Trying To My Best after all the shit I've been through.
Btw: missed chance: "Why Major Kira is actually the Deepest Space Nine Character"
Kira is my all-time favorite Trek character. Thank you for this.
In "Duet" I think we see an example of a true patriot. Marritza loves Cardassia. Not blindly adores, genuinely loves. Because he sees the wrong they have done and wants Cardassia to atone for it, to be *better.* When people say "my country, right or wrong", they're forgetting the other half of that quote: if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.
Marritza wanted to set Cardassia right. Because he loved Cardassia, more than Dukat could ever dream of.
If you want to talk about complicated science fiction characters, I'm rewatching Babylon 5, and whoa, Londo and G'Kar take the cake for complicated.
Kira has always been my favorite DS9 character. A large part of that is due to her complexity and her complicated nature. Nana Visitor portrays her with such emotion. I remember being in tears as an 8th grader watching "Duet". I felt for Kira and her genuine sorrow at the end of the episode. My parents didn't get why I was crying over TV, but for me, especially at that time of my life, Trek was my sanity and safe place, and gods, did I want to be like Kira. Seeing her negative qualities along with her positive ones, and seeing that she could have done so much that people would consider wrong and still be considered one of "the good guys" was an eye-opener for young teen me. DS9 is full of characters I looked up to and found comfort in, but Kira was always the one I wanted to be like.
A DS9 deep dive character study? What a treat, can't wait
Sure, Kira's the only one who killed someone because they caught her burglarising their place of business, but Sisko's the only one who made an entire planet uninhabitable due to a grudge.
Tomato, tomato.
And Garak's the only one who killed an innocent Romulan Senator to help win a war . . . nah, I've got nothing.
21:22, I’m not letting the beautiful alliteration here go unacknowledged🤩
THANK YOU for making a distinction between "complex" and "complicated."
I've been making the case for YEARS that "complex" means that something has multiple layers simultaneously visible, while "complicated" is more akin to a Rube Goldberg machine. The synonym for "complex" is not "complicated." It's "concise." The synonym for "complicated" is not "complex." It's "unwieldy." "Complex" usually has a positive connotation and "complicated" tends to have a negative connotation.
A bit of a nitpick, but concise would be the opposite of complex.. Concise would be brief and to the point, complex wouldn't be brief or to the point. Like in a nice-friendly StarTrek fan-kinda way, I'm not meaning to be a dick whatsoever.
Phenomenal video!!! Please, more DS9!!!!!
14:57 I see what you did there. Well said.
My friend who got me to watch DS9 and VOY was convinced Dax would be my favorite character. It was Kira. It's still Kira. It's always Kira.
As an Italian, I have no problem with Kira's actions. Many Italians turned into freedom fighters to fight the Nazi and the Fascists during WWII. It wasn't always morally spotless but they did the right and necessary thing.
Ds9 did a lot for television storytelling.
Same with Babylon 5.
Yeah. The characters in DS-9 are super good. They really worked to develop the characters that needed it the most. Heck! even the cartoon villains of the dominion get some mild hints at a larger backstory with some unexpected development.
Good vid. Per usual. Thanks for being here
To me "Duet" is where DS9 hit it's stride and never looked back!
Wonderful overview.
Another great job! Thank you!
Great video😊